Democratic Chicago alderman criticizes Mayor Lori Lightfoot over response to federal law enforcement
Protecting our citizens should not be a partisan issue, Chicago Alderman Raymond Lopez tells Martha MacCallum on 'The Story.'
This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 22, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody I'm Martha MacCallum in New York. This is THE STORY as it plays out tonight across America. President Trump's first term candid by calling out carnage in America.
Here he is today with a search of federal law enforcement officers that will go to Chicago and Albuquerque. For now, perhaps more places later followed by the words of two Americans who lost innocent loved ones to this violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No mother should ever have to cradle her dead child in her arms because politicians refused to do what is necessary. For this reason today I am announcing that the Department of Justice will immediately search federal law enforcement officers to the City of Chicago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Children are to be our future. And my 4-year-old son didn't make it to kindergarten. I stand here today as a mother fighting against violence for my son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every time I go to bed. Every time I go out into the driveway that memory comes back and it haunts me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Those stories were hunting today at the White House. The President pushing this effort hearkens back to what some talked about in his inaugural address has a dark side of America. Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Americans want great schools for their children, safe neighborhoods for their families, crime and the gangs and the drugs that have stolen too many lives and rob their country of so much unrealized potential. This American carnage stops right here and stops right now!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So now on the cusp of a new election and a new wave of carnage that followed an economic search, flattened by the virus, economic distress, and now civil unrest. Individuals like this man and woman are making their demands on their government quite clear after they witnessed last night 15 people shot and wounded in their Chicago neighborhood. Listen to their words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was a war out here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The violence is day in and day out. And it's just unnatural with all of this fighting. It is a war zone. To send in federal troops, because really--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: He says this is natural this violence, we need more cops and federal troops in Chicago. It's like we are in Iraq or something. Some suggest their problems are not real. But it is all exaggerated for election-year politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes when you analyze his moods and the words he uses and the decisions he makes that we don't look at it as a play for vote. Per se it might be. But it also might be a play to just not leave. It is something that a lot of people who know more about the rise of authoritarianism and things like it or looking at when it comes to this Presidency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: And the New York Mayor writes to the Attorney General who laid out his battle plan for Urban America Today against the crimes. He said we do not consent do not sent the proposed agent. They have proved to bring way more harm than good.
In less than four months from Americans across this country will weigh in and they all of you, will decide on the next President. So tonight we talked to Raymond Lopez a Democrat Chicago Alderman and Gary McCarthy the Former Superintendent of Chicago Police who will react to this new plan.
We began tonight with Mr. Lopez. Thank you very much, sir, it is good to have you with us this evening. And I want to start by playing this sound bite today from Mayor Lightfoot who you have had a number of run-ins with. Here was her reaction to the plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR LORILIGHTFOOT, D-CHICAGO: That's not democracy that we saw unfolding on the streets of Portland as a result of this federal action. That is what we call Tierney, a dictatorship. And we are not having it in Chicago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: What did you think when you heard that?
RAYMOND LOPEZ, D-CHICAGO 15TH WARD ALDERMAN: No, it is unfortunate because the Mayor has been going back-and-forth with the President who in order to be perfectly honest, I don't agree on many of his policies.
But protecting our citizen should not be a part of partisanship. As a Democrat, seeing my residence, seeing my family is gunned down is not a partisan issue. And for her to go weeks on end tweeting back and forth and making all kinds of comments and then finally admitting yesterday that she is - having the FBI, DEA and ATF come in, those comments that she made, how many lives were lost because of the politics of grandstanding in the City of Chicago?
MACCALLUM: You know it is interesting. I think a lot of people you first got on the radar when that audio leaked of one of the meetings that you had with the alderman and the Mayor. But what I noticed when I went back and looked at it today, was that you were pretty much right on target about what was about to happen? Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOPEZ: My fear is once they are done looting and riding and whatever is going to happen tonight, God help us, what happens when they start going after residents? I want an answer. It is not something you ignore. This is a question that I have.
LIGHTFOOT: I think you are honestly full of - is what I think.
