'Your World' on Democrats' plan to pay for their massive spending bills

This is a rush transcript from "Your World," October 5, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we'll invest in our historically Black college and universities, which are an essential asset to help, to support, and to make sure that young people of every background and circumstance have a shot at good-paying jobs.

Look, this bill also invests in our work force by providing so much-needed breathing room for working families. After all, how can we compete in the world if millions of American parent parents, especially moms, can't join the week the work force because they can't afford the cost of child care or eldercare; they have to stay home.

For example, here in Michigan, the average two-parent family spends $10, 400 on child care costs for just one child each year. Thirty years ago, the United States ranked sixth among advanced economies in the share of women in the work force. You know where we are today? Twenty-three. Twenty-two countries have a higher percentage of their women in the work force making a competitive wage than the United States.

While our competitors are investing in the care economy, we're standing still. And the fact is, millions of American parents are feeling the squeeze, having a hard time doing their job, earning a paycheck while taking care of their children or aging parents and at the same time in the sandwich generation.

My Build Back Better plan is going to change that. It's going to cut the cost of child care for most Michigan families by more than half. It's going to extend the historic middle-class tax cut to the child care Tax Credit, which we passed in my American Rescue Plan.

Now, most people don't know if you walk to the average informed person doctor, lawyer, whatever and said, child care tax credit, they're not sure what that means. But what it means is if you were making a decent salary and you had two kids or three kids or four under the age of 18, you get to deduct $2,000 for each child off your bottom line of your taxes you owe. Well, guess what? If you're making 15 bucks an hour, you don't have any taxes to pay like that. So guess what you got? Nothing. Zero. Zero. No help.

My friends on the other team have no problem giving billionaires and millionaires gigantic tax breaks. This is a tax cut. You know, what it does is now and it's in place, and people in your state are understanding it now instead of it provides it upped the ante how much you could get for a child under seven: You get 3, 600 bucks tax cut on a yearly basis, and you get $3,000 for a child under 17.

But guess what we did? That means we're doing it on a monthly basis now. It means you're getting either $300 a month or $200 a month, just like your Social Security check at home.

It's cut child poverty in by 40 percent. That money is already a life- changer for so many working families. And as I said it's actually I was wrong: In Michigan, it's 44 percent cut in child poverty.

We need to keep it going. My plan is going to put Americans to work constructing and rehabilitating safe and affordable housing to help ease the cost of housing while generating even more jobs. In most of the major metropolitan areas of America, they're you can't afford the housing.

And it helps to meet the moment on climate change as well. We're setting the course for America to achieve 50 to 52 percent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 for us to reach -- reach net-zero emissions by 2050.

This bill helps us get there in a way that creates good jobs, makes us global leaders of fast-growing clean energy industries, like electric vehicles, solar and wind power, battery power.

The bottom line is this: When we give working families a break, we're not just raising their quality of life; we're putting parents in a position to earn a paycheck. We're also positioning our country to compete in the world. That's what these bills are all about.

If you want proof, just come to this training facility. This is where hardworking folks come to learn how to operate road graders and so much more; where workers use virtual reality to master operating a crane and to learn how to deal with drones to look underneath bridges and so on; where young people in Michigan show up and emerge as expert technicians, engineers, heavy equipment operators.

They leave here with a shot at something great: a union job with good wages and benefits that allow them to maintain their dignity and their pride. It's a ticket to the middle class.

This is where the economy starts: with you your skills, your dreams, and your limitless potential. The only thing we've been missing is the will from Washington to finally build an economy around you an economy that gives you and your family a fighting chance to get ahead, gives our country a fighting chance to compete with the rest of the world. We can't get here thinking small. We have to think big.

Let me be clear: We need to prepare for 10 years down the line. That's what these bills do. Both these bills spend out over 10 years, not in the first year.

So if you take the infrastructure bill, folks, it's described as a $1. 2 trillion bill. What that means is that of all those investments in roads, bridges, high-speed Internet, water, everything else, all of it would be less than one half of 1 percent of our economy each year. And it's all paid for, and they don't increase the debt because they're paid for by asking the very wealthy to begin their -- pay their fair share.

As a matter of fact, a significant portion of this plan cuts taxes for working people.

And best of all, the cost of these bills, in terms of adding to the deficit, is zero. Zero. Zero. And I made a commitment when I wrote these when I was running: No one making under $400,000 a year will see a penny in their taxes go up. That's why, in the infrastructure bill, there is no gas tax increase, because people making under 400 would have to pay more.

It's simple. If you're working here at this facility or your spouse is a teacher or a firefighter, there's no reason why combined why millionaires and billionaires in this country should be paying at a lower tax rate than you do. Hear me again now, a lower tax rate.

