This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," August 14, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


Governor Mike Pence in his first Sunday show interview since becoming Donald Trump’s running mate, only on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE: On his role in the campaign.

Are you the cleanup crew?

Top Republicans declaring never Trump.

They say we can't trust Donald Trump to be commander-in-chief.

And Trump's claim President Obama and Hillary Clinton founded ISIS.

Now, Trump says that he was being sarcastic. So, Governor, which is it?

Governor Mike Pence one-on-one. It's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.

Then, new questions about the relationship between the Clinton Foundation and the State Department. We'll talk with Senator Claire McCaskill, a top Clinton supporter, about the possibility of an FBI investigation.

Plus, the candidates clash over the economy.

HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: He wants America to work for him and his friends at the expense of everyone else.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Every policy she has tilts the playing field towards another countries, at our expense.

WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday panel what their plans will do for your pocketbooks.

All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."


And hello again from FOX News in Washington.

Well, it's been quite a week for both presidential candidates. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton laid out their programs to get the economy growing faster and both had to deal with new controversy. Trump from more self-inflicted wounds, Clinton from still more e-mails that showed a cozy relationship between the Clinton Foundation and her State Department.

On Friday, we traveled to the governor's residence in Indianapolis, home of the Republican vice presidential nominee, Mike Pence. In his first Sunday show interview since the conventions, we talked about the challenges facing both campaigns.


WALLACE: Governor Pence, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday" and thank you for inviting us here to the governor's residence.


WALLACE: Do you believe that Hillary Clinton was involved in a pay-to-play arrangement as secretary of state with big donors of the Clinton Foundation?

PENCE: Well, it looks that way more and more every day, doesn't it? We -- the new e-mails that have been made public just in the last week seem to make a direct connection between favors done by State Department officials and major foreign donors to the Clinton Foundation. The American people have a right to know.

I think people of this country are tired of the pay to play politics in Washington D.C., and I promise you that when Donald Trump and I arrive at the White House, we're going to bring all of that to an end.

WALLACE: Do you have any evidence that she actually took action as a result of these big donations? And when you say, the American people have a right to know, do you think there should be an investigation, a federal investigation?

PENCE: Well, certainly, there are officials at the FBI. We also found out this week -- believe that there should be an investigation, and Obama's Department of Justice apparently has shut that down. But look, these are very serious allegations. Now, we have evidence in writing, in this e-mail chain, of connections between foreign donors to the Clinton Foundation and --

WALLACE: But did she take action in response to that?

PENCE: Well, I think that's what we need to find out. We really do. The public has a right to know, because this -- really and truly, this is exactly the kind of pay to play politics the American people are sick and tired of.

But frankly, it is just one more example of the way I do believe that the Clintons have been operating over the last 30 years.

And it's one of the reasons why the American people have a fixed opinion about Hillary Clinton and her trustworthiness, and why we so much need to elect Donald Trump as the next president of the United States. It's important for our security, for our prosperity, but also, we have to make sure that the highest standards of ethics are in the highest office in the land, and that will happen the day Donald Trump becomes president of the United States.

WALLACE: Now, Donald Trump has opened a new line of attack against Hillary Clinton saying that she and Obama were the most valuable players for ISIS.


TRUMP: ISIS is honoring President Obama. He is the founder of ISIS. He's the founder of ISIS. He's the founder. He founded ISIS. And I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hillary Clinton.


WALLACE: You and he spent a day defending his remarks, saying that they were serious. Now, Trump says that he was being sarcastic.

So, Governor, which is it?

PENCE: Well, I think he was being very serious, and he was making a point that needs to be made, that there is no question that the failed policies of President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, in the wider Middle East, created a vacuum within Iraq in which ISIS was able to arise. There's essentially no question --

WALLACE: So then why is he saying he was sarcastic?

POENCE: Well, he was making a very serious point, and look --

WALLACE: Forgive me, why did he say he was being sarcastic?

PENCE: Well, he was making a very serious point. Donald Trump has a way of talking to get people's attention, and it's drawn attention to a very important issue.

There was a time when any Democrat president knew where the buck stopped in the White House. And the responsibility for the failed policies in the Middle East that created the environment where ISIS developed belongs to President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and the American people know that.

WALLACE: Governor, those are all perfectly legitimate points to make, but that isn't what Trump said. He said that Obama and Clinton were the most valuable players of ISIS, that they were the co-founders of ISIS. Then he said, well, I was just being sarcastic about that, just as he said he was just being sarcastic about inviting Russia to come in and release e-mails of Hillary Clinton’s.

Isn't the sarcastic excuse getting a bit old?

PENCE: Well, no, I don't think it's getting old at all, Chris. Donald Trump made his way through a very competitive primary because he spoke not like your typical politician, but just plainly like an every day American. And speaking plainly is exactly what the American people will anticipate in the course of this election, but more importantly, they're going to have a president who tells them exactly what's on his mind, and the American people are going to hear and hear him loudly.

