This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," June 12, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, GUEST HOST: Breaking tonight, live pictures of the Plattsburg City court in upstate New York where we are awaiting the arraignment now of Joyce Mitchell. She is the prison worker who police say helped the two convicted killers to escape from that maximum security prison. And as we have been reporting tonight there is a manhunt underway that has continued for a week now for Richard Matt and David Sweat. They broke out of the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora by cutting holes in their cell walls and then through a steam pipe and sliding out through a manhole to what they thought would be an awaiting car but it was not last Saturday last Saturday.
Now Joyce Mitchell is charged with two felonies which were just announced this evening and they could mean possibly up to eight years in prison. We will going to bring you that live, take you to the arraignment process as soon as that gets underway.
Also breaking tonight, just 24 hours away from what is being billed as the re-launch of Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. The question is, when will the presumptive democratic candidate for president address these scandals. The questions that had been hounding her campaign since she got started two months ago.
Welcome to "The Kelly File" tonight, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in for Megyn Kelly. So you can call it whatever you like, a rel-aunch, do over, a mulligans some might say. What will Mrs. Clinton reveal at her first big campaign style rally tomorrow? Here in New York City, she has been on the trail for 60 days. Not one single sit down interview yet with a reporter. So, the questions still have zero answers. The secret e-mail server, the questionable donations to the Clinton Foundation. The big money payouts to former President Bill Clinton from foreigners with business before his wife's state department. But tomorrow we are told we won't get any of them either.
Joining us now tonight, Fox News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt on this latest phase of the Clinton campaign. And Howard Kurtz on how the media is likely to cover it because they are a little pesky, because they haven't been talked to. But first, we begin with chief White House correspondent Ed Henry who just filed this report.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Martha, this is really Hillary Clinton's third reintroduction to the American people. Last year she tried to connect with the middle class by claiming when the Clintons left the White House, they were dead broke. That fell flat given the big money speeches and book advances that brought in $25 million in 2014. Then the April launch of course of the Scooby Doo van followed by carefully stage events and largely dodging media questions. So, tomorrow is Hillary 3.0. An advisers say, one goal is to answer questions she never really got to in her failed run in 2008. What is the rationale for running? Here is her teaser video for tomorrow's speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Every day Americans and their families need a champion, a champion who will fight for them every single day. And I want to be that champion. I want to get up every single day going to work for you, standing up for you. And I think by now people know I don't quit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Clinton still has a dominant position in the democratic primaries and beats most Republicans in the hypothetical head to head matchups but she has at least two big challenges. First, that narrative about being a fighter. Today, the President's trade push went down in flames without her taking a firm position. She did not fight because of political pressure from the left. Then look at this poll from the conservative group American Crossroads, they asked in battleground states, is Hillary Clinton honest and trustworthy, 43 percent agree. Fifty four percent disagree. So, is the Clinton Foundation now taking its toll on her? We will be watching closely tomorrow to see how big or small is the role of former President Bill Clinton at her first major public rally. He was in damage control this week saying, he may not take those big money speeches if she is elected -- Martha.
MACCALLUM: All right. Thanks to Ed Henry for that. Joining us now Chris Stirewalt, Fox News digital politics editor. So, Chris, she wants to work every day, she wants to be a champion for the American people. How is that message going to go this time in the relaunched?
CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Well, all I can say is would that, were all of the reporters were like our own Ed Henry and talked about the context for this instead of -- remember, this is not just the first time Hillary Clinton has talked about her mom. She used her now late mother in her 2008 campaign in Iowa. When she was hit in the -- in 2008 in Iowa, she deployed her mom, she deployed this same message, this is the same message that Hillary Clinton goes to when she is in trouble which is, my mother suffered. I have suffered. I have endured. I will continue to endure. But in this case what she is suffering from are scandals of her and her husband's own making. It was her decision to use that server. It was her husband's decision to take those moneys. It was her decision to have Sydney Blumenthal on retainer at the family foundation doing business in Libya and speeding her information in the back channel. All of this stuff she did to herself. So, I think it is going to be hard to make --
MACCALLUM: It's an interesting comparison because we remember last time in New Hampshire, the tears, you know, the moment when things weren't looking so great. She had this surprise guy come out of nowhere and really pulls a huge threat to her and he became president of the United States. So now she is doing it for the last time essentially. She is back in it. So, my question is, if she can't do that connection, if she can't convince people, look, this is what I have worked for my whole life, I'm here for you, I am your champion as she said in that first rollout and as she's going to say, what she goes through is about -- this weekend. You know, can she win? Can she beat the Republicans if she doesn't have that connection? If she can't successfully pull that off, Chris?
STIREWALT: Yes. Well, the Republicans certainly are capable of screwing this up from pen to post.
MACCALLUM: No doubt.
