Is there common ground among Republicans and Democrats for wall funding? Both parties are backtracking their stories
GOP strategist Noelle Nikpour, Democratic strategist Scott Levenson and Axios reporter Shannon Vavra debate whether or not there is a crisis at the southern border.
This is a rush transcript from "Your World," January 10, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: All right, you have been listening to the president of United States at the border right now. He is in the McAllen, Texas.
He's getting briefed on border security, as he makes the case for that border wall and hook or crook he is going to get it. The president saying he's ready to go it alone, even have Democrats don't deal.
Welcome, everybody. Glad to have you. I'm Neil Cavuto.
And the president today saying that he has the absolute right to declare a national emergency and is almost certain to do so if this shutdown drags on. It is in day 20.
Tomorrow would tie a record. The day after that, it would break a record.
FOX team coverage with Casey Stegall in McAllen, Texas, where the president was taking and is taking that stand, and Peter Doocy on Capitol Hill, where Democrats say they will not stand for his taking that stand.
We begin with Casey.
Hey, Casey.
CASEY STEGALL, CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil. Good to see you.
What you just saw happening is what local leaders say was perhaps, in their opinion, the most important part of the president's trip to this region, because, as you see, he is right there in the field, right there along the border, seeing it for himself and getting briefed by agents on the front lines.
And the reason they feel that that is so crucial is because, unlike any other part of our nearly 2,000-mile-long border that we share with Mexico, a narrow river, the Rio Grande River, is the international boundary. On one side, you have got the United States, the other side, Mexico.
And it is so shallow, by the way, in some spots, you can physically walk across, and the vegetation is extremely thick. That could pose some unique challenges to constructing a barrier or a wall.
But President Trump, speaking at a roundtable this afternoon, maintains that a physical structure, as you just heard him saying moments ago as well, is what is necessary to stop the flow of drugs and people coming into the U.S. illegally to keep Americans safe.
And you also heard him citing the recent death of a California police officer shot and killed by an illegal immigrant whose brother was a special guest of the president's on this trip.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Nobody talks about how unfair it is to the victims of these brutal killings. And, by the way, over the years, there's thousands of them. I don't mean hundreds. I don't mean in the teens. I mean thousands of them. And these officers can all tell you about them.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEGALL: You see the president giving the brother a hug there and thanking him for his presence.
Now, the mayor of McAllen, Texas, says that his border community seems split down the middle, half who support the wall and believe this is a national emergency in their backyards, with the other half saying that a barrier won't help and that there is no emergency.
The local Sierra Club president releasing this statement ahead of the president's visit today. I'm reading in part -- I'm quoting here -- "The president's hateful agenda and dehumanization of people are not welcome here in Texas or anywhere."
So, interestingly enough, from what is considered the epicenter of it all, here, the Rio Grande Valley of South Texas, where the number of apprehensions are highest and where the highest amount of drugs caught entering the country illegally happens right here, interestingly, Neil, about 50/50 or so, according to the mayor -- back to you.
CAVUTO: All right, thank you, Casey, very, very much, Casey Stegall.
You know, the president in a myriad of comments he was making today just said something a few minutes ago that startled a lot of people. I want you to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Mexico is going to pay for the wall. You think they're going to write a check for $20 billion or $10 billion or $5 billion or 2 cents?
No, they're paying for the wall in a great trade deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAVUTO: All right, this is an Abbott and Costello thing, but that is not exactly what you said in the past.
(LAUGHTER)
CAVUTO: Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We will build the wall. And Mexico will pay for the wall.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: And Mexico will pay for the wall.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I will have Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words.
We will build a wall, and who is going to pay for the wall?
AUDIENCE: Mexico!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAVUTO: All right, what he said, it was very consistent throughout the campaign, whatever you make of the idea.
Of course, it lit up his base by saying that the Mexicans were going to foot the bill for this, whether you want to call that writing a check or whatever. He was very, very clear, consistently, in fact, constantly, saying that the Mexicans were going to pay for this.
But he's not the only one who has played fast and loose with comments made vs. comments now made. Democrats are fast and loose at this when it comes to the issue of border security, not a big deal right now, but it used to be. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, D-N.Y., MINORITY LEADER: People who enter the United States without our permission are illegal aliens. And illegal aliens shouldn't be treated the same as people who entered the U.S. legally.
It's a terrible symbol. And symbols matter. We want the symbol of America to stay as the Statue of Liberty, not a big concrete wall.
REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF., SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: A fence as part of a comprehensive immigration bill is not something that I would be automatically against.
