Dershowitz: 'Legal theory' supports election lawsuits but evidence is crucial
Harvard Law professor emeritus Alan Dershowitz gives his analysis on the state of election lawsuits on 'Sunday Morning Futures.'
This is a rush transcript from “Sunday Morning Futures” November 22, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Good Sunday morning. Welcome to "Sunday
Morning Futures." I'm Maria Bartiromo.
Down to the wire. President Trump's legal team presses on with charges of
voter fraud with exactly three weeks before the official state-by-state
election certification, and amidst demands of evidence from Democrats and
the media.
Today, no politics, just the law, with outside legal analysis on whether
Trump has a path to victory and the evidence to prove it in court.
Renowned attorney Alan Dershowitz is here on the evidence, the charges, and
the Supreme Court.
Plus: the only other race that matters right now, razor-thin margins in two
Senate run-off races in Georgia that will dictate policy for America for
years to come. The man leading the recount in Georgia, Congressman Doug
Collins, on the back-and-forth recount on what it means for the Senate
races on January 5, as outside money pores into Georgia, and some Democrats
threaten to move there to affect the election.
Also, the wins keep on coming. Fresh off of his own victory in California,
the new face of the House Republicans and the man staring down the
speaker's gavel in 2022 midterm elections, GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy is
here, as he sits atop a larger and more diverse membership.
Plus, the ranking member of the GOP Intelligence Committee on the crimes
that will not go away, no matter who is president, Congressman Devin Nunes
on the whereabouts of John Durham and Bill Barr on a case that is still
pending for the former leadership of the FBI.
It's all coming up right here, right now, as we look ahead on "Sunday
Morning Futures."
And first this morning, Congressman Kevin McCarthy was unanimously
reelected as leader of the House Republicans this week, after the GOP
flipped 12 seats and diversified victories for incoming women, veterans and
minorities, these wins putting him on track to retake both the majority and
the speaker's gavel in 2022, something he says will likely happen.
Leader McCarthy joins me right now.
Congratulations, Congressman, and good morning to you.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Good morning, Maria. And thanks for having us
back.
BARTIROMO: So, first, assess the situation for us after 12 flipped seats.
What does the new face of the House Republicans look like?
MCCARTHY: Well, the face looks very tremendous.
I mean, we have had more women than at any time serving in Congress. The
Republican Party really had made great gains. Not only did we flip 12.
There are four more races out there, and we're ahead in all four of them.
So, I'd expect, as the week progresses, that we will end up somewhere
around 212, 213 seats. And it only takes 218 for a majority.
This will be the closest of a majority that at any time since World War II.
And, really, nobody saw this coming. The American people have now rejected
Nancy Pelosi and the Democrat socialist policies.
The next two years are going to be about the Republican commitment vs. the
Democrats' agenda.
BARTIROMO: So, how does that play out in real time then? Tell me about
what that gives you as a party in terms of potential votes, in terms of
actually impacting policy that will impact the rest of us?
MCCARTHY: Well, when we talk about policy, another reason why the
Democrats lost, their agenda to defunding the police just didn't play,
where the Republicans had a Commitment to America, to make our streets
safe, to defeat this virus, to rebuild our infrastructure, to end our
dependency on the China infrastructure.
That's the agenda we will move forward. And we will be looking to get five
to six more Democrats to join with us, and then we will be able to run the
floor. That's the difference. We have a commitment. Theirs has a simple
agenda that defunds the police, discredits and just -- the American public.
And I just don't see that that sells going forward, this socialist agenda.
BARTIROMO: So, tell me about what this means for your potential of
becoming the speaker in 2022.
First of all, Nancy Pelosi has said repeatedly over these last couple of
weeks that they have a mandate. Do you believe there is a mandate? And,
Congressman, have you spoken with Speaker Pelosi?
MCCARTHY: Well, there is no mandate.
If there's a mandate, the American public has rejected the socialist agenda
and defunding of the police. Remember, we are five seats away from winning
the majority.
But what you will find at the end of the day is, there are 18 Democrats who
have won reelection with 52 percent of the vote or less. I believe, at the
end of the day, we will gain the majority next time, and we could actually
run the floor this time through our Commitment to America.
I have not spoken to the speaker. I have called her and left her a message.
I have spoken to the majority leader numerous times. And this is the real
problem. Here we have a COVID challenge out inside this country.
Nancy Pelosi, for the last six months, has said, it's better to do nothing
than something. Her own members lost over her policies. There were 23
Democrats who have signed a letter back in September who said, if Nancy
Pelosi would not come to an agreement, that they would cite a discharge
petition.
And what that means to your viewers is, we could actually bring legislation
to the floor around Nancy Pelosi. That would be the PPP for the small
business. Those people who are employed by small businesses can get paid,
because there's $138 billion just sitting there.