WALLACE: Trump is making what your campaign calls a major speech on Monday about radical Islamic terrorism. Up to this point, he has not offered really any details as to how he would beat ISIS. So what is his plan?

PENCE: Well, get ready. Monday in Ohio, I'll be with him on that day. He'll do exactly what he did this last Monday on his economic plan. He's going to lay out his vision and his strategy for defeating radical Islamic terrorism.

WALLACE: Specifics?

PENCE: I think you're going to be ready, Chris, for a vision, but also for real specifics about how new leadership in the White House, a change of direction in the White House and the kind of broad shouldered leadership that Donald Trump will bring is going to make our country more safe.

WALLACE: But this week, 50 former top national security officials, all of the Republicans, said that they could not vote for Donald Trump. So did the respected, moderate, Republican Senator Susan Collins, and what they said was that he's too reckless to be president.


GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN (RET), FORMER NSA & CIA DIRECTOR: We all felt strongly enough about what we believed to be a clear and present danger that we felt compelled to say what we said.


WALLACE: We're talking, here, sir, about a senior senator, former head of the CIA, two former secretaries of homeland security. They say we can't trust Donald Trump to be commander-in-chief.

PENCE: Well, I'm old enough to remember a president that you covered a few years back who, when he was running for president in 1979 and '80, they were saying about the same thing.

WALLACE: But there was never that kind of mass defection from the Republican --

PENCE: Well, I think there was just as much criticism of Ronald Reagan’s broad shouldered approach to foreign policy.

And so, I understand when a lot of people in the establishment that have been part of the very policies that have put the world stage in the condition that it is today have anxiety about the clear-eyed leadership that he's going to bring.

WALLACE: Both Trump and Clinton offered their economic plans this week, and there were some big differences, especially on taxes. Trump cuts taxes on the rich, Clinton raises them. Trump wants to repeal the estate tax, which already exempts the first $5 million for an individual. Clinton raises the estate tax. And Trump wants a new tax deduction to cover childcare expenses. Clinton says, expanding the childcare tax credit helps lower income families more.

Question, Governor: why shouldn't middle class families look at those two plans and say that at least on taxes, Clinton offers them a better deal?

PENCE: Oh, I think -- I think, not only middle class Americans like my wife and I, but every American knows that the pathway to prosperity in this country is not going to be found in raising taxes. Hillary Clinton is planning over a trillion dollars in tax increases and --

WALLACE: But it's all on the rich (ph).

PENCE: That 47-minute speech she did, I was told there was over a trillion dollars in new spending.

And what Donald Trump laid out was in a very real sense, what's worked here in Indiana, what's worked in Republican-led states around the country, and that is, you let people keep more of what they earn. You unleash the power of this economy by rolling back regulation and red tape, repealing Obamacare. You end the war on coal, and develop all the energy resources of our land, and then you have tougher and smarter trade deals, and that'll get this economy moving again.

Hillary Clinton's plan is just more of the same old, same old failed policies that have led us to a place where, Chris, we're in the middle of the slowest economic recovery since the Great Depression.

WALLACE: Trump would also cut all business income to 15 percent -- then Clinton says, the result of that is that Trump would give himself a big tax cut. She even has a name for it. T


CLINTON: Let's call it the Trump loophole. Because it would allow him to pay less than half the current tax rate on income from many of his companies. He'd pay a lower rate than millions of middle class families.


WALLACE: The Trump loophole?


PENCE: The United States has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the western world, Chris, and it's driving jobs out of this country, and Donald Trump's committed not only to cutting taxes across the board for every American, but also lowering the corporate tax rate so that businesses large and small can be competitive.

WALLACE: But, Governor, what we're talking about here is something called pass-through business income, and analysts say 2/3 of that income goes to the top 1 percent. So if he's cutting the income tax rate for this kind of business income, 2/3 of it is going to the top 1 percent. They're making out, not the middle class.

PENCE: I don't think the American people spend the time that people on the left and Hillary Clinton and her supporters spend picking winners and losers in the economy. The American people know that if we have the right policies, everybody wins. And we're living in a time where now for more than a decade, real personal income has been stagnant. And so, you know, I know that Hillary Clinton and her team said that the expectations that Donald Trump articulated were wildly unrealistic.

Well, what I think is wildly unrealistic is electing the same people with the same ideas and expecting a different result.

WALLACE: Let's do a lightening round -- quick questions, quick answers.

You had an interesting exchange with a young man on the campaign trail recently.


UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I’ve been noticing that you've been kind of softening up on Mr. Trump's policies and words. Is this going to be your role in the administration?

PENCE: Sometimes things don't always come out like you mean, right?


WALLACE: Are you the cleanup crew?


