New questions on alleged college sexual assault cases
KC Johnson provides insight into college sexual assault and due process on 'The Kelly File'
This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," June 16, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, we are getting new details in "The Kelly File" investigation into an alleged sexual assault at a prestigious college as the case now draws national attention. And raises serious questions about what passes for justice on college campuses.
Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.
Picture this. A young man is attending one of the country's elite schools. Amherst College in Massachusetts. A young woman accuses him of sexual assault for an incident that occurred nearly two years earlier. He was drunk on the night in question but denies any sexual assault. Now the school opens the case against him. It is the kind of trial his college education, his reputation, his future is on the line except unlike in a court of law he has untenured faculty sitting at his jury, three of them. And they will not allow him an attorney in the proceedings, they will not give him access to discovery meaning the chance to obtain relevant evidence that might undermine the case against him.
They will not allow him to cross examine his accuser because they feel it could intimidate her. They take the accuser's word with little to no corroborating evidence and vote to expel this young man because they conclude it was more likely than not he did it. No proof beyond a reasonable doubt was necessary, just 51-49 percent chance he did it. And he is gone, kicked out of college, labelled a sex offender publically and publically shamed. Then this young man hires a lawyer. And guess what that attorney discovers, text messages from the accuser that suggest not only did this young man not attack her, she, the alleged victim appears to have sexually assaulted him.
The young man, of course, went back to the school and made clear that in his judgment a travesty had taken place presenting the text messages which show that not only did she not alleged rape on the night in question but she actually a couple of hours later invited another man over and then had sex with him celebrating the double hookup in one night. Now, you might think that any school would reopen this case at this point, allow the young man the chance to clear his name. You would be wrong. And it was all made possible by new rules ordered by the Obama administration two years ago, which to this very moment mean this can happen to virtually any male on any campus at any time.
Brit Hume is our Fox News senior political analyst, he's going to join us in a moment on this story. But first tonight, we have new details on what is happening with this young man. And Trace Gallagher has those now. Trace?
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And Megyn, we have hundreds of texts, strong evidence from the accuser herself just minutes after she performed a sexual act on John Doe, the accuser began texting two other male students. One was a dorm counselor, the other was a student she invited over to, quote, "entertain her." To the dorm counselor, the accuser graphically explains the sexual encounter with John Doe, indicating it was consensual, quoting here, "Oh my God, I just did something so f-ing stupid." "What did you do?" he asked. "Blank John Doe." "No, you didn't," the counselor says. She responds, "Official story is he puked and I took care of him, but yes, yes I did."
At the same time she is texting the other male friend wondering if he is coming over. Quote, "Ha-ha, does that mean you're en route?" He response. "I thought I was a lost cause." "So, am I actually bringing this game," he says. She responds. "I don't know, you think you will need it?" She then texted back her dorm counselor joking about the possibility of having sex with two men in one night. The counsel writing, quote, "Double your pleasure, double your fun." Her response, "Ahhhhhh stop, this is so f-up."
The other student confirmed they did have sex and in a sworn affidavit said, quoting, "When I arrived, the accuser did not appear in any distress to the contrary, she was friendly, flirtatious and spirited. At no point did she appear anxious, stressed, depressed or otherwise in distress." John Doe says, later that morning, he came back to the accuser's dorm room to get his phone and that she was friendly. The accuser also admitted to her roommate John Doe's girlfriend, they had an intimate encounter. The roommate later stated the accuser, quote, "Did not indicate to me in any way that John Doe had acted in an aggressive or otherwise inappropriate fashion."
During John Doe's hearing, a witness testified about the text messages, but the school never followed up even after John Doe was expelled. And the actual text messages were turned over to Amherst, the school refused to consider them calling the hearing fair under federal guidelines. As for John Doe he is in academic limbo right now because his transcript says, "he was expelled for disciplinary reasons." His family know he was expelled but doesn't know why. He thinks he let down his little brother and wants to remain anonymous because he is embarrassed and doesn't want the case to follow him for the rest of his life on Google. For now he is working a job with no future and a future Megyn that right now is very uncertain.
KELLY: Trace, thank you.
Joining me now with more, Brit Hume, our Fox News senior political analyst. The facts of this case as they are laid out now in a lawsuit that John Doe has brought against the school are shocking. Brit, they are shocking and the latest in a few incidents we have heard about college age males essentially being presumed guilty just as soon as the accusation is made against them.
