Can Cruz-Kasich alliance derail Donald Trump?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 25, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Brian Kilmeade. It is 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

It is the eve of another big election day. Donald Trump could sweep all five contests in the east tomorrow. He has a double digit lead in all of them. His rivals know they can no longer mathematically clinch the nomination before the convention. So they draw up a plan. Ted Cruz and John Kasich are coordinating their efforts of stop Trump in three upcoming states. The deal will keep Kasich on the sideline for Indiana's primary and Cruz out in Oregon and New Mexico. They spoke about their agreement on the trail today.


SEN. TED CRUZ, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is big news today that John Kasich decided to pull out of Indiana to give us a head-to-head contest with Donald Trump. That is good for the men and women of Indiana -- it's good for the country.

I understand that Donald will whine. That's what he does. Donald is a sore loser.

JOHN KASICH, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The two of us are competing for -- to win a nomination and make sure that we can steward our resources so that we can stop Hillary Clinton. What Donald Trump needs to understand is he cannot beat Hillary Clinton.

I'm not campaigning in Indiana and he's not campaigning in other states. That's all. That's all it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, guys. Thank you very much.

KASICH: Not a big deal.


GUILFOYLE: As you can imagine, hmm, Trump has a few things to say about it.


DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you collude in business or if you collude in the stock market they put you in jail, but in politics, because it's a rigged system, because it's a corrupt enterprise. In politics you are allowed to collude, so they colluded. And actually, I was happy, because it shows how weak they are. It shows how pathetic they are.


TRUMP: Kasich, we call him "One for 41." I thought it was 38. He's won one race in 41 states, one. Now you look at Kasich, I don't think he knows what you know -- did you see him? He has a news conference all the time when he's eating. I have never seen a human being eat in such a disgusting fashion. I watched Cruz this morning and he's all mixed up because he's losing so badly. And when he's under pressure, he is like a basket case.


GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness. All right, we knew he was going to take too kindly to the collision, so to speak. But Eric, as we were listening to the, to the sound bites there, you heard kind of the different, the juxtaposition between how Senator Ted Cruz phrase these alliance and how Kasich said it.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: So three quick thoughts on this. The first one is, when I heard this is going on, it was like, man, why would they do this? They're playing right into what Donald Trump wants them to play. Trump has been saying all along, it's us versus them. It's outside -- I'm the outsider, they're corrupt, they're Washington, D.C., they're the (inaudible), they're the establishment. It's us against them. And then these two guys decide to get together and do exactly what Trump is saying D.C. is about. So that was the first point. I think this is going to end up playing in Trump's favor. Number two is, when I heard Cruz today say Kasich, quote, "Kasich pulled out of Indiana," I thought oh, my god. When Kasich hears this, he's going to fire back. And the point, be sure you know who you are getting into bed with and make sure the other person it wants to get in bed with you too, otherwise, it could be ugly. Because now, if this thing doesn't it work -- if it does work, you're gonna end up having contested convention and everyone is going to say, wow, the republicans are divided. Let's see what happens. But if it doesn't work, you basically just handed the whole thing to Donald Trump. I didn't think that was, that was a sensible thing to do it. And the third point is, it's just the ugly -- for the outsiders, who are watching this thing from afar going, they're D.C. It says you know what, they do play by a different set of rules and we do on a day to day basis. And I think this is going to backfire for them -- for Cruz and Kasich.

BRIAN KILMEADE, GUEST CO-HOST: He didn't know what the word collision meant.


KILMEADE: He was Hillary Clinton's version of wipe when Ed Henry asked Hillary Clinton, "what is wiping? What does it mean? It's like physically wipe?" Don't pretend like you don't know. He said, "collusion, what are you talking about collusion?" And then when asked this isn't a big deal, Ted Cruz says, "It is a big deal." He says it's a big deal. What do you say to voters, they don't want to vote for you? "I've never told them to vote for me, I'm just gonna run it." What is it? This is the worst I have all complain ever, because no one is on the same page. The same thing with Rubio tried to do this, earlier in the race. He had to say, "You know Kasich has no shot, I'll pull out of here." Kasich said, "What are you talking about? I'll take my four voters and leave me alone." It makes no sense as if they did not speak.

BOLLING: Can I just throw a quick example in here? And Donald Trump points this out, in the business world, if you did this, you go to jail. If Coke and Pepsi decided to get together and have a deal to get to wipe out everyone else or another competitor that want to get in to the marketplace...


BOLLING: ... they'll be broke up. They said no, he can't do that. Someone might get in trouble. But instead, they look at each other, they wink, they do a nod, and they both market themselves.

KILMEADE: Baseball did it.

BOLLING: And hope -- right. Exactly, it's the same thing.

GUILFOYLE: Well, Kasich is more fair about it than Cruz.

BOLLING: But the politics disappointed. They just show how ugly politics can be.

GUILFOYLE: All right, Dana, so what did you think of the strategy over all in terms of -- and speaks specifically to the individual campaigns? Meaning, how do you think, you know, to benefit Cruz more than Kasich? Would have made this deal?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well there's a reason that this hasn't happened before now. It's just, it's really hard. And if you are a candidate that's been raising money, and you have supporters in those various states, you got delegate strategies. It's really hard to admit that you are not going to get to the 1237 and that you have, gonna have to try to work with another partner. I actually think that collusion is a terrible word for it. It's a strategy. And politics is a tough game, and they have a strategy -- it may not work. It does smack a little bit of desperation, but it may work. And so I think -- if I was Donald Trump, I -- of course, my advice would be totally different for him anyway, but take it -- consider me the Ainsley Hayes of Fox News. As you remember Ainsley Hayes?


