Chief ObamaCare architect adds insult to injury

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," December 9, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle, along with Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City -- and this is "The Five."


GUILFOYLE: Happy Monday, everyone.

Now, at this point, everyone knows the president lied to the American people when he promised you could keep your doctor and your health care plan. Now, adding insult to injury, one of the key ObamaCare architects is now saying, sure, you can keep your doctor, if you can afford it.


CHRIS WALLACE, "FOX NEWS SUNDAY" ANCHOR: It is a simple yes or no question. Did he say if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor?

EZEKIEL EMANUEL, CHIEF OBAMACARE ARCHITECT: Yes. But, look, if you want to pay more for an insurance company that covers your doctor, you can do that. This is a matter of choice. People are going to have a choice as to whether they want to pay a certain amount for a selective network or pay more for a broader network.

WALLACE: The president guaranteed me I can keep my doctor.

EMANUEL: Under president -- and if you want to, you could pay for it.


GUILFOYLE: Just when you thought this disease couldn't get any worse, and there are a number of disturbing reports in the papers today. "The New York Times," quote, "On health exchanges, premiums may be low but other costs can be high." "Wall Street Journal" today, quote, "High deductibles fuel new worries of health-law sticker shock." And "The Financial Times" is reporting, quote, "New affordable care U.S. health plans will exclude top hospitals."

Just when you thought the news couldn't get worse, it, in fact, has.

So, Eric, is this big trouble for the administration?

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Monday edition.

GUILFOYLE: This is one in day we are getting all of this.

BOLLING: The Monday edition of facts for stubborn liberals, the first one being the Harvard study, I think it came out Thursday or Friday saying for 18 to 25-year-olds, 60 percent of them said they are very unlikely, likely or unlikely to sign up for ObamaCare.

And there is a problem: buried in the law, you go through deductibles -- by the way, the first time we mentioned deductibles was probably the first time they were mentioned on TV, the October 21st, we were talking about soaring deductibles. October 21st, look it up.

And now, it's on the front page of "The New York Times" and "The Wall Street journal". Watch "The Five."

Talk about one more thing, in the law. If you are a 21-year-old making $30,000, and a 61-year-old making $30,000 a year, with the subsidies, the 21-year-old is going to pay $1,635 a year premium, not deductible, same deductibles on both, $1,635, and the 61-year-old is going to pay $867.

Is there a reason that the 21-year-old pays more than two -- almost two and a half times what the 61-year-old pays? There is absolutely no reason, but what it's going to do, it's going to drive young people away from ObamaCare. They are just not going to do it.

GUILFOYLE: They're going to run screaming, like from a burning building, Greg. I hope you didn't have that line written down?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Remember when they told us -- when we were told the old plans were worse, remember that?


GUTFELD: Yes. Now, to paraphrase The Who, meet the new plans are worse than the old plans. The only thing that's -- this is surprising to Obama that this is so bad. But the Gutfeld role is that everything government touches becomes 10 percent as effective as before. It is a confidence removal machine.

ObamaCare is the Taco Bell of democracy. Everyone indulging has back end problems.

BOLLING: Yes, but it's so good, though.

GUILFOYLE: Why are you talking about --


GUTFELD: It's immediately good and then you are stuck in one place for quite a while. I won't get into it. I won't get (INAUDIBLE).

GUILFOYLE: No one can get into the bathroom around here.

All right. Dana, so how do they clean up this message? Where do they go from here? I mean, if you are Jay Carney, are you crying with your blankie in the corner begging for your mom to help you?

PERINO: Well, we probably have one of those nights where he thought, well, I better be ready for tomorrow, because here with go with another week of these type of problems. But the communications problems are deeper, they are newly policy problems. I find Ezekiel Emanuel to be refreshingly honest. But he is refreshingly honest four years late.

If he had said that -- mic, I'm sorry. That was my mic.

If Ezekiel Emanuel and the president had been saying what he was just saying on "FOX NEWS SUNDAY" yesterday, if he had said that during the campaign to try to pass the law, and they were honest about what it was going to be, and people made the decision that, you know what, given all of that, understanding it all, we still think that it's worth it, I think that would be -- that would have been a better way to -- then you don't have to clean up a communications problem.

What he said, though, is that Americans are expected to read the fine print. You know when you get your credit card bill and there is like there is all the tiny fine print and nobody reads it, it all goes in the trash can. But, apparently, he thinks Americans should have read all of that, even though many people on the Hill didn't even brother to read the bill before they passed it.

So, their communications problem has only exacerbated by the fact that they have a fundamental policy problem that they cannot improve unless they do something very drastic.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, the communication problem is exacerbated by their incompetence.

