Lawmakers remain polarized over how to solve mass shootings
Are mass shootings an issue of gun control or mental health? The debate continues on 'The Five.'
This is a rush transcript from "The Five," February 15, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle. This is "The Five." We're waiting on new update on the Florida school massacre from Broward County sheriff and we're going to bring that to you as soon as it begins.
A lot of new details emerging today on the suspect who made his first court appearance this afternoon, 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder, one for each victim slayed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School yesterday.
The deadliest school shooting since Sandy Hook in 2012. More than a dozen others were wounded and two remained in critical condition. We know a lot more today about the suspect and his crime, but still not the motive. Let's go to Phil Keating live in Parkland, Florida, with the very latest. Phil?
PHIL KEATING, FOX NEWS: Good afternoon, Kimberly. This now goes down as the worst, most deadly high school shooting in U.S. history, outpacing by two fatalities the carnage that happened inside Columbine High School in Colorado back in 1999 where the death toll was 13. Here it is 17.
And the sheriff did disclose today that all family members have now been identified, all of the 17 victims have been also positively identified, so their families have been notified, and everyone is now struggling and dealing with the grief of having families completely shattered forever. In the words of the superintendent of the school as well as echoed by the governor and the attorney general, we should not be living in a place where a parent sends their kids off to school in the morning and they never return home after that last bell rings at the end of the school day.
As the sunsets and all newspaper headquartered out of the Fort Lauderdale area covering Broward County contacted the student, Chris McKenna, and is now reporting that Chris McKenna, a freshman, said he came face-to-face with the accused shooter just minutes before the rampage began yesterday afternoon, and according to the Sun Sentinel reporting, Cruz told him, you'd better get out of here, things are going to get messy.
And as he finished proceeding to load his weapon, that freshman ran out and is alive today. And of course, so is the suspect, who did not take his own life as so many of the mass shooters have done, but instead tried to blend in with the crowd of students and teachers fleeing the school after stashing his gun and vest and magazine rounds inside the school.
He was in court this afternoon, looking exactly as he is, 5'7", and just weighing just 131 pounds, the 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz had little to say. This was a court formality, first court appearance. His arraignment will come later, but the judge ordered him held without bond. Continuing that, his attorney said he's on suicide watch, and he is now facing charges, 17 first-degree murder counts.
As for the arrest of Cruz yesterday, about a mile, mile and a half away from the high school by a responding officer from a nearby town of Coconut Creek, remember, all kinds of law enforcement officers from all over flooded the scene as soon as these first 911 calls inside the school rang out to the dispatchers that there was an active shooter, multiple victims down on the ground, and so, fortunately, witnesses, students, primarily, inside the school had given authorities an outstanding description of what the shooter was wearing, black hat, burgundy shirt and black pants. Well, the arresting officers spotted a person dressed exactly like that, and here's how he described it today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COCONUT CREEK POLICE OFFICER MICHAEL LEONARD: I discovered an individual walking on the sidewalk that was wearing the clothing description that had been given over the radio. He looked like a typical high school students. He complied with my commands and was taken into custody without any issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEATING: Apparently, the suspect provided zero resistance to the arresting officer. He was, though, taken to a Broward County hospital for treatment of unknown injuries. We still don't know exactly what that was for. But he was released and certainly appears fine and is now in custody of the Broward County sheriff's office without bond. We did receive late today an a redacted, mostly arrest affidavit detailing that investigator say Cruz stated to them after he was read his rights, his post-Miranda comments, basically admitting, yes, he is the gunman with a AR-15 rifle who stormed in the school campus yesterday and began shooting as everybody flooded into hallways after pulling the fire alarm. Kimberly?
GUILFOYLE: Phil, thank you. So many warning signs were there, and the suspect was expelled from that very school. His former classmates knew that he was troubled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, he was like that weird kid at school that you see, like, walking around at school. Yeah.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely had a -- just something a little off about him. But everyone in the program was just a little quirky, but he was a little extra quirky.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Honestly, all people were kind of saying -- all kids (INAUDIBLE) like that saying that he would be the one to shoot up the school. But it turns out, you know, everyone predicted it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Even the FBI was tipoff about it concerning comments Nikolas Cruz posted on YouTube, but they were unable to identified him. So many times, Dana, we're frustrated because we hear in the aftermath about what people thought or hear some of the comments where he was quirky or extra quirky or some people have predicted it. FBI concerned about, you know, social media postings, but there's still the disconnect between those kind of things where people have some concerns or their postings on social media and the prevention of the act itself.