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it certainly happened in the Duke Lacrosse case, Megyn. And that was even before these guidelines from the Department of Education came down. They certainly happened in the immediate reaction in the aftermath of the University of Virginia story of the alleged fraternity rape that was published and later found to be bogus in Rolling Stone. This is the response that these colleges have to these kinds of accusations. And why would they have them? And why would Amherst say after this travesty, that you and Trace have just described, that the proceedings were fair under government regulations because under the government regulations, they may have been fair.
KELLY: Right.
HUME: Because these government regulations dictated basically to these colleges by the Obama Department of Education are outrageously unfair, they trample all over as you described the due process rights of the accused in these cases. And the result is this travesties that we get, these preposterous verdicts based upon as you point out the weakest evidentiary standard, preponderance of the evidence. So, the result probably, while it shocks us to hear about it when you know what is going on here is really not so surprising, is it?
KELLY: Uh-mm. As angry as it makes you feel against Amherst, it is really the administration. It is really the Department of Education that has mandated these guidelines in an effort to protect alleged victims. And let's make clear, all victims start out as alleged victims. We have a legal process we go through to make sure they really are. And the Duke fake rape case shows us why we do that. In an effort to protect alleged victims they have completely abolished the rights of defendants, of the accused.
HUME: Well, they have, Megyn. It all stems from what's called a dear colleague letter that the Department of Education sent out a couple of years back, as you described. The thing goes on forever and it basically lays out the very kind of judgment process that was used in this case in Amherst. And the reason why --
KELLY: But you can't cross-examine the accuser because you might intimidate her, come on!
HUME: Exactly. It's appalling. But this is what has resulted from this new attitude that we now have about all this. And the reason why the department -- the department can't officially order these things into being. But the federal government has so much leverage because of the extent of the federal money that goes to nearly every college and university in the land. And it is really the case Megyn that none of these colleges can afford to lose that. They become dependent on it. And this gives you a sense of how deeply the tentacles of the federal government have reached into every corners of American life.
KELLY: But what is it, Brit? What is it about the administration or is it a Left thing? You tell me. But what is it? I understand the desire to protect victims. Actual rape victims have it very tough and it is intimidating to try to face your accuser.
HUME: Yes.
KELLY: Or face your assaulter.
HUME: Right.
KELLY: However, what is it about the administration or some who are so committed to protecting them that they are ready to throw young college aged men out the door with no thought to what their rights are, to what their future is like, innocent men in some cases?
HUME: Well, it is now an article faith on the American left on which this administration is a product that sexual assault is rampant on college campuses and there have been these so-called studies that show as many as one in five women experience sexual assault while going to college. Now, those numbers -- that statistic in particular have been debunked so many different ways that it would take forever to describe them all. Nonetheless, the President continues to repeat it. You hear it all the time. It is in that letter that dear colleague letter. And so it is based upon this mythical claim of this widespread epidemic of sexual assault on campus that is the basis of all of this and it is false.
KELLY: Right.
HUME: And the product that it is produced in terms of the justice of it all, well, you have seen what it is like.
KELLY: We care about our young college women, but we also need to care about our young college men, not all of whom are rapists and sexual assault --
HUME: You know, Megyn --
KELLY: Got to go. Quickly, Brit.
HUME: I always thought the hookup culture would end badly and maybe this is how it ends.
KELLY: Thanks for being here.
HUME: You bet.
KELLY: Also tonight, getting a new explanation from the former NAACP chief who resigned after the world discovered she is not really black. You will hear from her after the break along with her brother who joins us with what he thinks is going on with his adopted sister.
Then, new drama in the Freddie Gray murder case as Baltimore's top prosecutor makes another controversial request.
Plus, did you catch what Donald Trump plans for America if he's elected president?
Marc Thiessen and James Rosen join us on Trump and what he said about his money, his brains and why he thinks he could be the greatest president ever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, 2016 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am officially running for president of the United States and we are going to make our country great again.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: Developing tonight. The former NAACP President of Spokane, Washington breaks her silence in a series of interviews about how a woman born to white parents with then claim that she is a black woman.
Rachel's adopted brother Ezra is here to respond along with Kevin Jackson who is executive director of The Black Sphere. First, let's hear a little from Rachel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
MATT LAUER, HOST, "TODAY "/NBC: Are you an African-American woman?