PENCE: I couldn't be more honored to be campaigning shoulder to shoulder with a man who I believe is going to be the next president of the United States.

WALLACE: But you do have to clean up. You do have to explain some of the things he says.

PENCE: Well, look, we have different styles, but as I told that little boy, we have exactly the same convictions. We both believe we can make America great again. We'll return to those time honored principles of standing tall on the world stage, rebuilding our military, unleashing the full potential of the American economy, and letting the American people stand tall again.

WALLACE: Trump has banned reporters who he thinks are unfair from attending his campaign events. You said you were going to talk to him about that? Have you gotten him to lift the blacklist?

PENCE: I don't think Donald Trump is having any problem getting press at this point.


WALLACE: That's a serious question, his banning people, and I know you have a strong feeling about a free press. Have you gotten him to change his mind?

PENCE: We'll keep our private conversations private, but that's an ongoing discussion in the campaign, and I'll -- I do believe in the public's right to know, whether it's about these latest allegations about Hillary Clinton or otherwise, and we’ll continue that -- we'll continue to advance that principle.

WALLACE: You have been running for office, winning office, serving the country, for about a quarter of a century. When you hear Donald Trump go after a Gold Star family, when you hear him refusing to endorse someone like Paul Ryan, when you hear him suggest that he might not defend our NATO allies -- as a serious man, do you ever shake your head?

PENCE: I really couldn't be more honored to be standing shoulder to shoulder with Donald Trump. Look, he's not someone that spent a lifetime in politics. He speaks his heart and he speaks his mind.

And I truly do believe, this good man is going to be a great president of the United States.

WALLACE: People are increasingly concerned about his temperament because of the statements he makes in public. What would you say to people who have those doubts? May think, gee, I'm not crazy about Hillary Clinton, but I'm scared of Donald Trump?

PENCE: I would say, stay tuned, very early in this campaign. This coming Monday, you're going to see a vision for confronting radical Islamic terrorism. Last week, you heard a bristling approach to having a growing economy.

WALLACE: So you're saying, don't give up on him?

PENCE: I'm saying stay tuned. It's still early in this campaign, and I'm just very confident.

WALLACE: Let's talk about you and your record. You signed a religious freedom law last year that, under heavy fire, you agreed to soften. So let me ask you personally -- do you believe that a business owner, a person who owns a bakery, a photography shop, whatever, should have the right to refuse to serve a gay if he feels that it violates his religious convictions?

PENCE: Chris, if I was in a restaurant and I saw someone denied service because they were gay, my family wouldn't eat there again. I don't believe in discrimination and I don't support discrimination against anyone.

But when there is a conflict of rights here in our society, those are the proper purview of the courts. And I do believe that the efforts we made in Indiana contributed to being able to resolve those things as Americans have done for generations.

WALLACE: Finally, you signed an abortion bill this year that bans a woman for getting an abortion because her fetus has genetic abnormalities. Now, I know that you would like to see Roe versus Wade reversed. But given the fact that it's still the law of the land, why does the state have the authority to limit the reasons a woman has to end her pregnancy?

PENCE: Well, I'm pro-life, I don't apologize for it. I'd like to see Roe versus Wade overturned and consigned to the ash heap of history.

We took a stand in the state of Indiana, that frankly many countries have taken, that abortions for the reason of race or sex are morally offensive, and we stand by that. But we also cherish those who have disabilities in the state of Indiana, and taking a step in the direction of protecting the unborn -- who are facing physical challenges and disabilities, I think was the right thing to do.

WALLACE: And you still believe that, that a woman should not be allowed to have an abortion --

PENCE: Well, it's before the courts right now, and the courts will resolve that matter --

WALLACE: But you still believe that?

PENCE: I believe in the sanctity of life, and I stand for that principle, and I'm grateful to be standing with Donald Trump in his strong commitment to the right to life.

WALLACE: Governor, thank you. Safe travels on the campaign trail.

PENCE: Thank you.

WALLACE: Please come back, sir.

PENCE: Great to be with you.


WALLACE: Up next, Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill, one of Hillary Clinton's earliest supporters, responds to Governor Pence and to new questions about links between the Clinton Foundation and Hillary Clinton's State Department.


WALLACE: E-mails are back in the news, raising more questions about the relationship between the Clinton Foundation and Hillary Clinton's time as secretary of state. This as polls show Clinton pulling ahead of Donald Trump in key swing states.

Joining me now from St. Louis, Senator Claire McCaskill, one of the first members of Congress to endorse Clinton for president.

Senator, the State Department released more emails this week under a lawsuit that raised serious questions about the link between the Clinton and the State Department when Hillary Clinton was the secretary there.

You just heard Governor Pence say that the American people have a right to know if there was a pay to play situation. Do you support the idea of an investigation?

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: Well, first of all, let's give this context, Chris. This was a right wing partisan organization, Judicial Watch, that has been after Hillary Clinton for decades. They got thousands of e-mails. They released two of them, trying to give the perception of a problem.

