This is a rush transcript from "The Story," November 13, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Oh. Good to see you again. I feel like we're meeting all over the place these days. Thank you, Bret. Good to see you. Big long day today as we covered the impeachment hearings that will continue on Friday, but you only get one chance to make a good first impression. And Democrats said that they were putting their strongest witnesses out front today to make their case for the impeachment of President Trump to the American public.
Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York and this is “The Story.” Congressman Eric Swalwell is here. He was asking questions of Bill Taylor and George Kent today. Plus the president's son, Eric Trump with his first response to the case being made against the president. We will also get reaction from former U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Nikki Haley. And her surprising answer to the question that she has been asked a lot this week.
And of course, it's Wednesday. So that means Wednesday with Watters. Jesse is here tonight. Good day for that. But first, we go back to the big question of the evening. Who scored points today? One Democrat aide was quoted in the Washington Post this morning who said, we're screwed, no bombshells, no revelations, the onus is on us to wow some people this week. But were there wow moments?
Just to remind you what those look like, here are some big ones from the past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you know (INAUDIBLE)
BRENDAN SULLIVAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well sir, I'm not a potted plant. I'm here as the lawyer. That's my job.
CLARENCE THOMAS, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: It is a high-tech luncheon for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves.
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER FIRST LADY: What difference at this point does it make?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So what will the history books say about today and the day is to come? Democrat Eric Swalwell, member of the House Intel Committee is here. This was perhaps his big takeaway moment of today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kent, are you a never Trumper?
GEORGE KENT, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, EUROPEAN AND EURASIAN AFFAIRS: I am a career nonprofessional who serves whatever president is duly elected and carries out the foreign policies of that President in the United States. And I've done that for 27 years for three republican presidents and two democrat presidents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ambassador Taylor, are you a never Trumper?
BILL TAYLOR, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: No, sir.
MACCALLUM: Congressman Swalwell joins me now. Congressman, thanks for being here tonight. Good to see you this evening.
REP. ERIC SWALWELL, D-CALIF.: My pleasure, Martha.
MACCALLUM: A long day for everybody. What were you trying to achieve in that moment exactly?
SWALWELL: I wanted the American people to see that these were two patriots who came before Congress, despite the President telling them not to share what they saw as far as wrongdoing. I thought Ambassador Taylor said it best which was that the shakedown scheme by the President was just wrong, but that they don't have dogs in the fight. Their career public servants. They've served all over the world.
Ambassadors Taylor signed up after being fifth in his class at West Point to go to Vietnam and they just wanted to do the right thing. And they shared that with the American people today.
MACCALLUM: I mean, I think you're right that people would absolutely see them that way as committed public servants who have been around a very long time. Where for presidents of both stripes as we all heard but, you know, it seems that some of that is what it is, you know, and I think people look at them and they say, you know, they've been working with government a very long time.
That's what they're they do sort of part of the institution of government in many ways. But when it came to sort of push came to shove, with the cross examination and the questions of them. So what happened because of all of this, and those, you know, kind of fell a little bit flat in terms of what was actually the outcome of the things that they were so disturbed about. What did you think about that?
SWALWELL: I don't think it falls flat when Ambassador Taylor says that he heard from Ambassador Sondland that the President said everything was on the line for the Ukrainians, including security assistance if they did not investigate Vice President Biden's son to Ambassador Taylor and Mr. Kent. This was offensive because this is just not what we do as Americans.
We don't ask foreign governments to investigate our political opponents. And I don't think the facts are really in much dispute here. You're going to see that in the next couple of weeks. I think what is in dispute is, is this who we are as a country? And we're gonna have to answer that in the coming week.
MACCALLUM: Well, I -- and I think you're right. And I think that people watch this all across the country but they're trying to figure out if it rises to the level of impeaching a president of, you know, political death as Nikki Haley put it, of the most extreme punishment that you could give someone who's elected by the American people in an -- in an election year. And that's something that every American is going to have to decide for themselves as they look at this.
So my question for you as, you know, an attorney, you know, in terms of how well your case was made, when it turns out that the things that were discussed, don't actually end up happening. Is that a convincing argument in this courtroom that is the Congress right now?
SWALWELL: Well, this shakedown scheme was happening, Martha until the whistleblower complaint came forward. So you don't get points as the president when you stop the shakedown because now someone has pulled the fire alarm and the first responders are showing up. But second, in America, you're still held accountable for an attempt at wrongdoing.
And I think there's no going back. If we decide as a country that any president, Republican or Democrat can ask foreign governments to investigate their opponents, that that is no longer America. And I think the American people are going to say, we don't want to go there.
