Bombshell or bust? 'The Five' break down key moments from Amb. Gordon Sondland's impeachment testimony

This is a rush transcript from "Special Report with Bret Baier," November 20, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Jesse Watters, along with Katie Pavlich, Juan Williams, Dana Perino, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."


JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: That was well done.

WATTERS: The impeachment spectacle continuing on Capitol Hill. Actually, you know what? Trump is now talking about said impeachment spectacle. Let's go back to the president.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: -- a political operative. These gentlemen know he's a political operative, and frankly, the IG should have never brought this, because if he would have compared what the whistleblower said, he would have compared it to what I said in the conversation -- two conversations, really -- but to what I said in the conversation with the president, who I think is a terrific person, of Ukraine, he would have said, “Well, wait a minute. The whistleblower said this, and that wasn't the conversation, because we have the transcribed conversation.” And also, shifty Schiff -- he's a dishonest -- he's a corrupt politician. When he imitated or tried to copy my conversation, he didn't copy it. He made up a conversation, went before Congress, and made up a phony conversation, just like he does every time he talks. He's a phony. He's a very dishonest, very corrupt politician. So, instead of -- and, look, the big upset, as you folks know, was when I released the transcript, because I don't like doing that, because you have to keep this very, very classified and confidential when you're speaking to heads of state. But I released it because Schiff and the whistleblower made up a phony deal, and I'll tell you, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. The press should be ashamed, and they ought to end the witch hunt right now.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When you said to Zelensky, “Do the right thing,” what did you mean by that?

TRUMP: I didn't say that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When you told (inaudible) --

TRUMP: He's already done the right thing.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When you told (inaudible) --

TRUMP: Because the president -- if you look -- of Ukraine and his spokesman, the foreign minister -- they put out there was no pressure whatsoever, none whatsoever, and you knew that. You knew that very well, but you're fake news, and you should be ashamed of yourselves, and you should –

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (unintelligible) the Hong Kong (unintelligible) –

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (inaudible) to investigate the Bidens?

TRUMP: The Bidens is a whole different story. When you talk about corruption, when you have a guy that made no money, his father becomes vice president, and all of a sudden, he's getting millions and millions of dollars from Ukraine, from China, from all of these countries -- you just see two of them. This guy made nothing. He got thrown out of the Navy. He couldn't get a job, and then his father becomes vice president, and the press doesn't want to report it because the press is dishonest. So, I think it's a disgrace. I think the whole thing with Biden is a disgrace. (CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (unintelligible) from China (unintelligible)?

TRUMP: Well, we're looking at that, and, you know, the problem we have is you have Samsung. It's a great company, but it's a competitor of Apple, and it's not fair if -- because we have a trade deal with -- you're right, we made a great trade deal with South Korea, but we have to treat Apple on a somewhat similar basis as we treat Samsung. Now, with all of that being said, we're doing very nicely with China, but I like it the way it is now, because we're taking in billions and billions of dollars, and we're giving some of that money to farmers and others. But we are looking at Apple. What I wanted Apple to (inaudible) I said someday we're going to see Apple building plants in our country, not in China, and that's what's happening. It's all happening. It's all the American dream. Our country has never done better. It's doing better than it's ever done. Unemployment at the lowest levels; the numbers just came out today. African-American, Hispanic-American, Asian-American, the lowest they've ever had in the history of our country. So, we're very happy.


TRUMP: Say again?


TRUMP: So, I can tell you this. China would much rather make a trade deal than I would.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Then why haven't they?

TRUMP: Because I haven't wanted to do it yet.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why haven't you wanted to do it yet?

TRUMP: Because I don't think they're stepping up to the level that I want?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I still (unintelligible) bad for business, and it would be bad for the United States.

TRUMP: I know, but –

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will the tariffs (unintelligible) --

TRUMP: Here's what I say.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: -- (unintelligible)?

TRUMP: Here's what I say. What do you know? I put in tariffs. Everyone said, “Oh, gee, you're taking in billions” -- hundreds of billions of dollars will be taken in, and everybody said, “Oh, that's going to be bad for the economy.” Well, as you just heard from Tim Cook, we have the strongest economy by far in the world, and we're taking billions and billions of dollars. So, we'll see what happens. We are dealing with China. I have a great relationship with President Xi. They're a great country, but we're a greater country than China. If I didn't win right now, China would be a bigger economy than the United States, but because I won, we picked up -- we (unintelligible) a new net worth, $11 trillion in worth, in value, and China has lost probably $25 trillion. We are much bigger than China right now, and we're going to keep it that way. Thank you all. Thank you very much.