So, instead of Nancy Pelosi holding everything up, just as she won't let it
go through the American public, she doesn't want to talk about coming to an
agreement, something that would be stronger for the American public, the
Democrats have just lost in this election.
And the Republicans, come January, have the momentum to actually run the
floor, because our ideas are stronger and reflect the American public's
views.
BARTIROMO: Well, we're going to talk about that, because now there's a lot
of worry about voter fraud, as you know. And there will likely be another
recount in Georgia.
If we were to see voter fraud and then the Democrats take the Senate,
you're going to see a very different policy agenda than the Republicans
being in charge, right?
MCCARTHY: Yes, a very big challenge here, what's happening in Georgia.
Everybody should be paying attention.
And to watch the Democrats publicly say they want to cheat, that they want
to move into the state just to vote to determine an outcome, that should
not be allowed.
What else we should find is, all these irregular activities that have
happened in this election, we should correct and not allow this to move
forward. Every voice should be heard. Every vote should be counted. Every
recount should be verified. And every legal challenge has a right to be
heard.
We have done this for 200 years. Why would we stop now?
BARTIROMO: Yes.
MCCARTHY: And you have two U.S. Senate seats, and you have the Senate
majority in peril right now on this election that is coming up January 5.
This is where the focus should be. And we should be able to win those two
seats, because what would that mean? Socialized medicine would end.
Defunding the police would not move forward. Chuck Schumer, when he's
screaming there, we have Georgia, then we control the world, or change the
world, that is really what is at play right here for the next few weeks.
BARTIROMO: Yes, he said, we take Georgia and then we change America. And I
know that that would also lead to the world as well.
But, Congressman, I want to go back to two things that you said. First of
all, you haven't spoken to Nancy Pelosi, I understand, in several months.
Has it been a year that you haven't had a straight-on conversation with
Nancy Pelosi?
MCCARTHY: No, I have talked to her within the year.
But -- and this is a real challenge. I have called her after the election.
The majority leader called and congratulated me on the victories. And we
have talked about the agenda moving forward, Steny Hoyer and I. And that's
what you need to have inside Congress.
When the elections are over, you're going to have to find a way that you
move forward. We have different philosophies, and we're going to keep those
philosophies, but we're going to find a way that we can work for the
American public.
The speaker, just as she said in the past, that doing nothing is better
than something, the only challenge that is being held up for those who are
unemployed, for those small business workers who need the money, who have a
dream that they find that could end if they don't have resources and help,
is really stuck with Nancy Pelosi.
All the other times, we have been able to do a CARES Act and others. But
the speaker wants to put that socialist agenda her way or no way. And she
has said it time and again. That's become a real challenge. But I believe,
in this last election, they rejected that view. They rejected the view of
Nancy Pelosi.
BARTIROMO: Right.
MCCARTHY: And, remember, she still needs 218 votes on the floor. And there
are 10 Democrats who got reelected who did not vote for her last time.
BARTIROMO: Right.
MCCARTHY: So, if 10 Democrats, the same 10, vote against her, she will not
be speaker.
BARTIROMO: So, real quick on the COVID relief.
Do you expect anything this year during the lame-duck session? Should we
expect more stimulus coming?
MCCARTHY: Well, the American public should expect it out of their elected
officials.
There are 23 Democrats who signed a letter in September who said they would
sign the discharge petition if they had no recourse with Nancy's actions.
Well, now is the time. I'm right here in D.C. today. If they signed it, we
could get it out in one day. That's the difference.
We are ready to act, willing to act, and willing to work with anybody. We
just have a speaker who believes nothing is more important than something.
BARTIROMO: All right, we will leave it there.
Congressman, it's good to see you this morning. Of course, we will be
following it and watching you throughout.
Congressman Kevin McCarthy, we will see you soon, sir. Thank you.
MCCARTHY: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Coming up, we're going to take a look at this election, of
course, the media declaring Joe Biden president-elect. Is it still possible
for Donald Trump to turn the 2020 election around in court, as his legal
team says?
Constitutional scholar Alan Dershowitz is here. He will weigh in on the
evidence after this short break.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
President Trump's legal team has just three weeks left to gather enough
evidence of fraud to contest the 2020 election results in court, something
Sidney Powell, one of the lead attorneys on the case, says she can do.
Here is what she told me this week on "Mornings With Maria" on Friday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Will you be able to present, are you planning to present actual
evidence of all that you have said, Dominion voting machines swapping votes
from Trump to Biden, as well as an effort to actually change the results of
an election? You will be able to prove that in court in the next two weeks?