MACCALLUM: Yes. What about the argument that Republicans put out there today, which was, you know, that when you sort of go through the -- all of the different points here in this sort of argument that they've laid out, that it falls overall, that it falls -- it falls short, you know, that these guys had second and third hand, I thought one of the most powerful moments actually from Jim Jordan, you know, just sort of putting up points on both sides when people were scoring was when he said, now, he read that part of the transcript which was like, he told him and then he told him, and then he told him, and then he told her, and then she told him.
It was like five or six degrees of separation, that neither one of these people had ever had a conversation with the President about any of this.
SWALWELL: Most powerful evidence is the President's own words which he put out where he does never -- he never mentions the word corruption but he does mention Biden. These witnesses were witnesses to what agents of the president were doing. Ambassador Volker, Ambassador Sondland and Rudy Giuliani. They had firsthand knowledge because they were being asked to carry out the shakedown scheme.
But they also laid out what was at stake what it meant to the Ukrainians in a life or death manner to not get this aid. And finally, Martha, if the President of the United States is innocent, he will send the firsthand witnesses, John Bolton and Mick Mulvaney to Congress. If he's guilty, he'll stop us from hearing it hard stop.
MACCALLUM: What about executive privilege? Those people obviously work very closely with the President, I think most White Houses, you know, would argue that that's the case, that those conversations are just simply privileged.
SWALWELL: Executive privilege does not cover wrongdoing or crimes. It certainly does not cover people who are no longer in the White House and we're talking to other people who are not the president. Again, the president -- the interest here is not executive privilege, it's CYA.
MACCALLUM: Let me ask you about the Bidens. Do you think that they're immune from those same kind of questions that you just raised in terms of business relationships? Because George can't raise that today. He said that that didn't look good to him and that he wanted that to be investigated, looked into -- he thought it was not a good luck. Should you speak with them about that? Because we're talking about a vice president and potential wrongdoing.
SWALWELL: I don't think we should chase the President's conspiracy theories, especially when Mr. Ken said Mr. Biden was only carrying out the foreign policy of the United States.
MACCALLUM: He did say that.
SWALWELL: And he also -- Mr. Ken said that there was never a formal request from our attorney general to the Ukrainians through the established channels to look into this. This was only coming from the president. Again, I think that's a consciousness of guilt. If he went through the proper channels, he knew that it would be rejected because there is no evidence there.
So he ran this smear campaign with an ambassador and then he was trying to threw Sondland, threw Giuliani and others, smear his upcoming opponent.
MACCALLUM: No, I understand. I have Eric Trump here and I'm going to ask him some of those questions about exactly what happened in all of this. But let me ask you this because if Eric Trump got a job on a board for a company in Turkey, OK? Would you be OK with that or would you think that might be something that should be looked into?
SWALWELL: You'll need to give me another 20 minutes to talk about the Trump's cashing and an access to their father.
MACCALLUM: I got 30 seconds. Give me your best shot.
SWALWELL: Yes. Yeah, I mean, Ivanka Trump getting trademarks credit to her while she's working at the White House from China, Don, Jr. going over to India and selling Trump condos?
MACCALLUM: I asked you about a specific example.
SWALWELL: Yes. It's a whole another segment, Martha.
MACCALLUM: They're in real estate. They've been in real estate for 20, you know, 25 years.
SWALWELL: Yes. The correct practices of the Trump family would take a whole segment. But I'm focused --
MACCALLUM: So would you or would you not if one of them after he became president suddenly became an advisor to an energy company in Turkey or Ukraine, you would say, I'm not interested in that? Because that's what you're saying right now.
SWALWELL: We have open investigations into the Trump family for their corrupt practices, Martha, but here there's no evidence.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Both those situations are not parallel.
MACCALLUM: And I'm asking you a specific question. I'm saying if they had never been in those businesses before, and they got into them only after their father became president wouldn't you want to investigate that?
SWALWELL: I would want to go through formal channels. I don't think it's appropriate for the President of the United States to ask another leader to involve themselves in our poll. And that's what's at stake.
MACCALLUM: That's established as the topic of the day. I just wanted to ask you.
SWALWELL: And Nikki Haley said that too by the way. She said that today. Nikki Haley said that. She thought it was inappropriate.
MACCALLUM: And she absolutely didn't say that. Thank you very much. Good to see you, Congressman Swalwell.
SWALWELL: You too.
MACCALLUM: Thanks for being here.
SWALWELL: My pleasure.
MACCALLUM: So here now as (INAUDIBLE) mentioned, Eric Trump, Executive Vice President of the Trump Organization. So Eric, I want to ask you some, you know, challenging questions as well. Your dad asked this president, Zelensky of Ukraine to look into the Biden's and very specifically. And in fact on a call that that we learned about today, this is what was said by William -- by Bill Taylor, listen to this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR: In the presence of my staff at a restaurant, Ambassador Sondland called President Trump and told him of his meetings in Kyiv. The member of my staff asked Ambassadors Sondland what President Trump thought about Ukraine. Ambassador Sondland responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden which Giuliani was pressing for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Welcome, first of all.