WATTERS: All right, that was the president reacting to this week's impeachment hearings and a bunch of other stuff, and we're going to wait for today's second hearing to start. Department of Defense official Laura Cooper and David Hale, State Department official, will be testifying in a little bit. Earlier today, ambassador to the E.U. Gordon Sondland facing off with lawmakers. He whipped Democrats in the media into a huge frenzy when he said this in his opening statement.


AMB. GORDON SONDLAND: I know that members of this committee frequently frame these complicated issues in the form of a simple question. Was there a quid pro quo? As I testified previously with regard to the requested White House Call and the White House meeting, the answer is yes.


WATTERS: After Sondland said that, Adam Schiff quickly ran to the media microphones to declare victory and case closed, but then the ambassador had to answer actual questions, and it turns out his story has some major holes. Here's just one example.


SONDLAND: There were so many different scenarios floating around as to what was going on with Ukraine, so rather than ask the president nine different questions -- is it this? Is it this? Is it that? I just said, “What do you want from Ukraine?” I may have even used a four-letter word. And he said, “I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I just want Zelensky to do the right thing, to do what he ran on,” or words to that effect.




WATTERS: Today was a very confusing day for everybody.

PERINO: I followed along perfectly.


I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I know.

WATTERS: I believe Sondland was confused himself. From my understanding, it looks like he comes out and he says there was a quid pro quo. He was talking about a White House meeting. The president wanted a White House meeting, but not until they announced an investigation into the 2016 elections and into Burisma. So, that's not a crime; it's just PR for PR. That had nothing to do with military aid. And at the end of the day, maybe this blockbuster testimony wasn't as blockbuster as people believe.

PERINO: Well, like with most days of this testimony, I have heard from friends on the left who say, “Slam dunk. Amazing. We did so well today,” and from Republicans who say, “It's over. No problem. This guy was a total joke.” So, I think both sides will try to tell their story, and we can get into all of that. I felt like during the hearing that the Democrats were excited to have him, and then they were like, “Wait, no, we're not so excited.” And then it was like the Republicans and the Democrats got so frustrated with him, and he was just there saying, “I just was trying to do my best.” He's not a note taker, and his memory is, as human memories can be, faulty. He's like, “I'm not exactly sure of the dates and the times and the calls,” plus the State Department won't allow him to access his records, so he can't actually go back and look at it. So, the members of Congress are so frustrated, and then you get to this question from Representative Turner. “Did -- no one on this planet told you Trump was trying to aid -- tying aid to investigators, yes or no?” and he says, “Yes, no one ever told me that.” And I think the Republicans will try to say, “There we go.” Now, we saw -- I talked about polls earlier today. Like, the polls on impeachment are not going in the Democrats' favor at all. Well, maybe I shouldn't say “at all.” On the ones that we've seen so far, especially, like, in Wisconsin, an important battleground state; eight percentage points more than before. Did people say, “We don't think impeachment a thing?” That doesn't mean he's going to win, although he's up against all the other possible opponents, but I think that if you have a persuade, you don't have many persuadable Democrats are going to say he's guilty. The Republicans are going to say he's not. For the people that are in the middle, I don't think it's going to be very effective for Republicans to go out and say perfect call. No problem here. I think they need some sort of an off ramp so they can say the aid got to the Ukrainians. We support the Ukrainians. We are for this for our national security. We want to continue to do this. This does not rise to an impeachable offense. And I think that's where the Republicans will probably be most successful after this test.

WATTERS: And they may get an off ramp from the IG report and Durham, which puts it all into perspective. Greg?


WATTERS: Did you wake up at 9 and watch the hearings minute by minute?