BOLLING: I'm sorry, Bob, can I just -- Dana, I have -- I agree with everything you said with the exception with one thing, Ezekiel Emanuel isn't being honest. He is covering up for President Obama's dishonesty, for Jay Carney's dishonesty, for Kathleen Sebelius' dishonesty.

You can't keep your doctor, period. You can't keep your plan, period. There will be insurer bailouts, period.

And all Ezekiel Emanuel was doing is coming back after the fact saying, well, he didn't mean to say that, what he really meant to say you can keep it if you want to pay more. And don't forget, President Obama was up for re-election when he was saying that. So, a lot of people may have voted for him based on keep your doctor, period, keep your plan, period.

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: I highly doubt that.

BOLLING: Really?

BECKEL: That they voted on him because of the health plans. I don't think so.

But let me make a couple of points if I could. The 18 to 25-year-olds, 60 percent said they won't sign up. They don't have to because they are on their parent's plan. Thanks to ObamaCare.

And the plans -- new health plans are far superior to the ones we had before. The problem is they're too expensive, I agree with you. But the fact of the matter is, they are far, far superior. For those --

PERINO: How do you know that? How do you know that, Bob?

BECKEL: Preexisting conditions are included. Going to rehabs are included.

PERINO: Right. Could you --

BECKEL: Psychiatric care is included. You're going down the list of things --

GUTFELD: Those are the Bob Beckel amendments.

BECKEL: That's exactly right.

GUILFOYLE: But Bob doesn't worry about the fact that we can't pay for it. How does superior if no one can get it. Oh, I can't wait to pay for all of these items, but I can't afford them, I can't have them.

BECKEL: It's going to be more costly, that's correct. There is a cost to doing something like this.

GUILFOYLE: Cost factors into that assessment.

BECKEL: Yes, it's like saying, you know, that Ferrari is far superior to that Chevy Volt. Yes, well, we know it. It's 10 times more expensive.

However, if you are selling a plan, the Ferrari plan, and you are delivering the Chevy Volt, that's basically what you are saying.


BECKEL: The other thing is that it is true, the competition in some of the marketplaces are in the stakes beginning to lower rates. You know rates went up 80 percent out of George Bush's two terms, 80 percent.

GUILFOYLE: I let Dana responds to that.

PERINO: Here's the thing -- I don't think that any particular president can be blamed for health care costs rising. That is a complicated mixed of improved technologies and legal issues, the insurance piece of it.

I can't hear you. What? I don't know. Anyway, I will pass since I can't talk well into the microphone.

BECKEL: I don't disagree with you. The presidents don't have responsibility for that. The insurance companies do, they have been gouging for that for years.

And, you know -- I mean, the fact of the matter is, why they give insurance companies so much, I don't know. But --

GUTFELD: You know, you keep saying they gouge. Their profits are so slim. Also, Emanuel made this point that this is about more choice is expensive, he's not offering more choice, he is actually limiting the choice of Americans to -- why are people talking to me?

GUILFOYLE: I don't know.

GUTFELD: I don't know what's going on.

GUILFOYLE: No one is talking to me.

GUTFELD: All right. My point is this. ObamaCare was about denying choice by giving a one-size-fits-all plan so you have an old man paying for maternity care. That is not choice. That's why it's expensive.

If you're actually offered real choice, real options, you can have the Volt, if you want. You can have something else.

BECKEL: I'm willing to bet you that your plan right now, look at your plan, I bet your plan has maternity care in it?

GUTFELD: I wish it did.

GUILFOYLE: Go ahead.

BOLLING: But here's Obama. And the first shoe to drop was the Web site. It was broke. They couldn't figure it out. They're getting it back online. The second shoe to drop was going to be deductibles.

I will guarantee you as my -- I will bet you any amount you want, Bob, that they fail at the number of young people signing up for ObamaCare now, what they predicted before, even what they predict right now, if they drop the number, they will still fail because young people will not --

PERINO: You forgot the third shoe.

BECKEL: Young people are in their parents plan.

BOLLING: Bob, if you are putting out $1,500 a year out in premiums and $6,000 a year out in deductibles, that's almost $8,000 a year, as a young person, before you get a penny back. How many people out there are going to pay $8,000 a year?

GUILFOYLE: No, they're not.

BECKEL: The whole idea is that the young people that are supposed to be healthy won't use the --


GUILFOYLE: But they can pay for everybody else. The problem is good thing they're not calling it the Affordable Care Act because it is not. And I've got something to show you here, because she is the original ObamaCare cheerleader, Melissa Harris-Perry.


MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC: I want to talk to you about a word, a word that was originally intended as a derogatory term, word meant to shame and divide and demean, the word was conceived of by a group of wealthy white men who needed a way to put themselves above and apart from a black man, to render them inferior and unequal and to diminish his accomplishments. You all know the word I'm talking about -- ObamaCare.

That's right. I said it and I'm not ashamed and neither is President Obama.