ERIC TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S SON: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: What's your reaction?
TRUMP: Well, first of all, as an American, I do want to know about the corruption of the Bidens. It's absolutely and by the way, thank you for being the first journalist that's actually held one of the Democrats accountable for what the Bidens were doing because it's unacceptable. I would be murdered if I did half of what Hunter Biden did. And for -- you know, I mean, what I'm really excited about, Martha, is I don't think the Democrats are playing the long game because even if they go through this whole impeachment thing, right? It goes to Senate.
TRUMP: I can't wait for the Senate to call witness number one, Barack Obama, witness number two, Joe Biden, witness number three, Hunter Biden. Let's find out what was actually happening over there. Let's find out if Barack Obama was OK with Hunter Biden getting $50,000 a month to sit on a Ukrainian energy board while his father was in charge of Ukrainian energy.
MACCALLUM: OK. So what's going to come right back at you there is, you know, that totally irrelevant that the issue at hand with regard to this impeachment is whether or not your dad was in soliciting the help of a foreign president and holding his feet to the fire and saying, you're not going to get money unless you help me with my election.
TRUMP: Why won't they investigate where they were with the dossier? Why won't any of the Democrats? You know, if there was really bad stuff that happened there. Why won't they find out what actually happened with the dossier? They just want sweet that another one, you know, nothing happened here. Why don't they happen -- why won't they investigate their own politicians who were clearly --
MACCALLUM: That's an ongoing investigation like John Durham and Horowitz, and believe me, we're going to cover that in great detail. We are all looking forward to that information.
TRUMP: And we better, and we better because what's happening to this country and the way the media covers them and that's why I love the way you push them right there. But the way the media covers for the Bidens and other Democrats who are doing very, very questionable at best, I use questionable at best things. It's disgusting. It shouldn't happen. This is a sham and you know what? I look at stock market today when I was leaving work, right up 100 points, another one record high today.
Our country has never done better. We are the strongest we've ever been economically, we're the envy of the entire world. We've got the best job growth, the best wage growth, the lowest unemployment.
MACCALLUM: All right. So let me ask you. Listen, and I've asked this question several times because it does interest me. The day after the Mueller investigation is lifted off of your dad's shoulders, right? Something that has dogged him since day one. Why when he's on the phone with this Ukrainian president, when he opened the door to ask you a question about his political adversary, who he's probably going to run about, he gave them this on a silver platter with that phone call. And now they're going to run with it now. You're in the middle of impeachment hearings.
TRUMP: Martha, that that whole transcript was perfect. I've read it 100 times. It was perfect. Here's the deal. The person you just had on the show, Swalwell, right? He made it any presidential. He was a Democratic primary candidate. As you know, he made it exactly six weeks, he was polling at exactly zero percent. He wasn't going to make the second debate and all of a sudden, here's the authority on impeaching my father.
The reality is they have a bunch of Doug candidates on the other side, right? Biden can't get through two sentences without stuttering. Warren has zero chance of winning. I mean, I could -- I could go through the list but they're not going to do. Bloomberg. You think Bloomberg is going to win Middle America. He's got zero chance in the world and I could keep on going. They know they don't have anybody.
At the same time, you've got markets hitting record highs, you've have this country doing incredibly well. I was walking down the street to come here tonight. People were chanting USA, USA, USA, tell your father to go get these guys. This is a total sham. There is not a single person outside the Washington, D.C. beltway that gives a damn about what happened today. It's boring. They were supposed to put on theater. They did a horrible job.
I mean, no one was watching it. No one cares. No -- this isn't going to change one person's mouth. They flopped horribly today. They know that --
MACCALLUM: I know they -- you don't think there was anything wrong. The phone call your father said many times he thinks it's perfect. Obviously it's the subject of what's going to go on over the next several days. So we'll continue to cover it. Let me ask you one more question with regard to Rudy Giuliani who came up a lot today. There was a report in Axios today by an Uber-connected Republican who said Rudy will be cut loose because he was rogue.
Is there any way that your dad at any point, looks at this and says, I didn't really know what Rudy was up to 100 percent?
TRUMP: I have no idea. You have to ask him that. I can tell you, I know Rudy very well. Rudy is a good man. And I think Rudy's really disturbed by the corruption that he saw every single day with his fake dossier that was produced by rogue agents, you know, trying to take down a presidential candidate, Rudy is a prosecutor, and I think quite frankly, you know, somebody better get to the bottom of that --
MACCALLUM: Is he still going at it?