A police officer or teacher, a union crane operator, and a nurse they paid a higher tax rate a higher tax rate than a significant portion of the major corporations in America and the super wealthy.

Look, it isn't right isn't right that 55 of the largest corporations in America, in this country and I come from the corporate capital of the world. More people more corporations are incorporated in the state of Delaware than all every other state combined. But you know how much those 55 companies I can go on; more than that they made over $40 billion and they paid zero, zero in federal income tax.

Since the pandemic began, the number of billionaires and I forget the exact number there are in America have seen their wealth go up collectively by $1 trillion, $1 trillion.

It isn't fair. It needs to change. Look, working folks understand that.

That's why, despite the attacks the attacks and misinformation, my plan has overwhelming support of the polling data from the American people. They understand what's at stake.

They understand that workers and families have a better shot and Americans have a better shot.

I'm a capitalist. I think you should be able to go out and make a million dollars, or a billion. But just pay your fair share. Join the crowd, man.

They know that this is about dignity and respect. It's about changing the paradigm so the economy works for you, not just for those at the very top.

It's about building this economy from the bottom up and the middle out. That's what I've done my entire career. That's why I ran for president.

As I said, I'm a capitalist. I think you should be able to make a lot of money in America. But just pay your fair share. Pay your fair share.

I took this agenda to the country. They said it was time to build an economy that looks out from Scranton, Pennsylvania where I grew up as a kid instead of looking down from Wall Street. An economy that looks out from Howell, Michigan, and towns like it all over America, that brings people from every race, background, religion into the game.

That's what and notwithstanding some of the signs that I saw com--that's why 81 million Americans voted for me. The largest number of votes in American history.

(APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: A clear majority who supported when they supported me.

Look, it's now time to deliver.

Let me close with this: The world is watching. Not a joke. The autocrats of the world believe the world is moving so rapidly that democracies can't generate consensus quickly enough to bring their people together to get things done.

They think democracies not a joke in my meetings with Putin, in my meetings with Xi Jinping and other leaders, they truly believe that we can't compete in the 21st century because things are moving so fast democracies take so much time that they are so divided that they can't get together in time to act.

They believe they believe they'll win they'll win the day and they can dictate their way forward and leave us behind. They're betting not a joke they're betting, for the first time, we won't respond to this inflection point in history, that we'll fail to rise to the occasion.

But you've heard me say it a lot of times: It's never, ever been a good bet to get -- bet against the American people. Never.

Look, just look back a little ways. After World War Two, the United States did what we're trying to do now: invested in the American people to lead the world.

At the time, presidents and congresses of both parties and Americans of all political views stepped up. I'm not being sentimental here. There was racial discrimination; it was a fact of life. We know how deep-rooted racism is in this country. We saw the Klan marching right here in Howell generations ago and again in recent years. It's a never-ending battle.

But think about what also unfolded in this critical in these critical decades. Great protest movements summoned the nation to most prom--promise of equity.

The G.I. Bill sent millions of veterans to college. The federal government helped make home ownership possible because it's the vehicle by which people can generate wealth. Most of us who come from lower or middle-class backgrounds, that's how our parents were able to generate any wealth. The investments in our home for those who could previously only dream of having a house to call their own.

We invested in the Interstate Highway System, propelling our economy into the future.

We invested in the space race, which led to huge strides in technology.

We invested in something called DARPA, a program within the federal government that helped create the Internet.

Folks, we need to step up again. But the challenge of today is one of economic competition. Let's learn from that history, not because it was perfect, because Americans then did what they must do now: invest in ourselves to show the world that American democracy works and that, given half a chance, there's nothing not a single thing we can't achieve when we do it together. I know we can do this. I'm positive we can. I've never been more optimistic about this country than I am right now. We're going to restore faith, pride, and dignity in the future of this country.

And we're going to pass both of these bills and start building this economy to beat the competition and deliver for working families.

Thank you. May God bless you. And may God protect our troops. Let's get this done. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: All right, still monitoring the president of the United States here.

He packed a lot in there, promoting both the regular infrastructure bipartisan plan and the far pricier social spending plan. He calls it the Build Back Better plan. Others call it the human infrastructure plan. They're all expensive plans.

If you add them all up right now, they're north of about $5 trillion, some say more. The president says they're not -- going to add zero to the deficit. That would be the first time in American history a large spending initiative has been fully paid for, not added a penny to the deficit.

But he is basing it on tax hikes, he said, that will certainly cover the Build Back Better plan. But we have crunched the numbers here and found out that, if it's at the $3.5 trillion of spending and the $2 trillion in planned tax hikes, of course, that leaves a $1.5 trillion dollar gap.

