‘Your World’ on cyberattacks, NASA’s Venus plans

This is a rush transcript from "Your World with Neil Cavuto," June 3, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: In the meantime, a lot of Americans not looking forward to what has become a routine event, it seems, not only with the meatpacker JBS, but now the MTA, a Martha's Vineyard ferry, Colonial Pipeline. On and on we go.

So many businesses hit and attacked and hacked, some of them paying up, but a lot of people wondering what is really going down right now. The administration has sent a clear message to corporate America, harden up, or things could get worse. But is it their responsibility or the government's?

We're into all of that, as is Hillary Vaughn on Capitol Hill with the very latest.

Hey, Hillary.

HILLARY VAUGHN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Neil, well, President Biden says he's closely looking at possibly retaliating against Russia for these recent ransomware attacks.

But the White House today says it is up to the private sector to protect themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: ... can't do it alone. Business leaders have a responsibility to strengthen their cyber-defenses to protect the American public and our economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUGHN: But the U.S. Chamber of Commerce senior vice president for cyber tells me the status quo isn't working. There does need to be consequences and a credible deterrent from the federal government to hackers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER ROBERTI, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: No company is going to be able to defend itself against a determined nation-state actor or a very sophisticated threat actor that is basically operating either with the tacit or explicit consent of a nation-state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUGHN: President Biden says he will be pressing Putin about this latest round of ransomware attacks.

But, if Putin does not play ball, the acting director of Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, Brandon Wales, tells me it is really tough for the U.S. government to be able to track them down overseas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON WALES, ACTING DIRECTOR, U.S. CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY: It is challenging, because, many times, these cyber criminals are operating from countries that are not doing enough to stop them. They're not cooperating with U.S. law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUGHN: The White House can -- says they cannot tell private companies that they cannot pay off hackers, but they are working on putting together a comprehensive strategy to figure -- to help companies figure out how to deal with these ransom payments.

But acting Director Wales told me today that every time a company pays a ransom, they just make the entire thing more profitable for hackers, and encourage hackers to go after bigger and more important companies -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Yes, some of those businesses often have no choice, Hillary, though, without some help or some assist from the president.

We will see.

Thank you, Hillary Vaughn. Very good reporting on that.

Again, whether all of these incidents are tied by the same hacker, there's no way of knowing this early on, but it does keep happening, doesn't it?

Our Charlie Gasparino taking a look at the private sector and how it is trying to deal with this.

A lot easier said than done, right, buddy?

CHARLIE GASPARINO, FOX NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

I mean, and, Neil, they are -- as you know, we work for a private sector company. We get e-mails all the time about phishing and watching out for spyware being download -- downloading spyware to your computer.

But there's something bigger here. Let's unpack this a little bit. President Biden is spending $6 trillion, or maybe more, on infrastructure. At least that's what he wants. That's his ask. A lot of stuff in that infrastructure is stuff that isn't typically infrastructure. Some of it is, but it's often stuff that's handled by states.

For example, New York state builds a bridge to New York state. Taxpayers finance it, not the federal taxpayers, because New York state residents use it. If he really wants to help national infrastructure, which this bill does not do, he should be diverting that money into cybersecurity and these sort of broader, more federally mandated or more federally -- things that have more to do with the federal infrastructure than building a bridge in New York City.

We need infrastructure in terms of computers, in terms of cybersecurity. There's not one dime of that in this infrastructure bill. And it's a real shame. And, I mean, the Republicans should seize on this, because businesses -- as the last guy said, it's very difficult for a business to guard against everything.

And this is a national issue. We are being attacked. I mean, it's like saying a business needs to find -- finance its own army to stop China from hacking in or Russia from hacking into its software. It's crazy.

The government, the national government, the federal government has to have a response. It should be spending some of some of those trillions on this stuff, because this stuff could literally shut down the economy. And guess what? If you spend money on this, they will probably create some jobs as well and stop the economy from shutting down, Neil.

CAVUTO: Well put.

Charlie Gasparino, thank you very much, my friend.

To Leon Panetta now, who has been very worried about all this, of course, the former CIA director, former defense secretary, former White House chief of staff.

Leon, very good to see you. And thank you for taking the time.

