Ben Shapiro: Trump's comments about Ford not productive
{{#rendered}} {{/rendered}}This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum," October 3, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Thank you so much for inviting us into your home tonight. I'm Shannon Bream, that's it from Washington for now. I'll be back here at 11:00 p.m. Eastern for "Fox News @ Night." "The Story" hosted by Martha MacCallum, starts right now. Martha?
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS HOST: Thanks, Shannon. Good to see you.
So, breaking tonight, we await the FBI report on Brett Kavanaugh which could come out at any minute. Brand-new polls tonight to that shows support for Kavanaugh from the White House on down is galvanizing Republicans as they head into the midterms. We're going to break down those numbers, we'll show you all those really interesting polls that we just got in tonight.
But first, the fight gets ugly as Senators need capital police escorts on the Hill and fend for themselves elsewhere.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. BILL CASSIDY, R—LA., SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE: Why wouldn't I support Kavanaugh?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because rapists are bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator McConnell, why will you speak to this man and not to these women who are talking to you about their surviving stories?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your voice matters and it affects me and everybody!
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R—S.C., SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: I thought Kavanaugh was treated like crap.
AMERICAN CROWD: Boo!
GRAHAM: Yes. Well, boo yourself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM: And the pivotal votes work hard not to give away which way they're leaning right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI, R—AK., CHAIRMAN, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMITTEE: What I want is I want to see the report.
SEN. JOE MANCHIN, D—W.V.: How many times I got to tell you, I just want to see the report.
SEN. JEFF FLAKE, R—ARIZ., SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: We won't have a vote before the report comes. I mean, that was the deal. We would not have a cloture vote until we had the report.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM: And we wait for the report which could come at any moment. That is the president goes where he really hasn't gone at least in this saga taking some swings at the credibility of Christine Ford.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: 36 years ago, this happened. I had one beer, right? I had one beer. Well, do you think it was? Nope! It was one beer. Oh, good. How did you get home? I don't remember. How'd you get there? I don't remember. Where is the place? I don't remember. How many years ago was that? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: It gained a lot of criticism for that but you can hear the crowd in Mississippi last night. Joining me now, Ben Shapiro, editor-in- chief of The Daily Wire and host of the "BEN SHAPIRO ELECTION SPECIAL" which is wildly popular Sunday nights on Fox.
Ben, good to see you. Your thoughts on that first on the president last night, kind of taking those swings at Christine Ford.
BEN SHAPIRO, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE DAILY WIRE: Well, I mean, two things can be true once. One is that he can be pointing out some very real holes in Christine Blasey Ford's testimony. The second is this is not productive. I mean, the fact is that there are a bunch of Senators who are sitting on the fence, and any excuse for them to vote against Kavanaugh is a mistake.
So, the president -- you know, going out and doing this rally, obviously provides fodder for people on both sides of the aisle who want to avoid making the hard choice about Kavanaugh, and instead, just hope to dump on the president.
So, I'm not sure that is politically smart by the president. I am also not a big fan of him ripping into Ford personally. But, is he correct that they're a bunch of holes in Ford's story yet? That part he's right about.
MACCALLUM: He also raised the issue of men and young men and boys and the environment that they are in. And that prompted Alyssa Milano who as we all remember was sitting behind Judge Kavanaugh, as he -- as he answered the questions at the hearing with a notebook that said, "vote no on it." Here's what she had to say about -- you know, she basically says, "cry me a river" when it comes to man. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALYSSA MILANO, AMERICAN ACTRESS: Women, young people, have had it difficult for generations, and generations, and generations. And we will not be silenced any longer. And if that means that men have a hard time right now, then I'm sorry, this is the way the pendulum has to shift.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Ben?
SHAPIRO: Well, I mean, it's kind of shocking to suggest that due process shouldn't apply to men. I mean, that is the essence of sexism. The idea that certain rules should not apply to people on the basis of their genetics is -- that's obviously discrimination of the highest order.
But this is the world in which we now live in which white men are presumed guilty because they are white men. Because they're supposedly in a position of privilege. I wasn't aware that Brett Kavanaugh forfeited his presumption of innocence or due process of law simply because of the color of his skin or the nature of his genetics.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, it's a very interesting argument. You look back at Clarence Thomas, defending himself. He was an African-American man, a judge who wanted to sit on the court. And now, you've got Brett Kavanaugh in this unique position which I guarantee he never thought he would be in.
Where he's kind of -- you know raising the flag for white men and saying that they like everyone else need to be treated on an individual basis on the facts that support them or the fact that go against them in every case.
SHAPIRO: Yes. Well, mob rule is never a good idea. And the fact, that Brett Kavanaugh has been turned into merely a white guy, for purposes of this conversation by the left demonstrates that it really is the left that thinks in terms of race and sex rather than in terms of individual guilt or innocence.
I mean, Cory Booker said that today, right? Cory Booker, a Senator from New Jersey.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Yes, we have that Ben. Let's play that.
