Should White House admit ObamaCare redistributes wealth?

Published Monday, November 25, 2013 / The Five
With Eric Bolling , Kimberly Guilfoyle , Bob Beckel , Dana Perino , Greg Gutfeld

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," November 25, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Eric Bolling, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Bob Beckel, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City. This is "The Five."

(MUSIC)

BOLLING: Big show today. Lots to get to.

Including Iran crushing us, the U.S., at the nuclear bargaining table, leaving only our key ally Israel alone and surrounded by people who want to kill them.

And some big storms that may make it harder for you to get home this Thanksgiving. We're going to tell you who's going to get hit and when.

But, first, more dishonesty from the White House on ObamaCare.

Americans don't trust the administration and for good reason. They haven't been straight forward about anything. "The New York Times," of all places, reporting over the weekend what we told you about all along. The president's health care law is about taking from one group and giving to another, aka redistributing.

Here's the key quote from "The New York Times," reminding us what the administration has been trying to hide all along. Quote, "The redistribution of wealth has always been a central feature of the law and lies at the heart of insurance market disruptions driving political attacks this fall."

Conservatives like me think he's a socialist. But the president doesn't always see it that way. Here's what he said last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would distinguish between the rhetoric and the tactics --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

OBAMA: -- versus the ideological differences. I mean, in most countries, you've got -- people called me a socialist sometimes. No, you've got to reach real socialists. You'll have a sense of what a socialist is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: He's not a real socialist. He's just a fake socialist.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: But he's not Bob.

BOLLING: Bob, come on, this is redistribution. "The New York Times"

calling it redistribution.

BECKEL: Certainly is. I mean, that's right. But to call him a socialist is really just obscene and absurd.

BOLLING: Wait, redistribution, isn't that the very heart of socialism?

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: You'd have to -- there's a lot about social system historically. It has nothing to do with Obama. But is there redistribution? Of course there is. That's something that those of us who are on the left believe very strongly about.

And so, you don't agree. Most people around this table don't agree.

But I think that there does have to be, if you're going to take a finite pot of money that's going to be available, if you want to cover in your country, then you're going to have to have some redistribution.

BOLLING: OK, we're -- you want to jump in?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Well, I want to say, that's why I love Bob, because Bob is not a Decepticon. All liberals, with the exception of Bob, are Decepticons, meaning, that in order to achieve their aim, they have to mask their ideology.

Whatever you say about the conservatives, whether you like them or you have them, they tell you what they believe in. But for a left winger to win, they have to lie. They take the sledgehammer of coercion and they slip it in a glove of compassion. That's how they get you.

At least Bob doesn't deny it. He says it's there.

The problem with the logic is that you're talking about a finite pot.

That's what happens, when you deal with redistribution, nothing is ever grown. So, you're stuck with the same stuff that you've got to keep moving around.

The conservative says grow the pot so you never have to redistribute.

BOLLING: And also, maybe you're right, Bob. Maybe redistribution isn't necessarily socialism. I would certainly say it's a big part of socialism.

Let me be fair. Maybe we don't live with the socialist president.

Maybe we have a president who simply believes in the welfare state.

PERINO: Well, I don't know what they're calling themselves. I do think it's interesting that Bob can have that honest answer here but the White House or unnamed White House officials once again are on background trying to shape a story in "The New York Times" saying, no, no, no, no, we're not for redistribution. That's not what this was about. This was about reducing the cost of health care, which, one, it is proving it isn't doing.

President Bush had -- President Bush, excuse me -- President Obama said something about trying to take away the rhetoric and strip that away and then what you have. The problem is the reality versus the fantasy on many topics, but in particular on ObamaCare. Today, this morning, they had a major delay on the Web site, about an hour and a half disruption.

Can you imagine if you are a mom or dad and you own a business and you're thinking, I want to get this taken care of before Thanksgiving. I want to enjoy the holidays with my family. Try to get on on a Monday morning and you can't even get that done.

The anxiety that is added to the people's frustration with the government is leading to pick young polls that have the president collapsing not just in competence but in trust. And I think that's where the White House has a very serious problem.

BOLLING: K.G., President Obama, you know, it smells like a pig, oinks like a pig, it looks like a pig, but President Obama wants you to believe it's a beautiful little pony. You know what I mean by that.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Well, I think pigs are beautiful. But I think this stinks. And what I don't like is dishonesty because it really offends me that they think the American people are naive and aren't going to figure this out.

And that's why they have to ban words. Don't call them terrorists.

Don't call them redistribution -- because they're trying to hide the truth.

Be frank, come out and say exactly what you believe about your ideology and what you think the direction of this country should be. Like de Blasio. He's quite frank about what he thinks should happen in New York

-- you know, redistribute of the wealth.

Remember back in 2008 with, you know, Joe the Plumber and President Obama saying "share the wealth" like that's what he really believes. Own it then.

BOLLING: Fair share, fair opportunity.

