This is a rush transcript from "The Story," October 30, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS HOST: Thank you, Bret. So, we are one week out now from the midterm elections and the heat is clearly on. The president all in revving up the base saying now that he believes he can change the ability to gain U.S. citizenship if you're born on U.S. American soil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're the only country in the world where a person comes in, has a baby, and the baby is essentially a citizen of the United States for 85 years with all of those benefits. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous and it has to end.
JONATHAN SWAN, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Have you talked about that with counsel?
TRUMP: Yes. I have.
SWAN: So we're in the process.
TRUMP: It's in the process, it'll happen. It's with an executive order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, Canada is the only other developed nation to have this rule according to the IMF. Others also have it, but the move sparked some outrage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RUTH MARCUS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, THE WASHINGTON POST: It's ridiculous that we have the rule. It's not ridiculous that we have this rule, this rule is in the Constitution.
THIRU VIGNARAJAH, FORMER DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, MARYLAND: There is no precedent, there is no legal authority, there is no legitimate basis to the suggestion.
BROOKE BALDWIN, HOST, CNN: This is the president of United States who is supposed to be on office and uphold the Constitution, and he is trying to defy the Constitution.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM: But actually, if you look back in history, this idea has been discussed obviously since the original debate of the 14th Amendment. And the meaning of the words of that amendment have been wrangled with for decades.
In fact, Jeb Bush also suggested that perhaps the amendment should be revisited, as did Harry Reid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: If making it easy to be an illegal alien isn't enough, how about offering a reward for being an illegal immigrant. No sane country would do that, right? Guess again. If you break our laws by entering this country without permission and give birth to a child, we reward that child with U.S. citizenship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, Reid later backpedaled on that and changed his mind. So, he regretted bringing it up. But in moments, Brit Hume is here on the vitriol toward President Trump following this announcement.
But first, we start with constitutional law attorney, Jonathan Turley for a level-headed look at what the president actually can and cannot do. Jonathan, good to have you with us here tonight.
You say that this -- you're glad the president brought it up because you believe that it will force the courts to look at it and that's good.
JONATHAN TURLEY, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: That's absolutely correct. You know, we're about 150 years late in finding out what this amendment means.
There has been a debate since this was first ratified. All of this debate turns on these six rather ill-chosen words. Is to what was meant by being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
Some of the drafters at the time clearly evidenced a belief that non- citizens that come to this country, whether they're diplomats or undocumented would not have immediate citizenship for their children. And so, there's a good debate here. There are three different types of interpretations that have been put forward.
I can't imagine how people can say with such certainty that this language means that anyone in the United States for any reason can have a citizen when they give birth on our soil. That's not evident from the text of the amendment. Many people at the time clearly didn't hold that view.
Now, it's not -- that's not a frivolous view, there's good faith arguments on both sides. But the Supreme Court has never said with any clarity or finality what it means. The only --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Interesting. So you think that this would -- this would kind of -- you know, move that forward. Can the president do it with an executive order? Could he make that change?
TURLEY: That I think is more doubtful. I think Lindsey Graham is right that the best way to go about this is with legislation. Of those three interpretations, the president would lose on two in using this particular means.
It ultimately comes back to the meaning of the amendment. If the amendment means that anyone in the United States can produce a child who is a citizen, then, obviously the president can't change it, neither can Congress. One interpretation is that it's left to Congress, and in that case, he still can't change it with an executive order, but Congress can.
So an executive order is not the ideal way to go here. He's adding baggage to an already difficult challenge.
MACCALLUM: So, here's a tweet from Jim Acosta earlier today. He said, "The founders set up the Constitution so the president can't do what he's proposing to do with birthright citizenship. It's a stunt like sending troops to the border for a non-existent invasion," he says.
But you know, in terms of the first part of that, we're going to get to the second part of it within a moment with Brit Hume. But in terms of the ability to approach this as a president, what is -- you know, what tools does he have in his toolbox potentially?
TURLEY: Well, the best tool is to go to Congress and follow the lead in this case of Lindsey Graham, and to seek legislation. It's a good thing for this to be reviewed by the court. The Supreme Court ruled many years ago that a Chinese family was entitled to the citizenship of their child who was born on U.S. soil.
But that family was here as legal residence. And many people who adopt the more narrow view of this amendment believe that, that with citizens would fit that narrow interpretation. So, the Supreme Court still has work to do and it's been about150 years for it to do it.
MACCALLUM: Jonathan Turley, always enlightening. Thank you very much. Good to talk to you tonight.