SHAPIRO: Yes.
MACCALLUM: Then, we'll get your reaction to that. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CORY BOOKER, D—N.J., SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Ultimately, not whether he's innocent or guilty, this is not a trial. But ultimately, has enough questions be raised, then we should not move on to another candidate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Your thoughts.
SHAPIRO: I mean, I think, the Cory Booker raises a serious question about his sanity nearly every day. But in order to oust him from the Senate, you would actually have to come up with the evidence that he's insane, not merely the implication that he's a moron.
MACCALLUM: I mean, it really is remarkable and everybody understands the construct of this hearing that we saw, it's not a court of law. But at the heart of it is the issue of credibility of these two people and whether or not there was a -- whether or not it was successful in terms of proving that this happened that night.
And I think even in the end, you're going to have people who feel unsatisfied by the amount of information that they had to base their decision on. But for each individual, aren't they deciding in their mind whether or not they think he was guilty or innocent?
SHAPIRO: No question. And the idea that this is just a job interview. So, if you raise a bunch of questions, that's enough. Well, that basically rules out anyone who's ever going to have a job on the federal level because it's not hard to raise questions about people. The question is how we resolve those questions.
This is not merely a job interview right now. This is a man who's been accused of attempted rape when he was 17 years old. If this goes the wrong way, it's not just that he doesn't end up on the Supreme Court. He probably loses his seat on the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. He probably never works again, and his family is destroyed.
So, the Democrats have decided to play it this way. They have the opposition before, now they're just trying to ratchet it up obviously.
MACCALLUM: How do you think this plays out? You know, sort of looking to the next few days for us, because you already feel as this report is about to come out, there is so much pushback from Democrats primarily at this point on all the things they haven't seen and heard, you know, there's kind of preparing their argument.
SHAPIRO: One thing I think Senator Flake -- yes, Senator Flake was basically gambling that by using this FBI report as sort of the final word that this is going to get Murkowski and Collins on board.
We'll see if he's right or not because that's really what it comes down to. I think, that there are a couple of red states, blue Senators who like Manchin, who are in trouble and may need to vote in favor of Kavanaugh if the FBI report comes back as clean as it's probably expected to. But this is so partisan at this point that I think this goes along party lines unless again, one of those two Senator shocks us.
MACCALLUM: What concerns you about this whole thing as you take a look -- at sit back, and you look at the big picture of it and the long-term implications for the country?
SHAPIRO: Well, I mean, the partisan nature of Supreme Court hearings have been known since the Bork days. But we're now seeing is that the willingness to believe in allegation. So, long as it's about your political opponent.
But that any sort of collaborative evidence, it really does spell the end of civilized society. No good person is going to want to go into politics knowing that they could just be destroyed in a moment's notice by any allegation of any sort brought by anybody. And that's not even saying that Ford's not credible.
MACCALLUM: Right.
SHAPIRO: I mean, that's just suggesting that you need some corroboration in order for us to actually believe that somebody's life and career should be destroyed.
MACCALLUM: Yes, that's a tragic implication. Ben, thank you. Always good to see you.
SHAPIRO: Thanks a lot.
MACCALLUM: So, we've some brand new Fox polls out tonight that we've been poring over, and they do give us a picture of how women in the country are feeling about the Kavanaugh vote. From the looks of it, two Democratic swing votes in the Senate, Claire McCaskill, and Heidi Heitkamp in North Dakota could suffer among women if they vote no on Kavanaugh.
You can see a majority of the women voters in those two states would be less likely to vote for them if they reject Kavanaugh. Here now, Kimberly Fletcher, she is a sexual assault survivor. And she's the executive director of the Moms March movement, a group that supports the confirmation of Judge Kavanaugh.
So, I mean, Kimberly that's the first question for you. You're a survivor of sexual assault. We've seen this as a real bonding exercise among a lot of women who have suffered sexual assault who feel like it's finally their turn to stand up and be heard. Why do you not feel like that as someone who has been through this yourself?
KIMBERLY FLETCHER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MOMS MARCH MOVEMENT: Well, I think this idea of creating this victim mentality is actually hurting our girls. And I decided that was going to be a survivor and a victor. You can chew - - you don't choose whether or not you are victimized. But you do choose whether or not you remain a victim.
And I was not going to give that to my -- the person who hurt me. I was going to be the victor in this. They can't control me. And so I -- you know, I am the victor. I think we need to tell that to our girls. You don't have to be a victim.
MACCALLUM: I mean, it's a very interesting perspective. When you watched Dr. Christine Blasey Ford, did you not find her credible?
FLETCHER: I think, the word credible needs to be investigated a little bit more. I think she was compelling. She was definitely compelling. And I do believe that there is definitely something that she feels that happened and it probably something probably did happen to her.
But the idea that she could say 100 percent that she knew who it was, but she couldn't answer a lot of the other questions, I think that's something that people need to start talking about.
