Rep. Bass: We have to find a way to hold police officers accountable (Graphic Warning)
Rep. Karen Bass, D-Calif., discusses police reform and the shooting of Ma'Khia Bryant in Columbus, Ohio.
This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," April 25, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.
The police officer who killed George Floyd has been convicted of murder,
but the jury is still out on whether it will inspire change.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We feel a sigh of
relief. Still, it cannot take away the pain.
WALLACE (voice-over): Police reform proposals in Congress take on new
urgency after Derek Chauvin is convicted.
(CHANTING)
WALLACE: As a string of police-involved shootings across the nation stoke
outrage in America's streets.
And the White House pushes both parties to work on a compromise.
BIDEN: We also need Congress to act but it shouldn't take a whole year to
get this done.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Yes, police reform is possible in this
partisan environment, but the more you challenge all of us in our
character, the harder it is to get something get done.
WALLACE: We'll talk with Republican Senator Lindsey Graham who, along with
Senator Tim Scott, has taken the GOP lead on the issue. And get reaction
from Congresswoman Karen Bass, the key player on police reform for House
Democrats.
Then, President Biden prepares for his first address to Congress as the
country faces the coronavirus pandemic, economic recovery, and a crisis at
the border. We'll sit down with House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy,
only on "FOX News Sunday."
Plus, we'll bring in our Sunday panel for a look at new FOX polls on the
president's first 100 days.
And this show marks 25 years of history-making interviews.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: I frankly don't give a damn about the
polls.
WALLACE: Can you give me direct answer you will accept the election?
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: I have to see.
WALLACE: We'll bring you highlights from the past quarter century.
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE (on camera): And hello again from FOX News in Washington.
For the past 25 years, we've been asking the key players from D.C. and
beyond how their policies and actions shape our lives. And while we will
celebrate our anniversary a little later, today is no different. President
Biden marks his own milestones this week. On Wednesday, he will address a
joint session of Congress for the first time. A day later, he will mark his
100th day in office.
Ahead of that, we have new FOX News poll's on the state of his presidency.
When it comes to job performance, 54 percent approve of how Mr. Biden is
doing while 43 percent disapprove. To compare, Barack Obama had 62 percent
job approval at his hundred day mark and George W. Bush was at 63 percent,
but Mr. Biden is doing better than the 45 percent approval Donald Trump had
four years ago. We'll have more polls later this hour.
But first, Congress is trying again to reform the nation's policing laws in
the wake of the guilty verdict in the murder of George Floyd. In a moment
we will talk with Democrat's Congresswoman Karen Bass, sponsor of the
George Floyd Justice in Policing Act.
But we begin with Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who's working with
fellow South Carolina Senator Tim Scott on a compromise.
Senator Graham, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Happy anniversary. Thank you.
WALLACE: Thank you.
What are the chances that we are going to see a compromise on police reform
before May 25th, the first anniversary of George Floyd's murder? And how
far are you and other Republicans prepared to go on lifting the immunity
for police officers and lowering the standard for prosecutions?
GRAHAM: Well, number one, we'd have had police reform in the last Congress
but Chuck Schumer and Kamala Harris made a conscious effort to block Tim
Scott's reform bill. They filibustered Tim Scott's bill because they didn't
want Tim Scott and President Trump to get credit for it. There's no reason
we shouldn't have done it last time. We'll try again.
Qualified immunity is a very big deal. If you want to destroy policing in
America, make sure that every cop can be sued when they leave the house.
So there's a way to find qualified immunity reform, take the cop out of it.
My idea, along with Senator Scott, is you can't sue the police officer, you
sue the department if there's an allegation of civil rights abuse or
constitutional rights abuse.
We can solve that problem. We can solve the issues if there's will to get
there and I think there is will to get their own part of both parties know.
WALLACE: So you think is a pretty good chance by May 25th you'll have a
deal?
GRAHAM: Yeah, qualified immunity -- yeah, I hope so. Tim is the leader on
this. His package is bipartisan. Qualified immunity is a problem and I've
been working with Senator Whitehouse.
It's a pretty simple solution: don't sue the police officer, sue the police
department so the cop doesn't have to worry about losing his house and his
entire -- you know, car and everything else that comes with being a police
officer.
WALLACE: Senator, after Derek Chauvin was convicted of murder this week,
President Biden said this.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was a murder in full
light of day and it ripped the blinders off for the whole world to see. And
this takes acknowledging and confronting head on systemic racism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Senator, is there systemic racism in this country in policing and
in other institutions?
GRAHAM: No, not in my opinion. We just elected a two-term African-American
president. The vice president is of African-American-Indian descent. So our
systems are not racist. America is not a racist country.
Within every society, you have bad actors. The Chauvin trial was a just
result. What's happening in Ohio where the police officer had to use deadly
force to prevent a young girl from being stabbed to death is a different
situation in my view.
So this attack on police and policing -- reform the police, yes, call them
all racist, no. You know, America is a work in progress but best -- best
place on the planet and Joe Biden spent a lot of time running the place
down. I wish he would stop it.
WALLACE: We are coming up this week on Joe Biden's 100th day in office. As
you know, of course, he's going to get that big speech to Congress.
You have said this week --
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: -- that you believe that Biden's campaign was a fraud on the
country because of how differently he is governing.
But during the campaign, Senator, he did talk about big changes in
infrastructure and racial inequality and a number of other issues. So, why
was -- why is it a fraud?