RACHEL DOLEZAL, FORMER SPOKANE NAACP PRESIDENT: I identify as Black.
LAUER: And when you see this picture, is this an African-American woman or is that a Caucasian woman?
DOLEZAL: I would say that visibly she would identified as white by people who see her.
LAUER: But at the time were you identifying yourself as African- American?
DOLEZAL: In that picture during that time, no.
LAUER: When did it start?
DOLEZAL: I would say about five-years-old.
LAUER: You began identifying yourself as African-American?
DOLEZAL: I was drawing self-portraits with the brown crayon instead of the peach crayon and the black, you know, black curly hair and, you know, yes.
LAUER: You have changed your appearance. Your complexion appears darker than it did in the photos of you as a young lady. Have you done something to darken your complexion?
DOLEZAL: I certainly don't stay out of the sun. You know? And I also don't -- as some of the critics have said, I put on black face as a performance. I definitely am not white. Nothing about being white describes who I am. So, you know, what's the word for it? You know, I mean, the closest thing that I can come to is if you are black or white I'm black, I'm more black than I am white.
MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: Are you a con artist?
DOLEZAL: I don't think so. You know, uh-mm --
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
KELLY: Ezra, thank you for being here.
EZRA DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL'S BROTHER: Thank you.
KELLY: So, she says she identifies as black but she is not black, is she?
E. DOLEZAL: She's not black at all. She's been white up until 2011. It is only when she started to try to change how she looked and several things about her like her hair and what clothes she wore and all that.
KELLY: Were you aware that she did this? I mean, back in 2011, were you like, wow, Rachel is pretending to be black now?
E. DOLEZAL: Yes. Yes, I was.
KELLY: What was your reaction to that?
E. DOLEZAL: I was surprised but then again, she tried to distance herself from the family gradually since 2006.
KELLY: Did you see her, you know, portraying herself as a black woman?
E. DOLEZAL: Yes. I mean, a couple of times like, she, I don't know, she has changed how she acted a little bit sometimes and try to, it was almost like she was trying to fit a stereotype, a couple of stereotypes.
KELLY: She -- I know that you come out and said that she used to tell you that all white people are racist. Did she say that to you explicitly?
E. DOLEZAL: No, she told Isaiah that. And Isaiah -- would come back every time -- and tell all the stuff that Rachel said.
KELLY: Isaiah is your younger brother.
E. DOLEZAL: Isaiah is my younger brother she took my parents to court over.
KELLY: She made allegations of abuse in your family suggesting that, well, to name one, that your parents have been physically abusive to the children including she claims she was whipped with a baboon whip obtained by your parents in South Africa when you lived there. She did not live there but the rest of you did.
E. DOLEZAL: Yes. She's never lived in Africa. She was never abused growing up. I don't know why she is saying baboon whip from South Africa. She was an adult when we were in South Africa. So, I really don't know how she is saying that she got whipped with a baboon from South Africa. I mean, she has never been there. My parents didn't abuse her. So, I really don't -- like not that I know of. I'm 100 percent sure they didn't.
KELLY: When you hear the story of, you know, "I drew myself with a brown crayon when I was a child." Do you believe it?
E. DOLEZAL: Not at all. I mean, I think it is ridiculous. I mean, when she is growing up, I mean, there was no signs at all. Like those pictures that she says she drew, I mean, I don't think she can produce actually real ones. I mean, she would have shown my parents growing up -- she never did.
KELLY: When she was living as a teenager, was she somebody who you thought this is someone who identifies with black culture? She wants to be black?
E. DOLEZAL: No. I actually only noticed it -- she was only interested in African-American studies but she was never actually wanting to be black or even try to say that she was black until 2011, 2012, that's when she started saying that she was born black.
KELLY: What do you think that is about?
E. DOLEZAL: Honestly I have no idea. I don't really know what exactly made her do that.
KELLY: What do you think she is doing to her appearance? Do you think she is doing something to darken her skin?
E. DOLEZAL: I'm 100 percent sure it is makeup. I mean, she is trying to say she has been out in the sun, but like none of the other members of the family could even hope to -- I don't know -- but my parents they can't really get a tan like that. Neither can my older brother.
KELLY: They're Czech and German, right?