The idea that women never lie and men always do. That sets up our men and our sons for some disastrous effects in the future. And I know, I'm hearing from mothers all over the country who are up in arms over this. And they're -- they just want it to stop and get this confirmation to move forward.
MACCALLUM: Yes, but you know, but you heard Alyssa Milano. I don't know if you heard that sound bite just a moment ago.
FLETCHER: I did.
MACCALLUM: She's saying, you know what, too bad. Women and -- have been suffering, children have been suffering in these cases for so long. And if men -- you know, feel a little bit beaten up right now, that's too bad, the pendulum has to swing.
FLETCHER: It actually hurts the women. And I wish that they would understand this. What they're doing by marginalizing an act of assault or violence against a woman and turning it into a political tool or weapon, actually diminishes the voice of every woman whoever may be assaulted or have violence or like in my case -- you know, where you were -- you were molested, and no one is going to believe you. How could they? When they're turning it into this political weapon.
And how can you say that you care about women when you're willing to do that? And the women that I talk to, I kept asking them. The women who are all through the Dirksen building with our belief women shirts, I said what if he's -- what if it's, it's not true. What if he didn't do it?
MACCALLUM: And what did they say to you?
FLETCHER: They said it doesn't matter.
MACCALLUM: It doesn't matter.
FLETCHER: That's what they told me.
MACCALLUM: That's scary.
FLETCHER: Yes.
MACCALLUM: That is really frightening. So, the message is we don't mind taken down a few innocent guys if it serves the larger cause.
FLETCHER: That seems to be the message. Pretty scary, isn't it?
MACCALLUM: Incredible. Kimberly -- yes. And you have a march. Tell us quickly about that.
FLETCHER: So, we had a conference today. And we are launching a Moms March. It's our second annual Moms March that we are holding in March in San Antonio. And the reason why is because we want an alternative voice to these radical feminists who are out there trying to demoralize our men, demonize them.
We want to be able to say "No, you know what, we love men." And there is evil in the world, but it's not all men. This idea that white men are the enemy of every person, every woman in the country, we want to turn that around. And that's what this movement is all about.
And we are going to be heard, we are rallying. Mama bears been poked, and there's going to be some changes in the conversation.
MACCALLUM: Fascinating. Kimberly Fletcher, thank you for bringing your thoughts to us tonight. Very interesting perspective. Good to see you.
FLETCHER: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, still ahead tonight, the New York Times tells President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You didn't build that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Basically, that's what they said about his company and surprise, surprise, President Trump punches back.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President's lawyer address some of the specific claims and walked through how the allegations of fraud and tax evasion are 100 percent false and highly declamatory. There was no fraud or tax evasion by anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: That was White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders slamming the New York Times earlier today over an investigation into Trump family finances that alleges "dubious tax schemes and it questions how the Trump fortune was actually built." The Times touting their own story is unprecedented in scope and precision but the President is blasting it as old, boring, and a hit piece. Leland Vittert has our back story. Hi, Leland!
LELAND VITTERT, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha. At the same time Sarah Sanders from the podium today couldn't point to any specific facts or issues inside that New York's Times piece that she had a problem with, in part from the president's lawyer. There was no fraud or tax evasion by anyone. This is Charles Harder quoted in the story. The facts upon which The Times bases its false allegations are extremely inaccurate. Of course, the line between aggressive yet legal tax strategy and tax fraud and evasion are often a murky one and in the end, are decided by either a civil or criminal court.
The undisputed fact is that Fred Trump, the president's father was a highly successful real estate investor, developer, and builder making a fortune in the boroughs of New York from the 1940s on. The New York Times raises questions about how Fred's fortune made its way to the now president without paying full freight on the inheritance tax. Some of the dozens of things laid out included by the -- by the age of three, Donald Trump earned a $200,000 a year salary from his father. By college graduation, that number went up fivefold. He received $5 million a year from his father into his 40s and 50s.
The famed $1 million loan from his father then-candidate Trump talked about on the campaign trail was actually multiple loans over decades totaling $140 million in today's dollars. It also lists the use of allegedly fraudulent billing practices and other questionable accounting methods to transfer assets from Fred to his children. If true and again the White House has not taken issue with any of the specific facts of the New York Times laid out, it destroys the president's narrative that is a self-made billionaire real estate mogul. That is a question of public perception.
Bill de Blasio, the Mayor of New York weighing in on the legal question saying that the city of New York is looking to recoup any money that Donald Trump owes the people of the city of New York period. That for the legal question for the states of New York and the city courts there to figure out. So it is entirely possible that the story that the New York Times printed is factually correct and that the White House is correct that the president, Martha, didn't engage in any illegal behavior of tax evasion or tax fraud, a question for the courts.