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: So, I'm not sure if descriptions like quirky are helpful because, look, I have to say that I'm quirky or Greg is quirky, I don't think that that's helpful. And so, but I do think there are other things such as being expelled, being told you cannot wear a backpack to school because you might be a danger to people.
The fact that the family that he was staying with, who was good enough to take him in after his mother passed away, he didn't want to be placed with the family that he was with, he moves in with this other family, they know he has an AR-15, and they make him keep it in a locker but they give him the key. To me, I think there are some other things besides being quirky. There are other signs.
In addition, we still don't have all the facts and all the information. We found out today that apparently he did some training with a white supremacist group and there's a lot more to learn there, I think. Kimberly was on The Daily Briefing earlier and said, was there any awareness that they had that they didn't pass along.
So I think there's still a lot to be found out about this, and I know we're going to have a discussion about mental health, and we should. But quirky is not a mental health disorder. So I think we have to be pretty careful about that in any sort of armchair diagnosis.
GUILFOYLE: Absolutely. I mean, Greg, that's not going to be significant enough. That describes pretty much everyone in the world, quirky, one way or the other.
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah. I mean, I always give a prescription after this about harboring soft targets. If you see something, say something, but we have to support that idea. Bring back institution, mental institution. We've seen a 95 percent decline in those kinds -- that kind of patient housing since 1955. But the thing that bothers me the most is, we need to dial back this relentless coverage. It's vast. It's emotional.
It's not rational at times, and I don't like to see this guy's face. I don't think it's healthy. We're marketing and advertising infamy. Every time we show his face, this guy is getting wall-to-wall 24-hour coverage around the world. This is an appealing reward for losers to continue this. We're animals that are vulnerable to persuasion. That is why we have advertising. If we weren't easily persuadable, we would not have commercials.
So clearly, repeating this kind of imagery, these fiends study previous fiends. It's a connection from one crime to the other. And we keep score, so do they. They want to beat the previous score. Whenever you report on a teen suicide, it breeds more teen suicides. That's why you don't report on them.
PERINO: That's why he said he wanted to be a famous YouTube shooter.
GUTFELD: Exactly. And I think we have to look at ourselves and our coverage and ask ourselves, are we part of this?
GUILFOYLE: Jesse, can I get your reflection?
JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: You definitely don't want to glorify someone like that. But at the same time, I think it's good to see evil sometimes when it strikes. And this guy looks so frail, like such a coward. Pathetic the way he just wobbled into the courtroom like that. And the fact that he survived and didn't take his own life really struck me because that never happens.
And we might actually get to hear from him in some form or another, the motivation, because I don't know if he's crazy or just evil or a combination of both, but we've never been able to hear from a school shooter like this before, and I'm very interested to hear from him. Now as a parent, I can't imagine getting a phone call and hearing that may be your child is not accounted for at school, and that would just break my heart. I have a lot of empathy for these parents.
The warning signs were out there. Dana mentioned a few of them. If you put his profile matrix together, torturing animals, sickling his dog on neighbors' pets.
GUILFOYLE: He's a psychopath.
WATTERS: Suspended, expelled, making threats, if you put that together and the FBI has a note that says under a YouTube video that he wants to be a school shooter, why isn't the FBI able to then, either go to YouTube and get his IP address and go pay the guy a visit? And you pay the guy a visit and you look at his social media profile and you realize his parents just passed away, he moved in and he's got an AR-15, that would be the first thing I would do. Pay this guy a visit. I don't understand why the FBI didn't do that. I've heard a lot of people on the internet saying, you know, why is the FBI so focused on this? This is what they should be focused on. These guys are doing the best they can. But to me, it doesn't make any sense. I heard someone in the gym today say, oh, you know, what's this guy doing with an AK-47? It's not an AK-47. It's an AR-15.
BROWARD COUNTY SHERIFF SCOTT ISRAEL: I'm going to start off by giving you a timeline and talk about the events that happened yesterday. I'm then going to introduce the Peter Forcelli, the SAC of ATF, and he's going to talk about the origin of the rifle. And then lastly, you'll hear from special agent in charge of the FBI, Rob Lasky, he's going to expound a little bit more on the tip.
Then I'll come back to the podium, we'll answer some questions. So I wanted to start off by telling you an Uber car dropped off the suspect at 2019 yesterday, 2:19 PM at Stoneman Douglas High School. The suspect entered the east stairwell, that's building 12 with a rifle inside a black soft case. The suspect exited the stairwell, pulled the rifle out of the case.
