Adams: Congress must give businesses incentive to stay shut in lockdowns

This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum" December 7, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: One day closer indeed. Good to have you
back, Bret. So, good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York.
And this is THE STORY.

So, you remember during the election, Democrats accusingly pointed to the
other side. They blamed them for ignoring the scientists. They said if Joe
Biden were elected, he would listen to the scientists. Yet the president-
elect is appearing to break with that theme. He named Xavier Becerra to
lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Becerra has no medical
background. He is a highly partisan Democrat politician and lawyer chosen
despite the fact that Biden was urged by medical groups across the nation
to choose someone with a medical resume.

And still, the arguments to follow the science continue day-after-day as a
justification for shutting down schools and churches and now even outdoor
dining. As if labeling it, science should convince us that we should stop
asking questions about what makes the most scientific sense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): And we have been religious about following the
data and the science.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: It has served us well in terms of
the focus on data and science leading us to decisions.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): This is how COVID-19 spreads. The science of
the virus, and that's why we've got to limit indoor gatherings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: But if it is truly the science, why have so many of the rule
makers been exposed as rulebreakers? Listen closely to Admiral Giroir of
the COVID Task Force when he was asked about this morning about these
recent bans, which include indoor - outdoor, I should say, outdoor, in the
tents with the open sides, dining. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADMIRAL BRETT GIROIR, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 TESTING CZAR: The science does
not say that in all of us on the task force. Dr. Fauci. Birx, Redfield,
Hahn, we all - Dr. Adams, the surgeon general, is that we do, if you're in
a surge place, need to limit indoor dining and indoor bars, you don't have
to close schools. You don't have to close universities. You don't have to
close your major industries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: You heard what he said. So, Americans have been incredibly
patient throughout the nearly 10 long months of this pandemic. But that
patience is wearing thin as much of the latest set of lockdowns is
beginning to appear arbitrary with regard to the science.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MARSDEN, CA BUSINESS OWNER: I have had enough. They have not given
us money and they have shut us down. We cannot survive. My staff cannot
survive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here because of Cuomo and de Blasio trying to
crush the little man who dare to speak up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not going to back down to tyranny. It's not -
that's not what I'm going to do. And I'm not going to teach my daughters
that that's OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our government leaders have abandoned me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you the owner?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: $4 trillion of stimulus money and gave it to who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you want to tell other restaurant owners who--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wake up, stand up. This is America. Be free.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: All right. We begin tonight with Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky,
a longtime critic of many of these lockdown measures. Senator, great to
have you here this evening.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: You hear the desperation in these people's voices. What would
you say to them tonight?

PAUL: Without question, this virus has been devastating to so many
families. Kelly and I lost a good friend today, and we're grieving from
them and our prayers go out to their family. But the thing is, is we ought
to at least still use logic to try to figure out how we stop this. I think
ultimately the vaccine will be very successful, but I don't see any
evidence that crowd control, hand washing, standing six feet apart. All
these things they tell you to do, closing down the restaurants, closing
down the schools, there's no real evidence that they're changing the
trajectory of the disease.

If you look at the incidence of COVID, it's going up like this, it's going
up exponentially despite all the mandates. So, those who say there is
science just aren't paying attention to it.

Look, this isn't a lack of compassion. I want people to get the vaccine. I
want them to be able to avoid this scourge. But at the same time, keeping
all our kids' home isn't changing the course of this disease. They've
studied this in four different country-wide studies. They've studied the
incidence of the disease. They've studied the transference of the disease,
and they've found that closing schools doesn't work.

Even the socialist de Blasio is now opening schools. So, now we have our
governor in our state closing schools right about the time that everybody
else is finally accepting that closing schools isn't working.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I want to ask you a little bit more about that in a moment.
But I do want to ask you about the stimulus, because that is obviously such
a painful part of this as well. Just the financial burden. As you heard
from Angela Marsden and the others in that video, there's $455 billion of
the already allocated stimulus that has gone unspent. I know you have
concerns about that and also about some of where this money has gone.

PAUL: I think the most important thing is if you want to get people back to
work, you can't pay them more not to work than they get for working. Right
now, there's about three and a half million jobs that would be filled
immediately if you weren't paying people more not to work. So, it's sort of
this big heart, small brain syndrome.

People say, I want to give people money, they're out of work. But if you
give them more than they normally made by working, they'll continue, they
institutionalize unemployment. So, it's a big mistake to continue
unemployment above the normal level.

What I would have done all along throughout this is I would have extended
unemployment, but I wouldn't have given additional money to those
unemployed because it serves as a disincentive to people getting back to
work. So, more stimulus is just more borrowed money and not good for the
country.

Right now, you look at the GDP for the last quarter, going up at 11
percent. You look at unemployment at six percent. I saw a statistic today
that said we had growth numbers in the job numbers, this last set of job
numbers, private job numbers that were better than 95 out of 96 months of
President Obama's term.