BECKEL: But, you know, I don't -- I don't believe Obama, like me or others, for a single payer plan, because they kept the insurance companies involved in this.

When I say finite growth, what is growing is the cost of health care.

That's one of the reasons people wanted health care reform, well before Obama, for good reason, because it was growing and premiums were growing.

So, at some point, there's only so much of your family budget that can go towards paying premiums. And so, you do have to, it seems to me, have to figure out a way to get some of this -- payments for your premiums and charge you more than you charge a poor guy --

BOLLING: The problem, what it was supposed to do, aka, bend the cost curve down, hasn't done any of that.

GUILFOYLE: That's the point. That was a flawed premise.

BECKEL: That's because you believe the capital system is going to do that. I don't.

BOLLING: Well, neither does the socialist system we're under now.

GUILFOYLE: Free market is better.

BOLLING: Take a listen to -- here's President Obama just an hour or so ago regarding -- listen, this guy is so disillusioned. Just listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Even as we're getting this darned Web site up to speed, it's getting better. States like California are proving the law works. People want the financial security of health insurance. And even if you're already insured, reach out to a friend or neighbor who's not and help them get covered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: So, Bob, I got to go to you again. I feel bad for you having to defend this time and time again.

But here's President Obama --

GUILFOYLE: Not that bad --

BOLLING: -- states like California, here's where the law's working.

In California, 1.1 million Americans have lost their health insurance in the same time 80,000 people have enrolled in ObamaCare. How is it working?

BECKEL: Well, first of all, you're being -- they have not lost it yet. They're supposed to -- they've given notices. It's going to be January 1, which means they have between now and January 1 to find either government subsidies to help them pay for it or another plan they can afford to do it. I don't know whether they're going to be able to do it or not.

When he talks about California, it's true. The demand in California for the information about this is enormous, as is a lot of places in the country. The problem is they can't get to the information they need to have to find out whether it works for them.

But yes, it is -- I'll get back to this. It is redistribution. It is.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: The truth, I like it.

BOLLING: -- the White House just cut you off their Christmas card list.

BECKEL: That happened a long time ago.

GUTFELD: It's not just President Obama. It's the media and President Obama who are linguistic cross-dressers.

Why do they put on a dress? Because they cannot -- they cannot expose coercive force. Nobody wants it. That's why it's coercive. So, you've got to romanticize it as it's good for everybody.

This is going -- they don't tell you that they're taking from that person to give to that one. It's just they're getting it. They're linguistic cross-dressers. I'm coining that phrase.

GUILFOYLE: I like it.

BOLLING: Any thoughts on the recent -- the sound bite he just rolled about an hour ago?

PERINO: One thing that's bothering me about it is something I think the Obama team has done from the very beginning, which is to pit people against one another.

We talk about redistribution. It's not that people who earn -- who have a good job and earn a living don't want to pay taxes. You want to pay taxes -- you want to pay taxes for systems that work.

It's -- when you talk about reform, it's actually to make things better, to see if you can reduce costs. We knew -- we were called all sorts of names for saying that this experiment was not going to work. Now that it's not working, not only were you raise to wherever you were before ObamaCare passed if you were against it, but now, you're also being accused of being selfish because you don't want to pay into a system that's not working.

They're masters at pitting Americans against one another -- very unfortunate because it's not going to solve a single problem.

GUILFOYLE: No, go ahead, Bob.

BECKEL: I was going to say -- I think it's time frankly to stop talking about the Web page if I were them. It's my piece of advice. It would be no to come out every day and try to have another -- because when they do that something else goes wrong.

But, you know, the progressive tax system is redistribution.

BOLLING: Absolutely.

BECKEL: So, if you live under a progressive tax system, what -- and you accept it, I mean, I happen to be for a flat tax. If you believe in a progressive tax system, then you believe in redistribution.

BOLLING: Or you accept it and you don't necessarily --

BECKEL: Well --

BOLLING: It needs to go as far -- the further --

BECKEL: You don't call it socialism.

BOLLING: No, and like I said, I said it -- probably it's unfair calling it socialism. I pointed to Dana, said, is it fair to say the welfare state instead of socialism? They are two different things.

BECKEL: Well, but I don't believe that the welfare -- you could say the welfare state, the tax system that's been put together. When you keep talking about 47 percent of the people don't pay taxes, 46 or 44, whatever it is. Then, that I suppose you could say that's part of the welfare system. But I don't believe that's part of the welfare system in a progressive tax structure.

GUILFOYLE: But here's the problem, it doesn't work. We're just getting more and more in debt. It's a flawed system. The framework has absolutely no support structure to it.

So, it's collapsing by the minute. And, you know, it's just really irresponsible for the rest of the future generations to sit here and take it and keep adding on to the debt and more entitlement and more programs and unfairly taxing people who are trying to work hard.

BECKEL: The vast majority of the country is in favor of raising taxes on wealthier people. They are.