PERINO: She's the lone republican who worked to the -- in the West Wing for the (inaudible) administration on the show. And they pulled her out of the basement very once in awhile and say...


PERINO: ... what's really going on? What do you think? And it was only her opinion. So that's Ainsley of Fox News at the moment. If I were Donald Trump, I wouldn't even have addressed this, because what he did is revert back to exactly what everyone was praising him for not doing last week, which is being so presidential. First thing he had to do is attack them personally. That's what -- and he doesn't like to be handled. Like Manafort, those guys, were like here, try this. I mean's it is like -- but the people like me like this. And we like it. We are sitting here watching it laughing. I think if I were him, I would let my surrogates handle Cruz and Kasich who are so desperate down there, below them. So far below them, so far behind in the delegate count. And he could use today to attack Hillary Clinton and just show like; I'm going to be the general election candidate that you want me to be. I will show that I can beat her. That's a different way they got.


KILMEADE: Now it would be -- yeah, that would be (inaudible) because he know he has surrogates rather than his just family.

PERINO: He has more.



GUILFOYLE: And then as of new national poll showing this defense, statistical margin of error, like three, four percentage point on...

KILMEADE: But Kimberly, why not use it on Tuesday?


KILMEADE: Why not try to collude on Tuesday, tomorrow? Why just say, May 3rd, I'm really going to affect the race. And later on in Oregon, why not try to collude for tomorrow?


KILMEADE: Because if you combine theoretically, Kasich's number --


KILMEADE: Ted Cruz's numbers...


KILMEADE: So wait --


KILMEADE: So wait --

BOLLING: They probably will say then.

KILMEADE: But tomorrow...


KILMEADE: ... Trump is like a 25 to 30 point lead in some of the most --


GUILFOYLE: He can take all five.


WILLIAMS: So that's the point. That's the big story here is that the numbers, the poll numbers are overwhelming for Trump tomorrow in five states -- I think it's a hundred plus 70...

KILMEADE: Yeah, yeah.

WILLIAMS: ... delegates in states. OK, so you wrap side up. What we really taking about are states like Indiana, because when you get to Indiana, then you are trying to block Trump from having the set -- 1372, whatever it is, 71. So the question --

BOLLING: 1237.

WILLIAMS: 1237. So the question then becomes, if you can stop Trump, and if you are Cruz, you think you have now, because over the weekend, Cruz is a must again, a number of people who promised to vote for him.

KILMEADE: Second round.

WILLIAMS: If you come to a second round of voting at the convention. So, but this is a smart move for Ted Cruz. For John Kasich, it's a desperation move. It's a move that says you know what? I think if we get to (inaudible), I can make the case that my numbers are sufficient to beat Hillary Clinton. Guess what, Ted Cruz doesn't have that. That's his play in this game. I think Donald Trump, as you know, as Dana was saying, he didn't need to respond, because at the moment, going into tomorrow, he's in great shape. But you notice he is now focused heavily on Indiana. And that's because that's --

PERINO: He should be.

KILMEADE: It was the day after New York.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's where they're focused. That's where Manafort, that's where this new team --


WILLIAMS: Trump. But this idea that it helps Donald Trump --


WILLIAMS: No, it doesn't help. It might help him with people who already voting for him, it doesn't matter. What we are talking about now is can he unify the Republican Party, but it move beyond the base.

BOLLING: You don't think that some people are gonna say, you know, I kind of like Ted Cruz, and I kind of like John Kasich.


BOLLING: But now that they are going to try to conspire or get together to try and take out the frontrunner --

WILLIAMS: No, that's --

BOLLING: Then maybe I'll move over there.


WILLIAMS: Nobody say. That's you know, I mean it might be an issue for people who already feel that, you know, it's to -- the Republican Party is to unlocks that -- betray them and all of that, but those people are already voting for Trump. They are not voting for --

BOLLING: I don't know.

WILLIAMS: I don't see --

BOLLING: It's certainly an all in strategy for -- not Donald Trump, because he can still lose Indiana and still go forward and say, I'm still fighting here. But if he wins Indiana, I would say Cruz and Kasich put all the chips in and went forward if it doesn't work there.

WILLIAMS: You don't understand. In other words --

GUILFOYLE: They both need to drive at the contested convention.

BOLLING: Right, right, the last speech.

GUILFOYLE: That's the bottom line.



KILMEADE: If you believe one poll, I mean, I think the Fox poll has Cruz within five. So can Kasich not -- cannot spending money, get him those five points.


KILMEADE: In theory, possibly. However, a lot of people who don't vote for Kasich might go, I go -- Trump is my number two.


WILLIAMS: But I think, I think Kasich has like 19 percent in Indiana, right?

KILMEADE: Yeah, it's could be 19 or 20.



WILLIAMS: That's a lot. So that's a lot. If you --


WILLIAMS: And remember --

KILMEADE: I mean, John Kasich said --

WILLIAMS: It's so many percent --

KILMEADE: Why do I'm to have -- why do I have to leave?

WILLIAMS: What do you mean?

KILMEADE: He's out of the game. You know --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it's a cooperation.


