Coons says Bobulinski evidence 'flimsy,' 'smacks of desperation'

This is a rush transcript from “The Story with Martha MacCallum" October 22, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome to our two of our democracy 2020 
special coverage. I'm Martha MacCallum.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: And I'm Bret Baier live in Nashville, 
Tennessee, where President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden 
will soon square off for the final time on that stage behind us.

MACCALLUM: Hard to believe the big event tonight. But first, we are going 
to hear live from a man who is really at the center of the story today 
regarding the Hunter Biden emails. Chief White House correspondent John 
Roberts is following this for us tonight, lot of new developments here. 

Good evening, John.

JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Martha and Bret, 
good evening to you. We expect in the next few minutes, it was supposed to 
happen at 6:00 Central Time, which is right about now, but things typically 
don't come off exactly on time when it comes to the White House. We are 
expecting to hear from Tony Bobulinski, who was a business associate of 
Hunter and Jim Biden.

Jim Biden, of course, being Joe Biden's uncle. We have been talking about 
this all day. There is an email that has been talked about for the last few 
days in which Bobulinski and Hunter Biden and Jim Biden are discussing this 
idea of what the percentage cuts will be of the deal of a Chinese energy 
company and of the cuts that are listed, 10 percent is for the big guy.

Tony Bobulinski, in a statement to Fox News earlier today, saying that the 
big guy is referring to Joe Biden. He also goes on to say that the Chinese 
were not interested at least in any kind of financial return on investment. 
They were looking for influence, they were looking for political investment 
as well.

We also understand that Bobulinski when he gives this small statement to 
the press will say at the end of it and this is the White House press pool 
that he will be talking to. I will say at the end of it that he is turning 
all of his electronic devices over to the FBI for examination.

Bret, I said earlier on your program, we don't know if the FBI is 
interested in looking into these devices, but Bobulinski is going to make 
them available.

Interesting to note as well but, Martha, while the Biden campaign has 
portrayed this as a smear, as Russian disinformation, they have not said 
that these emails and these text messages that we have seen from Tony 
Bobulinski are false. And we are not sure exactly what it is that 
Bobulinski will say other than that he's turning his devices over to the 
FBI, but we should find out in the next few minutes or so.

This really will be throwing a new argument into the debate just a couple 
hours before it happens here in Nashville. President Trump has said that he 
wants to bring up Hunter Biden even if the moderator doesn't. Well, this 
will certainly give him reason to do this. We should say though, again, 
that Bobulinski's appearance here is being facilitated by the Trump 
campaign, so this is something that they really are trying to play to their 
advantage here in the last moments before the debate begins.

BAIER: OK, John. Thanks. We'll head back when that happens. We are looking 
live at the JW Marriott where the press pool has gathered and when he walks 
out, we'll head there.

MACCALLUM: We'll take you right to it as soon as that gets send away. In 
the meantime, let's bring in Trump campaign Senior Advisor Lara Trump. 
Lara, good to have you with us this evening. 

What can we expect in this news conference that's just minutes away? What 
do you know?

LARA TRUMP, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISOR: I really don't know a whole lot. 
These are rather new developments. Things are always changing and 
developing on this campaign, but what I can assure you tonight is that if 
the moderator does not bring up these emails that implicate Joe Biden as 
knowing while he was vice president that his name was being used to profit 
for his family to the tune of tens of millions of dollars from foreign 
entities, Donald Trump is going to bring it up because the American people 
deserve to know.

This is an outrageous claim against Joe Biden, as you just heard from John 
Roberts, the Biden team has not denied the validity of these emails and 
that these were from Hunter Biden. So the American people deserve answers 
and they deserve to know quite frankly why Joe Biden has lied about this 
many, many times.

BAIER: We heard a little bit of a Democratic response from Mayor Pete 
Buttigieg earlier in the show, Lara, and it basically went something like 
this, "If you want to ask questions about making money and families, turn 
to the Trump family and why don't you ask about a Chinese bank account 
that's still open, what bank is that at?" That was the response. How do you 
respond to that?

TRUMP: Well, let's be very clear. When Donald Trump took the office of the 
presidency, our family got out of international business. In fact, we said 
we would do no new international business deals. We go so far as to pay the 
treasury any money that comes in from foreign entities to Trump properties. 
That is not something we are required to do, but we do it because we don't 
even want the faintest hint of impropriety.

Donald Trump was a businessman, don't forget, before he became president of 
the United States, and it's just completely legitimate that he was 
obviously looking around the world for business deals and places to invest. 
It's very different than the Biden family, who got into international 
business after Joe Biden became vice president of the United States. Those 
are two very, very different things and I think people are starting to pick 
up on that and very clearly see that Joe Biden could possibly have been 
compromised by foreign entities while he was vice president of the United 
States. And should he even be running as president of the United States, if 
these claims are true?