MACCALLUM: Leland, thank you. It is a very extensive piece and it's fascinating in many ways in terms of digging into the history of the Trump fortune. Good to have you with us. Rebecca Walser joins me now. She's a tax attorney and a specialist in all of this. So you know, one of my big takeaways was that the Times is arguing exactly the opposite of what President Trump argued on the campaign trail. He said you know, he gave me a million dollars and I made it into this amazing fortune. The Times' piece says no, no, no. It was -- it was dad who was super successful and that he gifted a lot of this money to his children in order to prevent them from having to pay too much taxes on that transaction. Is that true? Is that legal? Is that OK or not?
REBECCA WALSER, TAX ATTORNEY: You know, Martha, that strikes me that this is so comprehensive. I mean, this was an 18-month investigation by the Times, unprecedented, it doesn't even describe but I have access to documents, confidential tax returns, no idea how these records actually got into the hands of the New York Times. So that is questionable right there. But whether or not the -- however they got the documents, let's talk about what they show. And in the law we -- there's something called puffery, you know. So someone can say something that they believe to you know, be -- it's just -- it's bragging, it's a puffery, it's not something that we would say, oh, you've been completely fraudulently dishonest, you know.
And one thing we have to understand is since the beginning of the tax law code -- in fact, there's a famous case 1935 Gregory versus Helvering where Judge Learned Hand, one of the most famous jurists and all of American jurisprudence basically argued that there is no patriotic duty to prepare or pay more than you owe under the law. And that's --
MACCALLUM: Right. So as long as you're paying your taxes, you're allowed to be as creative as you can within the law.
WALSER: Within the law.
MACCALLUM: And that's one of the lines here. One of the -- one of the specific areas and they talk about valuation --
WALSER: Absolutely.
MACCALLUM: The valuations of the property, and they argue that the properties that Fred Trump Sr. had were valued at $41 million and it says the same set of buildings sold a decade later for 16 times that amount. So they're arguing that they mark them to market or they mark them in a way that was not appropriate.
WALSER: And at the same time that they state this, they also acknowledge that the appraiser that did the appraisals at the time of the passing of the estate was the same appraiser who's been doing this for 45 years and is appraised the New York's Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, the World Trade Center, so this is an appraiser who is you know, knows New York City. And by the -- by the way the IRS did attack the valuations and the IRS did get some evaluation adjustments. So this is not like they were able to just you know, oh this is only worth, look at this.
MACCALLUM: Those are period of extraordinary growth in real estate value.
WALSER: Exactly.
MACCALLUM: 1997 to 2008 right, before the market crash.
WALSER: What's happening here they're using a legal strategy using the GRAT, a Grant to Retain Annuity Trust. And any time you use a GRAT which by the way Mark Zuckerberg has a GRAT already, OK. So anytime you use a GRAT you get two things. You get a marketability discount if you don't have stocks which the real estate is not liquid like a stock and you get a minority discount. So there were basically the Trump's estate passed and two major GRATs Mary's and Fred's, and the children had to pay one-third of the balance in an annuity payment.
Any time you use a GRAT you're going to get these legal evaluations of massive deductions. So I think that it's you know, suspect to say that there's this nefarious scheme going on when this has been a part of the code. In fact, it was made famous by Waltons of the Wal-Marts family in 2000. So this was something that the IRS --
MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, even if you have to change the tax code that is this thick for a reason all the tax attorneys who make their living off of crafting these and reading the letter of the law so that people can you know, basically do what they can with the law.
WALSER: Completely legal.
MACCALLUM: You didn't see anything illegal in here?
WALSER: It's hard to make that assessment based on the story, right? I haven't seen any of the underlying documentation. One thing that did stick out to me though that I read the documents, they have the able to attach documents all along, and they really made this big deal about this all County Building Supply where basically -- Fred basically would buy all of - - would pay for all these purchase orders for all of his buildings and basically the interest instituted a company in 1992 to run all the POS through and they said they were getting these 20 or 50 percent markups. So --
MACCALLUM: So that's one thing that you have -- you have questions about?
WALSER: No, no. I actually think that it's normal. This is standard operating procedure now in 2000's by the way Martha. People will extract the management overhead operating businesses to an independent company and then they will basically do markups because there's a management fee for these things. So to assign a -- you know, an import -- some kind of scheme, I think the stretch really.
MACCALLUM: Thank you very much. Good to have you here, Rebecca Walser who taught us a lot of things about the tax law tonight. Good to see you. So coming up next, brand new polls in key Senate races show the Kavanaugh effect. Karl Rove and Chris Stirewalt on what's going to happen in the elections and what the impact is and what we've been witnessing in the past two weeks.
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MACCALLUM: Brand new polls showing Judge Brett Kavanaugh's battle for confirmation appears to be firing up Republicans across the country since the Kavanaugh-Ford hearings on Thursday. Republican's enthusiasm is up anywhere from eight to 11 points in places like Indiana, Missouri, and Tennessee. Now those same states showed Democratic enthusiasm shrinking anywhere from two to nine points since the hearing. So how does all of this translate to the polls?