TURLEY: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, as we said, that heat's on about a week to go. So, all of these issues are hot, hot, hot right now. And there is no shortage of vitriol flying around on both sides. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE SCARBOROUGH, CO-HOST, MORNING JOE, MSNBC: But what Donald Trump and what the Republican Party that has now been completely taken over by Donald Trump is using is, is -- it racism.
And you see it in Donald Trump, saying he's going to circumvent the Constitution with an executive order. He can't do that. It's not about anything other than scaring Americans, and actually appealing to the most racist base instincts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume, says that the charges that the president is racist reflect media coverage gone awry. Brit, good evening to you.
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Your reaction to Mr. Scarborough, there.
HUME: Well, look, this may be misbegotten as Jonathan Turley suggests. And an executive order may not possibly pass muster under the Constitution to repeal birthright citizenship. But that doesn't make it racist.
I mean, racism is a pretty clear thing, it is the belief in the superiority of one race over another and you have to pretty well express that it seems to me to be considered a racist. And I think the case that's constantly made, and you hear it. It's not even a case, it's the assertion that's constantly made, the casually made flung about that Donald Trump is a racist is simply not substantiated.
And for Joe Scarborough, who ought to know better, to say something like that as casually as he did there, it seems to me is, is what is an example of why the media are having so much trouble building public support these days. It's declined to near record low levels and this kind of stuff is what's part of it.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, that's the problem. And so, you know, you can't bring something up and discuss it without these labels starting to be attached to it. And you know, we played that video of Harry Reid way back when, it was in the 90s, long, long time ago.
But, you know, bringing up the topic, discussing it, he later changed his mind about how he felt about it. But the idea that discussing it.
Now, I understand that there's a -- you know, a perception which may be true that this is political with one week to go, and that it's -- you know, sort of throwing more red meat where the president thinks it will help them out a week from now.
But the idea that you can't even discuss it without being labeled a racist is I think something we all have to sort of really stick, take a step back and think about here.
HUME: And think about it this way, Martha. What's that -- what is the great achievement of the civil rights movement of the 60s and beyond? And that was that racism in America became absolutely unacceptable.
I mean, the overwhelming consensus in this country is anti-racist, and that is why it has become unfortunately since then, a cudgel in the hands of those who would use it to attack others. Because if you can be successfully labeled a racist, you're a finished.
I mean, that is about as damaging that -- as anything you can have. So, it's tempting for demagogues to fling that term about. What you don't expect is people who are supposed to have some sense in the media. Who even if they are -- you know, if they were entitled to express their opinions to be tossing around a term like that. It's just totally improper.
And earlier, you know, you had a quote from a White House correspondent for CNN who labeled this a stunt, and said it was a -- you know, it was a bogus threat at the border.
Well, maybe it is. But is that the job of a beat reporter to be saying that, or is that the job of one of their editorialists, one of their opinion dispensers? Because in my day, when I was covering in the White House, you couldn't be both.
MACCALLUM: Fascinating. Well, look, you know, David Remnick also weighed in. He is more of an opinion person. But this is sort of the general line of thinking that it's OK to say that the president is a racist because we're in completely unprecedented times, and they believe that -- you know, basically, the country as we know it under this president is falling apart. Watch this.
DAVID REMNICK, EDITOR, THE NEW YORKER: This is an emergency.
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, CO-HOST, MORNING JOE, MSNBC: Yes.
REMNICK: The Trump presidency represents an emergency. I can't emphasize that enough.
BRZEZINSKI: I agree.
REMNICK: The President of the United States of America now encourages division hatred --
SCARBOROUGH: Right.
REMNICK: -- and exploiting this for purely electoral means.
MACCALLUM: So, that was the discussion this morning. And you know, nods all around the table. Everybody just nodding, absolutely. Oh, yes, absolutely in agreement.
HUME: You know -- Well, you know, Martha, I've been saying for some time now that a journalists in this country consider his -- Mr. Trump's election to be a national emergency. I kind of expected I might get some pushback on that. It is interesting to hear one of the dukes who --
MACCALLUM: Come on this picked up your line.
HUME: -- of liberal journalism pronouncing that as if it's a certified fact. If you look what's going on around this country, if you get outside of New York City where the opinions seem not to differ very much among journalists, you don't see this attitude. They don't feel like you're an emergency.
Now, they may have trials and tribulations, they may have policies they don't like. But you know, with unemployment at these levels with this stock market still way higher than it was when he took office and so on, I don't think people think this is an emergency, and I don't think that increasing the defense budget and taking a different posture around the world constitutes an emergency.