A wall is an immorality. It's not who we are as a nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAVUTO: Fair and balanced, you see the consistent sort of dancing around this issue? Both sides play this game.
But it's almost as if neither realizes that we have digital tape, video, audiotape, quotes that are easily retrievable. Both have said things that have locked them into positions that they now are claiming a 180 from, the president when he says that Mexico would pay for the wall. Apparently, he didn't mean it.
Democrats saying there is no crisis at the border, when apparently little more than a few months ago there was.
Peter Doocy on Capitol Hill on why that makes resolving this government shutdown so difficult.
They're locked into positions that they didn't even have little more than a few months ago.
Peter is on Capitol Hill right now.
PETER DOOCY, CORRESPONDENT: Neil, I actually -- Neil, I spent part of the afternoon tracking down Democratic senators who voted in 2013 for a package that included 700 miles for the border wall money and ask them what -- or border fence money.
And I asked them, what changed? Got a variety of different answers. But I -- the gist of it came from Chris Coons, who said, 2013, it had the 700 miles of border fencing, but it also had a pathway to citizenship, which they do not have right now.
As for the way out, we just heard from a key Trump White House alley who had -- ally, who has been trying to figure a way out of the shutdown, and his forecast now very gloomy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C.: I have never been more depressed about moving forward than I am right now. I just don't see a pathway forward.
Somebody has got to, like, get some energy to fix this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOOCY: Graham was the person trying to fix this. Last night, the South Carolina senator hosted a group of moderate Republicans in his office. Jared Kushner was there on behalf of his boss, President Trump.
And we have learned lawmakers are talking about the possibility of trading border wall money for a temporary DACA fix that would offer relief to illegals brought to the country as children, but wouldn't offer a pathway to citizenship.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi today revealed she might possibly be opening some sort of a DACA deal. But she is still a hard no on a border wall, and she's taunting Republican colleagues for digging in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: We are just saying to them, take yes for an answer. This is what you have proposed. Why are you rejecting it, at the expense of the health, safety and well-being of the American people?
Do you take an oath to the Constitution or an oath to Donald Trump?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOOCY: So, the government remains shut down. But, believe it or not, most lawmakers have already gone home for the weekend, 4:00 on a Thursday -- Neil.
CAVUTO: It's a good gig. All right, thank you, my friend, very, very much, Peter Doocy.
But you see what I'm saying here? When we take a look at this and what both sides' positions were, they're not intractable. There's common ground here, much more common ground than either party acknowledges.
To Texas Republican Congressman Chip Roy.
That's all I'm saying, Congressman. There has been enough flexibility in positions in the past to lead me to believe, on the part of the president and certainly on the part of Democratic leadership, that they're open to making a deal. They have said as much as what the other side wants in the past. And yet here we be.
What the heck?
REP. CHIP ROY, R-TX: Hey, Neil. Thanks for having me on.
I'm really delighted that the president is down in South Texas, down along the border with my former bosses, Senators Cornyn and Cruz.
And now, as a congressman, I'm glad that he's focused so much on border security. Today, there's going to be a little girl that's going to be abducted and sold into the sex trafficking trade. There's going to be an American citizen put in danger, like Jared Vargas in San Antonio near my district, who was murdered last July.
And his mother and his aunt and his family no longer have the benefit of being around Jared. And this is the kind of thing that the American people in Texas in particular are tired up. They're getting tired of the same- old, and they want commonsense solutions, including border security with fencing.
So, I'm glad the president's down there meeting with folks. Everybody I know in Texas, they're ready for a solution. And that is fencing. It's the immigration judges. It's all of the other solutions that are part of this package and Democrats have supported in the past.
CAVUTO: All right, when you talk about all of the -- when you talk about all of the other solutions -- and there does seem to be a willingness to recognize the other side's argument.
The president has said that, for example, he never was really talking about a wall, per se, when we have plenty of clips of him talking about a wall. Now, of course, he's open to steel slats and other venues to deal with this.
Similarly, Democrats, who had long argued that there was no crisis, that he's manufacturing one on the border, a little more than a few months ago, were saying there was indeed a crisis.
So why can't people get past their talking points that keep changing, by the way, and resolve some of these differences, open up the government, and stop this silliness?
ROY: Well, what I look is what has been actually proposed.
We're talking about somewhere around 230 miles of fencing. Keep in mind that, over the last two decades, Democrats and Republicans alike have, as you point out, jointly supported, authorized the construction of a fence, wall, whatever word you want to use.
But we want physical barriers. We want cleared cane. We want roads along the river, so that our Border Patrol agents can navigate the river. We want the cell towers. We want radios. We don't want to leave them defenseless against the cartels who have operational control of the border, and who are using human beings and girls.
