Giuliani, Perry debate the Republican delegate game
Former New York City mayor and the former governor of Texas shares their thoughts on the state of the 2016 race on 'Hannity'
This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," April 12, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: And welcome to "Hannity." And tonight, we're just one week away from the New York primaries. On the Republican side, 95 delegates are at stake. And tonight, at the "Hannity" big board with a look at some brand- new polls and the GOP delegate count is our very own "Fox & Friends" Heather Nauert -- Heather.
HEATHER NAUERT, "FOX & FRIENDS": Hi.
HANNITY: Big polls coming out today.
HANNITY: We certainly do. Hi, there, Sean. Hi there to all of you.
Republican front-runner Donald Trump leading the polls in his home state of New York. According to a brand-new Quinnipiac poll out of the Empire State, Trump is on top with 55 percent, Girlfriend John Kasich second with 20 percent, and Senator Ted Cruz follows in third with 19 percent.
Now, in a New York 1 Baruch College poll, Trump has an even bigger lead with 60 percent, and then it's Kasich in second with 17 percent and Cruz in third with 14 percent.
Sean, Trump has been campaigning hard in his home state, and if these poll numbers hold, it would mean that he would win potentially all of New York's 95 Republican delegates.
And we're also learning more about Senator Ted Cruz's strategy. According to new reports, his campaign is focusing heavily on California, yesterday, during a rally in that state, Cruz telling supporters that voters in California will end up deciding the Republican nominee, both New York and California delegate-rich states, and that would make a big difference in the overall delegate count.
Here is where that stands right now, Trump leading with 755 delegates. Cruz has been making gains, though, recently. He sits at 545. Kasich has 143 delegates.
That New York primary a week from today, and we will watch all of those developments closely. Sean, back to you.
HANNITY: All right, Heather, thanks so much.
NAUERT: Thanks.
HANNITY: And here now with reaction, former New York City mayor and prosecutor in his own right, Rudy Giuliani. Mr. Mayor, how are you?
RUDY GIULIANI, R-FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: How are you, Sean? Good to see you.
HANNITY: All right, so it's a close delegate count. You've got 755 to 545.
GIULIANI: Right.
HANNITY: But I would say advantage Trump in New York, obviously, based on those polls.
GIULIANI: Yes, those polls are I think pretty solid, too. I think 55 is a bottom number. Could be higher than that.
HANNITY: So you think he gets all congressional districts and probably get most of the 95, if not all?
GIULIANI: Yes. I think he gets most of the 95, if not all of them. That gives him a nice -- a nice cushion.
HANNITY: So then he's up 300 delegates, and then Pennsylvania's up by a big margin. He's up in Maryland by a big margin. Delaware, Connecticut, Rhode Island -- where do they go?
GIULIANI: Should be good states for him.
HANNITY: Yes.
GIULIANI: I would say good states for him, not such good states for Cruz. And that's why I think Cruz is concentrating on California, and Trump is going to have to make a big effort in California. There's no reason why Trump couldn't be a good candidate in California. The California Republican Party's not too different than the New York Republican Party.
HANNITY: Yes.
GIULIANI: And maybe a little more conservative, but I think Trump can make a good showing in California.
HANNITY: Do you see -- what if he falls short of 1,237? How does he get there?
GIULIANI: Then I think it depends on how short he is of 1,237. If he's a few votes short of 1,237, he probably can pick up the delegates to go over the top.
HANNITY: Define "a few" because "a few" means 100? Does it mean 50?
GIULIANI: 20, 30.
HANNITY: 20, 30.
GIULIANI: Yes.
HANNITY: Otherwise, it's a contested convention. Don't you think -- I think Paul Ryan said earlier today that this should not -- that he's not going to run in this race, that we shouldn't be talking about anybody other than people that have run in the race. Do you agree with that?
GIULIANI: I agree with that. I agree that these people have worked, you know, for a year at it. They've laid out their program for the public. People have voted. They've got thousands of votes. So I think the pick has to be between them.
HANNITY: We're going to get into this battle of what happened in Colorado. Donald Trump said earlier tonight that the GOP should be -- the RNC should be ashamed of themselves on the process. Now, the people in Colorado didn't vote, but everyone knew the rules going in. Ted Cruz outworked everybody in Colorado, got all the delegates available there.
GIULIANI: Yes. I mean, I think the way to look at it is, it makes one of the points that Trump has been trying to make, and actually that Cruz has been trying to make, that this is -- that this is an elite-dominated political party with a grass roots that wants to go the other way. And Colorado decided to go kind of a back-door way.
