This is a rush transcript from "The Five," February 19, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
DANA PERINO, HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Katie Pavlich, Juan Williams, Lawrence Jones, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is “The Five.”
Bernie Sanders is back, the Vermont senator jumping in the race for president, Sanders came out swinging in his announcement, taking swipes at President Trump and promising to finish what he started during his 2016 run.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, I-VT: Together, you and I and our 2016 campaign began the political revolution. Now it is time to complete that revolution and implement the vision that we fought for. Our campaign is not only about defeating Donald Trump, the most dangerous president in modern American history. It is not only about winning the Democratic nomination and the general election. Our campaign is about transforming our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: But does Sanders have a better shot this time around? The self- described socialist says his progressive agenda is becoming more popular amongst Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Many of the ideas that I talked about, Medicare for all, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, making public colleges and universities tuition free, all of those ideas people say, oh, Bernie, they're so radical. They are extremely -- American people just won't accept those ideas. Well, you know what happened over three years? All of those ideas and many more are now part of the political mainstream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: Sanders is also taking shots at Howard Schultz, accusing the former Starbucks CEO of blackmailing Democrats. He claims that Schultz is threatening to run as an independent in order to force Democrats to choose a more moderate candidate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Why is Howard Schultz on every television station in this country? Why are you quoting Howard Schultz? Because he's a billionaire, all right? There are a lot of people I know personally who work hard for a living, make 40,000, $50,000 a year who know a lot more about politics than all due respect as to Mr. Schultz. But because we have a corrupt political system anybody who's billionaire who can throw a lot of TV ads on television suddenly becomes very, very credible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: OK, the moment we've been waiting for, Greg. Bernie, he's back, he's running.
GREG GUTFELD, HOST: I'm very excited. Before I get into his chances, having a socialist call a capitalist dangerous is rich. The socialist who fails to see that his platform only ends in misery. Socialism is great at promising something, but has no idea how to fulfill the promise which is why it always ends up in coercion, misery, and ultimately death.
There's -- you can look at Venezuela, Cuba, Cambodia, East Germany, Ethiopia, Romania, Poland, USSR. The only sad thing is all of socialism is ugly and disgusting but Bernie is likable. He's like your crazy uncle who maybe washes his hair once a week, doesn't think it's valuable to wash more.
But the conflict is within his own party. The left loves his ideas, right? Tax and spend socialist, but he has three strikes against him, old, white, and male. He stinks of Bengay and Jell-O. In the intersectional beauty pageant he's coyote ugly.
PERINO: All right. Do you think, Lawrence, that he was under estimated in 2016 but now overestimated in 2020?
LAWRENCE JONES, HOST: Well, I think he was underestimated but I believe people should take him seriously because although he won't win, it's a bigger move in play. For example, people thought his ideas were funny before but then you've got the AOC's of the world, you've got the press release, the Tulid.
So this new freshman class showed that you can actually get elected on running on these policies. But I have to blame Democrats for that because they didn't define their message. They didn't connect with voters.
And so, Bernie saw a void with the American people and he connected with those people, much like how we got Donald Trump because the Republican Party, the traditional Republicans didn't connect with the people at home. And so, they wanted someone who was going to make radical changes. They may not win a presidential race but in the next 20 years, they may be at play.
PERINO: Juan, is Bernie, in some ways, this time around a victim of his own success because he ran and he got all -- the Bernie bros were so excited, and then he gets frustrated because the super delegates, and now he basically has people that support his ideas, but the DNC has changed the rules. If you're going to run in the Democratic National Committee primary, then you have to register as a Democrat, something he has actually never done.
JUAN WILLIAMS, HOST: No, I think he -- I think he will play. Let me just say, I think the question, does he register as a Democrat is an interesting one for me because I think, for him, it would be an identity shift.
WILLIAMS: I mean he's always been the Vermont socialist. And I think it's added to part of his allure in that he's willing to go there and not respond to the taunts from the far-right about socialism. And by the way - -
GUTFELD: Or just normal people.
WILLIAMS: No, I don't think normal people --
GUTFELD: Normal people know socialism -- it's not a taunt. It's a reality that's ended in death.
WILLIAMS: I don't think you want to say that there are no normal people in Denmark, Norway, England, Germany, France. There's a lot of people there. And I don't think you want to say it's not normal people in the United States who backs social security, Medicare, V.A. or --
GUTFELD: At socialism?
WILLIAMS: All subsidies --
GUTFELD: That's socialism.