Now, the president likes to argue that this spread out over 10 years begins to trigger economic growth that then pays all of that out. Again, it would be a first for any federal program to have done that.

The battle, meanwhile, back and forth on this is as to whether they can come up with a more presentable or certainly acceptable figure to moderates from the $3.5 trillion number we're hearing right now.

And the guy they have to convince is my next guest, Emanuel Cleaver, the Missouri Democratic congressman, the House Committee on Financial Services member.

Congressman, he says this is fully paid for, but we don't even know what's in it yet to judge whether it's paid or not. And, furthermore, if it's the $3.5 trillion figure -- I'm talking about the Build Back Better plan, not the bipartisan infrastructure plan -- he's wrong, isn't he?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D-MO): Well, there are a number of things we can do.

For example, we can reduce the number of years.

CAVUTO: Right.

CLEAVER: And I think that -- that has not -- as far as I know, hasn't been placed on the table.

But I think that it's going to be difficult for us to put an exact number on it until -- and this is what the president, I think, has been trying to get people to think about doing -- decide what we want in the bill.

There's no question. Let me just be clear. I don't know of anybody who believes that we're going to get a $3.5 trillion deal. I mean, nobody may want to say that publicly, as I just did. Maybe I shouldn't have done it, but that's a fact.

CAVUTO: Well, regardless of what the final shape of that will be, Congressman, you can help me out here, because I'm the resident nerd here at FOX. I follow numbers.

And I have tried in a variety of ways to say, all right, what would be not adding at all to our debt, not a penny to our deficit? It would be a first. So what makes him say that?

CLEAVER: Well, because he is convinced that the -- raising the tax on those who earn over $400,000 will take care of that debt.

CAVUTO: But it won't. But it won't, right? It won't.

I mean, even if you look at, let's say, the $3.5 trillion package. It's about half what they need to make that. Now, maybe to your point, they lower the cost of that, they phase out some of these programs and benefits in time.

But, as things stand now, that's not happening. And phasing out those programs doesn't mean they're still not on the books years from now, because it'd be very hard to remove, right?

CLEAVER: Well, yes, to be honest, when we start those kinds of programs, Congress is always going to be very reluctant to change them, because the public is going to want them.

CAVUTO: Right.

CLEAVER: But there's a -- I mean, there are some things that are going to have to be cut, to your point about it doesn't add up.

There are going to be going to be necessarily parts in the Build Back Better that will have to be cut. And, as I said earlier, we can start reducing the years from 10 to whatever to make it work.

The president made a pledge. And...

CAVUTO: But that wouldn't make it work, right, Congressman? I mean, if you think about it -- and you were astute enough to say it's very hard for Congress under any party to remove a popular program.

So just saying you're going to make a three-year program a two-year program or a five-year program a four-year program doesn't mean that that program isn't going to be on the books for many years to come, right?

CLEAVER: That is true.

But in terms of this Congress, I think the intentionality is that it it's - - it would be a 10-year deal or something shorter.

But, look...

CAVUTO: The progressives don't want to go that far, though, right? I mean, as you know, Congressman, they have said, yes, we will cut a little. We're not going to cut to the size and the degree that moderates want.

Where are you on this? What do you think the final will be? Because the appearance here seems to be that the president aligns himself more with the progressives than he does the moderates, maybe like yourself.

CLEAVER: Well, I think he's aligning himself with getting the bill through, understanding that compromise is required in a democracy. Without compromise, there is no democracy. And there will be compromise in this -- in this bill.

And so we -- we can talk about it now as it is, because that's the way it is.

CAVUTO: Yes.

CLEAVER: But the truth of the matter is, at some point in the very near future, it's going to be different.

And I think when you see the final numbers when this comes up -- and I think it is going to reach the floor, both the House and the Senate.

CAVUTO: All right.

CLEAVER: It -- the numbers are going to be a little more realistically fulfilling the president's statement about no increase in taxes.

CAVUTO: All right, well, we will see. I mean, that takes a leap here.

You're going to have to look at the money going out and the money coming in. And then maybe they -- maybe they settle that.

But, Emanuel Cleaver, I want to thank you, sir, for joining us, waiting through that speech.

Fair and balanced now, John Barrasso, the Republican from Wyoming, Senate Republican Conference chairman.

Senator, just a quick take on the president saying all paid for, won't add a penny to the debt or the deficit. Do you agree?

SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): Well, it will add to the debt. It will add to the deficit. You're going to see higher taxes by trillions of dollars. It will hit everybody.

You will see a higher debt by trillions of dollars.

CAVUTO: He says it won't. It's the $400,000-and-over crowd. You don't believe him?

