This is a rush transcript from "The Story," September 12, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Yes, we will be watching all of that, Bret, with you tonight. Thanks. Great to see you in Houston there, at this evening.
And tonight, a new plot twist in the ongoing story of Mr. Andrew McCabe. Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum, here in New York.
So, the Department of Justice for whom he worked for 21 years has reportedly overruled his appeal plea, and they will move forward with charges against him for lack of candor. When agents were questioning him, and they say that he was leaking FBI material to the press.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: I at no time, ever intentionally mislead director Comey, the inspector general, or the FBI inspectors investigating another media issue.
The fact is that report -- and I have been reading investigative reports for 21 years, is not like -- is not the product of any investigation that I'm --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, Mr. McCabe is now a contributor at CNN, where he has continued to express his concerns about President Trump even after the probe found no evidence to support it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you still believe the president could be a Russian asset?
MCCABE: I think it's possible.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Do you believe that an impeachment inquiry is warranted based on what you understand and what has come out in the Mueller report?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, we don't know where all of this is headed, but we do know that people who have seen much more of some of the unreleased testimony that we have surrounding what happened at the FBI and the CIA for that matter in the early days of the Russia probe believe that there is actually much more to this story. The attorney general has said that himself.
So, let's bring in Trey Gowdy, former House Oversight Committee chairman and Fox News contributor. Good evening to you, Trey. Thank you very much for being here tonight.
TREY GOWDY, CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: What's your reaction for this news that his appeal was rejected?
GOWDY: Twofold and one of them will be wildly unpopular, but I think it's important to say it. Number one, it's a celebration of our justice system where you can be the second in command if the world's premier law enforcement agency and still be subject to investigation and potentially indictment whether your second command that the FBI are working the second shift at a manufacturing plant in South Carolina, the blindfolded woman doesn't care who you are.
That's something to be celebrated for now, though, wildly unpopular part, he's presumed innocent.
GOWDY: And I know that's not popular to say in a political context. It's not, but he's presumed innocent, and even if he's indicted, the indictment is no evidence of a crime. He is entitled to present his case in front of 12 of his fellow citizens.
And look, I know -- I know politics doesn't reward fairness. But our justice system needs to survive long past the political vagaries. And it is important just like it was with President Trump when I was very tough on Democrats like Adam Schiff that wanted to put him in jail. Before the Mueller report, it ever been issued, I'm going to be consistent. If I'm wrong, I'm at least, consistently wrong.
MACCALLUM: Well, I -- and you know, I commend you on that and that's the way we have approached this as well. However, as we just played, Andrew McCabe has not given the same -- the same treatment to President Trump who he continue -- who did go through a two-year process of investigation and who he continues to go on television and accuse of -- you know, potentially being a Russian agent.
But I want to ask you something about -- you know, because a little -- it's a little confusing. The leak that he gave sensibly, allegedly to The Wall Street Journal was essentially a leak that appears it may have been done in an effort to sort of spin things his way. To make him look very fair that he was continuing to do the Clinton investigation while they were looking into these issues with regard to the president as well.
MCCALLUM: So, the question is why? You know, why would he feel, if he -- if he felt that he was being fair on both sides that he needed to do that to protect his image?
GOWDY: Self-interest. He lied to Michael Horowitz, his investigators because he leaked something that was in his best interest, it casts him in the best light possible. It's the oldest motive known to man, which is self-interests.
So, you -- when you have an obligation to tell the truth, he had an option, he could have not answering the question, he could have invoked the fifth. He could have told the truth. He took the one option he can't pick.
MACCALLUM: Yes, and it's worth pointing out that they're talking about four separate occasions. Four separate occasions when they say that he misled them.
GOWDY: Right. Two, to where he affirmatively lied, and then, to where he had a lack of candor which is you have information, you have a duty to disclose it and you fail to do so.
GOWDY: So, both lying affirmatively, and then, failing to tell the truth when you had an obligation to do so.
MACCALLUM: Yes. So, we don't know whether or not his name is going to be intertwined into the reports that are still to come out. The larger report from the Inspector General Michael Horowitz. And then, John Durham's report which is as an attorney -- state's attorney report that's coming up.
But Bill Barr who has seen more of these documents and you have seen more of them as well, I just want to remind everyone, said this about what's to come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, I think spying did occur.
Well, I'm not going to speculate about when it started. We were going to find out when it started. Some of the explanations I've gotten don't hang together. So, in a sense, I have more questions today than I did when I first started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: You said back in May, watch the e-mails between Brennan and Clapper, correct?
GOWDY: Right. Brennan and Comey. Yes, ma'am.
MACCALLUM: And Brennan and Comey, excuse me. Can you -- can you expand on that?
