This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 3, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."
A lot of news unfolding today on the president, the Russia investigation, that payment made to Stormy Daniels and more. There's a new report that the feds wiretapped the phones of Michael Cohen, the president's longtime lawyer who is now under criminal investigation. According to NBC News, calls were allegedly intercepted in the weeks leading up to the raids on his home, offices and hotel room. And at least one of them was between Cohen and the White House. This comes on the heels of Rudy Giuliani's surprising revelations from interviews with Fox News, among them that President Trump reimbursed Cohen for the money he paid out to adult film star Stormy Daniels before the elections, contradicting previous claims he didn't know about that payment. This morning on "Fox & Friends," Rudy tried to calm the storm:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, LEGAL COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: He didn't know the details of this until we knew the details of it, which was a couple weeks ago. Maybe not even a couple -- ten days ago. He was definitely reimbursed. There's no doubt about it. This was for personal reasons. This was -- the present had been hurt personally, not politically, personally so much, and the first lady by some of the false allegations, that one more false allegation, 6 years old. I think he was trying to help the family. It wasn't for the campaign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
GIULIANI: It was to save -- not their marriage, so much as their reputation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: And here's how the White House addressed the subject today:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why the president was not truthful with the American people and with (INAUDIBLE)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: As Mayor Giuliani stated, and I'll refer you back to his comments, this was information that the president didn't know at the time but eventually learned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That statement wasn't in reference to the reimbursement the payment.
SANDERS: Again, I gave you the best information that I had. And the allegations -- the president has denied and continues to deny--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether you're in the dark, I think is a fairly simple question, whether--
SANDERS: I think is a fairly simple answer that I've given you, actually, several times now. I gave you the best information that I had, and I continue to do my best to do that every single day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: I'm not sure she had a good briefing today, but not an easy one. Kimberly, isn't it very unlikely that the judges in the criminal case that apparently is being pursued with Michael Cohen would have approved a wiretapped for something like a campaign finance violation for $130,000? I think it's pretty unlikely.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yes, too much of a stretch, unlikely. Rudy Giuliani also said that he didn't think that he was being, you know, wiretapped, that Michael, that that was occurring as it related to that particular incident.
GUILFOYLE: Look, I think, look, there was obviously some, you know, coordination in terms of what the statement would be. People have said, wait, was this a dumb mistake by what he said? I don't think that he accidentally blurted something like that out. Let's get real. Plus, the tweet that went out was perfectly, like, precisely worded that the president put out as well. So now, they've put this information out there, and I guess it's part of their overall strategy.
PERINO: And what is the legal strategy then? Just to try to get it out before somebody else does?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I think he would preempt it. If you're aware of what you have, and what you know, and what comes to light, that then you become aware of. You handle it, you deal, you preempt and put it out there, otherwise, it looks like you were trying to conceal something.
PERINO: So, Juan, then I guess the question -- probably in the White House press corps today, was the question of -- well, that this is contrary to what information that the president himself and the press secretary had put out there. She handled it the way she did. And, I think that she did a pretty good job, basically, saying I gave you the best information that I had. She also said in the press briefing that last night, listening to that interview was the first time she heard anything different.
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Yeah. You know, you feel for her in that situation, and you would know best. But I just think she's in a very -- what they say, a rock in a hard place. I mean, that's a tough one.
PERINO: Mike McCurry used to say I'm double parked at a no comment zone.
WILLIAMS: Well, and I think part of this, though, that strikes me is that Giuliani was clearly pursuing a legal strategy, Dana, which said that the lawsuit, you know, common cause, committee for responsibility and ethics, was really leading to a campaign finance violation. And they wanted to make it clear that there was no third party that paid for the president, and therefore, had some leverage over the president or potentially could blackmail the president, that this was a personal payment. Didn't come from the campaign, didn't come from the Trump organization, but was from the president. And therefore, they say, this should all go away.
But, today, what we hear from these various groups is, in fact, they think their case has been bolstered by these comments, because now we understand the payment was made over time. So basically, it was a loan from Cohen. And then, even Giuliani's language was a little peculiar. He said, funneled through an LLC, a party that was set up by Cohen. And, of course, it was all done right before the election. So, this alleged took place in '06. But, here we are right before the election, and this money is being paid -- it looks like, you know, prima facie case of being done not to save family and the wife from embarrassment, but being done to save the president and his campaign from embarrassment.
PERINO: OK. I just got in my ear -- a little birdie told me that MSNBC, apparently, has a banner up right now that says correction, the feds are monitoring, not listening, to Cohen's calls. So, I guess, perhaps, there wasn't a call that was listened to between the president -- or the White House and Michael Cohen. So, there's just another wrinkle in the story, Jesse, your thoughts?
GUILFOYLE: Iron it out
JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: My thoughts. Well, listen, I was on the phone with Michael Cohen trying to book him for Watters' World right before the raid.
GUILFOYLE: There you go.