WILLIAMS: -- all the government making decisions about how to help people get through this --
GUTFELD: It's in a decentralized system, it's different.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that's right. So, guess what, you want to label all of these programs socialist, but maybe they're not. Maybe they're for people in our country, Greg, who are struggling --
GUTFELD: I am for a safety net. I'm not for socialism.
WILLIAMS: But there's a difference at a time when we have rampant income inequality in this country.
JONES: What does that mean? What does it mean?
WILLIAMS: I'll tell you exactly what it means. It means -- Lawrence, when you think about it, it's something like 0.6 percent of Americans right now, the top 1 percent have more wealth than the bottom 60 percent.
PERINO: Let Katie have the floor.
KATIE PAVLICH, HOST: Can I say something? First of all, Juan, you're wrong. There are more millionaires and billionaires now than there ever have been.
WILLIAMS: That's true.
PAVLICH: The middle class and the median income has gone up and the gap is actually closed between the rich and the poor. Back to Bernie Sanders --
WILLIAMS: OK, go ahead. Let me just say --
WILLIAMS: -- talk about covering over reality. The reality is that right now -- I just did this last week in a column that says 7 million people right now in our country, three months behind on car payments, 40 percent of the country can't afford an emergency expense.
PAVLICH: Juan, there's --
GUTFELD: And that's temporary because they're often young.
PAVLICH: -- there's 6 million jobs that are unfilled right now in America - - there's 6 million jobs that are unfilled right now in America. AOC just ran Amazon out of New York which is going to pay people $150,000 a year. But back to Bernie Sanders, he's an authentic guy selling a fraud. It's a shame that he doesn't wash his hair that often because he has lots of bathrooms in three different homes to wash his hair, right?
This is a guy who is claiming that the government can take care of you who, back in his early days of his socialist creed, said that bread lines were a representation of a good government functioning. People actually standing in line and waiting for bread in places like Nicaragua and South America. He wants that kind of socialism.
And so, when you bring up, you know, European-style socialism, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about Bernie Sanders who has embraced Venezuela, embraced Cuba, and has said the definition of a good economy is when people are standing in line begging the government because they were starving for some bread or some soup, whatever is left over.
WILLIAMS: No. What he's saying is a government that response to human need is a good government.
WILLIAMS: But you know what that goes back to? That goes back to the new deal --
PAVLICH: -- what they want, what they need on their own is a better government.
WILLIAMS: No, I'm all for it. But when you are in a situation like we're in America today, where you have heightened income inequality --
WILLIAMS: -- government should respond. And by the way, Lawrence is onto something. Don't ignore what he said about Bernie being the exact opposite of Donald Trump, the populist energy in the country.
PERINO: I'm going to ask Greg one more question. I'm going to ask him if I can. OK. So one of the things he says to -- about Howard Schultz, he says he's trying to blackmail the Democrats, right? Because if I run, and he runs, basically he's going to try to split us. That's blackmail, which I think it's a little bit of a strange thing for him to claim.
GUTFELD: And it's racist.
PERINO: But, couldn't you also say that when -- the Democrats are frustrated at Howard Schultz and they say you're going to help Trump win reelection. Isn't it -- couldn't be also be said that, no, no, Bernie, you're going to help Trump win reelection.
GUTFELD: Absolutely, the best thing that could happen for Trump is for Bernie Sanders to get the nomination. To put an actual bona fide socialist up against a capitalist in a country that created the greatest economic system known to man. What an education it will be for people in college and high school to learn about what socialism has done in all of these countries.
And he's not running just against Trump. He's running against Venezuela, because while he's out there, Venezuela will be crumbling. God knows what it will be like in 2020, whether it will be there or not. So we want -- we want Bernie to be up there and maybe he can choose another socialist. Or - -
PERINO: Double socialist.
GUTFELD: AOC. AOC is still too young.
PERINO: All right, we're going to talk more about that in the coming days. But coming up, Andrew McCabe defends Peter Strzok and Lisa Page in another bombshell interview. Plus, another major twist in the Jussie Smollett case.
WILLIAMS: Former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe making even more explosive claims. McCabe saying now that top congressional leaders did not push back when he told them the FBI was investigating President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW MCCABE, FOMRER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: The purpose of the briefing was to let our congressional leadership know exactly what we've been doing. Opening a case of this nature, not something that an FBI director, not something than an acting FBI director do by yourself, right? This is a recommendation that came to me for my team. I reviewed it with our lawyers, I discussed it at length --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you tell Congress?
MCCABE: And I told Congress what we have done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did anyone object?