So, we really should be looking at this in a rational way and not saying,
oh, let's just print more money and borrow more money. We're getting out of
this. And as soon as we get the vaccine, we're going to get out of this in
a rapid fashion. And all I would say to government officials is, let's get
the vaccine out as soon as we can.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, let's hope because as you say, you lost someone.
There are people all across this country who have lost people that they
love. It's a serious disease. I keep going back in my mind to what you said
in the beginning. You see that line that's going straight up, and you see
across the country, everywhere I go, people wear masks more now than they
ever did in the earlier stages of this. And it just raises the big curious
question about how much we still don't know about this awful virus, doctor,
and Senator.

PAUL: And I think one of the things that the Supreme Court got right when
they made the ruling right before Thanksgiving. They said even during a
pandemic, the Constitution isn't to be put away and forgotten. The First
Amendment and the thing is, is it's not that I'm telling everyone to go to
church. I think there are some people in our society where there are
dangers to go and sit in church for two hours.

If you're in your mid-80s and you're listening to this, I'm not
recommending it. But I'm also telling you that the government shouldn't
tell you, you can't go to church and the government shouldn't tell you, you
can't send your kids to a religious school. Doesn't mean it's always
advisable. With schooling. I think it is.

Opening the schools is advisable. And the government, Governor Beshear, in
my state interfering with this is an interference of the First Amendment. I
think the Supreme Court is going to strike him down very quickly or they're
going to send it back and say, hey, look, we already ruled on this just at
Thanksgiving that you can't infringe the First Amendment.

But there's good advice and you can take advice and you can give advice.
But once you mandate it, it doesn't become advice. It becomes a form of
tyranny. So, I think the government should not be in the form of mandating
these things because sometimes the science isn't clear and sometimes, they
change their mind on the science month-to-month and week-to-week.

MACCALLUM: Xavier Becerra, his selection as the head of Health and Human
Services. What do you think about that, Senator?

PAUL: I'm concerned about the reports that say that he's been a champion
for late term abortion and at the time of birth abortion, and that's
outside the norm. Even pro-choice people a lot of times will say they
believe in some restrictions, but to believe in sort of complete unlimited
abortion until the time of birth or after, I think is something that's a
very radical position. And I would hate to have him in-charge of trying to
dispense government moneys towards that kind of policy.

So, we'll look long and hard and I'll try to keep an open mind. But my
first impression of what I'm hearing about him is that he may be way
outside the mainstream of what anybody in Kentucky would think is right.

MACCALLUM: Just back for a moment to the loss of learning in schools. Very
interesting piece today in The Washington Post. A Lost Generation is the
title. Surge of research reveals that students are sliding backward. The
most vulnerable are the worst affected. I think we're going to be feeling
the pains of this in our society for a very, very long time. All of these
kids at home in front of computers, if they're lucky enough to have one,
it's devastating.

PAUL: This education gap and there's always been an education gap out there
based on poverty and lack of education among the parents. But now it's
compounded because the kids had a chance, they had an escape. They got to
go to a school and some of them discover the wonders of learning. And some
of them went on to be a Ph.D. and scientists, they're not going to get that
if they're at home and they're in a dysfunctional place where their parents
are not capable of teaching them.

So, really, this should be a strong message to teachers that we appreciate
you and we think you do a good job. But instead, so many of the teacher's
unions have react and said, hey, no, not me. But the evidence is teachers
are not dying from this. Kids are not trained--

MACCALLUM: My goodness.

PAUL: And it isn't an increased danger.

MACCALLUM: It's good news and it should be embraced as such. We're - in a
second. I'm going to talk to the surgeon general about the vaccines and
other issues, but before I'll let you go, I want to ask you your thoughts.
There was a debate last night between Senator Loeffler and Raphael Warnock,
the reverend in Georgia. Your thoughts on this very important race coming
up.

PAUL: I watched the entire debate, and I came away thinking, my goodness,
that Raphael Warnock must be a radical liberal. But that point aside, I
think there was a distinction and he really can't escape all of his past
statements about either defunding the police or that you can't serve God in
the military. And I think these are statements that do put him out of the
mainstream. And I think I met my wife in Georgia. I worked as an E.R.
doctor in Georgia.

I know what Georgians are like. And I just don't know if they're going to
want somebody so far out the mainstream, somebody who actually has used the
Bible to justify abortion. I don't know what part of Bible that he's
reading, but a lot of that is really outside the mainstream of people who
live in Georgia.

MACCALLUM: Senator Paul, thank you. Always good to see you. Joining me, as
promised, Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General. Dr. Adams, very good
to have you here. Thanks for being here. We played some sound earlier from
a California restauranteur who's getting a ton of attention because I think
she has tapped into how so many people across the country are feeling who
are watching their businesses close. They're watching the people who work
for them get into desperate situations. Here is a bit of the interview that
she did earlier with Neil Cavuto. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARSDEN: You guys knew in March, so open up the empty hospitals, bring the
ship, get space for the ICU beds, but you can't crush people, the average
person. I had a homeless man jump through my window (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man.

MARSDEN: I know a bartender whose son was just robbed in their front yard
by gunpoint. People are desperate and it is very, very, very serious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, Dr. Adams, how do you address that part of the nation's
health crisis that's also going on right now?