WATTERS: Getting that out there. If the transcription ever gets out, and the feds see I was bad mouthing Gutfeld.
WATTERS: So, I think it's government surveillance out of control, wiretapping, monitoring, listening, whatever. When you think about who's been listened to. The President of the United States, campaign manager, his lawyer, his advisor, who've he never met, his general, everyone is listening to these people. And this whole investigation started bipartisan and it's now being investigated partisans. It's crazy. It's totally out of control. I don't understand what's going on. Is it about an FEC violation? I think it's a political situation with the payments -- I mean, a personal situation. If it is political, FEC violation, it's a $10,000 fine.
PERINO: Yes, actually--
WATTERS: So what? He's just trying to protect his marriage and his reputation.
PERINO: I had a lawyer on today, Greg, that basically said the two -- even if you were to go forward with a campaign finance violation, it will be a misdemeanor, and you also have to have intent. So, you could imagine that Michael Cohen's defense might be -- well, he's been my client for a long time. I tried to do this. It's not like that they have, like, FEC lawyers on the hotline in order to call and figure it out, which it might be something they say.
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: I'm going to try to look at this, two ways. As a legal scholar--
PERINO: Well, good.
GUTFELD: -- and as just an American who watches The Five, OK? The legal scholar, if I were looking at this, I'd say, you're allowed to pay settlement. It's nothing to do with collusion. He didn't use campaign funds. Not a big deal. Now, as an American, a human being who watches The Five, we already know this guy is a billionaire playboy who lived in New York for four decades. He's going to lie about sex. Fetch me a thanking couch. It's smelling salt, because I don't care. I don't care. I'm not surprised. I think most Americans watching the show right now care more about policy than porn star tricks. Fact is, voters made a choice. They've made a choice. And the choice turns out to be pretty damn good. When we've get to the B-block, we'll talk about the release of those hostages. I think they would agree--
GUTFELD: -- that this is a good choice. So, what we're seeing right now is an attempt to reverse that choice by people who are now putting party before country. This is not collusion. They're trying to unseat a president based on some kind of technicality. It's garbage.
PERINO: I do think, Kimberly, that people are conflating these two things. And I don't think that they're conflatable. The Mueller investigation is over here.
PERINO: The Cohen raid is over here, and it's not something that they're trying to unseat the president with. It might be -- maybe it's something else. Like, I don't think that you actually monitor somebody's phone calls because of possible campaign finance violation. It might be a misdemeanor.
PERINO: You only get that criminal wiretap, if it is a wiretap--
GUILFOYLE: They better not be.
PERINO: -- it's something else. And a federal judge would have to approve.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. I mean, you know what? We've seen enough shenanigans, haven't we? Hashtag, shenanigans. So, none of it would surprise me--
PERINO: I don't know.
GUILFOYLE: -- at this point. But, nevertheless, no, it wouldn't be warrant. So, you're right. On a criminal basis, where is the sufficient evidence to say that this is something that warrants a wiretap, and it would be a complete, out-of-control overreach.
PERINO: So then, could it be something else.
GUILFOYLE: Well, maybe it could be something else, but what we see is enough, enough, we get that the weather is Stormy. We've got it. Let's move on in terms of what is going here, because they're harping on this. It's a Michael Cohen thing. It's -- you know, Avenatti saying there's more to come. That this is, in fact, going to undo the president. They would like to -- either parallel path for some of this to undermine the American presidency to -- turn over rule the election, and that's why they're so invested in it. Like, they've got all their chips in on the table.
GUTFELD: To your point, you say you don't think? It's about impeachment. This is a car with two gears. It's a gear for collusion, and when that doesn't work it switches into Stormy. And when Stormy isn't doing too well, they switch back into collusion. It's about impeachment.
GUTFELD: It's an impeachment goal by a combination of the media and the Democrats. It's a self-reinforcing--
PERINO: Well, then, let me ask something, though, because -- well, Juan, you can answer this. Given the polarized nation that we have at the moment, and the politics that it is, you can expect that your political opponents are going to use anything that they can against you.
WILLIAMS: That's true.
PERINO: And so, if Hillary had won, Republicans would be trying to use anything they could against her as well--
WATTERS: Republicans are too soft. They've never play this dirty.
GUTFELD: Well, no, you look at Clinton and Paula Jones. There are parallels.
WATTERS: He was impeached over sex.
WATTERS: So what? He's had the best ratings he's ever had--
GUTFELD: Exactly. We have to call a true-some.
(CROSSTALK) WILLIAMS: First of all, let me just say, I'm listening to you, guys, and I'm struck to the idea that the president lying, appearing on Air Force One and saying, no, not so. It doesn't bother you--
GUTFELD: It does.
WILLIAMS: -- as Americans. As people who watch The Five.
GUILFOYLE: He's being honest, though.
WILLIAMS: He's being honest?
WILLIAMS: Instead what you do is you're going for conspiracy theories. Like, this is about getting the president. This is what the president is doing to himself.