MCCABE: That's the important part (INAUDIBLE), no one objected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: McCabe also defending his former colleagues Lisa Page and Peter Strzok against accusations of having anti-Trump bias.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCABE: Lisa Page and Pete Strzok are good people who serve this country well. They made some poor decisions in their private lives and in terms of the communications they exchanged with each other that's brought incredible grief and scrutiny on the FBI. I'm sure they regret that. But good people make bad decisions every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: What do you think?
PAVLICH: Lots of things. First of all, I can't believe Rod Rosenstein kept his job after all of this time. I'm surprised he wasn't fired. The only reason that probably didn't happen is because of the politics surrounding this. But my big question for Andrew McCabe which hasn't been answered is what was the insurance policy? They talked about this.
Peter Strzok and Lisa Page met in his office to discuss these things. What was the insurance policy? And there aren't any questions to Andrew McCabe about, you know, FISA abuse. And he's been accused by the president of breaking the law, whether that's true or not, we'll find out.
He has been referred for criminal investigation for lying. But the big question is did you break any laws when it came to getting information about the Trump campaign? How did you get the information from the dossier? And do you regularly use political documents from opposition research firms paid by opposing clinical parties to launch counterintelligence investigations?
WILLIAMS: Wait a second, I asked you what you thought about what he had to say but I understand your defense. But, I mean, obviously, he was interested in starting an investigation that couldn't be undermined or ignored if he was fired by the president. So I think that what he meant --
PAVLICH: I think he also said in a previous interview that he was trying to make sure that the Russia investigation was on solid ground.
WILLIAMS: That's what I'm saying to you.
PAVLICH: So far they have no solid ground when it comes to actual Russia. They have solid ground when it comes to personal crimes, tax fraud, taxi fraud in New York, but when it comes to Russian collusion, they have nothing.
WILLIAMS: So, Lawrence, when you listen to this, and especially when you listen to him say that members of Congress had no objection to the FBI's actions, what do you think?
JONES: Oh, it's not surprising at all. A lot of these people have been for the FBI, abusing their power for a long time. My question for you, though, Juan, as a Democrat, you guys used to stand what is libertarian on questioning the authority, the size and scope of the FBI and the intelligence community on spying on Americans, going after this witch hunt without any evidence. Why the sudden change?
WILLIAMS: Because there's a real threat. And I think that's what he said.
JONES: You don't know what the threat is.
WILLIAMS: No, he says --
JONES: -- identified it. There's been no evidence of it.
WILLIAMS: He says --
JONES: But you go on these fishing expeditions and Democrats were against this.
JONES: Come on.
WILLIAMS: Democrats were against --
JONES: Democrats have always stood with libertarians on the size and scope of the FBI and any other law enforcement community.
WILLIAMS: Not in this case.
JONES: Oh, yes, exactly, because of Donald Trump.
WILLIAMS: No, because there was a threat -- a threat of the president was a puppet of the Russians. But let's move on --
GUTFELD: Wait, I've got to address this because you're talking -- we're sitting here and we're talking about the so-called real threat. This was a destructive narrative that essentially hypnotized a large group of the public.
In this case, this fellow is selling a book which is again money milked out of conflict. But the fact is, the narrative created this. The narrative was it was unconceivable that Trump could win so it had to have been Russian collusion and he's a dangerous man and a threat to this country.
So I want to look at this narrative that we keep hearing about. The narrative is Trump is mentally unstable, a Russian puppet, and a bigot. You have seen what he has done to Russia, right, through Iran, through Venezuela. What he did to diplomats.
What he did to the oligarchs list, the missile treaty. He's no friend to Russia. You look at bigotry. Right now they are launching a global initiative to end criminalization of homosexuality. If that's bigotry, Trump is the worst bigot on the planet.
You want to talk about unstable? This is the most stable economy we've had in decades. We have low unemployment which is beneficial to women and minorities. Another bigot. Another terrible act of bigotry. Minorities are seeing jobs. He's doing -- the narrative does not match the deeds.
But this is what happens when you live in your own movie. That guy, McCabe, lived in his own movie and his movie prevented him from seeing the deeds that we now see, but now you're seeing it changing. You're watching people suddenly realize, holy crap, I've been living in a dream. This isn't real.
WILLIAMS: This sounds like what Matt Gaetz said the other day. Say, you know what, I don't feel bad that Congress, the Republicans in Congress were acting to undermine the FBI in this investigation, help president -- I think, what? How can you say such --
GUTFELD: That's a movie.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, it's a movie --
GUTFELD: No, you're in a movie.
WILLIAMS: Trump having silent --
GUTFELD: And it's a PG.