GRAHAM: Well, during the campaign, he made us all believe that Joe Biden
would be the moderate choice, that he really -- that court packing was a
bonehead idea. All of a sudden, we got a commission to change the structure
of the Supreme Court, making D.C. a state. I think that's a very radical
idea that will change the makeup of the United States Senate.
AOC said his first 100 days exceeded her expectations. That's all you need
to know.
I like Joe Biden, but I'm in the 43 percent. He's been a disaster on
foreign policy.
The border is in chaos. The Iranians are off the mat. He's opening up
negotiations with the Iranian regime that they haven't done a damn to
change. Afghanistan is going to fall apart. Russia and China are pushing us
-- already pushing him around.
So I'm very worried. I think he's been a very destabilizing president. And
economically, he's throwing a wet blanket over the recovery, wanting to
raise taxes in a large amount and regulate America basically out of
business.
So I'm not very impressed with the first 100 days. This is not what I
thought I would get from Joe Biden.
WALLACE: I want to pick up on one of your last points there. You say that
you believe that this president and Democrats in Congress have been
involved in a power grab, but I think they would push back by saying, look,
we passed COVID relief without a single Republican vote in either the House
or the Senate.
And as we talk now about infrastructure and social programs that the
president is proposing, would you, or do you know of any Republican who
would support paying for that by raising taxes on either corporations or
the wealthy?
GRAHAM: Well, I don't think the pay-fors that they have are going to sell
to the Republican Party but if you want some good news on the 25th
anniversary of your show, there's probably an $800 billion and $900 billion
infrastructure bill that we could all agree on. Joe Manchin has a pay-for.
I'm not going to raise corporate taxes to 28 percent. At the end of the
day, I'm willing to not pay for some of the infrastructure spending because
I think it over time pays for itself. We're not going to do a couple
trillion dollars, 85 percent of it has got nothing to do with
infrastructure.
But I think there's a bipartisan compromise coming about. Watch Joe
Manchin. Joe is going to be a key player here. I met with him a couple of
days ago.
I think there's a sweet spot an infrastructure or we can find pay-fors that
won't hurt the economy. If you raise taxes now, you're going to destroy
jobs.
WALLACE: I got less than a minute left here, Senator. But you say -- Joe
Manchin is talking about raising corporate taxes not to 28 percent, but
from 21 percent to 25. The Republican plan doesn't have any tax increases
in it.
GRAHAM: Right, right.
WALLACE: Are you willing to go for a corporate tax increase to 25 percent?
GRAHAM: I'm going to talk to Joe about it. I want to make sure it doesn't
hurt the economy. We're competing with the world writ large. A lot of the
money we spent for COVID had nothing to do with COVID that is unspent. We
can direct some of that to infrastructure.
This $1.9 trillion package we talked about didn't get one Republican vote
because it was just unrelated to COVID, most of it, and six bills were
passed bipartisan before Biden came in. So there is a willingness to be
bipartisan on COVID, but it's got to be related to COVID.
So, yes, there is a deal to be done on infrastructure, I think.
WALLACE: Senator Graham, thank you. Thanks for your time, always good to
speak with you. You've been a good friend to this show. Thank you, sir.
GRAHAM: Thank you, sir. Thank you.
WALLACE: And joining us now here in Washington, Congresswoman Karen Bass
of California.
Congresswoman, welcome back.
REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): Thank you. Thanks for having me and happy
anniversary.
WALLACE: Thank you. You just heard the conversation with Senator Graham
and I want to focus in on this point that he emphasized on police reform.
He and Senator Scott say they are willing to compromise on lifting
immunity, but not for the individual police officer, lifting immunity so
that -- this is a civil suit, we're not talking about criminal implications
here, you could sue the police department.
And the argument is look, the money isn't with the individual cop, it's
with the police officer and if there's a bad cop, the department will get
rid of them anyway. Would you be willing to go for that on immunity, sue
the police department, not the officer?
BASS: Well, let me tell you first of all, we're going to have to negotiate
that, but the intent of this is we have to find a way to hold officers
accountable so this type of behavior ends.
You said, well, if the officer was bad, he'd get fired anyway. Well,
actually a lot of the time that's not the case. For example, Derek Chauvin
had multiple complaints against him. As a matter fact, after he is
convicted, there's an investigation or considering an investigation on
previous abuse.
WALLACE: But are you willing to blow up this deal over that issue?
BASS: I don't know if I'm willing to blow up the deal, I don't consider
that blowing it up, but we do have to look at ways.
Now, if Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott can show us some other way to hold
officers accountable -- because this has been going on for just decades and
officers right now are not really held accountable.
Let me give you an example. In Minneapolis, for instance, if Chauvin had
not been convicted, even though he was fired, do you know that he could go
through arbitration and that police chief has no ability not to rehire him?
So we have got to figure out how to stop this and holding officers
accountable is key. So --
WALLACE: I want to -- I want to -- excuse me. I want to turn to another
part of our conversation. You heard Senator Graham's answer about systemic
racism in this country.
BASS: Yes.
WALLACE: And he says there isn't and then that continuing to talk about
this is running the country down.
BASS: Well --
WALLACE: Your response.
BASS: -- my response is at some point in our country's history we have got
to figure out a way to talk about race where we can talk about it
objectively and people don't feel individual guilt.
You can look back at our history's laws and over time there were many laws
that were put in place that were absolutely racist and over time those laws
might have changed, but the conditions haven't changed.
You can look at each of our institutions. Why is there such massive
inequality when it comes to education, when it comes to health care? Why
does that exist? And so we have to figure out a way to talk about it. Right
now to say it doesn't exist does not help anyone.