CAVUTO: But let me ask you this, Congressman. I know where you're coming from. And pardon me if I sound rude. I don't mean to be.
ROY: Yes.
CAVUTO: But is it your sense that the president might have confused folks with this idea that Mexico would pay for the wall? He disavowed that, saying today that was never his intention and that they would never be writing a check and all.
But he did, as we proved in just a few bites there, over the course of the campaign and even into his presidency repeatedly say that Mexico was going to pay for this.
ROY: Well, what's important is that it actually get built. What's important is that we actually restore operational control of the border.
CAVUTO: But, Congressman, he said he never said it. He did.
ROY: Well, but what's -- but here's what matters, is that we have got -- this year, we're going to face a trillion-dollar deficit.
And our Democratic colleagues are hanging up on $5.6 billion to do our basic duty as a sovereign nation, to put a physical barrier on the wall, to have immigration judges, to have technology to make sure that we can do our job, to stop the cartels, gangs, MS-13, and to...
CAVUTO: No, I understand the urgency of that, but it just seems odd that a Republican is worried about deficits that are now eclipsing a trillion dollars, Democrats saying the same over their stewardship of adding $10 trillion to the debt in the eight years Barack Obama was president.
Everyone just seems to be talking past each other and lying.
ROY: Well, I don't think anybody's talking past each other with respect to the crisis that exists at the border. You and I agree on that. And we're talking about that.
But our Democratic colleagues don't seem to recognize the importance of doing their basic duty. You and I both know we can find $5.6 billion in a nanosecond around Washington to find a way to pay for that. And we can do so without increasing the deficits.
But we're going to have a trillion-dollar deficit this year.
CAVUTO: Well, what is your idea to find that?
ROY: Well, go -- across-the-board cuts. Find ways that we can go find programs to eliminate, whatever it takes to go find...
CAVUTO: But no one has proposed that.
ROY: Oh, sure.
CAVUTO: You know what I'm saying? Congressman, no one has proposed that. They just say, give us $5.6 billion.
I'm not saying -- it's a worthy goal and the security is a legitimate issue, but Republicans haven't come up with how to pay for that, or just as Democrats weren't coming up with ways to pay for lots of things in the past.
But it's like we're just made of money. And this is how we have a record debt level. This is why we have the Federal Reserve boss talking today about debt worries him more than anything else.
ROY: It's -- there's no question that debt is one of the fundamental issues. It's our -- a national security crisis.
In fact, the defense secretary said it's one of the biggest issues we face. We need to balance the budget.
CAVUTO: But you never do. You never, ever do.
(CROSSTALK)
ROY: But the first -- the first duty of government, the first duty of government is to defend the United States of America from enemies, foreign and domestic. And that includes national security, and that includes border security.
So we should do that.
CAVUTO: And the includes our financial security as well.
ROY: Absolutely.
CAVUTO: This is an urgent need, but you guys wouldn't like it if it turned around on you, and a Democratic administration was pushing what it said was vital, vital, vital programming, and you were arguing for the same thing, that they're going to hold the government hostage to getting that.
ROY: Neil, I'm happy to support any legislation, any legislation that will cut other federal government spending in order to fund security at the border and provide our Border Patrol agents what they need to have more agents, more wall security, more cameras, more personnel.
CAVUTO: No, I understand what you're saying. And these are all meritorious goals.
But if a Democratic administration were to come in and argue the same -- and we have seen this happen with both in the past, sir -- that, all of a sudden, they're going to make the same pitch and hold the same government hostage to the same urgently needed initiative.
And I'm just saying that, at what point do we just say, this is adding up, $5 billion here, $6 billion here? And, by the way, this $5.6 billion is a down payment on something that's a fraction of the cost being mentioned right now.
ROY: I could not agree more. We must start with the income that we have, the $3.5 trillion, defend the United States of America abroad and here at home, and that includes border security, and then do the rest that we need to do.
But we need to secure the border now. And you know and I know it's a crisis. And we need to balance the budget. We need to have health care freedom, and then get Washington, D.C., out of the way.
These are things we can do if we'd all just come together and agree on the common points and the commonsense answers the American people want.
CAVUTO: All right, Congressman, thank you very much.
Fair and balanced, we're going to hear from the Democratic side on all of this.
And fair and balanced, we're also going go back in time, not necessarily giving my opinion or my guests' opinion, but the movers and shakers and what they had said on this very issue.
Not my words, their words. Not my words, the president's words. Not my words, Nancy Pelosi's words. Not my words, Chuck Schumer's words. Not opinion, fact, statements made then vs. now that don't add up -- more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: All right, welcome back, everyone.