The thing about Trump, is he says a lot of extravagant things, but if you - - if you follow him with any -- with any thought, you notice that his bark is far worse than his bite.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
HUME: And that a lot of the stuff, he says it's just bluster that people react to get their hair on fire about it all the time. You know you feel like saying, "Folks, grow up." Watch.
MACCALLUM: Yes. And know, I was listening to this conversation this morning. I listened to hear sort of what the meat behind the argument was, and at one point it went to that he was responsible for sort of like emotional climate change in the country. You know, a version of emotional psychological climate change in the country.
HUME: That's a good phrase. Yes.
MACCALLUM: One last question because, you know, the politics of this suggestion that he has made in terms of changing the 14th Amendment sort of went both ways today. Here's Paul Ryan. I want to get one last thought for you on the politics of that suggestion.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. PAUL RYAN, R—WISC., SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: You cannot end birthright citizenship with an executive order. You know, as a conservative, I'm a believer in following the plain text of the Constitution. And I think in this case, the 14th Amendment is pretty clear, and that would involve a very, very lengthy constitutional process. But where we obviously totally agree with the president is getting at the root issue here, which is unchecked illegal immigration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Chuck Grassley basically agreed with him, and Lindsey Graham lined up with the president that it was worth looking at this.
HUME: Yes, but Lindsey Graham, said the way to do was -- you know, he would try it in Congress and he would and indeed, I believe he went on to say they introduced a constitutional amendment.
So, I think -- you know, on balance, the members, the leaders on the Hill are not lining up with the President on this idea of an executive order.
Look, I think the language of the 14th Amendment is pretty clear. I don't think you can do this by an executive order. It'll be interesting to see if it gets tested in the court. But one can only imagine, for example, Brett Kavanaugh, what he's devoted -- his devotion to the text of the Constitution, ruling on an executive order by a president that says, "I'm revoking this." I don't have a sense that the kind of judges that the president has promoted to the bench are going to take anything other than a dim view of this.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Well, you know, it's interesting because Jonathan Turley said that these five words subject to the jurisdiction thereof have never been -- you know, really tested by the Supreme Court in this way. And he welcomed that kind of discussion and debate over the constitutionality of it. So, it will be interesting to see where it closed. Brit, thank you.
HUME: Yes, it will be. You bet.
MACCALLUM: Yes, thanks so much. Great to see you.
HUME: You bet, Martha. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, despite calls like this to stay away --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK DIAMOND, FORMER RABBI, TREE OF LIFE SYNAGOGUE: Please Mr. President, if you're watching this. Wait, wait a week. Come next week. The focus this week is on the funerals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: President Trump was in Pittsburgh today. Here are some of the scenes from that. He is with the rabbi from The Tree of Life synagogue there. He paid his respects to the community that's been shaken after a mass shooting at the local synagogue, the Tree of Life.
Mollie Hemingway, here on the optics, the civility, the healing of all of this. Coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So President Trump in Pittsburgh today with the First Lady and his daughter Ivanka and son-in-law Jared Kushner all showing their support and mourning the lives of the innocent 11 people who were gunned down as they worshipped at Tree of Life Synagogue on Saturday. That's the Rabbi in front of them there. The visit overshadowed somewhat by controversy as some protested and there were some officials who stayed away. At least one potential presidential candidate cast blame on the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, FORMER MAYOR, NEW YORK: When he goes around getting people to scream in hate bad things happen. And that's you saw the results here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: But U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley defended the President and offered some context from her time as South Carolina governor when a hate crime struck Charleston in 2015 and nine African-American churchgoers were murdered at the hands of a white supremacist. Haley tweeting in part, "the country was very racially divided at the time, we didn't once blame President Obama. We focused solely on the lives lost and their families. Have some respect for these families and stop the blame.
Here now Mollie Hemingway, Senior Editor of The Federalist and a Fox News Contributor. Mollie good evening to you. Good to have you here today. Your thoughts on this controversy as we watch the President in Pittsburgh.
MOLLIE HEMINGWAY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think it's important at times like this for everyone in the country to unify, to come together and to join together to condemn acts of terrorism such as this. You saw a lot of media highlighting of people saying that the President shouldn't represent the country at the Tree of Life Synagogue. You didn't see a lot of coverage of the rabbi of the congregation, Rabbi Jeffrey Meyer who said that of course, the President is welcome, that he's welcome anytime reminding people that he is a citizen of this country, that the rabbi is a citizen and that that is his president. That's the proper posture. It's one that the country has done a pretty good job with.