WALLACE: I want to finish by taking a look, along with you, at the police
shooting this week of 16-year-old Ma'Khia Bryant. Here's the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Hey, hey. Get down, get down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Now, the police video makes it clear -- take a look right there,
Congresswoman -- she was wielding a knife and when the police officer shot
her she was about to stab that girl right next to the car and yet here is
how White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki responded to the shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We know that police violence
disproportionately impacts black and Latino people in communities, and that
black women and girls, like black men and boys, experience higher rates of
police violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Congresswoman, wasn't there a knee-jerk reaction in this country
-- you heard it from Jen Psaki, you heard from a lot of other people --
police violence, when in fact this wasn't police violence, this was officer
Reardon shooting, intervening to save the life of the girl who was about to
be stabbed.
BASS: Well, let me just say that oftentimes when this happens, absolutely
there's an emotional reaction, but what Jen Psaki said I agree with whether
it applies to this case or not I think is not the issue.
You also had Adam Toledo, 13-year-old child. You know he had a gun, he
dropped it, he raised his hands --
WALLACE: But don't we need to be able to distinguish between cases --
BASS: We --
WALLACE: -- between --
BASS: Yes --
WALLACE: -- Derek Chauvin, that was murder, and this, which looks to me
like a righteous shooting?
BASS: We absolutely need to distinguish but we also need to look at
policing overall. And one of the things that I hope we really address is
maybe the focus needs to be on de-escalation.
I know police officers are taught to shoot to kill. A lot of people raise,
well, why couldn't he have shot her in the leg, why couldn't he have done
all these different things? The point is we have got to come up with a way
to stop -- there are so many people being killed in this country.
WALLACE: Congresswoman --
BASS: So de-escalation and looking at the root causes of the problem.
WALLACE: Congresswoman Bass, thank you. Thanks for coming in and we'll be
following talks that we hope will lead to a compromise on police reform in
the next month. Thank you --
BASS: I believe it will.
WALLACE: Up next, we'll sit down with House Republicans Leader Kevin
McCarthy on the president's first 100 days and Mr. Biden's big speech to
Congress this week.
And throughout the hour, a look back at some of the biggest moments of our
25 years here on "FOX News Sunday".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: I have here the indictment that was presented on Friday from the
Special Counsel Robert Mueller. You smile, let me finish. May give this to
you to look at, sir? Here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: The 100 day mark of a presidency gives the country a good look at
the new administration's priorities. President Biden reaches that milestone
this week and he'll address a joint session of Congress for the first time.
Now, another FOX News poll.
When it comes to the job -- president's job performance dealing with top
issues, his best ratings come on handling the coronavirus, 58 percent
approve while 34 percent disapprove. Her -- his marks are positive, but
lower on the economy, 48 percent to 42. And his worst numbers come on
immigration, where folks disapproved by an 18-point margin, 52 percent to
34.
And joining us now, the top Republican in the House, Kevin McCarthy.
Congressman, welcome back to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Well, thank you
and congratulations on 25 years. What an accomplishment.
WALLACE: Thank you. Thank you.
How do you rate President Biden's first 100 days in office, and will you,
or do you think will any Republicans, support his plan for trillions of
dollars in new spending and new taxes for infrastructure and social
programs?
MCCARTHY: Well, first, if I look at the hundred days, it's more like a
bait and switch. The bait was, he was going to govern as bipartisan. But
the switch is, he's governed as a socialist.
If you're looking at infrastructure, it's the same as the coronavirus, less
than 9 percent went to the virus. Less than 6 percent in the infrastructure
goes to infrastructure.
Republicans would be the first one that would work with him. But I think
the very first thing we would need to do, define what infrastructure is,
roads, bridges, airports, Broadcom. We would get this done. And he's trying
to pick a number instead of first saying, what do we need to make America
competitive?
WALLACE: But, according to the FOX News poll, and I want to put another
one up, Republicans are on the losing side of both of these issues. Take a
look at this. And I understand your point about what is infrastructure.
When asked about the president's $2 trillion -- and we put it up there, $2
trillion infrastructure plan, 49 percent favor it while 41 percent oppose.
And on how to pay for it, 56 percent favor raising taxes on businesses,
while 63 percent favor raising taxes on people earning over $400,000.
Don't Republicans risk looking like you are more concerned about protecting
corporations and fat cats?
MCCARTHY: No, because what you'll see is -- you say the public likes the
coronavirus bill. When they learn more what's in it, when they learn about
the waste, the fraud, the abuse, the corruption, that San Francisco gets 90
percent of all their deficit taken care of and they spend that money for
the homeless to get drugs, marijuana, now --
WALLACE: But we don't know that yet.
MCCARTHY: No, no, that's exactly what it's going for in the coronavirus
bill that you just passed. And you're saying its popular there.
WALLACE: Well, so -- but -- but -- well, wait a minute, I mean supposedly
it's going to take care of first responders and result is they could use
money for other things.
MCCARTHY: No, no, it takes 95 percent.
We want schools to open. Kids have been out of school for a year. Two-
thirds of this money for schools doesn't even go until two more years. It
pays for the health care for illegal immigrants. It gives -- it gives
prisoners stimulus (INAUDIBLE).
WALLACE: But -- but respond to my -- respond to -- to the issue that I
brought up in the poll --
MCCARTHY: Yes.