GUILFOYLE: That's right. And neither is President Obama. Because listen to this.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know people call this law ObamaCare, and that's OK, because I do care.

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I know I'm fine with calling it ObamaCare. The president is fine with it.

OBAMA: ObamaCare.


And once it's working really well, I guarantee you, they will not call it ObamaCare.


GUILFOYLE: My goodness, you can't make this up. They just hand it to us on a silver platter.

Let's take it on the round table, right?

GUTFELD: Well, first, I thought Katy was the dump Perry.

But I can just bring you something that we haven't talked about and that is the doctors. That's the piece of this puzzle. We keep talking about these other things. Why did the American Medical Association back ObamaCare? Because they thought they would rather be at the table than on the menu. And as it's turned out, they are on the menu. There are the apps. They are the main course and they are the dessert. But why haven't you heard from them? Why aren't the AMA coming out and saying, we screwed up, we threw all of the doctors under the ambulance.

GUILFOYLE: OK, ambulance.


PERINO: Well, the curious thing about her tirade is who came up with Romneycare ands Reaganomics. Were those people in the room like making racial decisions to call something, either celebrated or derogatory? I mean, it's not worth much, what she said.

GUILFOYLE: But it was entertaining.

PERINO: She's cute, though.

BOLLING: You can't call her stupid. I think she is a professor.

GUTFELD: She's a professor.

BOLLING: She's a professor if I'm not mistaken. So she must be smart.

But clearly all she's trying to do is get so-- to get some provocative out there so we bite and we mention. But that is honestly ridiculous. President Obama has called it ObamaCare. So, is he racist? You'd be the first to call President Obama racist, will you please?


BECKEL: The provocative commentary comes from you on a daily basis.

BOLLING: I've been very tame over the last year, right?

PERINO: Compare to that.

BECKEL: When Kimberly said the Republicans are serving it to you on a silver platter, I want to see how they do with the silver platter. And given their history, they're going to figure out a way to turn it into coal. I mean, this is not going to win them an election.

PERINO: Meanwhile, independents of America who don't identify with the Republicans or the Democratic Party, are basically going to have to deal with more expensive and less quality health care.

BECKEL: It's not less quality. Don't say that. It is not less quality.

PERINO: I do think -- absolutely it is.

Let me ask you something, Bob -- do you think that it's fair that people that don't have approved plans from Obama don't get to go to get cancer treatment from a place like Sloan Kettering? Because that's what they had to do, and the choices that they made. Rich people can afford to go there but the average person isn't going to be able to go.


PERINO: So how is that better?

BECKEL: It is perfectly fine with me.

BOLLING: Or how about the IPAD that's going to make the decision whether or not somebody elderly gets a hip or just gets a pain killer.

BECKEL: Oh, here we go.



BOLLING: But it's there, Bob.

BECKEL: That storm coming across the country too, it's ObamaCare. It's terrible.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, the storm here is called the A-block followed by thunder into B.

All right. Directly ahead: Jesse Jackson with some stunning comments on so-called apartheid in America.

And later, a violent feud involving Lindsey Lohan and Paris Hilton. Paris thinks that LiLo may have put out a hint on her younger brother. Details on that.

And more coming your way on "The Five".


GUTFELD: I've seen then, through their harmonica.

On something called "Meet the Press", Reverend Jesse Jackson said this about Mandela, on the passing of Nelson Mandela.


REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Even today while we won the apartheid battle against skin apartheid, the surface level, for the right to vote, the apartheid remains the apartheid gaps in poverty and health care and education. We are in the middle of the end of the apartheid story, but even now, it has just changed faces.


GUTFELD: Didn't see that coming. A leftist using apartheid to describe present day America.

Now, in case you noticed, I'm not an older black South African, but if I were, I'd be a little peeved. It's kind of like when an animal rights whacko uses the word "Holocaust" to describe chicken farming in front of an old Jew. The sufferings do not compare.

But as attention getting stunts go, comparing one monumental hardship with your cause always works. And we know how much the reverend hates attention.

But as for the actual division that exists in the America, part of it is his fault. He's aligned himself with leftist ideas that have done little to raise the votes of his brethren, while marginalizing others who do not embrace such assumptions.

Jackson once again shows that it's time for a new batch of leaders, ones who are unafraid to reject the government bloat that's dragged so many blacks and whites down. Our black conservatives and libertarians, the Mia Loves, the Ben Carsons, the Allen Wests -- they exist, but you only hear about them when they are mocked by liberals black and white.

I used apartheid regarding treatment of such leaders but I'm not that dumb.

So, Bob, you are good friends with Jesse Jackson, I imagine. You hung out with him. I remember seeing him with him once.

Was he wrong to use the phrase apartheid?

