Giuliani stresses limits to any Trump-Mueller interview
Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani says sit-down with the special counsel would be 2 hours with a narrow set of questions; reaction on 'The Five.'
This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 2, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Jesse Watters along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."
Another shake-up to President Trump's legal team as he ramps up his attack on the Russia investigation. White House -- White House lawyer Ty Cobb is out. He retires at the end of the month. Emmet Flood is in. You might remember he represented Bill Clinton during his impeachment. Those changes come as former Trump attorney John Dowd reveals Mueller's team raised the prospect of issuing a grand jury subpoena to compel the president to testify under oath if he doesn't willingly sit down to talk. Current Trump lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, says if there's a sit down there will be limits. He voice concerns about the probe, the White House correspondent, John Roberts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, LEGAL COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: What I'm concern about because I know how -- when you're in the middle of an investigation, you can lose some objectivity is -- are they objective about the presidents interview? Meaning, do they have an open mind to the fact that he could be telling the truth and Comey may be lying? If they have an open mind to that, then this is something we would consider. If they don't, then given all of the irregularities in this investigation, we would be foolish to have him be interviewed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: And here are some stipulations for an interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: What to you would be acceptable parameters for an interview?
GIULIANI: Two hours.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: And topics?
GIULIANI: Questions in advance, relevant topics, meaning, Russia, which may not be relevant any longer. And then we want a commitment to them that they're going to decide before the end of the summer, so we don't have this drag on and further imperiled the presidency and the nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: Mr. Trump firing off on Twitter once again, quote, there was no collusion. It's a hoax. And there's no obstruction of justice. That is a setup and that is a trap. All right. Kimberly--
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yeah.
WATTERS: -- two things going on. We'll talk about the shake-up of the lawyers in a second. But, in terms of this collision course which looks like we're on, we're either going to have this thing go all the way to the Supreme Court--
GUILFOYLE: Right.
WATTERS: -- or they're going to orchestrate some sort of controlled sit down with Mueller, only two hours.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah.
WATTERS: You think those are the stakes?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. You know, I think this is actually really smart and it's quite reasonable. Nobody wants to go all the way and take it and drag it out, etcetera, in terms of that. I think Rudy Giuliani is actually putting some really good parameters and limits on it to say we want to cooperate. We want to talk. Let sit down. Let's limit the time scope and let's have a discussion ahead of time, sort of, meetings of the minds in terms of how it should be conducted, and then the president will cooperate and answer the questions. Now, that sounds quite reasonable, right? That's not something that's -- tweets being fired off or this or that, or any kind of thing, back and forth. They want to answer those questions. And I think what's particularly important what he said, Rudy Giuliani said as long as they have an open mind to be able to listen to the president, have already jumped to a foregone conclusion that Comey is telling the truth, that the president is not, then they're willing to sit down--
WATTERS: How do they determine whether Mueller has an open mind?
GUILFOYLE: Well, Mueller should then reply back, I have an open mind.
(LAUGHTER)
(INAUDIBLE)
WATTERS: So, Dana, Ty Cobb's out. And he, I think, worked for about a year for the president. And he got all the documents over to Mueller, and he set up all the interviews, and now they're bringing in this impeachment lawyer that was working for Bill Clinton. What signal does it sent to you?
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, he didn't just work for Bill Clinton. I know Emmet Flood very well because he worked in the Bush White House as well--
WATTERS: Right.
PERINO: -- he's the deputy for Fred Fielding. I know about how Emmet thinks. He's also has a very wonderful, dry sense of humor. He's a very good lawyer. And we were having that U.S. attorney situation where the Democrats were demanding all these documents from us. We were trying to produce them as fast as we could. The same exact argument that the Republicans are making today against the justice department for not releasing documents, it's a mirror image of what happened back in 2007 and 2008. So, I think that Emmett is a much more assertive and aggressive type of person. He knows special counsel law extremely well. I think there's the feeling that the original team was too accommodating to the Mueller investigation.
And I don't know what this will change -- I think when Rudy Giuliani says that this would be a two hour interview and we'll have to see, the narrow scope, I think that's probably what Emmet Flood talked to them about. Apparently, Jay Sekulow was the one who did a lot of interviewing with Emmet to get to this point. But I also think that we kind of forget, it was about five weeks ago, that Don McGahn, the president's White House counsel, said that he'd like to be gone by the summer. That he would stay until he found his replacement, and that could extend to the midterm. But, Emmet Flood, I think, we'll end up being the White House counsel before the end of the summer.
WATTERS: All right. And, Greg, what we're hearing from the White House is, you know, I'm preparing to broker peace on the North Korean peninsula. I'm trying to negotiate something in Syria. I'm trying to deal with the Iranian nuclear situation. And now, you're making me spend hours prepping for a sit down and wasting my time on this.