WALLACE: Which is, people --
MCCARTHY: People --
WALLACE: Not surprisingly say, hey, if you're supporting -- if you're
going to tax big corporations, if you're going to tax people making more
money than I am, I'm OK with it.
MCCARTHY: I think what people want is fairness of the tax code. And think
about what they're really looking at. You just ask them, do they support
infrastructure? America says yes. But I think what America found out, just
6 percent is going to the roads, that they're not going to be built for
more than a decade, that we spend more on subsidizing electric car than we
do on roads, bridges and airports in this bill, I don't think that will be
popular. But what we should read in that is that we should work together.
In your same poll it would say to a two to one margin, the American public
wants this president to work with the Republicans find a solution. We're
going to hit 100 days. I have not met with the president one time nor had
one conversation with him. We have a crisis at a border that he created.
The person he put in charge, the vice president, hasn't even been down to
see it. She thinks the idea is to have a Zoom call with the president of
Mexico and pay people to plant trees on the other side. That's not going to
stop those on the terrorist watch list we've arrested or the cartels for
making our border less secure.
WALLACE: Let's talk about the state of the GOP, your party.
MCCARTHY: Yes.
WALLACE: Here is former President George W. Bush on that subject this
week.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you were to describe the Republican Party as you
see it today --
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How would you describe it?
BUSH: I would describe it as isolationist, protectionist and to a certain
extent nativist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Now, President Bush backed off -- I know, he backed off a little
bit later and he said, there are loud voices in the Republican Party who
are protectionist, isolationist and nativist. He's talking about the Trump
wing of the Republican Party.
MCCARTHY: Well, I think, let's look at the last election. Even -- even
your own station said we were going to lose seats in the last election.
It's the first time since 1994 in the House no Republican incumbent lost.
But we beat 15 Democrats. And every single Democrat lost to a Republican
woman or a Republican minority. We've elected more women in the last
election than any time within the Republican Party. We won from Miami to
L.A.
So, to say that, I think, President Bush has walked that back. It doesn't
reflect what's happening in Congress today. Are there some voices off? Yes,
and we stand up to those. But are we having a new voice growing, a Young
Kim, Michelle Steel, Maria Salazar, Tony Gonzales? Yes, this party is
expanding to reflect America and will continue to do that in the next --
WALLACE: So when Marjorie Taylor Greene says what she says, when Paul
Gosar says what he says?
MCCARTHY: If they say something that's wrong, then -- look what I put out
when I read what the -- the caucus they wanted to create and what it stood
for. I didn't sit back. We denounced it and it did not move forward.
WALLACE: All right, during the Trump impeachment in February --
MCCARTHY: Yes.
WALLACE: During the trial in the Senate, a Republican congresswoman said
this. I want to put it up on the screen.
She said that while the January 6th riot was in full force, you phoned
President Trump and ask him to call off his supporters. And according to
you, she said, the president responded, well, Kevin, I guess these people
are more upset about the election then you are.
Is she right? Is that what President Trump said to you?
MCCARTHY: What I talked to President Trump about, I was the first person
to contact him when the riots was going on. He didn't see it. What he ended
the call was saying -- telling me, he'll put something out to make sure to
stop this. And that's what he did, he put a video out later.
WALLACE: Quite a lot later. And it was a pretty weak video.
But I'm asking you specifically, did he say to you --
MCCARTHY: No, that's not --
WALLACE: I guess some people are more concerned about the election then
you are?
MCCARTHY: No, listen, my conversations with the president are my
conversations with the president. I engaged in the idea of making sure we
could stop what was going on inside the Capitol at that moment in time. The
president said he would help.
WALLACE: I want to ask you a specific question about this, because there
have been and are continuing to be investigations of what happened on
January 6th. We'll talk about the commission in a minute.
Has the president ever reached out to you, since that report came out, to
discuss what you and he talked about in the January 6th phone call? And did
you say to him, I can't because we're under oath?
MCCARTHY: No.
WALLACE: That never happened?
MCCARTHY: Never happened.
WALLACE: And you would --
MCCARTHY: Never even close.
WALLACE: And -- and if it did happen, you would agree that would be
witness tampering?
MCCARTHY: Yes, but it never happened. Never even came close. Never had any
conversation like that.
WALLACE: OK.
MCCARTHY: Never even heard that rumor before until today.
WALLACE: Speaker Pelosi has caved on several -- wait, let me finish.
MCCARTHY: I haven't seen her cave on much.
WALLACE: She has caved on several issues involving the January 6th special
committee. She now says, yes, equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats,
yes, bipartisan support for any subpoena that is issued.
Are you willing to take yes for an answer and sign up for the January 6th
special committee?
MCCARTHY: You say she has. I've never had one conversation about this.
And January 13th I proposed a 9/11 Commission with what happened on January
6th. To have equal number of Republican and Democrats. Same subpoena. Don't
start with any findings or ideas. Let the facts take to where you are.
Since Good Friday we just had Officer Evans killed in the Capital. For the
last year we've had political violence across this country and in this
city. I think we should look at all of that. But she's never once had a
conversation with myself or Leader Mitch McConnell.
WALLACE: But I want -- let me just finish up on this question of the scope
--
MCCARTHY: Yes.
WALLACE: Because when the Benghazi committee to investigate the -- the --
the murder of those four American diplomats in Benghazi, Libya, back in
2012 happened, the Republican set it up, John Boehner, and it was
completely confined to discussing what happened in the Benghazi murder. It
wasn't about problems in the Middle East.
Why not confine this committee -- it's a big deal -- to what happened on
January 6th, when you had this insurrection at the Capitol?