TRUMP: Somebody better -- I don't know, you can ask Rudy that, but somebody better get to the bottom of it, because it's not right for this country. And I know exactly why as a family member, I'm pissed by, I know as a personal attorney to somebody why he would be so upset about that. Somebody better get answers to these things because it's wrong to this country. And I'm telling you, these guys are desperate, and they're doing foolish things and just like Kavanaugh, just like the Russian hoax, they're going to come out of this looking like idiots.
I thought they did today and they gained exactly nothing today. And we're going to win this again.
MACCALLUM: All right, Eric, thank you. Thank you for answering the questions. Thank you for coming in tonight. Good to see you as always. We'll be covering it all the way through. Eric Trump.
Coming up, Nikki Haley's first impression of the impeachment hearings on the Hill today, also very interesting. Plus her first response to the new rumors about her plans for 2020. Also up, one Republican Senator in a tight race for reelection. Will he stand behind the President unconditionally or will he take a different path in terms of what comes next, when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: I want to also thank and I'll tell you, he's been a warrior for the last three months, really a warrior when we needed a most, Senator Thom Tillis. Thank you, Thom. You really have. He's been really good and we got to get out and work and make sure he gets reelected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So that was July 17, just eight days before that July 25th phone call which led to today's impeachment hearing. He was alongside North Carolina Senator Thom Tillis who is a tight race ahead in the reelection for 2020 like many of his fellow Republican colleagues Susan Collins in Maine, Cory Gardner in Colorado. All three of their faith could hinge on the President's impeachment trial which may be underway.
Joining me now is Republican Senator Thom Tillis, member of the Judiciary Committee. Senator, good to have you here tonight.
SEN. THOM TILLIS, R-N.C.: Good evening, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Is that where you think this is headed. Do you think it ends up in the Senate? You just heard Eric Trump saying he hopes so because he hopes that you all will be able to call some witnesses that we're not seeing this time around.
TILLIS: Well, I think so. I think what we saw today is nothing more than a public version of what they've been doing for the past several weeks. Their star witness today admitted he's never met the president. He wasn't on the phone call with him and he was providing us second and third-hand accounts.
The fact of the matter is the aid flowed to the Ukraine. There's no evidence in the transcript we've all read that there was any offer of a quid pro quo. So this feels a lot like the Special Counsel investigation and every other attempt for the Democrats to try and impeach the President since he won election.
MACCALLUM: Yes. You have a challenger on the GOP side Garland Tucker who's worn a lot of money into this race. How concerned are you about that and what's the temperature of the people in North Carolina? Do they care about what's going on with this impeachment and where do you stand?
TILLIS: I actually think the people in North Carolina care about what's not going on in Congress. We've got a National Defense Authorization Act that's been passed for 58 straight years. It's hanging in the balance now. We have a number of things that the American people want to see done. And their patience I think is beginning to run to the -- to the end on this continuous march for impeachment. Let's get the USMCA passed. Let's get the National Defense Authorization passed.
MACCALLUM: You think there's any help with that at all at this point? I mean --
TILLIS: I hope so because the America -- if there's not, I think Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer need to know there's going to be a consequence for leaving a trade agreement that's going to help farmers and workers in the United States in an ash heap over on the House side.
I think that the National Defense Authorization and funding our military are things that people in North Carolina care about. And if they don't act on it, they're going to regret it next November.
MACCALLUM: So there's a Politico piece that says that there's a surprisingly plausible path to remove President Trump from office that includes a secret ballot. And it says, if you went through the secret ballot that way, it would only take three Republican senators to turn the impeachment vote. Is that a path that would ever happen, a secret ballot in the Senate?
TILLIS: Well, let me tell you this. The secret ballot could only happen if every member of the U.S. Senate agreed to have a secret ballot. Count me in as an objection. There's no way that people are going to run away from their vote.
The President deserves a fair treatment. He's been treated unfairly to this point. And every single one of us needs to listen to the testimony and see a pattern of behavior that started before he was ever sworn into office.
Here's no new information coming out this week and I don't expect that there will be any before we see the articles of impeachment potentially come to the Senate.
MACCALLUM: Senator Thom Tillis, thank you, sir. Good to see you tonight.
TILLIS: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Coming up next, Nikki Haley's first reaction to what happened in there today and all the speculation about her future plans, 2024 maybe even 2020.
MACCALLUM: Nikki Haley has not always seen eye to eye with President Trump. She supported him in the 2016 election while at the same time saying she was not a fan. But a few months later, she was chosen to serve in his administration.
During her tenure as U.N. Ambassador, Haley did not bite her tongue or hold back when it came to sharing her honest opinion with the President. In fact, we're learning now she was one of the rare few who could.
Earlier, I spoke with the author of the new book With All Due Respect: Defending America with Grit and Grace, former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Nikki Haley.
MACCALLUM: I want to ask you a little bit of what we saw happening today. These impeachment hearings just began and we covered them for five-plus hours throughout the day. Do you think that overall they helped or hurt the President's case?