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah, it's like studying for the SAT's while you're trying to ride a bike. Anyway, we'll be right back. He should answer these questions on twitter. That's what he should do. I mean, I think two hours is way too long. I don't think he should have given them any time. Just do it in writing somehow. What bothers me most about this is that the investigation, the media, and the Democrats, all appear to be working in tandem. It's like I said yesterday, it's like the Iran deal, the Democrats push the message, the media spreads the message, the investigation broadens. It's a self-perpetuating echo chamber. And what is the echo in that chamber? Unseat and impeach. Instead of a counter vision to -- which requires ideas from Democrats provide to the media, they're relying on the ouster switch. We have to get rid of this guy and this is the way to do it, which is disturbing.
But, to your point, we're probably in one of the most optimistic periods of recent history because we're watching the absence of ISIS videos. We're watching the absence of a North Korean nuclear threat. We're looking at a strong economy and declining crime overall, which is kind of interesting. So, what --have they actually planned this out? They don't have to plan it out. They could just try to impeach the guy, but they should actually think about the long term, what does it mean to the country? What does it mean to half the country? What does it mean to the world? This is not just an attack on the United States. It's the world that's getting less violent. It's the world that's becoming safer because of a reduced North Korean threat and destruction of terrorists groups. It's about the world. Aren't we supposed to be thinking globally?
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
WATTERS: Yes, Juan, let's think globally.
GUTFELD: Yes. Think globally, Juan.
WATTERS: What do you think about all this?
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, I think, you know, to me, it's a more aggressive phase. I think that's what Emmet Flood is. I think you're bringing in somebody who's a puncher and who knows how to fight. The thing is, I think it's Jay Sekulow who has taken the lead here and saying to Ty Cobb, I think it's time to go. And I think you've seen the same thing with John Dowd. Both of them kind of were of a mind that said, the president, if you can talk, let's talk, but we don't think it's a great idea and we counsel against it. The president wasn't listening. But after his lawyer, Cohen -- Michael Cohen's office was raided, I think the president--
WATTERS: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: -- has felt more defensive about giving the interview. And so, now, you're starting to see people who have gone from the litigation phase, I think -- from the discovery phase, I should say, to litigation and now to confrontation. So, the temperature has ramped up big time in the last few hours. And I think it's also contributed -- what's also contributed to the temperature rising is Rod Rosenstein over at justice saying that you have people in the house who are trying to intimidate him and engaged in what he calls extortion.
WATTERS: And we have some of that sound. So, let's hear Rod Rosenstein in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROD ROSENSTEIN, UNITED STATES DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: There are people who have been making threats, privately and publicly against me for quite some time. And I think they should understand by now that the Department of Justice is not going to be extorted. We're going to do what's required by the rule of law, and any kind of threats that anybody makes are not going to affect the way we do our job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: So, one of the reasons the house oversight committee is so frustrated with the Department of Justice, they've asked about Peter Strzok. They've asked about the Hillary investigation. They've asked about Uranium One. They've asked about FISA abuse. And they've been stonewalled for months, and months, and months, and months, and months by Rod Rosenstein and the FBI. There's a real level of frustration that's reaching critical mass there.
WILLIAMS: Can I just interrupt for a second and say, wait a minute, Rod Rosenstein, not only did he help un-justify firing Comey. He gave them the Comey memos that they've requested. What do you mean stonewalled?
WATTERS: Well, they've asked about Peter Strzok and why he was fired, and why it was six months before he was demoted, and that was hidden. They've asked about Uranium One and got no answers. They've asked to see the dossier and the FISA application. What do you mean--
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: This is in the weeds.
WATTERS: It's not in the weeds. That's what began a lot of these investigations.
WILLIAMS: No, I tell you what it is, it's an effort by Trump acolytes to try to undermine the standing of the Justice Department, the FBI, and that is a tragedy. Talk about thinking in the best interests of our country, that's not in the best interests of the country.
WATTERS: Well, I would argue that, Juan, that if the Mueller investigation is looking at Russia collusion, he hasn't asked for a server from the DNC. He hasn't asked for Podesta's server. He hasn't asked anything about the payments made to Christopher Steele, and then those payments were hidden. So, I think there's a lot of collusion on the other side. If he wants to look into that, he can, Kimberly.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. You know, obviously, there's some, you know, frustration here. But, I actually think, today, in terms of the comments by Rudy Giuliani that there's a real, like, a sense of, you know, calm and a practical approach. I mean, as a lawyer, former prosecutor, that's what you do. It's OK. No problem. Let's go over this. What's significant to you? And I think it makes the president look good to show that he has a reasonable person trying to, in fact, work and cooperate with the other side, because the president's position has been there's no collusion, and I did not obstruct, and I haven't done anything wrong. I'm frustrated by this. OK. Well, therefore, both sides are going to sit down and talk. And you can't just put the President of the United States in with unfettered questions, with no time frame, or no, you know, end game, et cetera. That would be ridiculous. No lawyer would do that. So, Rudy Giuliani has a lot of experience in this. He has a team that he feels comfortable working with. That is also very important. And, I think this is a good sign. I think it's actually is positive.
WATTERS: Do you think the president is confident enough in his own abilities, Dana, to think he could go toe-to-toe with Mueller for two to three to four hours and answer everything?