GUTFELD: Well, if that's the case, why deny it?

GUILFOYLE: Everybody pay taxes.

GUTFELD: Why deny it? You've studied as a liberal progressive your entire life to be this person. And you won. So, why are you hiding it?

And why do you pretend to be something you're not? Why do you mention capitalism as a goal when you hate capitalists?

BECKEL: You know, we're not -- by the way, the left is not buying into this that you guys -- that this guy's a liberal. I mean, let's --

GUTFELD: That helps him.

BOLLING: But let's say on here. Let's stay on what's going on with ObamaCare and how the left -- Bob, you mentioned left. Let's how Al Franken, probably one of the more liberal senators, let's see what he has to say.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. AL FRANKEN (D), MINNESOTA: I think we then have to consider extending the deadline for the mandate. But let's hope that doesn't happen.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PERINO: Hope is not a great political strategy. It's not good policy. Hope, it leads to big dreams and little action on the ground.

Government doesn't do hope well.

So I think you're going to find by December -- I'm sorry, November 30th, six days from now, the Web site won't be what they thought it was going to be.

I don't know how they're going to measure 80 percent effective. How do you measure 80 percent -- 80 percent of what? How will they know?

GUILFOYLE: They'll just say it is.

PERINO: It will just go on -- this could go on in perpetuity.

GUILFOYLE: This is his campaign, right, hope and change.

BOLLING: They want us to get out of here --

GUILOFYLE: And hope --

BOLLING: Dana, we've talked about a couple of times here, the IRS.

The IRS is charged with making sure you pay the fine or tax -- I'm sorry, the tax if you don't have ObamaCare. It's 95 bucks or 1 percent of your AGI.

But the problem is --

BECKEL: Adjusted gross income.

BOLLING: They have no teeth to do it. They can't garnish your wages.

They can't take you to court.

This is one of the three legs on the three legged stool. You pull out, the thing's falling over.

BECKEL: Well, and that's -- we can't go back, if we were -- let's be honest. Let's have an honest discussion here. I don't think Obama necessarily buys into this but there are a lot of people on the left who believe there ought to be a single-payer plan, making it all straightforward.

PERINO: I don't want -- I don't want government health care --

BECKEL: I know you don't --

PERINO: -- for everybody, because government health care does not do a good job of taking care of people.

BECKEL: Do you agree that now, with the old system, that there was two brands of health care? Both for wealthier people and those for that --

PERINO: I think it will be even worse under ObamaCare. You have people that will be able to pay for doctors that they choose to have and everybody else who has to pay for doctors that are left over in the Medicare system --

GUILFOYLE: That's totally true and you won't be able to keep your doctor and your insurance -- oh, and now there's more uninsured Americans than ever. Nice job.

GUTFELD: I mean, when I moved to London, I went to sign up for the NHS. That's their single payer. Nobody -- anybody who had a salary said, you're crazy and you have these private boutiques that took care of you.

BOLLING: So, let's just have here -- by the way, that -- you want to talk about socialized medicine? You go single-payer, there it is. Pure and simple.

BECKEL: That's right. I would agree with that and I have no problem with that -- living in a society that socializes its medical system.

BOLLING: Go ahead and back over to England where Greg used to come from.

GUTFELD: Look at their teeth, Bob. It's not pretty.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLLING: We're going to have to leave it there.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Did Obama sellout -- all right, sorry.

Did President Obama sellout Israel in the nuke deal with the Iranian mullahs?

And later, you're traveling home for Thanksgiving, there's some wicked weather you're going to want to know about.

Stay tuned for that and much more tonight on "The Five".

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Welcome back to "The Five".

So, this weekend, the Obama administration announced a deal that they believe will help prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon. The reaction was, to say the least, mixed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

OBAMA: These are substantial limitations which will prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Israel is, in fact, safer than it was yesterday.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: It's an historic mistake.

It's not made the world a safer place.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: This is the opening gun of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East.

GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN, FORMER CIA HEAD: The worst, practically the worst, of all possible outcomes, because now what you have here is a nuclear capable state.

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: We have just rewarded very bad and dangerous behavior.

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS NEWS: This might be a diversionary tactic by the administration, which is desperately looking for good news.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

PERINO: All right. We're going to kick this around here.

So, Eric, even if you appreciate the goal of what the administration is trying to do, and support the concept so that the president, any president of the United States isn't put into a position of having to make that decision, but what trouble me is that everyone I respect and read and think intellectually about things that I pay attention to, they're all saying that it's a terrible deal.

Is there something in this negotiation that those people are not seeing?

BOLLING: I haven't found it, Dana. And I read almost the details of the deal that the Iranians -- basically what the deal breaks down to.

We're going to lift a lot of -- not all of them, but a lot of the financial sanctions that have frankly worked with Iran. So, in other words, they're going to be able to get petrol dollars again. They're going to be able to sell their minerals around the world and they're going to be able to get cash.