To you, this is not a partisan issue. It is a scary national security issue, isn't it?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Yes, this is not just criminal activity trying to get ransomware as a result of impacting on our infrastructure.

I think this is a national security issue. When you have a cyberattack that can shut down the Colonial Pipeline and create chaos on the East Coast, when you have an attack now on another part of our infrastructure, meat distribution systems, and have the impact of raising prices on meat, when you're impacting on our transportation systems, my concern is that vital infrastructure that is critical to our national security is now at risk.

CAVUTO: You know, Leon, I'm getting the sense that it's upping the ante, right, I mean, from the days when we got all unnerved when Target told thousands of -- millions of customers that their security was breached.

But now it extends to Mass Transit Authority and trains, extends to Martha's Vineyard and ferries and to meet with JBS and, as you said, the energy concern Colonial Pipeline. I can go on and on.

The one thing that they have in common, regardless of who's responsible, whether it's the same group responsible for all of these, is that they're picking up the pace. And I'm wondering if that -- if it is indeed coming from Russia, whether it's countenanced by Vladimir Putin or not, is that a sign of things to come and that more will come ahead of the big summit in a couple of weeks?

PANETTA: Oh, I don't think there's any question about that, Neil.

Look, I have been saying it for a long time, but cyber is the battlefield of the future. And we can see it now happening before our eyes. You have got these sophisticated viruses that can be deployed into our computer systems, and virtually shut those computer systems down.

And you have the potential today for a cyberattack that could take down our electric grid system, take down our transportation systems, our chemical systems, our water systems, take down our financial systems. You could virtually paralyze this country with a massive cyberattack.

That clearly is something we should be concerned about, because it's our national security that's at risk.

CAVUTO: There are a lot of folks who are saying, in light of this, President Biden shouldn't meet with Vladimir Putin, that it is so brazen, what Putin is up to, or at least countenancing, that it sort of builds his stature. Why do that?

What do you think?

PANETTA: Well, I, frankly, think it's important to send Putin a very clear message that there are lines that we will not allow to be crossed.

I think, for too long, Putin has assumed weakness on the part of the United States. It's empowered him to go into the Crimea, to go into the Ukraine, to go into Syria, to go into Libya, to attack our own election systems in this country, to engage in a cyberattack, SolarWinds, which impacted on our industries and corporations and federal agencies.

So he has taken advantage of this perception of weakness. And I think it's really important for President Biden to make very clear to him that we consider this a matter of national security, and that it must come to an end. Otherwise, Russia will pay a price.

CAVUTO: I don't know what the price could be, with still more sanctions on a country that seems to blow them off.

I am curious what you make of how easy it seems to be for people to hack in to our most advanced systems, in a couple of conditions, some defense positions?

And I wonder. I thought, after the 2016 experience, with concerns that Russian operatives were trying to intrude in the election, and then with concerns that they were at it again in 2020, that we would have learned a few things.

And yet it picks up the pace. What's going on? Why are we still so vulnerable?

PANETTA: I think part of my concern is that this is a pretty hit-and-miss operation, in which everybody is pretty much on their own.

CAVUTO: Yes.

PANETTA: And I really think that what's required now is a national strategy to deal with these cyberattacks that makes very clear that the United States is going to put together a very strong defense and an offense in order to deal with these attacks.

Secondly, I think we need to have a stronger bond, frankly, between the public and private sector. I regret this comment that somehow the private sector is on its own.

Look, our infrastructure is related to our national security. And a lot of the private sector is running our infrastructure. We have to work with them to make sure that they are properly defended, because it is in our national security interests.

And, thirdly, I think we really do need to be on the cutting edge of this technology. We have got to develop better technology to deal with it. We have to develop the kind of expertise, cutting-edge expertise, that is required, if we're going to deal with these adversaries of ours and these criminal operations that are basically attacking the United States of America.

CAVUTO: You know, I was talking to a military operative, Leon, on FOX business.

And the issue came up, all right, if they're going to keep hacking us and keep going after us, we can do the same. We can be hacking each other. What do you think of that?

PANETTA: As I said, we need to have a very strong defense.