Day 20, and the government is still partially shut down, at least a quarter of it. Some are saying that the spreading effect of this is actually shutting down a third of it. I have no idea.
This much, I do have an idea of, the inconsistent positions that show that these two sides are not that far apart, a president who is open right now, it would seem, to recognizing that Mexico isn't going to pay for wall, and Democrats who seen, at least given some past statements we played a little earlier, recognize the severity of what's happening at our nation's border.
So they shared common concerns then. They actually share these same common concerns now. And a lot of this to me just seems like professional wrestling, where each one plays a part, and the media complies, goes along, and continues spouting the same game, depending on their biases, whether they're for or against the president, for or against the Democrats.
I'm telling you, folks, I have watched this and listened to this carefully. They both are playing a lot of games here.
Republican strategist Noelle Nikpour, Democratic strategist Scott Levenson, and Axios' Shannon Vavra.
Shannon, I want to get your take on what's going on here, because there is more common ground than either lets on, Democrats who bemoan the fact that the president's manufacturing a crisis, when, little more than a few months ago, it was a crisis.
The president saying, we're going to get that wall, the Mexicans are going to pay for it, now saying that he never intended the Mexicans or thought the Mexicans would.
So, they're both talking past each other. And they're both zooming us.
SHANNON VAVRA, AXIOS: The common ground here, you're right, is that there is a humanitarian crisis at the border. And it's only getting worse.
But the bottom line here, for the political stance, is that we're at a standstill, right? Nancy Pelosi has said she's not going to fund the border wall, and President Trump says that he wants a wall or there's no deal.
And we see him leaning into this idea that he could declare a national emergency over the border wall funding at this point, and he confirmed that this morning.
CAVUTO: Right.
Noelle, I'm just wondering who wins here, because the original surveys that were done showed that the Republicans were botching this. Now, they're all over the map, these numbers. But now, in some of the later ones, both sides are getting equally blamed.
The longer this drags on, I cannot see how both sides escape the wrath of voters. What do you think?
NOELLE NIKPOUR, REPUBLICAN FUND-RAISER: You know what? The longer this does drag on, Neil, the longer nobody really wins in the end. And the argument gets diluted along the way.
And people get really tired of watching the two sides argue. And I think that's -- earlier, you were saying that the Democrats say one thing and then backtrack. And then Trump says something about Mexico paying for the wall and then backtracks.
I think this is why people have a real problem with politicians, is because they're on camera saying things, and then they change their story. What's the problem with just saying, yes, I said that, but things have changed, and I now say something different?
Nobody will go along and admit that what they said was incorrect, and they want to say something different going forward. I think that this is part of the problem why you can't just go ahead and change your story.
And it's OK. And it's OK to have a different viewpoint.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: It's all right. And I remember that great Ronald Reagan thing. I evolved. That's fine. I evolved on that position.
Of course, he was talking about starting out as an FDR Democrat and then, of course, as a conservative Republican.
NIKPOUR: Right.
CAVUTO: But, Scott Levenson, where does this put Democrats right now? They're not budging. Obviously, the president isn't going to budge.
The longer this drags on, is the party thinking or some of your Democratic colleagues thinking they're having the advantage, or what?
SCOTT LEVENSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think what you said is absolutely true, Neil. We're not having a genuine argument about the concerns around immigration.
You would think that, after last week's misspeak by Sarah Huckabee Sanders, we would have recognized that there are other porous ports that are of equal concern, air and sea. And if we were having that genuine discussion about immigration, we would be addressing a comprehensive immigration plan, not the demagoguing that's been...
CAVUTO: Well, we have done that in the past, right?
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: So I'm saying, is it your Democrats who sort of pooh-pooh or dismiss whether there's a crisis at the border have lied about it, that they -- in fact, there is a crisis? It's just in the eye of the beholder.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVENSON: I think we actually recognize that there's a comprehensive crisis that has to deal with paths of citizenship, that has to deal with our other ports.
CAVUTO: But they're not open to the very wall that they were open up to before, right?
LEVENSON: Neil, the problem is, is that when you just talk about the wall, when you just talk about our southern borders, what you're doing is demonizing.
You're creating demagoguery. You're creating this sense of, we're under siege from our southern borders. And that's just -- but that's...
CAVUTO: No, I hear you, Scott. But they're also talking about the common ground.
I mean, you talk about comprehensive immigration reform.
And, Shannon, we have been there before with Ronald Reagan, with Bill Clinton, with both Presidents Bush, and Barack Obama. And we never, ever get past go.