I'm trying to figure out what we got out of the deal. Basically what we got was, they're going to have to -- their 20 percent uranium, they're going to have to bring it down to 3 1/2 percent. They're not destroying it. They're just going to dilute it back down to 3 1/2 percent. So, we'll have to believe they're really doing that because 20 percent is weapons grade, 3 1/2 percent is not weapons grade.

We haven't asked them to dismantle any of the centrifuges. We haven't asked them to dismantle their big heavy water centrifuge. All these things are in place so they can create a nuclear weapon. We haven't asked them to do that.

I guess what we're getting though is U.N. inspectors in the door and hopefully they're not tricked.

PERINO: Bob, one of the things that also happened this weekend in "The New York Times" by unnamed administration officials, they were saying that the big idea here was to give Iran a taste of sanctions relief to see if Iran might agree to real concessions later.

This is an administration official admitting this. The same time John Kerry is saying this is real.

I mean, do you think they have a messaging problem?

BECKEL: Yes. Well, they have a messaging problem. Let's remember, this is not just the United States. It is five big, six powers who agreed to this. And the sanctions the United States will be lifting is about 5 percent.

What do we get out of it? One, they're not going to be able to get any new centrifuges. Now, they can cheat. I mean, the Iranians had a history of cheating.

But my question to all these people. Netanyahu's position was the same as these others speaking, and that is, they do not trust them at all.

Don't give them any breaks at all. They're going to build these things.

My answer is, in the meantime, nothing's happened and we let -- they continue to move down the road. Why can't we give six months and have inspectors in there that know what they're looking at and at least give it a shot? If it doesn't work, we can put inspections -

PERINO: Hey, you're bookie's calling you.

BOLLING: The White House.

PERINO: Yes, the White House is calling.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: I think it's are very, very positive developments.

GUILFOYLE: This is not positive if you -- oh, I'm sorry.

PERINO: No, that's all right. Go ahead.

GUILFOYLE: OK, I just don't think that it's positive at all. If you take a realistic look at it, I mean, it's put us smack-dab in the middle of the Middle East tensions, between the Sunni and Shiite wars. And now, all of a sudden, our new besties are Iran and Syria and Russia.

We're alienating our most powerful allies by making this deal.

BECKEL: Germany, France, England --

GUILFOYLE: It's a Faustian deal at best because these are people who have never honored any agreement that they've been part of it.

So, once again, we're going to be humiliated. the U.S. the country with the soft hands.

BECKEL: So, what's the alternative?

GUILFOYLE: Don't do deals with terrorists.

PERINO: Bob, you had cell phone violation. Therefore, it is Greg's turn, uninterrupted.

Greg, I'm going to ask you this question about language.

GUTFELD: Yes?

PERINO: How important is language, of being precise? Do you think it is OK for the United States, the White House, to come out and say they do not -- we're not giving them an implicit right to develop nuclear uranium?

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: But Iranians, they went home and that's what they said they got out of the deal. That they were told they now have a right. Isn't language here --

GUTFELD: Yes, it's weird. Basically, they can keep their centrifuges if they like them.

Here's what I don't understand. They can keep their centrifuges, but we can't have a Keystone pipeline? That drives me nuts, because the fact is, the best way to get out of this bizarre world that is the Middle East is to develop your own oil power, which is what the United States is.

Does this mean also that I can torment gays and treat women as crap?

Does that mean I'll get $7 billion? Because that what we just did.

It worries me that our adversaries are happier than our allies about that. I'm very suspicious when people I don't trust like "The Guardian"

call it a major achievement. When people who are bozos think it's wonderful, that scares me.

GUILFOYLE: Then you know it's wrong.

GUTFELD: The other thing is do other planets have the Middle East?

Is it just the Earth's problem? Does Neptune have a fiery cyst on its butt?

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: Israel is like your buddy who's living in the bad part of town, and you just wish would move, but he's not going to move so you've got to keep going over to the Middle East on holidays and visit him.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: The Germans are behind this 100 percent. Here's the difference --

PERINO: Yes, because they want to sell oil.

GUILFOYLE: It's all about oil.

BECKEL: It's not all about oil. It's far more complex than that, come on. This is something, if you let this go --

GUILFOYLE: I can't breathe --

BECKEL: -- they will develop a nuclear weapon. You sit there and say, OK, don't do anything with these people --

PERINO: And they will develop a nuclear weapon.

BOLLING: Can I ask about -- so if it's much bigger, what is it about?

Why did the Iranians need 1,600 centrifuges? Why did they need to enrich uranium? They have 2.5 million barrels of oil per day coming out of their ground. It's more than enough that they use here.

You know what they're doing here, they're enriching uranium and they're exporting it to countries that have a bomb and they're developed in Tehran.

BECKEL: First of all, they need more centrifuges.

BOLLING: For what?

BECKEL: Because they want to develop a nuclear weapon.