WILLIAMS: I think he's more like an alliance.

GUILFOYLE: I thought that he should like given it up at all.

WILLIAMS: I don't think it is collision, you guys -- I think that's Donald Trump's word because it suggest on illegality.

BOLLING: But Juan --

WILLIAMS: But it's more like a political alliance.

BOLLING: He backed out of the contract so as...

GUILFOYLE: Yes. So perception becomes reality --

BOLLING: ... to let someone else wins so that you can -- he can defeat the other guy and then try to win over -- it's as reeks. It's massive like politics. We don't do that.


WILLIAMS: Imagine politics --


PERINO: I just -- I think you --

BOLLING: You don't do it in bed.

WILLIAMS: Of course you don't --

BOLLING: You don't do it sports.

WILLIAMS: Are you kidding?

BOLLING: No. You don't loot? What you tell your kid -- to do with Survivor --

KILMEADE: The game of Survivor.

GUILFOYLE: All that --

KILMEADE: Call that alliance.

PERINO: Exactly.

KILMEADE: Yeah, it's all that alliances.

PERINO: I thought...

GUILFOYLE: It's an alliance.

PERINO: ... this was reality TV election.

KILMEADE: Until you get to the finals, and you turn on your --


GUILFOYLE: But also you are gonna say --

WILLIAMS: Did you guys watch "Game of Thrones"? Hey, they do it all the time.


WILLIAMS: Blood sport.

KILMEADE: Oh, really?


KILMEADE: Fiction.

GUILFOYLE: One more thought from Ainsley Hayes.


PERINO: I was just thinking that -- yeah, Ainsley Hayes. Cruz and Kasich, it's sort of like, let's say they have like family businesses and they are about to be taken over or has taken over by the corporation, the hedge funds coming in. And they say that they know that their dreams, their family business is over in the future. They want to stave it off as long as possible, so they're going to get together and try to make to make a bigger corporation so that they can go forward and not have the hospital takeover. It may not work. They may end up saying to say, sorry dad, we lost the business and then the Republican Party will have to --

BOLLING: The only problem with --


BOLLING: It's not a takeover by Trump or Cruz and Kasich. It's the voters. It's the customers of those corporations...

PERINO: That's right. No, I'm saying --

BOLLING: ... who have decided to go to the big company, instead of those --

PERINO: Not all -- by not all of them.


PERINO: But not all of them -- exactly, Juan.

BOLLING: OK. If you want to use that metric 90 something percent of the republicans don't want Kasich and 80 percent don't want Cruz. So --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, of course?

BOLLING: They carry on.

WILLIAMS: Poor party.

GUILFOYLE: I don't think John Kasich could have -- and he said it nice.


GUILFOYLE: John Kasich was (inaudible).


GUILFOYLE: He's out here, I'm out there. Anyway, before we go, two programming notes, Trump and Cruz will both be on Hannity tonight. Tune in for the exclusive interviews at 10:00 p.m. eastern. And tomorrow night, got an extra hour of "The Five." At midnight, we're going to be live, breaking down the results of tomorrow's battle for the east. We hope you'll join us. We don't want o be lonely. Ahead, liberals love to demonize Charles Koch for donating money to the GOP, so they must have been shocked when they heard what the billionaire had to say about the presidential race this weekend. That's next.


WILLIAMS: A lot of democrats, like me, have taken issue with Donald Trump's foreign policy positions that includes banning Muslims from entering the United States. I never thought billionaire GOP Charles Koch would be in the club. He targeted both Trump and Cruz in his interview.


CHARLES KOCH, CHAIRMAN AND CEO OF KOCH INDUSTRIES: That's antithetical our approach, but what was worse was this, we'll have them all register. That's reminiscent of Nazi Germany. I mean that's monstrous as I said at the time.

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And when you hear another top presidential candidate talking about making the sand glow and carpet bombing in the Middle East.

KOCH: Well, that's got to be hyperbole. But I mean, that a candidate, whether they believe it or not, we think that appeals to the American people. This is frightening.


WILLIAMS: And then he really blew my mind when he said this.


KARL: So is it possible another Clinton could be better than another republican?

KOCH: It's possible.

KARL: You couldn't see yourself supporting Hillary Clinton, could you?

KOCH: Well, I -- that -- her -- we would have to believe her actions would be quite different than her rhetoric. Let me put it that way.


KOCH: But on some of the republican candidates we would -- before we could support them, we'd have to believe their actions will be quite different than the rhetoric we've heard so far.


WILLIAMS: Wow. How does Hillary feel about Koch's sure support? She tweeted, quote, "Not interested in endorsements from people who deny climate science and try to make it harder for people to vote." Kimberly, what do you make of it?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, she should be so lucky to get his support and his money. And you know what? This is not a surprise to me at all. No. Because if you know specifically where the Koch family puts their money and their contributions, they are largely like noninterventionists, you know, boarding on isolationist. They are not like hawkish in terms of military intervention and action by the United States. They love the country. They are patriots. They are quite charitable across the board, in terms of who they choose to support with a lot of different children's groups and hospitals. So, you know, they're very well-known and well-regarded philanthropists. So if you look at their record, this isn't inconsistent at all.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, but I'm saying, they have typically supported republican causes, Eric.

BOLLING: What I --

WILLIAMS: And I think to myself, hey look all the...


WILLIAMS: ... republicans right now who are lining up against Trump. The (inaudible), these guys don't like Trump.