LOPEZ: No offense but--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Wow, you know, I don't know what is going on between you two, but why is she so upset when it is suggested that something should be done to make the cities, streets safer in Chicago?
LOPEZ: Well, I think part of the problem that the Mayor has with me is that I run contradictory to the narrative that she keeps trying to portray that she is in charge and she is in command of the COVID situation, the violence, when it is clearly obvious not only to the residents of Chicago and not only myself and I'm sure the Former Superintendent and the entire nation that our city is in chaos and in turmoil.
When I can tell the Mayor that, I have addressed these issues in my ward. My ward is like the micro - of the City of Chicago we have poverty, we have working class people, we have gangs, we have violence.
We were able to make significant gains in reducing those crimes that's year after year prior to this administration. You know, that message hurts her image. It hurts her personally because it is her micromanaging style. Unfortunately that level of pettiness is causing disaster in the City of Chicago right now.
MACCALLUM: So, we have pictures of - you had your home was broken into, attacked, your office was also had shattered windows and glass. So you have been on the front line in this. But you are a Democrat. She is a Democrat. Who characterizes better where the people of Chicago are on this if that is an assessment that can be made?
LOPEZ: Well, I think you know obviously we're City of Democrats but we're a city of different kinds of Democrats. I'm more of a middle-of-the-road kind of Democrat who believes that we can't have social justice. We can't have good relations with police and we can't have good safety all in the same city.
It is possible and we've done it in my ward. Unfortunately, too many politicians in my city and across this nation find it easier to pander to the lowest common denominator in our society as opposed to challenging people to believe and inspire for something greater.
And I, for one, know that can happen in our city again. We just have to start enforcing laws targeting individuals who will not change helping those people who want to change and knowing we can do better moving forward.
MACCALLUM: That is pretty reasonable message. Alderman Lopez, we thank you very much for coming on tonight. Good to speak to you, sir.
LOPEZ: Thank you Martha.
MACCALLUM: So joining me now Gary McCarthy he Former Superintendent of the Chicago Police Department. Gary, good to have you with us again, what did you make of this announcement from the Attorney General Bill Barr and the Acting Homeland Security Director and the President today on what their plan is for your city?
GARY MCCARTHY, FORMER CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT SUPERINTENDENT: Listen having been through this a number of times, in New York, we had a search with ATF and we had enormous success. In Newark, we had a search with both DEA and the FBI and not only do we make a lot more good drug arrest that made a difference on the street, but the FBI worked with us on a corruption investigations.
And then in Chicago, again, the ATF and the U.S. Marshals Service had a search with us. Again, it contributed to us getting to 50 year lows in the murder rate and in 2013-2014. I think it is a very myopic view. There is a lot of political saber raveling that's going on.
If you snipe at the President in Chicago, you get political points for that. I'm sure the President gets points across the country for sniping. And this is happening in Chicago. So the law enforcement gets caught in the middle and so does the--
MACCALLUM: You know, with regard to what has been said about this, one of the things that doesn't get talked about a lot is gang violence nature of this. And I wonder if you think as someone who has overseen and worked in several cities as you just pointed out, is the protest and everything that is going on tonight that we have seen over the past few months, does that pull police's attention away and allow the gangs to operate with a little bit more freedom?
MCCARTHY: Yes, probably the case, Martha, but there is a much bigger dynamic that's going on for years now when I talk about this frequently. Ever since Ferguson, the police have been on the hills, they have been hamstrung and criminals have been involved in.
And here in Chicago, we're seeing exponentially getting worse on a daily basis. Police officers are devastated. They are afraid to do their jobs because they're getting attacked physically emotionally and politically on a daily basis. Excuse me. So yes, there is a lot of that going on but it is a much bigger issue. This is happening across country.
MACCALLUM: Chad Wolf was on this program last night and here is part of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHAD WOLF, ACTING HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: And so the department because we don't have that local support, that local law enforcement support, we're having to go out and proactively arrest individuals. We need to do that because we need to hold them accountable.