GUTFELD: It's not a conspiracy when somebody says this is going to end the presidency, this is what Avenatti said.
WILLIAMS: Avenatti? He's not one of these? He's not Robert Mueller.
GUTFELD: No, he said he's got information to unseat the president.
WILLIAMS: That's so silly. Let me just--
GUTFELD: No, it's what he said.
WILLIAMS: The other thing that struck me today is that you have Rudy Giuliani also saying that the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, should get involved, and he should end this thing. He should throw Mueller out the door. Meanwhile, Giuliani saying don't go after Ivanka. You can go after Jared--
WATTERS: I understand why he said that though, because there's no evidence of a crime. There is no evidence of obstruction, and there is no evidence of collusion, Juan. That's when you look at the questions that they leaked. There's actually no evidence. The questions are trying to elicit the president for saying something that he was thinking during the time he was making the decision about firing James Comey.
PERINO: Can we be clear about what they know about those questions. The Washington Post reported that the questions weren't actually written by Robert Mueller.
PERINO: They were written -- Robert Mueller gave them a range of topics. And Jay Sekulow wrote those questions--
PERINO: -- and then they got leaked.
WATTERS: Either way. If you have a crime, prosecute it. If you don't have a crime, stop trying--
WILLIAMS: Fine. OK. So stop trying to undermine the investigation.
WATTERS: I'm not undermining the investigation. The majority of Americans want a second special counsel appointed because of all the hokey pokey.
GUTFELD: The thing that's abusing from a far is the constant aha mode that cable news is in. Every day it's aha. And if you are program to look for an "aha moment," you will hear it whether it's there or not. I'm not looking for an aha. I'm not interested in an aha. So what I saw -- listening to Giuliani, all I heard him really say was that, you know, the president has Cohen on retainer. That covers expenses that he doesn't have to know about because that's how billionaires live. That's not an aha, that's a fact.
WILLIAMS: Let me just tell you, last night was a stunning moment--
WILLIAMS: -- Giuliani saying that $130,000 directly paid by the president, and Greg, it doesn't strike you?
WATTERS: A 130 if you're worth 10 billion is chunk change, Juan.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness gracious.
WILLIAMS: You can put the blinders on.
GUILFOYLE: No evidence of collusion of the crime itself. So--
PERINO: But how would we have that evidence?
GUILFOYLE: So far, those--
WATTERS: I mean, there was a burglary and a break-in in Watergate. That's what they were investigating, and he destroyed evidence. Trump and his team have not destroyed evidence. They've offered thousands and thousands of documents. Everybody has testified except the president. You have to protect the executive branch. You can't get inside the president's head every time he makes a decision.
GUTFELD: It's great to see -- it's so funny while this is happening, watching Trump's numbers go up in the general population, and among blacks it's doubled.
GUTFELD: Very frightening for Democrats right now. And very frightening to the media that the more they go after this guy, the more they elevate Trump because they're turning him into a victim--
PERINO: And they can't switch gears.
GUTFELD: They can't switch gears.
GUILFOYLE: People are saying, not your Democrat. Not your immigrant. There you go.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's like -- why did you fire Comey and he says, oh, it was collusion, it was the Russia stuff. Oh, no, says Giuliani. It was because he wouldn't say that he wasn't a target. Wait a minute. It just keeps shifting--
PERINO: What they should have done is just say--
GUTFELD: And America goes, so what?
WATTERS: Right. He also didn't trust him because he felt like he was being blackmailed when he came in with the dossier that leaked three days ago.
WILLIAMS: It's like mobster behavior.
GUTFELD: A hope so.
PERINO: A major new development on three Americans being held captive by North Korea. Could they be coming home soon? Stay with us.
GUTFELD: Tuesday, 18 Republican House members nominated Trump for the Nobel Prize crediting his peace through strength policies. So, should Trump share the award if indeed he wins? We hear about Kim, Xi and Moon, but what about The Worm?
Dennis Rodman who claims Kim Jong-un didn't understand Trump until Rodman gave him "The Art of the Deal" last year. That book led to a change of heart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNIS RODMAN, FORMER NBA PLAYER: I think that his impression about Donald Trump and the American people, I think he has a change of heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: So, now, Trump is going to meet with Kim, and may be American hostages might be released. This is pretty amazing news. So, we went to CNN and MSNBC for a response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, please. Please don't say that.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
GUTFELD: They just hate any good news about Trump.
So, Rodman may be the Obama administration's most successful diplomat. It makes you wonder, should Obama have sent Peyton Manning to talk to Putin? A-Rod to China? Johnny Manziel to Tehran? Point is anything could have worked as long as they had a copy of that book. They've all would have done better than Hillary and Samantha Power. Ask those three hostages who's a better negotiator: Obama and Hillary, or Trump and Rodman?
Now, we all know I have as much chance of winning that award as Trump does. The Euro elites are no different than our elites. They find Trump too unseemly to ever elevate in any way. But, that's the point: The exact qualities that turn off Lars in Oslo are what snags Kim. Kim understands the guy who negotiates through power, not platitudes and legacy building.