In previous incidents, we've had controversial presidents for a while now, but generally, the country comes together in unity to condemn acts of terrorism and that's a good place to be. It has been disappointing to see the media, mainstream media figures and other people on the left use it as a political cudgel.
MACCALLUM: What does she think of Nikki Haley's comments about the similar incident in some ways that happened in Charleston?
HEMINGWAY: Yes, unfortunately, because evil exists there were quite a few acts of terrorism during President Obama's eight years of presidency. And even at a very controversial time, you know, she gave the example of what happened in South Carolina, also there was the Gabby Giffords shooting in Arizona and I think what you saw was people largely responded to President Obama's remarks and speaking on those issues in good faith. They generally commended him for his work at those times. That is a -- that is a much better way to be.
Again, it has been a missed opportunity I think for the media in that they have used this not as a time of unity but for -- to two to demonstrate that they're not very good at covering issues like this fairly. They're literally blaming Donald Trump for these horrific acts of anti-Semitism -- horrific acts of anti-Semitism which is inappropriate on multiple levels. Not only is he not an anti-Semite but it's a form of scapegoating.
What this shooter did at the synagogue in Pittsburgh was scapegoat Jews for -- he thought he thought Jews were to blame for everything that was wrong in the world. That's scapegoating. The proper response to violent scapegoating is not to scapegoat other people to say that President Trump or Republicans are the reason that these types of things happen. That's a very inappropriate reaction.
MACCALLUM: David Harsanyi, your colleague at the Federalist said it was ironic to see many of the same Liberals who recently fought to prop up the world's most powerful Jew-hating terrorist state, he wrote, lecturing us on the importance of combating anti-Semitism but they were -- they were -- but they were -- but there they were I should say, yesterday. What do you think about that?
HEMINGWAY: Right. And this is the thing. People want to make anti- Semitism a thing on the left or a thing on the right, unfortunately, anti- Semitism has a long and storied history. It exists all across the political spectrum and it is very disappointing to see people not deal with the anti-Semitism problem in their own corner, use it again as a political cudgel against other people. A lot of what we've seen with the recent -- with recent spate of anti-Semitic rhetoric or violence has come from the left and it can come from the right as well. It is a universe problem and it should not be used to target one political side or another.
MACCALLUM: Mollie, I thank you. Great to have you with us tonight, Mollie Hemingway. So coming up next, Hillary Clinton cracks a joke during a discussion about African-American politicians--
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, UNITED STATES FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes, I know they all look alike.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No they don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Juan Williams says relax, it was just a joke and he joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Well, I'd like to be president.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So that comment made even Hillary's fellow Democrats a little bit nervous perhaps some of them this week. And then today there's another controversy over a little joke that she made about race. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you think of Cory Booker's and you didn't come under him and you feel --
CLINTON: No, I adore him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think about him saying kick them in the shins essentially start to get to that kind of political.
CLINTON: Well, that was Eric Holder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Holder, yes, sorry.
CLINTON: Yes, I know they all look alike.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, they don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Whoa, said the crowd. Joining me now Juan Williams co-host of "The Five" and Fox News political analyst one always good to have you here. What do you think?
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think you know, I'm glad you played that piece about Hillary saying she want to be president and everybody whoa. And of course, if you play the whole tape you'd see she said, I'm not running again. And in this case, I think --
MACCALLUM: Hold on. She said -- she said I don't want to run for president --
WILLIAMS: There you go.
MACCALLUM: -- but I'd like to be president.
WILLIAMS: Correct.
MACCALLUM: She doesn't like the running, the politics part --
WILLIAMS: Well, you got to run. You got to run.
MACCALLUM: But she does sure well, think about after the midterms. I going wait until after the Midterms --
WILLIAMS: Yes, I see -- no. I mean, but -- I say, Martha, for president, if you want to run, that's what I suspect. And in this case, I think it's pretty clear that Kara Swisher had confused Cory Booker and Eric Holder for the -- if they go low kick him. And so she plays on this and Kara's response is telling, she says no they don't, and then she realizes, oh my God everybody's laughing. Hillary Clinton was just playing on the old meme of black people looking like or something and it was a joke. But it was to me obviously, a transparent joke. I don't think there was any ill will intended or involved and I think that --
MACCALLUM: Let me ask you this --
WILLIAMS: -- people who don't like Hillary are going after it.
MACCALLUM: Right. You know, if President Trump said that in an in the same situation.