BOLLING: Well, they don't. And that shouldn't blow -- should not have blown your mind when one of the Koch brothers said that. They are libertarians.


BOLLING: So they're for wider, more open borders. That shouldn't blow your mind that they are for that. What should blow all of our minds is the way Hillary Clinton took what Charles Koch said right there, and turn it into an endorsement, which he was an endorsement of Hillary Clinton. It was simply, where would you be? Well, her actions would have to be a lot different than the rhetoric. That's not an endorsement.


BOLLING: But she -- hold on.


BOLLING: He turned it into an endorsement. She called it an endorsement and said, oh by the way, I don't need his endorsement.

WILLIAMS: Right. He didn't endorse her.


WILLIAMS: He didn't -- well one of them, you know on the democratic side...

GUILFOYLE: Well, then --

WILLIAMS: ... people thought, maybe...

GUILFOYLE: Free (inaudible) for climate change.


WILLIAMS: ... he was trying to harm her by appearing to support her, because her supporters...

GUILFOYLE: How much she (inaudible)?

WILLIAMS: ... are not going to line up with Charles Koch. I can tell you that. So Dana, part of this argument is well, maybe he's thinking the Republican Party is falling apart. Hillary is likely to win, so I better get in good with Hillary.

GUILFOYLE: oh my, gosh.

PERINO: I think, maybe he just expressing his views, which is that, I don't think I have anyone to vote for right now. It's -- I mean, that's what I got from that. And he's not alone. Make a lot of people feel that way. On the other thing, the Koch brothers are for free markets. I mean, that's really when it comes down to.


PERINO: So therefore, economic mobility, economic freedom. I think she handled that terribly. She could have -- why -- instead of turn it into something that was a negative, why don't you just say, look how bad the Republican Party is, and that they are now looking to me and just leave it at that, and not try to disavow them. That's more like add not subtract.

WILLIAMS: All right. So what I heard Brian --

GUILFOYLE: And say, and through climate change and to try and create favor. But that's --

PERINO: And that to shows you how climate change and the Koch brothers, I mean, this is anti-religion to the democrats. They are --

WILLIAMS: That's true.

PERINO: They are -- they think the Koch brothers are evil. And remember Harry Reid said their names on the floor of the United States Senate --


PERINO: So many times to try to demonize them.

WILLIAMS: Well -- so Brian, a part of this argument is, you know, if the republicans are falling apart -- you know, I really think Hillary Clinton is not as bad, because her husband when he was in office -- actually, according to Koch...


WILLIAMS: ... limited government's growth much more so than George W. Bush.



KILMEADE: Here's the thing. I kind of agree with the -- I got to agree with Eric when he says like -- that's not an endorsement. This was, tease wrong. I watched the show. Jonathan called it a great interview. That's fine. But the ABC chose to choose -- tease it by saying, could he be endorsing Hillary Clinton. You see how awkward he looked...


KILMEADE: ... when he came up with the question.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

KILMEADE: I don't really know. He's not a skilled politician. That he is not Bill Clinton, be able to (inaudible) any question, or Barack Obama for that. But I think that when you have Charles Koch, this guy is basically somebody who cares about the country, very patriotic. He also said in that interview that there's too many tax breaks for the rich. That it is planted (ph) for the rich.


KILMEADE: He also went out to say the system is skewed against those who need welfare.


KILMEADE: So he has said a whole bunch of things. So he's disappointed in the field right now. But I didn't -- when I watch that back, (inaudible), then I watch show. I didn't see any endorsement in Hillary Clinton. He said, "I'll endorse her."

WILLIAMS: No, no --

KILMEADE: She changes everything that she believes.

WILLIAMS: No, no, wait --


WILLIAMS: Yes, it's going to have to be some change between the rhetoric and the reality.


WILLIAMS: But I must say, I came away from that (inaudible) --


PERINO: Well, I think it's also clear --

WILLIAMS: This guy is close to the Bernie Sanders than the Donald Trump.

KILMEADE: Well, Juan, but I will say this so.

WILLIAMS: All right.

KILMEADE: If the rigged is only rich people don't want to get behind a republican; that might be good for the republican's image...


KILMEADE: Because they are looked at right or wrong as the party of the rich. So the rich running away, it might thaw (ph) some modernist to say, I'll take a second look.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, you're right.

WILLIAMS: All right. Ahead, as Virginia's governor trying to swing his swing state toward Hillary Clinton in November by giving ex-cons the right to vote. Some of my friends at the table think so. We'll debate it, next.


PERINO: For the first time in more than a century, convicted felons will be allowed to vote in Virginia. Governor Terry McAuliffe restored rights to more than 200,000 ex-cons on Friday. That could be an unconstitutional overreach on outside the state legislature that points to political favoritism by the Clinton friendly democrat, right before the 2016 election. But the governor denies that and offers this advice to his critics.


TERRY MCAULIFFE, GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA: I would tell the republicans, quit complaining and go out and earn these folks right to vote for you. I would tell them to be very careful on how they frame this, very careful the rhetoric. They have an opportunity to go out and get these individual new voters to vote for them.


PERINO: McAuliffe likens his action to those of one of America's greatest president.


MCAULIFFE: Well, I stood in front of our capital and erased a hundred and fifteen years. I stood not 20 yards from Abraham Lincoln, met the freed slaves, a hundred and fifty-one years ago in April. It was the right thing to do, legally, and most importantly George, in one politics. It was the right thing to do morally.