GOWDY: Well, I mean, we're in December of 2016. This is well off after the Russia investigation been launched by Peter Strzok in case anybody has forgotten that name. Well, after the first FISA, probably, after the renewal.
And here is Jim Comey conceding that the dossier is unverified, it's never been corroborated, and yet it's being used in court filings. And to my knowledge, the court was never told it was not corroborated.
So, but again, I think Bill Barr would tell you the same thing, Martha if he was on the show. There is a difference between doing a really lousy job. There's a difference between not meeting anyone's expectations for public service, and then, being indicted.
So, I will caution my Republican friends again. If the only thing that is going to satisfy you is the indictment of certain high-level officials, you may wind up being disappointed.
GOWDY: I have higher expectations for government than just narrowly avoiding indictment.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I hear you. And I think a lot of people in -- you know, in the intelligence area believe the same thing in terms of some of what happened here. So, we'll see -- we'll see we're close.
Trey Gowdy, always good to see you, sir. Thank you very much.
GOWDY: Yes ma'am. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, here now, Marc Thiessen, AEI scholar, and Fox News contributor. And Richard Goodstein, Democratic strategist and former adviser to Bill and Hillary Clinton's presidential campaigns. Good to have both of you with us this evening.
MARC THIESSEN, CONTRIBUTOR: Glad to be with you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Just quick reaction from each of you to that news about Andrew McCabe this evening. Marc?
THIESSEN: Yes, I mean, first of all, McCabe is trying to paint this as some sort of a political vendetta against him. It's not. I mean, the inspector general who found that he had lied three times at the FBI under oath, what is an Obama appointee.
He was accused of lying not just to them but to Jim Comey, who is not exactly a Trump ally. He was wrecked his firing -- was recommended by the head of the Office of Professional Responsibility at the Justice Department, who at the time was an Obama appointee, and the charges were recommended by career prosecutors. So, there's --
MACCALLUM: So, you say, it's been a very fair process and even-handed process for him. Richard, do you agree?
THIESSEN: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, I agree with Trey Gowdy that it should give a -- you know, the FBI and the Justice Department had been battered in their reputation, and should give us a little bit of confidence that maybe things are writing themselves.
MACCALLUM: Yes. OK. Quick thought, Richard, and I want to get some of this.
RICHARD GOODSTEIN, FORMER ADVISER, CLINTON CAMPAIGN: What's at about this is this process began 18 months ago when the grand jury was brought together to hear the evidence. 18 months ago, and the grand jury term expired. And they only brought them back this week. Why?
So, look, in this administration where we know there's hell to pay unless you support the guy at the top, and the guy at the top tweeted very nasty things about not just McCabe but his wife. So, why are we surprised that he was returning a fine one would basically kind of rubber stamp what he thinks the White House wants to get. We'll see what -- we'll --
MACCALLUM: Well, I mean, he put through an appeal. So, that's why it was back in the news because they had to -- they had to, you know, they had to make a decision on that appeal.
GOODSTEIN: One quick thing. Understand McCabe, McCabe is seen as a Clinton today. He green-lighted the FBI looking into the Clinton Foundation to (INAUDIBLE) weird.
MACCALLUM: Right, and that something that he leaked information about. He wants to make it very clear that he sees himself as an even-handed player there.
THIESSEN: That's what (INAUDIBLE). Yes.
MACCALLUM: I want to switch gears here and get -- see your thoughts on some of the politics with regard to impeachment. And let's put this up on the screen because it has been called a lot of things. An absolute disaster among them in terms of the effort that's going on right now on the House side.
This is from Dan Pfeiffer, former senior Obama advisor. Saying, "The politics of impeachment are debatable. Maybe they're good, maybe they aren't, no one knows. But I do know that the current Democratic strategy of telling the base that they are impeaching Trump and telling the moderates the opposite is an absolute disaster." Richard.
GOODSTEIN: Well, I don't know what the evidence is that it has says, I agree it's not perfect. What would be perfect would be to have, what we had during Watergate. A special committee evenly split with respected people on both sides.
And look, when the Nixon in the summer of 1973, before the Watergate hearings, 19 percent of the public thought that Nixon should be impeached. And after the Watergate hearings, and after the House impeachment hearings, that number ultimately went up to 55.
GOODSTEIN: So, that's what the Democrats I think, were trying to say.
MACCALLUM: So, you're in favor -- you want to see that hearing process move through.
GOODSTEIN: I think we need to get the evidence out not just about Russia and Mueller,, but everything else.
MACCALLUM: Well, Marc, you know, I mean, essentially, they -- you know, put together the panel to discuss whether or not the panel should go ahead and do an investigation.