But if you really look at those two e-mails, one was about recommending a former staffer for a job and other was just somebody who wanted to give the State Department information. There's no evidence that Hillary Clinton ever changed anything she did in the State Department based on any activities of the Clinton foundation. There's none.

WALLACE: Well, let's take a look at that second case that you're talking about. This involves a fellow named Doug Band who was a top official at the Clinton foundation. He e-mails Huma Abedin, one of Secretary Clinton's closest aides, to arrange for Gilbert Chagoury, who contributed at least $1 million to the foundation, to talk to a top U.S. official.

Senator McCaskill, you don't have a problem with big donors to the foundation getting favors from the State Department?

MCCASKILL: Well, first of all, all this gentleman wanted to do was give information. He was asking for nothing. He --

WALLACE: But we don't know that.


WALLACE: That's what Gilbert Chagoury says. Gilbert Chagoury is a fellow who has been in trouble with the law, had to give back millions of dollars. He says he wanted to talk to tell them about what his insight into the election in Lebanon. We don't know if that's true.

MCCASKILL: Well, we do know this. We know there's no evidence based on what the State Department has said in the last few days, based on all of the investigations that have been done around an unprecedented release of e-mails in government, that there are no laws that have been broken. There was no evidence there was any pay-to-play.

And, frankly, this is a distraction for the Trump campaign, which is a dumpster fire at this point. I think they are anxious to try to get people to look over here, look over here, because if you look at what Donald Trump is saying and doing, it is in many ways frightening.

WALLACE: Well, I’m going to get into that in a minute. But I do want to ask you one more question with regard to this. You say that there were no favors done. Let’s talk about another case, Rajiv Fernando. He is -- was a securities trader who gave at least $1 million to the foundation and was appointed to the international security advisory board, Senator, although he had absolutely no qualifications and no experience in that area.

MCCASKILL: I’m not sure that was a good idea. On the other hand, I think everyone kind of glosses over the fact that this foundation was doing charitable work around the world. I mean, how much time has been given to really talk about the work of the Clinton Foundation. This wasn't money going in the Clinton family's pocket. This was money going to fight malaria and AIDS and to lower child mortality around the globe.

The idea that anyone who gave millions to the Clinton Foundation --


WALLACE: Senator, you certainly can't argue that that justifies putting a big donor on an official advisory board who had no experience in that area and when his -- that fact that he was on the board was revealed, he quit within 24 hours.

MCCASKILL: Well, I will just say, I don't know why he quit. I don't know why he was appointed. I do know this. No one has been investigated more than Hillary Clinton in the history of presidential politics.

And I know that when Jim Comey was lauded by the Republicans prior to him saying no law had been broken, they changed their tune when he didn't give them the answer they wanted. And, frankly, Donald Trump is on a campaign to undermine law enforcement in this country by eating at the very fabric of trust in the FBI which I think is really unfortunate.

WALLACE: All right. Let's talk about the economic plan that Clinton unveiled this week and let's go through it. She would raise taxes $1.2 trillion over the decade as I said to Governor Pence, almost all of it on the rich. She wants $1.4 trillion from more in government spending, including $275 billion more for infrastructure and she wants more regulation.

Question, Senator, isn't that more of the same Obama policies that have given us the weakest recovery since 1949?

MCCASKILL: Well, I would argue that Trump's economic plan is more of the same, because once again, it's all about helping the 1 percent. I don't think that Donald Trump understands that most Americans are frustrated at stagnating wages and the shrinking of the middle class.

It's a real contrast between these two economic plans. One is about, yes, infrastructure, which we desperately need. It’s a government function and it’s good jobs. The other is about giving himself a tax break.

You know, same old, same old. Let's take care of the wealthy in this country while middle class families are struggling to figure out if they can afford to send their kids to college. I think she is representing the change in terms of what our economy really needs. He's representing exactly what we’ve got now.

WALLACE: But, Governor, you're talking about stagnating the middle class and no wage increases for the middle class. Clinton is talking about higher taxes, more regulation, more government spending. That's been the Obama policy for the last eight years.

Isn't she offering the same old, same old?


WALLACE: Let me say in terms of infrastructure, there was a big stimulus package and when Obama first came in and we still have got to all these problems and a weak recovery.

MCCASKILL: Well, we certainly did a better job coming out of the deep hole that the Bush administration left us in in most countries of the world because of our stimulus program. We had month after month, I think 74, 75, 75 straight months of job growth in this country because of the economic policies of this administration.

But we know we have to do more. We have to make sure that college is a reachable goal for all Americans. Not just Donald Trump's family. We need to make sure that the rich pay their fair share, which clearly they are not right now.

So I that I what we're looking at here is one candidate with specificity laying out a real roadmap for the middle class, the other one taking care of himself which should be no surprise.