DR. JEROME ADAMS, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Well, it's an incredibly important
aspect of this crisis that I've brought up even before COVID. We call it
the social determinants of health. If people can't support themselves,
they're not going to be healthy, regardless of what else is going on around
them. And we really need to make sure when we ask people to stay at home,
when we ask people to close down places for the sake of the virus, that we
are doing it for a short amount of time as possible. We're doing it based
on the science and that we are providing them the supports that they need
so that they can comply.

And that's what you're seeing fail right now. And I feel for her and I want
her to know that number one, we are providing extra support for overwhelmed
hospitals. We've got 20,000 people deployed. We're helping stand up
alternate care facilities, but we're still facing an incredible surge. And
we need people to hang on a little bit longer. But we also need states and
Congress to really support these restauranteurs, these other people out
there so they can do the right thing.

MACCALLUM: Should the task force be giving more guidance to the country on
who needs to shelter in place and who doesn't and businesses that can stay
open. This debate over people who are eating outside now that is being shut
down. These restaurant owners and these businesses across the country have
spent so much of their own money building these tents and outdoor
platforms. I mean, it's at a breaking point for so many of them. So many of
these businesses may never recover. Should the federal government taking a
bigger role in how these states should be doling out these restrictions?

ADAMS: You ask a wonderful question, and it's one that we tackled at the
task force today. I just left our task force meeting, and we talked a lot
about putting out better guidance, improved guidance based on what we now
know about the virus and you and Senator Paul talked about it. We know that
it is safe to keep schools open in general when you take precautions. We
know that outside is better than inside and that if you close down people's
ability to congregate in an outdoor area, they're just going to run inside,
and the virus will spread.

So, I think we need to be more intelligent, more strategic about some of
these closures. And we're going to try to give states and health
departments better advice. But to the people out there, I would say you
still have to comply. You've still got to use common sense. If you have 20
people outside of your household gathering together outside, that's still
going to be higher risk than if you're with people just within your
household. So, it's got to be a give and take. But we're near the finish
line. Vaccines are coming in the next week--

MACCALLUM: That's what we keep hearing.

ADAMS: I think.

MACCALLUM: All right. With regard to that, there was a really interesting
CDC study that showed that based on blood tests, that people who gave blood
in back in December, that something like 53 million Americans, if you
extrapolate the number from the ones who were positive from those blood
tests in December likely already had the virus.

Now we're at, I think, 7 million something in that neighborhood in terms of
cases. So, if 53 million people already had the virus, how do you identify
them and then work on the ones who haven't had it to get the vaccine to
them first? Wouldn't that make sense?

ADAMS: Well, great question. And again, it's another one. It's like you
were at the task force meeting, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Oh, good.

ADAMS: We talked about this. Right now, we don't know. Well, right now we
don't know how long people's antibodies are going to last. And we know that
in the studies they vaccinated people who did have antibodies. And so, it
is not going to harm you based on what we know about the vaccines. If
you've had the virus and you get vaccinated again.

We're going to still encourage people at this point to get vaccinated if
you've had the virus, starting with the most vulnerable people in long-term
care facilities and nursing homes. But I want to hit on a point you just
brought up, at least 10 million people, probably more in this country
who've been exposed to the virus. And there's something that you can do.

Convalescent plasma is a treatment out there that has potential to really
help individuals recover if they've gotten COVID, particularly in this
surge. So, I want to go to the fight is in us dot org if you've recovered from
COVID, because you could save a life right now, we want to get through--

MACCALLUM: That's such an important point. Yes.

ADAMS: To this virus - to this vaccine.

MACCALLUM: Losing 2000 people a day in some of the recent days that we've
gone through. It's just extraordinary and awful. Dr. Adams, thank you.
Great to have you here tonight.

ADAMS: Hey, did you get your flu shot, Martha? Because we need everyone to
do it.

MACCALLUM: I did.

ADAMS: It's Natural Immunization Week.

MACCALLUM: Yes., and I made sure my whole family got it too. So, yes.

ADAMS: One thing we can all do.

MACCALLUM: Yes, absolutely. Everybody should get their flu shot. Dr. Adams,
thank you. Good to see you tonight.

ADAMS: Thank you. Hang in there. We'll get there together.

MACCALLUM: All right. We will. Thank you, sir. So, coming up next, how
Stacey Abrams and other Democratic groups successfully lowered the bar in
Georgia on what constitutes legal ballot. This is the heart of the issue
that you should learn more about. Karl Rove on whether the GOP has enough
firepower to prevent a repeat of what happened in November. Coming up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, 45TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You must go
vote and vote early starting December 14th. You have to do it. They cheated
and they rigged our presidential election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: This election was rigged, and we can't let it happen to two of the
greatest, most respected people in Washington. We can't let it happen
again. And for whatever reason, your secretary of state and your governor
are afraid of Stacey Abrams. They're afraid of her. So, we know the
Democrats are planning to cheat and we can't let them do it again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So that was Saturday night, President Trump in Valdosta,
Georgia, he is in his campaigner in chief mode. When he was there, he was
obviously campaigning for Senators Loeffler and Perdue. Stacey Abrams and
other Democrat groups successfully lowered the bar in Georgia on what
constitutes an allowable legal ballot. Many that were allowed through in
the presidential election would likely have been rejected in prior
elections for things like a lack of signature or a weak signature match.
But a lawsuit from Democrats prompted a big change, and it was made right
before the presidential election.