MACCALLUM: It looks to me like they're -- you know, throwing some chum in the water to make some people happy to show that they're actually doing something at this point.
THIESSEN: Yes, my message to the Democrats is listen to Richard. Do what Richard says. Because it's the absolute worst thing you could possibly do for yourself. Look, the -- for years, we heard -- two years we heard from the Democrats that Donald Trump was a Russian agent and a traitor who had betrayed his country. And it turned out it was nothing but a conspiracy theory. He didn't do it.
And so, now, all -- and so, the American people took those charges seriously because they were very serious charges. And we spent in two years, tens of millions of dollars, and it turned out not to be true. So, keep going Democrats, keep investigating him.
MACCALLUM: All right, we got to leave it there. Thank you, gentlemen. Good to see you tonight.
MACCALLUM: Coming up next, an absolutely stunning moment in court today. In the trial of a former high school cheerleader accused of killing her newborn baby and burying her in the backyard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With regard to count one, we the jury in the above caption case find the defendant Brooke Skylar Richardson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We the jury find the defendant Brooke Skylar Richardson not guilty of child endangerment. It does say we further find the defendant did not cause serious physical harm to the alleged victim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Boy, high drama in that Ohio courtroom late today as a former high school cheerleader accused of killing her newborn baby and burying her in her parent's backyard, learned her fate in the courtroom. You could hear a pin drop in there this afternoon. Brooke Skylar Richardson faced life in prison.
Chief Breaking News Correspondent Trace Gallagher live now with the very latest on this story tonight. Trace?
TRACE GALLAGHER, CHIEF BREAKING NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Martha, when the jury of seven women, five men only deliberated four hours, legal experts largely predicted that Brooke Skylar Richardson, who goes by Skylar would be found not guilty of the most serious charges.
During the trial which lasted just under two weeks, prosecutors argued that Richardson didn't want the baby saying that she desperately tried to hide her pregnancy. And when the infant was born, she killed it, buried it and cleaned up the mess.
They also presented text messages that appeared to indicate the team was happy the baby was gone, and that she'd gotten her figure back saying that Skylar wrote, "My belly is back. Oh my God." Prosecutors told the jury, that belly was her child. That belly was her daughter.
And most notably, prosecutors also pointed out that during the second police interrogation, Skylar Richardson admitted that she killed and burned her baby. The defense argued that she was manipulated by detectives, and that because she has a personality disorder where she tries to please authority figures, she simply told them what they wanted to hear.
And the defense case was bolstered by the fact there was zero evidence, the remains of the baby had been burned. And medical examiners for both the prosecution and defense testified there was no physical proof the baby was alive. The defense argued that for a conviction, you must have proof of life beyond a reasonable doubt.
After the verdict, even prosecutors acknowledge that not having a cause of death or proof of life made for a very high bar. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID FORNSHELL, PROSECUTOR, WARREN COUNTY, OH: I think that unfortunately, that probably played a major factor in the outcome that we saw today. And as a result, I understand why the jury likely reach the result that it did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: On the flip side, Skylar Richardson's defense attorney say they believe the case was overcharged from the get-go. Watch them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES RITTGERS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's so juicy for the government to think that oh, not only did she murder her baby but she burned her baby, which tainted the whole jury pool, which is what we were worried about from the very beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: Richardson was found guilty of gross abuse of a corpse which could land her in jail for up to six months. But her defense attorneys and many legal experts believe the judge will set her free during sentencing on Friday morning. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Quite a moment in there today. It's unbelievable. Thank you very much, Trace. So next up, meet the parents who say their daughter nearly died from vaping, and one of the CEOs who makes these products and stands behind them.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: Vaping has become a very big business as I understand it, like a giant business in a very short period of time. But we can't allow people to get sick and we can't have our youth be so affected. Parents are going to be a lot tougher with respect to their children. A lot of people think vaping is wonderful. It's great. It's really not wonderful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: It's really not wonderful, says the president. After years of no smoking education and America, more and more kids are now essentially smoking again. But now instead of cigarettes, they're vaping, a smokeless form. They're also vaping THC or pot. In some cases people are dying from that is what a lot of folks looking at the situation believe.
So this map shows the states where people have died, six deaths so far. And in yellow are states where people have become ill or have been hospitalized from vaping. Adults, of course, want the right to vape as they please, and parents want to keep their kids safe and healthy.
In moments, we're going to talk to a CEO of a company that sells vaping device. He is more open to some regulation. But first, Tim and Ruby Johnson who got the scare of their lives when their daughter Piper nearly died, are here to share -- to share their story with us tonight.
Tim and Ruby, good to have both of you here with us tonight. I know that you, like so many of us, we're on the way, your daughter was heading off to college, you're driving her out to Colorado, and suddenly you notice that she's coughing and she has pain in her chest. What happened then?