GUTFELD: Well, first I woke up at 9:00 and then I walked home. No, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I understand this better than most people in the media. And it's because I ran stuff for a living. Right? If you manage things. We talked about this earlier, Dana, in your office. We talked about how anybody who's involved in management, which means hiring or firing or dealing with budgets, dealing with human resources. We look at this and we're going like, wow, this is just how the world works. And you understand how so many people in the media, they don't have a talent stack. Right? They have a singular vertical experience from journalism and high school journalism and college being promoted through the ranks as a journalist. They don't have a collection of versatile skills. So, they don't you understand. It's like why journalists are so bad with writing about businesses and writing about the economy is they have no financial backgrounds. They're pathetic right? And the people whose hairs are on fire on Twitter or the media reporters generally have almost no experience whatsoever in the outside world. They don't go to an office and have to deal with the like people asking for raises or having to cut staff. So, when it comes to issues about business or employment or human interaction, there are abject failures. So, I use this example. There is a period in your life as a businessman where your personal goals and your professional goals coincide. Right? Joe Biden is a political rival. You investigate him. He benefits the country and it benefits the leader. That is where a professional and a personal goal coincides. Likewise, we have a great hair and makeup staff at The Five. Personally, it makes me look great. Professionally, it helps the show because if I look good, the show does better. If I look like a slob, it doesn't. In this case, the personal and professional goals coincide. When you're the President of the United States and you're dealing with a person who may be dealing with a corrupt country, a known corrupt country in the past, possibly in the future, it may benefit you to investigate him, but it benefits the country as well. Ain't no crime. Just a fun time.

WATTERS: Juan, would you like to respond to that?

WILLIAMS: I don't know where to start with Greg on that one. I think this was --

GUTFELD: I do look good, though, Juan.

WILLIAMS: There's no question. You're looking lovely. In fact, I would say you look marvelous. I think this was a bad day for President Trump. And, you know, one way to look at it is always to check out what other people are saying. So today I was with Dana. We were doing the coverage and I noticed that Ken Starr and Andy McCarthy both thought Trump had a bad day, especially after that first the morning session when you heard directly from Ambassador Sondland. It was dramatic in terms of that damning opening statement. It was clear that he was saying, was there a quid pro quo as you played in the soundbite, Jesse? He said yes. And if he had not said that there was a quid pro quo, it would have been absolutely deflating for the Democrats. This was what the Democrats had advertised, this is going to be our John, and this is going to be a key moment. Afterwards, Adam Schiff said this was a seminal moment today. And that's what it turned out to be.

WATTERS: But what was the quid pro quo for Katie? It wasn't with the military aid.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it was.

WATTERS: No, it wasn't.

KATIE PAVLICH, GUEST CO-HOST: This is when details, especially for journalists, really matter. So the opening statement in the morning when he says there's no quid pro quo. He admitted this was something that he was presuming to be happening and he was saying that it was with people working for Trump. Later in the afternoon, he then said directly, the president has never told me to engage in a quid pro quo. He hasn't asked me for that directly. He's never said those things. So while he inferred from people he was working with overseas that maybe that's what was being asked for. He didn't implicate the president directly as an order coming directly from the White House. But that being said, I don't think Adam Schiff really cares about any of the facts or whether they're good or bad for Republicans. He is moving this thing forward no matter what happens. He ran to the cameras during that break to talk about articles of impeachment that he wants to put forward. I guarantee you he's going to write one up on bribery and the other one up on obstruction of Congress because he talked about it today, whether they're valid or not. And so, get ready house, because Adam Schiff is driving the train and you're going along for the ride.

WATTERS: Yeah and they're going to impeach him for tweeting. Also, remember that not every impeachable. All right. Much more on today's impeachment hearings. The second one is set to start very soon.


GUTFELD: That's giant swan. Welcome back. The second yes, the second impeachment hearing is set to start soon. I can hardly wait. The media, of course, declaring victory before Republicans even had a chance to ask Ambassador Gordon Sondland questions earlier. Let's take a look, shall we?


WOLF BLITZER: I can't emphasize how explosive this is.

MALE SPEAKER: Very explosive.

MALE SPEAKER: So explosive.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Completely devastating.

FEMALE SPEAKER: It's a problem for the White House.

FEMALE SPEAKER: I think Gordon Sondland's testimony today changed everything.

MALE SPEAKER: Every fantasy about how corrupt this administration was is actually true.


GUTFELD: I don't think I want to hear about any of Toobin's fantasies. (LAUGHTER) Because the hearing dragged on forever, Sondland's lawyer had to cut in with this plea.

Male Speaker: Mr. Chairman?

Adam Schiff: Yes, counsel?