WILLIAMS: -- getting everybody out of the room so he can talk to Putin. Not a movie. How about the facts.
GUTFELD: You're a movie.
WILLIAMS: But, Dana, let's talk about this, he -- the president tweets this guy can't go to the bathroom without command from leaking James Comey. What do you think?
GUTFELD: Well, he's leaking.
PERINO: I mean, I don't feel like -- what was it? One of the presidential candidates says that they don't feel like a need to respond to every one of President Trump's tweets and I definitely feel the same. I would say -- look, do think a lot of this does goes back to Comey's early decision about commenting on the Clinton investigation while it was ongoing and having this confusing stuff going on.
And then, like, the FBI were really good men and women who work there, are like, well, wait, what are we doing now? We've never done that before. But, also, the behavior of Hillary Clinton made them have to investigate a presidential candidate, and then there's the Russia bit. So I feel like in some ways Comey is really at the center of all of this, and when the history is written on these years from now, you will look back and he was a linchpin of it.
WILLIAMS: All right. Up next, a seasoned journalist with some blistering criticism of the media. Oh, my gosh. Greg is going to tell you the story.
GUTFELD: A little Melvin's slip there, Dana.
PERINO: Oh, wow, it's delightful.
GUTFELD: We all know what news is, but do you know what's never news, when someone in the news tells you the truth about the news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARA LOGAN, FORMER CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And the media everywhere is mostly liberal. But in this country, 85 percent of journalists are registered Democrats. So that's just a fact, right? There's one Fox, and there's many, many, many more organizations on the left.
But the problem is that the weight of all of these organizations on one side of the political spectrum, when you turn your computer or you walk past the TV, they're all saying the same thing. The weight of that convinces you that it's true. You don't question it because everyone is saying it. I didn't even notice that there was a bias in the media.
If you read one story after another or hear it and it's all based on one anonymous administration official, a former administration official, right? I mean, that's just -- that's not journalism. That's (BLEEP).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: I could listen to that for hours. For us this is an obvious truth, yet the voice of the hive is so pervasive it goes unheard except we just heard her loud and clear. You already know what the media is thinking, Oh, FNC is going to eat this stuff up. You're right, so what?
Because whenever the emperor's new clothes are exposed, don't expect the emperor to tell you about it. The conformist media will sweep this under a rug, so it's up to us to burn that rug even if it's on top of Chuck Todd's head.
For decades, mainstream media defended their bias saying they aren't liberally biased, just truth biased. And, of course, the truth is always liberal, which is funny because we lost count of how many times the media has been dead wrong on so many things, from defending terrible institutions to reanimating bad ideas.
The only reason -- the only reason they never get called out is because they run the calling out business. And so the ideas they love born from teachers lounges and safe spaces continue to harm us and there's no speed bump insight.
So forgive us if we find Logan refreshing. She told you what you know already, the media is about conflicts, so there can only be two sides, the consensus among them and the marginalized you and all those ad dollars which back the consensus that keeps rolling in. The profit model for the news division isn't news, it's division, which is why in news there is no nuance. When it's embarrassing, there's not even news. It's either their side or the downside.
All right, Dana, I think she should be hired by Fox immediately. What say you?
PERINO: Well --
WILLIAMS: I thought it was a job interview.
GUTFELD: She got the job. By the way, bad news, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, I know. Well then bring her in. You know it will be just a chorus.
GUTFELD: You can't say that because she actually said that she -- this is -- she's realizing this and you can't just dismiss her outright for saying that she's like -- now she's part of the alt-right, Juan?
WILLIAMS: No, I thought --
GUTFELD: All right. Dana, your question before I yell at Juan.
PERINO: She is Generation X's Bernie Goldberg. So, in 2001, Bernard Goldberg wrote a book called Bias.
PERINO: He had just left CBS News. And what happened three years later after he published it, the Dan Rather piece which is what -- trying to take down George W. Bush with the fake documents about the --
PERINO: -- military service. So she left CBS in 2018 and she is free, much like Bernie Goldberg became free. It was like the scales dropped from your eyes and then you can see and you can say whatever you want. Besides, she did one of the best 60 Minutes reports, it's not about politics at all. She followed around this couple that focus on lions in South Africa. It was amazing. Maybe Botswana, but it was amazing.
GUTFELD: Interesting. I don't think Bernie would ever wear that dress.
PAVLICH: Maybe not.
GUTFELD: Maybe not.
PAVLICH: Maybe not. But can I just say the reason why she didn't realize that there was biases because she was out there doing real reporting.