RUBY JOHNSON, DAUGHTER HOSPITALIZED DUE TO VAPING: So she just -- it just declined pretty quickly. She mentioned that it hurt to take a deep breath, and she was super honest from the very beginning saying that she had been vaping. And so when we got to Colorado, I took her to an urgent care. She was been sent to an E.R., admitted to the hospital, transferred to the ICU.
And the best that they could tell at first, it looked like pneumonia, a diffuse pneumonia, they said, and she just -- but everything that they would do for pneumonia wasn't helping her and she just really declined. Her oxygen needs kept going up and up and she just got sicker and sicker until they figured out.
You know, they asked her, are you smoker? And when she said e-cigarettes, they kind of took notice of all the cases that were popping up and started treating her accordingly. So --
MACCALLUM: Terrifying. I mean, I can't imagine how scary this must have been. And she did -- she did -- Tim, she did admit. You said she was very honest with you, which was great, and all kids should be because that's the only way you can treat them and help them get better.
She did say that she had vaped THC. Did the doctors believe that was what led to this -- to this infection?
TIM JOHNSON, DAUGHTER HOSPITALIZED DUE TO VAPING: No.
T. JOHNSON: No.
MACCALLUM: What did they say?
T. JOHNSON: She was real honest with us from the start. She said that she had vaped to both e-cigarettes and THC, but the vast majority was e- cigarettes. And the doctors initially were confused because she was actually -- she was the first diagnosed case of this lung infection or this lung injury in the state of Colorado, so they were really scratching their heads at first.
R. JOHNSON: But our pulmonologist did say that so many of the chemicals in the e-cigarettes are severe lung irritants and just should not be inhaled. His exact words were fresh air, that's all you should be breathing. So there was the -- he felt that there was a huge potential for harm just from nicotine-containing e-cigarettes.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Tim, what's your message to these companies. I'm about to talk to one of the CEOs of one of the companies that that creates these devices.
T. JOHNSON: Well, Martha, they knew what they were doing from the time that we got tobacco really minimalized in the youth and they basically just borrowed old 60s and 70s, big tobacco marketing. They went into the schools, they made it cool, and they've gotten millions of teens and even younger than teens caught on nicotine.
So something needs to be done. And then we need to address the fact that we're going to have millions of kids addicted to nicotine.
MACCALLUM: Yes, because there's studies that show that a lot of kids rollover from this to cigarettes. And then as you say -- and it's unbelievable that we're back where we started with all of this. Tim and Ruby, thank you so much. And we wish Piper all the best in college, and we're glad that she is on the mend. Thank you very much for telling your story tonight.
T. JOHNSON: Thanks, Martha.
R. JOHNSON: Thank you so much, Martha.
T. JOHNSON: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: You bet. So Joining me now, Nick Kovacevich who is the CEO of KushCo Holdings, a company that sells vaping devices. Thank you. I appreciate you being here and you know, talking about this. It's obviously a controversial subject, Nick. What do you say to those parents who say that your -- companies like yours and others are trying to hook kids on smoking again?
NICK KOVACEVICH, CEO, KUSHCO HOLDINGS: Yes, so first of all, obviously, very scary situation there and worse for others. So we feel terrible, as does everyone in our industry. Now to be clear, our company only participates in the cannabis and CBD industry.
We sell vaping devices for companies that are in those channels. We have no affiliation with the nicotine and e-cigarettes which has had a prolific problem attracting teens to their devices. And that is something that our industry is learning from and hopefully is not going to repeat those same mistakes. We're off to a good start but this is a good refreshment.
MACCALLUM: But what about the fact that a lot of -- I'm sorry -- a lot of the kids use those devices, you know, as a way to use THC? And it doesn't smell like pot, you know, it smells very light in comparison. So I mean, do you feel responsibility for that?
KOVACEVICH: Well, here's the problem, right? It's the black market. This is how kids are getting access. So cannabis has done a great job of setting up legal frameworks in states where you can't even get past the security guard unless you show an I.D. that you're 21 years of age or older, right?
That's not the same for nicotine industry where you can walk into a 711 or convenience store, and you see the product right behind the counter. So we have a good start. Now we have to be consistent with that approach and we have to make sure that we're not targeting and marketing to minors. So --
MACCALLUM: But that's what's happening. And don't you think that in part, it could be happening because there's been so much legalization of pot across the country, and it's more and more acceptable. So why would it kid think it's a big deal to you know, use tobacco or THC in one of these devices?
And, you know, this family said that they didn't feel that that was the connection, but in other cases that I read about they do think that it was THC used in the vaping devices that is causing this chemical reaction that's has killed some people.