MACCALLUM: But clearly the parry to that is - and these are very legitimate 
questions, we've been discussing it for the past several days and we are 
waiting for Tony Bobulinski, we are going to see what he has to say about 
all of this. But if the answer, if the Joe Biden retort is going to be "why 
do you have a Chinese bank account?", which they are saying is a secret 
bank account, what's going to be the answer to that? Is there an open 
Chinese bank account and why?

TRUMP: Well, I don't know all of the president's business dealings, but 
this was opened up long before he ever thought about running for president 
of the United States, and I think his attorney has spoken to that. So look, 
it was legitimate from the beginning, it continues to be legitimate. This 
president has stood up against China, very, very strongly and thank 
goodness he has because now we have new trade deals that have been inked 
and are on the horizon.

We know that from the onset of coronavirus, this president was always 
standing up strong against China. We know he stopped travel coming to the 
United States immediately from China at the onset of coronavirus. It's very 
different than I think what we would have seen out of Joe Biden and it does 
beg the question, if he is put up against China, if he is put up against 
Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Russia, where his family has seen very lucrative 
business dealings, how would he react?

BAIER: Lara, what about the tone and tenor for tonight, is it going to be 
different from the president from debate one? There were some concerns from 
inside and outside of the campaign, supporters, who said that maybe his 
style in the first debate turned off some suburban women, in particular.

TRUMP: Well, look, this president is a fighter and I think it's very hard 
to sit there and not respond whenever your opponent, when Joe Biden is 
continuing to lie about the things that this president has achieved for the 
American people, to lie about his policies. He absolutely felt the need to 
respond to those things.

Now we know there is a mute button tonight so it will be a little bit 
different, but I can assure you that if there's any question about the 
things that Joe Biden says about the president, about his policies, about 
what he's done for the American people, the president will respond.

And look, he is a fighter and that is the reason that we have seen, I 
think, such success under President Donald Trump. It takes a fighter to do 
so many of the things that we've seen, to get this economy to the best in 
the world, as we know has happened under this president. The low 
unemployment numbers, high stock market numbers, renegotiating bad trade 
deals, rebuilding our military, doing things like inking these historic 
peace agreements in the Middle East. It takes a fighter to get those things 
done and I think the American people know that about the president.

MACCALLUM: What about health care, will we hear specifics about the 
president's health care plan tonight? How much is he prepared for tonight 
in sort of a typical debate prep? Because we know that last time around, 
there wasn't a lot of that. And he said recently, this is my preparation 
just back and forth with the press every day, was it that kind of 
preparation again this time or was it different?

TRUMP: Well, he does prepare. I mean, he has a team of people, we have a 
great campaign team that does prepare with him. But look, he's always been 
a person that doesn't feel like he needs the excessive preparation that Joe 
Biden needs, because we now know Joe Biden we haven't seen since Sunday. He 
has been at home resting, he has been at home getting ready for this 
debate.

It's a little concerning when you think about someone running for president 
of the United States who doesn't have the stamina to be out on the campaign 
trail like we've seen the president doing and then have the ability to come 
to a debate. It's a 24/7 job when you are president of the United States.

But look, this president has been preparing, he always does. It might not 
be the same way Joe Biden does by staying at home, but I can assure you he 
is prepared for this evening.

MACCALLUM: Lara, thank you.

BAIER: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Lara Trump.

TRUMP: Thank you so much. 

BAIER: Up next, Senator Chris Coons on Joe Biden's preparations for 
tonight's debate here in Nashville, as we await to hear live from the man 
who's really at the center of the Hunter Biden emails story. You're looking 
live at a wall at the JW Marriott. It's not even really a attractive wall.

MACCALLUM: It's not even a little podium, nothing. But as soon as it gets 
underway, we will take you there straight away. But first, we are in music 
city and it has been great to be here the past couple of days in such a 
vibrant, terrific town. 

So we have an original song by John Rich about "yours truly" to take you to 
the break. I haven't actually seen this whole thing. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN RICH, SONGWRITER: This is the songwriter capital of the world. I have 
written a lot of songs, but I thought what rhymes with MacCallum?

MACCALLUM: Well, this has been my problem. I will lose. 

RICH: So before you got here, I put the pen to the paper, I thought really 
long and hard and I've got just - maybe it's a new jingle for your show. So 
what you think, it goes like this. 

(VIDEO PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP) 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) 

BAIER: Well, we just got a five-minute warning to that press conference 
from Tony Bobulinski, again with the Hunter Biden email story. 
 