BOLLING: OK, so --

BECKEL: You want to sit back and just be mute and be, oh, let's be tough about Iran, in the meantime, they develop a nuclear weapon.

BOLLING: Here's the best way -- you want to look at the economic sanctions on Iran --

BECKEL: No, a small percentage of economic sanctions.

BOLLING: No, no, we'll lift them all. Just dismantle your centrifuges. Deal. Good-bye.

PERINO: Can I ask one other thing, because, Bob, you have been on this case for many months, on behalf of Pastor Saeed --

BECKEL: Right.

PERINO: -- who is the American who's being held in Iran, being denied medicines. And you have been the one calling on Iran to do something. The State Department actually said that they did not even bring up that he was not mentioned in the discussion.

Why would they even say that?

BECKEL: I don't know why they would say that. I suppose to preempt somebody like me and others who are going to say, why didn't you bring it up?

I mean, it seems to me that as part of this deal, I certainly would have done that. I mean, that's not a tough thing to do.

PERINO: Is that the least they could do?

GUILFOYLE: That's the least they could do, but they don't have genuine humanitarian concerns. And, by the way, wait for it within the next 12 weeks -- OK, North Korea going to fire a couple missiles again because no one --

PERINO: Is that a prediction?

GUILFOYLE: Prediction.

PERINO: Prediction right here on "The Five".

All right. Coming up, Al Sharpton finally condemns the brutal knockout games. But did he go far enough or should he do more? We've got the tape and then you can decide.

And later, "GQ" releases their list of least influential celebrities.

Bob is very excited about one of the names on the list. Who is it?

BECKEL: Which is Bob.

PERINO: Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: All right. Welcome back to "The Five".

Now, last week, we told you about the brutal knockout games that have been happening all over the country where thugs surprise unsuspecting victims and punch them, trying to knock them out. Now, many people have called on African-American leaders to condemn the brutal game. Since much of the violence is black on white crime.

Now, this weekend, Al Sharpton finally broke his silence about the deadly attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: This kind of behavior is deplorable and must be condemned by all of us. If somebody was running around talking about knocking out blacks, we would not be silent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Well, he stopped short of calling for marches like he's done during the Trayvon Martin case. But did he go far enough?

The fact he brought it up, was that sufficient? Or should he have done something further or maybe sooner, Bob?

BECKEL: Well, I think -- the two statements that he made, they were just fine. I mean, I think he made that point. If it was -- he said, if it was white on black, we would be talking about it. Yes, he might not have call for marches but I think that he finally came out and did this.

It was the right thing to do.

Now, the next step is I'd like to see the ministers of the pulpits do it. I think that Al Sharpton is an important person to come out with this.

GUILFOYLE: OK, so Bob is happy and satisfied.

BOLLING: I'm trying to figure out why we only talk about these things when it's black on white or white on black. Like Al Sharpton said, if it was white on black crime we'll be talking -- how about it's a bad thing?

How about it's an evil practice. People should condemn it across the board.

BECKEL: Yes, but we been calling for Sharpton to do this and now he's doing it. So, I mean --

BOLLING: OK, fair enough.

GUILFOYLE: Bolling, did you call him?

BOLLING: I did. I called his office --

GUILFOYLE: So, tell me again that story.

BOLLING: He was too busy to talk to me because he was very busy, but don't worry, there was a violinist that was going to condemn it that night.

That was Friday night. I guess he finally got to some way he condemned.

I'm just trying to figure out, you know, what is this? By the way, they call it polar bear hunting. I didn't know that like a couple of days ago when we first talked about it. I wasn't sure if it was black on white crime, but apparently it is. So, now it's called polar bear hunting. Wow.

GUTFELD: Did you know if it was actual polar bears, the left would be going crazy. You'd have PETA going nuts.

But, no, they mean white people. That's OK.

PERINO: They can't find them because they're all drowning in the arctic.

GUTFELD: They're stuck on ice. Oh, please don't punch me.

BECKEL: Actually they are, you know.

GUTFELD: No, there are more polar bears now than there have been in

20 years. I have to say, you know, as somebody who I despise Al Sharpton, ever since the Tawana Brawley stuff and the Crown Heights stuff. He's been responsible in some really ghastly deeds that he's gotten away with.

At least this is a start. Shows us how desperate we are, though, that we're happy that Al Sharpton finally said something. It had a lot to do with Bob calling him out. I think it's good.

But it shouldn't just be him. They should be more black leaders and they should be focusing on gangs specifically. Not just this.

I don't know if it's a game. I don't like calling it a game.

BECKEL: It's not a game.

GUILFOYLE: It's a crime.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: That's just an educated guess.

GUILFOYLE: Dana?

PERINO: I think the problem is that -- who will these criminals listen to? Al Sharpton doesn't carry the kind of influence that he used to have. The ministers don't hardly have anybody in their pews to talk to.

So who is it that could actually talk to them? Is it through tough love or is it through --

GUTFELD: Glenn Beck.

PERINO: Yes, who are they going to listen, Greg Gutfeld?