MCCARTHY: You had an insurrection at the Capitol. You -- you've had
political violence for the last year in this building. You had a Good
Friday, an officer killed for political belief right on that Capitol as
well. If you're now going to put a commission together, why wouldn't you
look at all the problems to solve?
WALLACE: So will -- you won't agree to a commission unless it's -- has
that broader scope?
MCCARTHY: I'm the one who asked for a commission. It's Speaker Pelosi
whose been trying to make it partisan.
WALLACE: But I'm asking, would you accept a commission that's focused on
the riot at the Capitol?
MCCARTHY: This is -- this is too important to negotiate in the press and
not sit down with the other leaders and walk through to solve this problem
for the American public. I think that's what they --
WALLACE: I've got to ask.
MCCARTHY: Well, you know -- you know --
(LAUGHTER)
WALLACE: Leader McCarthy, thank you. Thanks for your time. Please come
back. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, sir.
MCCARTHY: Thank you and congratulation on 25 years.
WALLACE: Thank you.
Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss those new FOX polls and
what they say about the Biden presidency so far as "FOX News Sunday"
celebrates 25 years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Why didn't your administration take out the Iranian nuclear
program?
DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: It wasn't my decision to make.
WALLACE: Would you have favored military action?
CHENEY: I was probably a bigger advocate of military action than any of my
colleagues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Coming up, for the past 25 years, we've
held to account the people who run Washington and the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: You don't think there's any legitimate reason people would have
doubts about your -- to use the phrase in the polls -- honesty and
trustworthiness?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: That and more as FOX NEWS SUNDAY marks a quarter century.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (January 20, 2021): We can see
each other not as adversaries but as neighbors. We can treat each other
with dignity and respect. We can join forces, stop the shouting and lower
the temperature, for without unity, there is no peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: President Biden on Inauguration Day calling for unity and
bipartisanship.
And it's time now for our Sunday group.
Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume, Julie Pace, Washington bureau
chief for the Associated Press, and Fox News political analyst Juan
Williams.
I think we will all agree that there has not been the wave of
bipartisanship and unity that Joe Biden called for in his inaugural
address. The question is, is there somebody who's more responsible than the
other to blame for it? And we asked this in the Fox poll. By a slim margin
of 45 percent to 42, folks said Mr. Biden has made an effort to work with
the GOP. But by a big -- much bigger margin, 53 percent to 30 percent, they
said Republicans have not worked with this president.
Brit, do you think that's fair?
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't for the simple reason
that Joe Biden, while he said during the campaign that he would perhaps be
the most progressive president ever, he also made all those noises like the
ones you could hear in that sound bite you played that suggested that he
would definitely be prepared to sit down with Republicans and reach common
ground on things, which he manifestly has not done. He has governed so far,
not just from the near left, but pretty much from the far left. I mean he
is out there. And Republicans, obviously, are not coming toward that stuff.
And, you know, you heard in Kevin -- when Kevin McCarthy said, you remember
the proposal that -- the proposal that the GOP senators made on the -- on
the COVID bill, which went nowhere. So I think, you know, we'll see. But --
but I don't -- I don't think there's a case to be made that -- that he's
been, you know, as a centrist reaching out to Republicans at all.
WALLACE: Juan -- Juan, let's look at the record because, as Brit points
out, as Kevin McCarthy pointed out, the president and Democrats rammed
through $1.9 trillion in COVID relief on a straight party line vote.
They're now talking about, I guess when you all add it up, more than $3
trillion in infrastructure and social spending. And I think the default
position is that they're going to do the same thing again through
reconciliation and a straight party line vote. Is that bipartisanship?
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I think you have to make a
distinction here, Chris, between Republicans in Congress and Republican
voters. If you look at the COVID relief plan, Republican voters support it
in polls. If you look at infrastructure spending, right now for the lion
share of that, Republicans support it. If you look at immigration reform,
Republicans support it. They wanted it to happen.
So even as Republican voters support much of President Biden's plan, he has
unified voters across political lines, but what he has not unified has been
Republicans in Congress. They have reverted to the kind of obstruction
tactics that they used against Clinton when he was trying to save the
economy back in '93, against Obama in '09 when he was facing the economic
collapse.
WALLACE: Right.
WILLIAMS: So I think there's a big distinction between Republican
politicians and Republican voters in terms of unity. I think that's why, in
a time of extreme polarization, Biden's numbers are pretty good, 52, 54
percent approval.
WALLACE: Julie, the biggest surprise for me about President Biden is not
his policies, whether he's near left or far left. The biggest surprise for
me are his ambitions.
During the campaign, he talked about being a bridge to future Democrats, in
effect being a transitional president. It seems to me, looking at these
hundred days, he's been a transformational -- or tried to be a
transformational president, much more so than -- than Obama, more so than
Bill Clinton, more in -- in the -- following the footsteps of FDR and LBJ.
JULIE PACE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS": I think you're
right about that and I think that is a surprise when you look at some of
the rhetoric from the campaign trail where he did talk about being this
bridge figure where he certainly was positioning himself as more of a
centrist than people like Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders.
I think in some ways this is a situation where his presidency is trying to
meet the moment. He certainly stepped into the White House at a time when
he was facing multiple crises on multiple fronts and I think that that has
reshaped the agenda. I think also he is taking some real lessons that he
feels like he learned from serving as Obama's number two in terms of how
ambitious you need to be at the start. He knows very well that as a
president your runway is pretty short in terms of getting big legislation
done. And so while we're seeing big, grand ambitions right now, he knows
that when he looks six, eight months down the road, when he looks into his
second year of his presidency, all of those get a lot harder.