STIREWALT: There is no question about that. What she ultimately will have to do to win, she is not going to gain the trust of the American electorate. That is not going to happen. She has too much baggage and she reminded everybody of what a disaster all of that stuff can be.
MACCALLUM: A lot of people like her, Chris. I mean, she is still doing far better in the numbers than any of these republican candidates.
STIREWALT: Well, that's not so. She is not doing far better than any other. She is essentially in a tie with Walker, Rubio, Bush, sometimes --
MACCALLUM: Depends on what you look at.
STIREWALT: Depends on what you look at. But the point is she can certainly win but she is not going to win on trust. What she is going to win on is confidence that she can get the job done that maybe she is not your dream date but she is going to get the job done and get you there.
MACCALLUM: All right. Chris, thank you very much.
STIREWALT: You bet.
MACCALLUM: So, what can we expect from the media's coverage? We talked to Chris about how people will react. But how about the media? Because they have gotten a little testy about the fact that Hillary hasn't really spoken personally to them. Now the relaunch comes.
And Howie Kurtz is the host of "MediaBuzz" that airs Sundays of course on Fox News. Howie, how are you doing?
HOWIE KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST, "MEDIABUZZ": Great, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, this is the question. Remember the Chipotle thing with the big glasses and the sort of guarded moments and the Scooby Van, remember the press running across the lawn?
KURTZ: Seems like all yesterday.
MACCALLUM: So now, she hasn't like the press, she never has, she basically admits it. Is she going to change the relationship now?
KURTZ: Well, she is going to change the story line. And I predict right here that the press is going to lap up this new warmer mother loving Hillary. It is a new plot twist. And also, we are so easily seduced by personality over policy. Look at the front page headline of the Washington Post today. It channels Tom Petty, she won't back down. Can you imagine Ted Cruz also has a kind of a -- getting that headline in a paper like the post?
MACCALLUM: Yes. Probably not.
KURTZ: Probably not.
MACCALLUM: But still, the interviews have not happened. I mean, she is going to pace this thing. Right, Howie? I mean, she doesn't need to sit down and do that big interview right now. And she is hoping that the farther she gets away from these stories about the server, the stories about the foundation and the more crowded the whole conversation gets with other things, that it will kind of tap down, really?
KURTZ: I would argue she has paid a price not because she's hurt the feelings of journalists. Nobody cares about us. But unlike Jeb Bush who is taking questions regularly and therefore each particular encounter is not high stakes drama, but having the scripted choreographed events for two months, she has left a newsless vacuum that has been filled by aggressive stories and pretty aggressive mainstream media reporting about e-mails and Clinton Foundation and high speaking fees and of course stiffing the press. And so I don't think she can play this strategy out forever. The longer she does it the more pent up questions with that will be raised.
MACCALLUM: There are other ways to get to people. We have social media. We have Twitter. We have Facebook. There are other ways. We don't really need to go through the press. I think they're going to do it as little as they possibly can.
KURTZ: Well, all campaigns try to control access in that sense. But yes, she has a million ways to use in the internet and social media. But, here's the thing. I think American voters want to see their presidential candidates hitting the top pitching, taking the questions, showing they can do it, showing they can stand up to aggressive anchors. That is how the game is played. It's changed of course. But I think that it's not going to be another six months before we see an interview with Hillary Clinton.
MACCALLUM: How much bill are we going to see?
KURTZ: I think we are not going to see that much bill this year. Every time he gives an interview he says something slightly different than she said and they have to clean it up. But, you know, he is Bill Clinton. He is not going to stay completely off the radar.
MACCALLUM: I think they are going to speak according to what we are learning so far but they will be there, the family foundation all together. Thank you very much, Howie.
KURTZ: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: We'll see how it goes. We'll see you on Sunday too.
So, breaking news in the search for two extremely dangerous killers who escaped from a prison now a week ago. We are waiting for an arraignment. Big news tonight in this story on one of the key players in this case and we will bring you that live.
Plus, fighting ISIS on the chief? That's what some critics are saying about the President's latest deployment of U.S. troops.
Pete Hegseth on why this is not the way he believes to fix the failed plan. And a controversy surrounding this. Have you seen this story today? That NAACP leader and what it has to do with her race. Those are both the same woman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I was wondering if your dad really is an African- American man.
RACHEL DOLEZAL, SPOKANE NAACP PRESIDENT: That's a very -- I mean, I don't know what you're implying.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Are you African-American?
DOLEZAL: I don't understand the question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight, we are waiting for the arraignment of the prison worker Joyce Mitchell on charges related to her helping these two convicted killers escape from the maximum security prison in Dannemora, New York. So, earlier tonight, Joyce Mitchell was arrested, she was charged with providing contraband to the inmates and helping the facilitate their escape. But tonight both men and she allegedly helped set free are still out there. There have been no confirmed sightings of David Sweat or Richard Matt since the escape six days ago.