Male Speaker: Ambassador Sondland had intended to fly back to Brussels to resume his duties at the end of the day, and so it would be of great convenience to us if we could have a shorter break now and resume with the members' questions and try and wrap up in time that he might be able to make his flight.

Adam Schiff: I appreciate that, counsel. We all have a busy schedule these days. The memoranda questions should take, I think, slightly less than two hours, so I think you should be good, depending on the time of your flight.

GUTFELD: Oh, Adam Schiff is such a jerk, Dana. You know what he is? It's like he knows that you have a three-day weekend planned with your family, and he comes into your office and goes, “Can you stay a little late and work over these expense reports?”

PERINO: Yeah, we need to look at our six-month-ahead calendar. (LAUGHTER)

PERINO: So, stick around for that.

GUTFELD: But I have to catch the Amtrak at 8:00 p.m.

PERINO: That's why you should -- like, when you have something that you don't want to have to go to you always schedule something more important afterwards, right, so that you can -- you have to have some way to get out of the situation.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think that was Gordon Sondland there.


PERINO: No, that's what I mean. So, Gordon Sondland was like, “I know. Let's get the flight so that I can have a good excuse,” but I think that -- one -- what's interesting to me about Gordon Sondland, I know that he wants to go back and do his job. I think it's going to be very difficult for him to do so. I think that because -- I think he has to wonder tonight, does he still have the confidence of the president? Remember Yovanovitch? She was fired because the president lost confidence in her. And how can he continue to do his job when every world leader is going to be very suspect about his ability to do his job and his -- I'm not questioning his credibility. I just think the appearance of the problem of him not being able to get the president on the phone and have the confidence of Mike Pomepeo is going to be a problem.

GUTFELD: Do you think this excuse --

WILLIAMS: (unintelligible) --

GUTFELD: Wait, do you think this excuse to leave for Brussels just sprouted up?

WILLIAMS: Oh, that's --

PERINO: Today?

GUTFELD: Brussel sprouts (unintelligible) --

GUTFELD: No, I just wanted to make sure that I was giving him a good laugh. (LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: I just wanted to make sure I got it. Yeah, Brussel sprouts. I get it. Thank you, Greg.

GUTFELD: All right, what's -- you know what? It's for the kids watching at home, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Is that it?

GUTFELD: Because I care about the children.

WILLIAMS: I appreciate that. But I was just going to add that I think that you have to consider with today's testimony and the fact that he's going back, who is Gordon Sondland? So, for me, I was thinking, you know, the idea that, oh, a lot of these people are Never Trumpers -- I don't think he's a Never Trumper. I think that he gave a lot of money to President Trump; he's been -- he was selected by Mike Pompeo and the president. He said people asked him, “Do you speak to the president often?” He said, “Well, do you consider 20 times?” I think that's a lot. And then secondly, I think that you can't say this is the deep state. Again, he is a Trump guy. And finally, I would say this really struck me, that he said that, you know, his properties -- I think it's in Oregon, Jesse -- are being surrounded, picketed, threats to his family.

GUTFELD: By Dems, right?

PERINO: By a Republican -- by a Democratic congressman who led the charge against him.

WILLIAMS: No, he said -- but he indicated that there were Republicans who had said nasty things about him. So, again --

PERINO: But the attempt to hurt his business did start with the congressman from Oregon, and one of the things that he did, for example, is they encourage people to write bad Yelp reviews, to be in the lobbies disrupting things so that as a patron you wouldn't want to stay there.

WILLIAMS: So, the final point on this is, you know, you can lie to reporters, but you can't lie to Congress, as, you know, people like Roger Stone have found out. You can go to jail. So, what we have seen, though, is no documents being released, no Pompeo, no Giuliani -- and I think that's getting hot. You know, where is Rudy Giuliani? No Bolton, and I think Bolton must be sitting there thinking, “I know a lot about this.” No Mick Mulvaney, except they're playing tapes of Mulvaney saying, “Oh, yeah, get over it. So what? There was a quid pro quo.” No Mike Pence. And where is Donald Trump?

GUTFELD: Well, Juan, let me -- Jesse, we started off talking about the media. We have to remind everybody that this narrative has been pushed from the very beginning. They tried out the same faces, the same names, and the same accusations. We can't -- how can we trust these people who pushed obstruction and Kavanaugh and collusion now? How can we trust them now?