So I think it will be interesting to compare the posture that he's taking
right now in his first hundred days, his first couple months to where he is
next year.
WALLACE: Brit, I want to go back to our Fox News poll's one more time.
How do you view border security as compared to two years ago, two years
prior to that? In 2018, only 17 percent of those surveyed said it had
gotten worse over those two years. Now, 46 percent say that it's gotten
worse over the past two years.
Brit, is that Joe Biden's biggest problem 100 days in, how he's handled the
borders of ours?
HUME: Well, I think it's the most conspicuous failure, Chris, because the
situation on the border has been pretty calmed -- pretty much calmed down
during the latter stages of the Trump presidency. And suddenly now it's a
major big deal again, owing to actions that the president took. I -- he
know -- he just basically overthrew the set of policies and practices that
-- that the president, President Trump, had put in place and the result is
what you see and -- and it's -- you know, it's there for all to see and for
all their -- all their quibbling over whether you call it a crisis or not,
people can see that it's a hell of a mess and he's paying the price for
that in terms of what people think of how he's done on the issue. I think
it's, you know, sort of -- sort of obvious and inevitable.
WALLACE: Juan, I need a quick answer from you here, is it a heal of a mess
at the border and is it a self-inflicted mess by President Biden and the
changes he's made in border policy?
HUME: I don't think there's any question it's a problem, Chris. I think the
president was responding to what he viewed as inhumane policies, you know,
separating children from parents and the like. The only silver lining for
Biden is it's happening now, not in his second year as midterms approach.
WALLACE: And -- and, Julie, you cover the -- the White House beat, the
Washington beats for the Associated Press. What's your sense from talking
to your sources of the White House? Do they have any idea how to get ahead
of this or to get a handle on the situation at the border?
PACE: I think the most vexing problem that they face right now in trying to
get around this is a perception issue. Biden is out there, Harris is out
there saying that the policy changes that they made at the start of this
administration should not be interpreted as an open invitation for
families, unaccompanied children to arrive at the border. But the
perception is the opposite in a lot of these central American countries.
And so how they get around that, how they try to message this, how they try
to stem the flow the migrants to the border is something that they don't
have a solution for right now.
WALLACE: I was going to ask you, I mean, so they know they've got the
problem. You know, we could -- all we have to do is see those videos, all
we have to do is see the -- the customs and Border Patrol members, tens of
thousands, hundreds of thousands.
How do they get a handle on this and wouldn't one way to be to -- to
reverse -- and I know the politics of this -- to reverse the Trump order
and say, you know what, if you're an unaccompanied minor, you can't stay in
the country?
PACE: And I don't think you should hold your breath for that policy
reversal on that front, in part because of the politics and in part because
I think Biden just believes in these policies. But it does then leave them
in this situation where the policies are being interpreted in a different
way than Biden is describing them.
WALLACE: All right, panel, we're going to have to take a break here.
Julie, thank you. We've always -- we love having you on the show.
Brit and Juan, as two of the originals, we're going to bring you back at
the end of the program to take a look back at this last quarter century.
But up next, you don't want to miss the highlights from the past 25 years
on FOX NEWS SUNDAY. It has been quite a ride.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE (May 2013): Could people like Bob Dole, even Ronald Reagan, could
you make it in today's Republican Party?
BOB DOLE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I doubt it. And I -- Reagan
couldn't have made it. Certainly Nixon couldn't have made it because he had
ideas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: In the 25 years since this program came on the air, Washington has
lived through a century's worth of news. We've seen three impeachments, the
terror of 9/11, the steady decline of old-fashioned bipartisanship, the
rise of social media, and the dawn, and at least for now, the dusk of the
Trump era. It's been a fascinating journey and we thought you might enjoy
looking back with us at some of the twists and turns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE (December 2004): I'm Chris Wallace and this is FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
WALLACE (voice over): Fifty-two weeks a year for 25 years, some 1,300
episodes.
First, it was Tony Snow.
TONY SNOW, FORMER FOX NEWS SUNDAY ANCHOR (April 1996): Hi, I'm Tony Snow
and welcome to the beginning of something new.
WALLACE (on camera): Senator, let me follow up on that.
WALLACE (voice over): Then, for the last 17 and a half years, I took over,
trying every week to get newsmakers from Washington and beyond off their
carefully-scripted talking points
WALLACE (February 2005): In Dr. Rice's, Condoleezza Rice's confirmation
hearings, you had some blunt advice for her.
Let's watch.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (January 19, 2005): And for God's
sake, don't listen to Rumsfeld, he doesn't know what in the hell he's
talking about on this.
WALLACE (January 19, 2005): Classic Biden. And afterward, as you were
saying goodbye to Dr. Rice, you told her she shouldn't listen to Vice
President Cheney either.
My question, Senator Biden, is, why not?
BIDEN: Because they've been wrong on every major decision relative to Iraq
since the statute came down.
WALLACE (July 2012): What specifically are you going to do to provide
universal coverage to the 30 million people who are uninsured?
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY) (July 2012): That -- that is not the issue.
We're not going to turn the American health --
WALLACE: You don't think the 30 million people who were uninsured is an
issue?
WALLACE (voice over): I even interviewed Tony when he became Bush 43's
White House press secretary.
WALLACE (April 2006): Over the seven plus years, is there one show, one
Sunday that stands out?