HANNITY: But when people like prominent Republicans, like Karl Rove says we need a fresh face, not somebody who's run, or John Boehner mentioned Paul Ryan specifically -- you can nominate anyone on the convention floor...
GIULIANI: Then why should we have primaries?
HANNITY: That's what I say.
GIULIANI: Ever.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: It should really be Cruz or Trump right now, right?
GIULIANI: Right. If you consider -- if you put Cruz and Trump together, they basically are the vast majority of the Republican Party that bothered to vote. And what did they say to us? They said to us...
HANNITY: No establishment.
GIULIANI: ... We don't want one of those insiders they're going to pull out of their hat.
HANNITY: Yes.
GIULIANI: And -- and...
HANNITY: Do you think they'll ever get along? Right now, it is as -- it's getting mean out there. Don't you think Republicans at the end of the -- this contest are going to have to unite? And I don't see that happening right now. I see a lot of antipathy, resentment.
GIULIANI: Well, I don't see it happening if they try to pull a rabbit out of a hat and...
HANNITY: Yes.
GIULIANI: ... you know, try to put somebody in who hasn't been in the race, hasn't been making the case, hasn't gone through everything they've gone through. If it comes down to a choice between Trump and Cruz, I think they can probably put it together...
HANNITY: You do?
GIULIANI: ... the two of them. Yes, I think they can.
HANNITY: You do?
GIULIANI: Yes, I do.
HANNITY: All right. You're on.
GIULIANI: Look at what Donald is saying...
HANNITY: I'm interviewing these guys, so I'm not sure I see the love in the room.
GIULIANI: No, look at what Donald's been saying about Marco Rubio.
HANNITY: Well, that's true.
GIULIANI: As opposed to what he was saying about him two months ago.
(LAUGHTER)
HANNITY: Yes. Good point. All right, Mr. Mayor, good to see you.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
HANNITY: Thank you.
And joining us now, former Texas governor and Ted Cruz supporter Rick Perry. Governor, how are you, sir?
RICK PERRY, R-FMR. TEXAS GOVERNOR: I'm great. And I do agree with America's mayor on that last statement.
HANNITY: You know, the funny thing is -- we were just talking before we came on. We both agreed you would have been a pretty good president.
(LAUGHTER)
PERRY: Well, Rudy would have made a pretty good candidate, too, back in the day, but that's not the way it turned out. So you know, that is that, and let's look towards the future here. And it's going to be between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. Listen, it's -- anything else is completely out of the realm of possibility, in my belief.
HANNITY: In my opinion, too. Then why are all these prominent Republican names that I just mentioned suggesting otherwise?
PERRY: Well, we got to have something to talk about. So I think that's what driving it, as much as anything, an interesting media story to pitch all these out here. But the fact is that you're going to have -- and I don't think that anybody's going to get to 1,237. I think we will go to a contested convention. And I don't have a problem with that. I mean, everybody knew what the rules were when they signed up on this. And I think as long as we follow the rules and they don't try to back-door somebody, then Donald Trump or Ted Cruz -- and I think...
HANNITY: But Governor, here's a little...
PERRY: ... California's going to be a really interesting place to see...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Here's a real big problem, though. The rules for 2016 haven't been written yet. They won't be written until just before the convention.
PERRY: Well, I don't think there's going to be a big rule changes. I think, you know, Reince Priebus would be making a huge mistake and I think the Rules Committee would be making a huge mistake if they go in there and try to make big changes. If they tweak them a little bit, maybe -- you know, probably live with that. But if they go in and make some big rule changes on rule 40, I think you got some -- I think you have some problems that could be very, very dangerous at the end of the day.
HANNITY: By the way, Mr. -- Rudy Giuliani is still here. He wants to weigh in and say hello to you. Is that OK?
(LAUGHTER)
GIULIANI: Hi, Rick. How are you doing?
PERRY: I'm fine, Mr. Mayor. Everything's good in Texas. We miss you.
GIULIANI: I miss you, too. I agree with you. I think if they make rules changes that are substantive, that substantially change the rules on which these men and women -- one woman, were running, it would be really, really unfair. And I also think we risk ruining our party, at least for this election.
PERRY: Yes.
HANNITY: Big time.
PERRY: I don't think that's going to happen. Listen, even if we go to a contested convention, which I do think we will go there and we're going to see these candidates working within the rule structure, and at the end of the day, whether it's Donald Trump or whether it's Ted Cruz -- and certainly, I hope it's Ted Cruz -- we'll come together and go forward to defeat Hillary Clinton.