NIKKI HALEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: I think the bottom line is I think this is a distraction from what the American people really care about. They want to see jobs, the economy, all of those things focused on. And the U.S.-Mexico Canadian Trade Agreement needs to get done.
This -- the country is being divided on illegal immigration. They need to get in there and debate that and come up with vetting processes, make sure that we have our security on our border.
MACCALLUM: It doesn't look like any of this is going to happen.
HALEY: The debt, the deficit, the budget going forward, these are the things that need to be talked about. The thing that bothers me about the impeachment is we're less than a year away from an election. Let the people decide. Here you have, you know, a situation where the President clearly was having a conversation with another president.
And yes, did he ask for the investigation? That's not a secret. He's been telling everybody that but he didn't threaten them. You know, he -- the aide was released. No investigation happened. All of this --
MACCALLUM: It's the timing. You know, it's the day after the Mueller investigation ends. I mean, why would the President on that phone call the very next day when he's got this thing lifted off of his shoulders, why would he go there? You know him.
HALEY: You know, the only thing I can think of is, first of all, it's just not a good practice to ask a foreign government to investigate an American. It's just not something we want to have happen. But I think what's happened is he has always resented how he's been in one investigation after another after another, yet the other side has not been investigated. And I think it just kind of burns him a bit.
I think it burns him that he doesn't think it's fair. And I think he's saying look, after all these, I didn't do anything wrong when you are going to start investigating --
MACCALLUM: Yes, but pushing it landed him right in a whole another investigation.
HALEY: It did. It did.
MACCALLUM: Unfortunately, for him, as he go through all of us. Do you think that call is just, you know, sort of Trump being Trump, as they say, that he's always wheeling and dealing some? And as a businessman, he always wants to get something out of every transaction? Is that what you see in that call?
HALEY: Look, I mean, when I read the transcript, I didn't see him like really pushing him to do that.
MACCALLUM: You've seen him push a lot harder?
HALEY: I've seen a bush a lot harder. That was actually a very casual conversation from what he's normally have when he pushes, he pushes, that just wasn't a push from him.
MACCALLUM: Today, the Turkish president, President Erdogan, is at the White House and the president called him a great NATO ally. It is Turkey a great NATO ally?
HALEY: No, but I have seen the president do this over and over again. This is his way of disarming those who could be foes of ours. And he disarms them in a way that makes them think that he sees them as a friend.
MACCALLUM: All right. I want to ask you a little bit about some of the passages in your book. And one of the ones that I haven't heard you talk about as much is the very emotional time for you after the Mother Emmanuel shooting --
MACCALLUM: -- at the church in Charleston. And you are very open about how difficult that was for you as a human being. You broke down in tears at one point, and I thought it was very interesting that you wrote that even afterwards, you had what you characterized as PTSD.
MACCALLUM: How does that manifest itself in you and your body? What was happening?
HALEY: Well, I mean, I think it was -- I was a governor trying to hold my state together and trying to lift up these families who have been through so much. Went to all of the funerals. They were all open casket, and watching those family members follow over those caskets, seeing the hate that I couldn't comprehend, and knowing what happened in the room just affected me.
And where is normally, I am an emotional person and can be, it just wouldn't go away. And so, I would go out and I would do a press conference at I would come back and I would cry. Or I would go home after a long day and I would just get into the bed.
And so, it was really signs of not being able to snap out of it. The one thing I did do is when we had a thousand-year flood, or hurricane Matthew, or we had another school shooting, I threw myself into that, feeling obsessive about making sure that no one got hurt.
And so, I always just threw myself into it. But when the symptoms weren't going away, I was having dinner with my chief of staff and her husband, who was my physician --
MACCALLUM: Happened to be a doctor. Yes.
HALEY: And he just said, you've --
MACCALLUM: You need help.
HALEY: -- these are all of the signs of PTSD. You've got to get therapy.
HALEY: And so, you know, it was difficult to write that in the book. That was not something that was easy. But I thought PTSD was for people on the battlefield. I thought it was for people who experienced trauma firsthand. I had guilt saying, I wasn't even in the room, I wasn't one of the family members. Why am I having it? You can get PTSD just in different ways. And you have to be able to get help.
MACCALLUM: Yes. You absorb so much of what was going on with all the people that you are with.
MACCALLUM: So, I want to play this for you, this is from Steve Schmidt, who was an advisor to John McCain's campaign. Here's what he had to say about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE SCHMIDT, FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: She wants to be vice president on the Republican ticket in 2020.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
SCHMIDT: And I think there is an overwhelming chance that Trump will dump Pence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really? Why do you say that?
SCHMIDT: To put Nikki Haley on the ticket. Because he has an enormous problem with women, suburban women, particularly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: What do you say?