Matthew Fogg is a former chief deputy U.S. marshal and he joins me now. Good to have you with U.S. tonight, Matthew. A lot of speculation about where these guys might have gone, whether or not they are together at this point. The officials today say they believe they are. What do you think?
MATTHEW FOGG, FORMER CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL (on the phone): Well, Erin, I believe they may be together only for the fact that we don't have anything that says they are not together. So, the bottom-line is that is the last information that we have when they escaped. But normally what -- it's been in my and I tracked down hundreds of fugitives but normally when these folks go to AWOL like that or come out of the prison like that, one of the biggest things they want to do is they want to try to get away from each other because they know they are more of a target when they're hanging together.
FOGG: Than if they just separate and go on their own way. But in this case knowing that possibly the getaway car didn't arrive therefore they were on foot. But I still believe they have a spot where they knew they wanted to go. It is probably somebody or something with them where they have supplies they need and they've hunker down somewhere and just waiting for the authorities to clear out.
MACCALLUM: Yes. That's what I was going to ask you because seven days. You know, they thought they were going to be greeted with an arriving car from Joyce Mitchell when they came out of the manhole. And you can just imagine the moment when they are looking around and she is not there and she is not there and she is not there. And they have to come up with plan B and they head up into the woods. This is a very densely wooded area as we've seen it, it's in Cadyville, about three miles from the prison is the area that they zeroed in on.
MACCALLUM: But, you know, if they are out there and they're not in a safe house they need food, they need water. I mean, eventually they will going to start arguing. Things aren't going as well as planned. What is the dynamic?
FOGG: Well, see, again, I don't know. Because one of the guys had escaped before. So, these guys are very savvy. And they have an elaborate escape the way they went out this institution. I just don't believe they didn't have several contingency plans. I believe that, as a matter of fact, to be honest with you I'm not even sure if they really -- it's a chance they may not have wanted her. They may just have told her we want you to meet us but knowing all along, they had another way out. So, there are several things that could have happened here especially when talking about the fact that there is no real positive solid sightings. They have the dogs that picked up the scent. You have had some things like that but we don't really exactly know where they are. And there is a lot of time.
MACCALLUM: Very true. They talked about seeing footprints at the gas station --
MACCALLUM: -- that they think could be attributed to them. I want to get your thoughts too on the arraignment tonight which we are waiting for. It's going to happen very shortly of Joyce Mitchell. This woman who worked in the tailors room at the prison --
MACCALLUM: -- apparently befriended one of these guys probably Richard Matt it sounds like. How many other people would have had to be involved in this, do you think? And how surprising is it that she was able, that they were able to sort of work her into their good graces and helped them pull this off.
FOGG: Well, they were in the honors section. So, that in itself says, for her, that was these are people that are supposedly being trusted by the system. And then on top of that I have seen that before, you know, working and taking people to prisons and working with correctional institutions around the country, there are many situations where correctional officers or guards have gotten involved with the inmates. So bottom-line is yes, that could have happened. But when you start talking about somebody bringing hack saw blades and stuff like that and material for someone to escape, that is pretty heavy there, that's pretty deep. And I would think that if they were, if that is what she did as authorities have, you know, indicated seems like to me that, you know, that's very troublesome there.
MACCALLUM: We have got some quick answer here. But what about Canada? It's really not that far from the border. Likely they went that way?
FOGG: That is the way I would have gone, I would have hit because I would know that authorities would not want to put the resources and they're looking for these guys the same way they would in the United States. Canadian authorities are very helpful. And we have a great relationship with all folks but when you start talking about the concentrated effort that we've got like we have got going on here, they just wouldn't have these resources that I don't think they would be doing that in Canada. So, these folks know that and they're savvy enough to understand that.
MACCALLUM: Thank you, Matthew.
MACCALLUM: Good to have you with us tonight.
FOGG: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: We will going to bring you that arraignment live as soon as that gets underway. Also, the President taking some serious heat for sending just a few hundred advisers to beef up the fight against ISIS. Why Pete Hegseth says, this is not the way to turn this failed plan.
Plus, the controversy surrounding SeaWorld and its treatment of killer whales. Tonight, John Stossel has an exclusive look at his new special that is getting quite a bit of attention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN STOSSEL, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: SeaWorld separates whales from their mothers.
KELLY FLAHERTY CLARK, SEAWORLD HEAD TRAINER: We haven't done that in 35 years, we have no plans to do it again. And the film implies that we are doing it yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Developing tonight. Growing concerns over the President's plan to beef up the fight against ISIS by sending fewer than 500 troops to Iraq in supposedly noncombat roles. Some critics are suggesting that the President is simply trying to re-create the ultimately successful Iraq surge but doing that far fewer numbers and far less money and equipment and everything else. Our next guest says that this is not the strategy, the strategy that's failed in Iraq. This is not one that will put it in better shape and that it may also lead to the kind of growth of a mission creep as we saw at least in Vietnam.