GUTFELD: No.

PERINO: I think you have to start early on in childhood --

GUTFELD: Well, when there's no family structure --

PERINO: Who's going to do it?

GUILFOYLE: Where are the fathers?

BOLLING: Let's not forget. President Obama said if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin.

GUILFOYLE: You'd like him to talk about it?

BOLLING: Why not?

GUILFOYLE: You said --

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: My point was going to be I think that the -- that President Obama -- I'm not asking him because -- not to get involved in every little

-- I shouldn't say this is a little fight. Is there a point in which President Obama can exert some influence where other black leaders like Al Sharpton, doesn't have that kind of pull with younger people anymore?

BECKEL: But, you know, the other thing we don't do, it's not violence like this, but who speak, out in the white community about following blacks in stores when they go to shop?

GUILFOYLE: Can I talk about another case --

GUTFELD: I'd rather be followed around in a shop than punched randomly.

GUILFOYLE: OK, I want to give you an update, too, because remember, we covered this a lot, it was all over the media. Speaking of crime, it was the accusations, false accusation, as it turns out, made by Crystal Mangum against the Duke lacrosse players. The coach was fired, players suspended, their lives ruined.

Well, she's actually been convicted of second degree murder. She stabbed her boyfriend to death and is looking at about the 18 years behind bars, Greg.

You want to talk about --

GUTFELD: Oh, no, it's just -- I'm just curious where everybody was that we're busy indicting these lacrosse players. I mean, Nancy Grace, that corpse-chasing pumpkin in a fright wig, practically indicted these guys every day. Where is she now?

Remember, the Duke faculty guys that were like -- using this to denounce sexism and racism on campus, where are they? Where's Michael Nifong? He got disbarred over this I believe.

So, where are all these people now that -- Crystal Mangum is now going to jail for murder?

GUILFOYLE: OK, well, I worked with Nancy Grace, she's a nice lady.

She's --

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: -- Zimmerman's girlfriend called him a monster, where are we then?

GUTFELD: That's a good point actually, I mean, we have said this --

PERINO: Nancy Grace was all over that story.

GUTFELD: We have said that Zimmerman is a tool. I think, you know, we didn't lionize him, did we?

GUILFOYLE: Greg, I mean, Eric, anything?

BOLLING: No, I'm good.

GUILFOYLE: He's talking in my ear. It freaks me out with his analogy. Go ahead.

BOLLING: No, I'm good, I'm good.

GUILFOYLE: You got nothing on this?

BOLLING: No, I'm good.

GUTFELD: Why? Did you know Crystal?

BOLLING: No, no. I went Duke, though. I'll excuse myself.

GUTFELD: You went to Duke?

BOLLING: I did.

PERINO: For a party?

BOLLING: No.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: Coming up -- we're going to get that during the commercial break. But a rapper named Macklemore gets into the racial profiling debate at last night's American Music Awards. But does he have a clue about what it takes to be a cop? Not so much.

That debate is next on "The Five".

(COPMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER FORECAST)

GUTFELD: The headline from "USA Today" says it all, Macklemore proves he's an artist with a conscious. If you don't know who he is, Macklemore is a rapper looking to extend his 15 minutes of fame into 20.

He did this by using last night's American Music Awards to condemn racial profiling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKLEMORE, RAPPER: It is a fact that we are in Florida tonight accepting this award, I want to acknowledge Trayvon Martin and the hundreds and hundreds of kids each year that are dying due to racial profiling, and the violence that follows it. This is really happening. These are our friends, our neighbors, our peers and our fans, and it's time that we look out for the youth and fight against racism and the laws that protect it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Hundreds. Apparently he's a bit behind in the news but at least he knows how to kneel before the altar of political correctness.

Remember when artists would say stuff that upset their peers? This is the ongoing depth of authentic rebellion, as yet another edgy artist echoes the shared assumptions of the shiny sheep around him.

Meanwhile, gutsier voices Lupe Fiasco and R.A. the Rugged Man speak the unspeakable truths. No wonder they aren't at the AMAs. They'd scare these impostors.

But let's look at the Mack's facts. Hundreds died at the hands of profiling? I don't know where he gets that number.

What I think he's probably angry is at stop and frisk, which has been called profiling as it prevents deaths by getting illegal guns off the street. Ray Kelly has saved more minority lives, thousands at a minimum, than any posturing rapper could in 20 lifetimes.

If Mack had real gut, he would condemn the gang violence that's claimed many, many more blacks than an army of Zimmerman's ever could. But that would take real courage, something that doesn't pay in pop culture.

Better to mirror your peers. It's easier to get headlines and it pays for the coke.

Yes, it's true.

Kimberly, there are no true rebels in pop music anymore. They just say the same thing over and over again.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, because they have the script. They have the popular script, like, if you say this, people well like you. They want to be popular. They want to be part of the cool set but without doing their background research or thinking independently for themselves.