At 2:21:33, the suspect readied his rifle and began shooting into rooms 1215, 1216, 1214. He went back to 1216, back to 1215, and then to 1213. The suspect then took the west stairwell to the second floor and shot one victim in room 1234 on the second floor. The suspect then took the east stairwell to the third floor.
He dropped his rifle and backpack, ran down the stairs. He exited building 12 and ran towards the tennis courts and then took a southbound turn on foot. The suspect crossed fields and ran west along with others who were fleeing and tried to mix in with the group that were running away, fearing for their lives. The suspect arrived at the Walmart store.
He bought a drink at the subway, and then left the Walmart on foot. The suspect went to McDonald's, sat down for a short period of time. This was at 3:01 PM, and he left on foot. At 3:41 PM, 40 minutes after he departed from McDonald's, the suspect was detained at 4700 Wyndham Lakes Drive in Coral Springs by an officer from the Coconut Creek's police department. He was taken into custody without incident.
Today, we've interviewed, between the FBI, the Broward sheriff's office, and a significant amount of investigative from many other agencies, a lot of local law enforcement, so over 2,000 people were interviewed, and we continue. This is a fluid investigation. We have so many stats coming in, some true, some unsubstantiated, some rumors.
It's going to take a lot of time to sift through what's true, what's accurate and what's not. I wanted to honor the deceased victims of this horrific killing. I'm going to do my best to pronounce the names accurately. Please forgive me if I don't pronounce the names exactly how the families do, but I thought it's very important.
I want to pay homage to these families and to the victims. Carmen Schentrup, Meadow Pollack, Peter Wang, Nicholas Dworet, Christopher Hixon. My very, very, very special friend, who I'll miss, Aaron Feis. Luke Hoyer, Alaina Petty, Jaime Guttenberg, Martin Duque, Alyssa Alhadeff, Helena Ramsey, Scott Beigel, Joaquin Oliver, Cara Loughran, Gina Montalto and Alexander Schachter. May they rest in peace and may God comfort their families. At this time, special agent in charge of ATF, Peter Forcelli, will speak about the firearms.
ATF SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE PETER FORCELLI: Good afternoon. On behalf of the men and women from ATF, I want to extend my condolences to the family of the victim and from the people of the community. And I will also ask you to keep in your thoughts and prayers the first responders who responded out in the scene. In 30 plus years in law enforcement, I can tell you, this was a difficult one.
The firearm that was utilized in this event was purchased lawfully here in the state of Florida just short of a year ago by the individual who was charge in this crime. We're here to help the Broward County sheriff's office follow up on any leads that may pertain to the firearm or anything else that they need. Again, I ask that you keep the folks who respond in the scene as well as the families of the victims in your thoughts and prayers as we get through these difficult days. Thank you.
ISRAEL: Special agent in charge, Lasky, addressed some of the questions you had today about tips received regarding the suspect. Mr. Lasky is going to expound upon some of that information.
FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE ROB LASKY: Good afternoon. I'd like to take this opportunity to provide some additional information about the tip we spoke about this morning. On September 25th, 2017, the FBI field office in Jackson, Mississippi, received a tip about a comment posted to a YouTube account by someone with the username, Nikolas Cruz, spelled N-I-K-O-L-A-S C-R-U-Z. The comment said, I'm going to be a professional school shooter.
There was no additional information about the particular time, location, or further identifiers about the person who posted the comments. The complainant had provided the same information to YouTube. YouTube removed the comment. After receiving this information, FBI Jackson conducted an interview of the person who made the complaint. This person lives in Mississippi, has no connection to South Florida, and has no knowledge about the person who posted the comment. The FBI also conducted internal database reviews and open-source checks.
No additional information was found to positively identify the person who posted this comment. There was no connection found to South Florida. Moving forward, we will continue to gather all information about the subject as we try to identify his motives, his associates, and his actions leading up to yesterday's events. We're looking into his social media posts, his movements, his conversations leading up to the shooting, as well as any other indicators that may be out there. Again, my heart goes out to the victims, the families, and the friends, and everybody else who suffered by this cowardly and horrific act. Sheriff?
ISRAEL: I want to take this opportunity to thank this amazing group of people flanking me, your elected officials who came from places as far as Washington, D.C., Tallahassee, and just came down here. The calls I've received from Congresswoman Wasserman Schultz, from Mayor Beam Furr, Michael(INAUDIBLE) commissioner, on and on and on. I can't thank them enough. They just want to see safety and Broward County. To all of you, thank you. We will be going over -- I will be going over at 6:00 tonight to Pine Trails to a vigil for those that passed away. I know some of you are going to heed my remarks and I know some of you are not, but I'm going to say them anyway. You need to respect the privacy of these families.