HALEY: You know, it's funny because I came out with this book. It's a personal book. It talks about the good, the bad, the ugly. Everything in there. And there are some people who are upset that I actually went out and said that I had a good working relationship with the president.
And so, they are trying to create excuses for that. So, they are saying I want to be vice president. Mike Pence has been a good vice president to our president. He's a friend of mine. He's done a good job. Those two are strong together. I'm going to be supporting both of them. I'm going to be campaigning for both of them.
The reason I said what I said in the book is because it was the truth. I did have a good working relationship with the president. This isn't me trying to get any --
MACCALLUM: But you know, this president is so unconventional. And the idea that he might decide to switch gears is not -- nothing is out of the box with President Trump. If he came to you and said, you know what, I talked to Mike, you know, he understands, he did a great job, but you are up next, what would you say?
HALEY: Not going to happen. He is very pleased with Vice President Pence. They've already put their names on the ballot. I think it was in New Hampshire, or wherever that was. No, I've never had one conversation with him about it. It's just not -- it's just not happening.
MACCALLUM: So, what is next for you politically?
HALEY: You know, I have to figure that out. I take it a year at a time. I'm campaigning for some really good people, Cory Gardner in Colorado, Joni Ernst of Iowa.
MACCALLUM: In some place.
HALEY: You know, I'm trying to fund raise and help them get reelected. And so, you know, just came out with the book and we're on our 15th city book tour. So, you know, having fun with that. So, we'll take it a year at a time.
MACCALLUM: So last question, Hillary Clinton said that many, many, many, I forget how many, I think four people are asking her that she should really consider running. What do you think?
HALEY: You know, I don't see it. But certainly, if she wants to jump in, she can. But you know what this really says is, they are not happy with the field they have. You know, you wouldn't be talking about it if you thought you had a strong slate. And I think that Democrats realize they don't have a really strong slate. But I'm not sure that she is going to be the one that gets them there at the end.
MACCALLUM: Great to have you here.
HALEY: Thanks. Good to be here.
MACCALLUM: Ambassador Nikki Haley. The book is called "With All Due Respect." Great to talk to you. Come back soon.
HALEY: Thanks so much.
MACCALLUM: Good to see you.
HALEY: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, as we said, Hillary Clinton says the phone is just ringing off the hook. And people want her to run. They want her to get in to this race for president and they want to do it now. Jesse Watters has been talking about that. He's calling her all the time and asking her to run. He'll be up next.
MACCALLUM: Student reporters at Northwestern University under fire for essentially apologizing for practicing journalism. It all started when students from the Daily Northwestern covered protests of a speech by Jeff Sessions.
But when the paper published photos of students at the protest that you are seeing right now, and then they were reached out to buy some of the reporters for an interview about what happened that night, they faced a campus backlash.
In response, the paper wrote an editorial apologizing, saying, quote, "Some of our staff members who were covering the event used Northwestern's directory to obtain phone numbers for students beforehand and texted them to ask if they would be willing to be interviewed. We recognize that being contacted like this is an invasion of privacy."
But that response caused an uproar among alumni and journalist, understandably so.
Joining me now, Jonathan Hoenig, founder of Capitalist Pig hedge fund, and a Fox News Network contributor who was once featured on the cover of the Daily Northwestern when he was a student there. There he is. Jonathan, good to have you here.
I mean, first of all, the headline is that Jeff Sessions, you know, got shouted out at that place, the protesters were sort of overwhelming, and it became an unsafe situation or potentially unsafe situation and he had to be escorted out of there.
JONATHAN HOENIG, FOX BUSINESS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean, Martha, it seems to me as if those disruptors. I won't even call them protesters. They were there to disrupt Jeff Sessions' speech. And those disruptors, not the journalists, those disruptors, they were the ones who should be apologizing here.
Look, I was shocked and very surprised to see this apology from the Daily Northwestern. When I was a student there, Martha, the thing that was exciting about college was the debate, was the opposing viewpoints --
HOENIG: -- radical viewpoints and the opportunity to not just debate them but to challenge them and to ultimately try to get to the truth. And that's what's so frustrating here, is that the goal should be get to the truth.
And meanwhile, here we have the journalist apologizing for it when it should be the protesters, so-called protesters. They're the ones who should apologize.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Here's a quote from Medill, it's one of the finest, you know, historically, one of the finest journalism schools in the country at Northwestern.
MACCALLUM: This is a quote from the dean, Charles Whitaker, responding to the attacks by journalists. "And to swarm -- and the swarm of alums and journalists who are outraged by The Daily editorial and have been equally rancorous in their condemnation of our students on social media, I say, give the young people a break. What they need at this moment is our support and encouragement to stay the course."
I mean, this seems to me, if you are covering any event, which I have done for over 20 years --
MACCALLUM: -- you watch who is there, you try to contact them, you get sound bites from them, you get quotes from them to put in the paper, why are you here tonight, what is upsetting about this Jeff Sessions issue.