In Missouri, Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill is down one while Republican challenger Josh Hawley in this time period is up two. North Dakota the Republican challenger Kevin Cramer now up by 12 over Senator Heidi Heitkamp. And in Tennessee where GOP enthusiasm increased the most, Republican Marsha Blackburn now leads her Democratic opponent Phil Bredesen by five
Joining me now Karl Rove former Deputy Chief of Staff to President George W. Bush and a Fox News Contributor and Chris Stirewalt Fox News Politics Editor. Great to see both of you tonight. Karl, let me start with you. What's your big takeaway when you look at these polls tonight?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the Republican enthusiasm is up. There's a very interesting poll out from Harvard Harris which showed that Republicans -- 46 percent of Republicans said they're absolutely certain to vote as a result of Kavanaugh 50 percent of Democrats. Now, Republicans have trailed Democrats on enthusiasm for several months now and so the Republicans have made up much more ground. And my sense is they could make up even more.
In the Harvard Harris Poll, 37 percent of the people after the hearing last week said they favored the confirmation of Kavanaugh, 44 opposed, 18 undecided. They then asked what would happen if the FBI did an investigation and found no corroborating witnesses to the allegations. 60 percent would favor confirmation, 40 percent would oppose, and nobody lacked an opinion on it. 52 percent of -- excuse me, 58 percent of Independents would support confirmation and 40 percent of Democrats would support confirmation if the FBI background check found no corroboration.
MACCALLUM: Interesting. I mean, the big if is if, right? We don't know what's going to be in this report and we're waiting for it to be released any minute now. But as you say, a lot of voters will be likely swayed by it one way or the other. Let's take a look at Indiana. Joe Donnelly is the incumbent Democrat versus Mike Braun. He has lost ground during the course of this, Chris Stirewalt. What's your take on that poll?
CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS POLITICS EDITOR: Well, a couple things. Lucy Brenton is a libertarian. She's very conservative. She isn't going to six percent of the vote in Indiana. And those vote -- Braun has not been a particularly strong candidate. Donnelly is in almost the most difficult situation of any Democrat as you saw from the poll on North Dakota. Heidi Heitkamp, the resurrected Lord, he could not Heidi Heitkamp through over the finish line this year. She looks all done.
MACCALLUM: Let's put the Heitkamp numbers up on the screen while Chris is talking about this and also point out that Donald Trump's approval rating in North Dakota is 64 percent at this point, Chris.
STIREWALT: She is absolutely done in. Now -- and so her vote is whatever she wants to do, right? She is going to lose. So, whatever she wants to do, she can do. She can either suck up to the voters at home or she can suck up to Democrats in the hopes of favorable treatment later on. She gets a freebie.
Donnelly is in a brutally difficult situation. It is so hard for him, because he does have a Democratic base in Indiana. There are liberal democratic voters in Indiana. It is pretty close paired Mike Braun is not a great candidate. This race is infuriatingly close for Republicans, and this is the vote that may decide it.
MACCALLUM: Karl, talk to us about independence, because obviously they are the voters to watch in the course of this. And when you look at some of these folks who are on the bubble, Jeff Flake and Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, Flake is not running again, Murkowski and Collins are not up for election this time around, so they have space to work it out with their voters, don't they?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, they do. And look, this is a question for independent voters fundamentally of fairness. If you are a Democrat, you think Kavanaugh should not be confirmed. If you're Republican, you think he should be confirmed. The people who are up for grabs aren't going to settle public opinion on this are people who are independents.
And as we saw in the Harvard Harris poll, their attitude is, well, today, I'm sort of leading against it, but if there is no corroboration, then I am strongly fourth, 58 to 30 somewhat percent.
Let me say one more thing about Donnelly. The reason that Donnelly -- he is in big trouble and has been so for a while. The Democrats over the last two or three weeks have spent an enormous amount of money in Indiana, and you can see how close it is, even though they have had a huge spending advantage for now going on two and a half weeks. Donnelly is putting in -- excuse me -- Braun is putting in some of his own money now. And so, the outside groups in the Braun campaign are going to equalize that spending. So, it strikes me that the Democrats have been giving it their best shot, and Donnelly could be in real trouble after the FBI report comes back because he jumped very quickly to say I want an FBI report and I'm against -- I'm against Kavanaugh.
MACCALLUM: Well, we have to go. But one of the interesting things is going to be if the confirmation doesn't happen and they have to look for new candidate, a new nominee, whether or not -- Republicans will be punished by voters for failing in this effort. Thank you, guys. Chris and Karl, always good to see you. Thanks for being here tonight.
So, Fox News Alert, U.S. Capitol Police -- this is a crazy story -- they arrested a Democratic house staffer who they believe was the person behind the leak of personal information belonging to Republican senators.