WALLACE: Let's turn to Donald Trump's charge that Hillary Clinton was one of the founders of ISIS. Now, while that was clearly over the top, the fact is that she was the secretary of state at the time that the Obama administration pulled all U.S. troops out of Iraq. She was the secretary of state who was pushing President Obama to intervene in Libya, which helped create a vacuum that ISIS has helped filled.

Doesn't she bear some responsibility if not the founder, some responsibility for the rise of ISIS?

MCCASKILL: Well, first of all, the language that Donald Trump has used as it relates to ISIS is disrespectful to the military that is out there fighting ISIS every day.

Just last week, Chris, we took out eight tankers in ISIS, we took out mortar, we hit a tactical unit. We have shrunk the area of ISIS in Iraq by 40 percent. We'd shrunk the area of ISIS in Syria and serious by 20 percent.

The men and women that are risking their lives every day through the orders of their commander-in-chief, when they hear a presidential candidate try to act like our president is on the bad guy's side, how do you think that makes them feel as they're out there in the field fighting?

WALLACE: In fairness, Senator, he isn't criticizing her in any way or denigrating the work of the military. He's saying that President Obama and Hillary Clinton made some bad decisions that have led to the present situation.

MCCASKILL: Well, you can -- there's a lot of reasons that ISIS rose up. One of them was the status of forces agreement known as SOFA that Bush negotiated. We couldn't leave our troops in Iraq even if the president wanted to because the parliament in Iraq was refusing to give them immunity.

Now, Trump probably thinks the SOFA, the status of forces agreement, is a gilded couch at Mar-A-Lago. He probably doesn't know what SOFA is. But that was a very relevant part of this.

It was also important to realize that Assad, by what he did in his country, allowed ISIS to move into what was then Iraq -- al Qaeda in Iraq into Syria and get strongholds and recruit. That was the work and support of Putin who is Trump's best buddy. So, you can say Trump and his friend Putin are the founder of ISIS, which probably would be more accurate than calling out the commander-in-chief in that way.

WALLACE: Well, I’m glad for that last comment. That will certainly get Donald Trump's attention.

Senator McCaskill, thank you. Thanks for your time this week. And it’s always good to talk with you.

MCCASKILL: Thank you.

WALLACE: Up next, more on the controversies facing both candidates. We'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss that and the growing Clinton lead in the polls.

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about the Clinton Foundation and a potential FBI investigation? Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday, and we may use your question on the air.


WALLACE: Coming up, Trump and Clinton lay out their plans for the economy.


TRUMP: There will be no change under Hillary Clinton.

CLINTON: I will have your back every single day that I serve.


WALLACE: We’ll ask our Sunday group about the candidate’s ideas on taxes, trade and spending.



CLINTON: Donald Trump simply does not have the temperament to be president and commander in chief of the United States.

TRUMP: Hillary Clinton said, I don't like his tone. See, I don't like her temperament, because her temperament is the temperament of a loser. We need a tough temperament.


WALLACE: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump each getting personal about why the other is unfit to be president.

And it's time now for our Sunday group. Syndicated columnist George Will, Bob Woodward from "The Washington Post," Charles Lane also from "The Post," and Rachel Campos-Duffy, the national spokesperson for the Libre Initiative, a nonprofit that education Latinos about conservative positions.

Well, it's hard to keep up with all the controversial things that Donald Trump says. Here are the highlights just from this week.


TRUMP: If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know.

Having a tremendous problem in Utah. Now, Utah’s a different place and I don’t know if any -- is anybody here from Utah? I mean, it’s -- I didn't think so.

So I said, the founder of ISIS. Obviously I'm being sarcastic. Then -- then -- but not that sarcastic, to be honest with you.



Rachel, you are a Trump supporter. Does any of that give you pause?

RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, THE LIBRE INITIATIVE: Well, let me just say, personally, I think when -- for me personally, I think between Trump and Hillary, I'm a hash tag never Hillary. My organization is a nonprofit that's nonpartisan.

WALLACE: Right. Right.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: So I'm here representing them.

Just, listen, here is the -- here is the lesson from this week for him. If this campaign is about Trump, Trump loses. If this becomes about Hillary, her corruption, if it becomes about Supreme Court judges, if it becomes about her dismal record as secretary of state, then I think he has a shot of winning.

I just want to point out one double standard here. Back in April, Hillary said, quote, "his insulting language towards Muslims is making him the recruiting sergeant for ISIS." This was not even a blip in the news cycle, and I think it's more proof that the media focuses on things that make, frankly, all of you guys, and me included, a little nervous, things that Trump says, versus things that she has done that ought to scare us. Things like the corruption, the lies, the lack of conscience and, of course, making the world more dangerous under her watch.

WALLACE: Other than that she's doing a heck of a job?

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Other than that, she's doing great.