PAVLICH: So the biggest criticism of her today is that some people are writing about this interview which was done by Mike Ritland who is a former navy seal, who served in Afghanistan, and I believe Iraq as well. He runs a podcast called Mike Drop.
She talks about all of these things she was doing. She's a woman in her 20s, single, went into Afghanistan alone at the time that 95 percent of the country was controlled by the Taliban. They were hanging women in the soccer stadium and she was going introduce a real reporting. She lived in Iraq for five years.
GUTFELD: She's attacked.
PAVLICH: She was cleaning blot off the equipment when her fellow journalists were killed. She was raped in Egypt. And yet, these journalists in the media critics are all criticizing her for calling out and telling the truth when she is exactly what they claim to be, the one running into the fire, like the firefighter, the one actually looking for the truth, the one doing the job and being on the front lines, literally, for her entire career.
So I listen to the entire thing, a three hour podcast, I wish it wouldn't end. Her story -- she's getting a lot of attention for the media by his comments, but the story she tells about Afghanistan and Africa and war coverage are incredible. I really --
PERINO: And I subscribed to Mike Drop today on your recommendation.
GUTFELD: There you go.
WILLIAMS: Well, I will say this to you, gee, there are a lot of journalists who go into the war zones and who are often treated as, oh, just liberal media, but guess they're in war zones on a daily basis. They're there tonight. And the idea that she put forward, oh, sources, just source fillers (ph), how ridiculous.
PERINO: What do you mean?
WILLIAMS: Sources are so important for any work interns--
PAVLICH: She knows it, because she worked with Taliban forces in Afghanistan.
WILLIAMS: Well, I am going to tell you, there were reports. And she talks about, oh! well you can only get the truth on certain conservative outlets. Well, what about - it's not just Fox. What about the Wall Street Journal? What about Drudge? Oh! My goodness. All number one despite whatever she has to say. Number one.
PAVLICH: Juan, Theresa said, both sides of the story.
WILLIAMS: Well, I'm just telling you that's out there and we're living in an era, where there is lots of niche journalism, but she says, Oh! You can't say that.
GUTFELD: Right now, number one.
PAVLICH: I'm surprised you're not defending this.
GUTFELD: Could I?
GUTFELD: Do you want to hear what she says about Trump. This is - she's talking about the coverage of Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the coverage on Trump all the time is negative. The former Executive Editor of The New York Times has a book coming out, Jill Abramson and she says, we would do - I don't know dozens of stories about Trump every single day and every single one of them was negative. She said, we have become the anti-Trump paper of record. Well, that's now our job. That's a political position. That means we've become political activists in a sense, and some could argue propagandists. Right. And there is some merit to that.
(ENF VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: I don't think there is any untruth here.
JONES: Right, solid truth. But I think the interesting thing about this is that because he is the current President, I think people forget if a Republican goes through.
GUTFELD: Yes. Sure.
JONES: I just think that people hate him so much when it comes to the media that is so out in the open now. And quite frankly, I don't think the media really understands that they're picking a side right now. I think they're so blinded by their own disgust of the President and their own bias that they don't realize that they're picking a side. One last thing, I think people criticize Fox a lot, but there is a clear line at Fox, news division and opinion.
JONES: And that line, it's open. They tell you exactly what they're going to do. And I think that's unfair for people to compare us to the other network and say, oh! the opinion people aren't doing hard news with their opinion.
GUTFELD: CNN, I cannot find where the line is half the time.
JONES: It's none.
GUTFELD: Watch Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo and you can't tell if it's Abbott and Costello or straight news. I don't know. And I like Abbott and Costello, don't get me wrong, Cuomo and Don. Talk to you later. All right, major update in the Jussie Smollett whatever you want. What police are saying next.
JONES: Major new developments in the Jussie Smollett case. Mike Tobin is in Chicago with the latest. Mike?
MIKE TOBIN, REPORTER: Hello Lawrence. There is a lot of activity at the Cook County Criminal Courts Building at 26 in California right now. And Roger Weigel (ph) with our Fox affiliate WFLD is outside of the grand jury room where he says he has seen the Attorney for the Osundairo brothers go into the grand jury room. Her name is Gloria Schmidt. If you remember the Osundairo brothers were picked up as persons of interest, cooperated with police. They had a long interrogation and were released and after that the police said that they wanted to have a follow-up interview with Jussie Smollett.
What we have been doing here in Chicago is waiting to see what will happen, if they will submit to this follow-up interview. No movement out of the Jussie Smollett camp and police said they had a reasonable amount of time before they did something else. We started hearing from a guy who knows a guy that they were going to go ahead and go with his grand jury.