As the Atlanta Journal Constitution noted back in March, voters must be
quickly notified when election officials reject their absentee ballots,
allowing them time to correct problems and have their ballots counted,
which is known as curing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: I believe that the election process is
a mess. I really wish the governor to call a special session to clean it up
and the Republicans simply have to turn out more votes than Stacey Abrams
can steal.

In 2018, 3.5 percent of the absentee ballots were thrown out. This year was
0.3 of 1 percent. The agreement, the secretary of state made with Stacey
Abrams, was crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Joining me now, Karl Rove, former Deputy Chief of Staff to
President George W. Bush. Byron York, Chief Political Correspondent for The
Washington Examiner, and Richard Fowler, Senior Fellow at the New Leaders
Council. All are Fox News Contributors. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for
being here.

I think that, a lot of people who have watched this closely over the last
few weeks are getting around to the realization that so much of what was
different this time obviously stemmed from the mail-in-voting, which was
completely unprecedented. We never dealt with anything like this in our
country and also a lot of rules that were changed in the weeks and months
leading up to the election in terms of what made a ballot allowable and
what made a ballot disallowed.

And most of us, we got our mail-in-ballot really carefully, we've got to
sign on one side, you've got to sign the other. You have to make sure that
you check all of the boxes on the back in order for it to count. Karl, when
you listen to those strong words from Newt Gingrich, is he right? Do you
agree?

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first of all, I'm involved in this
raising money for the Georgia Battleground.

MACCALLUM: Yes, you are. Thank you.

ROVE: Fund to help candidates. But yes, there are lots of things that need
to be clarified. State law requires that the signature on your ballot
matched the signature on your registration card and the consent decree gave
the ability to match it to any signature that you might have on file.
That's in violation of the state law. There's a requirement that these
boxes at which you can. 800 of them, I believe the number is, where you can
drop off your ballot.

Well, there's video on those boxes, but in order for that video to matter,
the campaigns have to have ready and available access to it in real-time,
it needs to be live streamed or made available to them so that they can
monitor those boxes.

And if those boxes, if something - some shenanigan goes on, there's no
ballot harvesting allowed in Georgia. So, if somebody shows up and shoves a
bunch of ballots in there, there has to be a way to take those ballots,
segment them and put them aside, make the extra checks and go after whoever
harvested those ballots and dropped them in there.

And if the camera goes down, put those ballots that are accepted in that
box during the period that the cameras down, need to be segregated. And
again, they need to be carefully looked at to make certain that they're
legal. But, yes, there are lots of things that have to be resolved and
guidance has to be uniform. Lots of counties in Georgia do match the
signature on the ballot to the signature on the registration card. But
other counties had decided that they were going to do something else. So
there needs to be a uniform standard. Otherwise, we're violating the 14th
Amendment.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And Richard, that's the law that there's no ballot
harvesting in Georgia. So, it does seem very important that if one person
is putting in more than one ballot in a box, that would be something that
would need to be double checked. Right. So, the laws have been loosened to
the point where there's a lot of questions. And I think it ends up hurting
both sides of the equation down the road at some point, doesn't it behoove
us to make sure that these things are fixed?

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Listen, I think we can do everything
in our power to make sure that every American has a chance to cast their
ballot, we have to also acknowledge that we're voting during a global
pandemic and during that pandemic, there's a lot of Americans who might not
be able to drop their ballot off. How about if you're an immunocompromised
89-year0old and you can't leave your home, you need to drop your ballot
off, and we've got to do everything in our power--

ROVE: Richard, you can mail in your ballot--

FOWLER: I did not interrupt you, Karl. I did not interrupt you.

MACCALLUM: And it's a valid point, Richard. I mean, so what - tell me
another person who wouldn't be able to mail the ballot. I mean, what
possible circumstance would you be in that you couldn't individually mail
your ballot from your house and put it in the post - in the mailbox?

FOWLER: You absolutely can mail your ballot. But once again, what Karl was
trying to point out and what the president has tried to do over the past
couple of months is sort of disparage the Georgia voting system. But after
three and four recounts, what we found here is that there is no voter
fraud, no voter fraud has been done. No voters took advantage of the
system. And the system worked exactly as it should work. And as a result,
Joe Biden won this election.

And while Republicans have a voter registration advantage in Georgia, the
reason why Joe Biden won this election, the reason why Raphael Warnock and
Jon Ossoff have a chance to win this election is because of the work of
black women in the state of Georgia, like Stacey Abrams, like Keisha Lance
Bottoms, who are working to register voters and working to energize African
Americans in the Atlanta suburbs to turn out and vote. And that's what's
going to happen on January 5th.

Once again, these women are going to mobilize voters and they're going to
oust the Republicans--

MACCALLUM: I mean everybody agrees that mobilizing voters is an absolutely
American thing to do. But the question is whether or not there is anything
happening that shouldn't be happening, because that's also a very American
question. Karl - quick thought from Karl, and then I want to get Byron in
here, because I know you've got something to say.