E. DOLEZAL: Yes. So, all that, I think, yes, I don't believe any of it.
KELLY: You think she is mentally disturbed?
E. DOLEZAL: She possibly might be. I'm not sure. But she might be, I mean, she is coming up with stories in her head. And she seems actually, like the interview today she kind of seemed like she actually believed what she had been telling everybody. I mean, it is kind of interesting like the more times she tells it, the more she actually believes it.
KELLY: Ezra, I'm sorry for what your family is going through.
E. DOLEZAL: Oh, yes.
KELLY: I'm sure there is more on this story. But we appreciate you coming on.
E. DOLEZAL: Oh, definitely. Definitely.
KELLY: All the best to you.
E. DOLEZAL: Thank you. Thank you.
KELLY: Even as Rachel's parents and family explain how she was born white, raised white and is still white, her defenders have tried to argue otherwise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE ED SHOW"/MSNBC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She may not be African-American but she certainly could be black in a cultural sense. She is taking on the ideas, the identities, the struggles, she's identified with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Kevin Jackson is the executive director of TheBlackSphere.net and author of the book "Race Pimping." Kevin, good to see you. So, he says she is black in the cultural sense and she seems to be suggesting that same thing.
KEVIN JACKSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THEBLACKSPHERE.NET: That sounded like Eric Michael Dyson and I can't see the monitor. But yes, and he is a race pimp. Look, at the end of the day, if David Duke, if we found out that David Duke were really a black man this would be a huge story to the left and they want to play it off. These guys are reeling because this defeats the narrative of how oppressed it is to be black in America. And I saw a clip where Jon Stewart used some of the things that we're on, that came on FOX, and he is ridiculing it instead of actually understanding the conservatives are going to have fun with this subject for quite some time because we have been preaching that America is ready to go beyond race and here is a girl faking it.
And by the way, she is not the first one. Elizabeth Warren should be the one we are really talking about. The reason why she won't run for president is because of the Dolezal effect. She knows she is a liar. There are couple of things you can think about here, Megyn. One, Barack Obama would not be president if he were bury Obama. And if he were to cater to his white side. This lady had more jobs than a Jamaican and she wouldn't have any of them if she hadn't claimed to be black. And I'll tell you, and neither Elizabeth Warren wouldn't have a career if she wouldn't fake being an Indian. This is the pathology of the Left and they're obsessed.
(LAUGHTER)
KELLY: I don't even know -- I don't get the Jamaican thing. Do Jamaicans have a lot of jobs?
JACKSON: They do.
KELLY: Okay. But here is the thing that is interesting to me. So, okay, I don't know why she pretends to be black. But I do know based on what the family is telling me, she has a history of going to strange places. She was born in a tepee, no she wasn't said her parents. She used to hunt for food with bow and arrow, no, she didn't. She was whipped with baboon whip, no she didn't, she never lived in South Africa when the family lived there.
JACKSON: Right.
KELLY: She draw herself with a brown crayon and this is now the proof that she is somehow African-American, she is black because she used a brown crayon and then the teacher said, no, you need to use peach.
JACKSON: Well, let's just put it out there. She is a pathological liar. Because what I have learned about liberalism is they don't want to live up to the truth of who they are. You know, Barack Obama's dad was a goat farmer and all these other things because, you know, what, the real truth of who he is, is not going to get him elected. It is not going to promote a narrative, that's a false narrative of this country. This is a lady who has lied about how she cared for her kids. And one of the things that she said was in order to properly care for her brother that she supposedly took care of, she needed to black. What about her parents who are caring for these kids and they were white? What about the very many white families who are --
KELLY: But why do you think people care about this story so much? What is it about this story at its heart that is making this story so big?
JACKSON: I think that the real issue here is that the Left is so obsessed with race and making everybody appear to be on the right, appear to be racist and all this other is. And here we finally get a story where we show that this lady is lying, she lied about nooses. You know, mail that she's gotten and hate mail and everything that has come to her has been something that she created for herself. And so finally the conservative movement is saying, look, this is the truth of these folks. They are liars.
KELLY: Kevin, always interesting getting your perspective. Thank you so much. I learned a lot.
(LAUGHTER)
JACKSON: My pleasure.
KELLY: Good to see you.
Also tonight a new demand in the Freddie Gray murder case stirring up some serious controversy.