SIDNEY POWELL, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yes, I fully expect we will
be able to prove all of it in court within the next two weeks, although the
fraud case itself doesn't have to be done within the two weeks.
But we have more than enough evidence now. We have more evidence now than
half the prison population is imprisoned on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Joining me right now, outside legal analysis from
constitutional legal scholar Alan Dershowitz. He was also part of President
Trump's impeachment defense team.
Alan, it is good to see you this morning. Thank you so much for being here.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Alan, we want to get your independent opinions here, because we
know what Rudy Giuliani and what Sidney Powell has been charging.
Can you tell us if you believe there is a path for victory for President
Trump, amidst these charges?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, let me give you my completely objective, not wishful
thinking, constitutional analysis.
They have two or three legal constitutional paths. For example, in
Pennsylvania, they have two very strong legal arguments, one, that the
courts changed what the legislature did about counting ballots after the
end of Election Day.
That's a winning issue in the Supreme Court. I don't necessarily support
it, but it's a winning issue in the Supreme Court. And Justice Alito has
already hinted that's a winning issue.
They also have a winning issue on the Supreme Court on equal protection,
that some counties allowed flawed ballots to be cured, while others didn't.
Bush vs. Gore suggests that an equal protection argument can prevail.
The problem with that argument is, they don't have the numbers necessarily
to support it. If it's right that Biden is ahead by some 70,000 or 80,000
votes, they have to show enough contested votes, under those two legal
theories, to change the outcome.
The other legal theory they had, which is a potentially strong one, is that
the computers, either fraudulently or by glitches, changed hundreds of
thousands of votes. There, there are enough votes to make a difference, but
I haven't seen the evidence to support that.
So, in one case, they don't have the numbers. In another case, they don't
seem yet to have the evidence. Maybe they do. I haven't seen it. But the
legal theory is there to support them if they have the numbers and they
have the evidence.
BARTIROMO: OK.
And, of course, the media wants to see the evidence now, Alan.
DERSHOWITZ: Right.
BARTIROMO: But Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis continue to
say that they aren't going to litigate this in the public square, in the
media space. They are going to drop lawsuits.
Now, I -- one of my sources tells me that one of the first suits that they
are going to bring is this week in Georgia. Let me show you a list of some
of the things that the legal team of President Trump is charging and get
your thoughts on this.
DERSHOWITZ: Sure.
BARTIROMO: You just mentioned the computers.
This is -- has to do with Smartmatic election software. They say, number
one, observers prevented them from seeing the ballots. Number two, there's
inconsistent laws of curing ballots. Number three, the in person voters
told that they voted already and officials told not to look for defects and
to backdate ballots before November 3.
Also, in terms of the computers and the software, Smartmatic election
software was developed, Sidney Powell says, in Venezuela, with porous
security and built-in functionality allowing the administrators to override
security features.
We haven't seen this, so we don't know. But this is the kind of evidence
that they say they have. Your reaction?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, evidence is very difficult to bring within two weeks or
the three-week period. You need to have witnesses, experts subject to
cross-examination, and findings by a court.
I don't know what Powell means when she says they have more than two weeks
or three weeks to prove fraud. Once the electors are certified, and once
they cast their vote, I can't see any legal route to undoing that, even if
they were to find fraud later on.
There's certainly nothing in the Constitution about that. And so I think
they do have to get their evidence in. The public has the right to see it.
They don't have the right to see it before the lawsuits are filed.
But she said that she thinks the lawsuits will be filed by this Friday. We
have to see the evidence.
BARTIROMO: That's right.
DERSHOWITZ: If the evidence is there, then there will be a trial.
Remember also, these have to go to state court first. There's no such thing
as a presidential election. There are 50 state elections. The Pennsylvania
case is already in the Supreme Court. But these other cases have to go
first through either the state or the federal trial courts before they get
to the Supreme Court.
It doesn't look like there will be enough time to bring the case to the
Supreme Court before the safe harbor provision kicks in, before the
Electoral College meets.
BARTIROMO: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: So, if you're asking me what I think the outcome is going to
be, notwithstanding the fact that there are legal paths to potential
victory, I don't think that the election is going to be reversed, based on
the numbers that I see at the moment and based on the fact that I haven't
seen the evidence.
Their strongest case, if they have the evidence...
BARTIROMO: Yes.
DERSHOWITZ: ... is that computers may have turned hundreds of thousands of
votes. That's a wholesale argument, rather than a retail argument.
BARTIROMO: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: They can't turn the election around on retail arguments, one
observer here, a few votes here.
BARTIROMO: Right.
DERSHOWITZ: They need to make wholesale constitutional arguments.
And for that, they're going to need overwhelming evidence, and I haven't
seen it.
BARTIROMO: Alan, stay with us.