This idea that they can attack that old property and law officers and go to the other side of the street and say you can't touch me is ridiculous. We don't do that in any other type of law enforcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: You have been now critical about some of what has happened in Portland with these officers in camera, right?
MCCARTHY: Absolutely. And again, back to Ferguson, I think I coined the phrase that the police can turn a demonstration into a riot. That is what we did in Ferguson, you know it puts a lot of officers on the front line, confrontation gets met with confrontation.
And going back to the 2012 NATO Summit here in Chicago where my executive staff was a guest. When I said that we're going to come out with - and the regular Chicago Police Uniform, they expected to go right into riot gear. And I said well, if you want to have a riot, let's make sure we do that. And the tactics that we used in Portland, very critical of, as far as the search goes--
MACCALLUM: But look, I just want to put the video up Gary of what happened on Friday night while you finish your thought here because this is what's in people's minds when they think about the attacks on these police officers.
MCCARTHY: Oh, yes, Martha - let's not - let's not confuse ourselves with the issues of not being ready to respond to violence. You know, as I have been saying, you can start out with a soft look but by the same token, you have to be ready to go to battle gear immediately.
We need to have those mobile forces ready in riot gear. I'm talking about what we call a - with chest protectors not just uniforms. And I'm tired of listening to people talk about the police being in riot gear when they are wearing a helmet.
Every police officer in the United States has a helmet and you use it when you need it. That is different than having a mobile task force that has been trained and worked to extract individuals from crowds who are the agitators, which is going to prevent the next incident from happening.
MACCALLUM: Tough times, Gary McCarthy, thank you very much. We will see how this works out and always a pleasure to talk to you too. Thank you very much. So coming up a new report that is just in on what was really going on inside that Chinese Consulate in Houston, brand-new details moments ago, Senator Josh Hawley will respond coming out.
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MACCALLUM: Brand-new reports tonight on what's really going on inside that Chinese Consulate in Houston. Just hours after the U.S. Department ordered it shut down. We saw documents being burned in the courtyard there. Look at that fire there as it lights up in the Houston last night.
NBC News is now reporting that this was a base that was used for spying operations on major U.S. industries, including medical research, oil, natural gas. The FBI was aware of this. They had briefed the President on this. And one thing is clear now, we are, it looks like in terms of our two countries and the relationship, quite a long ways from this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does this change how you feel about President Xi? Is it a change in relationship with him?
TRUMP: Look, I finished a trade deal that everybody said it would be impossible to get and not only was a trade deal it a great deal for this country. That was done months before the virus came. I am not going to say anything. I had a very good relationship. He is a strong man. He is a tough man, but I have very good relationship with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: It appears at this point to be strange, post-virus and that once promising trade deal now appear to be very much on the back burner. Here is the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo earlier today, watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: President Trump has had enough. We are not going to allow this to continue to happen. We are setting up clear expectations how the Chinese Communist Party is going to behave? And when they don't, we're going to take actions to protect the American people, protect our security, our national security and also protect our economy and jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Republican Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri joins me now, Senator good to have you with us tonight. I guess my question is big picture, right? Are we going to look back on this data point of the closing of this Embassy and the burning of those documents has sort of a flash point of an escalation that leads to ultimately either a cold war or God forbid, a hard war with China over of course the next several years?
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY, R-MO.: Well part of standing up to China now, Martha, is to prevent a hot war with them that certainly not what we want but we also can't be pushed around. And look we should be clear about the fact that China is an imperial power that they want to extend their power all around the world.
And there is one nation in particular that stands between them and world domination and that is us. We're not going to be pushed around anymore. Today's action with the Consulate I think sends a clear signal to Beijing we're not going to tolerate their spying, we're not going to tolerate their espionage. We're not going to tolerate their breaking of the United States law. We're going to get tough it's about time.
MACCALLUM: All right, they're working on a trade deal with EU. They have one relationship in Latin America and Africa. They're clearly sort of lining themselves up to be the next world dominant power which has been their desire for quite some time. How do we stop that?