PERINO: Well, I mean, they're trying to get into his mind to see, like, what his intent was. I don't pretend to even be able to do that. But, I do think that the president does have -- should have some confidence in Rod Rosenstein, because what he was doing and saying and sticking up for the executive branch and the Justice Department. And he's a good public servant and the president chose a good person there, even though they might be frustrated that this investigation is going on. I think, obviously, Rod Rosenstein has the country's best interests in mind, and he has done well by the president, doing the initial firing in the first place with the memo that he wrote. So, I think, what's happening is -- our founding fathers knew about this a long time ago. We've got three branches of government, and they're equal branches and they're going to have to fight it out. And that's -- we just see this over and over again in every administration. It's actually quite comforting.
WATTERS: And they sure are fighting it out at every single level.
GUTFELD: Well, we know whose side the media is on. I think the public knows that this stinks. That this is ultimately going to be a huge waste of time. If you don't think the media has been involved in this. Stormy's lawyer has been on CNN 60 times, 60 times in three months. He's on the network more than James Earl Jones' voice. They should change the name of CNN to the Playboy Channel.
WILLIAMS: Before you go, let me just say one thing in terms ratcheting it up.
WATTERS: Yes.
WILLIAMS: I think now we come down to the question, if the president's lawyers say no to the possibility of testifying, then the subpoena comes, and then you get to the point of it goes to the Supreme Court, or the president pleading the fifth. And if that's the case we are in, Greg, explosive territory.
GUTFELD: You hope. You hope. You can still dream. You want the president to be impeached.
WATTERS: All right. And Rudy Giuliani is going to discuss all of this tonight on Hannity, 9 PM Eastern. Don't miss that. Ahead, many Democrats want her to step aside, but Nancy Pelosi has decided to snub them and gift Republicans instead, right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GUILFOYLE: Top house Democrat, Nancy Pelosi, appears to be giving Republicans a gift ahead of the midterm elections. The polarizing minority leaders saying, quote, we will win. I will run for speaker and I feel confident about it, and my members do too. Not all Democrats are agreeing with Pelosi. Some are saying she should step aside in favor of new party leadership. So, that is the question. Greg, Nancy Pelosi has really been such a huge presence and force in the Democratic Party for so many years. She's one of their top, top, if not number one, you know, fund-raisers, bringing donors together, party message, party direction, party leaders, people that are put in power or candidates that are favored. I mean, to be honest, she's quite formidable in terms of what she's done in the past. Now, it seems that people are wanting to go in a different directions. A lot of them candidates going to run. What do you think is going to happen here?
GUTFELD: So, what you're saying is she's incompetent.
(LAUGHTER)
GUTFELD: Look, 2020 should be the year of the woman. You know. Pelosi should be speaker. Hillary must run again. Debbie Wasserman Schultz should be secretary of state, though secretary sounds kind of sexist. But I think this is actually more proof that there's absolutely no new thinking in the Democratic Party. The ghosts of failure past still haunt their party because they don't have -- every time Tom Perez -- is that his name?
PERINO: Yeah.
GUTFELD: Opens his mouth, a hundred Democrats leaves the party. They become independent, and the reason why -- you might be right. She might be the only effective person in that party right now that is left in tatters after Obama and Hillary. No one has a plan -- the reason why they're doing so poorly with Trump is no one has a plan for immigration, to counter any of what he's done with North Korea or ISIS. How can they prove that they can do better in any of these arenas without a plan? There only plan is to go after the guy. The only plan they have is to wish Karl Marx a happy birthday.
GUILFOYLE: So, Dana, it's pretty interesting, because, you know, there's plenty of Democrats that feel the -- very bullish about the midterm elections, that they might have a good chance there. So, she's saying, listen, we're going to try to live without vote for Nancy Pelosi as a matter of survival, right, because--
(CROSSTALK) PERINO: One thing it's interesting -- where she gave this little talk I think is important. It would have been just a local story, but now because everything is national, it becomes a national story. She was in Congressman Seth Moulton's backyard. He has been one of the guys that wanted to challenge her. So, she's there in his local media and pushing back on that. But, it does become this lighting rod. Just like yesterday in the West Virginia debate that Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum hosted.
GUTFELD: Great job, by the way.
PERINO: They've ask -- Bret Baier said how many of you would vote for Mitch McConnell to be majority leader? They've all refused to raise their hands. So, going after the establishment incumbent is always going to play, but it only gets you so far. The Democrats have got to come up with some sort of proactive economic agenda, but I also think that Republicans are spending way too much time on defense and not thinking about a couple of things that are really on the minds of Americans. Health care, in particular, is still the number one issue in the minds of the voters, and there's no one talking about that right now.
GUILFOYLE: OK. All right. So, Jesse, you know, the Republicans, the GOP are probably -- OK, you know, rubbing their little hands together.
WATTERS: Right, yes. I mean, she's a great fund-raiser for Democrats, and even a better fund raiser for Republicans.
GUILFOYLE: Indeed.
