This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," September 22, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
JOHN ROBERTS, ANCHOR: I'm John Roberts in for Chris Wallace.
Tension between United States and Iran to boil over as world leaders prepare to meet at the United Nations.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: These are the highest sanctions ever imposed on a country. We've never done it to this level.
ROBERTS: The United States continues its campaign of maximum pressure on the Islamic regime and --
MARK ESPER, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The president has approved the deployment of U.S. forces, which will be defensive in nature.
ROBERTS: Points the finger at Tehran for those Saudi oil attacks.
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: We know precisely who conducted these attacks, it was Iran.
ROBERTS: We'll ask Secretary of State Mike Pompeo about the options on the table live only on "FOX News Sunday".
Then, we'll get reaction from Democrat Ben Cardin, a key member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. It's a "FOX News Sunday" exclusive.
Plus, reports the president had an inappropriate phone call with the president of Ukraine.
REPORTER: Did you discuss Joe Biden, his son, or his family?
TRUMP: It doesn't matter what I discussed. It's a partisan whistle- blower.
JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know I'm up against it. A serial abuser. That's what this guy is. He abuses power everywhere he can.
ROBERTS: We'll discuss with President Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
Plus, ask or send a panel how the growing controversy is fueling impeachment talks. All right now on "FOX News Sunday".
ROBERTS: And hello again from FOX News in Washington.
The war of words over the Saudi oil attacks, which the United States blames on Iran, has turned into action, the Pentagon announcing it will send more troops to the region to boost security for allies and President Trump approving new sanctions on Iran's central bank.
But the president also signaling he is not inclined to authorize an immediate military strike, which the Iranian regime has declared would mean all-out war. In a moment, we'll speak with the president's top diplomat, Mike Pompeo, who just returned from Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi.
But first, Kevin Corke is traveling with the president, who has a rally today in Houston with the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
Kevin, good morning.
KEVIN CORKE, CORRESPONDENT: John, good day to be with you.
Right. We'll have more on that rally coming up in just a few moments, but by any measure, John, the Iranians are suffering greatly under this latest round of U.S. sanctions, just one of many weapons in the U.S. arsenal as it considers what to do next about Iran's Saudi attack.
TRUMP: We have just sanction the Iranian national bank. It's going to be at the highest level of sanctions.
CORKE: We'll see what happens, a familiar refrain from President Trump. When asked with the U.S. might do next to respond to Iran's attacks on Saudi oil fields. Iran denies it was behind those attacks. In addition to more sanctions, the president has authorized sending a battery of U.S. forces to the region at Saudi request.
ESPER: As the president has made clear, the United States does not seek conflict with Iran. That said, we have many other military options available should they be necessary.
CORKE: The strikes, which Washington says it can prove came from Iran, have pushed the regent to the brink.
For its part, Tehran is threatening to escalate the violence should the U.S. or the Saudis attack even in limited form.
MAJOR GENERAL HOSSEIN SALAMI, IRAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD COMMANDER: A limited invasion will not remain limited. We hand down and punish. We have proven it before.
CORKE: That warning comes under day that saw the regime put its military capabilities on display, with a series of parades to mark the 39th anniversary of the start of the Iran-Iraq war and comes months after the Iranians downed and a American surveillance drone in international airspace.
This in a week that will see a gathering of world leaders at United Nations General Assembly in New York where Iranian President Hassan Rouhani says he'll present a Gulf security plan.
CORKE: All this as the U.S. welcomes another world leader. This time it's Narendra Modi, as you mentioned, the prime minister of India. He's here for a "Howdy, Modi" Texas rally with President Trump. It is set to be the largest American audience to see a foreign leader speak other than the pope.
We'll bring it to you throughout the day. But for now, thank you.
ROBERTS: OK, Kevin Corke, thanks very much.
The president with an afternoon event with Scott Morrison, the prime minister of Australia as well.
Kevin, we'll see you soon. Thanks.
Joining me now from New York is the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.
Mr. Secretary, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".
POMPEO: John, it's great to be with you.
ROBERTS: Mr. Secretary, earlier in the week, you said of the attack against the Saudi oil facilities that it was, quote, an act of war, and you said that Iran was definitely behind it. When you say something is an act of war, does that demand ultimately a military response?
POMPEO: Well, John, our mission set has been very clear. President Trump would like to have a diplomatic solution, that's the task that's in front of us. That's what we've been aiming for for a little over two years now with the strongest sanctions that have ever been put in place against this revolutionary regime.
And, John, you know the history. Forty years of terror from Iran. It's an anti-Semitic set of leaders that would like to wipe Israel and America from the face of the earth. Our mission set is to avoid war.
You saw what Secretary Esper announced on Friday, we're putting additional forces in the region for the purpose of deterrence and defense, with our objective to be very clear, to support the Iranian people so that they can get this regime to cease behaving in a way that is so destructive not only to their own country, but to the entire Middle East.
ROBERTS: Mr. Secretary, there are reports this morning that Houthi militants in Yemen have warned both Saudi Arabia and the United States that Iran may be planning another attack in Saudi Arabia. Is that true?
POMPEO: So, I've certainly seen that reporting and I won't talk about American intelligence and what we know. But suffice it to say, we are consistently concerned that Iran will continue to behave in the way that it has now for 40 years, it did so before the JCPOA, it did so during the JCPOA, and they continue to act in ways that are inconsistent with our obligations.
I'm here this week at the United Nations. I traveled to Jeddah and to Abu Dhabi this week.
The whole world understands that Iran is the bad actor. They are the evil force in the region. They are destabilizing in the Middle East, and I hope this week here in New York, the whole world will come together to push back against this and convince the Iranian leadership that this behavior is simply unacceptable.