KOVACEVICH: Yes, it's been tracked to a lot of the illegal devices because they're not regulated. That's why we're calling for regulation. We're calling for more states to legalize. And actually there was a landmark study done earlier this year by four universities and it shows teen use is going down for cannabis only in states that have legalized, down eight or nine percent in those states.
So what we're seeing is an opposite effect. States that are legalizing and regulating and keeping kids away from cannabis are actually having more positive impact on the teen use statistics.
MACCALLUM: All right. That's a very interesting statistic.
KOVACEVICH: But the illegal vaporizers. They don't -- they don't check I.D. in the illegal market.
KOVACEVICH: The street dealers aren't checking for I.D. That's the biggest problem.
MACCALLUM: Well, from 20 --
MACCALLUM: -- 2017 to 2018, increase in vaping, 78 percent increase in current e-cigarette use among high school students.
KOVACEVICH: That's for nicotine.
MACCALLUM: Forty-eight percent -- for nicotine -- 48 percent among middle school students. That's alarming.
KOVACEVICH: Yes. That's terrible. And that's all for nicotine. Those are - - that's why the president is taking action, because those numbers are so alarming. And the cannabis industry is taking note.
MACCALLUM: But we would say -- would you say that THC is not safe for children? That they should not be vaping THC?
KOVACEVICH: Absolutely not. No adults under the age of 21 should be vaping any THC products or even consuming the THC products. And we are glad that the states that have implemented programs have really enforced that and they've upheld that age limit to a very high degree.
MACCALLUM: All right. Top trend in Washington is definitely in favor of some regulation here, so we'll see. And a lot of adults don't like, you know --
MACCALLUM: -- their rights infringed on either in some of these cases as well. so, I got to go.
KOVACEVICH: Well, the reality is the only way we are going to make progress is through regulation. We need to regulate this better.
MACCALLUM: Thanks, Nick. Good to have you here tonight.
KOVACEVICH: Thank you for having me.
MACCALLUM: Coming up next, why Joe Biden says young reporters are covering him unfairly. And Elizabeth Warren gets ready to roll out another program for America. She wants to expand Social Security even further.
The National Review Online, Deroy Murdock, and Biden campaign senior advisor, Symone Sanders are here tonight next.
MACCALLUM: So big debate tonight and Elizabeth Warren has been one to watch as she has moved up steadily coming alongside Joe Biden and also Bernie Sanders in some states and now, she is putting out there that she would like to broaden your Social Security benefits.
She announced, quote, "It's time Washington stopped trying to slash Social Security benefits for people who have earned them. It's time to expand Social Security."
Her plan would increase Social Security benefits by $200 a month and she would pay for that by raising taxes on the rich.
So here now, Deroy Murdock, National Review Online contributing editor and Fox News contributor. Deroy, great to have you here tonight.
DEROY MURDOCK, CONTRIBUTOR: It's great to be here.
MACCALLUM: The ever-expanding pot and, thank goodness all those rich people can just keep chipping into pay for it.
MURDOCK: That's right. You know, it's Christmas in September, evidently. Once again, Elizabeth Warren is busy giving away more stuff and I guess the idea is that the rich will just sit there and keep writing bigger and bigger checks, they're not going to send their money offshore or decide, you know, I'm going to retire rather than keep earning money.
I'm always amazed by these schemes by the left where they just assume that wealthy people are going to do their part and just keep writing bigger and bigger checks and handing over more money.
What we see is when taxes go up, people either stop producing as much, they engage in tax shelters, they move their money offshore. They retire, what have you. So, I think this is like so many of their ideas just another self-defeating concept.
MACCALLUM: So, what are you looking for here tonight in this debate? Joe Biden is going to be up there. Elizabeth Warren will be there as well. It's the first time they're going to be up there together on the stage. What do you think he has to do to make? We are about to speak with one of his senior advisors.
MURDOCK: Sure. Well, the main thing is to avoid gaffes. I mean, I don't know if he is capable of doing that, but every time he has one of these big appearances, odd things come out of his mouth. Sometimes they're just historically inaccurate, sometimes he seems to be stuttering and stammering and suffering as he's up on stage.
I think you can put together a poise performance and be smooth, that will go a long way, and then just more from a policy standpoint, it would be good to see him be the adult in the room and while everyone is busy giving way everything possible. Say, listen, I'm all for taking care for poor people and being passionate but this idea of getting multitrillion dollars further into debt with one giveaway and more debt forgiveness and so on and so on.
MACCALLUM: I think somebody say that. And we are going to talk to Symone about that in just a second. But one of our reporters who is out in the field covering the campaign said that it was her reporting says that he's going to lean into explaining that he has been a progressive for a very long time.