BECKEL: Well, probably in the context that he did. But I this is where I agree with him -- let's just take this. Poor blacks and browns, Hispanics, are living in the ghetto. Their schools are the worst and white people live down here and have good schools. The health care up there is the worst. Down here, it's pretty good.

I mean, the fact of the matter is we are separated by poor and wealthy in this city. Now, in -- as a matter of fact, across the country.

So, I think that -- I wouldn't use the word apartheid, but I certainly would say that we are segregated that way.

GUILFOYLE: But the taxes are the highest in New York City. So, what's the government doing to help them? Nothing, really, except maybe create some affordable housing. But --

PERINO: And also, how does that square with the argument that you've made about intergenerational urban poverty being the result of policies over the decades. And when a Republican comes forward, like John Boehner is a champion of school choice, that is one thing that could help break the logjam of the problem of schools -- the parents were able to make choices and it goes nowhere.

The earned income tax credit would help people -- single moms trying to help their kids. There is also the idea of the private sector -- the private accounts for Social Security would have helped African-Americans more than anyone, but Republicans, any time they raise their hand with an idea, they get smacked and called a racist.


BECKEL: The earned income tax credit is still there, though, right?

PERINO: It is. But you can modify it and prove upon it so that single moms would have more money in their pocket to make decisions based on their own needs for their kids.

GUILFOYLE: Are you ready for me?

GUTFELD: Oh, yes, K.G.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Here's the deal -- he's really just doing his whole cause a disservice because he knows what he's talking about. I mean, he's really making a very poor argument, because when you look at the reality, when you open a history book, you actually see that it's the Democratic Party that has done a disservice to a whole generation of African-Americans and others who suffer in poverty in poor communities, because creating this whole entitlement and dependency nation is getting everyone nowhere. And it's certainly not helping these families. And that's what should be addressed.

That's what really should be given a hard look instead of just throwing out apartheid and reckless terms like that and saying that it's -- you know, comparing it to the United States today.

BECKEL: But let's keep in mind, he did not accuse Republicans of this. The Democrats are as complicity in this as the Republicans are by ignoring it. But the Democrats are complicit in it. And having said it again, we had a welfare we shouldn't have had.

Now, having said that, that doesn't change the fact there are separations between poor and wealthy in this city, specifically.

GUIFOYLE: Apartheid.

BECKEL: No. They live apart from and they don't go to --

BOLLING: Right. So it is more function of the economy than it is a forced policy from the government. There aren't militia in the street saying blacks have to go here and the whites have to go here.

BECKEL: No, of course not.

BOLLING: And if the guy in front of you said he is and is doing nothing to help racism in America and he's doing more to foment or to create a wider racial divide in America by saying ridiculous comments like that. America is making massive strides against racism. Do you not agree? We have a black president. We have leaders of all major industries who are black. We have leaders in sports who are black. We have black conservatives.

The racial divide is coming together, but it's people like the reverend and Al Sharpton and some of the others who make a living, who have profit of wider racial divide, who have an interest, a financial interest in the racism staying like this, rather than doing so. So they make idiotic comments like that and I apologize. He may have been a friend of yours, and friend of other people around here. I don't care. I think it is wrongheaded for him to do something like that.

BECKEL: It's not unusual for Jesse. He's been this way for a long time.

BOLLING: It doesn't make it right.

BECKEL: It doesn't make it right. I'm not suggesting, I said right at the front end, it's the wrong word to use.

PERINO: The strange thing is that Reverend Jackson actually shuts down conversations rather than encouraging it, because if you are a Mia Love, thank God she has courage, but if you raise your head up from the ground and say I've got an idea, being smacked around, it is something people will shrink back from and they don't want to argue and they stay in their area and don't want to reach across.

There are policies from both sides if there was allowed to be a decent conversation without calling somebody a racist or suggesting apartheid, which was a government policy -- with deplorable government policy, not what we have going on in America.

BECKEL: Let me just said one thing here -- Rand Paul's suggestion about Detroit has not received an attack from the left. I think it's a good idea to have the dialogue and hopefully it works, his idea works. That they'll adopt some of it and it will work.

So, I think there is such desperation in the communities they are willing to try new things. This maybe the time.

I've one just quick fact. Also, he says that these voter ID laws serve to disenfranchise those voters, that's not correct. No, it's incorrect. When you look at the facts, every state where voter ID has been implemented, you have seen an increase in minority voting. Equip yourself with the facts, don't bring the cause back.

BECKEL: It's tough to argue that. But south Texas, that's --


GUTFELD: It was pretty good. All right.



Ahead on "The Five": Did Lindsey Lohan put out a hit on Paris Hilton's little brother. If she didn't we wouldn't be putting out this story.

Plus, Santa Claus becomes Miley Cyrus' latest twerking victim. She really is America's sweetheart. Sorry, Dana, next.


BOLLING: Welcome back, everybody.