Plus, new drama over Hillary Clinton, her e-mails and new questions from Republicans about what she may be trying to hide. Congress and Trey Gowdy is here live on what his team discovered behind closed doors today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I have absolute confidence that everything that could be in any way connected to --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Well, the Baltimore D.A. or state's attorney in charge of prosecuting those six cops in the Freddie Gray case is seeking once again to shut the defense team up. This, after she was given a national platform to argue her case. First, she tried for a gag order but that was thrown out by a court. Now, she wants a protective order that would stop the defense from sharing any evidence in this case with the public. Problem is the public has a right to see that stuff. All of which has sources close to the defense asking tonight, what is she trying to hide.
Mark Eiglarsh is a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. David Wohl is a senior associate attorney with Wallin & Klarich. Good to see you both.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Megyn.
KELLY: So, that is the question, Mark. Once again, once again, she goes out there and she wants to shut them up. And what the public watching this may not understand is that the entire system is stacked in her favor. You go in there as the attorney representing the state. The guy sitting at the defense table have been arrested. The jury is looking at them thinking they did it. They wouldn't have been arrested if they didn't do it. And that is why the system allows defense attorneys to do things like talk to the media and the public. But Miss Mosby won't have it.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Consisted with his modus operandi, she started this enormous fire with her press conference and now wants to take away the hoses so nobody can put the fire out. Let me explain something to you, Megyn. She had this press conference that lasted over 20 minutes that passionately told the world how guilty these guys are and then she gives press conferences after that explaining how the arrests were unlawful. And third she is on stage at a rally for peace with prince to celebrate the justice that she is going to seek and the death of the decedent? It is so grossly inappropriate it leads everyone to question (audio gap).
KELLY: Held us in suspense there. Question, what? They're both gone. Oh, they are back. Oh, I love the suspense here. David Wohl, what do you think?
DAVID WOHL, SENIOR ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY, WALLIN & KLARICH: Megyn, there is no doubt that there was an extraordinary rush to judgment in this case. Nobody debates that. I mean, the worse part of it all though isn't what Mark said. The worst part is she files charges less than an hour after she gets the police reports before she even sees the autopsy protocol.
KELLY: Well, she said she independently investigated that. But is there any justification David for her to come out and say, I want the defense team to shut up.
WOHL: Yes.
KELLY: I don't want them talking to the media. I don't want them releasing evidence. I want to try this case she now claims in a court of law and not in the public?
WOHL: Yes. There is. Because frankly, Megyn, if she didn't do this motion, my guess is a judge would do it on his own. The worst thing that can happen in a case with such extraordinary publicity is for everything to be tried in the media which it definitely will be probably already but not to the extent that it would be if the autopsy was released or the police reports were released. Megyn, both sides are entitled to a fair trial. There is no question about that. So, if you stop at least the reports from being released you might be able to preserve that.
KELLY: Yes.
WOHL: So, I think to that extent the motion is well done.
KELLY: Can I just read this to you Mark?
EIGLARSH: Yes.
KELLY: This is from her motion. So, she, I mean, the people who write her briefs sound like children. I assume it's not her.
EIGLARSH: Right.
KELLY: Defendants want to have it both ways, they want the freedom to publicize select aspects of the discovery while requiring the state to follow the law that prevents comments in order to ensure a fair trial for defendants. Right. That is exactly what they want. Right?
EIGLARSH: You know -- my goodness. You know, I learn that when you point your finger outward, you got three pointing back at you, you know.
KELLY: You've used that line before.
EIGLARSH: I know, well to some people it is new. Here's the point, Megyn Kelly, I don't call you out on your lines that you repeat. Here is the point, ok, this should be disseminated, this should be disseminated so people can hear what the evidence is and the answer is change of venue. Let it come out and if you think...
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: No. You can move it to any other city within Maryland and you are fine.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By the way, Megyn, Megyn here's the deal. This is isn't a gag order, it's a protective order.
EIGLARSH: Point your finger outward, you got three pointing back, Megyn. I'm just letting you know.
KELLY: Just letting you know you are rubber and I'm glue.
EIGLARSH: Whatever.
KELLY: I always screw that up. Why do I keep trying? Good to see you both.
Well, there's breaking news tonight on a major league controversy with reports of one professional team hacking into the confidential files of another.