Pete Hegseth is a Fox News contributor and CEO of Concerned Veterans for America. Rich Lowery is a national review editor and a FOX News contributor. Welcome, gentlemen. Good to have you both here.
Lily Pads Martin Dempsey talked about Pete Hegseth, bases that, you know, are in different places across the area and that has a lot of people saying, you know, what? This is the way Vietnam started and here we go again.
PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Sure. The incremental approach without a strategy doesn't improve the strategy. And when you talk about Lilly Pads that is a legitimate logistical technique, a temporary base. But what kind of signal does that send to the folks that we are attempting to help. Come to our Lilly Pad temporarily and then go out and fight ISIS? And then we might leave soon after that. I mean, we clearly don't have the will to see this through. And the incremental approach doesn't reinforce for our enemies or our allies that we are in this to ultimately defeat or degrade ISIS. So, if this is an attempt at a surge, this is a real poor man surge. Because we haven't committed to the mission. Four hundred fifty additional troops to train. Only 50 of those are actually going to train. Most are logistical support. This isn't a real plus-up, this is just covering over a failed strategy.
MACCALLUM: And the surge which worked was about 150,000 --
HEGSETH: Hundred and fifty thousand at the height of that.
MACCALLUM: Hundred and fifty thousand American soldiers on the ground fighting alongside Iraqi troops and incorporating the Sunni tribes as well. And that was really the key, the Sunni awakening as it's been called where there has been no effort at this point to get these Sunni tribes, to join this effort because we have this tricky relationship with Iran and seems they don't want to tick them off by asking these guys to help out.
RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: Right. Right. And obviously, to the extent we seem to be friendly towards Iran is going to alienate every potential Sunni ally in the region including those Sunni tribes. And the reason why the Sunni tribes aligned with us last time is they knew we were there, they knew we were serious and we meant business and we are going to win. And now given the events that we pulled out and we have a very insufficient commitment now, why would they trust us again and that's a huge question mark on this whole operation.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Why would they trust us? And another huge question here is, why should our own soldiers and marines trust this effort? And I saw last night on this program a veteran who said, you know, that even in recent years he had a hard time explaining to his family what he was doing, what the mission was that he was carrying out. And that becomes another problem Pete and it raises that very important question. Don't send one person, not one person if you are not there to win --
HEGSETH: That's right.
MACCALLUM: -- and to win completely because people are going to die in this mission. And they don't have a good leadership.
HEGSETH: That's all that trigger puller wants to know on the ground is that somebody has got their back, A, and that B, they have a clear mission that they're going to be given every tool necessary to succeed at. And right now, we're tying our hands behind with the restrictive rules engagement. We're not letting them leave the base. You know, Joe Biden once said, we will follow them to the gates of hell. How are we going to follow them on the gates of hell if we can't even leave the gates of your base? We literally aren't willing to pursue and go after ISIS in any meaningful way whatsoever and we're training a force that's a shell, a hallow shell of what it used to be in the Iraqi army.
MACCALLUM: You make a good point about nobody being -- who is in charge? I mean -- if you think about Odierno, if you ask any American, you know, who is running this thing, right?
LOWRY: Yes. You need a strategy and then you need someone to run it and then you need the resources. And someone was reminding me today, key moment in the debate, internal Bush administration debate over the surge, a general was advocating something short of what would have been the full surge and the key question someone asked in that room was, will it be decisive? And the answer was no, so they went bigger. Clearly the Obama administration is not thinking in those terms at all.
MACCALLUM: Gentlemen, thank you.
HEGSETH: Thank you.
LOWRY: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Very serious conversation that needs to be had at the highest levels about how this is going to be fought and how it's going to be won as we say, if one person is going to be put out there to carry that flag.
All right. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Good to have you both here. So, back to breaking news that we are waiting for this evening and the search for two extremely dangerous killers who escaped from prison a week ago, the arraignment is about to happen for one of the key players in this case, an arrest tonight in this case for Joyce Mitchell. We're going to bring that to you live.
And next, this curious story from today. The NAACP president who is coming under fire today after her own parents came forward and called her out. What they said about their daughter. This is one woman you are looking at here. Got everyone talking today.
MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight. We are awaiting the arraignment of a prison worker arrested for helping two convicted murderers escape. Joyce Mitchell worked in the tailor shop of a maximum security prison in Upstate, New York. But then she got involved apparently according to these charges in something pretty big. She allegedly supplied these fugitives Richard Matt and David Sweat with some of the tools that they needed to break out, not the power tools according to what we heard.
As we've been reporting, that a manhunt is underway. We've been reporting that a week. It ranges from New York all the way to Vermont border and as we just talked about, what about Canada which is just north of the area. So, when that arraignment does begin, we will take you there live.