Did Lindsey Lohan put a hit out on Paris Hiltons little bro? Paris not taking that sitting down saying, "No one f's with my family," I'm quoting.

Plus, Miley couldn't get much lower, twerking Santa, yikes.

And the Reverend Al Sharpton, Sharpee Sharpton, gets the "SNL" treatment.

Three crazy cultural stories, six fast moving minutes, one host that loves this segment.

First up, Paris Hilton's little bro getting the smackdown by LiLo's boy toy at a Miami mansion Friday night party. Paris in a show of strength rolled up her sleeves, exposed her guns, and said this, "They will both pay for what they did. No one F's with my family and gets away with it."


BOLLING: Greg, you partied with these people.

GUTFELD: You know, it used to be when Lindsay puts a hit out on you, that means she slept with you and gave you an STD. So I'm happy these people are beating each other up because they leave us alone. Let them destroy each other.

BOLLING: K.G., in a mansion party, the Hiltons fighting, the Lindsay Lohans, it doesn't get better than this.

GUILFOYLE: Now, you finally understand my life. I've been trying to see if can connect, we can relate to the struggle. Yes. I mean, this is ridiculous. They are on their own every day a reality show of nonsense. You know, now, we can have like, what, anger management rehab it promises, I don't know, if they need it.

BOLLING: Do we have the picture, the picture of Barron Hilton?

GUILFOYLE: All bloodied.

BOLLING: Yes. He'd been smacked down pretty good.

Bob, your thoughts on the celebrity beating the crap out of each other?

BECKEL: I'm shocked again that she is not in the rehab where should be. Why she's hanging around doing a party with her drugs and alcohol around, forget the smackdown idea. The fact is, we've been talking about this girl for three years and she's supposed to be in a long-term rehab and she never seems to be there.

And the tragedy of this is, that if she keeps going there way, she will not live to see the age 30.

BOLLING: All right. Quick thought, D?

PERINO: So, you learn something new everyday. What I learned today was that I thought that LiLo stood for last in, last out. It's a financial term. I just do that from economics and come to find out it's Lindsay Lohan.


PERINO: Yes, last in, last out.

GUILFOYLE: Last in, first out.


BOLLING: All right. How about this one? Next up, Miley Cyrus working her way to hell fast and furiously, twerk Santa Claus at the 2013 jingle ball last weekend.

Bob, you can admit --

GUILFOYLE: No, Bob is so gross. He just said that was a you-know-what term.

BECKEL: No, I haven't heard it before.

First of all, this woman ought with the Center for Disease Control list with the top ten diseases in America.

PERINO: You want the Miley Cyrus disease.

BECKEL: Excuse me. You don't want to get it. And by send her overseas.

But the point is this woman is being considered for "Time's" person of the year. She shouldn't be on the front page of most of my dirty magazines.

PERINO: You know that Miley Cyrus is the new Honey Boo Boo. Last year everyone made fun of Honey Boo Boo and this year we have Miley Cyrus. And I think that the "Time" magazine thing says a lot more about "Time" magazine than it does about Miley Cyrus.

GUTFELD: Yes, they're desperate.

BOLLING: First, it was Robin Thicke and now it is Santa Claus.


GUTFELD: She's not controlling this. Her tongue is. It is like a space alien in her face. It has more bacteria in it than a Greyhound bus station bathroom.

She actually, this is an argument about don't put your kids into showbiz because nothing good ever happens.

BECKEL: It's not just her tongue. It's her butt.

GUILFOYLE: But her mom. Hey, her mom is her manager. Didn't you watch the MTV happy birthday Miley?

BECKEL: Oh, I missed that. Oh my --

GUILFOYLE: It was illuminating. You see, kind of the parents aren't together any more, the mom is on the red carpet with her. She's completely involved, kind of like your favorite person, LiLo.

BOLLING: We have to get to this one, NBC "SNL" finally realizing what a joke Reverend Al really is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Obama's health care plan has turned a corner. More folks are signing up now and the website works 90 percent of the time but Republicans still don't want to give credit where credit is kind of due. This law is working. President Obama said it. The White House report says it, and the official White House spokesperson said it.

That's three different people. How much more evidence do we need?


BOLLING: MSNBC will figure that one out. Health care, period, gov.

GUILFOYLE: Well, here's the deal, MSNBC should switch to comedy. But that's the thing, they're building themselves as news that should just be kind of like SNL" skits. This is what they do.

BOLLING: Your thoughts on the Reverend Al here.

BECKEL: I think he's been asking for this for a long time.

And for "Saturday Night Live", it's topical. You have ObamaCare and you got Sharpton, and it's a perfect mix. It makes good sense for this, if I were them, to do.

GUILFOYLE: About time.

BOLLING: Your thoughts?

GUTFELD: It wasn't that funny.