WILLIAMS: Oh different context because of his whole divisive nature on in terms of racial comments. But again, I think in that situation conservatives don't like politically correct speech and the inability to make a joke and I think President Trump in that situation he would have set off alarms but I think he would have had the same defense.
MACCALLUM: But you know, but this is what -- and we live in such a hypersensitive moment right?
WILLIAMS: Correct.
MACCALLUM: And when you and I spoke about Ron DeSantis you know, and he said monkey it up, right? You felt that that was clearly a racial issue.
WILLIAMS: Now, the question was --
MACCALLUM: And I said I think he was just joking and I think he even mixed up his metaphors when he made that joke.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: But he wasn't allowed to -- that -- he wasn't let off the hook for that.
WILLIAMS: No, because I think that the whole question was about DeSantis playing to white nationalists instincts.
MACCALLUM: But you're putting it on top of --
WILLIAMS: No, I'm just saying, I'm a -- I'm a journalist, you're a journalist, we know the context of that race in Florida is quite rich especially with racial animosity and when DeSantis used that coming out of the box against Gillum, I mean it's like Gillum said in the recent debate, you know, it's not that I'm saying he's racist, it's that white racist say he's one of them. That's a -- that's a hell of a statement.
MACCALLUM: Well, I mean -- I mean, you know, we could have a whole discussion about the Florida race, it's very -- you know, we actually have -- we have more on that because here's the way it stands right now. Andrew Gillum is up 46.9 Ron DeSantis at 43.9. And I should just say he would completely -- DeSantis would say that you know, your characterization of him is completely wrong. He has said --
WILLIAMS: I didn't character -- I just quoted what Gilliam said about him. But again what I am saying and I don't think this is in dispute is that race in that contest for governor of Florida is a charged issue.
MACCALLUM: All right, let's take a look at this stop from President Trump with regard to that. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He is a guy that in my opinion is a stone-cold thief. And his city, Tallahassee is known as the most corrupt in Florida and one of the most corrupt in the nation. He is a disaster. And how he's even close to being tie is hard to believe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Now a lot was read into that today because he called him a stone-cold thief. Now the whole issue here is over Hamilton tickets, and you know, some investigation that was done. They're saying he's not under investigation but there are questions that were raised about whether or not he inappropriately got these theater tickets.
The president as he often does goes, you know, way further. But he does that with everybody regardless of their gender, regardless of their race.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: He often does that. But boy, that point was jumped all over today. That that was a racist thing for him to say.
WILLIAMS: I don't know about racist. But goodness, gracious. Don't call thief and he then doesn't have anything to back it up. If he said, here's why this man is a thief. We know XYZ, then you'd say, well, I guess he has the goods, but he doesn't have the good.
So, it comes across as a political statement intended to help his favorite Ron DeSantis down in Florida.
MACCALLUM: But you don't see that stone-cold statement. You would not say that that--
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I don't know how race got into that one.
MACCALLUM: No. I watch the whole segment on another show.
WILLIAMS: I don't think that's fair.
MACCALLUM: OK.
WILLIAMS: But I do think it's -- I think is libelous. I mean if you come out and say Juan Williams is a thief. You say, why would you say such a thing? What evidence do you have of that, and when he was ask about President Trump--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Well, he's seen on the whole stupid thing about the Hamilton ticket. I'm not saying that it's substantiated but the conversation that's happening in that race, that's what he's talking about.
WILLIAMS: Well, now if you say someone is a thief I hope you have some evidence of it beyond he took some theater tickets from an FBI undercover agent. I think the best argument, Martha, from the president's perspective would be the ongoing probe into Tallahassee, a corruption--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: That's what he said.
WILLIAMS: Yes. But there is nothing, nothing in the FBI isn't saying that Gillum is the target of that investigation.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: But they're investigating the office.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Not the office. They're investigating the whole city hall operation. But I would think the president--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Of what he (Inaudible).
WILLIAMS: Right. But I would think that President Trump especially given the Mueller investigation would be very sensitive to anybody saying you are the target when in fact President Trump repeatedly says he's not the target of the probe into Russian interference.
MACCALLUM: Good point. Juan, thanks.
WILLIAMS: You're welcome.
MACCALLUM: Good to see you.
WILLIAMS: Nice to see you.
MACCALLUM: Thanks for coming by.
So, with more than 5,000 troops deploying to the southern border, we talked to the man who once led the counterinsurgency strategy in Afghanistan about whether President Trump's answer to the migrant caravan will work. General Stanley McChrystal coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were just saying, just saying gets people sent to Allenwood, just saying could get you buried real quick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Great scene from the movie "Black Mass" based on Boston mob boss Whitey Bulger. The man once known as the most wanted fugitive in the United States. He was reportedly murdered today on his first day at a new West Virginia federal prison. It was new to him.