These families are going to the most horrific time in their lives, and if they say they don't want to talk to you, respect them. Don't move forward with your camera. Don't move forward with your microphone. Let these families be. Let these families heal. They deserve that. Please honor them. Many of them called me and asked me to transfer this message, and I hope you'll consider listening. Many of you would have done it anyway. Some of you might not. Please respect these families. They lost children. They lost loved ones. Could you imagine what they're going through? Thank you for your time. Any questions?
UNINDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did he belong to a white nationalist group?
ISRAEL: It's not confirmed at this time. There's so much -- we've heard that. We're looking into that. You know, will just keep following on it though.
UNINDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did he speak to anyone at the McDonald's (INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: He might have. I don't know at this time.
(INAUDIBLE)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: It fits in perfectly. He could have shot them. He could have been within the school. They could have been outside. You know this is an AR-15. This is a powerful rifle and could have easily gone through a door or shot while the door was open. So we're still examining video. It's a great question. It's something that we've asked ourselves. Within a day or two we will have the exact answer to that. But at this time, it doesn't change or alter the timeline at all.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it turns out he was a member of this white nationalist group (INAUDIBLE).
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: It certainly could.
(INAUDIBLE)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he bought the weapon in Coral Spring at a dealership called Sunrise Tactical.
(INAUDIBLE)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: No, I didn't talk about releasing any video. We're examining video, and we might release information we cover or capture from the video. But at this time, we have no plans to release any type of surveillance video. You know, I also want to acknowledge Superintendent Runcie. He's been with us from the -- yes?
(INAUDIBLE)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just going to give way to the mic to Superintendent Runcie. He has some important things to say. And then I'll come back to the microphone.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Let me just first say, on behalf of the school board members and myself, our school board members here today, just reiterating what the sheriff has said, please respect the privacy of our families as they go through this horrific situation. Again, we can't stress that enough. If you could honor them and respect them during this very difficult time. We've had hundreds of people today that have gone through our crisis services that we've provided at several locations to here in Parkland, to in Coral Springs, we'll continue to provide those tomorrow and the next day as necessary. Again, the school is closed from now throughout the weekend.
We're going to be spending the next couple of days figuring out what the path is to reopen the school and what type of logistical challenges we're going to have relative to what has occurred in building 12 on this site. Once that information becomes available, we will be providing it out to the parents and the families in the community and the media as well. Again, thank you for respecting our families. Give them the space and time to grieve and get through this very difficult time.
UNINDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there a reason he targeted certain rooms? He's seem to gone through specific rooms and then upstairs? Have you found any reason for that?
ISRAEL: That is what our detectives and that's what the FBI are doing. We're interviewing him. We'll be speaking to him and gathering that information, but I can't enlighten you on that right now.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: Well, he was dropped off by an Uber vehicle. Let me say this, at this point, the driver is not complicit in any way, shape or form. The driver just simply picked up a fare and drop the fare off at Stoneman Douglas. He walked into the gate. He walked into the school. I don't know that anybody recognized him or knew who he was.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: I don't know anything at this time.
UNINDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you have any reason to believe that a family member or anybody --
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: At this point, there are other people we want to certainly talk to. There are people of interest that might enlighten us as to why he did what he did. But at this point, at this time, there's no accomplice or nobody else that we're looking at from that perspective.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: No, no, I have no reason to believe -- I haven't seen the videos yet. I'm going to be briefed tomorrow on that, but I don't know that he had a mask on at anytime.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: I've never heard that before.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: All the victims are at the medical examiner's office right now, the medical examiner is doing a thorough investigation. As I said before, we want to release the victims to their families. We understand that the Sabbath is tomorrow and we're very cognizant of that. But the main thing we want to do is we want to make sure that there's a successful prosecution, and we want to go as fast as we can, but accurate is better than speed.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: The school is a crime scene and we're examining the crime scene. Thank you.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: That I read out? No, no. There are adults on the list as well.
UNINDENTIFIED REPORTER: Has the family he's been staying with said anything? That they notice anything? Anything like that (INAUDIBLE).
ISRAEL: I'm not sure at this time.
(INAUDIBLE)
ISRAEL: I've never heard that first gentleman you named. I've never heard this name before. Thank you very much, appreciate it.