No matter what, Trump and Rodman has gotten us further with this nuclear threat than all the Beltway babblers and eunuchs out there. Maybe they should read the book too.
All right, Dana, you're at this table when I called Dennis Rodman a little B-word--
GUTFELD: -- because he went to North Korea. So, I -- my mea culpa, I think I was wrong, and I should apologize to Dennis Rodman. He's an American hero.
PERINO: I think you should reserve your judgment. I do wonder how John Kerry escaped the monologue.
GUTFELD: Yes. Well, he moves very slow. Yes. You know what he did? He blended into the wooden background and I didn't see him.
GUILFOYLE: So mean.
PERINO: No -- who did he take on?
GUTFELD: James Taylor.
PERINO: James Taylor over to Paris.
GUTFELD: America was happy because James Taylor was not in the country for a few days.
GUILFOYLE: Play a song. Burst it out.
PERINO: I do think that -- if in the long run we actually do find a peaceful solution here, which there's a long way to go, from here to there, then, of course, then President Trump should be granted -- awarded, excuse me, the Nobel Peace Prize. I also think that one of the big things, and the reason I don't think Dennis Rodman deserve so much credit, is that the strategic plan to squeeze China, and get China to get little rocket man to do the right thing is the brilliance of this whole plan.
GUTFELD: And who started that, Kimberly? A man named Donald Trump.
GUILFOYLE: Donald Trump, the art of the deal.
GUTFELD: A book I didn't read.
GUILFOYLE: So, we're following this train of thought. Amazing peace and world negotiator, Dennis Rodman equipped with a book--
GUILFOYLE: -- was able to--
GUTFELD: All you need.
GUILFOYLE: -- change the mind-set of Kim Jong-un.
GUILFOYLE: Making him totally sane and open to the charms of POTUS. And then, he therefore said, you know what, I'm going to stop being a bad actor--
GUILFOYLE: -- and I'm going to get it together. And I'm going to shake hands and work with South Korea, and I'm going to release hostages, and I'm going to stop running around being little rocket man.
GUTFELD: So, I was thinking, Juan, that you should go to Iran with my book--
WILLIAMS: You're right.
GUTFELD: -- Gutfeld Monologues, and I think that would solve everything.
WATTERS: Might not ever come back. Is that your idea?
GUTFELD: It's a win-win, either way. It's a win-win, either way.
GUILFOYLE: I mean, what if it work?
WILLIAMS: It could work. It could work. Anything for Greg, you know that.
PERINO: We're you hoping Juan gets trap over there.
WATTERS: Another hostage we're going to have to rescue.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
PERINO: We'll get right on it.
WILLIAMS: Jesse could be my seal.
WATTERS: Oh, you're never getting out then.
WILLIAMS: I'm struck by Dennis Rodman. I just think that's wonderful. We'll have fun.
WILLIAMS: But I think you're having fun. And I think that--
GUILFOYLE: Oh, he's serious.
WILLIAMS: But, no, what you said is serious, Kimberly. I mean, come on. So, he took a book and it changed everything? I mean, you know.
GUTFELD: It could be.
GUTFELD: We talk about--
GUTFELD: -- book can change your life.
PERINO: But what happened between the book and now? He actually got nuclear weapons.
GUTFELD: Well, that's the art of the deal, negotiation.
WATTERS: Besides the Bible, the Art of the Deal is probably right up there in the second best book--
GUTFELD: Way to couch that.
WATTERS: Probably. Listen, a few years ago you would have said that Donald Trump and Dennis Rodman, with the support of Kanye West--
WATTERS: -- were ending the Korean War, I would have dropped dead. This is incredible--
GUILFOYLE: Check your pulse.
WATTERS: -- get Kushner out to the Middle East, I'll say send Rodman.
WATTERS: And then, maybe they can share the peace prize. I think everything is happening for a reason.
GUTFELD: Dana, do you think that -- I mean, on a serious point, we you hear of the imminent release of these hostages. What does it mean?
PERINO: I think it means a couple of things, that Mike Pompeo, when he was there and he actually met with Kim Jong-un, it was probably a condition. And also, John Bolton, the new national security advisor it's like we're not going to -- remember Bergdahl--
PERINO: -- and the trade?
PERINO: It was like not really a good trade.
PERINO: That's not going to happen in this administration. And so, there's no possible way that President Trump would be willing to meet with somebody who was holding Americans hostage in a labor camp. So, in order to make that happen, they have to be released. Two of them had been taken hostage in 2017, one before that, I think 2015. Hopefully they can -- apparently they're at a hotel now. They've been moved from the camp to a hotel. And when we meet them -- I actually think it's going to be very interesting. It will probably take years for us to actually get all the information. But imagine what we might learn from them about how Kim Jong- un actually works. And so, I do want to tap the brakes on this idea that Kim Jong-un should share in a Nobel Peace Prize.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know what's interesting to me--
PERINO: He's a horrible person.