WALLACE: Trump's self-inflicted wounds and/or the coverage of it seems to be catching up with him. There were some bad numbers from key swing state polls, and let's put those up right now. In Florida, Trump is now down five. In North Carolina he's down nine. In Virginia, Trump down 13. And in Colorado, down 14.

Chuck, we're three weeks from -- still from Labor Day, tomorrow. How serious is this?

CHARLES LANE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": It’s terribly serious for Donald Trump and it’s especially serious in the following way. Every time he's gotten into trouble in the past, his answer has been to say, look at my polls or look at my ratings. He has been fetishistic, really, about the way he harps on his poll numbers and so forth and so on. That has been his answer to everything.

Now, he doesn't have that answer. The polls are showing that the American people, especially in these swing states, are being turned off by the things that he's saying. There was a theory of a Trump victory that went something like this. He will take some old blue states and turn them red. Now what's happening is purple states are turning blue.

WALLACE: Like Utah?

LANE: Well, people are talking about --

WALLACE: The red states.

LANE: He could lose Utah, yes.

WALLACE: Then there's Hillary Clinton and these latest e-mails, which certainly seem to indicate a cozy relationship between the Clinton Foundation and big donors there, and Hillary Clinton’s State Department. Bob, what do you make of all this money going to the foundation or going for huge fees for Bill Clinton's speeches and how the State Department treated those people?

BOB WOODWARD, "THE WASHINGTON POST": No, I mean serious unanswered questions. But if -- if I can step back just for a moment, I mean what's going on here? What's this all about with her and with Trump? In -- in -- in the case of Trump, I have really no idea what he might do if he ever became president. If you look at the statements, the proposals, the ideas, it's a kind of a garage sale and I don't know that there's a Rembrandt behind that lawn mower that won't start. But I haven't seen it. And he has not communicated that. She has somewhat communicated what she would do. But the e-mails, her personal e-mails, remember, the FBI director said there are thousands of e-mails, work-related, that were not turned over. There are those top secret discussions, very, very serious. You find --

WALLACE: Let me just pick that --


WALLACE: Let me just pick it up, though, on the foundation, because that was the new news this week. And -- and one case, Doug Band, who was, as we pointed out, a top official at the foundation. The Clinton campaign says well, no, no, he wasn't working there, he was working as a personal aide, which he was also, to President Clinton, not in his role as a top official of the foundation and not as the head of the Clinton Global Initiative. But isn't that part of the problem, that this -- this public and private all got mixed up?

WOODWARD: Of course, but -- I mean the e-mails all go together. It's not just the Clinton Foundation. What's on her personal e-mail server? I mean, you know, look at -- thousands of things that were not turned over. You find Democrats talking to reporters who cover national security asking, do you know anything? What's going on? They're holding their breath that there might be something here that would be damaging to her candidacy and, even worse, damaging to the national security.

WALLACE: We asked you for questions for the panel and we asked about the Clinton Foundation. We got this on Twitter from John Carney. He tweeted, "why did Justice Department not pursue this?," about the links to the Clinton Foundation. "Was Obama giving Clinton another free pass?"

George, how do you answer, John? And do you think the links between the nexus, between the foundation, the Clinton Global Initiative, the big fees for the Clintons’ speeches, and her work as secretary of state is going to be a problem for her in this campaign?

GEORGE WILL, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: It will be if the media makes it such. That is the IRS scandal, the defining scandal of this administration, the suppression of advocacy by conservative groups simply died from media lack of interest. You used the phrase a moment ago, Chris, the -- that the public and private got tangled up. Hillary Clinton looks at the world through the lens of progressivism. Now, progressive believes that the government should be everywhere and in everything. That everything is political. A natural consequence of progressivism is a blurring of, ultimately the erasure of the distinction between the public and private series of life. Therefore, it is natural to flow from that, that you would send a State Department employee to New York to work on foundation business, that foreign governments with interest in the State Department would give to the foundation and the things would get tangled up.

Now, will this matter in the end? First of all, it's complex. Second, it's very hard to demonstrate. And you saw Claire McCaskill denying it. A quid pro quo connection. That's always hard. Third, there's the question of, will the media drive this. And, finally, with the Clintons responding always, this is old news, the question is, can they run out the clock between now and the Election Day? And my answer is, probably.

WALLACE: Well, the clock has run out for this panel, but we're just going to take a break. And when we come back, Clinton and Trump lay out competing visions for America's economic future. We'll drill down into their proposals on taxes, trade and jobs when we come right back.



CLINTON: There is a myth out there that he will stick it to the rich and powerful because somehow he's really on the side of the little guy. Don't believe it.

TRUMP: All Hillary Clinton has to offer is more of the same, more taxes, more regulations, more bureaucrats, more restrictions on American energy and on American production. More of that.


WALLACE: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump each arguing why they're the one to get the economy growing faster. And we're back now with a panel.