I remember, when I went into the CIA, I was told we were getting 100,000 attacks a day. I'm sure that's multiplied several-fold since I was there. So we're getting a lot of attacks.

And I think it's absolutely critical to have a very good defense, but to also have offensive capability, where we can use cyber-capabilities to go after those who are attacking us and show that, when they do this, they have to pay a price.

CAVUTO: Leon Panetta, thank you, sir, the former CIA director, former defense secretary, former White House chief of staff, a bipartisan call to arms here, as he put it, to go ahead and acknowledge the fact that this keeps happening.

We have got to do something. The time for sort of pussyfooting around the issue, well, that's over.

All right, a lot of you might have heard back and forth in some interviews with Dr. Fauci and what he knew and when he knew it regarding the origin of COVID-19. So I feel all the news networks have done that to death. Some people will find these he was in on the secret, all that. Others say, no, no, no, he's a giant.

I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in going forward and a comment he made about where COVID goes from here. We're not out of the woods -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: We are just getting worried right now that President Biden does not -- again, does not want to form a presidential commission to look at the January 6 insurrection on Capitol Hill.

That's doesn't mean he's opposed to an investigation of this, that it should be in Congress' hands to follow up. On that front, we understand that Nancy Pelosi is considering making such a move, even though the United States Senate had rejected that as a possibility.

But, again, the president for his part, is not going to be appointing any presidential commission to look into how that all came into being and who was responsible, who were the catalysts and the bad actors, and how to prevent it from happening again.

So, 9/11-type -- so, no 9/11-type condition coming from the president of the United States, this is, of course, coming from Joe Biden himself just a few minutes ago. We will keep you posted on any further developments.

Also keeping you posted on Dr. Anthony Fauci. There is a cottage industry building, depending on the news network, of what he knew and when he knew it. I felt, looking at all the news networks today and the business networks, that that's been exhausted, that people have their own points of view on this subject, whether he was hiding something at the origins of COVID back in the earliest days, others who say that he was on top of it and handling it all well.

I am not here to judge.

What caught my attention in some of his comments was what he said about COVID right now, and that maybe, right now, we're not quite out of the woods. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: The one thing we want to make sure is that we don't declare victory prematurely, and feel that, because things are going in the right direction, that we don't have to keep vaccinating people.

We're on a really good track now to really crush this outbreak. What I am concerned about are those states in which the level of vaccination is low, that you may continue to see higher levels of cases as we get into the summer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: All right, so don't get ahead of our proverbial skis here, that seems to be his message.

Dr. Amesh Adalja joins right now, Johns Hopkins University infectious disease specialist.

What do you think, Doctor, what he's saying there, that there's a concern he has going into the summer and the fall? Do you share that concern?

DR. AMESH ADALJA, INFECTIOUS DISEASES SOCIETY OF AMERICA: There definitely are states where vaccination is not where we want it to be, states in the South like Mississippi, for example, states in Arkansas, where doses are going to be expired.

And that's going to leave the population susceptible to infection. One thing I think that's different, though, is that, in many of those states, we have got the high-risk individuals highly vaccinated. And that really prevents the cases that are inevitably going to occur, because COVID isn't going to zero, from translating into hospitals in crisis.

So, I do think we want to get the vaccination rate much higher in those states, but I don't think we're going to see New York-style outbreaks or what happened in the past, because our seniors are so heavily vaccinated.

CAVUTO: What do you say, Doctor, to those who do not want to get vaccinated? All sorts of temptations out there. We're going to explore that in the next segment.

But there are some who are saying, nope, not going to do it, don't see any reason to do it.

ADALJA: You have to really meet people where they are. There's lots of different reasons why people are not vaccinated.

Yesterday, someone just wanted me to give them a ride and sit there while they got vaccinated. So I did that.

So, it all just depends upon who's being -- who needs to be vaccinated. There are many different reasons. Some of it is just procrastinators. Some people need to be nagged a lot. There are other people that are completely against the vaccine. And they may eventually, as more and more of their friends and family members get vaccinated, as they see nobody is being controlled by a microchip, a couple days down the road, they may then decide to get vaccinated.

But it's going to be kind of a one-on-one thing. The people who wanted to get vaccinated, by and large, did. So now you have really just got to kind of take this kind of one step at a time with each person and try and nudge them the best you can.