Trace Gallagher live from our West Coast newsroom with a look back at one of America's most notorious killers. Trace?
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Martha, the Department of Justice and Bureau of Prisons still won't confirm exactly how Whitey Bulger died, but as you noted, there are numerous reports saying the former mob boss was killed by fellow inmates with ties to the Mafia.
TMZ is also reporting that Bulger, who was confined to a wheelchair was wheeled into a secluded corner of the prison outside the view of surveillance cameras and beaten to death. He was found lying on the ground at 8:20 this morning.
Remember, Whitey Bulger was an FBI informant for many years and actually ratted out his gang's biggest rivals. Experts in organized crime say this may have been payback a long time coming.
In the mid-1990s it was a corrupt FBI agent who tipped off Bulger that he was about to be arrested. Bulger then fled and remained on the lam for 16 years, becoming the FBI's most wanted criminal.
And despite his face routinely being featured on national news and a film about his life, "The Departed" winning best picture in 2006, Whitey Bulger was somehow able to hide in plain sight living with his longtime girlfriend Catherine Greig in a seaside condominium in Santa Monica.
After getting a tip in 2011 the FBI raided the condo and found fake I.D.s, numerous weapons and $800,000 in cash. Bulger was then convicted on a laundry list of charges, including his part in 11 murders, though some investigators believe he killed dozens along with racketeering and money laundering charges.
Catherine Greig was also convicted on lesser charges and is scheduled to be released from prison in 2020. Whitey Bulger to gain the nickname as a kid because of his blonde hair had been serving his life sentence at a prison in Florida, but he apparently threatened a prison employee and was transferred to the Hazleton prison in West Virginia.
He was killed just a few hours after arriving and is the third inmate killed in Hazleton in the past seven months.
The prison union says the facility is severely understaffed. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Wow. Quiet, a story. Thank you very much, Trace.
Here now joining me, someone that Whitey Bulger also threatened to kill because of his in-depth reporting over many years about the mob boss, Howie Carr, Boston Herald columnist and radio talk show. Howie, good to have you with us tonight.
HOWIE CARR, COLUMNIST, BOSTON HERALD: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: I am -- you wrote several books about him. You have studied him and his family for many years. What was your reaction when you heard what happened in West Virginia today?
CARR: Well, I know, Martha, you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but you now, he did threaten to kill me, and I fortunately wasn't murdered obviously but he was a monster. He was really an arch criminal. He was a bank robber, a cocaine dealer, a serial murderer, a pedophile, and extortionist.
He was a horrible, horrible person, and I can't say that I'm unhappy that he is dead tonight. You know, he lived to age of 89. That's a lot longer than most of his victims lived obviously. And--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Do you have any theory--
CARR: No one shedding any tears.
MACCALLUM: Any theory on what happened who wanted to get him and who might have been in this West Virginia prison to finish that job?
CARR: Well, I talked to Johnny Martorano, one of his partners today are in the Winter Hill gang who why I wrote a book with "Hitmen." And he said it's perfect karma, you know, the guy -- the guy ratted all these people into prison. And he was a vicious criminal who killed people in cold blood and so now he ends up by getting killed in cold blood in prison.
I don't know who killed them, really. I'm kind of surprised that there would still be this kind of up feeling about him are in organized crime. Most of the people that he -- that he double-crossed are either out and fairly old and, or they're dead. This is -- this is a perfect ending for him, though.
MACCALLUM: Maybe it's one of their -- one of their kids, one of their younger relatives, perhaps and maybe someday we'll learn.
CARR: Right.
MACCALLUM: Speaking of relatives, his brother learned the news of what happened today from a local reporter in Boston. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you heard the reports before?
JACKIE BULGER, WHITEY BULGER'S BROTHER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I the first one telling you this?
BULGER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry to be doing that.
BULGER: That's all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell me what's your reaction is on hearing that?
BULGER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's your brother.
BULGER: I know he is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would--
BULGER: I don't -- I don't have anything to say with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: What do you make of that?
CARR: Well, I mean, Jackie, Jackie Bulger, his younger brother paid a heavy price for being his sibling. He lost the state pension. He actually went to prison for a while for lying to a grand jury about visiting a Florida bank why he had a safe deposit box.
So, I guess you know, it's like the godfather Michael Corleone said, this is the life we chose, right?
MACCALLUM: Yes.