But now we've got their local reporters here confirming that the grand jury proceeding is now underway. The question of course now, do you get a true bill or no true bill. Attorneys say that they will indeed go pick up Jussie Smollett if it is a true bill. And we're waiting to watch that development.
The other big development today came through a report through The Associated Press with neighbors in Smollett's building saying that they had seen the Osundairo brothers in an elevator in Smollett's own building. The Chief Communications Officer with the Chicago PD told our Matt Finn that they don't have any video of the Osundairo brothers in the building with Jussie Smollett and these streets or villa high end condos apartment buildings have tons of security, so that was largely debunked.
But now that the attention is not turned to that report, the attention is at the Criminal Courts Building at 26 in Cal, to see what comes out of this grand jury. Lawrence.
JONES: Thanks, Mike. Well Dana, the police have said, he's no longer a victim in this case.
PERINO: Now he's a suspect.
JONES: Yes. You're the PR professional. I mean what does he do now? I mean because he's a liar.
PERINO: I think he is going to have to decide how to get right with God and his way and he can ask for forgiveness. But he's got to get right with the people as well. And so, he took resources away from the police department and he also was willing to let innocent people go to jail and have their lives ruined so that he wouldn't get thrown off of a TV show. This is insane. And maybe he'll claim mental illness. Maybe he is mentally ill. I'm not exactly sure, but I do think about that that he was willing to let innocent people take the fall for something like this. That is really beyond the pale. And I do hope that they prosecute him.
JONES: Katie, some of the reports are saying that this started with a letter.
JONES: That he may have sent to himself which could turn this potentially, we don't know into a federal crime.
PERINO: Self-mail fraud.
PAVLICH: Right. Self-mail fraud. Yes. The evidence shows that the brothers may have been paid to write this letter which Jussie went on national television to say that it had a stick figure hanging from a tree with a gun pointing at it. It also had MAGA.
So, to Dana's point, this is a guy who apparently made up this entire thing, took away resources and then smeared an entire group of people who happened to be Trump supporters, the Make America Great Again slogan. And then all of his friends in the media, all of his allies in Hollywood amplified this fraud. And they haven't really apologized for it.
JONES: No apologies.
PAVLICH: And they should.
WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Who do you think the reporters are that Mike Tobin was talking about? Those are reporters in the media who are telling the story.
PAVLICH: I'm talking about the - I'm not talking about the local reported. I'm talking about the politically motivated activist Democratic media, which has amplified this story and from the beginning said How dare you say allegation.
WILLIAMS: Oh! I see.
PAVLICH: How dare you doubt this.
WILLIAMS: And I wonder which niche media is celebrating this like it's a triumph--
PAVLICH: It's not a celebration, it's a vindication.
JONES: It's not a celebration, Juan. But what we do know is that the media rushed to judgment on this. A lot of the celebrities went to Instagram posting photos saying that they're sorry that this is awful when it didn't happen and they should have waited to the facts, wouldn't you agree?
WILLIAMS: Yes. But I know a celebrity. I know Greg Gutfeld and he didn't rush to judgment. I said, we should wait. And I said we should wait. I think most people said if this is true, what happened? By the way, NAACP leader I think said, you know you can't treat him. He says, he's a victim. You can't treat him as a bad guy and have all these political judgments being made about him, because he said, a guy was wearing a MAGA hat. Let's wait.
JONES: No but can't go for the facts just like the local journalist did in Chicago.
JONES: Talked to sources.
JONES: What's that Greg?
GUTFELD: There is so many shoes dropping right now. I feel like I'm in a foot locker during an earthquake. So, why would someone do this? Everybody keeps saying, why would some successful young good-looking man do this, because the behavior is rewarded by a salivating media.
And what does it say to you when there are so many fake hoaxes going on. The demand for these stories by the media exceeds the supply. They can't find real hate crimes. So, the media gins it up, so that creates this artificial conflict. They need a nation filled with the pressures oppressing the oppressed.
And so, this is why I think we're doomed. OK. It's a never-ending cycle. The media pushes the hate narrative right. The people respond with fake hate crimes. The media eats it up. And then when you find out that they're hoaxes, the media just stops reporting it and then it happens again. They get this hate crime amnesia.
I will say this, I have a solution for Smollett and for everybody out there who does a fake hate crime. I've created a disorder that causes it. ASD, Attention Starved Disorder. OK. That's what you got. That'll be your way out. We'll forgive you, but just don't do it anymore, because this is going to destroy a country. You're trying to divide a country. Smollett's big crime was trying to divide a country and create a race war.