I want to take a short break. I want to take a look at what the road to the
Supreme Court looks like. You just laid out some of it, but stay with us on
that.
We're talking with Alan Dershowitz this morning on the road ahead.
Back in a moment on "Sunday Morning Futures."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: And we're back with constitutionalist and legal scholar Alan
Dershowitz.
And, Alan, we are talking about the road ahead.
I want to get your take on one of the things that President Trump has
brought up many times and that his legal team continues to push forth. And
that is that Republicans were not allowed to watch vote counting in Detroit
and Philadelphia.
How significant is this to their case, Alan?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, they have to show that it affected numbers that are
greater than the margin of victory.
Look, their route to the Supreme Court of the United States is rather easy
in Pennsylvania, because the court has already taken that case. They split
4-4. And then Justice Alito issued an order.
The problem in Pennsylvania is, they have the law maybe on their side, but
they don't seem to have the numbers. The poll-watching thing is a retail
matter. You're going to have to go through each county, take evidence. Did
the poll-watchers get excluded? How many votes were impacted?
That's going to be a very hard case to get to the Supreme Court, because it
has to go to the state court first. It then has to go to probably the
federal courts, and then the Supreme Court. I don't think they are going to
be able to do this in a timely fashion.
So, they have the law on their side in some places, not the numbers. They
may have arguments, but not the evidence. And they're not going to win on
retail challenges here and there.
BARTIROMO: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: Their only -- the only chance they have of winning -- and it's
a perfect storm, and it's very unlikely to happen -- is if they can show
retail, wholesale, constitutional arguments that affect a large number of
voters, sufficient to be greater than the margin of victory.
I don't think they're there. I don't think they can make that case.
BARTIROMO: And...
DERSHOWITZ: The Supreme Court is not going to take the case to give them a
Pyrrhic victory.
They are not going to take the case to say, you're right on the law, even
though the numbers aren't there to give you a victory. To get the case to
the Supreme Court...
BARTIROMO: Sure.
DERSHOWITZ: ... they are going to have to show that, if the Supreme Court
rules in their favor, as the Supreme Court did in Bush vs. Gore, where
there were only 600 votes separating them in one state, in Florida, the
Supreme Court will take that case.
BARTIROMO: Right.
DERSHOWITZ: But it's not going to take a case to give them a hypothetical
Pyrrhic victory.
BARTIROMO: Of course.
DERSHOWITZ: They will only take the case if, by turning around the law, it
will give them enough facts and votes to turn around enough electoral votes
to deny Biden the 270...
BARTIROMO: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: ... or, much less likely, give Trump the 270.
Remember, if Biden is denied the 270...
BARTIROMO: And how does this -- how does this move through Congress?
DERSHOWITZ: ... then the case immediately goes to the House of
Representatives, where there's a Republican majority.
BARTIROMO: OK. Good.
DERSHOWITZ: But that's very hard, because, if certain votes are not
certified -- this is very technical. If certain votes aren't certified,
then the number needed to reach a majority goes lower than 270.
If, for example, 20 votes in Pennsylvania just aren't certified, then the
number to reach a majority is less than 270. It becomes 250 or something
like that.
So, it's very, very uphill. You -- they would need a perfect storm. And if
you're betting widows and orphans' money, if you're betting money you can't
afford to lose, you have to bet that the outcome of the election will not
be reversed.
BARTIROMO: Alan, we want our viewers to know that a spokesperson for
Dominion will be on FOX News today at 12:00 p.m. Eastern.
I want you to hear what the company's CEO, the Dominion CEO, John Poulos,
told Congress about backdoors in the Dominion machines during his House
testimony back in January of 2020. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN POULOS, CEO, DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS: I do want to draw a caveat.
Some of our tabulators have the -- are designed around the ability to have
an external plug-in modem to transmit unofficial results after polls close.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: An unofficial plug-in.
Last Sunday on this program, Sidney Powell, who is leading the
investigation into Dominion, told us how this makes the Dominion voting
machines vulnerable. Here is Powell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POWELL: They can stick a thumb drive in the machine or upload software to
it, even from the Internet.
They can do it from Germany or Venezuela even. They can remote-access
anything. They can watch votes in real time. They can shift votes in real
time. We have identified mathematically the exact algorithm they used and
planned to use from the beginning to modify the votes, in this case, to
make sure Biden won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Now, unfortunately, Dominion is not making their CEO available
today. A spokesperson will be on FOX at noon. So, I hope you will watch it.
And here are the questions that that spokesperson needs to answer.
Do Dominion voting machines have the ability to fractionalize or weight a
vote? Do Dominion voting machines have exposed USB ports or memory slots?