And wait until you who we got to go on the record in this case. Plus, the Donald declaring his run for the White House in true form, Marc Thiessen and James Rosen are up next on the Trump announcement, and why he says his billions of dollars make him the perfect candidate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will be the greatest jobs president that god ever created. I tell you that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the world headquarters of Fox News, it's The Kelly File with Megyn Kelly.
KELLY: New reaction tonight to the Donald declaring his candidacy for president of the United States. Donald Trump, the Real Estate Mogul and Reality TV Star known for his in your face style and larger than life personality, becoming the 12th Republican to enter the race for 2016. The announcement at his lavish Trump Tower at the heart of Manhattan did not disappoint his supporters or his critics. Joining us now Marc Thiessen, who's a Fox News Contributor and Former Chief Presidential Speech Writer for George W. Bush. But we begin tonight with our Chief Washington Correspondent, James Rosen, and James?
JAMES ROSEN, FOX NEWS CHIEFT WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, good evening. Today's announcement was vintage Donald Trump, with the real estate tycoon alternating between boastful swagger and boastful swagger. In a lengthy tour de force, much of it adlibbed and peppered with statements that were either demonstrably true, such as I'm really rich, demonstrably false, there has never been a crowd like this, or impossible to verify, I beat China all the time. Trump zeroed in on China, Japan, and Mexico as economic competitors that he claimed he as the author of the art of the deal would uniquely be able to neutralize.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So they come in, they take our jobs. They take our money and then they loan us back the money, and we pay them in interest. And then the dollar goes up, so their deal is even better. How stupid are our leaders?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEN: Trump also took aim at his Republican rivals, depicting them as confused and clueless with particular venom reserved for Former Florida Governor, Jeb Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They come up to my office, I'm meeting with three of them in the next week. And they don't know -- are you running? Are you not running? Could we have your support? What do we do? How do we do it? You look to Bush, it took him five days to answer the question on Iraq. He couldn't answer the question. He didn't know. I said is he intelligent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEN: Yet despite all of Trump's jabs at foreign capitals and fellow Republicans, the first person to take umbrage at his speech, was Canadian born Rock Legend, Neil Young, whose manager objected to Trump's unauthorized use of rocking in the free world and said well, Neil is committed to democratic candidate, Bernie Sanders. Finally, Trump rebutted forcefully the idea that he is "not a nice person." The candidate noted that he is in fact "a very nice person and gives away a lot of money to charity." No word on whether Trump's next campaign song will be heart of gold, Megyn.
KELLY: James, thank you. He is a nice person. James, stick around and we want to bring Marc Thiessen into the discussion, as well. You know, I realize that he is controversial and his speech today made all sorts of news. But what some perceive as sort of flamboyance and incendiary rhetoric, others perceive as straight talk that the American people appreciate. Am I wrong, Marc?
MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I don't know if you are wrong. I'm sure a segment of the population that appreciates it. But I really don't think that it is what the Republican Party needs. I don't understand what the rationale for the Trump candidacy is. So Republican's are having trouble connecting with ordinary Americans, so let's nominate a super rich business executive to fix America. We tried that in 2012.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: Don't people feel they know him through Celebrity Apprentice franchise, which is very successful? And you know, his name is on everything and so on.
THIESSEN: His name is on everything. He is a celebrity. But he is not a governor. He has never run government. He is a business executive.
KELLY: He made $9 billion.
THIESSEN: He told us repeatedly that he made $9 billion. If you look at the speech, and James maybe you disagree with me, that wasn't a serious substantive speech. He basically went up there and gave a stream of consciousness about what's on Donald Trump's mind at this second. The basic substance of his speech was, I'm really rich and really smart and everybody else is stupid. He referred to other people as stupid, or overrated 15 times in that speech.
KELLY: Is there any chance though, James, people are sitting at home thinking I like that he speaks in way that I speak.
ROSEN: Yeah, he speaks in a language people understand. Ron Paul in his own way had a certain seductive quality to the simplicity of his speech. I think whatever appeal Donald Trump has, it really comes against this back drop of this sluggish economy that we have been enduring since 2007, this sort of non recovery, recovery. And his appeal is, I'm an actual business, I know how to make money, I know how to run things and I know how get balls advance...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: Think about that. We got Carly Fiorina, who's running as a very powerful, female executive. What she has done is run a company, a very successful company, her company -- look at what he's done $9 billion. Don't underestimate the $9 billion. On the other hand Marc Thiessen, he has a history on Twitter, shall we say. I don't think Bette Midler is going to be voting for him. This is just one tweet for the viewers. While that Bette Midler is an extremely unattractive woman, I refuse to say that because I always insist on politically correct. So you know, there have been some tweets. That's all I'm going to say.