WILLIAMS: There is a spike in hate crimes in this country.
GUTFELD: Not true.
WILLIAMS: According to - guess what.
JONES: We've got to go. The American woman who join ISIS.
GUTFELD: I can explain it to you in the break.
JONES: And call for the murders of Americans is now begging to come back home saying, she made a mistake. Hear from her next on the Fox.
PAVLICH: An Alabama woman who claims she was brainwashed into joining ISIS in Syria is now begging to be allowed back into United States. Listen to what she told the Guardian.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know, I thought I was doing things correctly for the sake of good, and when I came here and I saw everything with my own eyes. I realized that I made a big mistake and I know I ruined my future and my son's future, deeply regret it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAVLICH: So, Lawrence while this woman was overseas, she tweeted anti- American things.
PAVLICH: She was trying to recruit other ISIS supporters. She went over there five years ago when ISIS was at its peak. The varsity team and now that they're being completely demolished and squeezed out. She wants to come back to America.
JONES: Yes. And if she comes back, we're going to send her to Guantanamo. And get all the information that we can get. We don't negotiate with terrorists. You don't get to kill innocent people then decide, oh! I was brainwashed into doing it. This is the problem. But you know what, we should set an example for her because there are a lot of Americans that are here that are homegrown terrorists that want to do the same exact thing. And I think the way to send a message is letting her come back at center of the Cuba.
GUTFELD: You know I just imagine when she comes here what her first job interview will be like, so what did you do before you came here? I was in ISIS.
PAVLICH: Just a gap in your resume.
GUTFELD: Yes, and the resume under skills, you put beheadings. I don't know how this is going to work. I don't want her back, because we will celebritize her, 60 Minutes, Good morning America. Then she'll be on TMZ. We're a fickle country. And if you look at Netflix, you have people swooning over Ted Bundy and I don't want it, I don't want - obscurity is what she deserves. I actually do believe in forgiveness and people do bad things in war--
JONES: That doesn't mean, no punishment.
GUTFELD: Yes. But the problem with ISIS, it began in evil. It wasn't like she joined a revolutionary group and they turned to atrocity. They started out atrocity. So, when you - she joined something that was atrocious.
GUTFELD: So, she should die.
PAVLICH: Well Dana, she tweeted about killing Americans and other people who are westernized saying, go on drivebys and spill their blood. Rent a big truck. I mean we saw attacks in Europe of ISIS affiliated people running over scores of people. I mean she wasn't just someone who went over there to be an ISIS wife. She was clearly part of the recruiting and the advocacy for terrorist attacks in Europe and the United States.
PERINO: And she speaks very well, and she sounds very humble and you could get suckered into it. But I think there has to be consequences for terrorism. And I realize that she's a young mother. But look, she made a choice.
GUTFELD: That's sexist.
PERINO: The problem for us is going to be that this is not the only one. Besides you have to punish this one, because ISIS is not an isolated thing. ISIS is just one version. There is going to be another ISIS and there is going to be another one and they're going to start a caliphate someplace else. And then if she gets to come back and relive her life in Alabama, does that mean that people in the future, if they go to fight in the new ISIS wherever that might be that they get to come back too. I don't think so.
But the world's governments aren't - can't say they weren't warned. Seven years ago, everybody talked about what are you going to do when these people go over there and there is no passport control and they're coming back. And now there is 800 of them over there. And the President is saying, your European governments are going to take your people back.
PERINO: They're like we don't want to take them back. OK. Well, you could have taken back. The courage, I'm not going to hold him. So, you are going to have to do something about them. This is - people usually work on a deadline like the deadline is now. They have no plan. But she's not going to be able to come back for a while.
PAVLICH: Well, and speaking of consequences, the consequence for treason is death. What do you think the consequences for this woman should be?
WILLIAMS: I don't know that it's treason. I think she was an enemy of us of the American people.
PAVLICH: But she's an American.
WILLIAMS: She's an American. She's an enemy. She sided with the enemy. I don't know if she killed anyone. But you know what? President Trump as Dana was saying is urging the Europeans to take back former members of these terrorist groups and put them on trial. So, I guess that's the standard that he would have adhere to this case.
JONES: Not here.
JONES: Absolutely not.
PERINO: You take an enemy combatant to Guantanamo Bay.
WILLIAMS: Well, you could, but still they have a right to a trial.
JONES: And secondly, we've got to be conscious of the ideology that she subscribes to. In her eyes, we're infidels and we don't know what she's telling--
WILLIAMS: Well, not anymore.