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MACCALLUM: Back with this Fox News Alert, just moments ago U.S. Capitol police have arrested a Democratic congressional staffer who was accused of posting personal information, known as doxing, to Republican senators on the internet. Trace Gallagher has all the late breaking details on the story from our West Coast newsroom tonight. Hi, Trace.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. This does appear to be a Democrat targeting Republican. It's called doxing, as you mentioned, which is short for dropping documents. And it happened to three GOP senators, all three are members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and the alleged incident happened during or shortly after the Thursday's hearing of Judge Brett Kavanaugh and his accuser, Dr. Christine Blasey Ford.
Capitol Police said that someone located in the House of Representatives anonymously edited the Wikipedia page of GOP senators Mike Lee, Orrin Hatch and Lindsey Graham. Apparently, the suspect added the senators' home addresses in both Washington and their home states, plus their cell phone numbers and e-mail addresses. The information then quickly made the rounds on social media. Here's what Lindsey Graham had to say about this. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: This is the second time I've had to change my phone number. The first time was when President Trump did this during the campaign. And I'm not worried about me changing my phone numbers. I am worried about my address being sent out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: And security experts say doxing is a huge concern, especially in the wake of the congressional baseball shooting that nearly claimed the life of Congressman Steve Scalise. Senator Rand Paul tweeted, quote, "This should be investigated and the perpetrators punished. There is too much hatred and violence in politics these days."
And now, Capitol Police have arrested 27-year-old Jackson Cosko of Washington, D.C., who most recently worked as a staffer for Texas Democratic Congressman Sheila Jackson Lee. He has also worked for California Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Boxer and New Hampshire Democratic Congresswoman Maggie Hassan. Jackson Cosko is facing a series of charges. So far, no comments from the senators affected, the ones who were doxed, but then again they've got their hands full with this FBI report about to drop. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Another investigation then underway. Trace, thank you. So coming up next is allegations about Brett Kavanaugh divide the country. Fathers from all walks of life have a candid conversation about raising sons in the #metoo era.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Guilty until proven innocent, that's very dangerous for our country. That is something to think about, right? Think of your son, think of your husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, it is an issue that has pretty much everybody talking in this country, a lot of concerns about due process in America, is Brett Kavanaugh's fate lies -- hangs in the balance right now. Statistics suggest that false reporting of sexually assault is very low, somewhere between 2 and 10 percent, but false accusations have the potential to ruin lives, as well, as we saw in this case and others.
Earlier this week, I sat down with the mothers of young men. Tonight, we asked the fathers how they are dealing with this. Gentlemen, thank you so much to all of you for being here. David, let me start with you. You know, you hear the president say what we just watched. He also said it's a scary time to be a young man in America during the #metoo era. What do you think?
DAVID INGRAM, FATHER OF TWO SONS: I would have to disagree as far as fear is concerned. I think that if we are doing a great job raising our sons to be respectful then there wouldn't be a worry for this. As I raise my son, I want to raise him no matter what a woman's respect comes first, and that is key. And if he lives his life that way then I fear -- I feel like there's nothing he would have to worry about.
MACCALLUM: I think that every parent would agree with you on that.
JOSEPH BEJJANI, FATHER OF TWO SONS: I have to disagree because actually we're talking about potentially false accusations. We're talking about secondary gains and potential incentives for lodging these false accusations. And I don't know how you can say that your son -- I mean you can raise your son as perfect -- as perfect can be, and yet he could be the target of --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he could be the --
INGRAM: What I'm talking about, however, a lot of times when something happens and you hear someone got -- there's an allegation against him, did he do it? People say, I'm not sure, probably not, but the fact that there is that a little bit of a doubt, that's an issue. When I raise my sons in the correct way correct way, when people say did he do this, I want the answer to be absolutely not. There's no way --
MACCALLUM: Brian, I mean I would imagine that Mr. and Mrs. Kavanaugh, who is sitting in that hearing, feel like they raised their son pretty well.
(CROSSTALK)
BRIAN MCALINDON, FATHER OF TWINS: -- Mr. and Mrs. Kavanaugh raised their son the proper way. He's an outstanding man. It sounds like he was an outstanding young man. However, what we're talking about is a false accusation, and are we eroding the idea of innocent until proven guilty, a pillar of due process in this country.
So, I think that he has shown through his testimony and through the almost miraculous fact that he kept explicit records of what he did during that critical summer and where he was that he was very credible, that he was very believable, and we have a witness who has brought a very severe and damaging charge at a critical point in his life that lacked detail --
MACCALLUM: I hear you. I want to get back to the issue of what will you tell your sons. Carlos, what do you say to your son because there is -- we live in an era where there's a lot of accusations, most of them are true, statistics show, but some are not.
CARLOS ACOSTA, FATHER OF ONE SON: This is for me a teaching experience. I have a son who is 21 -- just went 21, a daughter who is 19. When my son turned 21, leading up to his birthday in September, I told him be responsible when you drink, take an Uber. I've always taught him treat women with respect, the same way with your mother, sister, and your aunts treated.
With my daughter, when she went to college, I told her be careful. I said be careful when you put your drink down, be careful, don't take a drink from somebody else.
MACCALLUM: Yes. We'll tell them that now, right?