WILLIAMS: -- we've had releases before, Dana. We've had releases with -- in '09, I think, with Bill Clinton, and '10 with Jimmy Carter. And so, this is what the people at state and others say, you know, this is part of his behavior. This is how he plays the game. He makes offers. And it's not clear what our strategy is going in.
GUTFELD: I like our strategy.
WILLIAMS: I see some people want to celebrate early.
GUILFOYLE: Could you imagine Otto Warmbier, right?
WILLIAMS: Well, look at what happened with Otto. GUTFELD: We've got so much to talk about, including Hillary Clinton. You're going to love this. She's a brand-new excuse for losing the election. I love this one, because she might be right. The Five, returns.
GUILFOYLE: We've heard enough excuses from Hillary Clinton as to why she didn't win the White House. I didn't think there were any more left. But behold, there's another. Here's the latest gem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may be the only presidential candidate since World War II that actually had to stand up and say, "I am a capitalist," and you did. Did it hurt you?
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Probably. I mean, you know, it's -- it's hard to know. But I mean, if you're in the Iowa caucuses, and 41 percent of Democrats are socialists or self-described socialists, and I'm asked, "Are you a capitalist," and I say yes but with appropriate regulation and appropriate accountability, you know, that probably gets lost in "Oh, my gosh, she's a capitalist."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, so people are like yes, another. We're like adding them up, #yetanotherexcuse. So what's going on here, Greg? Because I know you get delighted every time Hillary makes an appearance.
GUTFELD: It's -- this one's especially hilarious, because she's right.
GUTFELD: A large portion of the Democratic Party are sniveling socialists. They're for the universal-based income, higher taxes, drop-down control.
GUILFOYLE: Sanders supporters.
PERINO: Guaranteed jobs.
GUTFELD: Guaranteed jobs. Identity over the individual. But they weren't voting for Trump. She was their only choice, so she shouldn't be complaining.
And I don't think the Democratic Party would actually disagree with her on this. They do -- they are chasing a failed system. We have the most effective political economic -- economical system in the history of the world, but the Democrats are like Sideshow Bob. They keep walking into rakes. You know? And it's always going to be -- they're always going to move to socialism, and they're always going to fail.
GUILFOYLE: All right. That was a good little synopsis.
GUTFELD: Sideshow Bob walking into rakes?
GUILFOYLE: Yes, I know. That analogy was good. But I think we should move this excuse, maybe, to No. 1. It actually has some credence. Well done. Well done.
GUTFELD: But it's a lie, too.
GUILFOYLE: Well, that's true.
PERINO: It is very instructive about what's going to happen in 2020.
PERINO: Because the ground really shifted under Hillary Clinton's feet from when she ran in 2008 to 2016.
In 2008, Bernie Sanders could not have run as an avowed socialist and won. If you think about the free-trade politics of JFK, a Bill Clinton, even a President Obama, everything had changed. And I don't what they're going to do in 2020, because if the economy is going -- well, it's going super well now. Can that continue to 2020? Probably for little while here.
How are they going to make an argument that there should be something different? I think that will be very difficult.
But if you look at a place like Ohio right now, it's a very heated gubernatorial race. The Bernie Sanders supporters are out there in force, you have a state that is actually pretty -- turning pretty red, and it's more likely that a Republican will be able to win both statewide contests with Senate and the governor's race.
GUILFOYLE: All right, indeed. It's interesting. Probably, like, seriously scribbling at home to come up with another idea. Because like, whoa, this tactic is not going to work. But it's true. You saw what was kind of the groundswell of support, Jesse, for Bernie Sanders, more progressive candidates, forcing the Democratic Party as a whole to tack further to the left and more progressive ideologies. A little bit of a pinch for him there.
WATTERS: Yes. Democrats like Bernie, because he fights for the poor and he looked poor. That really helps him. With the hair and everything like that.
Democrats don't do well when they run really wealthy candidates. If you look at Gore, and Kerry, and Hillary. You've got to get someone like Bernie that's a little bit disheveled and can fight for the little guy. That's authentic.
But honestly, "capitalism" is a dirty word for Democrats. They love socialism, but they can't define it. When you ask a Democrat -- and I do this on the street -- where has socialism worked? They can never say. Has it worked in Venezuela? Not so much.
PERINO: They don't give you the old -- Finland.
GUTFELD: They will point to Sweden. Right, so they'll point to Sweden. OK. Sweden is fine if you want to be taken care of for the rest of your life, if you want to live a middle-class life.
If you start with nothing in this country, you can have a yacht. In Sweden, that can never happen. The greatest part about America is there's upward mobility and grit, and that's rewarded. It's never going to be rewarded in Sweden.
And that's why the Democrats get themselves in trouble, because they're always offering handouts instead of hand ups.
GUILFOYLE: That was, like, so weird. That was like an infomercial. "You, too, can get a yacht. Come to America."
GUTFELD: I just want to -- before I get to Juan. You know, there are some very good-looking poor people.