Is it on the Internet? Did poll workers use cards or codes to enter voters
into the voting machines to vote? Are your systems capable of counting
votes without properly identifying the voter? When were Dominion voting
machines last certified? Did Dominion acquire Smartmatic and its software
from Sequoia?
Alan Dershowitz, your reaction and what you think is most important for
Dominion to address?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, there are two issues here.
One, was there the potential with Dominion for abuse and for turning votes
from one candidate to the other? Was there the potential? The second, did
it happen?
And the issue that the courts are going to have to confront is the second
one. Did it happen?
And Dominion and others will have to be subject to cross-examination. It's
said that cross-examination is the greatest engine of truth ever designed.
We need to have cross-examination. We need to take evidence.
This election can't be determined based on hypotheticals or possibilities
or potentials. It has to be decided based on what actually happened. For
that, you need a trial, not in front of a jury. This is not for damages.
It's for injunctive relief, so in front of a judge.
BARTIROMO: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: But the evidence has to be put before a judge.
So far, the judges have been very skeptical, because they haven't seen the
evidence.
BARTIROMO: Right.
DERSHOWITZ: And it's time for the Trump team to put up. They have to come
up with the evidence.
BARTIROMO: Absolutely.
DERSHOWITZ: Maybe they won't show it to the media.
BARTIROMO: Right.
DERSHOWITZ: But let them go to court before Friday. There's no reason why
they can't put some of this evidence in Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
BARTIROMO: Agreed. We all want to see -- that's right.
DERSHOWITZ: Let the public see it. Let the court see it.
BARTIROMO: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: Let's decide whether there was merely a potential for abuse or
real abuse.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
DERSHOWITZ: The American public is entitled to know that and to resolve
this election once and for all.
BARTIROMO: Absolutely. We all want clarity. And we all want to see this
evidence.
Alan, before you go, I have got to ask you about these recriminations
against any lawyers who are working for President Trump. It's absolutely
outrageous, what we have seen, where some law firms are bullying other law
firms, telling them not to work with President Trump, a sitting president.
You, yourself, in some ways, are getting bullied, because Harvard -- you
see what Harvard is doing. You are Harvard emeritus professor. And now
they're saying anyone who helped Trump will not be able to speak at
Harvard, will not be able to go back to Harvard.
You have assembled lawyers because of this. Tell me what you're doing.
DERSHOWITZ: Well, it's pure McCarthyism.
There are a group of bullying students at Harvard who have said they want
to put people who have worked for President Trump, whether they have been
in the administration or people like me who have made the argument on the
floor of the Senate against impeachment, basically subject us to
reeducation camps like in communist China or the former apartheid Africa.
And they won't let us appear or speak on campus or teach students or make
lectures unless we kind of confess our guilt. It's pure McCarthyism. And
I'm putting together a legal team to pro bono represent anybody who is
denied their First Amendment rights to speak on the campus or the rights of
the students to hear speeches on campus.
There was a petition to try to takeaway my emeritus status because I
defended the presidency against impeachment. If I were a member of a big
law firm, and I had agreed to represent President Trump, I would have
gotten all kind of pressure. Fortunately, I'm independent. The only person
I have to listen to is my wife, who basically told me not to do it, but we
agreed that I would do it in the end.
But the pressures are enormous.
BARTIROMO: Unbelievable.
DERSHOWITZ: And the McCarthyism that we see today on university campuses
is so reminiscent of what I went through in the 1950s.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
DERSHOWITZ: I was a virulent anti-communist in the '50s.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
DERSHOWITZ: But I defended the right of teachers to have different views
from my own.
BARTIROMO: Alan, it's...
DERSHOWITZ: And that made for good education.
BARTIROMO: And, by the way...
DERSHOWITZ: Today, at Harvard and other universities -- and it's going to
spread from Harvard...
BARTIROMO: ... everybody wants to see diversity.
DERSHOWITZ: There are efforts to stop this diversity.
BARTIROMO: Of course. Everybody wants to see diversity in universities.
DERSHOWITZ: They don't want diversity points of view on the campus.
BARTIROMO: It's absolutely unbelievable. And you have got AOC...
DERSHOWITZ: It's not what a university should be doing.
BARTIROMO: That's right.
DERSHOWITZ: And I think Harvard won't do it.
But, if they do it, they will be challenged, and I will be suing them in
court under the Massachusetts civil rights law, if they dare to stop Trump
supporters or other people from speaking on the campus. That's just totally
McCarthyism and wrong.
BARTIROMO: OK.
Well, you also have AOC with her Trump accountability project, like the
Gestapo. I mean, it's absolutely outrageous.
Alan Dershowitz, thank you for your independent analysis. We so appreciate
it.
Check out Alan's podcast, "The Dershow," wildly popular podcast. You have
got to hear it.