VAVRA: And one of the really interesting points I want to point out here is that Senator Mitch McConnell, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, has been totally bowing to President Trump's demands at this point.
We saw him kind of sparring this morning with Senator Cardin and other Democrats on the Senate floor over whether they should use some of the House funding bills to reopen some of the government. And so that's an interesting point I want to pull out there.
CAVUTO: And, by the way, they did. The House just approved a transportation and housing appropriations bill to that point, unanimous Democratic support; 12 GOPers voted for it as well.
So, you're quite right on that. But it's going to take that kind of step- by-step movement to move the needle. Right?
VAVRA: Absolutely.
And I think, in the coming days -- as you said earlier in your show, on Saturday, we will surpass the record for the longest government shutdown in history. And that's going to start to probably feel -- put some pressure on both sides of the aisle here, on President Trump...
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: No, I hear you.
Noelle, do you think that the president did a huge disservice to Republicans, though, on this Mexican comment? No comment did this president make more often and in as many places as this idea that the Mexicans were going to pay for the wall.
And to say today and dismiss it today, oh, I didn't mean they were going to write a check for it, then what the hell does pay for it mean?
NIKPOUR: Well, I mean, if you will recall, this was a chant. Who's going to pay for the wall? Mexico is going to pay.
CAVUTO: Right. Right.
NIKPOUR: I mean, this was a chant at rallies.
The president really does not like to admit he is wrong or that he misspoke.
CAVUTO: There's nothing wrong with admitting it. I built a career making big doozies.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: I'm just telling you, I think the American people are very wise.
NIKPOUR: Sure.
CAVUTO: And when they see this kind of stuff and remember the comments themselves that were made by both parties...
NIKPOUR: Yes.
CAVUTO: ... they're not going to rip them for things -- they acknowledge a mistake. I got it wrong. I thought they would pay for it, but I got it wrong, and beyond, and be done.
NIKPOUR: This is his personality, Neil. Right or wrong, this is his personality.
CAVUTO: Well, he is not the only one.
NIKPOUR: He's not going to say he's wrong.
CAVUTO: But I'm just saying, enough already.
NIKPOUR: Yes.
CAVUTO: Guys, I want to thank you. I'm sorry to jump on all of you, but I'm -- I'm so angry that I might not eat dinner.
And some of you are saying, that's probably a good idea.
(LAUGHTER)
CAVUTO: We will have more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: He's worth close to $140 billion. And Jeff Bezos is now getting a divorce in an equal property state called Washington state. Split that empire.
We will after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: All right, the president on the border. He's going to be leaving McAllen, Texas, pretty soon.
Former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer.
Governor, what do you make of this back-and-forth on this? We have got a government essentially held hostage to this debate. Is that right?
JAN BREWER, R-ARIZ., FORMER GOVERNOR: No, I don't think that it is.
I think that Congress and the president, they need to stay at home, and they need to go to the table and solve this problem. They ought to lock the doors and not let anybody out.
The public wants our border security. We're tired of all the nonsense. And they need to do their job.
CAVUTO: Now, would you recommend that, to get a comprehensive package, it's told that Republicans have to be more flexible on DACA, the children of the illegals who entered this country and, through no fault of their own, are kind of stuck in limbo here, and that more Republicans than have been generally acknowledged are on board with that?
What do you think?
BREWER: I agree.
We know that we have a problem with DACA that needs to be resolved. And this is the time that we could do it, with President Trump's leadership. I think that he has said that he's offered up an agreement on it. But the Democrats just flat-out refuse to give President Trump a border wall and a partial payment.
I mean, it's just absolutely ridiculous that this has gotten to the point where it has. We have dealt with this problem for decades.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: Let me ask you, Governor, because the president used to say, as a candidate for president and then as president, that the Mexicans were going to pick up the tab for this.
Now he says today, you misunderstood me. I never said they are going to write a check. But he did say consistently, dozens of times. I just picked up a few of them where he did say just that.
So, if I'm a Democrat, I'm trying to strike a deal with this guy, wouldn't I say, wait a minute, you just lied?
BREWER: Well, they have already called us all liars anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: Well, back and forth. You're quite right.
BREWER: Yes, right.
And the bottom line is that the American public, they want our border security. It's the federal government's responsibility to fund it. And they need to figure...
CAVUTO: But the American public thought that the Mexicans, under this president, would pick up the bill, right?
BREWER: Well, I don't know. Yes, he did.
And I don't know what kind of deal that he thinks that he can do or is going to do in order to make sure that Mexico pays for the bill. But we know the money all comes out of the general fund, the federal government. And they need to get it done, and they need to get it now.