We are now, as you're looking, live at the JW Marriott again. We now have 
on the record statement from the Biden campaign in preparation for this.

MACCALLUM: Right. 

BAIER: Andrew Bates, the spokesperson, saying this "As Chris Wallace said 
on the air about this very smear, Vice President Biden has actually 
released his tax returns, unlike President Trump and there is no indication 
he ever got any money from anybody in these business deals. Joe Biden has 
never even considered being involved in business with his family, nor in 
any overseas business whatsoever."

MACCALLUM: It goes on to say he has never held stock in any business 
arrangements, nor has any family member or any other person ever held stock 
for him. What is true is that Tony Bobulinski admitted on the record to 
Breitbart that he is angry that he was not able to go into business with 
Hunter and James Biden.

BAIER: Continuing, what is also true is that in contrast to Vice President 
Biden, Donald Trump has a secret Chinese bank account and pays more in 
taxes in China than he pays in federal income taxes in the United States. 
And that this is a desperate, pathetic farce executed by a flailing 
campaign with no rationale for putting our country through another four 
years of hell.

MACCALLUM: So that is the Biden camp response. 

BAIER: Strong letter to follow.

MACCALLUM: Yes, strong letter to follow, as we wait for Tony Bobulinski 
over the next couple of minutes to make an appearance here over at the JW 
Marriott.

But in the meantime, tonight judge Amy Coney Barrett is a step closer to 
becoming the next Supreme Court justice, despite a boycott by every 
Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee that didn't show up. Minority 
Leader Chuck Schumer calls the process illegitimate. Kamala Harris has also 
called it illegitimate. 

Joining us now, Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, who sits on 
that committee. Senator Coons, always good to have you with us. Thank you 
for being here tonight, sir. 

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Great to be on with you, Martha, Bret. I'm sorry 
I'm not in Nashville, but I'm here in D.C. because we are in the middle of 
this process on the judiciary committee. I wish we were working together to 
get another COVID relief package done. That's something I think the average 
American would love to hear tonight, and instead we are here for the 
judiciary committee.

MACCALLUM: Well, we are following that too, and I know there's work towards 
trying to get something resolved on that front as well. But you're someone 
who was always is very respectful of the senate, the way things are done. 
Did it pain you at all to not show up for that vote today given her 
testimony?

BAIER: Oh, it's time, senator. 

COONS: Martha, what--

MACCALLUM: Hold that thought, hold that thought, senator.

BAIER: Sorry about it, we will come right back to you. We promised we would 
go live when this Tony Bobulinski would show up at the JW Marriott. Let's 
listen in.

(BEGIN LIVE TELECAST) 

TONY BOBULINSKI, CEO, SINOHAWK HOLDINGS: --involved in various successful 
businesses, both in this country and abroad. I'm making the statement to 
set the record straight about the involvement of the Biden family, Vice 
President Biden, his brother Jim Biden, and his son hunter Biden. In 
dealings with the Chinese.

I've heard Joe Biden say that he's never discussed business with Hunter. 
That is false.

I have first hand knowledge about this because I directly dealt with the 
Biden family, including Joe Biden. I have also heard the Vice President 
Biden said on Tuesday, that Senator Ron Johnson, the chair of the Senate 
Homeland Security Committee, should be ashamed for suggesting that Biden 
family sought to profit from their name.

Well, here are the facts, I know. And everything I'm saying is corroborated 
by emails, WhatsApp chats,, agreements, documents and other evidence and 
American people can judge for themselves.

I brought, I guess, for record, three phones that spanned the years 2015 to 
2018. These phones have never been held by anybody else besides myself. I 
was told this past Sunday by somebody who was also involved in this matter 
that if I went public with this information, it would bury all of us, man. 
The Bidens including.

I have no wish to bury anyone. I've never been political. The few 
contributions I have made have been the Democrats. But what I am is a 
patriot, and a veteran, to protect my family name and my business 
reputation, I need to ensure that the true facts are out there.

In late 2015, I was approached by James Gilliar, whom I had known for many 
years, about joining him in a deal which he said would involve the Chinese 
state-owned enterprise, CFC China, energy, and what he called one of the 
most prominent families in the United States. I was informed first by 
Gilliar, and then by Hunter Biden, and by Rob Walker, who was working with 
the Bidens that the Bidens wanted to form a new entity with CFC, which was 
to invest in infrastructure, real estate, and technology in the U.S. and 
around the world. And the entity would initially be capitalized with $10 
million, and then grow to billions of dollars of investment capital.