And I think that's going to make -- it's going to be hard, but I think we can still continue to inch up. And the more we inch up, the better we're going to be.

CAVUTO: Doctor, man, you are a doctor's doctor. I mean, if you're helping people out through this, and they get nervous, and they want you with them, and you do that, man, you are -- you are a rare breed, sir.

So, let me ask you about where we stand on herd immunity. That's been the goal. Now they say, it's not really necessary, but we had -- if we have a stubborn part of the population, particularly young people, resistant to this, and a lot of those same young people returning to college campuses this fall, could we see a spurt in cases as a result?

ADALJA: We definitely could see cases occur when people are unvaccinated and they're gathering together and not social distancing.

However, the fact is, so many people have been vaccinated, so much -- so much prior immunity from infections in the past is there, that the virus is having a difficult time spreading. So, even unvaccinated people are going to be less likely to come into contact with it. But we will still see cases occur.

But they're going to be decoupled from hospitalizations and deaths, because the high-risk people have largely been vaccinated. Universities can make this easier by starting to mandate vaccines for their students, but also for their faculty and employees, which they have really been focused on the students, but it's also important to vaccinate the faculty and employees and have that be a mandate, if they're going to mandate that for students.

CAVUTO: All right, Doctor, very good seeing you.

Dr. Amesh Adalja, the Johns Hopkins University infectious disease specialists, and, apparently, if we're really nervous about getting the vaccination, he will come with you to the doctor.

That's pretty cool right there. That's pretty neat.

All right, in the meantime, what do you make of all these incentives right now to make sure people get shots? It's -- some have lottery systems going on. Others will give you free concerts. Then there's Anheuser-Busch, which will give you beer.

Would you drink to that? Put your arm out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: A million dollars cash or all the groceries you want to buy for a year just if you take that vaccination shot, which way would you go?

Psst. Go for the groceries.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CESAR VARGAS, ANHEUSER-BUSCH INBEV: When we reach this goal of getting 70 percent of Americans vaccinated, we're going to unlock the biggest beer giveaway in our history.

And we're going to -- we're going to buy America a round of beer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: You know, I was trying to push the Anheuser-Busch top executive there about this. How much is a round a beer? Do you have to prove the number of people you're giving the round to?

I just threw out the number 100. And he said he would actually have to check that.

But, be that as it may, this comes in light of all sorts of incentives to make sure you go ahead and get vaccinated, Kroger, for example, which is offering a year of free groceries. Others are putting up a million dollars.

Kroger would lose money on me with the grocery things, so I think I would go the grocery route. But that's just me.

We have got Juan Williams with us right now. Very cool to have him here. Carley Shimkus, very cool to have her here.

I think Carley works something like 20 hours a day. But she's here now.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Carley, what do you think of this? What do you think of this idea?

Now, the grocery thing, I would go for. But putting it in perspective, what we're seeing is more kind of goodies being dangled at people to get that vaccine. And young people, actually, like you, are not taking them up on it.

Why?

CARLEY SHIMKUS, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I am of two minds when it comes to vaccine incentives.

The first is intense curiosity, because we went from free Krispy Kreme doughnuts to a million dollars and free groceries for a year in like a month-and-a-half. So I just want to see where this goes. I mean, how much will they offer people? Land? Titles? Royalty?

(LAUGHTER)

SHIMKUS: I mean, I know it's not in style, but it just seems like we're spitballing here and all options are on the table.

The other, more prevailing feeling really is a question. And it is, have we lost our minds? Because these vaccine incentives are extremely expensive, and not altogether necessary, considering the number of people who have natural immunity. Couple that with the folks who voluntarily got vaccinated.

So, yes, they are fun, but a lot of this is taxpayer money. And I would rather pay fewer taxes, less taxes, than pay for somebody's burger and fries in New York.

CAVUTO: Wow. Well, aren't you the party pooper?

You know, Juan, I was thinking, the whole -- what if you did all the right things, right? You got vaccinated early. You wanted to look out for your fellow man and woman and make sure that you were safe and they would be safe.

There's no reward for them. It's these other Johnny-come-latelies who are getting the free groceries...