ROBERTS: That may be a tough hill to climb though, yes?
POMPEO: I think there's a handful of countries that are actually supportive of Iran and what Iran is doing are certainly unwilling to push back. But it's the case; this is the world's responsibility to respond from these state-on-state acts of war that took place in Saudi Arabia this past week.
ROBERTS: If Iran were to launch, in the middle of all of this, another attack against Saudi Arabia, would the United States have any other option but to respond militarily?
POMPEO: John, unlike the previous administration, we try -- we do our best to avoid talking about what we will do, but the American people should know, just like the Iranian people should know, America is prepared to respond in ways that are consistent with America's national security interests.
Our first aim, of course, is to keep the American people safe and secure, and part of that is to make sure that we have all the things in place so that we can do that.
ROBERTS: Mr. Secretary, many military and foreign policy experts, even members of the president's own support group, believe that in calling off the retaliatory strike in response to that drone shoot-down at the last minute, the president signaled to Iran that there are no consequences for its malign activities. What do you say to that criticism?
POMPEO: Well, first of all, there have been consequences, real consequences. The Iranian economy will shrink by between 10 and 15 percent in the year in front of us, and we took a handful of actions, some of which I can't talk about here. So there were certainly consequences.
The Iranians aren't looking for a green light. The Iranians have behaved poorly for 40 years. And so, it's not the case that any particular response has allowed the Iranians to think they have freedom to move about the cabin (ph).
I assure you of this: the Iranian leadership understands four-square that President Trump will take appropriate action and impose appropriate costs on Iran if they continue to act in the way that they've done over these past now 40 years.
ROBERTS: You mentioned, Mr. Secretary, at the beginning of this, the sanctions that President Trump put on Iran. On Friday, he said that there were sanctions at the highest level. If these sanctions don't work, what's next? What's left?
POMPEO: Well, they are working, John. The toughest of the sanctions, the essential ban on the -- Iran's ability to sell its crude oil around the world took effect only --
POMPEO: -- in May of this year.
ROBERTS: But what I mean is if they don't work -- if they don't work to bring Iran to the table.
POMPEO: As Secretary Esper said on Friday night, we're prepared to act in ways that are necessary in order to achieve the outcome President Trump has very clearly laid out. I talked about it a year ago, in May. We know what the objectives are. We simply want Iran to behave like a normal nation.
ROBERTS: Mr. Secretary, is it possible that if there were a retaliatory military strike against Iran, that it would be able to be contained, or would it, as Javad Zarif and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Council have warned, erupt into all-out conflagration in the Middle East, which would likely involve U.S. bases in the region, would likely also possibly involve Israel?
POMPEO: We're certainly deeply aware of the risks. That's why we want to resolve this in a way that doesn't resort to kinetic action, if it's at all possible to achieve that.
But as for Zarif, I don't know why nobody listens to him. He has nothing to do with Iranian foreign policy. He lies all the time.
We need to make sure that we do the right things to protect and secure America and do our best to provide the resources to the Emirates and the Saudis, who I had a chance to speak to this week on my trip, so that they have increased capability to defend themselves and their own people. And when we -- when we do those things, I'm confident that we will have set the conditions for deterrence. And if that deterrence should continue to fail, I'm also confident President Trump will take the actions that are necessary.
ROBERTS: All right. We will see what happens at the United Nations General Assembly this week. I'll see you there later on today.
Let's switch to this whistleblower complaint. We still don't know the exact substance of the complaint but it does seem to revolve around a July 25th conversation the president had with the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.
And we have heard from reporting in "The Wall Street Journal" that the president asked Zelensky about eight times to have the Ukraine work with his attorney Rudy Giuliani to investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden's involvement in Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian natural gas company.
To your mind, is that an appropriate conversation for Rudy Giuliani to be having with Ukrainian officials?
POMPEO: Well, John, you're asking me to comment on an I.C. (ph) report I haven't seen and some reporting -- I have no idea if that has any foundation whatsoever.
As for appropriate action, I've watched the president engage with the Ukrainian leadership. I listened to conversations. I remember the previous administration refusing to send defensive weapon systems to Ukraine. This president has chosen to do that not once, not twice, but now three times, so that the Ukraine people could fight back against the overtaking of southeast Ukraine.
You remember, it was the previous administration that allowed Vladimir Putin to take one fifth of the Ukrainian country.
We're going to see President Zelensky this week. I do hope -- I do hope that if Vice President Biden engaged in behavior that was inappropriate, if he had a conflict of interest or entered (ph) -- or allowed something to take place in Ukraine which may have interfered in our elections in 2016, I do hope that we get to the bottom of that.
ROBERTS: Mr. Secretary, you said that you have not seen the complaint, not many people have. I assume, though, that you have seen a transcript of the telephone call that the president had with Zelensky.
Should a transcript of that be released to clear the air?
POMPEO: I'll ultimately leave that to the White House. But you know, John, those are private conversations between world leaders, and it's -- it's not often that those are released. And when they're done, it's done when the White House deems it appropriate. And I'll leave whether that should be released to them.
ROBERTS: Again, I assume that you've seen the transcript. Is it as described in "The Wall Street Journal"?
POMPEO: You know, I haven't seen "The Wall Street Journal" piece, John. There's a lot going on in the world.
The whistleblower complaint reportedly alleges a quid pro quo or a promise made to a foreign leader. "The Wall Street Journal" reports there was no evidence of a quid pro quo in that call with Zelensky. Was there a quid pro quo -- was there a request to investigate Biden and/or his son? And was that linked to a promise of aid?
POMPEO: John, I've watched this president evaluate how and when and to the extent we should provide support to Ukraine, both defense assistance and other foreign assistance, we've been at the center of that.