GUILFOYLE: OK. You're just listening to new updates on the Florida school massacre and hearing from the Broward County sheriff's department. And one thing they implored upon the media and the press, to respect the privacy of the families of those who have lost loved ones and lost children at a time like this of great stress and emotional imbalance for them. Juan, I want to get your reaction to some of the comments there, and some of the questions about the shooter.
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, I think one of the key things for all of us is, and you hear this with the sheriff, there's a concern about children. And I think this time, you know, one of the things that I hear in conversation, people say anything is going to change, anything different given what happened at Newtown where you saw children killed.
Again, now, we have children killed. Anything different about this one? I think the difference here is we could say we're in the midst of an epidemic that the numbers would suggest that we have so many of these now, especially at schools, that I think there're people on either side of this very emotional and entrenched issue who, for the first time, is thinking, well, this is intolerable, we have to do something at this point. We've had 15 of the worst mass shootings in the country since Columbine in '99.
Three have them occurred in 2016 and 2017. This is the sixth fatal school shooting in the last two years. So, you know, I think for lots of people, there's a sense of, we have to look for realistic solutions. We have to get beyond the partisan divide and the old arguments, and it maybe that we are at a point where something different because of the emotional power of what took place yesterday in Florida.
GUILFOYLE: Moving words, Juan. Dana, just the reaction there to the sheriff, and we also heard from superintendent.
PERINO: Well, I think they've done a very good job of keeping people informed as much as they can along the way, providing access to the press, to answer as many questions as they can. That's tough to do when you don't have a lot of information. You are dealing with, basically, a lot of unknowns and a public that is demanding answers. And then you also have the additional element of asking what can be done. When we come back from commercial break, I know we're going to talk a little bit more about that.
But I thought it was interesting this morning, the sheriff, the first thing he said is that there is going to be a time and a place for me to make recommendations on what could and should be done, and today is not the time to do that. But you can bet that I am going to do that. Those are his words.
That was kind of the first time that I think we have heard one of these law-enforcement officials actually preview that, and I'm curious what that's going to be because I think people do want to know, OK, what are some concrete things that could be done because I do agree -- it feels like a tipping point, people are ready for something to be done. I don't know what that is, but something.
GUILFOYLE: Greg?
GUTFELD: I don't know. I mean, there is this desperate chase for this knee-jerk solution every time, and when you do try to get into definite solutions and you offer them, it doesn't matter to the other side what solution you offer. There're too many first impressions by commentary ends and anchors, often to fill time, because they have to fill time, so everybody is talking. I mentioned this before the show, if anybody is familiar with Sherlock Holmes, you know, Dr. Watson always shows up and he's always very emotional. He sees something happening and he's saying, "What's going on here? This is terrible." And then Sherlock Holmes comes in with the rational explanation.
We, as the media, are nothing but Dr. Watsons. We just approach every single topic with this, "Oh, my God, what do we do?" And we're missing the Sherlock Holmes. We are missing the rational response to this. When we try to be rational about this and we try to talk about the facts, and facts about the shootings, and we try to take apart the statistics that are often wrong, then you're accused, somehow, of being against trying to solve a problem, that because you're pro-gun this or whatever. The fact is, we need more rational dialogue and less emotional -- less emotional time- filling commentary.
GUILFOYLE: And as the nation mourns, it's a country that also is struggling for solutions. And today, our nation's top law enforcement officer vowed to do something to do more to confront the crisis of mass shootings in America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF SESSIONS: We'll take such action as we're able to take. We've got to reverse these trends we're seeing.
We cannot arrest everybody that somebody thinks is dangerous, but I think we can and we must do better. We owe it to every one of those kids crying outside their school yesterday and all those who never made it out.
I understand the importance in this country of respecting the civil rights of every American, as you do, but the first civil right is the right to life, the right to be safe in your community. That's a fundamental right that you protect every single day. We cannot allow politics or bad policy to get in the way of this mission.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Mm. So obviously, our top -- our nation's top law enforcement officer wants to do something. Because as Dana says, it feels like this is the time, that the country is saying, "Enough is enough." We have personal responsibility in this to try to prevent these tragedies from happening again. This is too much.
WATTERS: You heard him say, I think, if you read between the lines, you can't legislate away evil. This guy was evil. I want to do something. I don't know what to do. I'd like to have an honest conversation with Greg and Juan about it...
GUILFOYLE: And Dana.
WATTERS: ... and I think there's a lot of smart Americans. Everybody at this table.
And do I think that Congress is going to fix this? Absolutely not. Congress has been talking about immigration for 30 years. Congress can't even pass a budget. I mean, you think Congress is going to -- they've been talking about mental illness, about guns. You think Congress -- no. Congress isn't going to do it.