Alan, we will see you soon. Thank you.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DAVID PERDUE (R-GA): We heard Schumer just last week say that, if we
take Georgia, we change America. We heard AOC say, we -- they have to have
these two seats because they don't want to negotiate. They want total
control.
And so what's at stake is this, is that Schumer will change the rules in
the Senate, so they can do anything they want with 50 votes, plus the vice
president's vote as a tie-breaker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: That was Georgia Senator David Perdue on this program last
week, explaining why the fate of U.S. policy hinges on both his and Senator
Kelly Loeffler's run-off races in the upcoming race on January 5.
Meanwhile, President Trump's attorneys have requested a second Georgia
recount, just one day after state officials certified Joe Biden's win
there.
Here now to talk about all of this is Congressman Doug Collins. He is
leading the recount efforts in Georgia.
And, Congressman, it's always a pleasure to see you. Good morning to you.
REP. DOUG COLLINS (R-GA): Good morning, Maria.
BARTIROMO: First, tell me what you found as you oversaw the recount in
Georgia, and your reaction to now Governor Kemp saying, oh, there should be
an even -- another recount, because they did not match the signatures.
What's going on in Georgia?
COLLINS: Well, number one, it's been good to go through this process. I
think sunlight on this process is a great disinfectant.
We found several things. If we -- one, if we had never asked for this and
the Trump team had never asked for this recount by hand that we just got
through, there would have been a lot of folks disenfranchised, because we
found four counties in which votes were not even counted.
We found out issues of the signature verification match. I'm glad to see
the governor is now speaking up about this. We wrote a letter about 10 --
over 10 days ago about this asking. I'm glad to see that he weighed in on
that, because that is an issue we are going to have to address here in
Georgia.
But, also, we found out the secretary of state office did not give clear
guidance to the different counties, 159 counties in Georgia, on how to set
the machines when they were actually making their final count.
We found a lot of things that say that we need to continue to look into
this. But what we did find, and the legal team -- this is transitioning
from me, away from the recount, down to more of the legal challenges that
you have been talking about this morning.
What we have got to remember is, is, this has highlighted the issues. We're
hoping that this will make sure that people do turn out to vote, because,
here in Georgia, we have got that election that you just talked about
that's going to be so important.
BARTIROMO: So, I think what you just said, we need to underline for a
moment.
You're saying, if people feel like their vote does not matter because there
was fraud or irregularities, whatever you want to call it, then maybe they
won't come out on January 5. And if they don't come out, then, yes, the
Republicans certainly should worry about the run-off elections, because
then the Democrats will win. Is that what you're saying?
COLLINS: Exactly.
We have got to make sure -- look, we're doing everything we can to make
sure we hold the elections process accountable in Georgia, from the
secretary of state's office to each individual election office that we have
in this state. They have got to make sure that people believe that a
transparent, orderly process is taking place.
But I will also say this to the voters in Georgia in particular, because
you do hold a unique responsibility here. David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler
need to be reelected, no ifs, ands and buts about it.
They have got to be elected to these seats, because we do not want Chuck
Schumer. You and I have been fighting for so many years and I'm going to
continue to fight to expose what we found in the last four years, as they
attacked unmercifully this president on Russia collusion hoax, the Steele
dossier, the Mueller investigation.
And now, with John Durham, they're hopefully going to start doing
something. But if they give this to control of Chuck Schumer, those
investigations go away.
So, the voters in Georgia, the conservative Republicans, you have got to
show back up and vote any way you can and make sure that we send these two
back to the Senate.
BARTIROMO: OK.
Congressman, let me just tell our audience that Senator Kelly Loeffler was
supposed to be on this program this morning. Unfortunately, she is not on
because there was an inconclusive COVID test. So, that is why she is not
here.
Do you believe that's going to impact her ability to campaign? That's one
issue.
And the other issue that I want to get your take on is what Stacey Abrams
has said, Congressman, because Stacey Abrams, who has taken credit for
delivering the Georgia victory for Joe Biden, now says she already has
registered 600,000 votes by mail. These are mail-in ballots. She says you
don't need an I.D. to vote by mail. And she's got 600,000 of them already.
Are we looking at another fight with these Senate races and questions about
a safe and secure election even before the vote takes place?
COLLINS: Look, I -- one thing, I wish Senator Loeffler the best, if she
tests positive. I know she is going to get another test. She will do well.
She will campaign as she needs to. And I'm looking forward to making sure
that she will be able to -- she will do that through the TV. She will do
that through appearances hopefully through Skype and others, but if she is
-- we want to get her better first.
But then let's turn our attention to Stacey Abrams. I'm about tired of
Stacey Abrams. I'm about tired of the false claims down here in Georgia of
voter suppression. I'm tired of the claims that she didn't win in the other
governor's race, and now making claims of absentee ballots.