George, how do you compare the Trump and Clinton economic plans when it comes to taxes and spending?

WILL: Well, they agree on two things. One is the infrastructure. They wanted to use this low -- the low cost borrowing environment to double down on that. Second, they want to change tax treatment in some way or another to repatriate the $2 trillion that are parked overseas of American corporate earnings.

She, Trump is absolutely right, wants to double down on the regulatory state, more regulations, higher taxes, more government allocation to wealth and opportunity in society. She thinks it works. He wants to double down on the 1980s, that is the simulative effect of tax cuts and lighter regulation. The problem is, both of them discuss this without looking at the architecture of the federal budget.

Sixty-seven percent of the budget goes to entitlement programs. Another 7 percent to debt service. Another 17 percent for defense. For those of you keeping score at home, that's 91 percent of the federal budget. A few more uncontrollables in there, and you wind up with 6.5 percent of the federal budget is discretionary spending. And they're going to do all of this with that? It defies belief.

WOODWARD: Yes, it’s a pipe dream. And --

WALLACE: For both of them, you're saying?

WOODWARD: Yes. Yes. I mean lots of the -- the money is not there and if Hillary Clinton --

WALLACE: And (INAUDIBLE) is talking about entitlement reform.

WOODWARD: Yes. I mean and -- and even Barack Obama thinks that you -- in his heart he has said, yes, we -- it -- it’s inconceivable that we don't have some sort of entitlement reform because that's almost all of budget and soon will be. But there -- there is this obstacle, at least as best we can tell from the polling, called the Republican House of Representatives. And if Hillary becomes president, these things aren't going to happen. And, I mean, I think George and -- is kind of saying the liberal progressive state is at least stalled in the middle of the road right now.

WILL: A big -- big problem is the American people. That won't put up with any entitlement reform.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: But there is an opportunity here. I just want to talk -- I mean rolling back regulations will stimulate business opportunities for -- for Americans. And I think, if you don't mind, I want -- just want to talk really quickly about Hispanics, because this is a very important demographic. This is the most entrepreneurial demo in the country. They start businesses at three times the rate of the average American. There's an opportunity for Donald Trump, as a very successful businessman, to talk about how his plan will help them start new businesses, make it easier for them to create them, make it easier -- roll back taxes, and, frankly, he's not taking that opportunity and -- and he might have actually ruined any chances by some of his earlier comments.

However, there is an opportunity, especially in Florida, as you know, which is a very important state, we have a thousand Puerto Rican families moving a month, people who have experience in real time the effects of big, unsustainable government. There's a conversation to be had and I don't think that campaign is taking advantage it.

WALLACE: Chuck, do you think it’s fair -- this is the question I raised with Claire McCaskill, that Hillary Clinton's plan, which is tax cuts -- or tax increases on the wealthy, more regulation, more spending, more government spending, things like infrastructure, is basically Obama 2.0.

LANE: Well, in a way it’s -- to just Democratic Party doctrine going back decades, I mean in that sense, yes, it is Obama 2.0 because Obama was a Democrat.

But what strikes me as new and different about the Democrats this year is the abandonment of free trade and free trade agreements. Hillary Clinton herself, as secretary of state, supported the Trans-Pacific Partnership that Barack Obama has championed with Republican support and has been forced off of that by Bernie Sanders and by Donald Trump.

When I looked at these two speeches this week, what I saw was over here you have Donald Trump, which is a grab bag of protectionism and tax cuts for the rich, and Hillary Clinton's was a grab bag of protectionism and tax increases for rich. The only difference between those two plans is that Hillary's polls slightly better because the market, if -- if -- if you agree with the poll, the market for taxes increases on the rich is strong. So whether it's old Democratic medicine or not, it's more popular.

WALLACE: Let’s -- let's play because both candidates did speak about trade and it's been one of the big issues in both the Republican and Democratic races. So let's hear what they had to say in their speeches this week.


CLINTON: Mr. Trump may talk a big game on trade, but his approach is based on fear, not strength.

TRUMP: Hillary Clinton has supported the trade deals, stripping this city and this country of its jobs and its wealth.


WALLACE: George, your thoughts about how trade is playing out in this campaign. At least Trump has been consistent. You can argue -- you can argue whether he's right or wrong, but at least he's been consistent in this campaign. Clinton has really done about a 180-degree flip on trade.

WILL: Trump is a consistent 19th century Republican. When the party believed in tariffs and the federal government was funded by tariffs and sale of land. Since -- subsequently, we have an income tax and things have changed. Hillary Clinton has just, as you say, done a somersault. She has a certain versatility of conviction and it shows in this case particularly. The amazing thing is that no one since the 19th century, no one since around McKinley, has won running on protectionism. And this year is going to be the difference because someone opposed to free trade is going to win.