JONES: We don't know that. She could be a sleeper cell coming to this country to commit another attack.
WILLIAMS: I think you have to - the interesting thing about us is we as Americans is that we do believe in redemption.
PERINO: But I would much rather take care of the refugees that are in that horrible situation, in the refugee camp in Syria, I'd rather much and much about take care of the people who are trapped and innocent and they were trapped in the middle of that thing than somebody who made a conscious choice. She lived in America.
PERINO: And she chose to go to Syria. That's a choice.
WILLIAMS: Bad move.
PERINO: She's a traitor and then she helps them advocate for attacking innocent people. So, on behalf of the jihad. So anyway, One More Thing is up next.
PERINO: It's time now for One More Thing and Greg kicks us off very well. Go for it.
GUTFELD: It's time for Animals Are Great. Yes, it is. Animals are great. No matter how you slice them, animals are great. Now, you've heard about the - you aired about the food pyramid. This is - or the circle of life. This is the pyramid of death. Check this out. Here you've got a cat. You've got a cat eating a fish with the dog trying to get at the cat. I've watched this video on loop for almost six days. Sometimes, I don't eat. Sometimes, I weep quietly to myself and look at that cat, won't let go of the fish. And the dogs pulling on the cat's tail. This is a - chef was going to lead with this today. But I said no, I get first dibs.
Anyway, this is why animals are great. The producer told me that was too long.
PERINO: Yes. The kids out there. Do you really want to see why animals are great? I will provide that for you. Look at this, young smiles as a dentist office in West Virginia and it has a four-legged employee that's been making these rounds and bringing smiles to patients.
This is Tucker. He's a one-year old labradoodle. He was rescued by Dr. Martin and her family just last year and he's become a staple of the office, he helps keep patients calm. And make sure everybody is like not going to freak out, because they're going to be seeing the dentist. And they said everyone's made - I made friends with him and one patient seven- year-old Caden said that now she actually looks forward to coming to the dentist because of how much she loves dog. So, I'm recommending Dr. Tim Chase, smiles please, could you get a dog.
Also be sure to check out Jillian Ciardelli (ph) on Fox and Friends tomorrow morning. She is going to be singing a live performance of her song "Good at looking good". And then we're going to see her tomorrow night performing as well, so check that out tomorrow morning. And next is Juan.
WILLIAMS: How about a moment of joy on THE FIVE. This video is pure joy. That young man why it's four years old and has a spinal birth defect spinal bifida but being limited to a wheelchair obviously didn't stop him from getting on the trampoline. And as you just heard, he's even telling the trainer go faster. By the way, the video has gone viral and the gym, TNT Kids Fitness and Gymnastics is now getting requests to host more disabled kids. So, while you may have gotten a kick out of that video, let me assure you, your kick is no match for why it's thrill.
PERINO: All right. I love that. All right, Lawrence.
JONES: Kids are great.
GUTFELD: Speak for yourself.
JONES: All right. You may think that you like Beyonce, or love Beyonce. But you have nothing on this little girl right here. You've got to check her out. This is two-year-old, Baylor Mooney of Utah dancing like she's Beyonce, while holding a corn dog and blowing her hair and she's eating just like Beyonce, a beautiful little girl that has so much spirit.
JONES: Kids are great.
PERINO: Music next time, Lawrence. Kids are great.
GUTFELD: No, how dare you?
PAVLICH: That's great corn dogs, because they have animals in them.
PAVLICH: All right. So, you know that being a sports analyst seems like the coolest job in the world, but that comes with some hazards. Didn't even flinch, that's NHL analyst, Pierre Maguire. He found out Monday night that there is a thing as being too close. He was almost taken out by the flying hockey puck, lost couple teeth, maybe a broken nose.
GUTFELD: What a lost opportunity for a lower third. What the puck.
PAVLICH: This is the Tampa Bay Lightning's home game against the Columbus Blue Jackets, which they won. It's gotten viral.
JONES: Got to be more careful.
PERINO: This is why I don't like to go to baseball and hockey games.
PERINO: I'm afraid I'm going to get hit in the face, because I'm not paying attention, I'm talking too much.
GUTFELD: That could happen at the mall.
PAVLICH: He was watching the game. I was impressed, he didn't even bother him at all.
WILLIAMS: That happened here at the garden one day. Walt Fraser (ph) who is the announcer for the next set, a woman not paying attention.
PERINO: Take it back, Walt (ph). Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of THE FIVE. "SPECIAL REPORT" is up next. Hey. Bret.
BRET BAIER, ANCHOR: Hey, Dana. Thanks.
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