The idea that these protesters who want to put themselves out there are traumatized by the fact that someone wants to talk to them about it is in itself very weird.
HOENIG: Yes. I mean, what it is, Martha, you are trained properly. These, I think young people, unfortunately, their education is doing them a disservice because it is the elevation -- and we are seeing this at Northwestern and college campuses, particularly the elite college campuses, it's the elevation of feelings, Martha.
HOENIG: It's the elevation of the motion emotion over anything. Even student journalists who were doing their job. And you know, if young people want to come out and protest and make a disruption in public --
HOENIG: -- boy, they should be ready to have their photo taken --
HOENIG: -- and have that public, a photo public.
MACCALLUM: And you know what, if a reporter calls and you don't want to talk to them, you can hang up the phone. I've had it happen to me many, many times. But that's part of the process, just say no.
HOENIG: Yes. And they're getting it, Martha. I will quickly say.
HOENIG: Unfortunately, these young people, they are getting it from their professors.
HOENIG: Their professors are the one who taught them about safe spaces.
MACCALLUM: yes, so soft. My God.
HOENIG: And that's where they are getting it, unfortunately. It's happening in campuses all over the country.
MACCALLUM: Jonathan, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.
HOENIG: You too.
MACCALLUM: Stick around. Speaking of safe spaces, Jesse Watters is coming up next. He has one step closer to being right here with us this evening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I will certainly tell you I'm under --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Many, many, many, many people are calling Hillary. They want her to run for president again. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: As I say, never, never, never say never. And I will certainly tell you, I am under enormous pressure for many, many, many people to think about it but as of this moment, sitting here in this studio talking to you, that is absolutely not in my plans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: In this particular moment, in this second, my answer is absolutely no. Jesse Watters, co-host of The Five, host of Watters World, joins me now. You actually want Hillary Clinton to run again.
JESSE WATTERS, HOST: Yes, I was the called her.
WATTERS: On the phone.
MACCALLUM: Me too.
MACCALLUM: Many, many and even Jesse Watters.
WATTERS: Remember that was the phone that she didn't smash with a hammer. Remember that?
MACCALLUM: I remember that.
WATTERS: That was that one phone she didn't smash. She could get in. And you know, it would be really ugly to wrestle this thing away from Liz and from Bernie and from Joe. And I'd love every minute of it because it would be expensive and brutal.
But the real reason she can't do it is because she lacks one thing. A deep well of goodwill from Democrat voters. Remember, she lost in humiliating fashion. She did not lose gracefully. It was not a squeaker. He won, Donald Trump, major swing states, the three blue states --
MACCALLUM: Electorally it was not a squeaker but she would of course, if she were here, she would tell you that she won the popular vote.
WATTERS: Right. But lost three big blue states, self-inflicted wounds --
MACCALLUM: By, I don't know, a combination of like 50,000 people --
WATTERS: Sure. You know, the e-mail scandal, so much baggage.
MACCALLUM: But she looks so -- she thinks like, OK, no big deal, I just have to show up in Wisconsin, I've got to show up in Pennsylvania, and I've got to show up in Michigan, and I'm going to get this thing up.
WATTERS: Sure. I mean, it was that easy, she should've done it last time. I just think she is teasing us to sell books for Chelsea.
MACCALLUM: I think that that might be part of it but I also think she also said in a response to one of the questions, of course I think about what it would be like if I was president. I think about it all --
WATTERS: Every single day.
MACCALLUM: -- the time. It haunts me. I added that.
WATTERS: You know, it haunts me to.
MACCALLUM: She also had some advice for Meghan Markle, and she says that, you know, she thinks that Meghan Markle is being, you now, oppressed or she is upset and she feels stressed out about her role in the royal family because of her gender and her race. And here's what she said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You do think gender and race are coming --
CLINTON: Absolutely. So, if you go back and look at social media from the time the engagement was announced, race was clearly an element in it. And to think that some of your, what we would call, mainstream media, actually allowed that to be printed in their pages --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or amplified.
CLINTON -- amplified, was heartbreaking and wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: She just said she wants to give her a big hug. She was speaking to the British press there, I believe. And she was saying, you know, in your papers, that this is the way it was presented. I don't remember that here.
MACCALLUM: People attacking her based on her race or her gender. But it's been tough for her. Hillary wants to give her a big, big hug.
WATTERS: I mean, Meghan Markle has servants. Why do we feel bad for Meghan Markle? She's wearing jewelry that cost millions of dollars. She is traveling all over the world.
WATTERS: You know, when I peruse the British tabloids, Martha, as I do, the main problem is the beef between the princes. Was it William and Harry?
WATTERS: They don't get along. Their wives don't get along.