But if you look at what this guy did, what the sheriff was saying, very cold and calculated and methodical. He takes an Uber. He goes into a specific entrance and targets two specific classrooms. He then tries to blend in with people blending in with people running away from the scene. Then he goes and buys a beverage.
You know, and now I'm hearing he's on suicide watch and he was remorseful. I think that's spin coming from the defense team. I'm very interested in hearing from this guy. I know a lot of people say they don't care; they don't want to hear. But this guy, to me, does not seem crazy. It does not seem completely mentally ill.
GUTFELD: I agree.
WATTERS: He's on the edge. I think he was an evil man. We might hear more stuff about it. There was a girl involved. If it was a bullying situation, there's a whole host of things that it could have been. We don't know yet.
GUILFOYLE: Yes. Dana.
PERINO: Oh, I thought we had to tease. So I think that there's one thing, when you said that Congress could do -- I do think there's something Congress could do right now. They showed last week that they're definitely willing to spend more money, and the FBI needs more resources. Just full stop. They have too many reports of these kind of things that they can't chase them down.
If you -- imagine you're an FBI office and they're like, "Hey, I think that somebody just put something up on the YouTube and you've got to try to find it." And you're like, "OK, I'm going to get to that as soon as I do the 1,500 other things that I have on my plate."
We absolutely need to be realistic about them needing more resources, and we need an ATF director. We still don't have 14 months into the administration.
WILLIAMS: You know what I would say, too, is we're talking about change. Is I hope that a lot of people who are in the video game industry, a lot of people who glorify guns, because they're so easy, and the kids just think, "Oh, it doesn't matter. You're just shooting something." That you start understand, there's a human being.
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: There's a family, and there's a dad and a mom. And you're hurting a lot of people. And movies? What about movies and TV? Guns are glorified and treated as every day in so many of our dramas, even comedies. I just think it's deplorable.
GUTFELD: Can I -- to Jesse's point, I agree, even though I believe we need more mental health facilities, I don't necessarily believe that these mass shooters are crazy. Dr. Jordan Peterson has talked about reading the letters of -- the journals of the Columbine killers and to be able to -- actually, you can't understand what they're saying. They are completely nihilistic. They have a nihilistic worldview. They are not insane. They know exactly what they're doing.
The Vegas shooter is not crazy. He planned that for years. That is an intelligent person who did that.
So we have to realize that belief -- nihilism is actually a belief -- and these are people that find infamy to be incredibly appealing. And we feed into that by constantly showing him and the images, and the work that this person has done. We are handing so much power over to these people, to these feeds. We are saying, "Yes, you -- we will cover you for 24 hours, 48 hours. We will show everything you have done." We are pawns for those kinds of people.
GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, coming up, the renewed outcry for gun control and much more when "The Five" returns. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WATTERS: With each of these tragedies, the national conversation always returns to guns as the problem, and our lawmakers remain polarized over taking action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, D-CONN.: This happens nowhere else other than the United States of America. This epidemic of mass slaughter, this scourge of school shooting after school shooting, it only happens here. Not because of coincidence, not because of bad luck, but as a consequence of our inaction. We are responsible.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA.: I'm not saying, don't focus on the gun part, but we also have to focus on the violence part. For to talk about gun violence requires you to talk about both, and the violence part is the one that goes well beyond an easy government solution.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
WATTERS: The president also responding to the shooting today but has a different priority.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We are committed to working with state and local leaders to help secure our schools and tackle the difficult issue of mental health. Later this month, I will be meeting with the nations' governors and attorney generals, where making our schools and children safer will be our top priority. It is not enough to simply take actions that make us feel like we are making a difference; we must actually make that difference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: So, Juan, you were mentioning in the commercial break about this guy's mental profile. He had just lost both of his parents. Where do you see that factoring in?
WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, I don't know. But I just said to you, Jesse, I think that's a trauma. In other words, for a young person to lose both parents is -- you know, I mean, that's unsettling. That will change the sense of your stability in this world.
And we know that he had also broken up with a girlfriend, was fighting with a girlfriend, fighting with the new -- the girlfriend's new boyfriend. And then there are all these talks -- there's all this rumor about whether or not he was involved in fringe kind of alt-right or white supremacist groups. So there's a lot of instability there.
And I think when we start to think about mental health, I don't have any objection to it. But I just think we have to understand that, for example, under President Obama, there was an effort to say, if you are getting Social Security payments, for example, because of your mental health condition, you can't handle your finances, you then, shouldn't be eligible to pass a background check and obtain a gun.