CARR: I mean, this is the life the Bulgers chose and this is the -- this is what they're paying. The trial, Martha, was it was amazing back in 2013. At one point one of the victims his girlfriend Catherine Greig who Trace was referring to, she had she was a divorce. She had two brothers-in-law and Whitey murdered both of her brothers-in-law.
MACCALLUM: My God.
CARR: And then she took up with him and lived with him. And he -- one of the brothers-in-law was a guy named Paulie McGonagle and after Whitey killed them and buried his body he disappeared. They couldn't get insurance for him. He called up the house where Paulie McGonagle lived and a 10-year-old, 12-year-old son picks up the phone. This was right at Christmas. Whitey says to the kid, "your father won't be home for Christmas."
MACCALLUM: My God.
CARR: And the kid goes, "who is this?" And Whitey goes, "Santa Claus."
MACCALLUM: Unbelievable. Great story, Howie. I guess there's something that Catherine Greig found appealing about all of that. She spent a lot of time with them in--
(CROSSTALK)
CARR: She likes the bad boys, that's what she said.
MACCALLUM: My gosh. Howie, thank you very much. Howie Carr, great to see you tonight, sir.
CARR: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Good to have you with us.
So, President Trump sets off some critics with his decision to send thousands of U.S. troops to our southern border. Is it the right move? We will talk to General Stanley McChrystal, former U.S. military commander in Afghanistan, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: The Pentagon announcing the deployment of more than 5,000 troops to the southern border and already critics are taking aim at the president's decision, noting that it is more than double the 2,000 troops in fighting in Syria against -- in Iraq against ISIS. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These troops are being rushed to the border in time for the midterms, not in time for the migrants to arrive.
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, ANCHOR, MSNBC: Exceeding the combined U.S. military footprint in Iraq and Syria.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, MSNBC: OK. It's not about anything other than scaring Americans and actually appealing to the most racist base instincts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: General Stanley McChrystal is the former U.S. commander in Afghanistan who developed and implemented a comprehensive counterinsurgency strategy there. He is also the author of the new book "Leaders: Myth and Reality." General, thank you so much for being with us. It's wonderful to have you with us tonight.
STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, RETIRED U.S. ARMY: Thanks for having me, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, tell me what your reaction is. You know, you hear the back- and-forth. The president obviously thinks it's a good idea to send them to the border. I interview the homeland security secretary. She thinks it's the right move on. And then you hear, you know, others who think that it's sort of just complete overkill, way overboard.
MCCHRYSTAL: Well, I think defending our borders is essential. I would say that announcing the deployment of regular army forces or regular military forces is nowhere sort of reinforcing the walls of the Alamo.
It creates a mental image that in some people, I think maybe connotes the idea of an emergency that I don't think it's this greatest the depiction might be.
MACCALLUM: You talk about the fact that you think that it's tempting to want strength in these tumultuous times. But you say that, you know, it's exactly the moment when you're in for a strong charismatic leader to lead us, in questioning our opposition that we actually need a more humble approach. Is that, is that about President Trump?
MCCHRYSTAL: No. That's about any leader. In reality, as we get pushed towards greater levels of vitriol and greater levels of emotion we want to defeat the enemy until they are crushed, until we went completely.
But in reality, that's a shortsighted view. There's going to be at tomorrow. There's going to be a next week. You have to deal with the people who were your opposition. And in many ways, it's that balance.
The Federalist papers the design of the United States is designed for that and I've seen it in conflict as well. We really need leaders who are mature enough to see a middle growth.
MACCALLUM: You talk about the comparisons. You make an analogy to Plutarch's lies and you draw comparisons between people like Boss Tweed and Margaret Thatcher. Just give us sort of a thumbnail sketch of what we can expect in your book with regard to that comparison.
MCCHRYSTAL: Sure. Our new book "Leaders: Myth and Reality" what we've done is taken 13 leaders. And when we look at that comparison like Boss Tweed and Margaret Thatcher, what we're really doing is exploring why they would emerge as leaders, and what we find is they're not two-dimensional caricatures. They're really very rich holistic flawed people and that's what we've got a look at in our leaders now, not only in the leaders we see and we follow, but the leaders we select for the future.
MACCALLUM: Well, General Mattis is leading the Department of Defense as you well know, and he spoke out today. And I just wanted to play this for you given your own commitment and the time that you spent leading our forces in Afghanistan, and I want to get your reaction to this assessment of his just a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES MATTIS, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It's not a matter of military is holding ground. The Afghan-led are doing the fighting. They look at the casualties over a 1,000 dead in August and September. A 1,000 dead and wounded in August and September and they stayed in the field fighting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: What would you say about that, sir?