Also developing tonight, the controversy surrounding the leader of the NAACP Chapter in Spokane, Washington. Very odd story that has emerged today. Rachel Dolezal is accused of lying about her race. Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast Newsroom tonight with that story.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR, WEST COAST NEWSROOM: Hi, Martha. She's been called out as a fraud, but instead of apologizing, 37-year-old Rachel Dolezal is doubling down telling a Spokane TV station that she does consider herself black and is the rest of us who don't understand the definition of race and ethnicity.
Dolezal says she is black and white. Her birth parents say she is German and Czech, and they have pictures and birth certificate to support their claim. The parents say Dolezal does have adoptive siblings who are black and she attended a mostly black school in Mississippi but that is as far as it goes. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knows it's false, but I think she has told herself, as well as she has told others that erroneous identity of hers enough that by now she may believe it more than she believes the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: Rachel Dolezal says she no longer considers them her parents. She has posted pictures on social media describing this older African-American man as her father. But watch what happened when a local Spokane reporter confronted her about her so-called dad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he African-American?
DOLEZAL: I don't understand the question of -- I did tell you that yes that's my dad, and he was unable to come in January.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are your parents -- are they white?
DOLEZAL: I'm not --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: It's not just her ethnicity being challenged. Dolezal says she was raised in a teepee and hunted for food with a bow and arrow and that because she's back, she's been the victim of hate crime, saying, she once found and envelope in the NAACP Post Office Box with pictures of lynchings. The Post Office says, there was no postage on the envelope and whoever pout it in the box had a key.
Dolezal's parents say, she went to Howard University on a Full Ride Scholarship because she said she was black. She now teaches a class at Eastern Washington University called the black woman's struggle, but the NAACP says she has got a good president and a key social justice advocate.
Here she is last month with Baltimore State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby. The Spokane NAACP says quoting here, "One's racial identity is not a qualifying criteria or disqualifying standard for NAACP leadership. The NAACP stands behind Ms. Dolezal's advocacy record ,and for now,. it appears she will remain the president. Martha?
MACCALLUM: OK. Trace, thank you. This is an unusual story on many levels. Joining me now to talk about this Richard Fowler, nationally syndicated radio host, Chris Harris, the executive director of Unhyphenated America.org and A. Scott Bolden, a criminal defense attorney and former member of the NAACP.
Gentlemen, welcome. Very good to have all of you with us tonight.
A. SCOTT BOLDEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you for having me.
MACCALLUM: Chris, I want to start.
CHRIS HARRIS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF UNHYPHENATED AMERICA.ORG: Yes.
MACCALLUM: . with you. What -- what do you make of this?
HARRIS: When I first heard the story, I just kind of smiled because I found myself sitting or thinking, well the number one question is, is she black? And then, of course, you know, I found myself sitting or thinking, well it depends upon what the meaning of the word is, is and, of course, at this point, what difference does it make? I mean, if that's what she feels, we're in the world, right.
MACCALLUM: And I'm afraid (ph), this sounds oddly familiar.
HARRIS: Yeah, it sounds -- it sounds familiar, you know, we're in the world, where, you know, however someone.
HARRIS: . feels is what matters.
HARRIS: I mean, Bruce Jenner is a woman. So, why can't she be black? I mean, that's.
MACCALLUM: And he feels more like a woman than a man.
HARRIS: Because she feels like that.
MACCALLUM: And this woman.
HARRIS: That's the world we live in now.
MACCALLUM: . feels more black than white even though her parents, according to the nice people that we saw on the spin (ph) earlier, and I'm sure the other man that she says is her dad is also very nice, but her parents said that they're her parents, and they're both white and they say that she is of Czech and German descent. I mean, it's -- the whole thing is so weird. Scott, what do you think is going on here?
BOLDEN: Well, let me say this. I -- when you said Bruce Jenner, I started thinking about trans-racial and then who knows what -- where that's going to go viral one way or the other or not. But let me just say this, her good works, her desire to be black or to help color -- communities of color is fine.
My problem is the deception. That when you claim a race, when you claim a culture, when claim a history that is not yours, that is one of the greatest deceptions you can have.
BOLDEN: And you couple that with claiming a scholarship, claiming a black father and a black son, claiming a job in public commission that she has because she's black and filled up forms saying she's black that can almost be illegal. And so I think, this is really not about her race or what she chooses to be because we know that white abolitionists for over the course of history slave (ph) have always had biracial support for black causes and civil rights causes.
BOLDEN: And hear (ph) here -- the thing is, that she didn't have to do this.
BOLDEN: She can be white and do all of these great things.
BOLDEN: And so -- and so the discussion.
MACCALLUM: She could say, I was raised with, you know, with that (ph) -- with siblings.
MACCALLUM: . who were adopted, who were black and very close to them. I'm, you know.
MACCALLUM: . I understand, you know, the cause that we're fighting for here and I'm very qualified to lead this organization. But that is not what she said and that is not what she checked off on the boxes. And.