President Trump has said that's not going to happen. He said that's not the case.
So, to me, you've got to look at where we, as Americans, can agree. That we're not shouting at each other. And I'd say one of the things we can agree on is that people who have severe mental health issues should not be able to get a gun, that a kid who can't buy a beer, in this case, shouldn't be able to buy a gun, and that we could look at his background and say, "You've had a lot of trouble, son."
GUILFOYLE: That's true.
WILLIAMS: "Let's just back off this gun thing for a minute."
GUTFELD: But not buying a beer is not a mental health problem. So that's not a good comparison.
WILLIAMS: No, I'm saying, he's 19.
GUTFELD: I know, but...
WILLIAMS: So he can't buy a beer in Florida.
GUTFELD: Yes, I understand that, but if you grow up on a farm, a gun is like a car. It's something that -- it's a tool.
And also, in terms of if you want to talk about agreement, let's not forget that the ACLU also agreed with Trump on that decision. And I'm not entirely sure that whatever Trump denied would have stopped what happened today.
Again, what I'm trying to get at is that -- we have to -- we have to step back and think about this rationally. There's no knee-jerk solution to this. When somebody is planning something, they can plan for every preventive measure. We have seen this with 9/11. We saw this when -- you know, the World Trade Center was attacked, and they still were able to pull it off again, because they planned. It's almost impossible to prevent a fiend's plan. WILLIAMS: But that's not a -- look, you've got to say, why not try?
GUTFELD: Obviously. I gave four suggestions.
WILLIAMS: You say everybody knows that if you get into an evil genius, we're not going to stop.
WATTERS: Kimberly, what do you think about some of the preventative measures that could have been taken? Do you see anything specific here?
GUILFOYLE: You know, it's really tough to say, because it's an ongoing investigation. So you don't know. Like, preventative measures, in terms of, you know, who he was associating with. I'm very curious about the level of premeditation and deliberation. How far this goes back.
Juan brought forward some of the things that might -- people might be sympathetic to, that this is a young person that lost both their parents. Having lost both my parents, I understand the grief that you go through with that, you know, as a young child, and going forward without that loss of -- you know, with that loss of support.
Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the action and perhaps the motive and intention, even prior to that, having that history of conduct or violent tendencies or ideation in terms of violence. Who was he associating with, what were the known choices?
PERINO: His mother had actually -- his mother had called the police on him before.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, and had alerted...
WATTERS: Repeatedly.
GUILFOYLE: Right. So what Dana's suggesting, too, is the face that there was some, like, pre-existing obsession and focus with this. And this is someone that obviously had been engaging, over the course of time, in a history of sociopathic tendencies and behavior, showing a lack of consideration or any kind of empathy for animals or anything like that and torturous behavior, that sort of thing. So that's, like, a pattern of conduct you look at to say, "You know what? That's evil."
WATTERS: Yes. And you shouldn't be able to roam around and buy a gun like that when all that stuff's percolating.
PERINO: Well, I think a couple things. One of the things the sheriff mentioned earlier today is that they wanted to be able to know, like, if you get a call from a parent -- the Sandy Hook shooter's mother, remember, she called. She doesn't know what to do. Her child is exhibiting behavior that she is incapable of dealing with. She's trying to get help. She says she can't get help.
What we just found out yesterday, on the same day -- and Greg found this story this morning -- in Washington state, a grandmother who was taking responsibility for an 18-year-old, she is concerned. She goes into the room. She sees the journal. She starts reading it, and she realizes, "Oh, my gosh. This kid is about to do something unlawful and to hurt students in his school." She calls the police. They go, and they find, yes, absolutely, he has the weapon, he has the plan, and they arrest him.
So there has to be some personal responsibility, I think.
I also think on a -- this is not going to be popular, but they're not going to get rid of the guns. Now there's more guns than people now. But what could you do on the ammunition side of thing, and regulation and taxes is a possibility.
WATTERS: All right. Ahead, President Trump delivers a message to the children of America following the Florida school massacre. Hear it when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIAMS: Back now to the deadly school massacre in Florida. This morning while President Trump was addressing the tragedy, he took a moment to provide some comfort to America's youth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I want to speak now directly to America's children, especially those who feel lost, alone, confused, or even scared. I want you to know that you are never alone, and you never will be. You have people who care about you, who love you, and who will do anything at all to protect you. If you need help, turn to a teacher, a family member, a local police officer, or a faith leader. Answer hate with love. Answer cruelty with kindness.