GUTFELD: I was poor for a long time. I was poor for a long time.
WATTERS: I'm still more poor than you. And better looking.
GUILFOYLE: Everyone was -- everyone was poor in college.
GUTFELD: You just proved your point.
GUILFOYLE: All right. Jesse really didn't mean that. Nevertheless, a mom text is going to be coming.
WATTERS: She already hit me up for a poll I cited. She wanted it sourced, and she wanted the sample size.
GUILFOYLE: And margin of error.
All right. Juan.
WILLIAMS: In fact, you know, you are -- you were reciting Rasmussen, which is conservative leaning. They have almost half of Americans agreeing that we should have guaranteed jobs in this country.
WATTERS: Well, that scares me.
WILLIAMS: So I guess -- I guess they're socialists.
But I mean, what you have at this moment in terms of income inequality is a heightened sense of concern. And people feeling "I got left behind. I'm never going to catch up. I can't get a house as good as my parents."
But the key here is I remember you guys going after Hillary Clinton during the campaign for "Why doesn't she release her speeches to Wall Street?" Oh, so this part of the same attack initiated by Bernie Sanders, who came within one percentage point of tying Hillary Clinton in Iowa, a state where about half of the Democrats said they are -- they are self-described as socialists. And those numbers are national. If you especially look at young Democrats.
But I think they're confusing socialism with populism of the Trump/Bernie Sanders style --
WILLIAMS: -- which is really about speaking to economic needs in a nation where the opportunity for progress has been diminished because of income inequality.
PERINO: Good point.
GUILFOYLE: All right, that's it for us now. Put a bow on it.
Being Stormy Daniels's attorney doesn't appear to be enough for Michael Avenatti. His big plans, next. Stay with us.
WATTERS: Stormy Daniels's attorney, Michael Avenatti, is in fact, everywhere these days, or at least when it comes to being on TV. After new developments over a payment to his client, Avenatti was back on CNN, making bold proclamations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL AVENATTI, ATTORNEY FOR STORMY DANIELS: Every statement that I've made, every prediction in this case thus far, Don Lemon, has come true. I have been right. And I don't say that to be egotistical. I've been right all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: It turns out CNN can't get enough of this guy. The Media Research Center finds that he was on that network 59 times in less than two months. That's almost once a day, for those bad at math, like me. Avenatti isn't hiding hid true intentions either.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AVENATTI: We're going to continue to use the media. I think we've used it with great success. And I've said that this entire process is all about results. And that's what we 're ultimately interested in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: And Stormy's attorney is telling "Vanity Fair" multiple networks are approaching him about having his own show. Avenatti also reportedly pitched MSNBC directly about joining.
Juan, this guy is a publicity hound. You have to admit it.
WILLIAMS: Yes, he's using the press ably.
WATTERS: And the press loves being used.
WILLIAMS: I don't know. You think he's --
WILLIAMS: You know, Greg was talking about how Kim Jong-un is reading "Art of the Deal." I think in this case, Avenatti is following the Trump blueprint and how you use media to advance your political cause. And he's doing it ably, I must say.
Now Giuliani is on the air all the time. Maybe he's picked up on this, too. How do you use media to advance this cause? Avenatti is effective. I think that's why they keep having them on. Because the Stormy Daniels story is real.
WATTERS: He's a better self-promoter than he is a lawyer. Because I think, Kimberly, a judge is probably going to rule against Stormy Daniels, and she's going to have to pony up.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, well, and I wonder who is paying for all of this. Who is paying the attorney fees? And who's really behind all of it. It just makes you go "Hmm," like that.
But you know, listen, he is loving it. It's his 15 minutes of fame. And he is really, like, working the machine to be able to get some results for himself. Oh, and then he has a client.
WATTERS: That's right. Forgot about her. Fifty-nine times. Dana, that's almost as much as you are on television.
PERINO: Are you watching me a lot?
WATTERS: "The Daily Briefing" every day.
PERINO: Yes, but I'm actually -- that's one thing I would say, is it's actually -- Michael, it's a lot of work to have your own show. You don't just get to show up --
WATTERS: You don't just go on set.
PERINO: -- and, like, bloviate.
I just want to know from them, what is the outcome they desire? I don't understand. And that's why there's speculation like this about possibly they want more money. I would actually love to know, what's the legal outcome you very much want? What would be the headline that would be the one you imagine in your dreams as the most important one so that we cam understand where you want to go with it.
WATTERS: I think it's money and fame and then to damage the president politically. What do you think, Greg?
GUTFELD: He has said that's --
GUILFOYLE: Three years (ph).
GUTFELD: -- he could unseat the president.
Look, Juan is correct that he's using the media, but the difference is he's fulfilling a narrative that Trump didn't. Trump has made things exciting. He's filling up buckets that they need filled, and he's willing to cleave a country, to cut a -- to split a country in two to advance a career.