After months of discussion, I agreed to Gilliar and Hunter Biden's request 
to become CEO of the entity to be called Sinohawk, sino representing the 
Chinese side, hawk, representing Hunter Biden's brother Beau's favorite 
animal. And between February and May 2017, we exchanged numerous emails, 
documents and WhatsApp messages concerning Sinohawk and its potential 
business. 

On May 2, 2017, the night before Joe Biden was to appear at the Milken 
conference, I was introduced to Joe Biden by Jim Biden and Hunter Biden. At 
my approximately hour long meeting with Joe, that night, we discussed the 
Biden's history, the Biden's family business plans with the Chinese, with 
which he was plainly familiar, at least at a high level. After that 
meeting, I had numerous communications with Hunter, Walker, Gilliar and Jim 
Biden regarding the allocation of the equity ownership of Sinohawk.

On May 13, 2017, I received an email concerning allocation of equity, which 
says 10 percent held by H for the big guy. In that email, there's no 
question that H stands for Hunter; big guy for his father, Joe Biden; and 
Jim for Jim Biden. In fact, Hunter often referred to his father as the big 
guy or my chairman.

On numerous occasions, it was made clear to me that Joe Biden's involvement 
was not to be mentioned in writing, but only face to face. In fact, I was 
advised by Gilliar and Walker that Hunter and Jim Biden were paranoid about 
keeping Joe Biden's involvement secret. I also had a disagreement with 
Hunter about the funds CFC was contributing to Sinohawk.

Hunter wanted in 5 million of those funds to go to himself and his family. 
So he wanted the funds wired directly to an entity affiliated with him. I 
objected because that was contrary to our written agreements, concerning 
Sinohawk. He said referring to the chairman, his father, that CFC was 
really investing in the Biden family that he held the trump card and that 
he was the one putting his family legacy on the line. He also said to me on 
May 17, 2017, that CFC wanted to be my partner, to be partnered with the 
Bidens.

During these negotiations, I repeated to Hunter and others that Sinohawk 
could not be Hunter's personal piggy bank. And I demanded the proper 
corporate governance, procedures be implemented for capital distributions. 
Hunter became very upset with me. CFC through July 2017 was assuring me, 
the funds would be transferred to Sinohawk, but they were never sent to our 
company. Instead I found out from Senator Johnson's September report that 
the $5 million was sent in August 2017 to entities affiliated with Hunter.

Tomorrow, I will be meeting with the senate committee members concerning 
this matter. And I will be providing to the FBI the devices which contain 
the evidence corroborating what I've said, so I will not be taking any 
questions at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you will be taking questions?

BOBULINSKI: I will not be taking questions at this time. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we are going to have them any way. Could you tell 
us a little bit more about the evidence that you are giving to the FBI?

BOBULINSKI: The evidence sits on these three phones. I don't want to go 
into anything any further. This will all be discussed with Senator Johnson 
and his committee and American people can decide what's fact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who paid for you to be here? Who paid for your expenses 
to be here?

BOBULINSKI: Thank you.

(END LIVE TELECAST) 

BAIER: Tony Bobulinski in the JW Marriott talking to press pool there about 
business dealings he had with Hunter Biden, in which he says that Joe Biden 
is not telling the truth when he says he never talked to his son about 
business. In fact he has proof and he's handing over these three phones to 
the FBI.

MACCALLUM: Yes. He also said something very interesting towards the end 
which had to do with this $5 million, sort of an initial seed investment 
from the Chinese as he tells it. And he says that it was supposed to go 
into Sinohawk into their shared entity, but it went into a fund that was 
controlled by Hunter Biden.

He says he was concerned that that fund was going to become a piggy bank 
for Hunter Biden and he was not happy with that. So he found out about that 
in September from Ron Johnson as part of their investigation, which may be 
the answer to the question "Why are we just hearing from Tony Bobulinski 
and what forced him to come out with more of this story?"

BAIER: I think we still have Senator Coons, is that correct? 

COONS: Yes, you do, Bret. 

BAIER: Senator Coons, you are with us. You heard all of that. Obviously you 
have heard the former vice president say what he said in the statement that 
the Biden campaign put out today. What's your reaction?

COONS: Well, for your viewers who didn't hear that statement, the former 
Vice President Joe Biden said that "We all know his finances and his 
taxes". Joe Biden has been completely transparent with the American people, 
Donald Trump has not. We don't know the full extent of President Trump's 
holdings, his tax liability, the idea that perhaps he has a secret account 
in China and paid more to China in income taxes than he did to the United 
States was one of the things pointed out by the Biden campaign.