BOLDEN: Right. The deception is unnecessary. This is unnecessary.
MACCALLUM: And you know, race is a central question here, Richard. And I want to -- I want to address this to you. Does this mean, you know, at this point, and you bring up Caitlyn Jenner and Bruce Jenner and we're talking about this woman who says she feels more black than white.
So, what -- why don't we dump all the boxes that we check off in life?
Right? Why don't we skip it? You know, Because we're all Americans. Why do we need to have an NAACP at this point, Richard and different organizations that represent different groups? If we're all just to going to be what we feel.
RICHARD FOWLER, NATIONALLY SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: Here's the thing. Thanks for having me, Martha.
MACCALLUM: You bet (ph).
FOWLER: One, I think the NAACP serves a valuable cause to sort promote social, you know, justice and liberty under the law for every single American whether they're black, white, red, yellow or purple and they've always stood for that and her work whether separate and apart from her, you know.
MACCALLUM: And why not just call, you know, the organization for the advancement of people?
FOWLER: Well, here's the thing, her -- her work in the organization is separate and apart from the fact that she happens to be Caucasian or happens to be black. Her work will speak for itself, and I think that's where the sad part here and the irony. But I want to say the distinction.
MACCALLUM: Agree (ph).
FOWLER: . between what we see here and the Jenner -- the Jenner case, is in the Jenner case the DSM 5 was just came out a couple of months ago, says that transgenderism is actually something that you can be according to all the medical and professionals out there. You can be transgender. This idea of waking up one day and just saying, "I'm black" is completely and totally separate and apart from that.
MACCALLUM: Chris, do you agree?
HARRIS: I absolutely disagree with that. I have to disagree. I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, listen, I was being sarcastic in the beginning. It's, you know, we're in -- we're in Lala (ph) land where with all this -- and on top of that, one of the problems I have with her is that she was trying to take advantage of a special protected class.
You know, and as Mr. Bolden said, I mean, it was deception outright which is crazy because if, you know the history of the NAACP, I mean, of the -- the approximately 13 people who are regarded as founders like 10 of them are white.
HARRIS: . you know, and --and the first national president was white. I mean, the only.
HARRIS: . person who is a member of the -- the executive committee, the officers was W.E.B. Du Bois in the beginning.
HARRIS: So, I mean, it is an organization of socialist minded people who got all -- they were (ph) not fighting for equality -- and are not equality under the law but basically fighting for special privileges and.
MACCALLUM: You made a great point.
FOWLER: Wait -- just wait one second. I mean, if you're talking about the statement of what you have fought (ph) for Brown versus the Board of Education or the state NAACP who passed the Voting Rights Act and socialism, then I would take socialism for 500, Alex. But I think what we're talking about as an organization that has always stood up for the rights of people, the rights of people to vote, the rights of people to go to desegregated schools.
FOWLER: . the right of people to live in normal communities no matter what.
BOLDEN (?): But they are not fighting for the rights for parents.
FOWLER: . that's the NAACP.
BOLDEN (?): . who got to put their kids in one of the schools they want to put their kids in.
MACCALLUM: You know, did you think the -- did, you know, there's something -- maybe we should have a psychologist on because it's odd.
MACCALLUM: . when you work for these organizations, you just pointed and discuss in the history, she didn't need to say that she was anything other than, you know, the heritage that she is and she could have argued that she was qualified to lead this organization, but that's not what she did which is what makes it so odd and the fact that her parents, you know, or the people who outed her is also kind of odd.
Scott, before we got, I want to ask you, do you actually -- do you think there are charges that could be filed here? You mentioned that.
BOLDEN: Well, absolutely. At the local level and federal level depending on how she filled out these applications whether it was at Howard University or for the Public Police Commission, she had to fill it out bringing (ph) out the race because these public -- these public documents if you want a racially and gender balanced commission, for example, that's important. That scholarship money is federal money that came through Howard, now, that was years ago, so it's probably a moot issue right now.
BOLDEN: But the reality is they are investigating her locally right now, to see whether she lied on a federal application. Because we all know that anytime you submit a document to the federal government at the end of every application or document it is, is that you're -- you're making a sworn statement that you are telling the truth.
BOLDEN: And the fact to the matter is, if she checked black or checked black and some other ethnic background then she's lied to the local, as well as federal government.
BOLDEN: Now, what comes to that who know, but the reality is the deception about this story is the problem for her, not her great work or commitment to.
BOLDEN: . communities of color.
MACCALLUM: I go back to the main point which is maybe we don't need boxes anymore which is just forget the boxes.
BOLDEN: Ban the boxes.
MACCALLUM: Ban the boxes.
HARRIS: Objection (ph). Senator Warren actually, I mean, what about Senator Warren checking the box for...
HARRIS: . you know, for group of Americans.
MACCALLUM: At this point in American history we've all got a lot.