WATTERS: She's toxic nationally. She's the queen of the swamp. But, listen, having her be--
GUILFOYLE: The swamp is bipartisan now.
WATTERS: Listen, having her with a gavel is terrifying. Think about it. The whole agenda grinds to a halt. She controls the purse strings. I mean, you get no wall, probably not even any repairs on the wall. She controls the oversight, the investigations, there's going to be hearings galore. So, it's a total nightmare. But this is not your typical Republican president, because he's probably going to want to work with Nancy if she's the house speaker. He'll wheel and deal with crying Chuck, and that's going to make a lot of people angry on the right. You could get good things done, you can get bad things done, who knows what's going to happen. But, I don't think it's a done deal that the Democrats take the house, and here's why. They have the coalition in place, but I don't think the coalition is solidified. I think millennial support for Democrats is down ten points over the last year or so. Blacks don't usually turn out as much in the midterm elections. I think single white women, college educated, they're really going to turn out. I think Hispanics are going to turn out.
But they're broke, the DNC has about $6 million cash on hand, $4 million in debt. The RNC has $40 million cash on hand. So, there's a lot of wild cards, Mueller, North Korea, who knows what's going to happen? But if you get Republican candidates that support the Trump agenda but are still kind of independent of Trump and will dismiss his style if it doesn't play in the district, I think they can do OK.
GUILFOYLE: All right. So, Juan, tell us everything about the inside workings of the Democratic Party--
WILLIAMS: No -- I tell you what struck me about the stories was that Nancy Pelosi, in defending her leadership, said she doesn't want to leave because that would mean that there would be five white guys left at the table. She's talking about McConnell.
WATTERS: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: She's talking about Ryan and the president. And that crew is not going to happen.
PERINO: No, but she's talking about the Democrats too.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, that the leadership--
PERINO: Right. But she said it would be Hoyer, Crowley, or Ryan, all white guys.
WILLIAMS: No. That if they replace her. But, at the moment, you know, Hoyer's there at the table, Hoyer and her, McConnell and others. So, that was her -- I think, the strongest thing she came out was saying you need a woman or someone who's not a white male at the table. But--
GUTFELD: Because white male we're still evil, just so everybody knows. Still evil.
WILLIAMS: Evil. I think that plays--
(CROSSTALK)
GUTFELD: No, you brought it up. White men are bad.
WILLIAMS: Yeah. Oh, that's right. I can see that they're really having trouble.
GUTFELD: No, she's saying it.
WILLIAMS: But I think what you have to understand is that if you ask Democrats about Pelosi, they're quite aware that Republicans relish the idea, because if you go back to Pennsylvania 18, Connor Lamb victory in the district that was won handily by President Trump. He dis-associate, he said I will not vote for Nancy Pelosi for speaker. He won. The question going forward, how do Democrats handle this? Well, two-thirds of Democrats in polls like Nancy Pelosi. Just like -- I think it's more than two-thirds of Republicans loathed Nancy Pelosi. So, the question is, how do you deal with this? And, at the moment--
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: -- to Paul Ryan, because I think congress is not popular. Paul Ryan left.
WATTERS: He's still there. A lot of people wanted him to step down.
PERINO: In Jersey, this weekend, there was local political ad I was watching during 60 Minutes, and they're all going after Paul Ryan, as if they forgot that he actually--
GUTFELD: Let's not forget, you know, Juan just reminded me when she made that comment about white males. There's still dripping with identity politics, which they don't see people. They do not see individuals. They just see groups. And as long as they are part of that mind-set, they are going to lose, and I hope they lose big, because it's time to favor the individual over the group.
WILLIAMS: You should say that to President Trump when he's playing white identity politics. I would love to hear--
GUTFELD: I don't believe he does. Manufacture proof.
GUILFOYLE: Another politically correct makeover for the Boy Scouts and we've got lots to say about it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PERINO: The Boy Scouts caused a storm of controversy last year when it announced it would allow girls to join the ranks. Now, another big change, a more gender-neutral name, they're dropping the boy part of the tittle of the flagship program for the 11 and 17-year-old. It will simply be called Scouts BSA beginning next year. The parent organization will still remain the Boy Scouts of America. So, they didn't quite go all the way there, Greg. They're like taking a little setback. Do you think this is them trying to get ahead of what's going to happen in the future?
GUTFELD: Well, I believe they have 3,000 girls, right? That are joining Boy Scouts. So, this is the wave of the future where a massive entity has to change because of a small percentage. We're seeing this in our culture everywhere.
But, what's good for the boys is going to be, I think, consequential to the girls, and I think, primarily, in women's sports, because I think, you know, if you look at -- if you can decide who you are by how you identify as opposed to your biological status, which is happening now, women in sports, as they become more hormonally closer to the masculine makeup of a man, do we just get rid of distinctions completely?
Like, it's going to be hard for women to compete against transgendered individuals. And that's where I think this kind of like is going. And, what other distinctions can you blur? For example, why does it have to be boys and girls? Why can't men and women joined the scouts? Isn't that age discrimination? Can a 53-year-old man who identifies as a 16-year-old girl join the scouts or the Girl Scouts?
