This is a partial transcript from "Hannity & Colmes," August 26, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

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OLIVER NORTH, GUEST CO-HOST: Welcome back to "Hannity & Colmes." I'm Oliver North, sitting in tonight for Sean Hannity.

Coming up next, one state has found a way to deal with illegal immigration but a judge is standing in their way. You'll meet a lawmaker who won't take "no" for an answer.

But first, earlier this week Sean and Alan spoke with talk show host Larry Elder about his new DVD, "Michael and Me."


SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: We always love seeing you.

ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: How are you doing, Larry?


HANNITY: All right. This is awesome.

ELDER: Nice to see Alan, too.

COLMES: Thank you.

ELDER: Does that sound sincere? Does that sound sincere?


ELDER: OK, good.

COLMES: You're all right on that point (ph).

HANNITY: You're a regular guest on the program. You've got a DVD Out, "Michael and Me." This is — you financed this yourself.

ELDER: It is a labor of love, Sean. You know how we non-liberals whine about the Hollywood fare? I've always said put up or shut up. Why don't we produce our own stuff?

So I took out a home equity loan, a substantial amount of money to finance this film myself so I can edit it the way I wanted it to, edit it and get it out the way I want to get it out. And the genesis of it was Michael Moore's film, "Bowling for Columbine," in my opinion did not give the accurate overall picture of guns in America. It never asked the basic question how often do Americans use the guns to defend themselves?

Nor did it ask the basic question of what is the purpose behind the Second Amendment? And in my view the purpose behind the Second Amendment is to prevent tyranny by government.

And in my film, I discuss all that. I go all over the country. I talk to people who've used guns to defend themselves. I talked to cops who, by the way, rank and file cops believe that the average citizen ought to be able to apply for a permit to carry a weapon, the average rank and file cops. Chiefs don't, but rank and file cops do.

I talked to women who have used guns to defend themselves. I talked to a woman named Jane Doe, Sean. This is a very attractive lady. She's a realtor. She was assigned an area in California that was kind of a dicey area. She asked her boss for a body guard or some other security. He wouldn't provide it.

So she said, "OK, I'll go out and get a gun." She knew how to shoot. Her dad taught her how to shoot. Goes to California. Handgun waiting period. Stack of regulations. She said to hell with it. Two days later, Sean and Alan, she got raped.

Now, the question is whether she had a gun, would it had been able to stop this? She walked us very chillingly through what happened. And I'm confident, had she had a gun, she would have been able to protect herself.

HANNITY: Two questions. I want you to answer your question that you ask, because it's a provocative one. I want you to walk us through the Michael Moore part of this film, because this is in direct response, really, to his — I think — I would argue propaganda film, "Bowling for Columbine." And you wanted an interview with him.

ELDER: That's right. And I wasn't starting out to pick a fight with him, Sean. I just want him to come on so I could put a few questions with him, such as how often do Americans use guns to defend themselves?

HANNITY: What happened? Why wouldn't he come?

ELDER: Well, I contacted the people who distributed "Fahrenheit 911," and they promised that they'd have him, and the date came and went. Then his editor or publisher of his book, "Stupid White Men" and I had a conversation, he promised he'd have him available. That date came and went.

I confronted "Michael and Me" the way he did Roger Smith and the way he did Charlton Heston, finally. And I won't tell you exactly what happened because otherwise, you won't buy the film.

HANNITY: You've got to give us a little bit more than that. Come on.

ELDER: But I will tell you, though, I asked him three times how often Americans use the gun to defend themselves and three times, he failed to answer the question.

HANNITY: What is the answer to the question?

ELDER: Nobody really knows, Sean. On the low end, I've seen a government study that shows 100,000. On the high end, I've seen studies that show 2.5 million. I've even seen a government study that puts it a little bit over a million. Either way, the number, as one of my experts in the film says, is not trivial.

And my point, Sean, is people that advocate gun control don't even know that part of the question. Don't even raise it.

I had Chief Park from LAPD, the former chief, on my show once a month. He's a staunch gun control proponent. And I said to him, "Chief, how often do Americans use guns to defend themselves."

And he goes, "Well, I don't know."

HANNITY: How can he...

ELDER: I said, "Well, according to one of my experts, Americans use guns to defend themselves 2.5 million times. Out of that number, 400,000 believe but for the gun, they'd be dead."

COLMES: Larry, it's interesting you financed it yourself. You didn't sell your gun collection, did you?

ELDER: No, I didn't. No, I didn't.

But can I finish my story, though, Alan?

COLMES: Sure. Go ahead.

ELDER: And he said, "I don't know."

I gave him that number. He said, "I dispute that number."

I said, "What's your number?"

He said, "I don't know."

I said, "Well, isn't it relevant?"

He said, "No."

And I said, "Chief, if I told you 30,000 people die every year through car accidents without telling you what value cars have, you wouldn't be able to give me a proper response. How is it you're focusing on the fact that, as Michael Moore points out, 11,000 people die through handgun violence, non-suicide, but you have no idea how many people are alive because of guns?"

COLMES: You can't tell how many crimes are prevented or how many things don't happen. There's no way to know that information, is there?

ELDER: There's no way to know...

COLMES: How many things don't happen or how many crimes don't get committed because somebody has a gun. We can't come up with that.

ELDER: It's a fair question, Alan. We do know that states that do allow citizens to apply for a permit to carry concealed weapons, in those states, generally, crime has gone down.

COLMES: But there could be other factors.

ELDER: Of course there are other factors. But the factor is not the presence or absence of a gun. And that's what's important.

One more point, Alan. I interviewed a woman named — who wrote a book called "Guns and Violence." And she compared the 150 years during which time England had virtually no gun control to ours. And surprise, surprise, our violent crime rate was, in fact, higher, just as it is right now.

There are all sorts of cultural reasons, Alan, why violence is higher here than, say, in Britain. And by the way, in Britain, their violent crime rate is now exceeding ours.

COLMES: Let me ask you this: in your promotional material, you invoked Hitler. And for example, you say that, you know, in your press release it's a mistake to let people have arms and talked about what Hitler. Hitler did not want people to have arms.

And are you truly worried about a Hitler-type taking over America? Is this a level of paranoia that some people see in those who have your position on guns? You really worry about something like that?

ELDER: Alan, I don't worry about something like that realistically in America, but I would tell you that Jews did not worry that that realistically in Germany. Jews fought in the First World War. Jews considered themselves to be German first and Jewish second. It can happen. And if you read the Founding Fathers...


ELDER: I hope not. But if you read the writings of the Founding Fathers, they were very, very worried about that.

HANNITY: All right. So you and Michael Moore...

ELDER: Right.

HANNITY: ...in this film — where can people get it, Larry?

ELDER: They can get it on Amazon.com, or on BarnesandNoble.com and on Borders.com.

HANNITY: OK. And I'm going to put it on my Web site, too.

ELDER: And it will be nominated for best documentary, I'm confident, In which case you'll have me back and I'll hold my Oscar up. And I'll whack Alan with it. That will be my Oscar control.


ELDER: Oscar control. I need a joke or something.

HANNITY: All right, Larry Elder, it's called "Michael and Me." Amazon.com. We'll get it on my Web site, Hannity.com.

ELDER: Thanks, guys.

HANNITY: All right.

ELDER: Appreciate it.


NORTH: Great stuff, Alan.

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