HARRIS: Why did she do that?
MACCALLUM: . of things, you know, that we could dig up in our background and check lots of boxes. Maybe we should just bag them.
MACCALLUM: .all together.
MACCALLUM: Gentlemen, thank you.
BOLDEN: I think.
MACCALLUM: Thank you so much.
FOWLER: Thank you, Martha.
HARRIS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: For me, I'll leave it there, but thank you so much for being here tonight.
FOWLER: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, it's being called the most radical change that President Obama has ever attempted. The fight could now be heading to your neighborhood. Why our next guest says that he believes this is unrealistic Ethiopian idea. We'll tell you what we're talking about here.
Plus, the controversy surrounding Sea World and it treatment of killer whales. An exclusive John Stossel's new look at the new special getting a lot of attention. We'll talk to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The movie "Blackfish" says whales kept in marine parks are miserable. But how would they know? As the movie points out, we can't ask the whales what they think.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: New reaction to a big push by the Obama administration to diversify America cities. They call it a plan to promote fair housing choice. Critics said this is most radical politically explosive change that President Obama has attempted in his six plus years in office. Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar, sponsored an amendment passed by the House this week that would block this plan, but this fight is not over, and he joins us now.
Congressman, welcome. Good to have you here tonight.
PAUL GOSAR, ARIZONA CONGRESSMAN: Thanks, Martha. Thanks for having me.
MACCALLUM: So, explain (ph) -- you know, everybody is familiar with Section 8, with housing, you know, where you have to have low income housing, a certain amount in each town, in each city.
MACCALLUM: How is this different?
GOSAR: But what this is, is actually going in and further doing something that is already illegal. You can't actually discern or discriminate against somebody's race, economics, gender or anything else. And so what this is doing is micromanaging our local planning and zoning areas and determining where somebody will work or will live and who the neighbors are going to be, and the federal government will know everything about that.
MACCALLUM: But as I understand it the city or the entity can't be -- have to go under this influence unless they apply for the grant so then once they get the grant money what is attached to the grant money is that they have to build these houses and place, you know, condos, apartments, places to live in wealthier areas, correct?
GOSAR: That's -- that's partially correct. You know, the federal government has the jurisdiction of pulling that money back just like when Wyoming want -- didn't want to get abide by the 18-year-old Drinking Law.
GOSAR: They took away their funding from the highway.
GOSAR: . and well (ph) the federal government can be persuasive when they coerce that type of dictation.
MACCALLUM: All right. So, what happens now? Your amendment passed in the House. How likely.
MACCALLUM: . is it that it shuts it down?
GOSAR: Well, this is our part and so this is the House and so the Senate will have to take it. They will have to be part of the Cromnibus or Omnibus bill (ph) that you're in and hopefully that will be part of the language of the spending bills that limit nobody can spend money in enforcement of this law. And then what we've got to do is -- is either pass a standalone bill that forbids this type of action, otherwise.
GOSAR: . every year we have to do the same thing. We have to do limitation amendments that the federal and T-HAD (ph) cannot actually spend money to have jurisdiction over this application or the way this money is being used.
MACCALLUM: As you say, what's the worst thing about this for communities?
GOSAR: To trust them. I mean, you know, right now, we've got an overbearing government, Martha. They tell us what water we can drink, what trails we -- we can walk on, now the neighborhoods that we are going to live in and the -- the trains that we'll take and -- and the jobs that we're going to have. It's overreaching and -- and these decisions are made at the local level where we trust politicians to be where government works best.
MACCALLUM: Yeah, some people think this can become a big issue in the elections, wow.
GOSAR: They will be.
MACCALLUM: . as it goes there. Congressman, thank you very much. Good to have you here tonight.
GOSAR: Thank you, Martha. Good day (ph).
MACCALLUM: I want to get you back to this breaking news. We're awaiting for an arraignment of a key player in the escape of two dangerous killers from a maximum security prison and when that happens we're going to take you there live.
And next, John Stossel on the killer whale controversy and SeaWorld.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN STOSSEL, HOST OF "STOSSEL" ON FBN: Kelly Flaherty Clark, a SeaWorld's head trainer, she says "Blackfish" is completely deceitful.
KELLY FLAHERTY CLARK, SEAWORLD'S HEAD TRAINER: The things they describe just didn't happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, we are awaiting the arraignment right now of a New York city prison worker who was arrested for helping two convicted murderers escape. The arrest came through tonight. We're about to see that arraignment. She allegedly gave them supplies to help Richard Matt and David Sweat get out of that prison and aided their escape. So, when that gets underway, we're go to take you there live. Molly Line is setting up in Plattsburg, New York for that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STOSSEL: Are you whales being cruelly imprisoned here?
The movie "Blackfish" has whales kept in marine parks are miserable. But how would they know? As the movie points out, we can't ask the whales what they think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't speak whale. We don't speak whale. We doing speak tiger (ph). We don't speak monkey.