Those conversations have always been 100 percent appropriate, 100 percent lawful, and 100 percent ensuring that the American taxpayers were protected, that we put those resources to good use and we've got good outcomes in Ukraine when we used American taxpayer dollars to support the Ukrainian leadership -- every single time, John.
ROBERTS: If there was a quid pro quo, would that be a problem?
POMPEO: John, you're asking me to provide legal analysis on a hypothetical on a report I haven't seen. Come on.
ROBERTS: I mean, if an American leader says to a foreign leader, we will do this and it might have something to do with USA, in exchange for this, is that a problem?
POMPEO: John, it's the case we have foreign assistance that is evaluated against American objectives consistently. It's my duty to protect America by making sure that when foreign assistance is provided to countries, that America benefit from that. And it's completely appropriate to make sure that American taxpayer dollars are used appropriately.
ROBERTS: Do believe that there should be an investigation into Hunter Biden's involvement with the Ukrainian gas company?
POMPEO: I'll leave that to others, but I certainly think it's appropriate if there's concerns and there's enough information to justify looking into it. The American people deserve to know if that was handled in an appropriate way by Vice President Biden.
ROBERTS: Just before we go, Mr. Secretary, are you ruling out a run for the Senate from Kansas next year?
POMPEO: I've said the same thing, John, for a long time. As long as President Trump is going to have me as secretary of state, which I hope is a long time, that's what I'm going to continue to do.
ROBERTS: I'm sure he wants you as secretary of state for a long time. I'm just wondering if you still have aspirations for the Senate.
POMPEO: It's what I want to do, too. I want to be President Trump's secretary of state.
ROBERTS: All right. Secretary Pompeo, we'll see you later on in New York.
POMPEO: Thank you, sir.
ROBERTS: Thanks for joining us.
We'll be following all the action, of course, at the United Nations General Assembly next week.
ROBERTS: Interactions between President Trump, Rudy Giuliani, and the president of Ukraine are under scrutiny following reports of a whistle- blower complaint, claiming that the president urged the Ukrainian to investigate the son of former Vice President Joe Biden, potentially influencing the 2020 race.
Joining me here live in Washington to talk more about this is Mr. Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani.
Rudy, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday."
RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: How are you? How are you, John?
ROBERTS: I'm good. Thanks for joining us.
Let's clear something up, first of all.
ROBERTS: Let's dial the clock back to Thursday, play this exchange between you and Chris Cuomo on CNN, in which you appeared to at first say you didn't ask Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and/or his son, and then you seemed to change her mind.
ROBERTS: Listen. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN: Did you to ask the Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden?
Actually, I didn't.
CUOMO: You never asked anything about Hunter Biden? You never asked anything about Joe Biden...
GIULIANI: The only thing I asked about Joe Biden...
CUOMO: ... and his role with the prosecutor?
GIULIANI: ... is to get to the bottom of how it was that Lutsenko, who was appointed...
GIULIANI: ... dismissed the case against AntAC.
CUOMO: So, you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?
GIULIANI: Of course I did.
CUOMO: You just said you didn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: All right, so which is it? Did you ask the Ukraine -- did you ask the Ukraine -- did you ask Ukraine to look into it or not?
GIULIANI: I clarified it immediately.
ROBERTS: All right.
GIULIANI: He said to me, did you ever talk about Joe Biden? I said no. Then I said, I did say that you should investigate Joe Biden and Hunter Biden.
The no was obviously wrong. I corrected it immediately.
GIULIANI: I corrected it before he corrected it.
The reality is, the distinction is this. What they are trying to say is, I went there for a political mission to kind of get Joe Biden in trouble.
I went there as a lawyer defending his client. I -- I have known about this for five months. I have been trying to get people to cover this for five months. So, I knew it would be very, very hard to get this out.
And what I'm talking about, this, it's Ukrainian collusion, which was large, significant, and proven with Hillary Clinton, with the Democratic National Committee, a woman named Chalupa, with the ambassador, with an FBI agent who's now been hired by George Soros who was funding a lot of it.
When Biden got the prosecutor fired, the new prosecutor, who Biden approved -- you don't get to approve a prosecutor in a foreign country, unless something fishy is going on.
The new prosecutor dropped the case, not just on Biden's kid and the crooked company that Biden's kid work for, Burisma. That was done as a matter of record in October of 2016, after the guy got tanked.
He also dropped the case on George Soros' company called AntAC. AntAC is the company where there's documentary evidence that they were producing false information about Trump, about Biden. Fusion GPS was there.
Go back and listen to Nellie Ohr's testimony. Nellie Ohr says that there was a lot of contract between Democrats and the Ukraine.
Well, I have all the contacts. And, John, when the rest of this comes out, and when you look at China and the $1.5 billion that the -- that the Biden family took out of China while that guy was negotiating for us, this will be a lot bigger than Spiro Agnew.
They have fallen into a trap.
ROBERTS: So, you went over there to investigate alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election?
GIULIANI: Yes. And if I can't do that, I can't defend a client.
ROBERTS: All right, so when did this morph into an investigation of Joe Biden and Hunter Biden?
And is it appropriate for you, as a representative of the president, to be going to Ukraine and finding dirt on Joe Biden and/or his son to use politically in 2020?
GIULIANI: Well, that's the way you characterize it. It's certainly appropriate...
ROBERTS: That's the way it appears to line up.
GIULIANI: No, it doesn't.
ROBERTS: You went there for one thing, you found out something else, and that's what you have been digging on this.
GIULIANI: That's the way the pro-Biden media lines it up.
This began with someone coming to me saying, this information can clear your client about the corruption in Ukraine between the Ukraine, the Democratic Party, the ambassador, and the FBI agent who investigated the case.