PERINO: All right Eric, I don't think that the governor would be getting any or much blowback from folks if he had done this with the legislature, and if he had not included violent offenders. What do you think?

BOLLING: Exactly. So the -- the timing was clearly aimed at when the legislature broke up and prior to the upcoming vote. Clearly, there was the reason to do that. And don't forget, Terry McAuliffe was a senior advisor to Hillary Clinton in 2008 campaign. So they're very, very close. And Bill Clinton --

PERINO: Worked at the White House.

BOLLING: Bill Clinton -- and he worked at the White House as well. But the problem I think is what you just noted that it doesn't distinguish between a murder or rapist, and a guy who books a bet on the Ravens Redskins game. I mean, it's literally you can -- if the both can be felonies in Virginia, and it doesn't matter. So there's a blanket amnesty getting your voting rights back. Meanwhile, it's not like they are saying, you can't get your voting rights back, just petition state. That's what -- that's the process. It's been -- it's worked up until now.

GUILFOYLE: From the books.

BOLLING: Why now? What the sudden change?


WILLIAMS: But let me just say, quickly, that -- if that's right, petition the government, in this case the governor of Virginia...


WILLIAMS: That's the law.


WILLIAMS: He has this power.


WILLIAMS: So when people say, no, I don't think it's constitutional. It won't hold up? No, it does hold up. It's that he did it while the legislature was out. I thought your point was legit there.

BOLLING: No, no. It's also that he have should distinguish between someone who has raped people and kill people.


BOLLING: And someone who has done a lower level felony from --

WILLIAMS: If they --


WILLIAMS: They should be in jail. They should be in jail. I mean if, once they serve their sentence, once they --

BOLLING: It doesn't matter what you did.

WILLIAMS: I think --

BOLLING: It doesn't matter.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think that you paid your debt to society. And what we see here is the racial component. I think it's -- I think it's like one out of every five people in -- black people in Virginia is affected by this law. Half of the people who were banned right now are black, and nationally, you have to remember, nationally, 28 states have done just what Terry McAuliffe did in the last couple of years. I mean this is about disfranchisement. This is not about criminals.

PERINO: Well, that -- so that he is going to play out in Virginia. There would be lawsuit, I'm sure. But Kimberly, I want to ask you about Terry McAuliffe advice where he says, "The republicans -- instead of complaining about it, why you don't try to go out there and earn their vote. And I've been there might be some merit to that. What do you think?

GUILFOYLE: Of course he can say that. But also, at the same time, this isn't race and intention. This is about justice. This is about victim's rights. This is about paying your debt and your dues, including restitution to victims of crime.

If you want to vote, do not go out and commit violent crimes against people in the community. It's really that simple. You know, the ability to vote should be really, you know, sacrosanct, something that people respect, that they value, that they don't toss away, you know, to commit some crime and then look at the result.

It's very disturbing to me, because there isn't any kind of precursor to say, if you owe victims of crimes, the people that you've got and people that you're murdered, et cetera, to the family, you don't even have to pay them back. You can still get your rights to them.

WILLIAMS: But you realize, this was put in place, not to punish people for crimes. This was put in place back in 1902 to disenfranchise black voters.

GUILFOYLE: Well, that's what he's saying, and that's what you're saying, but these are the laws on the books. And if it was such a good idea, so noble and valiant in its intention. Why did he circumvent the legislation and do it when they were out and go ahead and do it?

WILLIAMS: Wait, you said noble and valiant?

GUILFOYLE: If what he is doing is so noble and valiant, then why not embrace it and bring it to the full legislature and have them vote on it and really carefully analyze it?'

WILLIAMS: Because right now -- I'll tell you very quickly, because I want to get Brian in. I'll tell you very quickly, which is most of these folks are black. I said half of them are black. The thought is from Republicans, they're likely Democratic voters, and it's not in our party's interest to have more Democratic voters.

KILMEADE: Also, we should give them their Second Amendment rights back, too, give them guns, because let's just freaking forget. And also, I just -- I just think it's always a risk of comparing anything to Lincoln. What you're doing is an executive order. You compare it to what Lincoln did, welcoming the slaves in 18 -- in the 1860s. Please.

PERINO: If you're going to compare -- if you want to compare yourself to Lincoln, let others do that.


PERINO: You don't have to do that for yourself.

GUILFOYLE: He's such a back patter, oh my God.

KILMEADE: But both parties are for criminal justice reform, so they...

PERINO: There is a bipartisan movement. And -- but I will say, on certain legal issues, Governor Kaine and Governor McDonald, one Democrat, one Republican, when they were governor, asked about the constitutionality of this...

GUILFOYLE: But it wasn't constitutional. All right.

PERINO: ... and they both said was not constitutional under the Virginia state law. But that's why I think it will continue.

GUILFOYLE: Let the courts decide.

PERINO: All right. President Obama announced today he'll be sending an extra 250 forces to Syria to fight ISIS. Will that be enough? Our boss (ph) and "The Fastest Seven" still coming your way, so stay tuned.


KILMEADE: All right. Did you hear about this? The United States is expanding our military presence in Syria. President Obama today said he's sending up to 250 more special operators, mostly special operators to help local forces fight ISIS.