I mean, that's -- you know, at the end of the day, we're throwing lot of elbows. There's a lot of things going on. You know, people have said this about New York, people have said this about Texas and -- we're Americans, and that's what's really important at the end of the day.
We're going to have a candidate that we can get behind, a nominee that's going to be clearly the conservative choice, and we put America back on track again.
HANNITY: Let me ask you...
PERRY: And I happen to think Ted Cruz is that person.
HANNITY: Let's say candidate A, candidate B -- candidate A goes into the convention with having won more states, millions more votes and hundreds of more delegates, but doesn't get the nomination.
Do you worry at that point -- and I'll ask both of you the question -- that the person that was bypassed because they didn't get to 1,237 and lose in a contested convention -- do you think their supporters would be, Governor Perry?
PERRY: Well, I think it's like if we go into overtime at a basketball game and your team was...
HANNITY: But they weren't tied.
PERRY: But the point is, let's play this out. I mean, you're wanting to call the game in the fourth quarter with two minutes to go in the game.
I mean, people understand rules. And I think just because you don't like the way the rules are turning out for you, for you to throw a fit and whine and to go on and on about it, is, you know, pretty immature, in my opinion. Let's play this out. Here's the rules. You knew what they were before you got in the thing.
HANNITY: Mayor?
PERRY: So let's play it out.
GIULIANI: I think Rick is correct. I think we should play it by the rules. I think if you get a candidate within 20 or 30 votes and they don't get it, then you got a chance of a really disgruntled group of people that you can't get together. You have a margin of -- a couple of hundred, that's it. That's it...
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: But Rudy, I think it's really important if you...
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: ... Rick is correct. If that happens, then I think everybody feels they were treated fairly, and whether the first or the second guy wins, we both have to -- I mean, I support Trump. My good friend Rick supports Cruz. But I support Cruz if Cruz is the nominee of the party.
HANNITY: Governor, last word.
PERRY: Well, and I think it's really important -- if you're that close, and you can't close the deal, shame on you.
HANNITY: All right. We'll leave it there. Guys, thank you both for being with us. Appreciate it.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
PERRY: Good to be with you.
HANNITY: We'll see you both soon.
Coming up next tonight on a busy news night on "Hannity"...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our Republican system is absolutely rigged! It's a phony deal!
SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald has been yelling and screaming, a lot of whining.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Donald Trump, Senator Ted Cruz battling for every GOP delegate. Trump's convention manager will join us coming up next.
Then, Laura Ingraham is here to weigh in on the battle for New York.
Plus, tonight...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, D-NEW YORK CITY: Sorry, Hillary. I was running on CP time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not -- I don't -- I don't like jokes like that (INAUDIBLE)
(LAUGHTER)
HILLARY CLINTON, D- PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Cautious politician time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Racially charged so-called joke everyone's talking about that Hillary Clinton and Comrade Mayor de Blasio of New York crossed the line. That and more straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity." It's now official, Senator Ted Cruz swept all 34 delegates in Colorado following a complex delegate selection procedure. In response, well, Donald Trump is slamming the GOP nominating process. Here's what he said earlier tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The system's rigged! And I'll tell you what. When you look at Colorado -- and people can say, Oh, well, that's the way the game's played -- look, they should have had an election. They didn't have an election.
That system is set up so that the crooked politicians can make sure they get somebody in that's not, you know, part of what we're doing. This is a movement, folks. I'm self-funding my campaign. They hate it. And I'll tell you why. The RNC, the Republican National Committee, they should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this kind of crap to happen!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Now, Senator Ted Cruz -- he responded to Trump's complaints. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald has been yelling and screaming, a lot of whining, I'm sure some cursing, and some late-night fevered tweeting, all the characteristics I would note, we would want of a commander-in-chief.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Now, yesterday, RNC chairman Reince Priebus attempted to ease tensions by tweeting, quote, "The rules were set last year. Nothing mysterious, nothing new. The rules have not changed. The rules are the same, nothing different."
Here now is the man that is tasked with securing Trump delegates. Donald Trump's convention manager, Paul Manafort, is with us. Do you really want to jump into this mess? Congratulations.
PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CONVENTION MANAGER: It may look like a mess, but I like the position we're in.
HANNITY: Yes. You were there in '76...
MANAFORT: I was.
HANNITY: ... at the contested convention. That was Ronald Reagan challenging a sitting president. It was a pretty amazing story, right?
MANAFORT: It was quite a story. And there was -- there's a lot of deja vu going on.
HANNITY: You feel it. All right, let's talk about Colorado, issue of contention. Is it rigged? Is it corrupt?