GUTFELD: But I have to hand it to him. This is what he wants to do. And the dupes are the media. And the media for the last I don't know how long has been saying it's America that was duped by Trump. No, it was the media that was duped by Trump, and now we're being duped by him.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, but they want to be, because they want the same outcome, result.
WATTERS: Except us, of course.
The PC police are sure out in full force these days. Now they're going after "The Simpsons." Stick around.
WILLIAMS: We told you about that prom dress controversy earlier this week. An uproar over a white teen in Utah wearing an Asian-style dress.
Now the University of New Hampshire has decided to replace its Cinco de Mayo celebrations this Saturday with Unity Day so it doesn't, quote, "distress" its Latino students.
And there's a race row with the longest running TV show in America, my favorite, "The Simpsons." Allegations that the character Apu is a stereotype of South Asian immigrants.
Creator Matt Groening pushing back saying he's proud of the show and, quote, "I think it's time in our culture where people love to pretend that they're offended." Kimberly.
GUILFOYLE: Yes. I mean, that is. It's like we live in a world of, you know, perpetual offense. Like, everybody is offended about something at some point. When you wake up every morning, you just go, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." Right? Because you don't know who you might particularly offend.
People used to love "The Simpsons." Right? Very successful show. Now things are getting sort of picked apart. OK? Is this character bad? Is that character bad? I don't know. Do you have a problem with this character?
WILLIAMS: Well, no, I love "The Simpsons." And Apu is not a major character, but I must say, I'm struck by the idea that comes from the critics, Kimberly, that he's the only representation of a South Asian male on TV. And of course, it's not that, you know, convenience stores owner -- I think he runs the Quik-E-Mart on "The Simpsons" -- don't exist. The question is, is it a caricature of people who are striving immigrants?
WATTERS: Well, according to Joe Biden, everybody at 7-Eleven has an Indian accent. So I mean, we all remember that gaffe.
Apu is not offensive. And if you want to play that game, Groundskeeper Willie is offensive to Scotch-Irish alcoholics.
WATTERS: In the effort to be -- full disclosure here, my uncle works for the University of New Hampshire. I want to get that out of the way.
Also, so the Latin community at the New Hampshire University is upset about Cinco de Mayo? Apparently, Cinco de Mayo is when the Mexicans beat the French. Now, that is a low bar. I'm not sure I would have a holiday if I beat the French.
GUILFOYLE: No, you would probably be embarrassed, yes.
WATTERS: That would be, like, and everyday thing for me. But they say that they're upset. It created this stress in the Latin community, to celebrate Cinco de Mayo. So I don't know --
PERINO: They're celebrating a win.
WATTERS: They're celebrating a victory. Albeit a French -- over the French. But still --
GUILFOYLE: Low bar. Low bar.
WATTERS: -- be happy. Be happy.
WILLIAMS: All right. So Dana --
GUILFOYLE: What a bizarre, bizarre analysis.
WILLIAMS: -- the other side of the argument ably presented by Jesse.
WATTERS: Is there another side?
WILLIAMS: The Latino community at the University of New Hampshire said, "Hey, you know, we don't like people walking around making fun of Mexican culture and the like." And then when they said this, it set off a series of racial incidents on campus, racist incidents like graffiti, swastikas, slurs, vandalism. And so now the college says, "We would like this to be a unifying event."
PERINO: OK, then order up some margaritas and, you know, enjoy. Life is meant to be enjoyed, OK? Young people at the university, stop it. You're so privileged to live in this country and to be getting an education and to have a chance to know all sorts of people from all different cultures. Nobody is making fun of Hispanic culture by celebrating Cinco de Mayo. It's just a chance, an excuse to have a party.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, no one is offended.
WATTERS: A fiesta, for those of us who are watching.
PERINO: Actually, who doesn't like guac and chips and salsa? That's my favorite food. Am I going to get accused of cultural appropriation?
GUILFOYLE: I want to appropriate it. I wish the Puerto Ricans had a good, like, holiday like that. So I just go ahead and go with Cinco de Mayo.
WILLIAMS: I think -- you know what? I was looking around today at the stores for a paste-on mustache for Gregory.
GUILFOYLE: To --
GUTFELD: To do what?
WILLIAMS: So you could culturally appropriate --
GUTFELD: Be in an adult movie?
WILLIAMS: Oh, no. What is the -- the image of the guy on the coffee bag? Juan --
PERINO: Juan Valdez.
GUTFELD: A lot of this is --
GUILFOYLE: No one knows.
GUTFELD: -- born from the social justice movement, which are -- they literally have become the fun police. They're a humorless mob on every campus out to eliminate joy because they have none in their lives. Because the oppressive versus oppressed narrative has made them so incredibly angry that any cultural appreciation becomes appropriation.
Bret Weinstein, he's a great professor -- Weinstein -- said it best. He says when you come face-to-face with a group of people who are devoid of all humor, then there is no potential for dialogue. And humor provides the good-natured kind of path to shared experience. We can make jokes with each other. Therefore, we understand each other. Without humor, you're going to end up with intolerance and ultimately, fascism.