This is a matter that has been investigated over and over. And I seriously 
wonder if 12 days before a presidential election, where more than half the 
states are already voting and we have got Rudy Giuliani with one hand 
coming up with a hard drive and a computer, and this gentleman in the other 
hand coming up with last-minute cell phones, most of which aren't being 
sourced, aren't being verified, even Fox News hasn't verified the Giuliani 
allegations.

I frankly have to ask, is this seriously what we are going to do? To me, it 
seems like distraction and spectacle when the average American who is 
tuning in tonight to hear these gentlemen on the stage, want to know not 
about their families but about the Middle American families who have been 
impacted by this pandemic and recession.

We have got 8 million Americans infected, more than 220,000 American 
families have lost a loved one. And on that stage tonight, Joe Biden is 
going to lay out a clear and positive plan for how to get us out of this 
mess, this pandemic and recession and division that Donald Trump has led us 
into. That's what I think is going to matter to your viewers and the 
American people about tonight's debate.

MACCALLUM: Just one more round on this. I know that these other issues are 
also, obviously very important to the American people. But one of the 
things that Joe Biden has been clear about on the campaign trail is that he 
said he had never discussed any of these business arrangements or 
propositions with Hunter ever.

And then you hear this man, this former navy lieutenant who says that that 
is not true, that he spoke about these business deals China personally with 
Joe Biden. So are you saying you don't believe this man? You think he's 
lying?

COONS: I'm saying I've literally just heard of him now for the first time 
and Ron Johnson, senator from Wisconsin, spent millions of dollars in 
months of senate time investigating these matters. It seems awfully late to 
me for this flimsy evidence to be brought forward and we will see what 
comes of it.

But I frankly think what matters is that Joe Biden is a man of compassion 
and character who I've known for 30 years and who is capable of leading our 
country forward with a positive vision for how to bring us together and get 
us out of this pandemic and recession. That's what I think is going to 
decide the election. And I frankly think this last-minute press conference 
smacks of desperation.

BAIER: OK, Senator. We're going to end where we began, and that is you're 
on the Senate Judiciary Committee, you did not go to that hearing. You did 
question Judge Barrett several rounds, but yet you didn't cast a vote about 
moving that nomination on or not. You didn't vote no. Were you kind of, as 
Martha was saying, you're somebody who respects the process, respects the 
senate, were you embarrassed by that today?

COONS: Bret, I wasn't embarrassed by that today. Frankly, Chairman Lindsey 
Graham, I think, should be embarrassed that he broke the rules of the 
committee in order to force this nomination to the senate. As you well 
know, there's no precedent in American history for the senate voting on a 
Supreme Court nominee 12 days before a presidential election, where a 
majority of states are already voting.

This is something that we did, the senate judiciary Democrats, just to show 
that we don't accept the legitimacy of this timing and this process. I did 
participate in questioning Judge Barrett because I thought it was important 
for the American people to hear, based on her writings as a judge and as a 
law professor, about her views and how she is to the right of Justice 
Scalia and what the consequences may be of her being put on the court.

BAIER: Well, senator, we appreciate your time always here for coming on.

COONS: Thank you, Bret.

BAIER: We would love you to put in a good word for us with Joe Biden and 
Kamala Harris.

COONS: Sure. Thank you. 

BAIER: Thank you, sir. 

MACCALLUM: That's two promises. 

BAIER: Yes, two promises. 

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Good to have them on.

All right. Coming up next, we hear from Republican Senator Ted Cruz of 
Texas as our special two-hour ramp up for the big debate tonight continues.

BAIER: But first, a look at Belmont University, gorgeous place, host of 
tonight's debate. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

BAIER: Belmont University's campus in downtown Nashville is stunning. The 
trees, they even have a rose garden with more than 200 varieties of roses. 
It's a gorgeous place, 8,200 students here. It has played host to a debate 
before, 2008 between John McCain and Barack Obama. Now, this week, it's our 
home, our set is here and obviously the big debate tonight. Our show 
continues after this. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM:  So as the Senate judiciary committee advances the Supreme Court 
nomination of Judge Amy Coney Barrett with Democrats boycotting that 
proceeding, the Senate is preparing for a full floor vote on Monday. 

BAIER:  Joining us now this evening Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz sits 
on that committee, he's the author of a new book as well "One Vote Away:  
How a Single Supreme Court Seat Can Change History." 

Senator, thanks for being here. We want to talk about the judge and moving 
that nomination along but I also want to talk to you about this Tony 
Bobulinski press conference we just watched and what do you think that 
means for this race? You heard the Biden response was Senator Coons and 
others, what do you say? 

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX):  I thought that press conference was remarkable and 
it obviously raises serious questions about whether Joe Biden has 
personally enriched himself, whether he's been paid millions from communist 
China. The allegation is that he had a secret share potentially in this 
business deal that Hunter Biden held for him, I think those questions need 
to be answered and they need to be answered seriously. 