BARRASSO: Oh, not at all.

And the president -- and higher -- everybody is paying higher prices today for everything compared to when Joe Biden came into office. He made a big pitch there on the speech about not adding to gas taxes.

Look, people in Wyoming who go to fill up the tank, they're paying $25 or $30 more per tank fill than they were when he came into office. When they go to the grocery store, they're paying 25 to $30 more to fill their grocery cart.

That's where people are feeling the pain of this administration and the inflation. And it's only going to get worse if something like this gets passed.

CAVUTO: So, that's where you come with the idea the people are going to pay higher taxes. They're paying it in inflation, higher prices for goods, right? That's where you're coming from, right?

BARRASSO: Well, they're going to -- when you have 40 different taxes in this legislation, everyone's going to be paying.

Neil, the thing I'm getting the most letters and calls about, more than I have in all my years in the Senate, is this idea of supersizing the IRS, which is in this bill, $80 billion to hire an army of IRS agents.

And Janet Yellen has been very clear. They want to spy on your checking account, want to look at any check you write or deposit that's over $600. The only reason they want to do that is to basically squeeze more tax money out of American taxpayers.

We're not talking about people making over $400,000. They're looking at the men and women in Wyoming going to work every day, and they want to use that money to pay for this big government socialist agenda.

CAVUTO: All right, I think you're referring to this IRS enforcement provision that would police transactions as low as $600.

But if I could switch gears, Senator, and get your take on the debt ceiling quagmire right now, Janet Yellen, the Treasury secretary, said, unless this is resolved, and soon, we're looking at a recession, and maybe a bad one. Do you agree with that?

BARRASSO: Well, we are -- we are not going to fail to raise the debt ceiling. And the Democrats need to do it, but they want a blank check.

They want to pay for not just previous spending. They want to be able to add lots more spending all the way through the next election into December of 2022.

CAVUTO: So, you don't want anything to do with that, right, Senator? Republicans and all don't want anything to do with that.

If it was a choice between them doing the wrong thing, and maybe the bigger right thing to just get the debt ceiling raised to avoid a default, where would you be on that?

BARRASSO: Well, the debt ceiling will be raised.

I saw Janet Yellen state, the Congressional Budget Office, that this may go all the way into November. The Democrats have the votes in the House, have the votes in the Senate, and they have the White House.

And I would just point out that, when George W. Bush was in office, Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, all of that group, including Dick Durbin, all voted multiple times to not raise the debt ceiling.

Neil, you look at the Constitution and what it says about the power of Congress to basically put the position of the country into debt, this is a time for accountability.

CAVUTO: All right.

BARRASSO: This is the time where it -- really, the rubber meets the road.

And if people want to do a lot of spending, they have to do...

CAVUTO: Understood. So, it's on them. They have got to -- they have got to solve this.

We will watch it closely, Senator Barrasso.

BARRASSO: They're not getting us -- we're not going to rubber-stamp their reckless spending.

CAVUTO: Got it. All right, and here we stand. All right.

In the meantime here, there were other developments in Washington today, including that famous whistle-blower detailing all the problems at Facebook, that they lie and misrepresent what they said they would do.

The fallout -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: The bad news is, the middle of October, we could run out of cash in this country. The good news is, about the same time, Adele will release a new song, just one song.

She told me, hello, it's good news -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUPERT MURDOCH, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, NEWS CORPORATION: We like startups, like FOX News.

CAVUTO: And FOX Business.

MURDOCH: And FOX Business, indeed, which FOX News is now one of our most valuable assets in all of News Corporation. And we started that when everyone thought I was nuts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: This is how far we have come, a big day debut today, as we recognized our 25th anniversary as a network. I'm proud to be a part of that, Suzanne Scott, our CEO, Jay Wallace, the big cheese running news here, and some of the originals, all to celebrate what has been a remarkable story that defied the odds.

And I'm very, very proud to be a part of it all.

The fact of the matter is the backdrop for FOX remains the backdrop and the excitement of news that has riveted us for the better part of a quarter- century. And it played out on Capitol Hill again today. I'm not talking about the debt argument and whether we're going to be spending trillions more.

I'm talking about Facebook, and, well, a whistle-blower who had some startling things to say about how the company operates and maybe even lies.

Aishah Hasnie with more -- Aishah.

AISHAH HASNIE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Neil. Good afternoon to you.

You know what? Lawmakers on the Hill, specifically these senators today, no longer trust Facebook. And now they want to see founder and CEO Mark Zuckerberg here on Capitol Hill to testify next.