ROBERTS: But it then -- but then it morphs into Biden.
GIULIANI: And -- inextricably combined, because Biden had the guy fired, Shokin.
By the way, his statement is on record. The lazy press could go read it. They don't have to listen to me. There are three videotapes of prosecutors on record, available on here, that nobody has covered for five months, because this town protects Joe Biden.
His family has been taking money from his public office for years, $1.5 billion from China, when our vice president is supposed to be impartially and independently negotiating for us? And the kid, he takes him on Air Force Two to China, and the kid...
ROBERTS: That was in 2013.
And the kid, unfortunately, is a drug addict. China didn't give $1.5 billion to his kid, Biden's kid, a recovering drug addict, Kerry's stepson, and Whitey Bulger's nephew.
Ladies and gentlemen, go look at what the press has been covering up on you. Can you imagine...
ROBERTS: This is a company called Rosemont Seneca.
Let me just -- let me just come back, if I could.
GIULIANI: You got to stop for a second.
Whitey Bulger's nephew?
ROBERTS: Let me just stop for a second.
GIULIANI: One-point-five billion coming from China, when our vice president...
ROBERTS: Mr. Mayor...
GIULIANI: That doesn't shock you?
ROBERTS: ... let me stop for a second, because...
GIULIANI: I mean, how far have we deteriorated?
ROBERTS: Let me stop for a second, because we are throwing around a lot of Ukrainian names that people don't know about.
GIULIANI: Well, that's because nobody would ever cover this.
ROBERTS: Viktor Shokin was a prosecutor back when Biden was the vice president.
He was looking into Burisma Holdings...
ROBERTS: ... of which Hunter Biden was on the board of directors.
ROBERTS: There were some allegations that there was some monkey business going on with Burisma.
ROBERTS: Joe Biden -- Joe Biden -- Joe Biden went over to Ukraine in 2016...
ROBERTS: ... and said that, I'm going to withhold more than a billion dollars in loan guarantees unless you fire this prosecutor.
Joe Biden talked about that in 2018. Let's roll that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I said, I'm telling you, you're not getting the billion dollars. I said, you're not getting the billion. I'm going to be leaving here.
And I think it was, what, six hours. I look at it. I said, we're leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: But Shokin had been heavily criticized for corruption.
And it was the United States and a number of other Western countries who said...
GIULIANI: So is everybody in the Ukraine.
ROBERTS: ... he needs to go.
GIULIANI: More relevant...
ROBERTS: So, was this tied to Hunter Biden, or was this the United States saying, you have got a bad actor there, because he was accused of corruption in his office? And other countries in the West were saying he needs to go as well.
GIULIANI: What does it matter, if the -- if the son is under investigation? He didn't disclose that.
Doesn't the thing strike you? I mean, it is so warped. Doesn't it strike you as strange that he would tell that story and not mention to you that his son's company was the major defendant in the investigation, the guy who was carrying on?
Do you -- I happen to know -- and I have seen the records -- do you know why he was fired? Do you know how the kid was paid? Three million dollars goes from Ukraine to Cyprus -- I'm sorry -- Ukraine to Latvia, Latvia to Cyprus, Cyprus to Rosemont Seneca.
I have seen each one of the wires.
When that prosecutor, Shokin, subpoenaed Cyprus, he got a response. I have the record. They gave him all the information, but two people, Hunter Biden and John Kerry's stepson -- I'm sorry -- John Kerry's speechwriter, who was the best friend of his stepson.
ROBERTS: The prosecutor who followed..
GIULIANI: When that happened, Joe Biden knew that they were zeroing in on Hunter.
And he went over there and he got him fired. And the next day, people showed up. And they started on getting the case for the kid dismissed, as well as the case for Soros. And that's what brings me into it.
ROBERTS: Now, the prosecutor -- the prosecutor...
GIULIANI: No, you got to let me finish.
GIULIANI: He said, I went there to get dirt on Joe Biden.
Do you know, when I found out about Joe Biden, do know what I told my colleague? They are going to cover this up.
Too bad Biden is involved in this. I got a nice straight case of Ukrainian collusion. The minute I say Biden, that Washington press corps is going to go nuts. They have been covering up for years, China, plagiarism.
ROBERTS: OK. OK. All right.
Now you're straying into areas of opinion, as opposed to fact.
GIULIANI: No, I'm not. I'm straying into what is wrong with us today and the unfairness.
ROBERTS: We need to point out -- we need to point out that Yuriy Lutsenko, who was the prosecutor who was appointed after Shokin was fire...
GIULIANI: Approved by...
ROBERTS: ... resurrected, reanimated the case, and found that Hunter Biden was, in fact, paid millions of dollars.
But Lutsenko said that the board of Burisma was able to pay a board member whatever they wanted, and he didn't see anything wrong with that.
GIULIANI: John, how is the coverage so distorted?
ROBERTS: I'm just pointing out a fact.
GIULIANI: If you did any work, you would find out Lutsenko is the prosecutor that Biden put in.
There's a newspaper article in which Biden approves Lutsenko when he's appointed. Doesn't that strike you as odd, that the vice president would approve a particular prosecutor?
Did you ever bother to look?
GIULIANI: Let me finish.
ROBERTS: One other point we need to make here before we go.
GIULIANI: No, no, no, I want answer another question unless you let me finish. This is really unfair.
These are very important things that have been covered up for years to protect slimy Joe.
The reality is that there are three other prosecutors where all you have to do is go online, three others, that say that this was done precisely to get rid of Biden, to cover up Hunter, and to cover up Soros.
I will give you their names. One of them is Kulik, Konstantin Kulik. The other is Shokin himself. And the third one is a prosecutor by the name of Inazdir (ph).