CLARK: I know I don't speak whale but I know the whales are doing well because I interact with them each and every day.
STOSSEL: But how do you know? You can't -- maybe they're miserable.
CLARK: They breathe, they swim, they play. They anticipate seeing us. They enjoy interacting with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Well, there you have it. That was John Stossel taking the accusations about SeaWorld -- two (ph) SeaWorld. And part of this new special green tyranny and then it airs Sunday night at 9 o'clock Eastern on FNC. So, SeaWorld's cruelty to whales isn't the only progressive talking point that is put into the test. He also tackles recycling, the Keystone Pipeline, those protests and what he calls the Church of climate change.
John, good to see you. You also say that we're no longer worry about - - we're not a NIMBY society. We are a banana society which I found fascinating. So, what's banana society?
STOSSEL: NIMBY is not in my backyard.
STOSSEL: You can build it there now. It's like the pipeline, banana, build absolutely nothing anywhere near anybody.
MACCALLUM: OK. All right. Banana. So, SeaWorld, gotten a lot of heat with the special that was aired, killer -- we're saying both of our daughters watched it, "Oh, my gosh, they're ruining these poor whales' lives, will -- are they?"
STOSSEL: I don't think so. I saw the film and.
MACCALLUM: But you don't really know because you don't speak whale.
STOSSEL: I don't speak whale. So, I know if my dog is happy, I don't speak dog.
MACCALLUM: I was thinking the same thing. They wag their tail.
STOSSEL: We could see the relationship. But the movie is horrifying and you -- you hear -- they take the baby whales from the mother and the mother stays by shore. And she cries this mournful cry. The dorsal fin is collapsed. And that shows how unhappy they are, and they're frustrated and they attack people and they attack each other.
MACCALLUM: They killed the trainer (ph) at SeaWorld.
STOSSEL: And they die -- they kill the trainer. And they die young. But while the trainer was killed, the rest of it, is just not true. They don't die young. We consulted whale experts. They live about the same length of time in captivity, the.
MACCALLUM: Are they taken away from their mothers?
STOSSEL: Thirty-five years ago, yes, SeaWorld did that. In fact, I -- I asked them about that. I think she answers it here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STOSSEL: SeaWorld separates whales from their mothers?
CLARK: We haven't done that in 35 years. We have no plans to do it, again, and the film implies that we're doing it yesterday.
STOSSEL: Kelly Flaherty Clark, the SeaWorld's head trainer. She said Blackfish is completely deceitful.
CLARK: The things that they described just didn't happen.
STOSSEL: The SeaWorld's head veterinarian says, this is the life then whales know.
CHRIS DOLD, SEAWORLD'S HEAD VETERINARIAN: Eighty percent of whales that we care for within parks were born right here. The key difference between what our whales experienced over their lives and what killer whales in the wild experienced is the fact that there are people there. Our trainers are there working with them every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STOSSEL: So, you can make an argument that animals shouldn't be imprisoned in zoos or animal burden -- marine animal parks like this. But the movie is deceitful. That collapsed dorsal fin. That happens in the wild, too. And they play this mournful cry of the poor sad mother whale. It wasn't that whale. They faked that scene. So, I'm suspicious of so much in Blackfish. And see it Ranada (ph) thousand times and bragged about how.
MACCALLUM: Got a lot -- a lot of attention. But they didn't speak to the people of SeaWorld in Blackfish, right?
STOSSEL: No, they tried. Well, Blackfish tried and SeaWorld turned them down. SeaWorld turned down CNN, but they did talk to us. I think they're waking up now that they better speaking to the media.
MACCALLUM: Yeah. So, did you talk to either -- any of the killer whales? I saw you trying to communicate with them through glass there.
STOSSEL: They wouldn't answer. I don't.
MACCALLUM: They were shaking their head no. We're fine John Stossel.
STOSSEL: I think they were taught to do that. So, I.
MACCALLUM: Did they look happy?
STOSSEL: Yeah, but how do I know?
Not going to judge it by that.
MACCALLUM: Dr. Doolittle. All right. John, thank you very much. It was great!
STOSSEL: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Green Tyranny, 9 o'clock on you can watch that on Sunday night 9 pm Eastern. Green Tyranny right here on Fox News Channel. And thank you John for being here. It looks great.
So, we're going to go back to the breaking news in just a moment. The arraignment of a key player in the escape of two dangerous killers from a maximum security prison, coming up.
MACCALLUM: Thanks for being here tonight. Don't forget to go to facebook.com/thekellyfile, tell us what you think. Megyn is back on Monday. I'm Martha MacCallum. I will see you on Monday morning on "America's Newsroom" beginning at 9 o'clock with Bill Hemmer. Have a great weekend. And watch -- stay tuned for this breaking news of the arraignment. "Hannity" is coming up live with that. Good night, everybody.
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