WATTERS: We can't. And the media has no self-awareness. I mean, they cooked up a hoax for three years; that fell apart. The same week that falls apart, where Muller's thing blows up, they cook up this new whistleblower scandal, and then they have to expect the American people to go along for another year of this. The American people are busy. The American people are tired. What Sondland thought about the interagency process with regards to a military aid package to Ukraine is just not seeping into the consciousness of the American public. Trump's Gallup numbers are up two points since. Independents are against impeachment, up 10 points since. In Wisconsin -- Dana just mentioned -- support against impeachment; it's going the other way. So, I just don't think these are really breaking through. In the morning, I thought, “Wow, this guy has the goods. He has it on quid pro quo.” He starts answering questions; no quid pro quo at all with the military aid. In fact, Trump never mentioned, quote unquote, “security assistance.” “I don't want anything from Ukraine.” The only quid pro quo he assumed was they wanted a White House meeting in exchange for an announcement of an investigation. Not even an investigation, an announcement. So, PR for PR, and what that's about is this. It's a corrupt country. Trump doesn't trust it because they colluded with the Democrats. A new president; they're supposed to throw all this money out there without checking in to see if this guy's legit? Send us a signal, Zelensky, if you to corruption seriously. We're looking for a signal. Do we have a signal? Hey, the money got out anyway. It doesn't even matter at this point.

PAVLICH: Well, and after saying that “the president didn't instruct me to do some kind of quid pro quo on the aid for investigations,” he also said, “I don't think the president should be impeached.” That's something that he talked about. But I want to pick up on what Dana said about it being difficult for him to go back and do his job, because the State Department now is releasing a number of pushbacks, saying that his suggestions -- Secretary Pompeo was aware of, you know, investigations for political reasons, that any claims of that in his testimony are completely false. They're also saying that he had access, like any current employee, to all of the documents that he wants when it comes to this investigation. So, they're pushing back on that hard. The Pence office also released a statement today pushing back on some of the things he said.

PERINO: What's weird about that, Katie, though, is that -- I understand that -- like, the real-time pushback and the ability to tweet out and the statement from the. Department of Energy, like, but they're refusing to cooperate, and this guy has to get a lawyer, go in front of Congress. He is under threat of having to go to jail if he's caught a lie because he doesn't remember something from before. I mean, he's got a lot more on the line than -- and if the State Department is saying that he had access to all the information, then Sondland ought to maybe get a different lawyer, because that's not what he said.

GUTFELD: You know what I'm learning? You know, it always sounds really exciting to be an ambassador --

PAVLICH: No. Always say no.

Multiple Speakers: Always say no.

GUTFELD: So, to anybody who's offering me for an ambassadorship, unless it's, like, a really tiny country nobody cares about --

PERINO: I want to be ambassador to Tanzania, but that's the only one.

GUTFELD: What about the -- I would be to the Vatican.

WATTERS: They don't want you there.

PERINO: Oh, you want to go to the Vatican?

GUTFELD: I would be a great ambassador to the Vatican.


WILLIAMS: I think Newt Gingrich's wife beat you to that. (LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: I know, I know, but she's going to get bored. I'm in there. Second impeachment hearing of the day set to start any minute. We'll be right back.


PERINO: Welcome back. You're looking live at Capitol Hill, where today's second impeachment hearing of the day is set to start any minute. We will take you there. Department of Defense official Laura Cooper and David Hale, he works at the State Department. They are going to be testifying. But there is something else that is happening tonight, Katie, and that is another Democratic debate where you have 10 or 11 people on stage in Atlanta. Do you think anything will change tonight? Do you expect any fireworks? Buttigieg is on the rise.

PAVLICH: He is on the rise. I think we're getting obviously getting closer to Iowa. Elizabeth Warren is really trying to pull ahead of Bernie Sanders and a lot of different ways. She's had a lot more pressure in the last month since the previous debate about her policy. She rolled out her Medicare For All, which requires a number of steps, including immigration reform, to actually get to it. And then she wants to eliminate everybody's private health insurance. So I think Joe Biden will probably go after her on that.

PERINO: Bernie, maybe as well, because she said she wouldn't do it until the third year of her term.

PAVLICH: And he also has accused her of kind of stealing his ideas and repackaging them.

PERINO: He wrote the darn bill.

PAVLICH: And Kamala Harris also has a new ad out today about prosecuting the president. So we'll see if Tulsi Gabbard takes her down again on her own.