SNOW (April 2006): Right after September 11th.
The United States had a spirit (ph) before it had a name. One of faith and
freedom, of ambition tempered by piety. We once were a nation of neighbors
and friends. We are again today.
WALLACE (voice over): And, in 2008 we paid tribute to Tony when we lost
him.
WALLACE (July 2008): Tony is being remembered by current and former
presidents, by congressional leaders and also by millions of people around
the nation who followed his remarkable career and his courageous battle
with cancer.
WALLACE (voice over): We sat down with presidents.
WALLACE (on camera): Do think there's ever been, and I say this, quite
frankly, thinking of my father and me, ever been a sense of competition,
him with you or you with him?
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You hear it, but there isn't any
such competition. And I don't think he's ever felt it.
WALLACE (September 2006): Why didn't you do more to put bin Laden and al
Qaeda out of business when you were president?
BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (September 2006): I think it's very
interesting that all the conservative Republicans who now say I didn't do
enough claim that I was too obsessed with bin Laden.
WALLACE: Do you think you did enough, sir?
CLINTON: No, because I didn't get him.
WALLACE: Right.
CLINTON: But at least I tried. That's the difference in me and some.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (February 2008): I frankly don't give
a damn about the polls. And I darn sure don't, you know, call a group of
people together in a focus group and say, well, tell me what to think.
WALLACE (April 2016): Has it been a tough job? Has aged you?
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (April 2016): Obviously I've gotten
older. The degree to which every part of you is tested and engaged, that
keeps you young.
WALLACE (July 2020): Can you give a direct answer, you will accept the
election?
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (July 2020): Have to see. Look, you --
I have to see.
WALLACE (on camera): So what is the best part of being the president of
France?
WALLACE (voice over): We traveled the world to interview American allies
and adversaries.
WALLACE (July 2018): Why is it that so many of the people that oppose
Vladimir Putin end up dead or close to it?
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator) (July 2018): Well,
first of all, all of us have plenty of political rivals. I'm pretty sure
President Trump has plenty of political rivals.
WALLACE: But they don't end up dead.
WALLACE (voice over): We got to talk with some of the biggest stars.
DOLLY PARTON, MUSICIAN (March 2018) (singing): In my coat of many colors
mama made for me.
DENZEL WASHINGTON, ACTOR (September 2019): You never see a U-Haul behind a
hearse. That's what my pastor told me. You know, you -- you -- whatever you
have, you can't take it with you.
WALLACE (voice over): And we spoke with big thinkers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (July 2012): There's no right to privacy in the
Constitution, no generalized right to privacy.
WALLACE (July 2012): Well, in the Griswold case, the court said there was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indeed it did and that was -- that was wrong.
WALLACE (March 2015): How far have we come since Selma?
JOHN LEWIS, FORMER CONGRESSMAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER (March 2015): As a
nation, we've come a great distance.
WALLACE (March 2015): How far do we still have to go?
LEWIS: We're on our way. And there will not be any turning back.
WALLACE (on camera): She's liking that a little bit.
WALLACE (voice over): And, of course, we profiled some "Power Players."
WALLACE (on camera): Ah, the Hope Diamond.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (March 2015): Are you a tenor?
WALLACE: I don't know what I am. I used to sing in the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (February 2020) (singing): Hello, Chris Wallace, how are
you today?
WALLACE (February 2020) (on camera): That's the Chris Wallace song?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the Chris Wallace song. Yes.
WALLACE: Well, let -- let me hear that again.
MIKE TYSON, BOXER (May 2013): I'm old, man. I'm --
WALLACE (May 2013): Old? What are you 40 --
TYSON: I'm 46, yes.
WALLACE: What am I?
TYSON: A dinosaur. (INAUDIBLE).
WALLACE (voice over): Along the way, we shared some laughs.
WALLACE (on camera) (November 2007): That wouldn't be prudent.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (November 2007): No, it wouldn't.
It wouldn't be prudent. Now I've got do that.
WALLACE: Not -- not going to --
BUSH: Now I've got -- now I've got to do that.
WALLACE (January 2012): Your 42nd birthday and we have a -- a --
PAUL RYAN, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE (January 2012): You've got to be
kidding me.
Oh, my God, where did you get this?
WALLACE: Well, we actually --
RYAN: All right.
WALLACE: I was up all night making that.
RYAN: Yes, yes, you were. I --
WALLACE: You want to cut into that sucker?
RYAN: I don't eat sweets.
WALLACE (voice over): Ryan's wife never let him forget that moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (March 2021): We were able to get you your own official
Chris Wallace cut out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (November 2011): Come on. Raise your arms. Gobble,
gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble. Gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble.
WALLACE (voice over): We asked probing questions and got fascinating
answers.
WALLACE (February 2010): Ronald Reagan would never have quit.
SARAH PALIN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (February 2010): When it
adversely affected the people that I was serving, that's bull and I wasn't
going to put up with that.
WALLACE (July 2016): You don't think there's any legitimate reason people
would have doubts about your -- to use the phrase in the polls -- honesty
and trustworthiness?
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (July 2016): Well, I think
that it's fair for Americans to have questions. I hope you'll ask Donald
Trump why he is so untrusted by the American people.
WALLACE: I have.
WALLACE (August 2017): And the president's values?
REX TILLERSON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE (August 2017): The president
speaks for himself, Chris.
WALLACE (voice over): We conducted some challenging exit interviews.
JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR (December 2019): It was not acceptable.