Facebook whistle-blower, right, Frances Haugen says the company is -- quote -- "morally bankrupt" and that it consistently chose profits over the public good, deceived the public, its investors and even governments about how the site is spreading misinformation, stoking divisions, and also harming children, like how it knows its algorithms are leading children to anorexia content.

She also warned that she has strong national security concerns about the way Facebook operates and allows adversarial nations to conduct espionage over other countries on its platform.

Now, Facebook pushing back today, a spokesperson undermining her claims, denying the allegations, and instead calling on Congress, really pointing the finger back to lawmakers and calling on them to create standards for the Internet as a whole.

Both Republicans and Democrats did not like that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Mark Zuckerberg should come forth voluntarily. He needs to testify in response.

The statement made by Facebook, very defensive and demeaning. Mark Zuckerberg is the one to answer in the committee before us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASNIE: And, Neil, the question now is, what happens next? Now that we have had this bombshell testimony, what will Congress actually do about it?

There is a bipartisan push to take action. We're seeing a lot of lawmakers come forward and talk about all these bills and pieces of legislation that they want to push to increase security and transparency over the Internet. Senator Thune said something really interesting. He said lawmakers need to reform Section 230, but also engineer legislation that will fix the problems, but not overstep when it comes to rights like freedom of speech online.

So, it's tricky, but they do want to get something done -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Well, good luck with that.

Aishah, thank you very much.

HASNIE: Yes, you bet.

CAVUTO: Leeza Garber, attorney extraordinaire, and cybersecurity expert as well.

Leeza, it seems like regulation is inevitable. We're just not clear what kind. What do you think?

LEEZA GARBER, ATTORNEY: Facebook is having a terrible week. And it's only Tuesday. And I think that the legislation is one of the most frustrating pieces for privacy advocates, for cybersecurity advocates, and now for the public.

We should feel so grateful for this whistle-blower coming forward. This is one of the most in-depth hearings we have had on social media to date, and also some of the most educated and insightful questions we have gotten from the senators too.

The frustrating piece about the legislation is, we see dozens of bills proposed by states about censorship issues and trying to shine a spotlight on the transparency concerns they have with Facebook and its Instagram and WhatsApp holdings.

But there's also questions about Section 230 and how privacy should be regulated on social media in general. And, unfortunately, these questions have lingered for years, just like the antitrust cases continue to linger for years.

CAVUTO: Leeza, real quickly, I mean, if a CEO misrepresented or didn't make good on a promise that he would address issues like this that came up in prior testimony on the Hill, did he perjure himself?

GARBER: He could certainly answer to charges of perjury. And that's part of why the whistle-blower has gone to the SEC.

She filed approximately eight complaints. And there are certainly issues of whether he's been truthful, whether the company has misrepresented itself in terms of how it affects children, sex trafficking, political endeavors online on its platform.

And really what it comes down to is, there's inherently a problem with how it operates. The government needs to step in. We have to have private entities also step in to protect the public.

CAVUTO: All right, we will watch what happens.

Leeza Garber, I want to thank you for that.

You have been hearing a lot about the trillions of dollars we're in debt, and maybe we're adding that. Joe Biden says we're not adding to the debt. So, they have apparently come up with -- like, the only thing I can liken it to is an Austin Powers solution or Dr. Evil solution, a trillion dollar coin.

This is no joke -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Well, here's one way to raise the debt limit. How about a trillion-dollar coin? I guess you would need quite a few of them.

Peter Doocy. What's going on here? I have heard this kicked around a lot. What's it about?

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The theory, Neil, is -- and it's floated by some former folks that used to work at the Mint -- is that, in a complete pinch, if the United States needed that trillion dollars to avoid a default, then the people at the Mint could just make a new plaster mold that says, United States of America, $1 trillion, pour some platinum in, and then just drop it off at the Federal Reserve, you can pay your bills, and all the checks will cash.

But right now, the Treasury secretary hates this idea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET YELLEN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: I'm opposed to it. And I don't believe that we should consider it seriously. It's really a gimmick.

And what's necessary is for Congress to show that the world can count on America paying its debts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: She's opposed to it, but she's talking about it. And she would prefer that lawmakers do something, but she's also warning about how quickly the economy would crater if the U.S. somehow defaults on debt payments.

And the White House says this is something they have briefly looked at, but they are not willing to do right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I think, as was reported, we obviously look at a range of options. And none of those options were viable, either because they wouldn't be accepted by the Federal Reserve, by the guidance of our Treasury secretary, or just by legal restrictions.

So we know that the only path forward here is through Congress acting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: And there's a story in Axios that says they could make this trillion-dollar coin at the Mint in West Point and then take it on a short helicopter ride to the Federal Reserve in New York, but then that introduces all kinds of new concerns or thoughts about security -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Yes, whoever has that coin has a lot of money.