HAWLEY: Well, we stop it by doing what we did today, which is to stand up to them when they cheat, when they lie, it's also to expose their lies globally. For instance what they have lied about all the lies they told with COVID-19, trying to blame the origins of the virus on United States soldiers were having sick, total lie.
That's why I've called for an international commission led by the United States to actually get the evidence to make China pay for what they have done to get reparations. But the truth is, Martha that they are on the back put the Chinese government is. You now have our allies waking up to the fact that UK is kicking out.
Huawei the Chinese Telecom companies kicking out of United Kingdom. We've already taken those actions. China is in trouble here and they know that. That is why they are trying to double down. This is a moment where we have got to stand firm and say that we will not be pushed around. We will stand up for our people.
MACCALLUM: Yes, here is the Former Vice President Joe Biden running for President, of course, on this topic, watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look what he's doing now? He's blaming everything on China. He's blaming everything on the Chinese and people don't make mistakes. As you well know from South Korean and someone from Beijing, they make no distinction, it is Asia. That is the way, he is just using it as a wedge, and he's trying to shift the blame.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Your thoughts.
HAWLEY: You know Vice President Biden has long been at China appeaser. He's long been an appeaser of authoritarian to Beijing. Just earlier this year, he was talking about how China didn't pose a real threat to the United States, I mean, oops, that is not exactly the story of 2020.
We have seen this year what a threat China is to the world. So the Vice President, I think, is radically out of touch with reality on this as so many issues. But it is dangerous him being this out of touch on China. We need somebody, we need leadership that's going to stand up and be strong on China, be strong for American workers, be strong for American security.
MACCALLUM: I just want to play this video. This is 2019 drone video that appears to show blindfolded Uighurs being transported according to one report, from one concentration camp to another. And this is an interview that Bill Hemmer did earlier today with the daughter of someone who is being held in one of these camps. This is really scary video. Listen to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEWHER ILHAM, DAUGHTER OF IMPRISONED UIGHUR: My father is not the only person who is in prison. There are thousands of hundreds of Uighurs just like my father are locked up in a prison or concentration camp.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Her father is a very well-known Economist in China. What do you think when you see that video, and does it change our relationship even more?
HAWLEY: Should change our relationship. It should also inspire us to stand up and hold accountable those American, multinational corporations that have shipped our jobs over to China that are now using these Uighur concentration camps. That is what they are; they are concentration camps using them for cheap labor.
That is one of the reasons Martha, I've launched this campaign called "Slave Free", #SLAVEFREE and I'm challenging all of these American multinationals beginning with the NBA, NIKE and others that make their products in China that use slave labor to pledge that they will be slave free. And I've introduced legislation to make sure it happens.
MACCALLUM: I did read that the NBA is not practicing at one of their training camps in Xingjian anymore, small move but a step in the right direction?
HAWLEY: Well, here is what it would be a real step and would show real progress. Are they willing to actually say that they will not make any NBA apparel in China with forced labor? Are they willing to take the pledge that the league does not rely on slave labor for any of its products? Is Lebron James willing to take the pledge that his NIKE products don't rely on slave labor? That come I think, which showed true progress.
MACCALLUM: It would show that human rights are an issue, a universal issue that hold true. For these individuals who are obviously you know feel very strongly about human rights in this country. Senator Hawley, thank you good to see you tonight.
HAWLEY: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So we're going to dig further into this issue with China because there is a lot of discussion about where our two countries are headed that will probably characterize the next decade of geopolitics.
I will speak with the Secretary of State tomorrow night. Please tune in for that. Also up next, as Mayor De Blasio and the Teachers' Unions say there is not enough money to get ready to open the public school in the United States. They are refusing to let charter school students back into the classroom, despite their pleas to get back to work and hit the books early in August. That is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regarding the children and your family, your son and grandchildren come are you comfortable and do you plan to have them back in person in school?
TRUMP: Yes, I am comfortable with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The radicals want to abolish charter schools and eliminate school choice. I want to expand school choice and every family in America should have that option.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So as many public schools look forward - look toward learning from home, leaving some parents looking for alternatives. Charter schools are private or catholic schools for this fall, New York City's largest charter school network known as "Success Academy" was set to begin their 47 schools in just a few weeks.