MANAFORT: The point that Donald Trump was making is that the process in Colorado was being abused. And you know, it's not that the rules themselves were unknown. It's the way the rules were applied, the way they -- and then number of instances where ballots were not allowed to be counted because the numbers were wrong and they were all wrong and only people that related to...
HANNITY: Is that the 378, 378, not 379?
MANAFORT: Yes. The thing is, if it was only in Colorado, then you'd say it was just, you know, just unorganized. But we're seeing the same mistakes in Colorado, in Missouri and in a couple of -- Louisiana. And so the mistakes are not really mistakes. It's a pattern.
HANNITY: A pattern of what?
MANAFORT: A pattern of, at the local levels, abusing the amateurness of the enthusiasm of Republicans who want to participate in the process and are being cut out by back room tactics that -- as the hallmark of the Cruz campaign.
I mean, he got caught with Carson in Iowa. He caught with Rubio in Florida. And he's going to get caught in all these places in...
HANNITY: So you think Ted Cruz is doing this. Do you have any evidence that he is?
MANAFORT: We are compiling evidence. We're going to be filing several credentials challenges. And -- you know, and, you know, whether we win on the challenges or not, the point is what's happening is -- if you go to these meetings and you're not a Cruz supporter, you don't want to be a Republican when you leave because (INAUDIBLE) so abused.
HANNITY: You know, I would like this. I'm a big believer states should be able to do what they choose. I don't -- but it is a national party, so I think there ought to be some basics. If you want to have a caucus, have a caucus. You want to have a primary, have a primary. If you want to have proportional distribution, have proportional distribution. If you want winner takes all, winner takes all.
But the idea that the people don't vote and participate troubles me. This has nothing to do with Colorado. Just in general, there's -- I think the people have to participate and that their will must be reflected in the end. Is that...
MANAFORT: And that's what Donald Trump is talking about. He's talked about the rigged economy. He's talked about the rigged banking system, and now he's talking about the rigged political system. And what he's saying is that through his candidacy, he's going to try and bring clarity to all of this, get rid of the unfairness of it, and in politics, and his position is not much different than yours.
We're playing by the rules, and we're winning by the rules. And you know, one of the distortions that the Cruz campaign is trying to put out there is that he's winning delegates. No, he's not winning delegates. He's winning bodies in some of these place with some of these factors (ph).
HANNITY: He's also, apparently -- according to reports, he's working on Trump delegates for a second ballot, that they would switch to him. Is he...
(CROSSTALK)
MANAFORT: That's what I mean. He's not turning any Trump delegates who are delegates. What he's trying to do is put Cruz people in place of elected -- of Trump delegates' spots that have been mandated by the elections.
And so the reality is, Colorado was a difficult, unique situation. But in places like Louisiana, we're going to have the Trump vote cast as the Trump vote. Some of that vote is going to be actually people who support Donald Trump. It should all be, but it's not going to be. Some of it are going to be people who support Cruz who are going to have to vote for Trump.
Now, mind you, this is a round world, and there's going to be some places where, you know, we're going to have the same type of thing, and I'll call attention to Nevada in about...
HANNITY: But what about 50-some-odd delegates from Pennsylvania unbound?
MANAFORT: Those are fair game for everybody, and everybody's going to be working on them. But the point I guess that I want to stress is the whole premise of the Cruz campaign of a second ballot misses the point. There's not going to be a second ballot.
HANNITY: Right now, Donald Trump would need 61 percent of delegates to win the nomination. If it's needed in terms of remaining bound delegates, it's 66 percent. For Ted Cruz, it's 97 percent of bound delegates remaining, not unbound. For Kasich, it's 150 percent.
Right now, it's 755 to 545, 210, but you do have New York coming up. I would assume you expect most of the delegates in New York.
MANAFORT: Not only in New York, but the whole Northeast. I mean, we're out of Cruz-land. Cruz is not even going to be finishing second for the next couple of weeks. He's going to be distant thirds in a lot of places.
HANNITY: So in other words, you think Trump wins New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland?
MANAFORT: I think we're doing very well in all those places. All the polls show us leading, and we're just starting to put our campaigns together.
HANNITY: It seems like the Cruz campaign is spending a lot of time, energy, focus in districts in California, especially Los Angeles, outside if Los Angeles County. Kasich seems to be targeting the more northern part of the state, San Francisco, et cetera. Is it going to come down to June 7th?
MANAFORT: Well, June 7th is something that's going to put us over, but we're not going to have to win overwhelmingly on June 7th. We're going to have...
HANNITY: You really...