PERINO: What do you expect out of Mayor Pete tonight?

WATTERS: Well, Mayor Pete's going to have a lot of incoming. He's up in the polls. So everyone's going to come after him and the moderators are going to go at him. I think some of the other candidates, maybe Biden or Bernie or Warren, are going to go after Mayor Pete. So this is the first debate where you'll see if Mayor Pete can kind of stand in the center of the ring and volley with the punches. Who knows? We're not going to know until we see. Biden has not raised a lot of money. He had a goal, hasn't even reached it. And he's got more damaging information about how he conducted himself and how his son conducted himself in Ukraine. Warren needs a good night because she's lost momentum. And Bernie is going to be Bernie. And I just expect some of the other lower caliber candidates to kind of throw a haymaker or do something wild to kind of rejuvenate their campaigns, because in the next month or so, you could see some more dropouts.

PERINO: Juan, what do you think about the fact that it seems like each of these top tier candidates has a different constituency? So you've got younger people for Bernie. You have white, liberal, college educated women for Elizabeth Warren. Pete Buttigieg has got sort of like the cocktail circuit, the Amtrak wine circle or whatever they call it. Can anybody pull together all of these groups? And I should have mentioned Biden as well. He's got, of course, the older voters.

WILLIAMS: No, I think that there's some points of commonality, principally beating Donald Trump in 2020. I think that's pretty clear. And then, you know, coming out of the hearings today, Dana, I think you're going to hear no argument about whether or not President Trump should be impeached or whether this was a bad strategy. You hear from Republicans the idea, oh, this is going to drag on, it's going to detract. Even tonight, people say, hey, are you watching the hearings or you're going to watch the debate? And I don't think you're going to hear any disagreement on the stage. In fact, I think they're going to say, hey, the last --

PERINO: Don't they need to disagree?

WILLIAMS: In the last few days, Roger Stone, you know, convicted, right? We know about the other -- I think it's four or five people, you know, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen and others who have been convicted in this. And now you have in today's hearing, Ambassador Sondland saying, oh, you know, we played the hand we were dealt. We didn't want to work with Rudy Giuliani, but that's what we had to do. And then you had Secretary Perry, Vice President Pence and now Pompeo there are putting out statements. They're adding to the fire. And I think that fire reflected on stage as Democrats rage at Trump tonight.

PERINO: I have a different prediction. I don't think they're going to talk a lot about impeachment. They talk about their programs.

GUTFELD: I think they feel like they're being overshadowed. You know what's missing, though? A Trump, a candidate who will come out there and immediately congratulate Joe Biden for becoming a grandfather. You know, now that the DNA tests came out. Tulsi might do that now that the DNA test says Hunter had a kid from a woman in Arkansas. Or somebody said anybody going to bring up a Buttigieg's stock for stock photo controversy? Right?

PERINO: I didn't know that.

PAVLICH: Oh it's really bad.

GUTFELD: Yeah. I mean, he used to show that he had black voters, he used stock photography from Kenya.

PAVLICH: Yeah, he actually made a list of 400 African American endorsers or supporters in South Carolina, many of them were either white or they hadn't endorsed him. And the stock photos were from Africa.

PERINO: That's not a good one. Not a good view.

WATTERS: You know what else is significant? We were just talking -- a lot of people didn't even know there was a debate tonight because this has overshadowed everything.

PAVLICH: And I think that if the judge is smart, he will say the House can go through the impeachment process. But if he looks at the swing state polls, if it's all about defeating Donald Trump and he sees that pull out of Wisconsin, which shows a negative 13 on impeachment, he's going to want bring that up and think about that.

PERINO: We're going to take a quick break, because a committee looks like they're coming back. We'll be right back.


WILLIAMS: Welcome back. We're looking live at Capitol Hill. The second impeachment hearing of the day is about the start. Department of Defense official Laura Cooper and State Department official David Hale will be testifying. Jesse, it seemed today in that earlier hearing there was a lot of talk about Rudy Giuliani, and I wonder if, from your perspective, you're starting to see Republicans say, “Hey, maybe Rudy Giuliani is going to get run over here because we're trying to save President Trump.”

WATTERS: I've heard that theory. I don't think they're going to need to deploy that theory.

Content and Programming Copyright 2019 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2019 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.