CAVUTO: Right. I understand what you're saying.
Governor, let me ask you. Maybe there was something to what he said about we have this trade deal with Mexico. It's still not ratified yet. But we have a trade deal that would create some of the revenue.
BREWER: Right.
CAVUTO: Is that what he meant to pay for this? And then how would he use that to pay for this?
BREWER: I don't know how -- well, how he meant that Mexico was going to pay for it.
CAVUTO: OK.
BREWER: But we know there's always tariffs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Every government knows that.
CAVUTO: Sure.
BREWER: And, eventually, maybe they will pay it. Maybe they will pay for it in trade with this new agreement.
But the public is frustrated. And we need to get it done. And to just simply just no, no, no, no -- and he has negotiated, and he has compromised.
CAVUTO: All right, where's the compromise been on his part? By not calling it a wall, or by saying the Mexicans are going to pay for it, not going to be it? Where? What's the biggest compromise you think the president has made?
BREWER: They -- they -- they didn't want a cement wall, so now it's steel barrier wall.
CAVUTO: Is that really a compromise?
BREWER: He -- I think so.
CAVUTO: OK.
BREWER: And I believe -- and I believe that Mexico will pay for it.
I think they -- forget that. Move on. It -- just...
CAVUTO: I like what you just said there, Governor. Forget that. Look at reality. Forget that and move on. And I think you're quite right. Move on. We all -- things evolve. Situations evolve.
BREWER: Right.
CAVUTO: What has been said in the middle of a political campaign is one thing. Delivering the goods in reality as president is another, and we evolve. Move on, right?
BREWER: We absolutely need to do that. And I think that leadership needs to lock people in a room.
CAVUTO: All right.
BREWER: We do that at a state level. And not let anybody go home until it's a done deal.
CAVUTO: All right, well, good luck with that.
Governor, it's always good seeing you. Happy new year.
BREWER: Thank you. Happy new year to you, Neil.
CAVUTO: All right.
And, by the way, this goes for Democrats who said, what crisis? I don't see any crisis.
More after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: All right, they're already the world's richest couple, and now breaking up, they could be the number one and two richest people on the planet.
FOX Business Network's Hillary Vaughn on what's happening at Amazon and team Bezos.
HILLARY VAUGHN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil.
Well, Jeff Bezos is about to lose his title is world's richest man. And he could lose as much as half of his net worth in this divorce, as his soon- to-be ex-wife is on track to become the world's richest woman.
Bezos announcing on Twitter that he and his wife, MacKenzie Bezos, are divorcing after 25 years of marriage. TMZ reports that Bezos did not have a prenup, and the couple will file for divorce in Washington state. That's a community property state, where assets are split 50/50.
It's not just Bezos' personal wealth that's at stake here, though. Control of his company, Amazon, could be up for grabs too. Right now, Bezos is worth $137 billion and owns about 16 percent of Amazon. MacKenzie could be entitled to more than $66 billion.
And if she opts for a payout, Bezos could have to sell or pledge some of his shares, diluting his control of Amazon. Bezos also owns The Washington Post. He also has the space company Blue Origin, and also significant investments in companies like Airbnb, Twitter, Uber, and Nextdoor and a handful of other companies.
So, either way, no matter who gets what's here, there's a lot of money to go around, and this probably will go down as the most expensive divorce in history to date -- Neil.
CAVUTO: But both parties apparently want it to be amicable.
We will see what happens.
Hillary, thank you very, very much.
VAUGHN: Yes.
CAVUTO: Let's get the read on this.
FOX News legal eagle Mercedes Colwin. We have got FOX News contributor Kat Timpf and Internet radio sensation Mike Gunzelman.
Mike, it's supposed to be friendly.
MIKE GUNZELMAN, INTERNET RADIO HOST: You hate to see this. You really hate to this.
CAVUTO: Then why are you smiling?
(LAUGHTER)
GUNZELMAN: Well, Jeff -- can I call you Jeffrey?
You idiot. You are -- you're go with a prenup. Why? Because love stinks. It's not real.
CAVUTO: They have been married for 25 years.
GUNZELMAN: Doesn't matter.
(CROSSTALK)
GUNZELMAN: No, no, it doesn't matter.
You are an idiot. You deserve everything that you're getting and more right now. And, Neil, I just hope this doesn't affect the cost of my Amazon Prime membership. It better not go...
CAVUTO: Always back...
(CROSSTALK)
GUNZELMAN: Always back to me.
CAVUTO: That's one thing where Don Imus was right about you, always about you.