ACOSTA: And I told her -- this was before Kavanaugh was even on the radar. And she looked at me like I was an alien, third eye, and she got mad at me.
MACCALLUM: Well, you're smart. You're a parent and your wife. Norman, let me get your thoughts on this.
NORMAN REED, FATHER OF THREE SONS: First of all, I want to say, Martha, I have the utmost compassion for the daughters of this world. And I -- we all feel as if no one should be mistreated in any way of any kind, but I also have compassion for the sons.
And David, I have an issue with what you've been saying because it is wonderful, as a clinical psychologist and a trauma specialist as well as the father of three teenage sons, it is wonderful to aspire to raise them perfectly. But when you find out that they have ideas of their own, we now need to redirect and explain to them the ways of the world that are not necessarily the way they see it. And so, our journey with our children involves them teaching us while we teach them.
INGRAM: Yes, I agree with that.
MACCALLUM: I mean the reality is that in some cases -- and I really want to emphasize, we are only talking about 2 to 10 percent of the sexual assault allegations cases. However, they are somebody's son. And it does happen. I mean how would you feel if your son was falsely accused after you did a great job raising him and taught him all the right things?
INGRAM: I think that truth is truth, and sooner or later the truth will come to the forefront.
(CROSSTALK)
INGRAM: Again, it is a very subjective statement, but when we're looking at it in regards to what is happening now with Kavanaugh, a lot of people are saying, yes, this is damaging to him. However, we realize, there's no real penalty that will come about this if it happens. We are past the statute. However, this is a job interview. We are not talking about due process.
(CROSSTALK)
REED: Remember that perception is more important than reality in the eyes of the public. And so, if I, as a clinical psychologist and a child psychologist, is spoken about as if I have done something wrong behind closed doors, no matter how untrue it is, my career is over. And I don't want my sons have to struggle with false accusations or potentially false accusations that could ultimately ruin their name in the eye of the public, even if it is not true. Perception is more important -
BEJJANI: You cannot unring the bell. And as long as those false accusers, as few as they may be, get to profiteer from their accusations that will -- that corrupts the system.
ACOSTA: You keep saying profiting --
BEJJANI: She has $1 million already within those two weeks.
ACOSTA: And Kavanaugh, he has a GoFundMe page as well. So, neither -
MACCALLUM: Go ahead, Carlos.
ACOSTA: He has a GoFundMe page. He doesn't need the money and he has it as well.
(CROSSTALK)
BEJJANI: But do you think he is proud of this whole thing for his GoFundMe and did Kavanaugh started this thing --
(CROSSTALK)
ACOSTA: -- you were saying it's false accusation. How about 98 to 90 percent that are real accusations?
MACCALLUM: Yeah. But here's the problem --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: -- so, wait. Let me ask you guys something in the last minute that we have. Cory Booker said it doesn't matter if he is guilty or innocent. We've learned enough about him to move on. How can it not matter if he is guilty or innocent?
ACOSTA: Because all he did during the hearing deflect, attack. He didn't answer. He didn't answer the questions.
MACCALUM: So he is guilty in your mind?
(CROSSTALK)
ACOSTA: Yeah. I think something happened and I think -- we had a discussion in the green room, he should have said, this is the way I was back then, 35 years I've lived my life.
MACCALLUM: But if it wasn't?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that's the way he was.
BEJJANI: He likes beer. He drank. He wasn't a sexual predator. He drinks beer. That's his big guilt.
ACOSTA: He drinks beer --
(CROSSTALK)
ACOSTA: You have to understand too --
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Last thoughts.
ACOSTA: I love beer. I love bourbon.
INGRAM: If you live a life where there can be no doubt, that's the issue I am talking about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kavanaugh lived a life --
MACCALLUM: Who lives a life where there is no doubt? Who is perfect?
(CROSSTALK)
INGRAM: I'm going to raise my son -- I'm going to raise my son to whatever you do be completely and 100 percent respectful, understand that yes there are false accusations that may come about, but you have to live a step above that, always.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: All right. Guys, we got to leave it there. Thank you very much for coming.
So, President Trump's new alarm system setting off a lot more than just her cell phone today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, THE VIEW HOST: A lot about terrorist attack, I would not let that happen. I'm running around like a crazy person because he sent me something with his improper phone etiquette.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Jesse Watters coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALUM: So, I got the message at 2:18 today like everybody else. The president was testing out the new alert system, sending this message blaring across 225 million smartphones. I can't believe there aren't more than that out there. And some people are kind of in a tizzy over it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: I don't have trust in him. Remember what happened --
JOY BEHAR, THE VIEW HOST: He is a liar. How do you believe him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is because you can't stand the president.
HOSTIN: No.
BEHAR: No. He is a proven liar.
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, THE VIEW HOST: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so, what if he --
HOSTIN: If he gets to lie about a terrorist attack, I would not put that past him. I'm running around like a crazy person because he sent me something with his improper phone etiquette.