And two things strike me. Number one, it's worth underscoring what makes 
this story significant is not Hunter Biden. Hunter by all accounts has led 
a troubled life. But it is Joe Biden and the potential of Joe Biden's 
personal corruption that is being alleged here. 

Secondly, and I just checked a minute to go, as I understand it, Fox News 
is the only network that actually covered that press conference. CNN didn't 
cover it, MSNBC didn't cover it, ABC, CBS, NBC, none of them covered it. 
And it's part of a pattern. 

It's part of a pattern we saw last week when the New York Post broke the 
story and big tech, Twitter and Facebook censored it and essentially 
determined that the American people could not even hear the facts. And I 
think the degree to which the media and big tech are shilling for Joe Biden 
are protecting him, are covering him up, not even asking these questions I 
think is really shameful. 

MACCALLUM:  Senator Cruz, when you look at the statement that came out from 
the Biden campaign it essentially alludes to the fact that he says he was 
never involved in these business deals and that he never owned any stock in 
any of these ventures. Does that language sound careful to you as an 
attorney? 

CRUZ:  It clearly is drafted carefully saying he didn't own stock -- well, 
the allegation I just heard which was news to me tonight was that Hunter 
Biden was holding the percentage for his dad. Now that is, if you're 
essentially, you know, using a strawman then the question is -- is Joe 
Biden, was he personally enriching himself from communist China? 

And as far as I can tell, Joe Biden hasn't answered that question, I 
haven't seen anyone ask him that question. I mean, what was stunning, the 
day the story broke in the New York Post, ABC hosted a town hall with Joe 
Biden and they didn't even ask him the question. They're not, the media is 
not even pretending to do their job and I think that's really dangerous, 
particularly when you combine it with big tech censorship where what is at 
stake in the selection is really fundamental about whether we are going to 
preserve our freedoms and our constitutional liberties. 

BAIER:  I think the New York Post Twitter account is still locked out, but 
we'll check that this hour.

CRUZ:  Yes.

BAIER:  But as far as how much the president should talk about it on this 
debate stage tonight, Senator, there are some Republicans worried that he 
needs to talk more about families, economy, jobs, stuff that he's winning 
on and some of these key polls like our recent poll in the battleground 
states. 

CRUZ:  Yes. Well, Bret, I very much agree with that. I hope tonight what 
the president does is lays out competing visions for America and makes 
clear that what President Trump and Republicans are looking to do is reopen 
the economy, let small businesses reopen, let people go back to work, let 
them provide for their families.

And what Joe Biden and the Democrats are proposing and what the Democratic 
governors are implementing is shutdowns that are destroying millions of 
small businesses. 

You know, I listened to your interview with Chris Coons, and I like Chris, 
I served with him on judiciary and he talked about how he wished Congress 
was doing something for COVID relief, and I had to admit I kind of felt 
nervous that lightning was going to strike him. Because he and every other 
Senate Democrat yesterday filibustered a $500 billion COVID relief plan and 
they don't get to filibuster emergency COVID relief to help small 
businesses reopen to help parents get their kids back in school. And then 
to go on TV and complain that nothing is passing. They are the ones 
blocking it. 

I mean, it really, and again, the media doesn't report on a word of it and 
it's really not doing the job journalists are supposed to be doing. 

BAIER:  Well, Senator, we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

MACCALLUM:  Thanks, Senator.

So, an unexpected guest as we've been talking about at tonight's debate, a 
former business partner of Hunter Biden's who says that the whole family 
benefited from this China business deals. National security adviser Robert 
O'Brien on the implications of that when he joins us here from Nashville. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM:  We are in Belmont University getting ready for the big debate 
this evening between President Trump and the former Vice President Joe 
Biden. 

Joining us now from Nashville is the U.S. national security adviser to the 
president, Robert O'Brien. Sir, very good to have you with us tonight. 
Thank you for being here. 

ROBERT O'BRIEN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER:  Great to be with you, 
Martha and Bret. 

MACCALLUM:  So, I'd like to ask you first of all, Because we just got this 
news conference from Tony Bobulinski, a former naval lieutenant -- and from 
your perspective one of the question is, does this put the Biden family in 
a difficult position if he were to become president with regard to 
relations with China? 

O'BRIEN:  Well, I think and I don't know all the facts and all the 
allegations that are taking place, they seem to be bubbling up pretty fast 
and furiously regarding Hunter Biden and the former vice president while 
the former vice president was in office. 