PERINO: He is just an actor that is funny.

GUTFELD: I guess.

PERINO: When he walks into a room, you start laughing.

GUTFELD: I don't know. I mean, it's like --

BOLLING: Were you offended by the music?

GUTFELD: Yes, I was offended by the music. I felt it was bigoted. I guess the thing is like we become so grateful for anything that makes fun of liberals because it never happens. You know? It's like, I don't know, I don't watch it.

GUILFOYLE: It's called hunger for humor.

BOLLING: But the thing is, "Saturday Night Live", NBC property, MSNBC, NBC property, taking a shot at their own.

PERINO: I think they do a better job of having a bright line.

GUILFOYLE: Well, they need help with the ratings. So, they've got to help kind of --

BOLLING: You know what will help "SNL's" ratings.

GUILFOYLE: No, not "SNL" --

PERINO: No, don't say it.


BOLLING: Spoofing "The Five".

PERINO: Please don't.

BOLLING: "The Five" spoof on "SNL".


BOLLING: Can you imagine what that would be?

BECKEL: Yes, I can. Hold that off a little bit.

BOLLING: All right. Ahead, he watched all of his fellow Navy SEALs die in a 2005 ambush in the hills of Afghanistan. Marcus Luttrell is featured in a new movie "Lone Survivor" out later this month. He sat down with "60 Minutes" last night and revealed new details about what happened on that deadly day.

Please stick around for this very important story, coming up.


PERINO: In 2005, a team of four Navy SEALs were on a mission to find an al Qaeda leader in the mountains of Afghanistan. Only one SEALs made it out alive after they were ambushed by the Taliban. His name is Marcus Luttrell. He wrote a book about the story called "Lone Survivor" and it has been made into a film that will be released this month.

Luttrell gave an interview about losing his brothers last night on "60 Minutes" last night. Here Marcus talking about Lt. Mike Murphy who was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.


MARCUS LUTTRELL, "LONE SURVIVOR" AUTHOR: I heard his gun go off and a lot of guns firing his area. I was trying everything I could to get to him. And he started screaming my name. He's like, "Marcus, man, you got to help. I need help, Marcus."

It got so intense that I put my weapon down and covered my hears because I couldn't stand to hear him die.

They say every man has his breaking point, I never thought I would find mine. The only way to break a Navy SEAL is to kill us. But I broke right there.


PERINO: Luttrell likely would not have made it out alive if it weren't for the help of a Afghan man named Mohammad Gulab who risked his life to help a complete stranger.


MOHAMMAD GULAB: (INAUDIBLE) is a respect, a respect for a guest that comes knocking at your door and even if he is in need or if he is in imminent danger, we must protect him. I knew I had to help him.

The Taliban came down and sat down with me and I said, no, I will not hand him over to you. They told me, you will die, your brother will die, your cousins will die, your whole family will die. It is not worth it. Give us the American.

And I said, no, I will protect him until the end.

LUTTRELL: We are brothers in blood. We bled together. He could have left me there on the side of the waterfall and let me die.


PERINO: So grateful that he lived to tell this story.

And, Kimberly, last week you had a chance to meet him and his wife as the movie premier was getting ready to be released.


PERINO: And tell us your thoughts about meeting him in person. What was it like?

GUILFOYLE: Well, he is an incredibly open person, very honest, answered all of the questions, a number of journalists there. He still today mourns for the loss of his brothers, as he calls them and he maintained a close relationship with Mohammad Gulab.

But the one thing that I really took away from it was that he really feels the rules of engagement has cost sales and other military their lives, and there has been an increase in the strictness of the rules of engagement. SEALs operate under secrecy and cover. You can't be going out there and give a calling card and questioning -- you know, when you are out there doing a mission, that's cause this time and delays.

Here, they came along some goat herders, if they believe that they would have let them go, they would have been alive today, because right after that, they were sieged upon by a group of Taliban.

And the part where he says, you know, he heard his friend dying, Lt. Mike Murphy, he would have been able to get to him, to save him from the position that he was in. It is a harrowing tale and you can't send our military out there to die, to get slaughtered, when they are trying to fight for us. Let them do what they do.

BECKEL: On the other hand, these were unarmed goat herders they were there. They talked about whether they needed to kill them or not. And I still thinks the possibility would exist they tipped off their location.

GUILFOYLE: Well, look what happened.

BECKEL: That's right. The question is, she then turn guns on unarmed goat herders and kill them.

GUILFOYLE: Well, this is just one example, though, Bob. And especially when you give Special Forces the job that they're supposed to do, it's not going and selling, you know --


BECKEL: I understand. I just think in this case, I think there's -- they had a debate among themselves and they decided not to do that and I think they made the right choice.