What she's doing is, again, trying to focus on getting people to do
absentee ballots. And, again, her organization in the Democratic Party were
the very ones who sued the state of Georgia and Brad Raffensperger and the
other -- the attorney general and the others who signed the consent decree
last year that, in our opinion, weakened the signature verification rules
in the state of Georgia.
This is one of the things the governor mentioned. It's one of the things we
have mentioned. That is why it makes it so more important that we have to
fight back down here in Georgia.
Look, people get out and run for election. They do the ground game. They do
what they need to do. And Senator Loeffler and Senator Perdue are going to
do that.
But Stacey Abrams needs to remember, if she's actually encouraging people
to vote illegally, if she's actually encouraging, as Andrew Yang and some,
said to come to Georgia and register to vote, as if you're going to stay in
Georgia, that's a felony in Georgia.
And I look forward to our law enforcement officers, if they come down here
and do that, putting them in jail. It's illegal to come in, in the state of
Georgia and register with no intent to become a permanent resident in
Georgia.
Stacey Abrams made a lot of claims over time, mainly for her own political
benefit. It's about time that those stop, because the elections in Georgia
are about the people of Georgia, and not about wild claims that she's made
on whose she's getting to vote.
BARTIROMO: Are you comfortable that you have the wherewithal and the
infrastructure to police all of this?
Look, we expected that there would be irregularities going into the
presidential election. And now we're learning that the observers couldn't
get close enough to actually see what was going on. Why wasn't that policed
in the beginning?
And now you have got -- Stacey Abrams never even conceded for her
governor's race, and the media celebrated it. And you're talking about
Andrew Yang tweeting out a week ago, my wife and I are moving to Georgia.
Do you have the infrastructure in place to ensure that you will be able to
see accountability if people just move to Georgia to affect this race?
COLLINS: I do believe we will, because we have been pitching -- throw
these out there.
We have been fighting hard for this president, fighting hard during this
recount, which is now transitioning to the legal phase of. But we have made
enough emphasis here. The governor pointed this out. Others have pointed it
out.
I think the election board is on notice. The secretary of state's office is
on notice. The attorney general is on notice, because he talked about this.
Again, we're fighting back with everything.
But it's going to take conservatives. Remember, Maria, you mentioned this
before. We talked about it. Georgians need to realize, the reason the
Democrats are flooding the state of Georgia or even outside money is
flooding into Georgia right now is because they want Chuck Schumer to
fundamentally change the Senate.
They want, fundamentally, to take away the investigative powers of Ron
Johnson and Lindsey Graham and others into the things that we know have
been happening. They do not want big tech oversight. They do not want these
things that are actually happening.
That's why Georgia is so important. And we do believe that we're going to
have our folks turn out. We're seeing it. It's tough right now, because
they are wanting to look forward and make sure the president stays.
BARTIROMO: OK.
COLLINS: But we are going to see it happen.
BARTIROMO: Congressman, it's good to see you this morning. We will be
watching.
Thank you so much, Congressman Doug Collins, this morning in Georgia.
COLLINS: Thanks, Maria. Take care.
BARTIROMO: Coming up: the congressman who President Trump famously called
the other side's worst nightmare.
And he's here with breaking news on John Durham's criminal investigation.
Will there finally be accountability?
Right after this short break. Stay with us for Congressman Devin Nunes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Former President Barack Obama is out promoting his new memoir, in which he
boasts about his White House avoiding scandal, without exception, he
writes, writing that he had zero tolerance for ethical lapses and that
people who had a problem with that didn't join us in the first place, said
President Obama.
My next guest spent the last four years investigating the role that Obama's
FBI and CIA played in the Russian collusion hoax, where the entire country
was up in arms.
Devin Nunes is the ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee. He
is author of the book "Countdown to Socialism."
Congressman, it is good to see you.
REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): Always a pleasure.
BARTIROMO: Thank you for joining us.
NUNES: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: I want to get your reaction to President Obama saying that
there were no ethical lapses in his administration. And then I want to get
your take on where we are with those investigations you have been doing for
the last four years.
NUNES: Well, sure. And good morning to you, Maria.
I would just point out to your viewers that President Obama is the only
president that I know that only moved about a mile from the White House,
set up shop, has all of his people there. Most of his people were promoting
Kamala Harris to run, before she bombed out, wasting millions of dollars,
hundreds of millions of dollars. And then they propped up Joe Biden.
So, it's not just about how this is the first president that oversaw using
a political campaign, using the FBI and DOJ to open an investigation into
your rival campaign. That's as big of a fraud as you get in the history of
the United States of America.