They always begin on the third week of August in order to get a jump on the school year. But now the mayor says that they can't enter the building that they share space with, with public schools.
In an op-ed, Jason Riley writes, in many cases, inner city charter schools' students are outperforming their peers in the wealthiest and whitest suburban school districts in the country. In New York City, for example, the Success Academy charter school have effectively closed the academic achievement gap between black and white students.
Success Academy CEO Eva Moskowitz joins me now. Eva, good to have you back on the program tonight. So, you had planned to put 20,000 mostly -- mostly black Latino students. I think the majority are in New York City back into the classroom on August 20th. Why can't that happen?
EVA MOSKOWITZ, CEO, SUCCESS ACADEMY: Well, actually the high schoolers were supposed to start on the 4th of August. The mayor of New York would not give up access. And while we're largely free from government, but not in terms of the buildings. We are co-located, and we need the mayor to allow us to enter.
And so, we are going to -- we're not whiners. We're going to make lemonade out of lemons. We've done remote learning in the spring. And we are going to offer our kids and families a world-class education remotely until we can open.
We have a one-to-one program so all of our kids have devices, tablets with their touch screen. And for the older ones, a laptop. And we're going to make it work.
MACCALLUM: Yes. And these are publicly funded schools. And you are making it work. You've got, everybody has got a device, as you say. What's your biggest fear, your biggest concern about these kids not being able to get into the classroom as planned?
MOSKOWITZ: Well, in person learning is better. Schools, our communities, for the little ones imagine starting kindergarten and you've never been in your classroom. And you get an e-mail address, and you've to do everything in the rectangular box. It's not totally normal if you can say that.
MACCALLUM: Yes, not at all.
MOSKOWITZ: But we are going to make it work. We taught every child to read in the spring remotely. We did world history. We did calculus. All of the kids took their A.P.'s online.
MACCALLUM: Yes, it's remarkable.
MOSKOWITZ: And again, in the building we will make it work.
MACCALLUM: I'm sure you will. You don't have a date for when you're going to be back in the classroom, right? You are waiting for New York?
MOSKOWITZ: We're waiting for government.
MACCALLUM: How many -- do you have -- how many kids are on a wait-list to get into your schools? And have you seen an increase in interest in switching over to your schools?
MOSKOWITZ: We have over 15,000 parents on the wait list. It's one of the saddest things ever. We only have room for about 2,700 children. And actually, the poor performance of the district, you know you sent out links and worksheets, not relate teaching has meant that our demand has actually gone up.
MACCALLUM: Worse, yes. Is the union playing a role in not getting back to school?
MOSKOWITZ: Well, I just think it's a paralysis of government, you know, as a charter, a charter network. We're very agile --
MACCALLUM: Absolutely.
MOSKOWITZ: -- and nimble because we have some basic freedom.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Eva Moskowitz, thank you. Great to see you tonight.
MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Good luck to you. Keep us posted.
MOSKOWITZ: Thank you so much.
MACCALLUM: Coming up, The New York Times out with a scathing piece on one of its former employees, Alex Berenson, accusing him of downplaying the severity of COVID-19 and cherry picking his facts. Tonight, he will respond here live to those allegations for the very first time on THE STORY, next.
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MACCALLUM: New York times railing against one of its former reporters, Alex Berenson, over his critical response to government lockdowns and the media's COVID-19 hike. Writing, Mr. Berenson believes that the impact of the coronavirus is regrettable. Mostly inevitable and overstated that lockdowns are useless, masks don't help, and politicians are too worried about the deaths of old people who are going to die soon anyway.
Mr. Berenson plays down counterevidence, even when it is first-hand or expert, writes the New York Times.
Here now to respond, Alex Berenson, former New York Times reporter and author of "Unreported Truths About COVID-19 And the Lockdowns." Alex, good to see you tonight.