So, you know, I thought that was interesting and I'm going to ask her about that as well, but he doesn't seem to want to cede that ground and say, you know, I'm the adult in the room, as you put it.
MURDOCK: Yes. Well, what's interesting is that he is still doing as well in polls as he is. And I think a lot of it is that the people who are in the Democrat Party who are on Twitter, TV, the actors, they are very far left, there are still centrist Democrats out there.
They are interested in seeing Donald Trump return to the private sector. And if he speaks in a way that keeps them engaged, I think that even though people may scream and yell, you know, sort of in the commentary, that maintains that level of support out there for the people who will actually be voting in the primaries next --
MACCALLUM: So, President Trump folks flew a big banner on the back of an airplane against socialism over this used in debate site today. Obviously, you know, that's going to be his go to place, you know. Do you really want to transform the government of the United States into something completely different and potentially take away people's health insurance, as well.
MURDOCK: No. I think that's absolutely right and it would be one thing if the left were pushing all of these big giveaway programs if the economy were sinking and people are losing homes and losing their jobs. You know, we have record low black unemployment, record low minority employment and employment of Hispanics, people of Asian background.
We're on a couple hundred points of an all-time high on the Dow and the other markets.
So, for them to offer this at this time is I think a complete disconnect from what today's economic reality is.
MACCALLUM: Deroy Murdock, thank you.
MURDOCK: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Always good to see you. Thanks for coming in tonight. So, as I said, joining us now from the side of the Democratic debate tonight in Houston, Texas, Symone Sanders is a Biden 2020 campaign senior advisor. Symone, thank you very much. It's great to have you here this evening. Thanks for coming in.
SYMONE SANDERS, SENIOR ADVISOR, BIDEN CAMPAIGN 2020: Nice to be with you tonight.
MACCALLUM: You bet.
SANDERS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Exciting night for your candidate to be sure and one of the things that has been discussed in Politico this week is this suggestion that to president -- Vice President Biden's allies and his supporters, they feel that one of the reasons that he is getting so much attention on these gaffes is that the younger reporters are essentially not being fair to him, not hearing his whole message.
SANDERS: Well, look, Martha, I believe the underlying sentiment of that story is frankly something our campaign has said from the beginning. And is that, there is a press narrative out there and if sometimes that press narrative doesn't necessarily bear up with what we are seeing on the ground. And that's understandable.
You know, I don't think I've ever met a reporter that didn't ask for more access and I don't think I've ever met a campaign operative that didn't say they weren't being covered fairly.
So, this is -- this is something that's not new, but what we will say is tonight on the debate stage, you can expect Vice President Biden to distinguish himself on policy. And folks who are making a lot of hype about the fact that is going on stage with Elizabeth Warren --
SANDERS: -- and the stage has, quote, unquote, "shrunk" but I think there's 10 people out there. So, you can expect him to talk about policy and his distinct -- and the distinct differences between himself and the other folks on that stage on a policy note, not personal attacks.
MACCALLUM: You know, one of the things that strikes me and Deroy just mentioned it in terms of saying, you know, his advice would be that he needs to show that he's a grown up on that stage.
And then I thought it was interesting that some of the notes that came out in terms of direction for where he wants to go tonight weighed heavily on the side of, you know, he wants to make it clear that he's been a progressive since way back.
But there's another way to go and I'm going to be very curious watching tonight to see if he says you know what, I don't actually agree with these folks on either side of me on a lot of things because I think that's why he is higher in the polls than the others, because he does present a viewpoint that I think a lot of people, maybe not on the stage, but out in America, might connect with.
SANDERS: I mean, we would agree on the note that the vision that Vice President Biden has put forth for America is a vision that actually really does resonate with American people. Where we push back on folks out there not only in the media, but other campaigns.
They said Vice President Biden doesn't have bold visionary plans that he’s not reaching for the sky and he absolutely is. I don't think there's anything incrementalistic about addressing climate change, about fixing our economy. Nothing of the sort, and so you can expect him tonight to talk about his bold vision for all of those issues --
SANDERS: -- but also to talk about foreign policy. You know, climate change, the economy, these are also all foreign policy issues. America only accounts for 15 percent of the world's emissions so if we want to do something about climate change, we have to get the rest of the world involved.
MACCALLUM: All right.
SANDERS: And the only person on that stage tonight that has proven he could do that and is ready to do that, he or she can do that and is ready to do that on day one is Vice President Biden.
MACCALLUM: So, what about the concept of Medicare for all? He has said, you know, that he will allow people, the 170, 180 million Americans who have a health insurance policy already and most of them would like to keep it, to keep it.
Is that something where he would try to drive a moment and really draw a contract with other people on the stage who have said essentially that they want to take that away from 170, 180 million people?