(LAUGHTER)

SHIMKUS: It's so true.

CAVUTO: ... and the million-dollar -- that doesn't seem right, Juan.

I don't know.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you remember that Bible story, Neil, the prodigal son?

The sinner comes home and he gets the big party, while the son that's been there all along doing what was right, he's like, what's going on?

CAVUTO: Right.

WILLIAMS: But here's the thing. And I think this is really important.

One, I don't see that it's all that much government money. What we're talking about is Kroger's, Anheuser-Busch. This is private companies. And I think they understand that if -- to get the American economy roaring again, we have got to get COVID under control.

People don't go back into the bars and hang out and buy lots of beers unless they feel safe. Major League Baseball, they're giving away tickets. Why? People don't go to the game unless they feel safe.

So, it's not only a matter of, gee, why is the government giving anybody a million bucks or why are the private companies doing this? Everyone sees that it's in our national self-interest and our economic self-interest to get the economy humming again.

I would say they're even going to do this overseas. I mean, if you're selling cars overseas, they're going to do it.

CAVUTO: All right.

You know, but, Carley, he mentioned the prodigal -- but, Carley, he mentioned the prodigal -- but he mentioned the prodigal son. And the good son, the good son, he doesn't even get the fatted calf. He has a thin little if that he's lucky.

(LAUGHTER)

SHIMKUS: Yes.

CAVUTO: And I'm just saying, there's no reward for those who were doing the right thing.

SHIMKUS: Yes.

CAVUTO: And I know there's a biblical story there that says, yes, but, in the long term, it's the good thing.

Well, yes, but look who got the fatted calf. Not me.

SHIMKUS: I know. I hope you get...

CAVUTO: Unless, unless, unless I'm going to Kroger, where I can find fatted calves.

SHIMKUS: That's what I was going to say.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: But go ahead.

(LAUGHTER)

SHIMKUS: And, you know, there is some federal money when it comes -- I believe, in Ohio, that $1 million incentive was COVID relief money...

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SHIMKUS: ... which really proves that a lot of states were given a little too much.

The other thing is, I just...

CAVUTO: Yes, but if it does some good and protects people, Juan, that's your point, right? It does a lot of good.

SHIMKUS: You know what, though, Neil?

CAVUTO: Go ahead, Carley.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: That's my point. Yes, that's my point.

SHIMKUS: I just feel like the best incentive was, in the early days of this, if you just told people, you could go back to a normal life, you don't have to wear a mask, that seems like the best incentive of all.

CAVUTO: Right.

SHIMKUS: And the federal government flubbed that one up by saying that fully vaccinated people still needed to wear masks.

I don't hate the vaccine incentives. Part of me feels like it's a little bit patronizing. Like, that's what you do for kids that don't eat their vegetables, like offer them yummy things. It's a little bit fun, but, also, I do think it's a bit of a waste of money.

CAVUTO: Juan?

WILLIAMS: I don't think it's a waste of money at all.

I mean, look, I think we all want to feel safe. I think we all want to get back to normal. I think we all want to have a really fun Fourth of July. And, to me, this is just not only a matter of public policy, but, as I was saying to Neil earlier, it's a matter of economic goodwill, that -- just good sense.

Everybody wants our businesses to thrive, our economy to get back in gear.

CAVUTO: Got it.

WILLIAMS: And we have got to get coronavirus under control to do it.

CAVUTO: They really have to redo that prodigal son story. I wonder how they would do it for today, right, guys?

Where you're talking to -- you're talking to the wayward son. I will give you a million dollars or the fatted calf. You can also call a friend.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: There you go. Come on home.

CAVUTO: That's my very poor -- that's my very poor Regis Philbin.

All right, guys, thank you all very, very much

So, again, to all you stragglers, have at it. The incentives are multiplying as we speak.

And so is the quest for space, this time to Venus -- yeah, Venus -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, Venus, young man. That seems to be the next call on the part of NASA. It wants to send to craft up there, as we have been busy visiting Mars.

But our actual closest neighbor is Venus. And this is something that's getting attention, because a lot of people think Venus could be Earth in the super future here, that, by looking at the greenhouse gas emissions and all the rest that have essentially, presumably, made its oceans boiling water and virtually uninhabitable, it might be a preview to coming attractions here.