ALEX BERENSON, FORMER REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Hi, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Your response to this piece that was written by Ben Smith of the New York Times.
BERENSON: Martha, honestly, I'm not really that interested in that piece. I have a lot of work to do writing about what's going -- what's happening now with the lockdowns, what we're doing with masks, you know, what's we're doing with vaccine going forward.
There are huge public policy issues here on the table, and I think that that's what we should be focused on it. A number of people have written, you know, pieces about me in the last couple of months because they don't like what I write. I tried to write factual, you know, I tried to link everything to government documents or publish stories or (Inaudible) papers --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: But that's what he's questioning. I mean, he did, he attacked you personally as well. He said you were harried and angry and reveling in the fight. But he also went after you in terms of your sources, saying that you, you know, your writing and your reporting flies in the face of the other wisdom that's out there.
BERENSON: I mean -- I mean, so look, that source, that piece is actually better than a couple of the other pieces that has been written. You know, he said I was aggressive. Yes, I'm aggressive. I'm an investigative reporter.
Like investigative reporters are aggressive. He said I was tall. Guess what, I'm also tall. I'm tall and I'm aggressive and I'm an investigative reporter.
I think what's more interesting here is the way that the Times has sort of turned its guns not just on me but on, you know, on you, on Fox. And there used to be, I think a little bit of a sense in the media. You know, your report the news your way. We'll report the news our way. People can, you know, people can watch both and make decisions.
MACCALLUM: Right.
BERENSON: If the Times is going to start throwing stones about coronavirus courage, there's a lot -- they've made a lot of mistakes in the last couple of months.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
BERENSON: And one reason that reporters don't like me and it's not just the Times, is that I call people out on the stakes. And let me just give you one example. The last time or barely a week ago, a couple of reporters for ProPublica, a reporter from ProPublica, an NBC News, which of course your competition, wrote a story that was headlined all the hospitals in Houston are full.
MACCALLUM: Right.
BERENSON: All the hospitals in Houston are nowhere near full. There are 2,500 empty beds in Houston hospitals right now. That story was what I call panic porn.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
BERENSON: It was deliberately or not. It was an effort it fermented panic and that is wrong.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
BERENSON: And I'm going to call that out on Twitter. I'm going to call that out on your airwaves, I don't care if my friends in the media don't like me anymore because of it.
MACCALLUM: You know, I mean, good for you. And as far as we're -- you know, we're used to it. We get it all the time. So, and we don't care either. So that makes two of us.
But, you know, in terms of like the Houston story, for example. And when I say to people, you know, there was never a ventilator shortage in the United States. There's a lot of people who are shocked to hear that. Because people think that people were --
BERENSON: That's right.
MACCALLUM: -- you know, turned away because they, you know, they died because they couldn't get a ventilator. And you know, a lot of these things that become just sort of common understandings that simply are not true, which is obviously very dangerous here.
But I do want to ask you about what Scott Gottlieb said today. Just in terms of the numbers. Because I want to match what you're seeing with what he is seeing. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER COMMISSIONER, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: In the United States, probably, you know, by the end of the year we could have upwards of 300,000 if we continue on the current trajectory. Right now, we are close to 1,000 casualties a day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, that's a big number, a 1,000 a day. And he says that if we stay on the current trajectory, we could get to 300,000. Does your reporting suggest that that is where we're headed here?
BERENSON: Well, I mean, I think it's too early to tell. OK? You know, in the first and someone with unreported truths which Ben Smith actually mentioned in the Times piece, I said that a worst-case scenario here you could have up to 600,000 deaths.
Most of those deaths if you look at who is dying occur in people who probably would have died by the year-end anyway. And 600,000 might be over two-year period. But could we get to 300,000? I'm not saying that's not impossible.
Here's what I think people need to think about. When scenarios for like influenza pandemics were discussed in the last 15 years, the CDC, the WHO, they talked about in some cases more than two million Americans dying. And even then, they didn't think that mass lockdowns were a good idea.