WOOLBERG: I don't want to hear from you. If I did, I would check your Twitter feed, but I'm not interested in you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: All right. So, if there's no big - if there's an emergency, they are just not going to pay any attention here. Here is Jesse Watters, host of "Watters World" and co-host to "The Five". Jesse, Jesse, Jesse, so they don't want to know. They don't want to be told in an emergency.
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: They don't want to know.
(Crosstalk)
WATTERS: Yes. I mean everyone is going to evacuate. We're going to have to go find Whoopi and say, Whoopi, it's going to cost a lot of money. I got the alert today, Martha, and I thought it was a hurricane warning.
MACCALLUM: Yeah.
WATTERS: And it turns out it was just Trump. I guess for Democrat that is equally as scary. Now, Trump has their number, literally -- literally has their number. I would not recommend sending emojis. I wouldn't put it past him, though. But you know --
MACCALLUM: Run for your life.
WATTERS: I know, I know. The president is the president. He's got to do what he's got to do. And you know what? If I got a text and tells me to get out of town, I am leaving.
MACCALLUM: Yes. But doesn't make perfect sense because we used to have - when we were kids, the one on the TV, which they might still do, which is like the circle that went around, beep --
WATTERS: Yes. This is a test of the emergency broadcast system.
MACCALLUM: Now, we're sitting watching TV and at least not as much as they used to, but everybody has the phone --
WATTERS: But everybody has the phone.
MACCALLUM: So, we need a new way. So, I say thank you for giving us, thank you for letting me know if there is an emergency. I don't really care who it comes from, I would like to know.
WATTERS: That's right. Trump, text me, let me know.
MACCALLUM: You want a personal text. He probably would text you, Jesse.
WATTERS: Why -- why would he do that?
MACCALLUM: To say something is coming. Because he likes to.
WATTERS: That's I guess the first warning.
MACCALLUM: All right. So, it's always dangerous when foreign leaders travel to other countries and attempt to dance, right?
WATTERS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: Because we've seen it happens a lot. Let's put up our picture of -- we have President Trump in Saudi Arabia, and I believe he was dancing. Waiting for the picture. So, just try to imagine -- there we go go.
WATTERS: Oh, boy.
MACCALLUM: President Trump dancing in Saudi Arabia with the swords, you remember that?
WATTERS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: And then we have --
WATTERS: He wasn't really dancing.
MACCALLUM: -- President Obama dancing, and then an upper -- let's see. We have President Bush in their dancing. In the upper left, look at Theresa May. Look at Theresa May, take a full -- here she comes. Don't you guys have any music on it?
WATTERS: There it is. There it is. Now here's the deal, Martha. White people can't dance. But white people --
MACCALLUM: Why would you say that?
WATTERS: -- but they think they can dance and that's when you have Theresa May fear when you're confident and you have no skills. I wouldn't do --
MACCALLUM: I think she's got a lot of rhythm.
WATTERS: What is this? What is this? What's with the hand?
MACCALLUM: She is doing the robot. To her credit, I want to point out that she was in Africa and she danced and she got made fun of. So then when she spoke at this forum, they played Dancing Queen by Abba when she walked out and she kind of -- she went with it. You get a little bit of credit for going with it.
WATTERS: British people cannot make fun of Donald Trump anymore. It's done. We point to Theresa May. That's it. Her career is over now, right? Is that it for Theresa May?
MACCALLUM: I think she -- she is in trouble, anyway, separate from dancing.
WATTERS: That didn't help.
MACCALLUM: You got the Brexit issue, but I think -- I think she - I think it humanizes Theresa May.
WATTERS: I don't think she needed to be humanized.
MACCALLUM: So you know who wins? Here is who wins the prime minister dance off, let's play it.
WATTERS: Is that a chick flick?
MACCALLUM: I can watch it all night.
WATTERS: What is this?
MACCALLUM: You've never seen "Love Actually?"
WATTERS: No. I've never seen --
MACCALLUM: One of the greatest movie of all times.
WATTERS: Who is this?
MACCALLUM: That's Hugh Grant, of course.
WATTERS: Oh, that's Huge Grant, right. I'm sorry.
MACCALLUM: Playing the prime minister and watch it at the end --
WATTERS: Oh, that's actually some really --
MACCALLUM: He kind of does like a Jesse thing. It's his world for sure.
WATTERS: He kind of -- yes. He -- I stole that from Hugh Grant.
MACCALLUM: And then you have to - the way he's standing there and he's like oh -- like I was saying, he got caught dancing.
WATTERS: Theresa needs to learn some moves from him.
MACCALLUM: Thanks, Jesse.
WATTERS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Yes. So, that's our "Story" for this Wednesday night. Let us know what you think, tweet me at #thestory. We will be back here tomorrow night at 7 o'clock. Tucker Carlson is coming up next from D.C. Stick around. Have a good night everybody. Thanks for sharing your "Story." We'll be right back.
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