LANE: But the -- excuse me. The political center in this country on that issue has shifted. And it's between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump has brought that about.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Absolute --

WOODWARD: I get -- you know --

WALLACE: Well, let’s let Rachel --

WOODWARD: Go ahead.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: I was going to say that I agree with you, that it has shifted. And I don't think that people are against trade, I think they just -- that there’s a new way to message about it. And -- and I think it's -- it’s really unfortunate that in this campaign we've seen a denigration of trade. I think it's a lot more complex in Wisconsin. I just talked to a -- I live there. I just talked to a dairy farmer who likes Donald Trump, likes the way he talks about law and order, but says, hey, I export my milk. So I think that there has to be a new way to talk about trade and there has to be a better -- better solution than we've been offering.

WOODWARD: But the trade bump, I mean has -- it has become the idea of a new trade deal has become forbidden. I mean Hillary Clinton said in her speech, I’m a -- was against it, I am against it and I will be against it as president, the Pacific trade deal.

WOODWARD: So, you know, again, a lot of this is just talk. What's actually going to happen? I -- I mean I have to look at the week as a whole and I think Bernie Sanders did something quite brilliant this week, he bought a -- proving that he's a man of the people, he bought a third home, a vacation home, on Lake Champlain so he can go there and write his memoirs about the revolution that didn't quite happen.

WALLACE: Yes, as they say, the one thing they're not making more of, his real estate.

Thank you all, panel.

Up next, our "Power Player of the week." "The Barefoot Contessa" makes cooking easy and fun.


WALLACE: She says entertaining is hard. The trick is to make it easier. As we told you last October, she's been pulling that off for more than 17 years, building an army of devoted fans. Here's our "Power Player of the Week."


INIA GARTEN, "THE BAREFOOT CONTESSA": When you cook, everybody shows up. Who’s going to turn down a home-cooked meal. They're so rare now.

WALLACE (voice-over): Ina Garten is one of America's favorite home cooks. "The Barefoot Contessa," as she's known, has created a food empire. There are the cookbooks.

GARTEN: I've written nine.

WALLACE (on camera): How many books do you have in print?

GARTEN: I don’t know. Well over 10 million.

WALLACE (voice-over): And the show on The Food Network she's been doing 14 years.

GARTEN: How good does this look? It's really like a vegetable stew. I would say, dinner’s served.

WALLACE: Which is why the place was packed at an appearance in Washington last fall.

GARTEN: If I want to do like a French apple tart, I have an idea what the flavor, the texture, the scale, everything about it. And then I keep making it until I get it absolutely right. And sometimes I can do it on five tries and sometimes it takes 25 tries.

WALLACE: That is Garten’s goal, create recipes for cozy meals that look the same on your table as they do in her cookbook.

GARTEN: You can make something really simple and have the same amount of fun.

WALLACE (on camera): How do you make it simpler? How do you make it more fun?

GARTEN: I always try and do three things for dinner. One that’s made in the oven, one that’s on the cook top, and one that was made in advance. So it's -- it’s kind of -- not a balancing act, it’s a really easy thing to do. So I plan it really well.

WALLACE (voice-over): But Garten’s path could not have been less planned. In 1978, she was working in Jimmy Carter's budget office on nuclear energy policy and not liking it. When she saw an ad for a food store in Westhampton, New York, its name, The Barefoot Contessa.

GARTEN: I saw this tiny store. It was like the size of these two chairs. And there was somebody baking cookies in the kitchen. And I thought, this is where I belong.

Where have you been all day?


GARTEN: The mystery. Where have you been?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was up and about. And might have done a little shopping.

WALLACE: Her husband, Jeffrey, a professor and former dean of Yale Business School, has been her best friend along the way, and a featured character on her TV show.

GARTEN: I think everybody thinks he's goofy because he always has -- does these like crazy, goofy things. He's really smart. And he's just a wonderful, wonderful guy.

WALLACE: Garten built a barn next to her house in the Hamptons where she tests her recipes and tapes her show.

GARTEN: There's a wonderful Oscar Wild quote, "work is easy, fun is hard." And I think people are really drawn to people having fun and I love what I do and I think it really translates.

WALLACE (on camera): How long? How long are you going to continue?

GARTEN: Until they drag me out by my feet.

This gives it a really nice complex flavor.

Every recipe is like a science experiment. And when I’m done with it, and there’s that little ping in my head that says, that’s what I was looking for, it’s extremely satisfying and I love that.


WALLACE: Ina isn’t done yet. In October she releases her tenth cookbook "Cooking for Jeffrey," about her husband's favorite recipes and their 47-year marriage.

Now a follow-up on last week’s "Power Player." Katie Ledecky made history this week, sweeping the 200, 400 and 800 meter freestyle swims at the Olympics and setting two world records along the way. She also swam two relays, winning gold and silver. A "Power Player" indeed.

And that's it for today. Have a great week. And we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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