PERINO: Jesse, would you like us to get back to you on that?
GUTFELD: There is actually a guy --
WATTERS: Yes -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) already.
GUTFELD: -- who identifies as that. So you think it's absurd. It's not.
PERINO: It does sound absurd, but I guess a lot -- there is a lot of absurdity happening.
GUTFELD: Thank you.
PERINO: Juan, I wanted to ask you, especially when it comes to boys' education, have we taken so much away from boys that this seems unnecessary?
WILLIAMS: What do you mean?
PERINO: Well, I think -- I feel like there's so much attention on -- and I'm for it. My mentoring program, all that, for young women and for girls and for building their confidence. But has it come at the expense of attention for boys?
WILLIAMS: This is really interesting, because I think oftentimes these days, boys are without fathers. We see an increase in terms of fatherless children. And it's heavily in the black community, heavily Hispanic community but it's also now, I think, more than a third of white children.
So when you asked me that question, it does touch a nerve, because I think you need role models, and you need a sense of an older male talking to a younger male about behavior and standards and how you deal with women, for example.
But you know, actually, when I heard the story, I was concerned more about, you know, my granddaughters, or girls losing their space. Because I know, like, for example, I went to an all-male college. We had an all-female college next door. This is Haverford and Bryn Mawr. And Haverford went coed subsequently. No problem. Bryn Mawr, though, never went coed. And you noticed the seven sisters, they don't go coed. It's all the boys' schools that went coed.
And I think it -- you ask why they don't go coed, because girls have their space. They don't have to always be dealing with men in a male-dominated environment. We live in a male-dominated culture.
So here's an opportunity for women to talk about sexual harassment. How do you get -- how do you make progress in the workplace? How do you get -- how do you deal with your own physical self as a woman without having men in your presence all the time?
PERINO: I might have gotten too deep on this. Is it just a name change, Jesse, or is this a signal of something else?
WATTERS: I don't know. I'm worried about the cookies, Dana.
PERINO: Yes.
WATTERS: Do the cookies survive this merger? That's something that's really on the top of my mind.
GUILFOYLE: Probably is, right?
WATTERS: We're going to do some research on that, maybe have an update tomorrow.
PERINO: "Kimberly's Food Court."
WATTERS: In the "OMT." I think, to Greg's point, maybe the NBA should get ahead of things. We merge the WNBA with the NBA. You know, you don't want any discrimination there.
And I agree with Juan. Listen, Girls need their space. Boys need their space. Have a mixer. You know, you have the Boy Scouts; you have the Girl Scouts. If they want to do stuff together, that's fine.
When we were researching this, it didn't seem like a lot of people on the girls' side or the boys' side were that thrilled about it. I don't even know why this is happening.
PERINO: Because the Girl Scouts were like, "Well, wait, what are you doing here? What are you doing here?"
WATTERS: "We don't want to hang with you gross boys."
GUILFOYLE: Exactly. I mean, people have to be able to assimilate, to want to have to go to their groups and things like that. I remember I was in law school. I was, like, in the Latin Spice Club, and then I was in the women's, the Irish. But we'd have mixers. Right?
WATTERS: Yes.
GUILFOYLE: So sometimes, you want to just hang out. That's fine. Dana and I were both Campfire Girls. Bluebirds, in fact.
PERINO: Bluebirds.
GUTFELD: So was I.
PERINO: The Bluebird Pledge.
WATTERS: Do you guys know how to build a campfire? Did you remember that?
GUILFOYLE: Yes. You go out on sleepovers, and you learn how to do that. And arts and crafts.
WATTERS: I doubt you two could build a campfire in the wilderness right now.
GUILFOYLE: OK.
PERINO: Challenge accepted. Challenge accepted.
WATTERS: OK.
PERINO: We'll be going out to the --
GUTFELD: She grew up on a -- she grew up on a ranch, Jesse.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, and I was on a farm every summer in Ireland. So let me tell you something. I think you might be the odd one out there.
WATTERS: Campfire Building Off.
PERINO: Fine, all right.
WILLIAMS: I think girls now can be equal scouts. That's different.
WATTERS: It is.
PERINO: That's right. And they didn't change the name of the Eagle. All right. Just kidding.
Ahead, a case for legalizing a highly illegal drug with medical benefits, perhaps greater than marijuana. Right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GUTFELD: According to a new study, soldiers with PTSD using the illegal drug known as MDMA or ecstasy cured the conditions within weeks. This is key. Because I don't think I've ever seen the word "cured" in a highfalutin medical journal. Usually, it's "significantly improves," but never "cures."
Now the study was small, 26 patients, but the message is big. When a substance has a real affect, meaning it changes you, it also frightens people. Drugs like ecstasy are illegal because they work, and when things work, they are hijacked for other purposes -- to have fun, for example. And then people die from taking too much. And that's when the law breaks in and bans it.