GUILFOYLE: Well, there was a spike now of U.S. troops dying --

BOLLING: And there was another choice, they could have zip tied them and left them there but they felt that was --

GUILFOYLE: Inappropriate.

BOLLING: It could have been construed as inappropriate. The goat herders went back, told a bunch of Taliban fighters. So, four guys up against 30 well-armed Taliban fighters. That's the real story. The real story that Marcus Luttrell put his gun down, he put his gun down after he saw three of his four people in his unit there getting shot literally to death and he decided he -- it was just the moment.

The real story is he fought the whole time. He fought 30 fighters back and forth, back and forth. The SEAL fighting to the very end, I'm sorry we used that clip.


BOLLING: I know I'm getting yelled at by the producers about this, but we can -- but it was misleading.

GUILFOYLE: It's misleading. That is not what happened.


BOLLING: The story was Marcus Luttrell being a hero and fighting his way out and he was told he was on a mission to kill Taliban that was killing American soldiers. That is the real story.

PERINO: Let me ask, Greg, you can certainly comment on any part of this. I want to get your take on Hollywood and making movies about the war on terror. Do you think that's good thing, a bad thing? Do you think it could influence a debate about rules of engagement --

GUTFELD: Yes, if it's done objectively and not to appease the academic --

BECKEL: There we go, all of them.

GUTFELD: To my point, why is it education on campus is somehow seen as superior as an education in the military? If you listen to the man, it seems he's gained more wisdom and knowledge in his time in service than 100 Ivy League graduates.

And to the point about rules of engagement, you know, you either wage war or you don't. You can't be a little pregnant. You can't wage a little bit of war. When you put those guys in harm's way, you got to be kind of ruthless.

I do see your point, Bob. It's like they are harmless guys, you almost have to get rid of the witnesses. It's a horrible thing to put and say. But is there a way to have kept them down while you took off --

GUILFOYLE: But they are not harmless, because they told. And they might have pulled the trigger themselves --


BECKEL: I know we got to run, but the other part of the story, the Afghanistan guy that saved him, lost his cousin, they killed his cousin, and he and his family are now at the hideout. It's quite a story. I mean, remarkable what he did.

GUILFOYLE: They are trying to get him a green card.

PERINO: I look forward to seeing the movie for sure.

OK, the directly ahead, the front-runner for this year's Heisman Trophy is in the clear in his year-long rape case. So why did FSU quarterback Jameis Winston walk away from a live interview when he was asked about it. You're going to see the tape when "The Five" returns.


BECKEL: In case you didn't know, that was "Ignition" by Matt Stillwell.

Last Thursday, it was announced that Florida State quarterback and Heisman trophy frontrunner Jameis Winston would not be charged with rape, stemming from a December 2012 incident.

An ESPN reporter -- sideline reporter caught up with the quarterback after their win this weekend. The comments were that the charges were dropped and it didn't end well.


HEATHER COX, ESPN REPORTER: And on Thursday afternoon it was broken that the investigation was closed. Coach Fisher told us he told you that he has the ultimate trust in you and that you just need to be you, and he'll take care of the rest. How much did that trust from your head coach help you?

JAMEIS WINSTON, FLORIDA STATE QUARTERBACK? I love him. I love him. That's how you have a successful team to do what we did today. We are trying to make history. We've got to keep going.

COX: And Jameis, how come you decided not to talk during the processing on Thursday?

WINSTON: Thank you.

COX: Jameis, congratulations.


BECKEL: All right. Now, clearly after the game this weekend, Eric, he probably would have had a lock on the Heisman. I mean, the guy -- two touchdown passes, one or two interceptions but he ran for 150 yards or something. He clearly is the leading candidate for the Heisman, but is this going to catch him, and is it going to stop him?

BOLLING: No. They cleared him. The whole issue is -- He's done. He's fine. He's out in the clear. Florida State will likely -- what a great weekend for college football. National championship. This was a great weekend. National championship coming up. Florida State is going to be phenomenal. ACC, FCC.

He's done. He's probably going to win the Heisman trophy. I can't see any reason why he won't win it now. He's just good. And the sideline reporter asked him three times. He clearly didn't want to talk about it, and he finally just walked away: "I'm done with this."

BECKEL: Dana, normally in this -- this jurisdiction, a rape case is immediately dealt with. This has gone on for a year before the state's attorney, I guess, decided they were not going to press charges against this guy.

And he's -- and then also we know that one of the police officers went to her lawyer and said, this is football territory, you better not want to get the state pushed too far. Is the state involved in this?

PERINO: You I read what was everybody else has read in terms of what's publicly available. It does seem that there was some sort of suspicious activity that happened afterward during the investigation or the discussion. But he gets cleared; fine.

What really bothered me is if you can't stand the heat, then don't do the interview. Because what he wants is the glory now. He wants to ride on it and get the Heisman trophy and all the publicity and the great contract with an NFL team when he's finished. His lawyer writes on Twitter that Heather Cox was aggressive, she was unprofessional and she was classless.