MANAFORT: I think -- I think...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Walk me through your math, then.
MANAFORT: Well, we're going to have a ground game in California where we're going to be focusing on the congressional districts, as well. We announced our state chairman today. We've been putting people on the ground. California is going to be a battleground.
HANNITY: So you think you can get to 1,237 even before June 7th.
MANAFORT: No, I think we need June 7th. But I think -- I think before June 7th, it's going to be apparent that Donald Trump...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Donald Regan? Is that what you were going to say?
(LAUGHTER)
MANAFORT: There's a lot of similarity to 1980 race with Reagan and Trump. And a lot of the criticisms of Reagan in 1980 are the same ones being...
HANNITY: OK, last question. Walk me through your math.
MANAFORT: I'm not going to walk you through the math.
HANNITY: You don't want to walk me through the math?
MANAFORT: I'm not going to do that yet.
HANNITY: Oh.
MANAFORT: But I'm going to...
HANNITY: The people want to hear you.
MANAFORT: Well, just keep watching because it's going to become very apparent. April is going to be a very bad month for Ted Cruz. I mean, he'll probably finish third in delegates in April, compared to...
HANNITY: By the end of April, what do you think you'll be at?
MANAFORT: We'll be on our way.
(LAUGHTER)
HANNITY: You sound almost like a politician, but -- anyway, Paul, congratulations on your position. We appreciate you being on the program. We're going to be with Trump tomorrow for the hour. We had Kasich Monday. We have Cruz on Friday.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... tomorrow.
MANAFORT: No, he's just finishing up a rally with 25,000 people, I think.
HANNITY: A lot of people.
MANAFORT: Yes.
HANNITY: All right, and coming up next tonight, right here on "Hannity"...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: Sorry, Hillary. I was running on CP time.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not -- I don't -- I don't like jokes like that (INAUDIBLE)
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: Cautious politician time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: All right, Hillary Clinton and Comrade de Blasio, the mayor of New York, taking heat for that racially charged, quote, "joke." Did they cross a line? What if a Republican said it? Laura Ingraham is here to weigh in on the battle for New York.
That and more on this busy news night tonight right here on "Hannity."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity." So the New York primary is only a week away from tonight, and the fight for each and every delegate -- that's heating up. Joining us now to weigh in on the state of the race, editor- in-chief of Lifezette.com, nationally syndicated radio host, and of course, Fox News contributor Laura Ingraham. How are you?
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Sean. Good to see you.
HANNITY: All right, I don't think I've seen such intense passion, especially on social media between Cruz supporters versus Trump supporters. This whole issue in Colorado has brought it to a new level, if you will. What's your take on it?
INGRAHAM: I think that folks have to calm down, and I think they have to...
HANNITY: Have to breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth?
INGRAHAM: Yes. Exactly. (INAUDIBLE) just do some Zen exercises. Calm down.
HANNITY: Yes.
INGRAHAM: And start thinking about, Sean, why are we here? What do we want to accomplish? Do we want to ensure that we preserve a semblance of constitutionality on our Supreme Court? Do we want to try to get this debt under control so we don't leave it to the kids to have to handle?
If we have a series of goals that I think most of us agree on, what is the best way to reach those goals? Surely, we know the best way to get to that place, which means we cannot allow Hillary to be president of the United States, is that the party has to come together and it can't be ripping each other's throats apart, you know, tearing at each other's jugulars morning, noon and night for this purity test that we want to hold ourselves up to that, Oh, I'm the constitutional purist. I'm the conservative purist. You're not.
I mean, when people are starting to question the conservative bona fides of you, me, Phyllis Schlafly, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee and Jeff Sessions, then the world has turned upside down.
OK, like, I don't -- I don't really -- I don't take well to people's questioning of my dedication to conservatism over the past -- you know, really since I've been in college getting sued by liberal professors.
And I kind of let it roll off my back and I know Sessions and everybody else does, too. You have a thick skin. But we don't sit there stomping our feet, saying, Never, never Cruz or never Rubio. No. We say, Look, let's get through this process. And let's unite behind whoever is really close to getting to 1,237.
HANNITY: I actually do...
INGRAHAM: That's my view.
HANNITY: I say never Hillary.
INGRAHAM: Yes!
HANNITY: That's my hashtag.
INGRAHAM: That's a hashtag.
HANNITY: I've even gotten of Twitter because Dana Perino erased my Twitter app on my phone because she thinks I've been too mean to people. That's a whole different story.
But let's go to this whole idea of a contested convention. It seems like now that's where everyone's focus is. And certainly, there's a coordinated effort to stop Trump all within the rules, all fair play.