This has happened to many substances that could have helped millions of people. Just decades ago, MDMA showed real promise in psychotherapy. Then it got banned. But times are changing. We realize it's absurd to punish the substance and the patient because the substance has potential for abuse. Instead, let scientists test them on various hard-to-treat illnesses.
You want a crazy example? Try botulinum toxin. It's a substance that's deadly. Yet instead of reporting its lethality, newscasters shoot it into their faces, because it reduces wrinkles when used wisely. It's poison!
Other drugs, like Special K, are now being tested on depression. Pot is also being tried on PTSD, as well.
So with scientific study comes progress and relief. So why not send a drug down that path instead of leaving it on the street?
All right. You know what I think is smart, Dana? If you look at a lot of these studies, it's the choice of the patient. If you use veterans, people have an innate sense, Democrats and Republicans, that we owe it to them.
PERINO: That's what I think.
GUTFELD: So it's a great strategy. Like, if you just did -- this is a study of depressed I.T. workers, no one's -- people are going to go, "That's too bad."
PERINO: No, because also, we've -- we have thankfully learned enough about PTSD.
WATTERS: Your computer's never getting fixed.
GUTFELD: Yes, I know. Sorry, I.T. workers.
PERINO: I think we've learned enough about PTSD to learn understand how damaging it is to somebody. The terror. Especially also the suicides.
GUTFELD: Yes.
PERINO: OK, so yes, I agree with this.
One thing I think that could happen because of this study and the concern about it being misused and abused, is the possibility of new delivery devices. So for example --
GUTFELD: Right, yes.
PERINO: -- if you find out that it's something that works for a patient with PTSD, a veteran, is there something like an implant?
GUTFELD: Yes.
PERINO: Something where the doctor is in charge of it and it's not something that's like handing pills out on the street.
GUTFELD: Right.
PERINO: And there's a lot of new innovations like that happening.
And Scott Gottlieb, who is the FDA commissioner under President Trump, he's really forward thinking in this regard. So it's possible that something could actually happen.
GUTFELD: I hope so.
Juan, they're looking at all sorts of drugs that we've always been taught, in the '70s, like me, when we used to watch "Dragnet." Remember, every drug was bad? Acid. Every -- but now they're all -- they're looking at these things, because they see they have potential to -- for many illnesses.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean, marijuana is, like, the cutting edge of this. And again, it's older people who find it's good for pain relief, relaxation.
GUTFELD: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And I think it's lots of people who are voters. And so I think you're seeing the country change on marijuana in a radical way in our lifetime.
GUILFOYLE: While they're voting?
WILLIAMS: I don't know. I don't know.
WATTERS: That explains a lot.
WILLIAMS: Yes, it explains November 2016.
GUTFELD: That explains why people are smoking more pot.
WILLIAMS: I agree. But you know what struck me was I thought when I first read this, I think, "Oh, boy, this is not -- you know what? This is some big pharmaceutical company."
PERINO: No.
WILLIAMS: And I get through the story, and it says no, not at all. This is the Association for Psychedelic Studies.
GUTFELD: Right.
WILLIAMS: Which was created in 1986 after MDMA, or Ecstasy, had been banned.
GUTFELD: Exactly.
WILLIAMS: So I don't know. So then I thought, so are -- were these people supporters of Ecstasy? Is that why they were created?
GUTFELD: I think that there was a group of psychotherapists who were really, really angry when they were -- a valuable tool was taken for them. And I can't remember the guy who's in charge, Doobrin [SIC], I think? Or Doblin? I can't think of the guy's name. But he's been pioneering all of this. And -- but that's how it happened. They were ticked off at the government, stepped in. And --
WILLIAMS: But you know, it's interesting to me that, you know, previously most conservatives would have said, "Oh, no."
GUTFELD: Absolutely.
WILLIAMS: "Oh, no, no, no." But now, given the veterans' need.
GUTFELD: Right. That's --
WILLIAMS: And because it's a crisis for the veterans, all of a sudden the conservatives are like, "Oh, yes, let's try it."
GUTFELD: I think that's -- that was the key, I think, Kimberly. What do you think?
GUILFOYLE: I think that, you know, this is part of the overall, you know, complex problem that we have facing veterans, those that are coming home. So many more of them surviving injuries --
GUTFELD: Right.
GUILFOYLE: -- that otherwise would have been life-threatening or ending. TBI, traumatic brain injury, the depression, anxiety, the homelessness. The things that come with serving. Being away, families broken up. It's very difficult.
But I think there is definitely a genuine interest in trying to do the best for our men and women that serve. And part of that would be allowing them, maybe, exposure to some other different types of remedies or drugs for therapies that might be beneficial to them. So many of them can seek, you know, the help of the V.A. as a, you know, a last resort. I think that's why we really need to do something about it. And putting somebody very strong and great there to do a wonderful job for the veterans and really help them.
GUTFELD: You know, Jesse, did you ever think you'd be doing a pro-Ecstasy segment on FOX News?
WATTERS: No. My mind is spinning right now, and I haven't taken any Ecstasy.