ROVE: Talking about voter registration. A New York Times columnist said
violate the law by moving to Georgia, registering to vote, vote for the two
Georgia Democrats and then go back home. Andrew Yang said, I'm going to go
to Georgia and register. Georgia law requires that any voter has to have a-
-

FOWLER: Those are opinions, Karl.

ROVE: He has to have the intention of being a permanent resident of the
state. And if you go there just to vote in the election, it's a violation,
a felony violation. So, we've got to have some protections on that.

FOWLER: Of course, but those who are just opinion authors making a point.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Let's make a 100 percent sure, Richard.

(CROSSTALK)

ROVE: Additional candidates saying, I'm going to violate the law by
committing a felony. We don't need to worry--

FOWLER: This is a Republican secretary of state, Republican governor--

MACCALLUM: Presidential candidate.

ROVE: Don't need to worry about those people.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Sorry, guys. I'm going to let - let me get Byron in here, Byron,
you're covering this Georgia election as well. There was a lot of
discussion about President Trump's appearance on Saturday night. Was he
just talking about his own election or was he really helping these two
candidates? What do you say?

BYRON YORK, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, we heard the story going in, which
was the president would go down there, he would rant about the presidential
election, he would undermine the candidacies of David Perdue and Kelly
Loeffler. And actually, he didn't so much. He did, of course, talk about
the presidential election because that's what he does. But he spent an
enormous amount of time talking about the election and urging Georgians to
get out and vote. He said it over and over and over again.

There was a huge sign in back of him that said, request your absentee
ballot right now. He talked about urged people to get mail-in-ballots and
to mail them in immediately. And also, there are a couple of lawyers,
Sidney Powell, and Lin Wood, who have filed lawsuits on behalf of Trump,
but have also urged Georgia voters not to vote in the runoff because they
say it won't be secure. And President Trump very specifically said, no, no,
no, do not do that. You have to vote. So, I think that he really did
produce for Loeffler and Perdue in this visit.

MACCALLUM (on camera):  And he was so emphatic about that he is actually
going to go back and do it again, as being reported tonight that he will
head back to Georgia to continue to try to make that point.

So, Karl, there's a news story that GOP lawmakers in Georgia are proposing
rule changes before January 5th, that would require a photo I.D. for
ballots cast by mail. And Democrats are pushing back against that. I'm not
even sure how that would work exactly, but is that going to be a reality?

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, I think that's going to be
difficult to do, because, you know, one of the things we learned in Bush v.
Gore, was that you have to have -- operate under the rules in effect when
people vote and we are already voting in Georgia. People are, you know,
voting by mail. Next Monday they'll start voting in person and so I think
that's going to be difficult to do to change the rules.

I do think though that new uniform guidance from the state board of
elections on what is acceptable behavior by each of the 159 counties is a
way to get some of these things resolved and my understanding is the
Republican effort is aimed at doing exactly that, because different
counties interpret things and do things in a different way. And that really
is raising a 14th amendment issue of equitable treatment of people in
different counties, so state board of elections resolving whatever issues
which there is already statutory authority for them to act is probably a
better way to go.

MACCALLUM:  Richard, let me ask you the last question because I'm about to
go to Ken Starr here. Raphael Warnock -- raphael Warnock, excuse me,
basically said that he would be -- he wouldn't really give his answer on
whether or not he would vote for court packing if he's a senator. Do you
think that's a problematic moment for him?

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  No, not at all because I think the
voters in Georgia are more concerned of their top issue as COVID-19, so
he's going to continue to focus on that and I don't think court packing is
going to come up anytime in the near future because we really don't know
the balance of the Senate quite yet. So, I think his answer was fair and it
was the right answer.

MACCALLUM:  All right. We got to leave it there. Thank you very much, Byron
York and Richard Fowler and Karl Rove. Good to see all of you tonight.
Thank you.

ROVE:  Thank you.

MACCALLUM:  So, joining me now is judge Ken Starr, former independent
counsel under President Clinton and former solicitor general. Ken, good to
have you here this evening.

KEN STARR, WHITEWATER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL:  Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM:  You know, these issues of the changing rules, and we are going
to talk about Pennsylvania in the next segment but I want to stay with
Georgia here. Because there were a lot of rules that were pushed through as
a consent decree and you hear what Karl just said. Now you've got this
thing that -- you know, some of us looked ahead and said maybe it comes
down to a runoff in Georgia, but not enough time now. People are already
voting there.

So, do you -- are you concerned that the changes that took place in Georgia
are not going to be recoverable before January 5th? It doesn't look like
they are.

STARR:  Yes, it's a real danger. And we certainly have learned a lesson,
haven't we? These actions on the part of state officials, the secretary of
state or whomever, we can go from state to state, making these changes,
agreeing to changes and the like were violating the Constitution of the
United States. They were usurping power. That's a strong way of putting it,
but it's absolutely true.

So, whether they were intoxicated with power or whether it was simply
ignorant of the limitations imposed by the Constitution of the United
States, all these changes were made.

I'm so glad you pointed to the flood tide of mail-in ballots. Forty-one
percent of the American people voted mail-in. And yet what we are seeing in
state after state is the rejection rate and everyone should have the right
to vote, but they have to vote lawfully. The rejection rate absolutely
collapsed to a minuscule level and so that is extremely problematic in
terms of the confidence of the American people should have in the results
in state after state.