They are present officials. Three of them were officials. One is still an official of the Ukrainian government.
If you bothered to look, you could listen to them on tape telling you that. Now, they may all be lying, but Lutsenko may be lying also. But it's 3-1.
ROBERTS: One more point we got to make.
GIULIANI: And Lutsenko is Biden's chosen prosecutor.
ROBERTS: OK. You have made your point.
One more point to make we need to make.
GIULIANI: You will also find there is a great deal of suspicion.
ROBERTS: Yes, Joe Biden yesterday told our Peter -- Joe Biden told our Peter Doocy yesterday that he never discussed overseas business with his son Hunter.
GIULIANI: Do you believe that?
ROBERTS: I don't know. Do you believe that?
GIULIANI: I'm flying my son to China. How long is the flight to China?
ROBERTS: Its a while.
GIULIANI: Fifteen hours, 16 hours, 17?
I'm flying my son to China on Air Force Two. I'm going to negotiate with the Chinese to help America. My son is going there to negotiate to help the Biden family.
When he comes back, and eight days later, the kid gets a billion dollars in his ridiculous private equity fund run by a recovering drug addict, somebody connected to the vice president of the United States and somebody connected to the biggest gangster in America.
Wait a second. The son doesn't say to him, I got a billion dollars? By the way, you see what Joe said? It's contradicted by the son. The son said, I talked to my father about it.
How about this? There was an article on December 9 of 2015 in "The New York Times" raising holy hell about Biden's son being on the board of the most corrupt company in Ukraine and how strange it looked.
I don't know if Joe reads the newspapers, but somebody must have read that to him.
And, finally, if Joe didn't know what his son was doing abroad, how may conflicts are there? This guy was flying blind? I don't know. Did he get money from Russia? Did he get money from Cuba? Was he doing business in Venezuela?
You're telling me that the vice president of the United States was there for eight years. His son is going around the world taking millions from some adversary of the United States.
GIULIANI: Don't say yes. This is important.
ROBERTS: No, no, we have -- I'm saying we have got to go.
GIULIANI: This is about the only time I have gotten to point out a tremendously large scandal that affects the American people.
And it's your job to do it, not just mine. I'm doing it to defend my client.
ROBERTS: We are out of time.
GIULIANI: But you're telling me that he had no system with his son to check on conflicts? So we know of two.
We know there's a big conflict with Ukraine. We know there is a big conflict with China. Since Joe says and is apparently selling the swamp media on the fact that he didn't know, well, Joe, how many more conflicts are there? Venezuela? Cuba?
ROBERTS: You have mentioned that.
We have got to leave it. Mr. Mayor, we are...
GIULIANI: One-point-five billion is enough for most people to get investigated.
ROBERTS: We are out of time for this morning, but, clearly, we are going to keep looking into this.
GIULIANI: And this is going to get bigger and bigger. And everything I say, I can prove.
ROBERTS: Rudy, thanks so much for being with us.
GIULIANI: Take me on.
ROBERTS: All right. Appreciate it.
Coming up, we will get reaction to the president's Iran policy with the top Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Ben Cardin joins us here next.
ROBERTS: Coming up, President Trump authorizes new economic penalties on Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have just sanctioned the Iranian national bank. It's going to be at the highest level of sanctions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: We'll ask our Sunday panel whether the move will bring Tehran back to the negotiating table, next.
ROBERTS: As the United States boosts its defenses in the Middle East after blaming Iran for the attacks on Saudi oil facilities, the Islamic regime says it's ready for any scenario.
Joining me here in Washington, Senator Ben Cardin, a top Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee.
Senator, welcome back to “Fox News Sunday.”
SEN. BEN CARDIN, D-MD: John, it's great to be with you. Thank you.
ROBERTS: So the U.S. is sending more troops and defensive weapons to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates to counter the threat coming from Iran.
Your thoughts about sending more men and material there?
CARDIN: John, this is a very dangerous situation. There could easily be a miscalculation. The temperature couldn't be harder between the United States and Iran.
Our job is to isolate Iran. Iran is the bad actor. And what the president needs to do is get an international coalition to continue to work against Iran's support of terrorism. The challenge, of course, is, because, as the United States has been isolated when the president withdrew from the Iran nuclear agreement. So we're having difficulty with our European allies to get the type of support we need, but we have to isolate Iran.
ROBERTS: There are reports that -- from the Houthis apparently to Saudi Arabia and to the United States, I don't know if you saw my question to the secretary of state, that Iran is planning another attack in Saudi Arabia.
If Iran were, in the middle of all of this, launch another attack at Saudi Arabia, would that demand a military response?
CARDIN: There's really not a military solution to the problem of Iran. We need to make diplomacy work. Clearly there could be a miscalculation. We have to defend ourselves, no question about that, but we have to reduce the temp -- where we are, where we could have this miscalculation.
It would be disastrous if we got into a fighting war in Iran. It will have consequences throughout the entire region. It's not in our national security interests.
ROBERTS: All right, so we've got the United States ramping up sanctions on Iran, withdrawing from the JCPOA, which you yourself didn't -- didn't vote for. And Iran is countering by shooting down American drones, firing missiles and launching drones at Saudi oil facilities. I mean they are in a shooting war. So is -- is this -- is this -- I mean if you let somebody fire at you and you don't shoot back, are you not showing weakness?
CARDIN: Well, John, here -- here's the fault of the Trump policies. Before we withdrew from the Iran nuclear agreements, there were conversations with the Europeans about strengthening the sanctions against Iran for the non- nuclear violations. We could have had that international support and tightens the economic pressure against Iran, but still stay within the nuclear agreement. By pulling out of the nuclear agreement, it's the view of Europe that this is an American problem rather than an international problem.