THIESSEN: There have been a lot of tweets. He tweets a lot about -- if anyone criticizes him, he is on Twitter which is a little is a little bit beneath the office.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: He is tweeting about you right now, I can feel it.
THIESSEN: I'm sure he will be. But what James described as his message is exactly what Mitt Romney's message was in 2012. It didn't work. Americans didn't want a rich out of touch business executive to be their leader. You have to -- he is going to appeal to a niche of the electorate, he is going to be somewhere in the top 10 percent, which means he's probably, going to be in the debate somewhere.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: That's right. His polls are actually not bad. I got to go but I cannot leave this segment without reminding the audience of this moment, which proves if nothing else, the Donald has a sense of humor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It is mine. I want to keep that hair line as low as possible.
KELLY: It's not that bad.
TRUMP: It's not that bad, is it?
KELLY: Everybody though it was sort you know, comb over but it's not comb over.
TRUMP: It's not comb over, I actually comb it back.
KELLY: Oh I see there is no receding hair line.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: I am getting a little bit older.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: James, he is winning you over. I can see that.
ROSEN: The man has a head of hair. Let's be frank.
KELLY: And it's not a comb over. It's real. It's right there. I touched it myself.
ROSEN: You've seen that by choice.
KELLY: I got to go. Good to see you both. One of my favorite quotes from Donald Trump, Rosie's a loser, she's been a loser for a long time. Identify the date at which the loserdome began and then went forward. I make no comment on its truthfulness or not.
Well new drama tonight over Hillary Clinton, her e-mails and new questions from Republicans about what she may be trying to hide. Congressman Trey Gowdy had a very interesting day today in Washington. He is here next on what his team discovered behind closed doors this afternoon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have absolute confidence that everything that could be in any way connected to work is now in the possession of the State Department.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Or not. That was Former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton defending her use of a private e-mail address and private server when she was America's top diplomat. Mrs. Clinton insisted that her lawyers had filtered through more than 60,000 e-mails and turned over each and every document that was relevant to the business of the State Department. However, today some including the New York Times, raising new questions about Mrs. Clinton's claims after a Clinton insider names Sydney Blumenthal is called before Congress and turns over an additional 120 pages of previously undisclosed e-mails. How did that happen? Republican Congressman of South Carolina, Trey Gowdy is Chairman of the Benghazi Select Committee, whose investigators uncovered these e-mails. Mr. Chairman, good of you to be here tonight. And so you get this guy Sydney Blumenthal in for a deposition today, and last night miraculously, you get e-mails of Hillary Clinton that pertain to Benghazi and Libya?
REP. TREY GOWDY, R-S.C., SELECT HOUSE COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI CHAIRMAN: Yes, ma'am. These are e-mails that would clearly be relevant to either a letter request or subpoena. What I cannot tell you, Megyn is whether Secretary Clinton failed to turn these documents over to the State Department, or whether the State Department failed to turn them over to our committee. I can just tell you that no previous committee, including our committee had ever seen these e-mails or memos until late Friday night.
KELLY: This guy is relevant because she wanted him to work for her at state, and the Obama Administration said no. He is a sketchy figure according to some. They said no, we don't want him. She used him off line, she used him anyway. And usually those in the decision making positions, as Politico outlined today, at these major agencies get vetted intelligence. The Secretary is supposed to get vetted intelligence, not Sydney shooting his thoughts off the top of his head from Libya and he was apparently compromised. Now are you at liberty to discuss all what he told you today? Did he confirm any of that?
GOWDY: Sure, he confirmed the fact that he initially wanted to work for the department of state and the White House nixed that. And he -- not only was he providing unvetted, uncorroborated, unsubstantiated intelligence to our top diplomat, he was just simply forwarding on intelligence that somebody by the name Tyler Drumheller was sending him. He didn't know if the sources were legitimate, he didn't know whether or not the information had been corroborated. He was merely a conduit between somebody who may have had a financial interest in Libya and our nation's top diplomat.
KELLY: She says I have a lot of friends and I stay in touch with them. And what is wrong with receiving a little information from a friend?