MACCALLUM:  So, when people say -- you know, when you listen to the
election officials that say, you know, everything adds up. You know, you
heard Richard Fowler, they went back and they looked and they matched all
the signatures and everything matched up, so in the recount, in his mind,
proved that there was no problem, but it appears that what happens happened
before that, before we even got to that point. What's your interpretation
of that?

STARR:  Yes. My interpretation is too little, too late and again, I think
this rejection rate falling basically to zero tells you that something went
awry. Whether it was fraud, whether it was error, whatever, it just
suggests strongly that if history is a guide, and history is a pretty good
guide, some balance went through and many ballots went through that were
disqualified for one reason or another.

It's not too much to ask to say this is a matter of state law, obey that
law and then your vote will be counted. If you don't obey state law, then
your vote should not be counted.

MACCALLUM:  I want to play the sound bite from last night from Raphael
Warnock. Let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA), U.S. SENATORIAL CANDIDATE:  People aren't asking me
about the courts and whether we should expand the courts. I know that's an
interesting question for people inside the beltway to discuss, but they are
wondering when in the world are they going to get some COVID-19 relief.

I'm really not focused on it. And I think that too often the politics in
Washington has been about the politicians. I'm a pastor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM (on camera):  Ken, we heard, you know, back and forth during the
presidential debate between President Trump and Joe Biden. Joe Biden would
also not answer that question. And it's a really important question to
voters.

STARR:  It's huge. This is a dereliction of duty, with all due respect to
the good reverend. He is a candidate. He needs to answer these serious
questions that have been put into the public debate. To try to mess with
the court structure after over 100 years of stability, the functionality of
the Supreme Court I think is simply wrong on his part. He's hiding behind
COVID-19 to just avoid a very important and basic question to the structure
of our Constitution.

MACCALLUM:  Ken Starr, thank you very much. A lot of questions about all of
this still. And Georgia is not the only state that pushed through these
last-minute rule changes before the presidential election. Listen to Mark
Levin on how he explains what happened to these rules in Pennsylvania.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK LEVIN, FOX NEWS HOST:  Few months before the election, they said yes,
no signatures required. You don't need signature comparison. You don't need
a postal date and if the postal date is smudged, you're going to count it
anyway.

And yes, even though election day ends on Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern Time,
we're going to extend it to 5 p.m. Eastern Time on Friday. They had no
legal or constitutional basis for doing any of that. So, they violated
article two, section one, clause two of the United States Constitution,
which leaves the power to the state legislature to make the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM (voice over):  So, it's up to the state legislature to make
decisions on voting, not the state Supreme Court in Pennsylvania, so how
did they get away with making all of those decisions and why isn't the
Supreme Court going to pick this up? Congressman Jim Jordan next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM (voice over):  Changes, rules, court cases that all happened in
the weeks before the election, also a big focus in the swing state of
Pennsylvania. At the center of an election case before the United States
Supreme Court, Republican officials believe that there were more than 2.5
million mail-in ballots that they say did not meet the standard of a
completed ballot.

Now Justice Alito has weighed in on this. He has set a deadline of tomorrow
for Pennsylvania election officials to respond to the request.

Here's Life, Liberty and Levin host Mark Levin laying out exactly what
happened in Pennsylvania. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEVIN:  Fourteen months ago, in the state of Pennsylvania, if you had voted
by mail-in ballot, it would have been discarded. If that mail-in ballot had
been counted, that would have been fraud. Fourteen months ago, in the state
of Pennsylvania, if you sent in a ballot without a signature, that ballot
would be discarded. If it was counted, that would be criminal fraud.

Fourteen months ago, in the state of Pennsylvania, if you sent in a ballot
with a signature that didn't match your signature that they had on file,
that would be discarded. If it was counted, that would be criminal fraud.

Fourteen months ago, in the state of Pennsylvania if you sent in a ballot
beyond election day, it wouldn't be counted and if it was, that would be
fraud. If you sent in a ballot without a postal stamp date on it, it would
wouldn't be counted and if it was, that would be fraud. Or if you sent in a
ballot where they couldn't tell what the date was because maybe there was a
smudge on the ink, it wouldn't be counted. If it was counted, that was
fraud.

All of those ballots today count. They were all counted in Pennsylvania.
Because of unconstitutional and illegal changes that were made by officials
and made, quote, unquote, "officially" by individuals in Pennsylvania.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM (on camera):  All right. So, joining me now, Ohio Republican
Congressman Jim Jordan. Congressman, good to have you here today.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH):  Good to be with you, Martha.

MACCALLUM:  I mean, it is so mind-boggling when you look back.

JORDAN:  Yes.

MACCALLUM:  It used to be that the bar was so high to be approved for an
absentee ballot, you had to apply in advance, you had to give your reason
for why you weren't going to be able to walk into a voting booth that day -
-

JORDAN:  Yes.

MACCALLUM:  -- and then you would be given permission to receive an
absentee ballot. Now we all get that COVID-19 changed a lot of things in
the country this year, but to lower the barrier in the ways that Mark Levin
describes I just think makes it also crystal clear.