INGRAHAM: Yes.
HANNITY: Trump's got to win the delegates. But let's assume we get to the convention. He's winning, millions of more votes, states, delegates. And then he doesn't get the nomination. Does that then intensify this divide, or does somehow, everyone -- you know, does, you know, "Can't we all get along" win the day? I don't see that happening.
INGRAHAM: I think it depends on how this all goes over the next, you know, four weeks. If it seems pretty fair, then I think people will come together. If people feel like this is a bunch of arm-twisting done behind closed doors, where, you know, Trump delegates are kind of, you know, conveniently left out of the equation and where it's a bunch of horse trading of the type we saw with, you know, the -- all the Cornhusker kickback days and all that, then I don't think it's going to go well.
If at the end of this people feel like it was rough and they were rough with each other, it was a tough primary, but they fought it out and they gave it the good college try, and then if Ted gets it or Trump gets it, then we can come together. But I think when you have these never-Trump people out there saying I just will never do it, you know, all these histrionics, commentary that is really denigrating to Trump voters, I think those Trump voters have been mistreated for a long time in our political system. They're not going to much like it if Republicans are treating them badly at the end.
HANNITY: I wrote you one night on an election night. I don't remember what point in the process, but you were the only one that was -- that said something that I had felt, which was this is the year of the insurgent. The establishment lost. This seems to now have gotten lost on people, right?
INGRAHAM: Well, I think when you have billionaires funding the super PAC that are designed to do one thing, turn away the votes of millions and millions of people across the country, it makes people wonder. These are the -- these are the very billionaires who profited off of absolutely obscene globalization that de-industrialized placed like upstate New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, Columbus, Ohio. They profited off of all this. That's fine, I guess. I mean, they like this stuff. Open borders don't affect their lives. They don't send their kids to public schools.
But it affected the rest of America, and that's why Trump and Cruz are pretty much the last men standing. I don't mean to be mean to Kasich. Look, Trump is up at 55 percent in New York. He's up by 20 points plus in Pennsylvania. He's up in Maryland significantly, as you pointed out. California will be a very diverse state, different state, but I think he and Cruz, they've got to kind of come to terms with where we are. And I don't like -- I really don't like the "Lying Ted" stuff. I wouldn't say that. And I don't like the Kim Kardashian comments by Cruz. I don't like any of those things.
I think it's time to focus on the issues. Hillary is a disaster. May the best man win, and try to really appeal to those people who have been left out of politics. They feel left out and denigrated. But I don't like it when these people say never a Republican. I think that's destructive the party, and really it hurts, I think, the people who have been hurt enough by bad policies.
HANNITY: You know, I read in a famous book one time blessed are the peacemakers. You get that award tonight. Laura Ingraham, thank you.
INGRAHAM: Thanks.
HANNITY: And coming up next tonight here next on "Hannity" --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE BLASIO: Sorry, Hillary. I was running on CP time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not -- I don't like jokes like that, Bill. That's not --
CLINTON: Cautious politician time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: All right, racist joke, so why does Hillary Clinton get a pass and New York City mayor comrade Bill de Blasio get a pass? We'll debate that next.
Then later, the CIA director says his agency will never bring back enhanced interrogation techniques. Really? What if we know somebody has a suitcase bomb in an American city? We'll check in with Dr. Sebastian Gorka, Bo Dietl. They'll weight in as we continue tonight on "Hannity."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." Hillary Clinton and New York City comrade Bill de Blasio in hot water for a racially charged joke they made this weekend at an event normally features satirical skits. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Thanks for the endorsement, Bill. Took you long enough.
(APPLAUSE)
DE BLASIO: Sorry, Hillary. I was running on CP time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not -- I don't like jokes like that, Bill. That's not funny.
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: Cautious politician time. I've been there.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: All right. Was that an over the line? What if Donald Trump or Ted Cruz said it? Here with reaction, trail attorney, political commentator Eric Guster, Fox News senior correspondent Geraldo Rivera, and the author of a brand new book just out today "Feisty and Feminine, A Rallying Cry for Conservative Women," our friend Penny Nance is back. By the way, the book is awesome. I've been reading through it. Congratulations. You're a great writer and a friend. Welcome to the program. Let me start with you. Geraldo and Eric are making fun of me because I said I never knew what "CP" meant before.
PENNY NANCE, "FEISTY AND FEMININE" AUTHOR: And --
Geraldo, I go out with you for crying out loud, and Eric. Give me a break.
NANCE: And I heard him say because you don't hang out with enough black people.
HANNITY: Eric said that.