(LAUGHTER)
CAVUTO: Mercedes, legally, it's a -- what do they call it, a share state, right? What's the term they use?
MERCEDES COLWIN, LEGAL ANALYST: The shares that are at stake?
CAVUTO: No, no, no, where you share, you split down the middle.
COLWIN: Oh, yes.
So it could be equitable distribution. But this is -- this is a community property state, so it's down the middle.
CAVUTO: Down the middle, and then that applies to whatever wealth you have accumulated or stock you own or anything like that?
COLWIN: Exactly, accumulated during the marriage.
And funnily enough -- because, when Ron Perelman asked -- they said, well, why is why is divorce so expensive, his response was like, because it's worth it. And that's really what it boils down to.
This is the price of freedom. The big issue, though, here is that most of his wealth is based on stock. That's why this whole issue about Amazon really comes into play. Most of his wealth is on stock. That means that he may have to pledge half of that, of his wealth, meaning the stock. Then he starts to lose control of the company.
So you start to see the instability.
CAVUTO: And that, by the way, got -- the reason why we're doing this, because it's a great business story, America. We're not interested in the sordid details of this.
GUNZELMAN: Yes, who wants that, right?
CAVUTO: But, all of a sudden, if he had to sell a lot -- I mean, that could affect shareholders and all that.
Kat, is your sense, though, that they have given -- as a couple, they have given the indication that they want this to be amicable, they're still remaining friends, et cetera, et cetera, so that this might not become a soap opera?
KATHERINE TIMPF, CONTRIBUTOR: I think that's what everyone says at first.
But I think that an amicable divorce is quite often a myth. I think that, especially if you're going to be losing half your money -- I mean, in this culture, in this culture, we tend to...
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: Half your money is still leaving you with...
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: Seventy billion dollars.
TIMPF: But he used to be able to do ridiculous stuff. Like, he could start a lemur breeding business. He could start -- he could still do that, but maybe not as large of a one.
CAVUTO: You can do that with $70 billion.
GUNZELMAN: In our culture, we tend to focus on all the good aspects of love. It's so great to fall in love and love is all you need.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: We still believe in love.
(CROSSTALK)
TIMPF: Love can destroy you more than anything else can.
(CROSSTALK)
GUNZELMAN: All I can say, I would do a lot and wake up next to anybody for $70 billion, or $70, either way, whatever comes first.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: Are you propositioning? I think you're propositioning.
TIMPF: It wouldn't even have to be human.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: This is a family show.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: Legally, I'm just curious.
I mean, is it automatic that assets are shared? You have had others in states where they are supposed to go 50/50, where the divorcing spouse leaves the other spouse, usually a woman, with a tidy sum, but certainly not half.
COLWIN: I mean, there are changes. There could be changes.
I mean, one, it really depends on what they're going to do. There are four kids here. So there is going to be some -- at least some effort to be amicable, to have this split be amicable.
So if it does get litigated, it is going to get super messy, because we're talking about the stock, we're talking about the property. And he may be forced to sell the stock.
If not, the judge may step in and say, look, it still has to be equitable and just. So that's really the standard here. And is it equitable and just?
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: Twenty-five years ago, that was that was the launch of this juggernaut. And then so it all started in those married years, right?
COLWIN: Right, the prenup, you mean?
CAVUTO: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: Oh, sure.
The prenup wasn't really -- it wasn't really bandied about 25 years ago, to your point. It really wasn't.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: He's all of a sudden pontificating like he's Perry Mason here.
GUNZELMAN: But here's the thing. You need to do the prenup, because like what happens if you hit the -- I play Mega Millions all the time, because I want to become a millionaire.
But you don't know if that's going to happen after you get married. So, get the prenup first.
CAVUTO: So, wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: How romantic is that, Jeff? Seriously, is that romantic?
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: You hook up with someone, you're going to demand a prenup? Because you would be lucky to find someone to put up with you.
(CROSSTALK)
GUNZELMAN: It's the first question on the date. Do you believe in prenups? No? Check, please. Let's go.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: Nice. Very romantic.
(CROSSTALK)
GUNZELMAN: You got to do it, right?
TIMPF: Well, there's nothing romantic about losing half your fortune either.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: But isn't a prenup pre-gauging that your relationship won't last?
TIMPF: Well, sure. But you know what? You get to keep more money.
And this is proof that, even after 25 wonderful years, love can still die.
GUNZELMAN: Yes.
CAVUTO: Wow.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: And when there's another woman involved.
(CROSSTALK)
COLWIN: There is another woman involved.
(CROSSTALK)
CAVUTO: Allegedly.
COLWIN: Allegedly.