LSD was used in the '40s, and the '50s, and the '60s in small clinical trials to treat alcoholism and PTSD and depression. And then it was banned, because people would abuse it. And now it's getting a second look because of this.
The brain scanning imagery is so much more detailed. You can see, if it's MDMA or a small dosage of LSD, what effect that has on the brain, and it gives the scientists and the medical professionals a more accurate read on what it's actually accomplishing.
I think every option should be on the table. If it's a therapy dog, if it's psychotherapy, hyperbaric chambers, medical marijuana, MDMA. Let's get it all fixed. And something that's taboo shouldn't prevent doctors from trying to help.
WILLIAMS: Can I be that conservative on this, though? I just don't want - -
GUILFOYLE: This is getting weird.
WILLIAMS: I know, but I just don't want -- Ecstasy can kill young people. They go to these parties, these raves.
WATTERS: Right. But it's small dose in a clinical trial.
WILLIAMS: Be careful, folks.
GUILFOYLE: Well, no, that's good. That's important. You don't want people to get the wrong idea about it. But it just goes to show you, once again, it's the men and women that served, that are the bravest to try other remedies and treatments that are going to help other people. Right?
GUTFELD: Exactly.
GUILFOYLE: What would you do for your family member? That's the point. You know?
GUTFELD: Exactly.
All right. Does this new campaign ad cross the line? We debate next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GUTFELD: Good bump song.
GUILFOYLE: You like it?
WILLIAMS: A Georgia gubernatorial candidate's campaign ad is causing an uproar. Is it funny or does it cross the line? We're going to let you decide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KEMP (R), GEORGIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Brian Kemp. This is Jake, a young man interested in one of my daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
KEMP: Jake asked why I was running for governor. I said one --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cap government spending.
KEMP: Two --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a chainsaw to regulations.
KEMP: Three --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Make Georgia No. 1 for small business.
KEMP: And two things if you're going to to date one of my daughters?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Respect.
KEMP: And?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A healthy appreciation for the Second Amendment, sir.
KEMP: We're going to get along just fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Well, well, well. So you know, I'm the one here who is for gun control, so I'm going to stay out of this. I just want to know what you guys think. What do you think of this?
GUILFOYLE: Well, it was cute for a bit there, in terms of, you know, like having to talk and doing what you're for but then, you know, you shouldn't point a gun at anybody.
WATTERS: Jesse.
GUILFOYLE: Unless you're going to use it.
WATTERS: I thought it was funny. I respectfully disagree with Kimberly. Is that OK, Kimberly?
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
WATTERS: OK. I'm kidding.
He -- I don't think he really pointed it at the kid. It looks like it was more just resting on the lap in a way. I think everybody needs to lighten up. Maybe some people in New York are upset by it, but I think in Georgia that plays. I don't think it's going to backfire.
GUTFELD: Oh!
WILLIAMS: Backfire.
Dana.
PERINO: Yes, like, so where you stand is where you sit. So people that support the Second Amendment that live in Georgia, they get to decide if this is OK or not. And I'm assuming that they're probably going to be like, "Oh," like what Jesse was saying, "lighten up."
But I also think that he -- the ad still would have worked had he not done the last movement. Right?
GUILFOYLE: Right.
PERINO: Just having it there, not cocked, would be -- it would have worked.
WILLIAMS: Yes, because if that gun's loaded -- hmm.
Greg.
GUTFELD: Yes. I think, though, that doing that last move was kind of the punch line.
I asked during the break, I go, "I can't tell if he was pointing it or not. If it was like a prop. I couldn't see."
GUILFOYLE: Well, I couldn't see it very well, yes.
GUTFELD: I will say that this reminds me a bit of the prom dress story we did yesterday. Outrage generated by social media, because it's so easy.
The barrier to entry these days, registering outrage, is just a keystroke. So there's a lot of people that can talk about how bad this is. And then they just move on.
Meanwhile Joy Reid's paper trail is way worse than this. But I wonder how many people upset by this commercial and upset by the prom dress actually care about MSNBC protecting Joy Reid? Do you see my point? That the paper trail is, you know, as large as the -- what Israel found in Iran.
PERINO: And also there was no hacking.
GUTFELD: Yes, there was no hacking. That's the big point. There was no hacking.
WILLIAMS: So what interests me here is that this is not a singular event. I don't know if you remember, but Joe the Plumber had an ad like this.
GUTFELD: Yes.
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Rick Santorum has had ads like this.
GUILFOYLE: And there's that tweet with the prom night.
PERINO: There's always something.
WILLIAMS: So his way, you know -- his way, Brian Kemp, who is running for governor in Georgia. He's currently Georgia's secretary of state. Says when people complained about it, "Hey, I'm conservative. Get over it, folks."
But I thought, boy, I don't -- I'm not thinking that a lot of conservatives -- and gun owners are going to take to this. In fact, we've heard -- or he's heard from gun owners who object.
GUTFELD: What's the liberal counterpart commercial? Like, "Check out my vegan meal"?