ROBERTS: But -- but you know the arguments, this president said, look, it covers the nuclear, but it -- there's a sunset clause to it of a decade, which isn't much when you look at, you know, the history of nuclear development. But it also does not do anything to reign in Iran's malign activities.
I pointed out, you yourself did not vote for the JCPOA because you were worried about future uranium enrichment.
So why stay in a bad deal?
CARDIN: No, I agree with that analysis, but the way to fix it is to work with Europe, work with our partners to deal with the non-nuclear violations, strengths the sanctions against Iran on the non-nuclear side, make sure they stay in compliance with the nuclear obligations. They were in compliance with the nuclear obligations when the United States pulled out.
The bottom line is, we made -- the -- we isolated the United States rather than isolating Iran, and Iran is the bad actor. There's no question about it. We don't know what they're going to do, but we certainly need the support of our international partners.
ROBERTS: But how serious is Iran about the JCPOA? The United States pulled out. There is still five signatories to it, yet Iran is violating the agreement.
CARDIN: Well, the issue is, Iran -- we don't know how Iran's calculating this, but we do know that the U.S. sanctions is having a major impact on their economy. So the benefits they thought they were going to get under the nuclear agreement, they're no longer getting.
CARDIN: That's causing them to recalculate.
ROBERTS: For the moment, President Trump says he's showing restraint about Iran. He's got people like Secretary Pompeo saying it's an act of war. Others are pointing fingers, like Mark Esper and Pompeo at Iran. The president saying, I'm going to sit back and wait and see how this plays out. Listen to what he said in the Oval Office the other day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: I think the strong person's approach and the thing that does show strength would be showing a little bit of restraint. Much easier to do it the -- the other way. It's much easier. And Iran knows, if they misbehave, they're on borrowed time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: So you've got the president's aides on the one hand saying, act of war, Iran's responsible. The president saying, I'm waiting and seeing her. He's leaving the door open to negotiation, even amidst all this tough talk.
Could that be a good strategy to try to bring them to the table?
CARDIN: I think it's an important week with all the world leaders -- most of the world leaders meeting up in New York for the opening of the General Assembly of the United Nations.
I hope that we can get that type of unity with the international community in regards to Iran so that the military option is not the right option. I agree with Secretary Pompeo that diplomacy should be the way we proceed. I agree with that.
And hopefully this week we can get the type of support in New York to make a difference in the calculation by Iran so that they stop these horrible things.
What they're doing is horrible. We can't let them continue to do that.
ROBERTS: Let me switch to this intelligence committee inspector general whistle-blower report. "The Wall Street Journal" reported on Friday that the president had a conversation with Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, in which he about eight times pressured Zelensky to have Ukraine work with Rudy Giuliani to look into Joe Biden.
The Ukrainian foreign minister, Vadym Prystaiko, said today, quote, I know what the conversation was about and I think there was no pressure. So you have Democrats on the one side calling for the president's impeachment over this, and then you have the Ukrainian foreign minister saying, I don't see any pressure.
CARDIN: I think we need to know what happened. The allegations are that the president used the power of his office for partisan political purposes, jeopardizing the national security of the United States by withholding aid to Ukraine, one of our key, strategic partners. That --
ROBERTS: Nobody's made the connection about aid yet. We don't even know what this thing's about.
CARDIN: We -- we -- at least there's been some reports that there was $250 million that were held up, ultimately was released --
ROBERTS: I think people have connected the dots, but I don't think we've got anything really to back that up.
CARDIN: Well, that's what -- let's find out. Let's -- let's find -- let's have transparency here. We can easily find that out if information about those phone calls would be released and we could see exactly what's involved. But the president has chosen, at least to date, not to release that information.
These are serious allegations. Let's find out.
I -- I -- I don't want to reach a conclusion. I'm just suggesting to you that an allegation that the president used his political office for partisan reasons, jeopardizing our national security, we need to get to the facts.
ROBERTS: Is there a case to be made to launch an investigation into Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden's -- their involvement in Ukraine? Let's listen to what the president said and what Joe Biden said the other day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Somebody ought to look into Joe Biden's statement, because it was disgraceful, where he talked about billions of dollars that he is not giving to a certain country less a certain prosecutor is taken off the case.
BIDEN: Not one single, credible outlet has given any credibility to his assertion. Not one single one. And so I have no comment except the president should start to (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Now, in fact, a lot of credible news organizations, including "The New York Times," have been looking into this. Ken Vogel, who's the reporter who wrote about it -- and here's the article -- back in May said on Friday that there's -- this could be a significant issue for Joe Biden and that there's more there.
CARDIN: Well -- well, John, I know what happened in 2015 with the prosecutor. The international community needed that prosecutor to leave. Congress wanted that prosecutor to leave. Corruption was the center problem we had with Ukraine, maintaining our coalition against Russia for -- with sanctions. And we had to deal with the corrupt issues and the prosecutor was in the center of that. So that -- that was a policy that we wanted to implement.
Joe Biden's issue has been looked at for a long time. There's been findings that there is no improper involvement. This is a distraction by the president of the United States to distract from his most recent situation.
ROBERTS: You don't want to prejudge the situation with the president and his whistle-blower, but a lot of your Democratic colleagues are already making the leap to impeachment.
Is that going too far?
CARDIN: I -- I think you need to get the facts. I don't think you should -- you know, the impeachment process is a way in which Congress exercises its responsibility, checks and balances in our system. But you can't act on that type of a remedy until you have the facts. So let's get the facts first.
ROBERTS: Senator Cardin, always good to see you.
CARDIN: Nice to be with you.
ROBERTS: Thanks so much for coming in.