I'm not saying that 300,000 deaths is anything to take lightly.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
BERENSON: I'm not saying it doesn't mean we shouldn't stand up to hospitals and the nursing homes, but even if we get there, we have to think about the harm that lockdowns do economically, societally, socially, educationally.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
BERENSON: And I don't think it makes me a bad person or lacking empathy as Ben Smith also said, to think that maybe we should think about children and how and what we're doing is affecting them too.
MACCALLUM: Alex, thank you. Alex Berenson always good to talk to you.
BERENSON: Thanks.
MACCALLUM: We'll see you soon.
BERENSON: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: All right. So, the Trump campaign respond to Joe Biden calling the president a racist today, earlier today. We'll talk about that when we come back.
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TRUMP: My vision for American cities could not be more different from the lawlessness being pushed by the extreme radical left.
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MACCALLUM: As President Trump positions himself as the law and order candidate, his campaign has spent millions of dollars on this message.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The radical left-wing march agenda take over our cities, defund the police, pressure more towns to follow, and Joe Biden stands with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: That ad comes as the former vice president walks a delicate line, pushing for calm and violence ridden cities, appealing to black voters, and assuring that he can reform policing while also being tough on crime.
Trump 2020 communications director Tim Murtaugh joins us in moments. But first, Jennifer Palmieri, former communications director for Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign and author of "She Proclaims: Our Declaration of Independence from a Man's World."
Jennifer, good to have you here tonight. Thank you for being here.
JENNIFER PALMIERI, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, OBAMA AND CLINTON CAMPAIGN: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: What is your reaction to that? Do you see this as, you know, an agenda that is framed at scaring people?
PALMIERI: I do. I do fear of that. You know, it's regrettable, but I do fear that that's what the president is doing. It's interesting. I think that he is trying to, he's trying to strike fear in the hearts of some Americans and then at the same time, I see him trying to reach out to some black Americans.
I notice today at the end of his press conference, he talked about how, in his opinion, I don't agree, he's done more for African-Americans than any other president. You know, alongside the times when the Trump campaign has run into ads that you talked about, they're also, I know they're also running ads targeted at trying to reach black voters too.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
PALMIERI: So, I think there it's a -- it's a -- it's a divide and conquer kind of strategy.
MACCALLUM: So, I want to play what Joe Biden said about the president that prompted the response that you just mentioned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: He's spreading of racism, the way he deals with people --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
BIDEN: -- based on the color of their skin, their national origin, where they are from, is absolutely sickening. No sitting president has ever done this. Never, never, never. No Republican president has done this. No Democratic president. We've had racists and they've existed. They've tried to get elected as president. He's the first one that has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: He said the president is racist. The first president in the country's history who is racist. To which the president answered with his response on the economy, prison reform, a number of things that he says a lot of other presidents have tried to do but never accomplished. Is that OK for this candidate, Biden, to call the sitting President of the United States a racist?
PALMIERI: I think so in this case. I'm not sure that you and I will agree on this, but I do believe, Vice President Biden is right. The president very regrettable uses racism and fear to divide the country. And I think he does it to scare people.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Can you give me an example of that of how he's --
(CROSSTALK)
PALMIERI: The caravan that never -- the caravan that never materialized that he said would, I think to try to motivate people to turn out to vote - -
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: There were lots of people that were coming across the border, and they camped out south of the border for months.
PALMIERI: Using the bible to, you know, the -- when he went to the church after tear gassing protesters at the Lafayette Square.
MACCALLUM: How is that racist?
PALMIERI: To suggest that people who protest don't believe in God, I think. I think it's using --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: I think it was because they had burned the part of the church the night before.
PALMIERI: It's using the issue to try to divide people. I think, you know, that's the problem. That's what I've never seen a Republican president in my lifetime who is doing this --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: All I'm saying is -- all I'm saying is that if you are going to call someone a racist you better have some very concrete examples of how they are. It's one of the most serious things that you could call someone in the United States of America.
PALMIERI: I think --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: And obviously, this is a president who uses very strong language about people on his own, it's usually based on the individual rather than, you know, I see it based on the individual. And he is free with his criticism, there is no doubt about that.