Peter, I have heard of crazy things, but, man, that tops it. Peter Doocy on all of that.

Well, out of the blue, we had a big surprise announcement, when Dr. Francis Collins of the NIH said he was stepping down, caught a lot of people off guard. So we thought we'd ask him about it next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neil, congratulations on 25 years. You have proven that a really good guy can still shut them down. Here's to 25 more, my friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: That is one very funny and very, very nice man.

I think you could say certainly the latter part about Dr. Francis Collins. He is the head of the National Institutes of Health. And for the better part of a dozen years, under three different presidents, he has been serving just that.

But he said, you know what? I'm done now.

It caught the world off-guard, because, while he had kicked around the notion of eventually stepping down, the timing surprised people.

Dr. Collins kind enough to join us right now.

Doctor, why now?

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Well, Neil, you don't want to go out when everybody says, oh, my God, thank God the guy is finally leaving.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: It's kind of a better idea to go out with people say, oh, why now? It's too soon. So, I'm aiming for that.

But, no, there's a better reason. Twelve years is a long time. No other NIH director has stayed in this job even close to that. And so it's time for new leadership, new vision. Institutions need that, especially scientific institutions.

And NIH is in a good place right now. Of the 27 institutes and centers that have terrific leaderships, I have recruited 20 of them, so I know they're really good. And I'm not worried, with COVID-19 still, of course, a huge challenge, that we would lose significant momentum if I step away by the end of the year.

We're OK. We're doing what we need to scientifically. So it just seems like it's time for me to step away, get back into my research lab, focus on some interesting scientific projects, and figure out what I want to do when I grow up.

CAVUTO: I was just feeling uncomfortable, because I have been here at FOX for 25 Years, doctor. And I don't know whether you were trying to telegraph any messages to me.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Did you bounce this off Dr. Fauci? Because people don't realize, but you're Dr. Anthony Fauci's boss, technically.

COLLINS: Yes.

CAVUTO: What did he tell you when you shared this news?

COLLINS: He tried to talk me out of it...

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: ... because, yes, he and I have worked closely together now over many years. He's been there longer than I have. But I have been there a pretty long time. And I think we have been good scientific partners.

But he totally got it and understood that there is a time for this sort of decision to get made, and this is a reasonable one. And it gives the president a chance to identify a new NIH director. It's a presidential appointment. It would have to be confirmed by the Senate. We know that takes a little while.

So you don't want to wait too late in a term before you start figuring out what to do here. Find the best scientist you possibly can to be my successor. That's what I'm looking for to happen.

CAVUTO: Doctor, did the timing of this have anything to do with the heat and pressure that both you and Dr. Fauci have encountered over what you knew, when you knew it about the source of the coronavirus in this Wuhan lab and whether, deliberately or inadvertently, your funding helped provide that?

COLLINS: So, no, it didn't, Neil.

I'm glad you're asking, because, of course, people are always sort of looking for some kind of cause and effect here. I want to absolutely assure you and anybody else listening that had nothing to do with my decision.

And I also want to say that, while this is an important issue that we need to understand what happened, how did this virus get started in China, that our funding of that research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology was a million miles away in terms of the genome of the virus that we're talking about.

And to draw that connection is, frankly, absolutely not supportable by the data. And I do wish people would look more closely at that and recognize that that's not an area that is going to give us an answer to how SARS-CoV- 2 got started.

CAVUTO: Do you think it's possible that it did get started there and did get started in a lab there?

COLLINS: I think, most likely, this was a natural origin starting in a bat, maybe traveling through an intermediate host.

I can't rule out the possibility that, secretly, the Wuhan Institute got that virus and was studying it and had a lab accident and it got loose. I have no evidence at all to support that, but I can't exclude it.

I wish the Chinese would come clean and reveal their lab records and hospital records of people who got sick in November 2019. Just put this in a place where we actually had information. They don't seem willing to do that.

CAVUTO: You had supported a lot of, I think, originally, Doctor, President Biden's mandates for federal workers to get vaccinated. It's since spread, as you know, to working with OSHA to police regular companies that have 100 or more workers to do the same.

Do you think this is going too far, the mandate issue, or are you OK with it if it leads to more vaccinations, fewer COVID cases?

COLLINS: I'm OK with it if it's going to save lives.

Neil, we have lost 700,000 people to this disease. And at least 100,000 of them didn't need to die, if we'd been able to get vaccines accepted by people who have still had trouble seeing why they would want them.

And I'm sorry if it has to go to this direction of becoming more heavy- handed in a mandate, but do we want to lose another couple thousand lives that couldn't -- didn't really have to be lost? It just feels like this is the moment to do that.