I spoke with a former general of U.S. forces in Afghanistan earlier, Brigadier General Anthony Tatta [SIC] -- Tata, I should say. He says the move won't amount to direct action and called it three-dimensional chess.


GEN. ANTHONY TATA (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Attacking ISIS is in our self- interest. Attacking Assad is in their self-interest, the rebels' self- interest. And so that's why you hear about four Syrian rebels trained after millions of dollars being spent. So we're essentially sending a Special Forces, Green Beret over there whose mission is to train and equip indigenous forces.


KILMEADE: Who there aren't many of. Here's the White House with more on the mission.


BEN RHODES, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: The mission that they're being given is not to go into Syria and to engage the enemy, to engage ISIL. So they're not being sent there on a combat mission. They're being sent there on a mission to, again, be advising, assisting and supporting the forces that are fighting against ISIL on the ground.


KILMEADE: So that's good news, America. We're not going to engage the enemy -- Dana.

PERINO: That makes me feel so much better.

KILMEADE: Fantastic.

PERINO: They're finally getting back to the warfare that Petraeus and McChrystal used in Iraq during the surge, and it was used in Afghanistan in 2001 to defeat al Qaeda and the Taliban.

I think that they should have been doing this in 2011. And had they done that, we wouldn't have to be sending back more special operators with less capability and no strategy. And it probably would have helped at least prevent or slowed down considerably the migrant crisis that is roiling most of Europe and threatens to hurt our country, too.

KILMEADE: Which is hurting relations with everybody and infiltrating a lot of refugees; and the rhetoric is hot and heavy.

The other problem is, Kimberly, is that 250 special operators not fighting ISIS with rebels that want to fight Assad...


KILMEADE: ... not ISIS. Rebels don't want to fight ISIS unless ISIS engages them. The people we are supporting and training are trying to get rid of Assad. We don't even have an opinion on Assad right now. We're trying to kill ISIS.

GUILFOYLE: But guess what? That's what it seems like we do. We're trying to actually train the people that want to take down Assad. What kind of mess is this? And I mean, 250 Special Forces, this is all because President Obama doesn't want to commit real ground forces, you know, to defeat ISIS.

Actually, this is not moving the ball forward or down the court or whatever you want to say at all towards defeating ISIS. It really isn't. And it's shameful, because it's bad strategy. You know, militarily, politically. And don't expect anyone else in the least to kind of take up, you know, our back on this. Because that trip he just took was a complete disaster, I mean, unmitigated. So there's going to be no support from allies there to kind of push this effort forward. That's what I think...

PERINO: It did come right after his trip to Saudi Arabia.


GUILFOYLE: Which didn't go well.

KILMEADE: And Eric, you're deep thinking?

BOLLING: I'm thinking two things. No. 1, 250, what's that going to do? I hate to put people over there that could be put in harm's way when we don't even know the way the country, it's trifurcated right now. You have the anti-Assad forces. You have ISIS. And yet, the Assad forces, we've tried to get behind one or the other times, and then they turned out to be the bad guys.

[17:40:05] Then Russia comes in. And it -- I've said this consistently: the best thing that we can do is support the Kurds, the Peshmerga on one side, support the Iraqis on the other side, and push everyone back into Syria. Let them figure that out.

KILMEADE: Juan, the only thing...

GUILFOYLE: They don't want to anger the Iranians. That's why he's not going to provide the Kurds with the weaponry that he's been promising to them for years.

KILMEADE: Well, the one thing that we can agree on, that ISIS is our enemy. So take out ISIS. ISIS gives birth to the Islamic extremists who allow these other networks to flourish in Brussels, in Paris and San Bernardino. So wipe out the power before -- before this Plantar's wart infects the entire region.

WILLIAMS: Sorry. Infection has already spread, doctor. I mean, this -- there are radical Islamists now in Africa, in Europe, I mean, you can go all across -- no, what it means is you have to do it strategically.

Today, the president was meeting with the Italians, the French, the Germans in Germany. And what they're talking about is not only the fact that you're going to put in these additional forces. And it's not just 250. There's a large force now of Americans. I wouldn't say a combat force, but I'd say enough in terms of these advisors and so forth.

They're on the ground, trying to figure out exactly how we can get people on the ground to act aggressively and effectively against ISIS and also used cyber security to try to take out...

KILMEADE: There's nothing that said it's illogical, but it should have been done three years ago. Today, the front page of "The New York times," "We're going to start using cyber -- cyber-attacks."


KILMEADE: Really? Take your time. You should have been doing that three years ago. They've been tweeting out and recruiting. We've done nothing to stop it.

WILLIAMS: No, I think you have to be careful about the civilians on the ground. They have pretty much given up on that. You see...

PERINO: Ones that are left.

WILLIAMS: Right, so that's the problem. And Dana's talking about, in terms of...

BOLLING: So who are we supporting? Why not...

GUILFOYLE: Yes, but you know what we're supporting? Like...

BOLLING: Anti-Syrian forces? Are we supporting...

WILLIAMS: Of course. We're not pro-Assad.

BOLLING: Well, we've got to choose a problem, because some of those anti- Assad forces ended up being ISIS. They were totally against Assad.

GUILFOYLE: It's actually -- it's actually...

WILLIAMS: We're totally against Assad.

GUILFOYLE: This is -- it's a huge problem. And then the Free Syrian Army forces, they're actually close to the allies with all the other territory, al Nazra and with al Qaeda. So that's who we're arming.