JORDAN:  Yes, and it's even worse because in some counties, voters were
allowed to cure their ballots, fix their ballots in other counties they
weren't. In some counties they allowed pre-canvassing in other counties
they didn't. In some counties they set up temporary satellite offices where
people could vote and other, they didn't.

And you can imagine which counties did this, it's the Democrat-run
counties. So, you add everything Mark had and you add that onto it. Not to
mention the fact when you send out all these ballots, we had a staffer --
I've said this many times, we had a staffer who works for our office and
for a judiciary committee who at her apartment, she got her ballot, four
other ballots were mailed to her apartment that were people who didn't live
there.

MACCALLUM:  Yes.

JORDAN:  That is a recipe for disaster and all we are asking now is why
want some of these -- why won't Governor Kemp in Georgia, for example, let
us recheck the signatures and actually find out the rejection rate that Mr.
Starr was talking about early. It was next to nothing this election when
you've got 41 percent of the electorate sending a mail-in ballot in. That
defies any type of common sense, so why don't these guys let us check it
out?

If they are so confident their elections were fine, why don't they let us
check it out? But they refused to do so and that's what's troubling so many
Americans.

MACCALLUM:  Yes, I think that's exactly right, and the thing that really
strikes me in Pennsylvania -- and this isn't, you know, just for the
presidential election, this is because a precedent has been set for this
now going forward. So that's why it's so important --

JORDAN:  Yes.

MACCALLUM:  -- to all Americans no matter what your party is that you have
to feel confident. You know, I have a neighbor who got six ballots for his
neighbors all put in his mailbox. So, I mean, this kind of happens all over
the place. It's not to say that there should be a different outcome, we
don't, you know, we don't know that. But the fact to the matter is it was
so dramatically different.

But here, let me ask you this question. So, you have the legislature in
Pennsylvania that has the Constitution -- the state constitutional
jurisdiction over voting rules in the state --

JORDAN:  Yes.

MACCALLUM:  -- but the Supreme Court, the state Supreme Court in
Pennsylvania overruled what they decided. Now that sounds to me -- I'm not
an attorney but that sounds to me like a classic set up for something that
the Supreme Court of the United States --

JORDAN:  Of course.

MACCALLUM:  -- would want to get involved in. So why aren't they?

JORDAN:  Well maybe they will. We certainly hope they do and I think you're
exactly right on the analysis. The U.S. Constitution is clear, this is an
article two section one concern for the state legislature. That's where we
have to focus. They have the ability to set the time, place, and manner of
elections and they have the ability to determine the electors, ultimately
decide on the electors.

So, it is a state legislative issue. You're exactly right. And the reason
we got to get to the bottom of all this is if you think about the fact, 74,
75 million voters for President Trump, surveys showed that over 70 percent
of that number, 50 some million people think the election was rigged.

When you have over a third of the electorate think there are major problems
with your election process with the integrity of your election, that is not
healthy.

MACCALLUM:  Yes.

JORDAN:  That is not good for a country. If for only that reason we had
better get to the bottom of it. And these state officials who are making it
difficult for us to get answers, they are not helping that situation for
our entire nation. That's what concerns me. That's why I'm for every debate
we can have, everything we can do to get to the truth so the American
people can be confident in the real outcome.

 
MACCALLUM:  Going forward. Absolutely. Changing gears for one second before
I let you go, I only have a minute, but, you know, there was a story last
night about the Attorney General Bill Barr, that he might consider leaving
before the end of the year or before the term ends. Now today they are
saying that he would serve in his post as long as the president needs him.
Just a quick reaction to that, Congressman Jordan.

JORDAN:  That's between, I mean, that's between the president and the
attorney general. I will tell you I'm glad the attorney general announced
last week that Mr. Durham has now been given a designation of special
counsel. I think it's important. Frankly though, I wish he would've told us
that before the election. I wish he would've told us that in October when
he did it.

MACCALLUM:  Thank you. Congressman Jordan, good to see you tonight. Thanks
for being here.

JORDAN:  You bet. Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM:  Breaking news just in on the president's a vaccine summit which
was scheduled for tomorrow, the CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna now saying they
plan to not attend. We are going to tell you why when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM:  Breaking tonight on the race to approve a COVID-19 vaccine, the
CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna both say they will skip President Trump's
vaccine summit which is scheduled for tomorrow in the White House. That is
when the president expected to sign a executive order granting U.S.
citizens priority access to both companies COVID-19 vaccines before doses
can be shift off to other nations.

Both CEOs citing, quote, "regulatory requirements for their refusal to
attend" claiming that they can be in the same room as the FDA doctor who is
currently reviewing their applications for emergency use authorization.

Today of course is December 7th, and on December 7th 1941, more than 2,400
Americans lost their lives when the Japanese launched a surprise attack on
Pearl Harbor. Launching America into World War II. Nearly half of those who
were killed that day were on board the USS Arizona.

My next guest is one of the last two surviving crewmembers from that ship.
Lou Conter went on to have an incredible career in the navy after the
attack. He learned to fly and complete missions all over the South Pacific
during World War II.

