This is a rush transcript from "On the Record ," December 7, 2007. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Guess where Joran van der Sloot is? He's out of jail. Just hours ago, Joran walked out of jail. He is now free in Aruba. And the court ordered him to be released. The judge said the recent investigation has not resulted in more direct evidence that Natalee Holloway died as a result of a violent crime or that Joran has even been involved in the crime. Now, the Kalpoe brothers walked out of jail last Saturday. So now what?
Geoff Fieger, is it over for — at least as far as the Kalpoe brothers and Joran?
GEOFFREY FIEGER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can't tell you it's over because this — you know, this is alarming parallels with the Peterson case. And absent the finding of a body or evidence which would indicate violence, we may be here next year and two years with Peterson.
I think this was their last best shot in Holloway. They, you know, set up a sting. They brought in the private detective in Holland. They hoped to coax in some way, shape, or form a conversation between the boys, or in some way get them to talk while they were in jail. They knew that they didn't have any additional evidence. And it didn't work. Now, absent ever finding Natalee's body, this is it.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, this is sort of one of your specialties. After everyone's sort of given up and the investigation has been bungled, you go in and investigate these. So it's all yours. Is there anything you think can be done, should be done?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, you're kind of at a disadvantage because you don't know, really, exactly what they've done or exactly what they believe happened to Natalee. But I would say that when you have new law enforcement officials running it, a new prosecutor running it, it kind of sounds like the same old — a new paint job on the same old car. Maybe they're trying to use different language crafted a different way, try to convince somebody, because they're a little more articulate or they get more in-depth.
But I agree totally. We might be here in a couple years talking about this same thing. But the discovery of the body will change things, and it might reflect on these statements. It might corroborate them. It might refute them. But either way, that is what's needed in this case, absolutely.
VAN SUSTEREN: Dr. Baden, there is a ship that has been — that is on its way to Aruba, probably arriving — maybe it's arrived already. And they're going to go very deep in looking. If — and I underline giant "if" — that she's in some type of container, whether it's open or not, and it's deep enough, is there anything left for forensic testing?
DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, a lot, because if it's deep enough, that means the water's cold enough that the body doesn't decompose. The bacteria — under 40 degrees, bacteria can't function, and that's what causes the body to deteriorate.
VAN SUSTEREN: How about fish and other...
BADEN: Fish and other things, depending on how the body's is wrapped. If the body is wrapped in sheets or something, or in a container, that keeps the fish away. But even if the fish get at it and the bottom feeders get at the body, they can't get the bones and the teeth. So you can always at least have DNA from bones, from teeth. If there are any injuries to the bones, bullet wounds, stab wounds, crushed skull, even a fractured hyoid bone — you know, strangulation, if that's still here because that's a small bone — they can still tell an awful lot from bones.
VAN SUSTEREN: Which would be actually huge because then it would establish — I mean, look, everyone thinks she's dead. Everyone thinks she's murdered, whether you think these three did it or not. But at least the one element of the — they need to show a crime.
BADEN: Right.
VAN SUSTEREN: And that would...
FIEGER: You know — you know, Greta though, you know, I live in the Caribbean, too, and the chances — if she has been buried at sea in a box, in a fish trap, which is the speculation, because she's obviously not on that island — the chances of her — she'd only be found by accident.
TED WILLIAMS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Greta...
FIEGER: She will never be found purposely. It'll be an accident, and the chances are virtually nil.
WILLIAMS: Greta...
VAN SUSTEREN: At least they're doing — let me just — Ted, let me interrupt for a second because I do want to talk about one thing, is the prosecutor, Hans Mos, said that there was "new incriminating evidence."
WILLIAMS: And that's what...
VAN SUSTEREN: And that's what he was — that allowed him to pick up the Kalpoes and pick up Joran Van Der Sloot. The judge last week said there was no new incriminating evidence as to the Kalpoes. They were released. Court of appeals greed. And so yesterday, when Joran Van Der Sloot had his hearing, the chief prosecutor somehow didn't make the hearing.
WILLIAMS: But that to me...
VAN SUSTEREN: Why didn't he show up?
WILLIAMS: That to me is the most upsetting aspect of this case.
VAN SUSTEREN: Besides the missing young woman.
WILLIAMS: You get the hopes and the expectations of these parents, who fly down to Aruba, hoping that this prosecutor has something. And the cruel hoax, as far as I'm concerned — and as I saw this evidence as it was supposedly coming out, I felt right away that they didn't have anything.
VAN SUSTEREN: Bernie...
WILLIAMS: And he — this guy said that they had new evidence. This judge has said that that does not exist. This is a tragedy. This is cruel.
VAN SUSTEREN: Bernie, we haven't see the 13, 14 and 15 pages that were given to these lawyers, that the lawyers sort of laughed at as being "new incriminating evidence." But is the prosecutor just a dope? I mean, like, I don't get it. This one's bad.
BERNIE GRIMM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I guess we can conclude that Karin Janssen, and now this new prosecutor...
VAN SUSTEREN: You're laughing!
GRIMM: ... is a dope. But quote, unquote, "We have new evidence" — I'm thinking confession...
VAN SUSTEREN: New incriminating~! New incriminating.
GRIMM: ... new incriminating — confessions, videotapes, We have the body, and there's nothing. And you got to pick up on what Ted said. Can you imagine being Beth or Dave Holloway, saying, Oh, my gosh, this is it? They don't have my daughter, but the people who did it will be held responsible because let me — be careful here. All they need to do is get over this hurdle and get them indicted or they bring charges. There's a fancy word for it. I don't know, and it's from Denmark or some other country. But at any rate, once they get them charged, it's a judge trial. After that, it's over.
VAN SUSTEREN: Michael?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I agree with what Bernie's saying about the judge trial because it's so much easier, as a prosecutor — and I did it for 15 years — to convict somebody in front of a judge they tend to be much more conservative than most jurors, so...
VAN SUSTEREN: (INAUDIBLE) convincing one. But (INAUDIBLE)
CARDOZA: It is. But — but here's why I laugh because, yes, is he a dope? In my opinion, absolutely, because if you're going to bring them down with no new evidence, at least call the family and...
VAN SUSTEREN: Or — or how about...
CARDOZA: ... say, Look, here's what we're going to try and do.
VAN SUSTEREN: Or have the courage after you lose the first one...
CARDOZA: To show up!
VAN SUSTEREN: ... the Kalpoes, to just...
(CROSSTALK)
CARDOZA: I mean, he's an invertebrate...
(CROSSTALK)
BADEN: He also said something else that affected me. He said — he admitted — he said that she was dead. Now, most of the Aruban officials have said, No, we don't even know if she's dead. She could be in South America or someplace. And I thought that he was...
FIEGER: You know, you guys — you guys...
BADEN: ... saying that somebody saw the dead body, and that would be proof of death, even if the body wasn't found.
(CROSSTALK)
FIEGER: You guys are completely wrong about the judges in Aruba, too. They don't respond like American judges. Anybody who said, If you bring charges, the judge will convict in Aruba, you're wrong. There's total independence of the judiciary there, and they jealousy guard the judiciary they don't respond to the fear in America of judges that the public will think they're soft on crime.
And as you've seen now, they've let these guys go twice, and they would never convict without evidence, ever, ever.
(CROSSTALK)
FIEGER: They're far different than American judges.
VAN SUSTEREN: Geoff gets the last word on that one.
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