And, remember, people who are rejecting vaccination are not just -- it's not just about themselves. It's about, OK, who else will you infect when you get sick? This is a corporate -- a community responsibility.

Freedom is not just about rights. It's also about responsibilities. And if we want to end this pandemic, we have all got to be willing to do our part.

CAVUTO: You have worked under three presidents. Who was your favorite?

COLLINS: Oh, I don't like to play favorites, especially on a television news program.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: They were all people of remarkable, interesting character. And I got to know all three of them pretty well. And they were totally different.

So I'm going to dodge your question, Neil.

CAVUTO: You have. You're very artfully doing that.

You're also a man of faith who has to reconcile with science. You have walked that line. Do you think the scientists only take over from here?

COLLINS: I think science and faith go hand in hand.

CAVUTO: All right.

COLLINS: I don't really want to see a future where one has to win and the other has to lose. Hey, they're complementary. There are different ways of looking for truth.

Science is pretty good answering questions about how things work. You need faith to answer questions about why.

CAVUTO: That's very well put.

Dr. Francis Collins, enjoy your retirement. You will still be working. Enjoy your retirement. But you kids with just 12 years at any one place, I wish you well, I have got 25.

Dr. Francis Collins, the head of the National Institutes of Health, the NIH, thank you, sir.

All right, politics plays a part in every decision. I'm not saying the doctor's here, but it's heated. And, by the way, the one thing I have discovered over the 25 years I have been here at this wonderful network is how often just politics dominates all the stories.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five, four, three, two.

CAVUTO: I'm Neil Cavuto, and this is the "Cavuto Business Report."

Robert Rubin, the Treasury secretary of the United States, joins us from Washington.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Instead of owning up to it, they ran ads accusing the Democrats of spending the Social Security surplus, which was just false.

CAVUTO: Well, they say they're not.

CLINTON: Well, they say they're not that. And they may not be if they have a big enough across-the-board cut. But until there are across-the-board cuts, they were.

RICHARD GRASSO, FORMER CEO, NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE: Our heroes will now open the marketplace, the green button.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CAVUTO: Even in the face of uncertainty and a multiyear campaign, as the White House says this could be, that the markets still advance. What do you make of that?

GRASSO: Well, I think the market -- as you know very well, Neil, the market is a great barometer of what's to come.

CAVUTO: Afghanistan, it's looking to pass out a pretty big 10 tin cup. It's looking for $45 billion over the next 10 years. I mean, how doable is that? And how much would the U.S. pay?

COLIN POWELL, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, we're all going to have to contribute to Afghanistan's not even reconstruction, construction in the first instance. This is a very broken country.

CAVUTO: Do you feel, Congresswoman, that there's enough blame to go around, that there were mistakes made in the Clinton administration, mistakes maybe made in this administration, that these commission hearings are effectively a moot point?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): No, I think it was very important for us to have the commission hearing. I was the first person to introduce the idea of a 9/11 Commission.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Any time there's an allegation of abuse, we investigate. That's what transparent societies do.

We have got a press corps that's constantly asking tough questions about prisoner treatment, for example. You just asked one. And that's what open societies do. They answer the questions by saying...

CAVUTO: But now President Carter has said, sir, shut it down. Joe Biden said shut it down.

BUSH: Yes.

CAVUTO: Do you think it should be shut down?

BUSH: Well, we're exploring all alternatives as to how best to do the main objective, which is to protect America.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The stakes are very high in Iraq. An Iraq that is peaceful and begins to move toward democracy is going to be a pillar of a different kind of Middle East.

CAVUTO: But you really see that as something that is a short-term possibility, or just totally out of the question right now?

RICE: A democratic Iraq? No, I think...

CAVUTO: A peaceful Iraq.

RICE: A peaceful Iraq, I think, is in Iraq's future. They are going through the most terrible violence at this particular point in time because there are a lot of determined enemies.

CAVUTO: Barack Obama and John McCain, each wanting to be the next president of the United States.

In a race where they're very touchy about mentioning race as an issue, feminism as an issue, age is OK.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): Yes.

CAVUTO: What do you make of that?

(LAUGHTER)

MCCAIN: I'm outraged, Neil.

(LAUGHTER)

MCCAIN: It should be never mentioned.

Look, I had to show my party in my campaign not only my vision, but also my vigor.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: President-elect Barack Obama.

We are in the middle of a major party here for the 44th president of the United States.

You have already had a lot of emergency measures, for whatever reason, made the deficit worse, and now it's like you're waking up and discovering religion. I mean, what happened?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, we're not getting religion. I will tell you what we did. We stopped the hemorrhaging.