NANCE: I do have black friends and I actually have not heard that either. Look, the one group of women -- her, Hillary's unfavorable with women overall around the nation 58 percent. One group she does really well with is African-American women. So you would think she would have been a little more careful and thoughtful about this.
HANNITY: Geraldo, if Donald Trump said that, wouldn't they call him a racist? If Ted Cruz said that, wouldn't they have called him a racist? I can't stand the double standard.
GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Before I answer that question, I think you may be on to something, and Penny is absolutely right when she suggests that Hillary is disproportionally dependent on the African-American vote, and if anywhere she should tread lightly with the community because that really has been the backbone of her support over --
HANNITY: That's her base.
RIVERA: -- over Bernie Sanders.
In terms of reaction to a Republican uttering the same thing, it would have been catastrophic or cataclysmic. I definitely believe it.
HANNITY: Here's the thing. I can't stand the double standard. I would be lying if I sat here and now that I know it's a vernacular used by so many people because you two were making fun of me for 10 minutes. I get it. I don't have the problem. But the double standard, Eric. And if this was Trump, Cruz, this would be the end of their campaign and the outrage and the indignation would be phony.
ERIC GUSTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It would not be the end of the campaign.
It would.
GUSTER: Trump has ignited racial flames all over the country. He has supported people who have attacked black protesters. He's offered to pay legal fees for people who have attacked --
HANNITY: You are a broken record. You say this every time you're on.
GUSTER: Because it's the truth.
HANNITY: It's not racist. Nothing he said is racist.
GUSTER: I'm not talking about -- I said he's fanning racial flames.
HANNITY: OK, that's calling him a racist and that's total BS. Geraldo doesn't agree with you.
GUSTER: His language and his rhetoric fans racial divide in our country, and he is actually supporting it.
HANNITY: You know what? And then you give Hillary and comrade de Blasio a pass.
GUSTER: Hillary should have made a better decision on that.
HANNITY: Oh, she should have made a better decision, and Trump is outrageous.
NANCE: It would have been a Todd Akin moment if a Republican had said that, absolutely.
But, Sean, let me just say one of the reasons I wrote the book because there's this big issues that we've been talking about tonight, national security.
HANNITY: You have any issues with Trump?
NANCE: I have a lot of issues with some of the things that he said, yes. I think because --
HANNITY: As a candidate you will vote for him?
NANCE: Over Hillary, any day, any day. And by the way, he has a 68 percent unfavorable rating with women, 10 points higher than Hillary.
HANNITY: Hillary is not doing hot either.
NANCE: And he doesn't even carry married women, which is a sweet spot for Republicans.
But let me just say, this is a year for a Republican and particularly conservative women of faith to get their bearings, learn the issues, and lean in. This is an important moment.
RIVERA: I think that what is very important right now, you bear me out on this -- the nation has not in 20 years been this divided racially. I think it's the great failing of President Obama he hasn't done more to heal the racial divide. I think to make race jokes at this stage of the game is pretty ill-advised. It is lamentable, because back in my day you could make jokes, you could be crossover and say this about that and the other one. You can't anymore, and I think it is lamentable. But I think a politician --
HANNITY: No, no. Liberals can, Geraldo.
RIVERA: I don't think it's true.
HANNITY: Hillary got away with it.
GUSTER: Liberals aren't telling people to go beat people in the face, Sean.
HANNITY: Are you going to repeat that line every time you're on?
GUSTER: Let me finish. I will take Hillary over those two front-runners any day of the week.
HANNITY: You can have her.
RIVERA: A Republican will take her candidate, the Democrat will take his candidate, and I'm the swing vote.
HANNITY: There you go. Where are you going?
"Feisty and Feminine" in bookstores everywhere. Coming up, Donald Trump fires back at CIA Director John Brennan for criticizing his proposal for enhanced interrogation techniques against terrorists. Bo Dietl, Sebastian Gorka, weigh in next straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." CIA Director John Brennan is making headlines after an interview with NBC News where he said that he would never bring back the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: We've learned lessons from the past. We have a lot of capabilities and competencies and skills, and so I don't believe that we need to resort to certain types of tactics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like waterboarding?
BRENNAN: Absolutely I would not agree to having any CIA officer carrying out waterboarding again.
This organization will do what it can to protect the American public from the attacks of terrorists groups. I will not agree to carry out some of these tactics and techniques that I have heard bandied about because this institution needs to endure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Now Donald Trump, he fired back at those comments, and here's what he said yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think his comments are ridiculous. I mean, they chop off heads and they drown people in cages with 50 in a cage with in big, steel, heavy cages, drop them right into the water, drown people. And we can't water board and we can't do anything, and, you know, we're playing on different fields. And we have a huge problem with ISIS which we can't beat, and the reason we can't beat them is we won't use strong tactics whether it's this or other things.