PALMIERI: He started his -- he started his campaign saying a lot of rapist -- Mexicans are racist and criminals. You know, he started his campaign with that. Throughout his campaign he has used race to divide and to scare people.
MACCALLUM: All right. Let me just ask you one other thing with regard to your book. "She Proclaims: Our Declaration of Independence from a Man's World." You wrote about the incident between AOC and Ted Yoho who called her very nasty names, including the f word and the b word. What is that incident reveal to you?
PALMIERI: I actually think, you know, it does not, I mean, obviously, she should not have been subjected to that.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
PALMIERI: But my point of the piece was she was very able to deal with it. Right? I think that women, you know, what I want the women watching to know is I think all of us have experienced -- I never thought of myself as somebody as a woman working in the men's world. I just thought it was the world and I was doing great in it.
And at some point, you realize that we're not making progress. We're not breaking through. I worked as hard as the men and yet the men I worked with even though they were really good colleagues to me and really supportive of me, grow as faster than I did.
And I had the epiphany that I'm not doing great in a men's world. I'm doing great making it run and making it run well for them, sort of perpetuating these systems.
And the point of the book is to say, like what's in your own mind that you can change to get yourself out of that rut? And I think Ocasio-Cortez with how she handled the situation with Yoho is a pretty good example of that.
MACCALLUM: Very interesting. OK. Jennifer, thank you very much. Good to have you here. I hope you'll come back and we'll talk more about the election as it moves forward. It's going to be a feisty one. I know you always bring a lot to the table, so I'm glad you're here. Thank you.
PALMIERI: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, also here tonight, Trump 2020 communications director Tim Murtaugh. Tim, thank you for being here as well. Your thoughts on Joe Biden saying that President Trump is the first racist president in this country, which as I said, is an extremely serious thing to level at any one.
TIM MURTAUGH, TRUMP 2020 COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: It is. And it's ridiculous. There is a reason why Joe Biden is doing this. And it's because he knows that he's got a really serious problem with black voters in this election.
All you have to do is take a look at what Joe Biden is doing. When was the last time, Martha, you can remember that a Democrat presidential campaign in a general election was actually running ads aimed at attracting the support of black voters? It's really unheard of. And the reason he's doing that is because he knows his support among black voters in America is soft. And to get --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: I think we have the numbers here. We can put them up. Tim, sorry to interrupt but he does have a smaller lead with black voters than Hillary Clinton did. She was plus 79, he is plus 75. Obviously. a huge margin but a smaller lead. Go ahead.
MURTAUGH: The president -- the president has made great inroads among black voters and among a lot of different voters, Latinos included. And it's because the president has a clear record of support, a clear record of achievement in the black community.
Before the coronavirus crisis interrupted the great economy, it was an all- time low unemployment rate for black voters.
MACCALLUM: That's true.
MURTAUGH: Historic funding for HBCUs, criminal justice reform. Joe Biden, on the other hand is no one to be giving racial justice lectures to. This is a man who has bragged in the past about his great relationships with notorious, racist senators from the past. He bragged about receiving an award for George Wallace.
He eulogized the former exalted cyclops of the KKK, Senator Byrd. No one should be listening to a lecture on racial justice from Joe Biden.
And it's the president, President Trump who has a great record of achievement on behalf of black voters, and that is something that we are very proud of. Joe Biden, he knows he's got a problem with black voters. That's why he's needing to spend money to advertise to black voters, which Democrat presidential candidates never have to do.
MACCALLUM: I think we're all looking forward to these debates. And we hope that they're going to be substantive. But, you know, I think that Joe Biden will have to answer for that charge. And you have to be very specific as I said, it's a very serious charge.
Tim Murtaugh, thank you, sir. Good to see you.
MURTAUGH: Sure. Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Quick break here. More of “The Story” when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So that is the story of Wednesday, July the 22nd, 2020. Thanks for being here tonight. As always, the story goes on. So, we'll be right back here tomorrow one-on-one with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, just back from Copenhagen and London. Good night, everybody. See you tomorrow.
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