So if you can't have fun. You were talking about those hate crimes, which are almost always entirely hoaxes afterwards. They find out that the noose was placed by somebody else or the writing on the wall was done by somebody else. That's what happens. You can no longer meet -- the individuals because the groups say no.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I'm all for -- I'm all for fun. I'm all for Cinco de Mayo, but I'm not for making fun of minority students on the campus.
GUTFELD: That's a daring, daring position.
WATTERS: Neither am I.
GUILFOYLE: Is anybody for that?
WILLIAMS: Well, I think you guys say -- we just see the fun.
GUTFELD: When I get out of "The Five," I go make fun of minorities, Juan. You can see me on the street.
WILLIAMS: Okie-doke. "One More Thing" is up next.
PERINO: It's time now for "One More Thing" -- Kimberly.
GUILFOYLE: Hello. Thank you Dana Perino, star of "The Daily Briefing."
All right. Well, most people who go to a Pink concert, well, they're dancing their little heinies off, singing along and really living in the moment. But if you are six years old, that time might be better spent with a little nap or two, as evidenced by Pink's beautiful little daughter, 6- year-old Willow. She's struggling to keep her eyes open during her mom's Dallas concert, nodding off. Her dad, carrying her, films her. So she shared the adorable video on social media, Pink, did, and said, "I really rocked that show."
WATTERS: It looks like Juan when I am talking.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, exactly.
WILLIAMS: I pay attention to you, Jesse.
WILLIAMS: It's unbelievable.
GUILFOYLE: It's like a shock and awe.
WILLIAMS: I agree.
PERINO: All right, Juany.
WILLIAMS: All right. So you guys know I'm a newspaper reporter at Heart. Well, take a look at this front page from the Chicago Sun-Times. That's right; it's blank. No news about the White House or the White Sox. The paper ran this bold front page to ask readers for their financial support, noting that news organizations that do original reporting now represent less than 3 percent of what you can find online in this country. And newspaper advertising, it's declining, taking money away from quality journalism. The situation is killing off papers all across the country. Denver especially comes to mind.
Today is World Press Freedom Day. From me to you, love your local newspapers.
GUTFELD: That was racist.
PERINO: A white paper.
GUTFELD: It was all white.
WILLIAMS: Oh, my gosh.
GUTFELD: Why couldn't it have been black, Juan? Jeez. I'm out of here.
PERINO: My friend Ian Bremmer has a new book out. It is called "Us Versus Them: The Failure of Globalism." And if you are a Trump supporter, I think you would want to check this book out. Even if you're not, it's a New York Times best seller, just made the list today.
GUILFOYLE: I like him, too.
PERINO: He was talking about it on the show today, about just the feeling going on around the world. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IAN BREMMER, AUTHOR, "US VS. THEM": Average people in the United States, like everyone I grew up with in the projects, feel like this country and the establishment no longer serves them. And that is true economically. It's true culturally. It's true in terms of our military. It's true in terms of technology. Those are deep, deep-seated things that are just not getting fixed. And we're not unique. This is the way they feel in Britain; it's the way they feel in Canada and in New Zealand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: Anyway, it's a great book. Check it out -- Jesse.
WATTERS: Do you guys remember that game Jenga?
PERINO: Love it.
WATTERS: Where you stack it, and you try to pull the things out? Well, check out this shot. This is a golf, Joshua Kelly. This is how he wins Jenga.
WATTERS: Chip shot into the middle of the Jenga Tower.
WATTERS: Takes out the middle piece. Look at that. You know how hard that is to do? Everybody that's played golf knows --
GUILFOYLE: Is this a fake video?
WATTERS: -- that's impossible. It's a trick shot video. It's not fake news, Kimberly. But thanks for challenging my integrity.
PERINO: All right, Greg.
GUILFOYLE: Just your vetting. Just your vetting.
GUTFELD: I know what you've been waiting for, this. It's time for --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAPHIC: Greg's Sleepy Cat News
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: "Greg's Sleepy Cat News." All right, we go to Wisconsin. Let's check out this sleepy cat. We actually have a sleepy cat copter. It goes around and finds sleepy cats and checks on them. Yes, he looks like he's asleep.
PERINO: It looks like Pink's daughter.
GUTFELD: Yes, there he is. He's been listening to Juan talk about Trump. He's out. There he goes. Aww.
I thought we had a better sleepy cat video. But that will do for now. Cats are always tired, and it's not like they do anything.
GUILFOYLE: Have you ever been that tired?
GUTFELD: Get a job, cat. Then sleep.
PERINO: I was that tired when I came back from that week away.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, you were tired.
PERINO: Hard time. And in the makeup chair.
GUILFOYLE: I'm out of here Friday.
GUTFELD: Great story, Dana.
PERINO: Thank you. I really like to help us so we can get through the time, because we have a little extra time, but no more. Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." "Special Report" up next with Shannon Bream tonight in for Bret.
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