Coming up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the prospects of a showdown between the United States and Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think it's abundantly clear and there is an enormous consensus in the region that we know precisely who conducted these attacks. It was Iran.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What would be the consequence of an American or a Saudi military strike on Iran now?
MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: An all-out war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: The top diplomats from this country and Iran in a war of words this week over the fallout from the attacks on Saudi Arabia's oil industry.
And its time now for our Sunday group. Jonah Goldberg for "The National Review," Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, Susan Page of "USA Today," and Matthew Continetti, founding editor of "The Washington Free Beacon."
Are we going to war, Susan, with Iran?
SUSAN PAGE, "USA TODAY": Well, judging from your interview with Secretary of State Pompeo, I'd say probably not. He -- you asked them if it's an active war, does that demand a military response, and he repeatedly denied -- declined to say yes. And judging from what the president did in June, after the American drone was shot down and he backed away from a military strike, I think the odds are against us taking military action in this case.
ROBERTS: The fact that he backed away from that strike, does that mean that he cannot take military action?
MATTHEW CONTINETTI, "WASHINGTON FREE BEACON": No. I mean he could take military action at any time. He's the commander-in-chief. What we're seeing, though, is that the maximum pressure campaign of the Trump administration has met maximum resistance from the Iranian regime. And the cyber operations and the economic warfare that the Trump White House has been waging against Iran has yet to deter them from their malign behavior in the region. But, that status quo is something I think the president prefers to all-out war.
ROBERTS: Right. It -- the -- Congress is saying he's got to come to Congress for an authorization to use military force against Iran. First of all, does he have to? And if he went to Congress, would he get it?
JONAH GOLDBERG, "NATIONAL REVIEW": It depends. I think we would need more provocation than what we have seen. I'm sort of a purist on this kind of stuff. I do think that you should go to Congress, unless it's in response to an immediate and urgent national security thing, then it -- Congress has the -- has the sole authority to authorize war. But we've seen that eroded so much over the last 50 years, like so many other congressional prerogatives that I think it's anybody's guess.
JUAN WILLIAMS, POLITICAL ANALYST: I think, John, based on your question, you can tell there's no clear end game in sight. What we know is the president says he doesn't want war there, but he's previously also said we're locked and loaded. And what was incredible to me was to hear him say that he's waiting for guidance to come from the Saudis.
Now, the Iranians are no friends of ours, but, gosh, the Saudis, I don't know if they're a reliable and trustworthy regime. They kill American journalists. 9/11 is not to be forgotten.
ROBERTS: And here's another argument that people made. The United States has sold Saudi Arabia, and the president made a big deal of this, billions of dollars in military equipment. Can't the Saudis handle this themselves?
PAGE: And -- well, I guess we're going to find out. I mean we're making this gesture to Saudi Arabia with a very limited deployment. But -- but, yes, Saudi Arabia has a lot of defensive abilities, a lot of it provided by the United States, helped by the United States.
WILLIAMS: But I think the key point here is, Iran has denied responsibility, but we have no reason to trust that they are not responsible, or at least supporting the Houthi rebels that did this.
But the point from the American political perspective is, we are still trying to get out of Afghanistan. There is no appetite in his country for starting another war without a clear end game in sight. And the president has not provided that.
CONTINETTI: And the president's policy, it reflects exactly that attitude though.
WILLIAMS: Right. We all know what we're doing (ph).
PAGE: And the president's base doesn't back it either (ph).
CONTINETTI: He doesn't want to get involved either.
What's remarkable here, for 70 years plus, the United States has guaranteed the free flow of oil from the Persian Gulf. That is ending. At its ending because of fracking.
ROBERTS: Let's get on to the whistle-blower issue here.
President Trump, he was leaving for Houston a short time ago. He said this about his conversation with Volodymyr Zelensky, the president of the Ukraine, back on July 25th.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The conversation I had with the president of Ukraine was absolutely perfect. And people better find out who these people are that are trying to subvert our country, because here we go again. These are bad people.
But the conversation I had with the president of Ukraine was absolutely a ten.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: So it was a ten. Is there anything wrong with the president saying to the president of the Ukraine, look, why don't you work with Rudy Giuliani and investigate what ties Joe Biden and Hunter Biden have to Ukrainian natural gas companies.
PAGE: Yes. It's soliciting foreign help in your campaign for re-election for president of the United States. And it's something that I think people would generally find alarming.
ROBERTS: Now, the Ukraine helped Hillary Clinton, so --
GOLDBERG: Yes, OK, look, I mean we've got to separate a whole bunch of things here. The idea -- you know, people who are -- you know, President Trump has -- has some weird messaging on this. On the one hand he says it's all made up and fake news. On the other hand he says he was spied on, which would suggest that, in fact, the allegations are true.
Rudy Giuliani comes on air today and take great umbrage at the accusation or insinuation that he's a political hit man, and then he spends the next seven minutes like the -- one of the biggest political hit men I've ever seen. It could be -- I don't -- I think there's a lot of smoke and -- and bluster going on in what Giuliani is doing. It could all be true.
If the president of the United States tried to bend national security, based upon his own partisan self-interest, that would be very, very, very bad. And the people who say he's just interested in corruption, this seems to be the only corruption case in the world he's concerned about, is the one about the guy who's beating him by ten points in the polls.
ROBERTS: "The Washington Examiner" had an article this morning that suggested that the whistle-blower does not have firsthand knowledge of any of this. But the point is, is that if you're going to investigate the president, and there are 9,573 investigations of the president going on right now, should you not also investigate the person who might become president?