CAVUTO: So we shall see. Thank you very, very much.
Gunz, I'm extremely worried about you.
GUNZELMAN: Story of my life. It's going to be a bad 2019.
CAVUTO: Thanks, guys.
And, again, that notion -- of course, Mercedes raised this as well -- this idea that, as an Amazon shareholder, you might have to concern yourself with it, because if the big boss has to unload a lot of stock, then who buys that stock? Usually, it's depressive for the stock. It was a little bit today.
We will watch it very, very closely, because it's a great business story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: All right, the bottom line is, a wall matters, security matters, what people are passionate about on either party, that matters.
But family physician Dr. Jennifer Caudle joins me right now to say, you know what, what also matters, what happens in a shutdown.
And what's happening in this one worries the good doctor a great deal.
Doctor, thanks for taking the time.
DR. JENNIFER CAUDLE, FAMILY PHYSICIAN: Thank you.
CAVUTO: What's happening right now? Now, for the FDA, it kind of handicaps them, right? Explain what happens.
CAUDLE: Well, in a government shutdown, so many organizations and agencies are changed. And we're seeing that also with the FDA.
As a family doctor, I am concerned about this. The FDA does a lot of things. And to be clear, there are a lot of services that will continue. There are some, rather, some of their emergency services, et cetera. They will respond in outbreaks, et cetera.
But I think one of the things that definitely has made so many others concerned is the change in routine food evaluations and food investigations. So, we know that foreign foods will still be inspected. But the problem is, the routine investigation, inspection of domestic foods, that's what's kind of changing right now.
And that does have me worried a little bit.
CAVUTO: All right, so from food inspections to just policing what's going through processing plants and cattle facilities and grain facilities and all, it's not as if that stops, but there isn't the man or woman power to keep on top of it to the degree we used to, right?
CAUDLE: Right.
Well, right. And that's what's happening. So, in this time where we don't have the manpower that we used to have -- and I should say the commissioner of the FDA has been very helpful with all of his tweets. He's been tweeting about what they're doing.
Again, we're still doing foreign food inspections. What the commissioner, Dr. Gottlieb, is trying to do is to continue high-risk domestic food inspections, which I think is a good idea. Higher-risk foods will be things like cheeses, fruits and vegetables, infant formula, medical foods and things like that. That's going to be very important.
But those are -- the routine food inspections are not necessarily going to happen the way they had before. And this is my thing. We have foodborne illness outbreaks in times where we do have food inspections.
Foodborne illness outbreaks happen already. I'm just concerned and wondering what's going to happen when we don't have that manpower able to investigate and inspect sort of our routine food supply the same.
CAVUTO: But it's beyond just the food, right?
You reminded me and others have in the past here that it also affects simple drugs and availability and tests and all the rest, that that is...
CAUDLE: Right.
CAVUTO: ... while not directly affected, the indirect funding that goes to the National Institute of Health and some of these others that get private and public funding, that kind of enters a Twilight Zone, right?
CAUDLE: Well, no, you're right.
And it's not just food. I definitely do want to be clear. It's cold medications, prescriptions, generic drugs, prescription drugs. Now, let me be clear. It's not all stopping.
CAVUTO: Right.
CAUDLE: And, actually, the HHS.gov Web site actually has a very, very good description of the services that will continue and those that will stop.
Not all services are stopping. But the ones that I think are sort of on the higher priority list, I think about our food supply. I think about people going to the grocery store.
CAVUTO: Good point.
CAUDLE: And that's something I think about and wondering how we proceed in this time, certainly.
CAVUTO: That's well-put.
Dr. Caudle, thank you so much.
CAUDLE: Thank you.
CAVUTO: I needed that perspective. We all did.
And, as the doctor pointed out, it's not just food. It's for those trying to close on an FHA-backed loan, you can't, so the closing is delayed. A lot of these Wall Street guys who are salivating at companies going public, they can't because the Securities and Exchange Commission is kind of decommissioned, and on and on.
And it spreads further and further and further. There are people who are passionate about those issues, just as much as there are people passionate about a wall, just as there those who are passionate about not building a wall.
You see, everyone has their passions. Everyone has their issues, but everyone can't be in the front of the line.
More after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAVUTO: You ever get the sense that Wall Street kind of realizes this shutdown is just Kabuki theater, and they're all playing fast and loose with the facts and their passions and games?
Because we were up today, a fifth straight session we have been up. Haven't done that since last October.
And that's because the markets are thinking this will resolve itself. Bigger issues, like trade, stable interest rates, hopefully better earnings, and that's what they're betting their money on. How about you?
"The Five" is now.
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