MCCHRYSTAL: Well, I think Jim Mattis has got it right and I won't speak for him, but Afghanistan from afar looks very frustrating and up-close it is as well, but it's not the same place it was before 9/11. We've had females in school for now. Seventeen more years in young people.
There's a generation coming up in Afghanistan. They won't tolerate the foolishness that my generation is actually running in the country. So, I think that there's great hope for the future but there's frustration between now and then.
MACCALLUM: General Stanley McChrystal, great to have you with us tonight, sir. And congratulations on the book. It looks great. Thank you very much.
MCCHRYSTAL: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: You bet. So still ahead tonight, President Trump revised his attacks on the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When I say enemy of the people I'm talking about the fake news, and it is fake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: But Brian Kilmead says he is the first president to take issue in this way with the press, and he is here with a history lesson, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: President Trump renewing his attack on fake news in an interview here last night with Laura Ingraham. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When I say the enemy of the people I'm talking about the fake news, and you know it better than anybody. When I say enemy of the people I'm talking about the fake news and it is fake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So many critics denounced that as unpresidential, but perhaps there are other presidents who have had similar feelings. President Andrew Jackson, our seventh president, also hated fake news and talked about a quite a bit.
Here to explain is the expert on this. Brian Kilmeade, co-host of Fox and Friends, and author of the New York Times bestseller "Andrew Jackson and the Miracle of New Orleans." The paperback is now out so can stick it in your bag and carry with you everywhere and read it.
Hello, Brian.
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: Martha, we talked about this before.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
KILMEADE: I did not know that Donald Trump would even run for president when I was researching this. And he ran and he won, and I couldn't believe the similarities either could the present. He hangs up his portrait in the White House.
But one the obsessions of Andrew Jackson was bad press. And when I see Donald Trump again, I think over the top like Jackson did and just say fake news to everything. It just gets people like Jarvis, one of Axios or people here at Fox News exercise.
Well, who you mad at? Are you mad a network to puts on a panel of five people all who hate you as much, you know, as a hate you a lot? Or were you mad at people that are reporting news that might not be positive, or you're just mad that these people are not on your side.
So what Jackson did which I thought was appropriate, then Jackson which is clip the newspaper articles. And when he saw them he'd say hey, what's to deal with you. And we even have a picture he used to bind the, put them in binder. He was obsessed with it. And he keeps these binders right by his chair and those of the binder stayed back to he used to keep up until the day he died.
MACCALLUM: I saw those when I was at the Hermitage, they were sitting on a floor.
KILMEADE: I'm not allowed to open it because they turned to dust, but they are newspapers.
MACCALLUM: That's amazing.
KILMEADE: And as soon as Bill Jones or whoever wrote a bad story he'd open to page 56, he goes, you're not getting an interview until you can justify the story. Or he would write it back and flip it over and mail it back to them, and said fix this, you got it wrong.
He hired his own White House new service and he said call the White House news. If he like the reporters he hired that reporter and he says, now I want to tell the stories the way I want it.
I mean, Donald Trump might try to do that but that's why he's not the first. I was reading Bush 41. He was upset every day about the way the press was treating. It's not unusual. It's just that this, I think the president makes things worse by being so aggressive in the retort.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I think you are absolutely right. I think most presidents have complained about the news. The Clintons complained about the press so they were all over them all the time, so certainly that's not new. But I think, you know, the term "enemy of the people," obviously gets people riled up, but you know, the president doesn't ever hesitate to use it. He thinks it works for him.
KILMEADE: Washington didn't think Jackson was worthy, they hated him. He's used to go back home and go with his people. Trump in D.C. They hate them in D.C. When he goes to his people they both go to big crowds and explain the story. That's why they both were successful.
And keep in mind for Trump haters, Jackson was just as powerful after he left the White House than when he was in the White House because everyone come to him for advice and try to get some power.
So, if Donald, you know like Donald Trump he's not going anywhere, even if he leaves the White House.
MACCALLUM: History is always really the most important decider of presidential success, so we'll see.
KILMEADE: Right.
MACCALLUM: Brian, thank you very much.
KILMEADE: Martha, thanks for having me.
MACCALLUM: Great book. Send paperback, you can stick it in your purse. Thank you. That's our "Story" -- if you had one -- for tonight on this Tuesday night. We'll be back again tomorrow night at 7. "Tucker Carlson" is coming up next in D.C.
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