Look, she's just -- she's a reporter doing her job. She's not there just to make him look good.

GUILFOYLE: That's not her job. Her job as a journalist is to ask the questions, and it's certainly a fair line of questioning. And then the school information officer is ready to pull him back because, yes, they're trying to protect their asset, and he's got a big future. This is what happens.

BECKEL: I -- I think he's talking about -- but I've got to ask Greg this one question. Don't you think this, now that the bowl championship series is now over, this is an excellent thing for sports?

GUTFELD: I have no idea, because I haven't been following it. But I will say this about this case in general. Stories like this offer very little information about it to protect the accuser. So it's very hard to comment on something without adding anything important to it, because the press -- the more the press goes there, the less you know about that actual -- what went on. We could look at the lacrosse case as an example. So that's why I'll just keep my mouth shut.

BECKEL: Very good. "One More Thing"! Next.

GUILFOYLE: And I just said to you so sweetly, please be nice.


GUILFOYLE: The commercial breaks, that's what it's about. All right. It's time now for "One More Thing." I'm so freaked out right now.

BOLLING: You have no idea what goes on during the commercial break.

GUILFOYLE: He is bleeding all over me. It's so gross.

BOLLING: Let's move on to this. Yesterday, amazing television. First, it started off with awesome NFL, Smashmouth, snowstorm football, final seconds in Baltimore, New England and Pittsburgh, last-second wins. But then last night, if you haven't seen "Naked and Afraid" you have to take time and see that.

PERINO: I hate that. You like it?

BOLLING: Unbelievable show. These people are dropped for 21 days in the middle of the jungle and given 21 days to get out with no clothes. It's out of control.

BECKEL: You watch that.

BOLLING: And "Homeland," best drama on television ever. Season finale is next weekend, next Sunday night. It's just getting so good.

GUILFOYLE: Dana, you were home with Peter watching the season 2, right, of "Homeland."

PERINO: Right, of "Homeland." Is it my turn now?

GUTFELD: So you like -- you like...

GUILFOYLE: But I don't watch the naked show.

GUTFELD: You like physical contact and naked men.

GUILFOYLE: I haven't been into that naked show. So to you.

PERINO: All together on one Sunday night. That is interesting.

BECKEL: How do you have time to watch all this stuff?

GUTFELD: All right, TV 2, tonight a new show premiers on FOX Business Network. It's called "The Independents." It's hosted by Kennedy. She's awesome. You've got Matt Welch from "Reason." You've got Camille Foster. These are all really bright libertarians. I encourage you to watch it.

It's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday -- wait, Wednesday and Friday, because Thursday night is always Stossel's show. Nine p.m., FBN. DVR it. You'll enjoy it. They're all brainy people.

PERINO: That looks good.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, that looks good. Hey, another winner for FOX News. What can we say? Perino.

PERINO: Well, we can say this, which is we shall celebrate today. It is Jennifer's 20th month birthday.

GUTFELD: That's not a birthday!

PERINO: It's my "One More Thing." There she is with the band shells. And there, he got a big stick over the weekend. And then what else?

BECKEL: Please, I'm begging you. I'm begging you. I'm begging you to stop talking about this dog.

GUTFELD: Twenty months.

BECKEL: Stop talking about this dog, please.

PERINO: Sean (ph), the producer, said, "What are we celebrating?" I said that she's 20 months old. And even Sean (ph) was incredulous.

BECKEL: Yes, OK. Good.

GUILFOYLE: Bob, you haven't bled out on the table.

BECKEL: It's really exciting.

GUILFOYLE: It's your turn.

BECKEL: Well, the Dalai Lama is not going to be able to go to Nelson Mandela's memorial in South Africa. We don't know exactly why, but the last two times he was denied a visa to South Africa, it was reported that, because the Chinese, who have an enormous amount of trade with South Africa, put pressure on them not to allow the Dalai Lama in.

One -- again, another example of the Chinese throwing their weight around, throwing their money around. They didn't want to let the Dalai Lama go and see his -- the service for his friend.

PERINO: Yes, no kidding.

BECKEL: They're just punks.


PERINO: Because South Africa and China are in the G-77 together, and they lean on South Africa to do things like this.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, I do have an important "One More Thing." I hope Greg will not say anything about it. Donate. Because fewer wreaths this year are planned for Arlington National Cemetery. December 14 is when tens of thousands of volunteers are going to fan out across the cemetery place a wreath at each headstone of a fallen service member and say a silent salute.

Now, there's a problem, because it's in its 21st year, and the Wreaths Across America is facing a shortage of 35,000 wreaths. Go to to donate.

Don't forget to set your DVR so you never miss an episode of "The Five." We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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