PERINO: We should keep an eye on this Georgia gubernatorial race. There are some pretty interesting things happening now. I'll leave that as a tease.
GUILFOYLE: And also, like, Georgia, when you think about it, have a lot of the families there get weapons at an early age. They go hunting or they go shooting. It's part of the culture. This plays for a local, you know, audience.
WILLIAMS: But don't you think it's a little close to Parkland? I don't know.
Anyway, "One More Thing" up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WATTERS: Time now for "One More Thing" -- Dana.
PERINO: OK. I'll try to up my game today, Jesse, because I know I kind of disappointed you yesterday. If you're a fan of the WWE, you might know who this is. Take a look. Do we have it?
That is Glenn "Kane" Jacobs. It appears that man is now the GOP nominee for mayor in Knox County, Tennessee. He's seven feet tall, OK?
GUTFELD: Is he?
PERINO: Three-hundred-pound former wrestler. He clinched the primary election by just 17 votes. He wants lower taxes, more education, job creation, infrastructure. I mean, this guy actually says, "I'm going to fix the potholes," and if you look at him, you're going to believe him.
On his bio at the WWE, it says he' a monstrous abomination that seems to have been extracted directly from your childhood nightmares. That could be for his political opponents. Anyway, so he's running for mayor. Looks likely it's going to be a good race.
WATTERS: Much better than yesterday.
PERINO: Thank you.
WATTERS: Well done, Dana.
I forget if it was yesterday, we talked about the scariest thing or the most dangerous thing we've ever done. I forget who it was at the table. Someone said they got stuck on a roller coaster. Well, this actually just happened in Japan, Universal Studios. They were stuck on a rollercoaster upside down.
PERINO: Oh, my God.
WATTERS: They were suspended for two hours.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, that is just --
WATTERS: Something was wrong with the sensor. And they were rescued eventually. For two hours, they were suspended in the air.
GUILFOYLE: What happens when all the blood goes to your head?
GUTFELD: You know where I would be? I would be right below them catching the wallets and car keys.
GUILFOYLE: That is, like, really scary.
WATTERS: What a scavenger.
PERINO: Now I can't go on rollercoasters.
GUILFOYLE: I don't like rollercoasters.
WILLIAMS: Yes, me too.
WATTERS: That's the reason why. Greg.
GUTFELD: They have their ups and downs, Kimberly.
WATTERS: Well done.
GUTFELD: All right. I'm just going to plug my podcast, which is with Jacob Sullum. He's a great writer from "Reason" magazine. We talk about Ecstasy, LSD, PTSD, the facts and fallacies of opioids. Check it out: FOXNewsPodcasts.com.
WATTERS: Going through a drug phase, aren't you?
GUTFELD: Yes, you know what? I think it's important, Jesse.
If you'd like to meet me after the show, I'll show you why.
WATTERS: OK, we'll discuss that later.
PERINO: Don't worry, Mom. He won't do it.
WILLIAMS: Jesse.
WATTERS: Yes. Juan will not be staying home. Go ahead, Juan.
WILLIAMS: OK. So nor the good news part of our show.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, I like this.
WILLIAMS: The two black men who were arrested for hanging out in Starbucks while waiting for a friend but didn't order anything, they've received a settlement from the city of Philadelphia. So here's something to make you smile about this. They settled for $1 each and the promise that the city will put $200,000 into helping young people learn how to start their own business. Great. Rashon Nelson and Dante Robinson will get any of the money from the grant.
Philadelphia Mayor Jim Kenney says he's pleased to make the deal and have something good come out of what was a messy situation.
PERINO: Very cool.
WATTERS: Remember when Kramer settled for free coffee for the rest of his life? They really left that on the table.
GUTFELD: That's what Jesse --
WATTERS: That's what I would have done. Free coffee for the rest of my life.
GUILFOYLE: Like, free salami sandwiches for the rest of my life.
WATTERS: All right. Kimberly, go ahead.
GUILFOYLE: All right. Fantastic.
Well, this is a wonderful story about a young female entrepreneur. Her name is Jessica Cervantes. And she is taking on the world one cupcake at a time. She immigrated to the United States from Cuba. And she was just 16 when she beat out 25,000 other business students to launch her own business, PopsyCakes. And it's the world's first cupcake on a pretzel.
But the best part it's giving back, because it has partnerships with Jenny McCarthy's foundation, Generation Rescue, support to families of children on the autism spectrum; Alex's Lemonade Stand, which is dedicated to fundraising for cancer research.
So thank you guys for sending this over. We had a little surprise for you guys. We passed them around. One made each in your likeness.
WATTERS: There's Greg.
There you go. There's me.
GUILFOYLE: Thank you to Quarnette (ph) for helping with that.
WATTERS: This is -- this is about ten years ago.
GUILFOYLE: So cute, so cute.
WATTERS: Are these Atkins friend, Greg, or no?
GUTFELD: No, they're not. So I'll have to donate mine to a --
WATTERS: Here you go. Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." "Special Report" up next. Bret Baier.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: We never get any food down here. Thanks, Jesse.
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