CAVUTO: Well, we still have about a 10 percent unemployment rate.

CLYBURN: Yes, we have, but it could be 16 or 17 percent, according to some the Republican economists that I have listened to.

CAVUTO: Well, maybe so, Congressman. On Pluto, I might be thin, but the reality is, I got to deal with life on Earth.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You will not see your taxes increase one single dime.

CAVUTO: Is he going to have a George Bush Sr. moment now?

DAN QUAYLE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think everybody knows that taxes are going to go up for everyone. He may have a higher percentage for those that are over $250,000, but taxes are going to go up.

CAVUTO: Things just getting started here at the Democratic National Convention.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: At the big desk tonight, my FOX News colleagues Neil Cavuto.

CAVUTO: No offense, sir, but you didn't answer my question.

Congressman, how did it go out there? How did it go? You got a good feel for things?

FMR. REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI): Actually, it went great.

CAVUTO: You ready for tonight? How long will the speech be?

Obviously, you could see there the bonding and the respect the congressman has for me.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I believe the right course for America is one where government steps in to help those that are in need. We're a compassionate people. But then we get -- let people build their own lives, create enterprises. We believe in free people and free enterprise, not redistribution.

CAVUTO: He's literally just feet from us now, feet from where I am.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): We all need to stand for what we believe in. I think the Republican Party is big enough in order for there to be a vibrant debate on these issues. But, ultimately, we need to be not just the opposition to Barack Obama and the left. We need to be the alternative.

CAVUTO: Welcome to the sixth Republican presidential debate of the 2016 campaign here on the FOX Business Network.

You came back with a surgical strike, now, with good humor sometimes. But, other times, it was the first time I have seen in you, sir, a little bit of anger.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Well, look, maybe I'm getting better.

CAVUTO: With those 20 electoral votes and capturing the Keystone State, we now have our next president.

Donald Trump is now the 45th president of the United States.

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): The Schumer shutdown reflects that the Democrats are more engaged in campaigning and politics than they are in governing.

CAVUTO: And you guys aren't?

SCOTT: Almost every single Republican voted to extend funding for the government.

CAVUTO: Almost. Four did not.

SCOTT: Out of 50.

CAVUTO: There are many in your party who are salivating at their prospects in the midterms, talk of a blue wave. Many of them are mentioning the I- word, impeachment, if they get control of the House. What do you think of that?

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not me. I don't talk about impeachment. I think that's the wrong thing for Democrats to do.

JAMES MATTIS, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It's understandable, Neil. Political leaders don't want wars generally. They want peace. They want prosperity.

CAVUTO: But you have to answer to those political leaders.

MATTIS: Military leaders bring war's grim realities into those discussions, and you have to play the ball where it lies.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): Bernie keeps saying Medicare for all. I said, Bernie, we can't even pay for Medicare for some. I says, right now, the trust fund is going to go broke by 2026. And these are people that paid into and earned it. Now you want to expand it, what happens? So it doesn't make sense at all.

CAVUTO: What if he were your nominee for president and it's him vs. Donald Trump? Who do you vote for?

(LAUGHTER)

MANCHIN: Well, it wouldn't be Bernie.

CAVUTO: For me, the Super Bowl is where I'm coming from today in Des Moines, Iowa.

What's unique about New Hampshire, the fact that most of the voters who are passionate about, well, voting are young.

And to hear traders tell it, it is not about the virus. It is not knowing what is next for this virus, because it is spreading so fast from just China, where it all started, to some 40 countries today.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: This is a public health issue. And we're all working together against a very common enemy. And that is the virus.

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: From a military perspective. Neil, our focus is on completing the drawdown.

CAVUTO: If the country is overrun by the Taliban, what will that say about our 20 years there? A waste?

KIRBY: I don't think we want to get into speculating and hypotheticals here.

CAVUTO: It is over. Our 20-year ordeal in Afghanistan is over.

Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto, and this is "Your World."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAVUTO: It has been an amazing ride, so many news developments.

Between FOX News and FOX Business, I think I have had the best of both worlds. I often say -- and some of you get tired of hearing it -- I'm really not about the red or the blue. Don't carry either party's water. I'm about the green. I follow the money. I'm pretty good at numbers, following the numbers, when they make sense, when they don't make sense.

But this honor for the last quarter-century, where you have allowed me into your homes, that's an honor I can never forget. And we're going to keep at it, because, unlike Dr. Collins, who just said after 12 years, that's it, no offense to him. I'm not at that point where I'd say that's it.

Others, including some of you, might regret that. But I love what I'm doing. And I love the honor of doing it for you. We all do it at FOX. That's why these 25 years and you are so special.

Good night.

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