KILMEADE: The last -- last thing that I was asked to do last week, no one wanted to do. You guys really were into this. Thanks so much.

I've got to tell you what's straight ahead, on a lighter note: Rosario Dawson...


KILMEADE: ... Beyonce Knowles and Tom Brady, coming up in the Fastest Seven. Got to take a wide shot.


BOLLING: Welcome back. Time for...


GRAPHIC: Fastest 7


BOLLING: ... "The Fastest Seven Minutes on Television." Three provocative stories, seven precipitous minutes, one principled host. First up, check out Sanders surrogate Rosario Dawson. Actress Rosario Dawson dropped this bombshell on the Hillary campaign.


ROSARIO DAWSON, ACTRESS/BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: We are really fending for ourselves right now. We are literally under attack for not just supporting the other candidates.

Now, I'm with Monica Lewinsky with this. Bullying is bad. She's actually dedicated her life now to talking about that. And now, as a campaign strategy, we are being bullied. And somehow, that is OK and not being talked about with the richness that it needs to.


BOLLING: I'm with you, Rosario. Bullying is bad. Wasting no time, Senator Sanders pushed back. Just kidding: he doubled down.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Rosario is a great actress, and she's doing a great job for us. She's been a passionate fighter to see that we increase the voter turnout. Our job right now is to contrast our views compared to secretary Clinton. That's what a campaign is about.


BOLLING: So what do you think, Dana? Did Sanders do the right thing there?

PERINO: He's trying to win. So we were talking earlier, like their strategy and, you know, they're colluding on the Democratic side to figure out what the best language to use. You bring up Hillary Clinton -- or, I'm sorry, Monica Lewinsky and you're a Democrat, that's like those are fighting words.

I actually don't think that most of the young people that are voting for Bernie Sanders, most of them, were they born when the Monica Lewinsky thing happened? Maybe they were toddlers.

They've already -- Democrats have pretty much factored in Monica Lewinsky and decided it doesn't matter. I don't know if it was worthwhile.

BOLLING: What do you think?

GUILFOYLE: I thought that that was very brave and passionate. You know, what she has to say is a very nice woman. I've met her before and in San Francisco. Look, she said what she believes in. She doesn't try and do what's most popular. So she's being authentic in her viewpoint.

What I thought was even more interesting was that Bernie Sanders backed her up and he didn't, like, you know, throw her under the bus. That was kind of refreshing.

BOLLING: Interesting, Juan. Because I mean, the path to Sanders being the candidate is unlikely. So this is all, like, positioning going forward for him. Is that the right position for him?

WILLIAMS: No. But, I mean, I'm trying to think, what is the point? If she's trying to skewer Hillary Clinton by bringing up Monica Lewinsky, that was awkward and ineffective. So what is she trying to do? She says it's about bullying, but it, you know, comes across to me as patently absurd. She's really trying to bring up Monica Lewinsky. So how does that help Bernie Sanders? How does that somehow hurt Hillary Clinton?

I see how it hurts Hillary. I'm not sure if it helps Bernie.

KILMEADE: I think you guys are looking too deep into this. The bottom line is, Sanders people are getting pushed to get out. And she is on next, so she can call up Bernie Sanders, get him on the phone tomorrow. She's Rosario Dawson, a very successful, famous actress. And she feels it. And she's -- she said to her, so this is a line in the sand. We worked truly hard. We've already defied the odds. I'm not going to be pushed out. Give me a microphone. That's where everyone was going.

PERINO: They're like those dogs that don't want to go to the bath. They're, like, holding onto the walls, "I'm not going."


BOLLING: It's painful for them to do. Just go in. Just go in.

All right. Beyonce revealed her much-anticipated new album this weekend with a world premier HBO special, for "Lemonade."


BEYONCE, SINGER (SINGING): You don't love me like I love you. They don't love you like I love you. They don't love you like I love you. You see there's no other man above you. What a way to treat the girl that loves you. They don't love you like I love you. Slow down. They don't love you like I love you.


BOLLING: All right. Real quick around. K.G.

GUILFOYLE: I didn't even think that sounds like her. I guess it was her, because I saw her moving around, and where was she? Is that Cuba? Like what's happening?

BOLLING: World premiere, HBO special.

WILLIAMS: Well, the way that she puts out music is setting the trend. I mean, she breaks barriers with this stuff.

I must say, the gossip about it is all about her relationship with her husband and whether or not they're having a little trouble. But to me, what was, you know, interesting about it was how deep and intimate and personal. And the idea that she's now saying, you go through stages of grieving over various things in life to young black women, and she wants to be the model.


PERINO: She says -- I admire her very much in terms of an international superstar. As Juan was saying, the way that she rolled out this new album just shows that women are very creative and are at the top of their game in the music industry.

KILMEADE: Have they ever heard of private counseling? She's cutting an HBO video. She's doing a video about infidelity, alleged infidelity with her famous husband?

PERINO: Maybe it's not about him.

KILMEADE: Isn't that embarrassing? The couple -- are they supposed to repair this?

GUILFOYLE: A lot of property damage.

KILMEADE: If anyone doesn't need album sales, she could just cut an album. People will buy it.

BOLLING: Do you remember that infamous elevator video?


KILMEADE: Solange? Solange?

BOLLING: Where her sister was smacking Jay-Z, allegedly -- allegedly over this possible infidelity with -- with another person. Let's leave it like that.