He serve -- he continued to serve in the Korean War, and in 1975, he
returned to Pearl Harbor to write training materials for the troops headed
to Vietnam. Until he eventually retired in 1967. Lou Conter was set to be
in attendance for events commemorating Pearl Harbor today was held back due
to the COVID-19 concerns and he joins me now.

LOU CONTER, PEARL HARBOR SURVIVOR:  Thank you very much.

MACCALLUM:  What do you remember, Lou, about Pearl Harbor and about the
attack, and what happened to you when those bombs hit?

CONTER:  Well, it's a day that nobody will ever forget. In my memory or
anyone who was there. But we were highly trained for the last two years
before Pearl Harbor and as Commander Fuqua, our first lieutenant
(Inaudible) through the raid said that everyone on the ship served with
distinction because they were highly trained. And I believe that that's one
of the greatest acts that American sailors and officers of the navy, the
army, the air force, it was the army air corps at the time can do. December
7th was a date that will live in infamy. Thank you.

MACCALLUM:  Lou, where were you on the ship and what do you remember about
that moment when the attack began?

CONTER:  Well, I was the quartermaster third class and I had to watch on
the quarter deck (Inaudible) and when the first planes came across, we sign
general quarters and the captain, Van Valkenburg, our skipper, went to the
bridge. And Admiral Kidd, Commander (Inaudible) supervision number one who
was captain of the ship when I first went aboard there in Arizona.

And Kurt Haynes, the quartermaster with me went to the bridge. And Captain
Van Valkenburg told me to secure the quarter deck and come to the bridge
because my job is to steer the ship in and out of port. We had the vessel
tied up alongside of us so we sent the men forward to cut the lines to the
vessel. And that's when the boats made from the vessel through a line
across to the tower after it blew up. We blew up about five minutes after
eight, which is seven or eight minutes into the attack.

We took a armor piercing bomb alongside a number two turret and went
through five decks and into the lower hand in the (Inaudible) lower hand
and the four lower hand and (Inaudible) ammunition for turrets one and two
were and a million pounds of powder blew up. The bow of the ship came out
of the water about 30 or 40 feet and settled straight back into the bay
where it still sitting today.

And Commander Fuqua got knocked down where he came through and he came up
on the quarterdeck and took charge of the ship. He had us surviving members
pulling men out of the fire and laying down on deck because they were
burned pretty badly. And we had 50 or 60 (Inaudible) sent to the hospital.

We were about in shape, but about 8.35 in the morning and we got them into
the hospital and came back and helped fight the fire. The fire was burning
until Tuesday. So as Commander Fuqua said, everyone on the ship did exactly
what they were trained, highly trained to do. And they served with
distinction.

So, I'm very happy that I have lived as long as I have. Eleven hundred and
seventy-seven of our shipmates perish that day, with 2,403 servicemen from
the whole service that day.

MACCALLUM:  That's an -- it's extraordinary.

CONTER:  So, Pearl Harbor must be remembered as a main holiday in America
so it will never happen again. Thank you.

MACCALLUM:  You are so right about that, sir. I've had the honor of going
to Pearl Harbor and of learning about the men on the ship and those who
were buried with the ship. And even stories of brothers who after they
passed, wanted to be returned to the ship, have the remains returned to the
ship after that.

You were not able to go this year. Explain to us what it has meant to you
in the past to return to the ship to remember those that were lost that
day.

CONTER:  We've been -- since the 50th anniversary in 1991 when President
Bush was there. My family and I have been there for practically every year
since, and this year we had a reservation. And I called November the first
and they said they're going to extend the reservation and when you got off
the plane you had to go into hibernation for two weeks.

MACCALLUM:  Yes.

CONTER:  Before you could get off -- out of the hotel. So, we can't sail
out November the first and will come next year, God willing I will be 100
in September 13th. We'll be there next year to the 80th anniversary. Today
is the 79th anniversary.

MACCALLUM:  Well, that be extraordinary and we hope that you will be there
on the 80th anniversary. I hope that some of us will get to out there and
join you for that. That would be an extraordinary experience.

Lou Conter, thank you so much for your service to this country, and you are
a living testament to the strength and the courage of the men on the USS
Arizona. Thank you so much, sir, for being here tonight.

CONTER:  Thank you very much for having me. God bless Kenn Potts and the
other men of the Arizona survivors today. There's two of us still living.
He will be 100 in April 15th. Thank you so much.

MACCALLUM:  God bless you both. Thank you, sir.

Remarkable to talk to Lou Conter. What an amazing man and he doesn't seem
like he is 99 years old to me. I don't know about you, but he seems, I
don't know maybe 75 if I had to guess. So, we're really grateful to him for
being here. If you want to learn more about that period in our history
which is so important, "Unknown Valor:  A Story of Family, Courage, and
Sacrifice Starts in Pearl Harbor Goes All the Way to Iwo Jima." I hope
you'll check it out.

Thanks for being here tonight. That's THE STORY of Monday, December the
seventh, 2020. But THE STORY continues tomorrow so we'll see you back here.
Tucker starts coming up right after this. Thanks for being here, everybody.
Good night.



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