But what is consistent is this sort of behavior and what the Chinese have 
done for many, many years with American politicians and elites is offering 
them financial incentives, offering them business incentives, trying to 
influence mayors or congressmen or elected officials by providing Chinese 
businesses to their districts and using that to gain influence over the 
United States.

This is a long pattern of Chinese activity and from what these allegations 
are it sounds consistent. I assume the news media will at least I hope 
they'll investigate and get to the bottom of it, I also understand there is 
an FBI investigation, I understand this from just the open source press, 
that there is an FBI money laundering investigation into these allegations, 
and so I think we'll get to the bottom of it. 

But it's entirely consistent with how China has used its influence whether 
money or blackmail or fawning press or that sort of thing to influence 
American politicians, and it's something we have to be very concerned 
about. 

BAIER:  And we'll continue to follow it here. I want to ask about the 
interference in the election and we had the director of national 
intelligence, the FBI director talk about Russia and Iran. Are there other 
countries as well doing that? Which one is posing the biggest problem 
tonight? 

O'BRIEN:  There are. I think, look, the Iranians are the most recent to 
have engaged in this activity that was exposed by Director Wray and 
Director Ratcliffe and I commend them and their teams and our intelligence 
services for uncovering it, uncovering it quickly. And then for the 
administration coming forward and being transparent because we think 
transparency is the best deterrent to this sort of activity in the future.

And so, the Iranians understand that we are very unhappy with this and 
there will be consequences for Iran as a result of it. But it's also 
Russia, it's China, as Attorney General Barr said recently China, you know, 
it attempts to influence American politicians, the American political 
system and our elections, it's an order of magnitude higher than what the 
Russians or the Iranians have done.

And I can also tell you -- I can't tell you the names of the countries but 
there are two or three other countries that we are keeping close tabs on 
and that we're concerned about their efforts to try to influence our 
elections. 

One point I do want to make, Bret, is that our elections, if you cast a 
vote your vote is going to get counted. We're hardened our election 
infrastructure. We've spent hundreds of millions of dollars doing so. We're 
working with secretaries of state and lieutenant governors who handle the 
election state wide across all 50 states.

I was just in Iowa and met with the Iowa National Guard and their cyber 
unit is stood up and these men and women are working with the Iowa 
secretary of state, for example, to make sure that the elections are free 
and fair and can't be compromised by adversaries. 

So, we are confident in what we can do to protect the American people and 
protect our elections but it's concerning when we see foreign actors trying 
to get involved to either influence Americans or to interfere with the 
actual election day activities of our citizens. 

MACCALLUM:  So, before we let you go, national security is one of the 
bucket of questions this evening, what is the question that you think is 
most important to address with regard to our nation's national security at 
this point? 

O'BRIEN:  Well, I think the president should just be asked to address the 
accomplishments, he's done more in the past three and a half years than 
most presidents have done in two terms. I mean, we brought peace to the 
Middle East, we've defeated the ISIS caliphate, we brought justice to 
Baghdadi. We just brought the Beatles on and we're going to prosecute them 
for the death of Kayla Mueller and the other Americans, Sotloff, Foley, and 
Kassig. 

We brought peace to the Middle East through the Abraham accords bringing 
Bahrain and UAE and diplomatic relations and really an alliance with 
Israel. We're going to have more -- we're going to have more news on the 
Abraham accords in the not-too-distant future, as other countries, the 
momentum builds to have peace in the Middle East. 

We ended the JCPOA which the Obama-Biden administration had supported and 
gave $150 billion to the Iranians which they in turn used on proxy wars 
across the Middle East. 

On big power competition we put tariffs on China and stood up to China for 
the first time in 40 years. We've rebuilt the military. We've gotten our 
allies to pay $400 billion more in NATO defense spending over the next 10 
years and to contribute troops to Afghanistan and Iraq and the president is 
ending our forever wars. 

So, you know, you look at that record, it's pretty -- it's pretty amazing, 
it's pretty unbelievable and then you put the trade agreements on top of 
it, USMCA, the agreements that I was just in Brazil to witness the signings 
of this past week. 

It's really a tremendous record and I hope the president gets a chance to 
talk about it and compare it to what the Obama-Biden administration did, 
and what Joe Biden's position were. It's a pretty devastating comparison 
when you look at what the president has done for this country over the past 
four years. 

BAIER:  He controls those two minutes, so we'll next see if he takes your 
advice. 

MACCALLUM:  The whole bucket right there.

BAIER:  So, we got -- we got a lot of buckets there. Robert O'Brien, 
national security adviser --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM:  Thank you, sir.

BAIER:  -- we appreciate your time. 

O'BRIEN:  Great to be with you. Thank you.