I know. I must say. I'm going to get yelled at if I say a name.

All right. Remember when this happened?


TOM BRADY, QUARTERBACK, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: You know, I didn't alter the ball in any way. I have a process I go through before every game, where I go in and I pick the balls that I want to -- the footballs I want to use for the game. When I picked those footballs out, at that point, you know, to me, they are perfect. I mean, I feel like I've always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules.


BOLLING: All right. Today, a federal appeals court overturned a district court ruling that erased Tom Brady's NFL-levied suspension. Therefore, Brady will likely sit out the first four days in the next season, unless of course, the courts overturn the overturned penalty that was overturned. Get it?


WILLIAMS: This is -- it's not about Tom Brady at this point. I mean, he - - I think he won, because he got to play.

KILMEADE: No, he didn't.

WILLIAMS: He got to play last year.

KILMEADE: He's going to miss four games.

WILLIAMS: No, no. Now. I'm saying last year, when they -- in the immediate aftermath. He got to play this season. Now it's about the rules.

KILMEADE: The judge made the comment that we think not only he was complicit, that he was -- that he was not honest about it, wasn't cooperating with the investigation, 2-1. Three judge. The appeals court said what every person knew.

Tom Brady knew about it. He didn't need to do it. He was looking for an edge. He dug deeper down. People lost their jobs because of that, and he destroyed his phone to stop the -- stop the trail.

PERINO: I always thought that he should have -- if he would have helped the guys that lost their jobs, that it would have been more forgivable.


BOLLING: Final thought, K.G. Wrap it up.

GUILFOYLE: Should have dropped it like it's hot in the hot tub, that phone. Whoops.

BOLLING: Leave it there. "One More Thing," up next.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, it's time now for "One More Thing," Dana. What do you have?

PERINO: So last night, Greg Gutfeld and I went to Hershey, Pennsylvania, where we did a little show at the Hershey Theater with Flat Jasper, which was great. It was a lot of fun. Everybody there was wonderful. Thanks for coming out. Thanks for all the support from "The Five." We talked about everybody's books here at the table, talked about our books.

But here's something funny that happened.

GUILFOYLE: Very nice.

PERINO: So right before the show, Gutfeld and I were getting ready to go out. And I went, and I said, "Are you ready?"

He goes, "Hey, there's been a change. So, I'm going to go on for 30 minutes, and then you might come on for five. Is that OK?"

And I thought it was funny; it was like a joke, he was cutting me out of the show. So I tweeted that. And everyone believed that he had actually cut me out of the show. He didn't. I actually got to perform, as well.

KILMEADE: So damage control. Did a little damage control.

PERINO: Trying to help him, because people were mad.

BOLLING: You had a good time, though, right?

PERINO: It was fun. We had a great...

GUILFOYLE: Eric, you've got a big...

BOLLING: I do. Big announcement. Andrea Tantaros, our colleague right here at FOX News, her book comes out tomorrow. You can buy it tomorrow. You can preorder it now, "Tied Up in Knots." And let me just read a couple of blurbs from it. "Andrea explores how women have let guys off the hook in relationships, much to their own detriment. She exposes how we've become a nation now opposed to intimacy. And it's a wakeup call for society to remember what we all really want out of life, love and work.

So congratulations, Andrea. Check out the book.

KILMEADE: There was a great column in "The New York Post" about that this weekend.

GUILFOYLE; Yes, she wrote a column in it. Yes.

All righty. Spend some money people. Go buy the book.

Eric, you then me, I guess, right?


GUILFOYLE: OK. I was trying to read this.

OK. So this is actually very -- for people who love the military like we do, this is very nice. So this is World War II dog tags found in a yard that were returned to a family. Can you imagine this?

So in early April, brothers in law Eric Besau and Steve Scott were planting trees in Portland when they found these dog tags. Now, through online research and putting a little effort into it, they found out who they actually belonged to. And it was Mary Argianas, who was born in 1920 and passed away six years ago from colon cancer. So she was enlisted in the women's army, believe it or not. So they met up with the nephew, handed these back. And it was quite an emotional reunion with that. Very, very nice.

WILLIAMS: All right. Well, it was a big, big weekend in Chicago for my son Tony, Antonio, and his bride-to-be, Erica. They had the bridal shower this weekend. There you see them opening gifts in Chicago. The wedding is Memorial Day. And so Erica's family -- there you see Jay and Gordon and Erica and the whole family lined up. Four girls. Erica is the oldest and Antonio and Erica with Delice, my wife, who went out for the big event. And she won. She won a teacup and a tea kettle at the bridal shower. So they had a great time. Thanks so much to Jay and Gordon for welcoming my son into their family.

GUILFOYLE: Very nice.

KILMEADE: Congratulations to you and your family, and congratulations to American Airlines for standing up and saying stuff we all know. The TSA is destroying America. They say they're understaffed. The lines are so long, 6,800 people missed their flights because the lines are over an hour long. If you've ever been to the airport, it's the most aggravating thing yet. The TSA says, "What do you want? You cut our budget. We're down to 42,000 people. We've got to check in millions on a daily basis." So nobody takes responsibility. We all miss our flights, we carry the bag.

BOLLING: TSA are big fans of the show.

GUILFOYLE: That's it. Set your DVRs.

PERINO: It's not their fault.

GUILFOYLE: "Special Report" is next. Thank you, TSA.

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