And so he's right. I was wrong.
WALLACE (December 2019): But you make it sound like you're a bystander, an
eyewitness. You were the director of the FBI while a lot of this was going
on, sir.
KARL ROVE, FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR GEORGE W. BUSH (August 2007):
I'm a myth and they're -- they're -- they're -- you know, I'm Beowulf. You
know, I've Gradel (ph). I don't know who I am, but they're after me.
WALLACE (voice over): And we did what every Sunday show tries to do, we
made some headlines.
WALLACE (February 2020): Do believe that Donald Trump is unfit to serve as
president and should be removed from office?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT) (February 2020): I do believe he should be removed
from office. That's the vote that I will take.
WALLACE (on camera): Have we now reached a tipping point in Iraq where --
WALLACE (voice over): We tried to bring you all sides without taking sides.
And every once in a while showed our soft side.
WALLACE (January 2011): I'm clearly biased but Lorraine is a great cook.
LORRAINE WALLACE, CHRIS WALLACE'S WIFE (January 2011): I go out to a
restaurant and taste something and come home and, within two days, you're
eating it again. And then I don't get to go out to restaurants anymore.
WALLACE (December 2012): We like to think we take care of these wonderful
little guys, but once they're going you realize it's the other way around.
WALLACE (voice over): Most important, in an industry where there's often
more heat than light, we did our best every week to get past the spin and
bring you the truth.
WALLACE (May 2006): What have you done? What would you admit you did for
political expediency?
JOHN MCCAIN, FORMER ARIZONA SENATOR (May 2006)L I went down to South
Carolina and said that the flag that was flying over the state capital was
-- which was a confederate flag, was -- that I shouldn't be involved in it.
It was a state issue. It's an act of cowardice.
WALLACE: Act of cowardice on your part?
MCCAIN: Yes.
WALLACE: And you did it because you thought this will help me in the South
Carolina primary in 2000?
MCCAIN: Yes. Yes. Yes, sure. This -- this won't alienate certain voting
blocs.
WALLACE: And -- and --
MCCAIN: And I lost anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Oh, Johnny Mc (ph), we miss you. We miss your humor and your
candor.
Up next we'll reflect on how things have changed here over the past 25
years with two of this program's originals.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIAMS (May 1996): I think the Republicans are imploding. It's not that
Bob Dole has a problem, it's the Republicans have a problem with Bob Dole.
They have a problem with each other. They're arguing over abortion to the
point of being self-destructive.
HUME (March 2009): Word is now out that -- what the SAT scores of Gore and
Bush were and Gore did better, surprising no one, I suspect. But they got
about the same grades at Yale and Harvard, respectively, which I imagine
will trigger a new round of discussion about which school is harder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Two of the original members of FOX NEWS SUNDAY, Brit and Juan.
And, guys, I'm glad you both got to see, along with me, how much we've all
aged on the Sunday morning beat.
Let's go back, 1996, April, 25 years ago, Brit, when Marty Ryan started
this show and we didn't even -- Fox News didn't even have a studio yet and
you had to do the show from historic homes each week because you had to
find a place to do the show.
What did you think about FOX NEWS SUNDAY?
HUME: My thought was that it was professionally produced and I'm so glad to
hear you mention Marty Ryan's name because he was the originating producer,
was with the show for many, many years. He's a wonderful guy. We all miss
him. He did a terrific job. He was also the produce of our election night
broadcasts and many other specials. So I'm glad you mention Marty. He was a
great guy.
WALLACE: And -- and did you think -- did you think we were going to be her
25 years later?
HUME: Yes, I -- I thought so. And I -- and I must say, Chris, I mean, since
you took over the show, I think you've added a level of discipline and
focus and -- and sharpness of questioning that has -- that has really
helped the program. And it's been some of the hallmark of -- of your tour
of duty here.
WALLACE: Thank you for that.
Juan, did you think this show was going to be around 25 years later and did
you think that you were going to be still doing the show 25 years later?
WILLIAMS: Well, I'm honored to do it and I -- I must say, I want to just
emphasize what Brit said. I think that your questioning has become the
hallmark of the show. People know that they're going to get sharp
questions.
You know, I think a lot of this is being able to disagree without being
disagreeable, knowing that you can go to a Sunday show where you will get
really fact-based questions and expect honest, revealing answers. And
that's become the epitome of what, you know, what FOX NEWS SUNDAY is known
for.
WALLACE: I've got 20 seconds left, Brit. Everybody used to talk about you
and Juan getting in these fights. Did -- did it ever get personal?
HUME: Never for a moment. Juan and I -- Juan Williams and I disagree about
nearly everything political, but we have long been friends and I adore
Juan.
WALLACE: Well, and, Juan --
WILLIAMS: Yes.
WALLACE: Yes or no, do you adore Britt?
WILLIAMS: Oh, he's the best. And I've got to tell you, he says it's like
wrestlers sometimes. We go into the next town the next night and we do it
again.
WALLACE: Gentlemen, thank you. I'm not sure we'll make another 25, but
maybe five or ten.
Looking back over these past 25 years, this has been the job of a lifetime,
getting to travel the world, interview top newsmakers and then share our
stories with you.
We've tried to play it straight down the middle, to be just as tough and
probing with officials from all sides. We've tried to cut through the spin
and talking points and do our best to get to the facts, get to the truth.
That's what reporting is all about. And that's what we'll keep trying to do
here.
And that's it for today. Have a great week. And we'll see you next FOX NEWS
SUNDAY.
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