MACCALLUM:  Coming up, Karl Rove, Katie Pavlich -- good to have you with 
us. Karl Rove, Katie Pavlich, and Donna Brazile live from music city after 
a quick break. Stay with us.

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BAIER:  A little over an hour away until Vice President Joe Biden and 
President Trump face off their final debate, Decision day just 11 days from 
now. 

MACCALLUM:  I can't believe it.

BAIER:  In an article entitled you won't see an election like this again, 
one of our next guests writes, in less than two weeks the voting will end. 
We all have our guesses as to what will happen. But with so many of the 
normal markers broken or unavailable, so much new and unknown, we're in 
largely uncharted territory. 

MACCALLUM:  Let's bring in that panel, Karl Rove, former deputy chief of 
staff to President George W. Bush, Katie Pavlich, news editor, and Donna Brazile, former interim chair of the Democratic 
National Committee.

So, Karl, since we started off with a piece from your piece, obviously we 
are in difficult uncharted water all throughout 2020. How does it stack up 
for you tonight? 

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, I'm going to be very interested in 
how this plays out because this is a chance for both candidates to lay out 
their narrative, their theme, if you will, for the last dozen days of the 
campaign. We're going to -- we'll see if they lay something out tonight and 
then follow it through between now and election day. 

These debates always -- if you have a surprise it tends to have a bigger 
impact. If there's a surprise in the debate and maybe we'll see something 
tonight in the way of tone or a response, or attack that's going to be 
unusual. But I'll be watching for those surprises. 

And finally, we've had the precursor, we've had the pre-debate appearance 
of somebody who accuses Hunter Biden of referring to his father as the big 
men and wanting to get a piece of the action with a Chinese energy company. 
We'll see if that emerges in the debate tonight and whether or not the 
broader issue pops up of does Joe Biden really think his son never did 
anything wrong in his dealings with Burisma at all.

BAIER:  Yes.

ROVE:  I suspect whether we think it's a good idea, or a bad idea, it's 
going to be there tonight. 

BAIER:  Yes, I don't think there is no if, whether it's coming out. Donna, 
can this debate for either really move the needle when it comes to voters. 
There's already 47 million people in America have already voted. 

DONNA BRAZILE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, as you know, most Americans 
have made up their mind and there's only a small slice of the universe that 
still undecided. So, yes, perhaps they can persuade 3 to 5 percent of the 
American people that hey, it's time to get out there and vote. 

I hope tonight we hear the final closing arguments, the president he has 
recovered from COVID. We know that most Americans have not. And so in terms 
of the economy, in terms of their own conditions, so tonight is a great 
opportunity for both candidates to lay out their vision and how we move 
forward. 

MACCALLUM:  Katie, the last round was chaotic. What do you think the 
president needs to do tonight? 

KATIE PAVLICH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, look, I think President Trump 
and the campaign have made it clear that he may allow Joe Biden to speak 
more without so much interruption. But I have no doubt that President Trump 
will come in tonight and be very tough on Joe Biden and try to pin him 
against the wall on a number if issues that he finds to be important 
including again painting him as a corrupt politician. 

I think we saw the October surprise from the Trump campaign tonight when 
you had Tony Bobulinski, a former Hunter Biden business associate coming 
out and not taking issue with Hunter Biden, but taking issue with Joe Biden 
saying that he never spoke about his business dealings with Hunter Biden, 
that he wasn't involved with these things. 

His issue is not with Hunter. It's with Joe Biden saying the opposite of 
what he portrays on all of this information, and data, and phones, and 
WhatsApp messages, e-mails and text messages that he has presented. 

So I'm sure President Trump will bring that up and I'm sure he'll bring up 
a number of things when it comes to Vice President Joe Biden's record 
during the Obama administration and whether the country wants to go back 
again to four or eight years of those kinds of policies or if they want to 
look at why they elected him in 2016 on very tight margins to put the 
country in a different path. 

BAIER:  Karl, I've got 15 seconds here. Is the president hitting for a 
specific demographic and trying to reach voters tonight? 

ROVE:  Well, he should be thinking about suburban undecided, and he should 
be thinking also about the people who are less likely to vote unless he 
gives a concrete reason to do so, who sort of like what he's done but 
aren't really politically connected. And that picking what that issue is, 
is going to be important. I think it has more to do with the economy than 
it does with anything else. 

BAIER:  All right. That was '16, good job. All right. We will see you guys 
later. That's it for our special two-hour presidential debate preview. 
Coming up, Tucker Carlson continues our pre-debate programming. 

MACCALLUM:  Please stay with us at 9 p.m. Eastern for the final debate 
between President Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden. I'm Martha 
MacCallum. 

BAIER:  And I'm Bret Baier. Good evening from Nashville.

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