That's what he did. Who is he kidding? What was that horrible leopard coat he was wearing? It was disgusting.

GUTFELD: Hey, Bob. Last night, Katy Perry performed one of her hit songs and she was dressed as a geisha. Or like this. And there are people that find this to be racist.

Have we lost our minds? Is this more like a salute?

BECKEL: On that we are. But anybody who believes there's not racial profiling in this country of blacks has lost their minds.

GUTFELD: Oh, way to avoid the question.

BECKEL: The geisha, I agree, I agree. I don't believe that's racial profiling or racist. But I just he idea that hundreds, that number is inaccurate obviously. But the idea that racial profiling is does not exist in this country is just nuts.

GUTFELD: I'd say that it probably exists but I don't think hundreds of people are dying.

BECKEL: I said that, I agree with that.

GUTFELD: Eric?

BOLLING: So, I'm watching the AMAs and waiting for "Homeland" to come on and it's a great show so far and, you know, the best hip-hop album comes up and Macklemore wins. Oh, look, look, a white guy wins a rap and hip hop, this is really cool, and then he goes there.

And then does this Trayvon Martin tribute which seemed so out of place. It was just quirky and awkward. I guess Kimberly's right saying he's just looking for a little bit of -- I like you. You must be like -- I like you. It was out of place.

GUTFELD: You know, Dana, as a consummate rapper and hip-hop aficionado, are you willing to overlook this predictable nature from Macklemore and still appreciate his art?

PERINO: I was surprised, given how much I know about rap, that I'd never heard of this guy in my life.

GUTFELD: (INAUDIBLE)

PERINO: And Rugged R.A. Man, R.A. Rugged Man.

GUTFELD: R.A. the Rugged Man.

PERINO: I saw him on "RED EYE."

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: I thought he was great. But does this guy sing about sunshine, rainbows and unicorns? I'm sure we would not find anything misogynist in his lyrics ever. I'm sure that Macklemore sings all about sunshine and light.

GUTFELD: I don't know, I've never listened to him.

All right, coming up.

BOLLING: "Thrift Shop," you've heard that.

GUTFELD: No, I haven't.

PERINO: Sing it. Come on, come on.

BOLLING: I give him credit for that.

PERINO: You got to go to the thrift shop --

GUTFELD: Yes, that's exactly how it goes. Well done.

GUTFELD: Just like that.

BOLLING: I got $20 in my pocket --

BECKEL: OK, let's just go. Keep you were day jobs right here at "The Five".

GUTFELD: What do Dennis Rodman, and Anthony Weiner and Miley Cyrus have in common? They're not going to Bob's Thanksgiving feast, but they did make "GQ's" least influential list for 2013.

What is Weiner doing right there? It seems like he's a little constipated.

And some other losers made the list too. You're going to be surprised who made the cut. Next on "The Five".

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECKEL: "GQ's" out with their list of 25th least influential people.

Counting down from the top five, in fifth place, Pope Benedict, which I don't get. I think he's doing [SIC] a good job. Coming in fourth place, Justin Bieber; in third, Anthony Weiner; second place, Paula Deen; and the big winner at No. 1, Dennis Rodman. Here's my favorite. Coming in at sixth place, Miley Cyrus. She should have been in first.

What do you think?

BOLLING: I'm looking over the list. You mentioned a couple of them.

I have a couple issues with it. They say President Obama and Edward Snowden, I would disagree with those, whether you like them or not.

They're definitely not the least influential, I would say. So does any of the five not on this list make us not one of the least influential people of 2013?

BECKEL: I guess if "CQ" -- "GQ" does it all, whatever it is?

GUTFELD: That's the least influential is "GQ," calling somebody least influential.

GUILFOYLE: Are there any magazines that you like or only the ones that you used to run?

GUTFELD: I'm just saying it sucks. The poor man's "Details." Them calling least influential is like Dana calling me short.

GUILFOYLE: I like "GQ." One time they threw me a party.

GUTFELD: OK. That's all they do. Their perfume inserts and beta males that haven't shaved.

BECKEL: Dana, your buddy Dennis Rodman is on that. Does that surprise you that he's right up there?

PERINO: I'm not surprised at all that he's on there. I was looking at the list. I think overall, Hollywood and entertainers are more -- are less influential than they used to be, but with some exceptions. And the exceptions, I think, are in country music. And I'm not saying that because I'm a fan. I actually think if you look across pop culture, I've got some pictures made, I think, of Blake Shelton, Miranda Lambert, Brad Paisley, and Carrie Underwood. I think they're good influences. It's a part of the country that we don't talk about a lot of the time, because people just get along with their business, work hard, and they're not causing all sorts of trouble. Those people, I think, are more influential.

BECKEL: Greg's with you on this by the way.

PERINO: I can tell. He doesn't give me...