GOWDY: Well, that information is as poorly vetted as the information she received from Sydney Blumenthal. That would be a problem. But secondarily, I would tell you this, her other friends are not e-mailing her about Libya, he is. And secondarily, she used the word unsolicited. Megyn, when the e-mails are released, I want you to count the number of times she said keep them coming, this is great, useful information. I don't know what her definition of unsolicited is but it's very strikingly different from my own.
KELLY: In the meantime, everybody wants to know when Hillary Clinton is going to appear before your committee and answer questions. Will it be under oath? And if you don't have a date yet, why don't you?
GOWDY: Yes ma'am, it will be under oath and Secretary Clinton's defense, she has been ready to come before our committee since last fall. In our defense, we didn't know about her e-mail arrangement last fall so that might have been why she was so anxious to come. My condition at present is very simple, the State Department needs to give me all of the e- mails that we have requested from the seventh floor principles, including Huma Abedin, Sheryl Mills...
(CROSSTALK)
GOWDY: Exactly, because she has been insistent that she is coming once, which means I have to be equally insistent that the one time be constructive and productive. So as soon as John Kerry gives us documents that we are entitled to, I will be thrilled to schedule Secretary Clinton.
KELLY: Are you still not getting the e-mails from her staff? On what basis are they retaining those? On what basis they withholding them?
GOWDY: The basis that there is nothing I can do to them if they do, not turn them over, other than cut their appropriations which we have tried to do both Senate and the House appropriators, public shame which doesn't seem to work. I don't have a police force. I can't send somebody over to the State Department to seize these documents.
KELLY: It's up to the honor and the ethics of John Kerry.
GOWDY: He's the one person standing between me and Secretary Clinton having our -- as she put it single conversation.
KELLY: Well, we're looking forward to a second conversation after you have that one here on The Kelly File, great to see you tonight, sir.
GOWDY: Yes ma'am. Thank you.
KELLY: Up next, a major league controversy with reports of one professional sports team hacking into the confidential computer files of another team. And wait until you hear what heavy weight sports figure has just weighed in to Fox News on this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: We have breaking news tonight on major league controversy, with reports of one team hacking into the confidential files of another team, maybe? Trace Gallagher has the story. Trace?
GALLAGHER: Megyn, I got to tell you it's huge, because this would be the first case of any professional sports team hacking into the network of another team. Now officials won't say which Cardinal employees might be involved or the teams' high ranking members were aware of the hack, or possibly authorized it. So far, no one has been suspended or fired. But federal prosecutors have served subpoenas looking for e-mails, texts and other electronic communications. At the center of the hack is a special data base built by the Houston Astros containing scouting reports, information on draft picks and potential trades, in other words, key information about the Astros' future. Both Major League Baseball and the Cardinal's organization are cooperating with the investigation, but neither is commenting. The Cards are currently in first place with the best record in Baseball. The team has reached the National League Championship series 9 times in the past 15 years, and they won the World Series in 2011. Fox's Lead Baseball Announcer, Joe Buck is a Former Cardinal Broadcaster and life long Cardinal fan. And he just weighed in, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BUCK, FOX SPORTS BROADCASTER: You know -- you don't want that for any organization. And if it is the case, if it is true, then I certainly I don't want it for the one that my family has been tied to for this long of a time. But we'll let it all play out. And see what exactly the facts are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: We caught up with Joe because Fox is broadcasting the U.S. Open. The Astros and Cardinals were division rivals until the Astros moved to the American League in 2012. The Astros by the way, are also currently in first place and would like to know who is hacking into their computers.
KELLY: Unbelievable. Trace, thank you. We're going to be right back but first, coming up on "Hannity."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH, 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was touting the fact that governors have to make decisions, senators don't. They can hide behind the collective body. I wasn't calling out any particular senator. But the simple fact is governors have to balance budgets in this country. And they have to make decisions. And they have to do things that sometimes aren't popular. And they also have to bring people together to try to solve problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Tomorrow we've got Dana Perino, Brian Kilmeade and Howie Kurtz. Plus, on Thursday night a "Kelly File" exclusive, the Oklahoma woman who was nearly beheaded by a radicalized co-worker, moments after he beheaded another employee. Tracy Johnson speaks to the nation for the first time since she was attacked right here in a powerful exchange.
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