SANDERS: You can expect Vice President Biden to give a forceful defense, if you will, of Obamacare, but also his own vision for how he builds on that success. There are real distinctions in this race when it comes to health care, for example. When it comes to plans on climate change.
Vice President Biden believes that there are some folks on that debate stage tonight that aren't being straight with the American people.
SANDERS: And we are going to talk about how you plan to play for your plan.
MACCALLUM: All right.
SANDERS: I mean, if people really are truly covered. so, I am expecting a very vigorous debate on policy tonight and you can expect health care will be a key component --
MACCALLUM: So, he's ready to go? He's ready to go?
SANDERS: -- on what comes out on that stage. He's ready to go.
MACCALLUM: All right.
SANDERS: We are going to talk policy, he's ready.
MACCALLUM: We will be watching. Thank you very much, Symone Sanders. Good to have you here tonight.
SANDERS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: You bet.
SANDERS: Thank you so much.
MACCALLUM: Come back soon. Coming up next, a star athlete forced to forfeit his scholarship and his degree because of NCAA rules banning college players from profiting off their name. What he thinks about California's push now to change the rules and the NCAA's last-ditch attempt to fight back.
MACCALLUM: So, college athletes may be one step closer to getting paid while they play in school. The California State Senate has just passed a bill allowing athletes to earn money from their name, image, or likeness through sponsorships or endorsements beginning in 2023. The bill now headed to Governor Gavin Newsom's desk. He has not said yet whether or not he supports it.
According to my next guest, this change has been a long time coming. He lost his division one football scholarship for making these YouTube videos using his own likeness to earn subscribers and ultimately some money from advertisements.
Donald de la Haye left the University of Central Florida division one football and he now plays on the team for the Toronto Argonauts in the Canadian Football League. Donald, great to have you here, thank you very much for being here tonight.
DONALD DE LA HAYE, FORMER NCAA FOOTBALL PLAYER: Thank you for having me.
MACCALLUM: So, what happened to you? Tell me what happened to you.
DE LA HAYE: So, I basically just love making videos all my life. I started making videos when I was 12 and that carried on into college and since I had a little bit of free time I found what not better hobby to have, and you know, continue making my videos and on practice and shoot videos and edit them and put them on YouTube and I started blowing up a bit.
And before I knew it, NCAA came through and were like, you can't do this, you're getting paid, you know, it's against the rules, so there might be some issues here.
MACCALLUM: So, you lost her scholarship and ended up leaving college.
DE LA HAYE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: Was that a hard decision for you --
DE LA HAYE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- to not get your college degree? And do you have any regrets about that?
DE LA HAYE: I mean it was extremely tough. I went back and forth. They kind of made me make the decision so I went back and forth for like a month. I cried some nights. I'm not even going to lie.
But you know, at the end of the day, I made the decision that was best for me and what I felt in my heart was right and I do not regret it one bit. I'm almost at two million subscribers now, living a great life, happy, you know. So, I don't regret it at all.
MACCALLUM: You know, I mean, you must've signed a deal, right, when you became a division one athlete and I would imagine that in that it said that you couldn't use your name or your likeness to make any money.
That basically, you know, like any contract in life, you were theirs, you know, for that time period.
DE LA HAYE: Yes
MACCALLUM: In exchange of her getting to go to college for free, right?
DE LA HAYE: Yes. But I feel like that was a little bit too much. Because if I was -- I mean, I'm studying marketing. So, as a marketing student I'm using the things that I learned, the tools I learned in class every single day --
DE LA HAYE: -- and applying them to my life and my business and basically it was illegal because I had a number on my back, you know.
MACCALLUM: So, what's the big dream before I let you go? What you want to be in your future, is a YouTube star or a football player ultimately?
DE LA HAYE: Honestly, I'm just living life. I feel like I have both avenues open right now.
DE LA HAYE: YouTube is going great. Football is going great.
DE LA HAYE: So.
MACCALLUM: All right. Well, good luck to you.
DE LA HAYE: I just want to be happy. You know.
MACCALLUM: Good luck to you, Donald, be happy and good luck on the field in Toronto as well. Thanks for being here. Good to talk to tonight.
DE LA HAYE: Thank you. I appreciate it.
MACCALLUM: You bet.
DE LA HAYE: Thanks for having me.
MACCALLUM: So, joining me now with thoughts on this, Jim Gray, Fox News contributor. Jim, good to see you tonight. What are your thoughts on what they're doing in California and do you think it's right?
JIM GRAY, CONTRIBUTOR: I do think it's right. I do think the state legislature in this instance does have it right.