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: ... what I think. I think they're -- they're being kind of haters here. Why do they have to drag down Will Smith by saying Will Smith and his family? I don't -- I think this is the list of -- they think who shouldn't matter. Who -- you know, like Pope Benedict, why are they putting him on there? And Pope Francis...

GUTFELD: It's "GQ," nobody reads "GQ."

PERINO: Apparently, some of our producers do.

GUTFELD: They do this to get on shows like this.

GUILFOYLE: There's people on there that I think are influential. I mean, I don't know why...

BECKEL: You know, it doesn't matter who I love that wears the weirdest outfits in the world is Sean (ph), our producer. Sean (ph) gets his stuff all out of "GQ." I mean, look at him. It's just like, you know...

PERINO: And at the thrift shop.

BECKEL: At the thrift shop, exactly.

GUILFOYLE: Wait, Sean (ph) -- Sean (ph) shops at the Thrift Shop. Is that true?

BOLLING: True. True story.

GUILFOYLE: How edgy.

GUTFELD: By the way, you know...

GUILFOYLE: Sean's (ph) Irish and Puerto Rican.

GUTFELD: Pop culture does have -- a lot of these people actually have influence, more influence than we do, because they exist in pop culture.

And that's where the young minds are that they are polluting.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Whoa!

BECKEL: "One More Thing" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: All right. Time for "One More Thing." K.G., kick it off, please.

GUILFOYLE: OK. So as a former prosecutor, I've served on death penalty panels in Los Angeles district attorney's office. And I think there's a really provocative, interesting book. Wherever you find yourself on the spectrum of supporting death penalty, if you're for justice, you should read this book. And it's really illuminating. It's called "The Death of Punishment: Searching for Justice." Can you see it right there?

BOLLING: Great holiday book.

GUILFOYLE: "... Among the worst of the Worst." I'm sorry. You know, I tried. You've got to wait for a right time to bring up something, but this is important if you care about justice in this country and perhaps the death of punishment, as I see it.

BECKEL: If you care about justice, you won't have the death penalty.

GUILFOYLE: Robert -- Robert Blecker, a professor at New York Law School, has written it. It's excellent. I highly recommend it.

BOLLING: Very good. Bobby.

BECKEL: I mentioned this. We talked about the Iranian nuclear discussions. Once again, the big powers did not mention, the United States included, Saaed Abedini, who's the pastor who's held in prison in Iran.

It's not just him. A lot of others are.

But more importantly, churches continue to be burned. Christians continue to be killed. People getting maimed, including children. When, oh when, are you all in the Muslim faith going to step forward and say that yours is a faith that takes into account that you don't kill innocent children, women? But you don't. And you won't say anything about it, because you're cowards or you believe it.

BOLLING: And the cowards didn't even negotiate that when they were negotiating their -- their treaty with Iran.

All right. I'll go next. Last night I had this huge dilemma:

"Homeland," "Walking Dead" and a big Sunday night football game all at the same time. So what do you do? Dana, we DVR'd "The Walking Dead" and we watched "Homeland," and we went back and forth to the football game. And you like I, I think were surprised...

PERINO: I went to bed.

BOLLING: At 24-nothing at halftime, I thought the Broncos had it.

PERINO: That's why I went to sleep.

BOLLING: I stayed on "Homeland."

GUILFOYLE: It ain't over till it's over.

PERINO: But I found out that they lost.

How did that happen?

BOLLING: Wow. That's all I go. Go ahead, you're up.

PERINO: OK. I did have dreams of my five, but I'm not going to say it, because I have something to promote. I never get something to promote.

GUILFOYLE: Yay.

PERINO: I'm going to be -- I'm hosting for Greta tonight. And I have some great people on: Pat Buchanan, Byron York, Charles Krauthammer. And the -- Israel's ambassador to the U.N. is going to be on to talk about...

BECKEL: Where's the liberal on that show with you?

PERINO: In spirit.

GUILFOYLE: Nice, as they should be.

GUTFELD: Are you suggesting we kill all liberals?

GUILFOYLE: I didn't say that.

GUTFELD: I would have agreed. Oh, I'm kidding. I'm next. I hate these people!

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God, your eyes are red.

GUTFELD: Today, Lifetime channel, the network has apparently run out of contemporary crazy female murderers. I think they've run through everyone. Because now they are doing a Lizzie Borden movie with Christina Ricci. They have to go back...

GUILFOYLE: Come on. Come on.

GUTFELD: ... 150 years to find another murderous female. Remember, she took an ax and killed her parents.

BOLLING: I thought she kicked a cow.

GUTFELD: No, no. That Chicago fire lady?

Anyway, this network is amazing. They make so money off crazy female murderers.

BOLLING: And female alcoholics, female gambling addicts.

GUILFOYLE: Female serial killers.

BECKEL: That sounds like some of my girlfriends.

GUTFELD: It should be called the Bob Beckel Dating Network.

GUILFOYLE: Female killers, I don't think.

BOLLING: Don't forget to DVR this show so you never, ever miss an episode. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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