CONTINETTI: A lot of conversations in Washington over the last 48 hours have begun with the word "if." And the fact is, we don't know. And so I think the advocates of impeachment in this case carry a heavy burden, John. One is that with the Russian investigation, there was a whole lot of misreporting and factual inaccuracy in the actual reporting. Two, when the Mueller report came out, it did not provide the data that Democrats wanted to impeach. And, third, all of these charges, as illustrated in Rudy Giuliani's interview with you, have the potential to boomerang on the Democratic Party.
ROBERTS: All right, so let me ask you about the Democratic Party, Juan. You heard Ben Cardin say he doesn't want to prejudge anything. He wants the information. He wants to see this.
You've got Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. You've got Elizabeth Warren. You've got a myriad of other Democrats not even waiting for a shred of evidence here. They're looking at reporting and saying, impeach him, off with his head. I mean should they not wait -- do they not have a responsibility to wait until we know some facts here before we got down the impeachment road?
WILLIAMS: Yes, I think everyone should wait. But, remember, there's no reason to wait on the transcript. If, as the president describes it, nothing untoward took place, why is it that the administration is making such an effort to obstruct the Congress from getting that transcript?
What we know is --
ROBERTS: It's not the transcript that they're not holding back --
WILLIAMS: Well --
ROBERTS: It's the complaint.
WILLIAMS: Well, the complaint, the transcript, the whole thing. If -- because the transcript goes beyond the complaint, which is why I said transcript. But the idea is that this administration has, through the Justice Department, stop what is the law. The law says that if you have an urgent complaint, the inspector general of the director of national intelligence would transfer that to the Congress. It's not going on. That is wrong.
GOLDBERG: Previous presidents have also disputed the idea that the president has an obligation by the -- by statute to do that. It's a -- it's a murky constitutional issue.
PAGE: The one Democrat we haven't heard from calling for impeachment is the one Democrat who counts, Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She set a standard that we need to hear Republicans be outraged by the president's behavior, not just Democrats. And so far we haven't heard that.
ROBERTS: Fifteen seconds.
CONTINETTI: We'll be waiting for a long time.
ROBERTS: Yes, Fifteen seconds, should the transcript be released?
WILLIAMS: Of course.
CONTINETTI: I think if it exculpates Trump, they should release it.
But there is the issue of executive privilege here, governing foreign communications, which also needs to be respected.
WILLIAMS: If this was Obama, House Republicans would have --
ROBERTS: We've got to go.
See you next Sunday, by the way.
Coming up next, our "Power Player of the Week," Denzel Washington and the club he says made him the man he is today.
ROBERTS: For many children, the hours between three and 8:00 p.m. are when their futures are decided. As Chris Wallace reported last fall, one organization has opened its doors for over 100 years to make sure that kids have a place to go after school and stay out of trouble. One of those kids became a household name, and he is our "Power Player of the Week."
DENZEL WASHINGTON, BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS NATIONAL SPOKESMAN: It's where I learned so many life lessons, just thinking I was having fun.
CHRIS WALLACE, HOST (voice over): Denzel Washington is talking with the Boys & Girls Clubs of America. Four thousand local clubs that provide after-school programs for more than 4 million young people. And, in the process, change lives.
He was in Washington last fall for the group's annual dinner.
WASHINGTON: I remember that first day and how I felt and how special they made me feel.
WALLACE: And to honor the national youth of the year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Malachi Haynes.
WALLACE: Malachi Haynes of Colorado, who's been going to his club since he was six.
MALACHI HAYNES, BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB 2018 YOUTH OF THE YEAR: Being a leader and a role model in my community is my purpose.
WASHINGTON: I was a wild one. You know, I was -- I had a lot of energy.
WALLACE: Washington used to run track for his club. And he remembers when a new kid came in and started running faster. One of his mentors took him aside.
WASHINGTON: He said, he has natural ability, but his natural ability will only take him so far. So I applied that to -- to -- to my career, my first two years when I started acting in college.
WALLACE: Washington won the first of his two Oscars for his role in "Glory," about an African-American military unit in the Civil War.
For more than 30 years, he's played a series of indelible characters.
WASHINGTON: To protect the sheep, you've got to catch the wolf. And it takes a wolf to catch a wolf, you understand?
I was never interested in being a movie star. We were sort of New York theater snobs. I wanted to be James Earl Jones, you know? I was hoping to make $650 on Broadway one day. And -- and I did.
WALLACE (on camera): Your father was a preacher and I've read that at various points in your life you've thought about becoming a preacher.
WASHINGTON: It was prophesies that I would preach. And -- by this woman. And I said, well, maybe that's what I'm supposed to do. And says, well, you already have a pulpit.
WALLACE (voice over): Now, Washington is more about giving back.
WASHINGTON: You never see a U-Haul behind a hearse. That's what my pastor told me. You know, you -- whatever you have, you can't take it with you. So the question is, what are you going to do with what you have while you're here?
WALLACE (voice over): The Boys & Girls Clubs deal with the ups and downs of life too. Kids at the clubs do better at school, are less likely to do drugs, and volunteer more. Malachi started his own program to improve reading levels.
HAYNES: We call it Double Trouble. So we do an hour of reading, then an hour of playing basketball, eating pizza, just hanging out and getting to know the kids.
WALLACE: And Denzel Washington says that's the real message here.
WASHINGTON: We're just bombarded so much with negative news that the -- one can just feel like, well, what's the -- what's the use? But listening to these young people saying, oh, no, no, we're going to change it, we're going to do something about it, I'm -- that's inspiring.
ROBERTS: Chris asked Washington where he sees himself at this stage of his career. He says he uses stuntmen more than he used to but is excited about the unknown and what comes next in his life and career.
And that's it for today. Chris is back again next weekend. We will see you next “Fox News Sunday.” Thanks for joining us.
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