That might be a leap, but we will go to Mike Massimino, the former NASA astronaut, "2 Funny Astronauts" podcast host, "Spaceman" author. He's a busy fellow.

Mike, great to see you.

I always herald Italian Americans who have had great accomplishments, way beyond this planet. And you were that, young man. So, congratulations.

But this push...

MIKE MASSIMINO, FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: Thank you. Thank you, Neil. What a great introduction. Thank you.

CAVUTO: There we go. There we go.

This push for Venus now, part of me remembers when we were doing this, what, three decades ago. So, can't you say, been there, done that, really didn't get much from that? What do you say?

MASSIMINO: No, well, I think we did get an awful lot from that. We learned a lot.

But that -- 30 years ago, a lot has happened in technology-wise that's available, and other discoveries have been made. So, the mapping of the Magellan spacecraft 30 years ago that was done was great, but it could not get the resolution to really understand what the planet was like and the surface was like that we can now get with new instruments, with the new technology.

So, this mission isn't going to launch tomorrow. It's going to be toward the end of this decade. And, by then, the spacecraft that will go will have the latest technology on board and be able to map it a lot better.

Plus, not that long ago, there was some evidence that there might be some biological material in the atmosphere, some organic material that created some of the chemicals that they have seen, that they observed, or what they think they might have observed in the atmosphere -- atmosphere of Venus. So it's worth taking a second look at that as well.

CAVUTO: You know, a lot of the people have been talking about studying the greenhouse effect there, geology there, that it could be a lesson for Earth, that what happened there and led to the oceans boiling away there -- we assumed they boiled -- we don't know -- could be a reminder and something timely for us to study.

Do you agree with that?

MASSIMINO: Well, I think, by understanding the planets around us that we think might have formed around -- formed around the same time and might have been similar, for example, even Mars, you know, Earth went in this great direction of supporting life, and with -- a lot of reasons for that, with the resources we have and our magnetic field, and so on.

And Venus, very close to the sun -- or closer to the sun, much hotter, inhospitable, as you mentioned. Mars, we haven't been able to find any signs of life, on the surface, at least.

But I think by studying those two planets and trying to figure out what happened, why Earth went in one direction, and those two planets that are right next to us went in opposite directions, we might learn a lot about our planet and how to keep it sustainable.

Whether or not it's a prediction of what's going to happen, I think that's a bit of a leap.

CAVUTO: Yes.

MASSIMINO: But, certainly, by looking at these -- our neighbors, we can learn a lot about our planet.

CAVUTO: You know, you have talked about 30 years ago, when we were last visiting Venus and all of that.

I mean, we have got a lot more competition these days, right? I mean, leaving aside just Russia, what China is doing on Mars right now, on the moon right now. India and Japan, I believe those two countries are looking at Venus missions of their own. What do you make of all of this?

MASSIMINO: Well, I think it's more and more countries now -- space is becoming more accessible for a number of reasons.

It's not just governments, but it's also private -- private companies going into space. It's opening up people's thought process. And with the new technology we can send to these places, we see more opportunity to explore.

So I think that we're just seeing a -- just a huge increase in the opportunities for people and experiments and understanding. I would like to see us cooperate with more of these countries. And we are.

For example, on the International Space Station, I think it's a great model, where it's the U.S. and Russia, the countries of Europe, Canada, and Japan and other countries all cooperating.

I think that these scientific programs, whether it's exploring space or in other areas of science, are great ways for us to find common ground between countries around the world. And, hopefully, we can cooperate and explore together.

CAVUTO: Mike Massimino, great seeing you again. Thank you so much, and to your service.

MASSIMINO: Neil, always a pleasure.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: ... yourself, young man.

Same here.

MASSIMINO: Thank you.

CAVUTO: All right, in the meantime here, as he was wrapping up there, I do want to bring your attention to a notice we got out of the Department of Justice, that it is making ransomware cases a top priority now.

This comes at a time we have seen one major business after another that has been hit, and hit hard, not the least of which JBS, the big meat supplier essentially to the world, that said about a quarter of its meat production was sidelined during this whole ransomware attack.

Keep you posted on that.