Can you imagine these ISIS people sitting around eating and talking about this country won't allow waterboarding and they just chopped off 50 heads.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Here with reaction, former NYPD detective Bo Dietl, author of the brand new book "Defeating Jihad, The Winnable War," the distinguished chair of military theory at Marine Corps University Dr. Sebastian Gorka. By the way, I love the book. It's awesome. You're a great military mind. We can defeat ISIS but don't we first have to recognize they exist?
DR. SEBASTIAN GORKA, "DEFEATING JIHAD" AUTHOR: Totally. We have to talk about them honestly, get politics out of the threat assessment, jettison all this garbage about how it's unemployment and lack of education that makes people behead other human beings and talk about the fact that these people are evil.
HANNITY: Remember the jobs program for terrorists?
GORKA: Also Jihadis.
HANNITY: Yes.
But enhanced interrogation, specifically, we didn't get bin Laden without them. I interviewed Jose Rodriguez on this show. You wouldn't have found the courier which led us to bin Laden without Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, KSM, giving that information after being water boarded.
GORKA: We have to be factual here. Only three people underwent the enhanced interrogation techniques. In this case it was crucial. I am a little bit skittish about making it a policy across the United States. If there's a ticking time bomb, if there's something, if it's the number one HVT, the number one high-value target, I can understand it. But to say we just do it willy-nilly, that is another issue.
HANNITY: We've never done it willy-nilly.
GORKA: No. No.
HANNITY: Bo, with all your ears, let's say you get called, you're a detective, you get called on a job, kidnapping. Three people enter somebody's house, a home invasion. Two of them get away with two children. The father or mother tackles the one other guy. He knows where they're taking those kids. How soon do you have to act to get those kids back?
BO DIETL, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: You've got to act immediately. I always use this thing, if I'm the president and Brennan is the head of my CIA and he makes a statement like that, I'd say, Mr. Brennan, you don't have a job anymore.
My point is we should not be advertising what our CIA does. That's one. We can't blow up our mouths all the time when we do these things. It can be used in certain situations.
HANNITY: You mentioned the word "evil." This is evil in our time. But there seems to be a mysterious reluctance and resistance from acknowledging that simple truth.
GORKA: Absolutely. If you don't believe in objective truth, if you are a champion of multiculturalism, then you're not going to say that such a thing as evil. Remember, this is the administration that thinks you can negotiate with the mullahs in Iran.
HANNITY: I'm surprised they didn't live up to their --
GORKA: I'm not surprised.
DIETL: I've been to Saudi Arabia two dozen times from the late 70s through the 80s. I just learned the guy that I broke my leg with parachuting, he was a brigadier general in the Saudi army. He was just killed within the last year on the border of Yemen and Saudi Arabia. There are a lot of Saudi Arabian military people that are fighting Al Qaeda, are fighting these Muslim terrorists right now. We have an ally in Saudi Arabia. There is another faction in Saudi Arabia. And I can't pronounce.
GORKA: Wahhabis.
DIETL: Yes. That's over there. And we go back to 1979 when they took over Mecca, remember that?
HANNITY: Release the 28 pages that have been redacted from public view as it relates to 9/11 and you'll learn all about Wahhabism and the Saudis involvement, correct?
GORKA: That's where it all begins. Saudi Arabia, the siege of Mecca.
DIETL: I was there. And you know what we need? What we need is we need cooperation from the Muslim people to help fight these --
HANNITY: You would hope so, but unfortunately that has not been as forthcoming as we'd like.
I love the book, "Defeating Jihad, The Winnable War," appreciate it. Bo, good to see you.
Coming up next, we need your help, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: All right, time for our "Question of the Day." Do you think the GOP process for selecting a nominee is fair? Some do, some don't. We want to hear what you have to say. Go to Facebook.com/SeanHannity, @SeanHannity on Twitter, let us know what you think.
Quick programming note, be sure to tune in tomorrow night, 10:00 p.m. I will be in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, interview Donald Trump. He has the full hour. And then I will on Friday be in Binghamton, New York, with Senator Ted Cruz. It's all part of the best election coverage right here on "Hannity."
That is all the time we have left this evening. We hope you'll set your DVR. We take attendance. It hurts our feelings if you're not there, so you never miss an episode. Thanks for being with us. We'll see you from Pittsburg tomorrow night.
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