We must also work together to create a culture in our country that embraces the dignity of life, that creates deep and meaningful human connections, and that turns a classmate and colleagues into friends and neighbors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: This is a point that I think is in the national conversation today, the kids. And the statistics indicate that 91 percent of children under 15 who are killed by gunfire in the developed world, 91 percent of them die in the United States. Twenty-four kids every day shot in the USA.
So, Jesse, how would you speak to a kid and, you know, to say, "We're going to deal with this. Please be kind"?
WATTERS: Well, I mean, it's up to parents and teachers and people in the community. And I think the president hit the right note there. And the words at the end that struck me, when he says, we have to develop a culture of meaningful relationships.
And right now, to Greg's point about the video games, that's a factor, when you combine that with the screens, through the television and the phones, you kind of disassociate yourself from the real world and human connections, and you lose a little empathy.
I was struck by some of the interviews of the children coming out of the horror show yesterday in school, and they're sitting there speaking to the reporters in such a factual way. And talking about stepping over dead bodies and the blood pouring out onto the floor. And it almost, like, wasn't really real to them, the way they spoke about it in such a calm demeanor.
GUILFOYLE: Shock.
WATTERS: I was shocked by it.
GUILFOYLE: They're in shock.
WATTERS: I thought I was going to see tears and people shivering and shaking. I didn't see that. I saw very straightforward reactions. And I don't know what the case of that was.
GUILFOYLE: They're in shock, Jesse.
WATTERS: It must be shock. Because...
WILLIAMS: Go ahead, Kimberly.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, I'm saying they're in shock. I mean, having been literally at crime scenes where the body is still bleeding and getting called out on the district attorney's office on the shooting team, you cannot imagine. The people are almost just, like, frozen like they don't even -- everyone reacts in a different way. But a lot of times in the face of such, like, horrific tragedy, you can't even, like, process it. You're trying to take it in. Just from, like, the visual and sensory, you know, cues that are coming in, the crime scene, all of it.
What I've seen is, later, they're going to have, you know, a lot of problems as they have nightmares and recovering from it. And that's why the support is so important, as I mentioned earlier.
WILLIAMS: Dana, one of things that people are talking about, in terms of gun safety, is, you know, smart guns, that if a kid finds a gun, the kid wouldn't be able to use the gun. Does that make sense?
PERINO: Well, I think innovation and technology -- and we were just talking about robots and the robot dogs. And yes, this is the time to think big. In Florida last week, SpaceX sent a rocket into space, with a car. It's now orbiting the earth, sending pictures back.
And we can -- as a country, we can help protect these children. I don't know what the exact answer is, but there are measures we can take. They deserve better. And we need these kids to succeed for our future.
GUILFOYLE: Can I also say something to her point? There is something really going directly to the children and developing situational awareness for things like this. It's sad that you have to have emergency drills at schools so that they understand, you know, to lock doors or try to look for cover, et cetera. It's like you prepare children at school for earthquakes. We had that all the time in San Francisco.
WILLIAMS: Empathy, Greg? You know, we're talking about the video games and people losing empathy. Jesse picked up on this. I wonder how you feel about it?
GUTFELD: Well, we have 300 and, what, 30 million people in this country? That's a huge haystack. There are a lot of needles in that haystack. And sometimes I'm surprised this doesn't happen more, and I'm surprised that violence on the whole is being reduced.
Society is changing. You have to teach them how to respond.
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
GUTFELD: You have to -- you have to be rational about it, which means hardening soft targets through drills and training, learning combat, learning hand-to-hand combat. This works, by the way, for terror, if there's a terror attack. And it works for school shootings, which is essentially domestic terror. So it's time that we actually think about this rationally and go, "How do you improve upon this?" Well, you train them. That's simple.
WILLIAMS: I think we train -- so you would have to train a kid to go to school? That's kind of sad to me.
PERINO: Well, it's survival.
GUTFELD: Self-defense classes are the best thing for a kid.
WILLIAMS: All right. Final thoughts coming up. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PERINO: Welcome back. One final thought before we go. Greg has a good one.
GUTFELD: Well, I would -- I know this is wishful thinking, for the media, but instead of focusing on this fiend, we should devote more coverage to people like Coach Aaron Feis, who acted as a human shield and saved I don't know how many lives at that school. This is the person that you must remember him for the longest time possible, as you commit yourself to forgetting about the disgusting fiend that caused this.
PERINO: Absolutely, Greg, well said.
Thank you for joining us tonight. That's it for us. More with "Special" - - more with Bret Baier, excuse me, on "Special Report" -- Bret.
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