So, he's not giving up power. He investigated his opposing party. He
allowed it to happen. If he was so high and mighty and aboveboard, he
should have told Clinton, Comey, McCabe, Brennan, all of them, no, we're
not doing this. You have no evidence that Trump is some type of Russian
agent. Stop it.
He didn't do it. And here we're left with this aftermath of four years of
this nonsense. And now we're sitting, waiting for Durham to complete this
investigation. I think people are getting not only very frustrated, but,
also, there's a growing concern that Durham is not going to come out with
anything, and then Biden and Obama are going to be back in, and they're
going to shut this investigation off.
So, I have been very clear about this. Every day that ticks by, it's going
to become an absolute necessity that a special counsel is appointed on the
way out. Now, that doesn't mean that Biden wouldn't fire the special
counsel.
But at least you would have a special counsel office set up with money, so
that this investigation can continue, because I'm not seeing the
indictments that I should be seeing, when you take into the -- account that
I have made 14 criminal referrals involving dozens and dozens of people.
BARTIROMO: It's just extraordinary, Congressman, really.
Do you think that the president will name a special counsel, so that those
people who understand what took place in 2016 at least feel like this will
get a fair look?
NUNES: Well, yes, the way I understand it is, Attorney General Barr should
be the one to appoint this. He's been the one that has been out talking.
And I have a lot of confidence in him. I think he's a straight shooter. I
think he's probably also disappointed. I haven't spoke to him. But he would
be the one that would have to ensure that this investigation is continued
on to the end.
And I think there's nothing more important than after -- we continue to
hear about how people aren't accepting the election results. And here we
are only a couple weeks after the election.
BARTIROMO: Right.
NUNES: We have six or seven states that are extremely close.
It's almost laughable that anyone in the media or anybody on the Democratic
side of the aisle is even saying this, when you have Joe Biden himself who
was still accusing just a month ago President Trump of being a Russian
agent.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
NUNES: We -- this is not acceptable in this country.
BARTIROMO: Unbelievable.
Congressman, stay with us. I want to get your take on the irregularities in
terms of the vote for the presidential election and how social media played
a role.
We're talking with Congressman Devin Nunes.
And we will be right back on "Sunday Morning Futures."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
And I am back with Congressman Devin Nunes, the ranking member of the House
Intel Committee.
And, Congressman, I want to get your take on Joe Biden and whether or not
he is getting intelligence briefings. A lot of these -- the critics of
President Trump are complaining that he's not getting briefings.
Is he?
NUNES: As far as I know, he has been getting briefings since after the
Democratic Convention and the Republican Convention.
Both presidential candidates get briefings. And this was the case four
years ago, when both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were getting
briefings.
And, if you may recall, supposedly, reportedly, they actually used those
briefings on Trump to actually spy on him, if you may recall.
BARTIROMO: That's right. I remember that.
OK.
NUNES: Yes.
BARTIROMO: Congressman, what are your thoughts on these voting
irregularities?
You heard from Alan Dershowitz earlier.
NUNES: Mm-hmm.
BARTIROMO: You know what Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell have been saying.
What's your reaction to all of this, from your role in the Intelligence
Committee? And does social media play a role here?
NUNES: Well, a couple quick thoughts.
Number one, in any close election, whether it's a local mayor's race or a
congressional race, elections don't get called. We have several races in
the United States right now for Congress that haven't been called yet. So,
that's the first issue.
Secondly, if any of this technology is touching the Internet and the Web,
that's very concerning. As people -- I have been drug through this four
years of Russia, Russia, Russia. They interfered with the election.
We worked hard to make sure there were paper ballots. Now, if some of that
technology was touching the Web, that's a concern.
Look, this is a very close election. It's in Joe Biden's best -- best
interest and his overlord, Obama, that sits a mile from the White House,
like we talked in the last segment. They ought to be the ones that are
asking for every vote to be legally counted, because you have to
remember...
BARTIROMO: Right.
NUNES: ... the Democrats got smashed in this election.
They got destroyed at the state level, the local level, congressional
level, and the Senate level, assuming that we win these two seats in
Georgia.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
NUNES: So, this is a guy who is limping into the presidency. He was the
first guy to run a successful campaign from a basement, without actually
going out and intermingling with the people.
BARTIROMO: Congressman, I know you have seen a lot of changes, now that
you have moved to places like Rumble and Parler, as opposed to Twitter.
You're seeing many bigger numbers, indicating that they were keeping your
followers limited on the others.
We will talk about that next time.
It's great to see you this morning, Congressman. Thank you, Congressman
Devin Nunes.
NUNES: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Have a great Sunday, everybody. Thank you so much for joining
us.
And, from me to you, have a beautiful Thanksgiving. I will see you next
week right here.
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