Keeping you posted as well on the surge in home prices. They're running up at the highest rate and the biggest increase in well more than a decade.

The guy who saw all of this coming and didn't lose faith, particularly in New York, when COVID it, and he has the listings to prove it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, you're not imagining it.

Home prices are going higher, a lot higher, in fact, the highest they have ever been, and the rate of increase, since way back in 2006. What, George W. Bush was president back then.

A lot of people thought that those days would never come back, especially when the COVID virus hit and everyone was getting out of New York, and everyone was saying, New York was finished, except one guy I remember, at the time, Ryan Serhant.

Of course, you remember him on Bravo, "Million Dollar Listing," much, much more, bestselling author, a couple of books out, "Sell It Like Serhant." But the one that I really like, "Big Money Energy," I think that's still out there right now. But he's a force of nature in himself, very optimistic. I think that's -- that has a lot to do with it.

Ryan, very good to see you.

RYAN SERHANT, BROKER: Good to see you. Thanks so much for having me.

CAVUTO: So, let's talk a little bit about what's going on here now.

I mean, last time you and I chatted, it wasn't a matter of prices running up across the board, but we didn't think they would last or go as high as they had since. Now, you did, actually.

SERHANT: Yes.

CAVUTO: But what do you make of where we are? Because now it's pricing some people out of the entry level market. And that could slow all of this down? What do you think?

SERHANT: Of course.

Listen, there is pent-up demand for housing since 2007. People keep talking about this bubble, it's a bubble, it's a bubble. But what is the definition of a bubble, right? A bubble occurs when buyers rush into a market on speculation that prices are going to continue to rise.

Crypto, right, so, the Reddit craze, everything we're seeing. Home prices have been depressed in the United States, if we just keep it national, since 2008. But we don't think about it that way because it's hard for us to think in decades.

What we're seeing right now isn't pent-up demand for housing since COVID from the last year. COVID was just like it was for a lot of industries, an accelerant, pushing people back into a housing market to look for homes that they not only just need, because they're having a baby or working or their lifestyle has changed, but homes that they actually also want.

And there is a national deficit of housing. It's as high as, I think, three million homes due to multiple years of underbuilding. And as such, any significant chance of extreme price declines is normal, but I think there is multiple years of runway here in what I feel is a very healthy housing market.

Sellers put their homes on the market. Buyers want to buy them. And it's amazing to me. When that happens, people say, oh, there must be something wrong. This must be a bubble.

CAVUTO: But I would agree with you in the larger -- here, that the supply- and-demand equation is certainly favoring still more demand chasing too little supply.

But I do get worried, anecdotally, when I hear these people who crowd around a seller's home and offer everything from free concerts to incentives to make them the appointed buyer.

SERHANT: Sure.

CAVUTO: It's not like it was back in the last housing boom went bust, when people would buy properties sight unseen and flip them.

I get that. I don't see that maybe in large enough numbers to be worried. But when you hear stuff like that, does it worry you?

SERHANT: Yes. Yes, of course.

I think people are pushed to follow the crowd. And a person is smart. An individual person can make smart, intelligent decisions. People, as a group, can be very stupid. And they can make irrational, drastic decisions based purely on fear.

And the fear now is the fear of missing out, the fear of not buying at the right price, the fear of not getting a home. And that fear is what's driving some of these crazy incentives that you're -- that you're hearing about.

But, listen, there are only so many houses. The last boom that we had, if you will, before the Great Recession was really driven by improper lending, right, and soft lending, so that anyone can buy a house who didn't -- who didn't need one...

CAVUTO: Right. Right.

SERHANT: ... or couldn't afford one. And we don't see that now.

This is people saying, hey, my lifestyle has changed. I want to be able to live and work in a different way. And the world has felt the same way now for the last year. And that's pushed people to want to make moves.

And so I just think the housing market has seen depressed prices for the last 12 years. And now we are trying to find that equilibrium, so that we will come down from the peak. And I think that might be towards the fall, possibly this coming winter.

But if you're a seller and you're looking to sell, don't wait for the market to get better, better, better, because we have no idea when that will stop.

CAVUTO: Got it.

SERHANT: Now is an amazing time.