I mean, come on, step into the 21st century, NCAA. It's these guys name and their likeness. It's them, they should be able to use this. They should be able to earn that money. They don't earn money from any of the other things that they are bringing in.
I mean, look at the institutions that are profiteering, the sneaker companies, the agents, the coaches. Everybody except for the people who are producing the product. Everybody else gets attention and they can't.
GRAY: And now they want to step in and say that this isn't right either.
MACCALLUM: No. I hear you. You know, they've got, they're selling jerseys --
GRAY: They need to move forward. It's wrong on the NCAA on all levels.
MACCALLUM: Jerseys with their names on the back and they don't get any money for it.
On the other side of the equation, though, is the maintaining the college spirit of athletics and perhaps there is a way to, you know, that the NCAA could say, look, we're going to put this money in an account for you, you have to say this, you can't spend it when you're in college, we want to invest in your future, do you agree with any kind of regulation like that?
GRAY: No, I really don't. I think they need to revamp the whole thing, because, look, come on, it's just time. These guys are bringing in billions of dollars and these gals where they generate some of the revenue. And I really don't. I think that it's long past due for there to be reforms for this.
And you said something there. These are not student athletes. These are athlete students. Predominately the people playing football and basketball on the men's side are there to pursue a professional career and since they're really not student athletes, they're not there to be college students, they are there to pursue their athletics and this is the system in place in that system needs to change.
MACCALLUM: All right.
GRAY: They need to be paid.
MACCALLUM: Let's talk Patriots before I let you go.
GRAY: All right.
MACCALLUM: Let's talk about the Antonio Brown decision. Now he's been accused of rape. I don't think that you think this whole thing was a good idea.
GRAY: Well, look at the way he behaved with the Raiders. It was reprehensible. It was awful on all levels. He should have been punished for his behavior there, not rewarded by going to the best team with the best quarterback, the place where they've won six championships over the past 20 years. It was wrong at all levels.
Now this accusation, it's an accusation. I think that before he should be placed on a suspended list or on the commissioner's exempt list, I think that it really needs to be investigated so it's not just a he said, she said.
It needs be thoroughly vetted out because if it's not, I don't know what happens -- only those to know what happened and now it's up to the commissioner and those investigators to find out exactly what happened.
But it runs the slippery slope of anybody accusing somebody of anything at any time and then you go on the suspended list, or the commissioner's exempt list and that's not a fair process, so there has to be a due process and a fair process here before he is put on that list.
MACCALLUM: So, for those who are not familiar with him, explain a little bit, Jim, about his history.
GRAY: He's a great player, he's a great wide receiver. He is dynamic, he set the NFL standard here at the wide receiver position. He is terrific when he's on the field. He can be a major disruption off the field.
He put on the Steelers at the end of last year when they needed him most, he ran a Facebook live chat and exposed his team when they were in the celebration on Coach Tomlin. He videotaped and audiotaped Jon Gruden, which is illegal in the State of California, and then released that on YouTube last week.
He arrived in a hot air balloon, it was full of hot air, his feet were burned from cryotherapy, so, you know, he went from both extremes, from the hottest of the hot to ice-cold in his behavior was just -- it was just abysmal.
GRAY: You know he had to change his helmet to comply with the new rules and he wouldn't change his helmet. Took to grievances. This guy did everything exactly wrong, wrong on all levels.
The Raiders did everything right and then he gets released of a $30 million guarantee, takes a $9 million guarantee and gives a possibly 15 to $21 million to go to the Patriots and they shouldn't have been permitted.
MACCALLUM: All right.
GRAY: The CVA (Ph) should change this so that this can't happen in the future.
MACCALLUM: I just have about 15 seconds left. But why --
GRAY: That's his story in a nutshell.
MACCALLUM: -- thank you. I appreciate that. And why would Bill Belichick hire him then given everything you just said?
GRAY: Because he's a great, great player and Bill Belichick has not figured out a way over the past nine or ten years to cover Antonio Brown when he was with the Steelers, so now he doesn't have to figure out how to cover him with another team.
MACCALLUM: If you can't beat them, join them.
GRAY: He can put him out on his own team. And when he's on the field he is great. It's all this other stuff that you have to tolerate and deal with.
MACCALLUM: All right. We'll be watching
GRAY: But he won't act like this with the Patriots if he's allowed to play.
MACCALLUM: We don't think so, we'll see. Jim Gray, thank you very much. More of “The Story” right after this. Stay with us.
MACCALLUM: So, make sure that you go on your phone and click the app and get "The Untold Story" podcast at foxnewspodcast.com, or wherever you listen. My interview with General James Mattis is live this week. Check it out.
Goodnight, everybody. We'll see you tomorrow.
Content and Programming Copyright 2019 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2019 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.