MACCALLUM: Well, there's just (Inaudible) about this, this whole thing apparently.
WATTERS: They don't take vacation together.
MACCALLUM: But here's a message from the new version of "The Crown," which is coming November 17th, I know you can't wait.
WATTERS: I can't wait.
MACCALLUM: But this is the message on how to be royal. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have all made sacrifices and suppressed who we are. It is not a choice. It is a duty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: It doesn't matter who you are and how you feel now.
MACCALLUM: So, don't you understand that? That's how it is.
WATTERS: Do your duty.
MACCALLUM: Do you duty. Stiff upper lip. I'm all for that. So, Dumbo has a disclaimer on it. You know, this week you have this huge Netflix -- I mean, Disney, excuse me, streaming service.
MACCALLUM: Dumbo on the bottom says that, this program is presented as originally created. It may contain outdated cultural depictions.
WATTERS: So yes, they have a disclaimer because, I mean, even you and I could agree, Martha, some of the cartoons back in the '50s, in the '60s, and '70s, a little insensitive towards ethnic groups or foreigners or minorities the way they were depicted. I understand the disclaimer. It just covers them. That's fine.
MACCALLUM: Here's one of the ones that they were talking about, which are crows can -- we are going to play it. That it could be potentially unnerving or upsetting to some people. They say there are stereotypes of African-Americans, stereotypes of Asians that are not necessarily the way that we would present them today.
And here is one from "Snow White" which does not have a disclaimer on it, but, you know, it might be coming given this moment.
You know, I think that's very romantic. But some people would say that she's not giving any consent there actually.
WATTERS: It's like "Baby It's Cold Outside."
MACCALLUM: She did not agree to be kissed.
WATTERS: Yes. You can't have any romance. It's too bad. I mean, I have never -- I have never gotten permission for anything I've done.
MACCALLUM: I don't know if we really want to go there. No, no, no, no. Rewind the tape. Thanks, Jesse.
WATTERS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, are the allegations that you heard on Capitol Hill today enough to undo the 2016 election? Geraldo Rivera has a quick theory tonight on his thoughts, joining us from Cleveland on what he watched today, when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF, D-CALIF.: Look, I am reserving judgment on the ultimate questions once the testimony is complete.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: The captain of this impeachment ship not ready for prepping the articles of impeachment after today's testimony. So, what exactly did today do in terms of moving the needle in either direction?
Here now, Geraldo Rivera, a Fox News correspondent-at-large. Geraldo, always good to see you. What was your take --
GERALDO RIVERA, CORRESPONDENT-AT-LARGE: Hi, Martha.
MACCALLUM: What did you think about today?
RIVERA: Well, first of all, Adam Schiff just stand there that's the most disingenuous statement I think I've heard all year.
MACCALLUM: You don't believe it?
RIVERA: He's been prepping the articles of impeachment -- yes. He's been wanting to impeach this president since day one. At least with the Russia collusion hoax they had allegations, however outlandish, that if they were true, they would rise to the level required by article two section four of the Constitution.
It would not be treason, bribery, high crimes or misdemeanor, but this is tacky talk. I mean, my basic observation in watching it is the president has the worst telephone security. Worse than my Aunt Amy when we move from Brooklyn to Long Island then we have the party line and everybody could listen into the conversations.
It is there's clearly no consciousness of guilt on the president's behalf. You know, I just think it's, you know, the way he does business it's kind of blustery and tacky talk. That's what I think it is.
MACCALLUM: Here's Joe Biden. He just a second ago we got this in of what his reaction was to today. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you watch today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could we get a quick reaction, Mr. Biden?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you watch today?
JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I didn't get to see anything. I heard it was pretty devastating for the president.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How so?
BIDEN: You saw it. You know how so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: He just says.
RIVERA: Well, I clearly disagree with the former vice president. I think that what you had here was hearsay on top of hearsay on top of hearsay. This one heard, this one saying that this happened.
RIVERA: You know, I wouldn't be surprised if the president, knowing the unconventional way he does business, in the kind of stream of consciousness, saying Ukraine, what do I care about Ukraine? We got to give him aid. Biden. Joe Biden, corruption. Hunter Biden. I could see how he could bring it up in that sense.
But again, where is the malevolence? Where is the crime? There is no crime alleged. They tried to change from quid pro quo to extortion and bribery. Where is the extortion if the purported victim, the president of the Ukraine says it doesn't happen? So how do you have a prosecution without a star witness? It just seems preposterous to me, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Eric Swalwell was at the top of the show disagreed. So, we got all viewpoints on it today. Geraldo, thank you very much. Always good to see you.
RIVERA: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So that is “The Story” on Wednesday, November 13, 2019. But as always, “The Story” keeps going on and on. So, we will be back here tomorrow night. We'll look for you then. Have a good night. Tucker is up next.
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