But there's a lot of greed out there. And that's what I'm not OK with.

CAVUTO: Got it.

Ryan, great catching up with you.

Ryan Serhant, the Serhant founder, CEO, broker, "Million Dollar Listing," much, much more.

And as he was pointing out, the backdrop for a lot of this is still a pent- up demand that is proving itself with every piece of economic data we get, including some incredible numbers we got on jobs today.

I will explain after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: we have not seen people filing for jobless claims this low since before the pandemic.

Edward Lawrence on that phenomenon that is apparently picking up steam -- Edward.

EDWARD LAWRENCE, FOX BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Neil.

We saw some very good numbers on the initial jobless claims. But if you look under that, you dig deeper into this, that you see about 3.8 million people still sitting on the continuous jobless claim roles. And that means that some say they're being paid not to work here.

So, 25 states announced plans to end the federal add-on of $300 a week. The last one to do it was Maryland. All of those governors are Republican. Now, the other half of the states, Gretchen Whitmer from Michigan is doubling down on this, saying that, if people take a part-time job, they will still get the unemployment benefits.

Listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): We want to make sure that we are giving people all of the incentives to get back to work, so that they can take care of themselves and their families, and not forego other opportunities that can help them get back on their feet.

So you see a lot of states just kind of taking away help for people who are struggling. We don't think that's -- makes a lot of sense in this environment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAWRENCE: And the legislature does have to approve that plan.

But talk to any small business owner, they're seeing resumes, report who is applying for a job to the government. Then that person does not show up for the interview, thus keeping their unemployment benefits -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Edward, thank you very much.

To Art Hogan right now, National Securities Corporation genius here.

Art, obviously, this has been fuel to the markets, continued fuel to the economy. Just talked to a housing expert who thinks it's going to be very much more extended fuel to housing.

Where are you on all of this?

ART HOGAN, MARKET STRATEGIST: Yes, I think the your last guest that talked about the housing market was spot on.

And I think, when you think about household formation in the millennial population, that's just beginning. I think the peak house-buying age is 33 years old. And that peak doesn't come for three years. So I think he's right. I think it's a good long runway there.

But in terms of the ongoing improvement, the sequential improvement in economic data, especially around the labor force, remember, last month, we had a very disappointing non-farm payroll number. The three-month average is about 500,000 jobs being created. And if we have that pace continuously for the balance of this year, it's going to take us until well into the first quarter of next year before we get back to that pre-pandemic level of full employment.

So, to me, I think that we're moving in the right direction. I just don't think it's shockingly good news. I think it's good enough news.

CAVUTO: And you're right. Tomorrow, we got the employment data, and some people expecting more than 600,000 new jobs added. There's no way of knowing. We will find out then.

But what do you tell investors looking at this market, assessing this economy, whether to buy stocks or a house?

HOGAN: Yes, that's a great question.

It's actually a great time to be a house seller, if that's a decision you have been putting off, because I agree that things have gotten ahead of themselves when you look at the percentage increase on a year-over-year basis at this point in time, and the average selling price for the house in the United States is about $333,000. It was $286,000 this time last year.

But that's a lot -- that's really a demand issue. But it's certainly a supply issue. We're underhoused as a country.

I think that, when we think about long-term investing, we would really like to have investors put their money, their asset allocation in a very balanced way. Have some growth on one side of this barbell. Call it 5G, cloud computing, cloud security. On the other side, have some cyclicality.

As the economy improves here, you want to see industrials, materials, energy and financials. And if every two months, you rebalance that, and you sell your winners and buy some of your losers, keep that barbell level, I think you're going to outperform this market this year. You did last year. And I think that works again this year.

CAVUTO: You were optimistic last year at this time, Art, so I will take that one. We will see where we go.

Art Hogan, National Securities Corporation, uncanny read on these markets.

And, by the way, as Art and I were discussing here, the granddaddy of all the economic numbers we follow, the employment report for the month of May, is due out tomorrow. They're expecting the unemployment rate to dip back under 6 percent to 5.9 percent and see north of 660,000 jobs added to the economy.

Remember, the prior month, they were disappointed. These forecasts are never exactly right. But it's the trend they look at. And they say they like the trend.

Here's "The Five."

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