Bill Cassidy on runoff victory over Mary Landrieu; Rush Limbaugh talks race relations

Written by Chris Wallace / Published December 07, 2014 / Fox News Sunday

Special Guests: Bill Cassidy, Rush Limbaugh, Gov. Bobby Jindal

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," December 7, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHRIS WALLACE, ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.

Another Republican pickup in the Senate. We'll have an exclusive interview with Bill Cassidy fresh off his runoff victory over Mary Landrieu.

And protests over race and justice sweep the nation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(CHANTING)

WALLACE: We'll discuss the latest decision not to indict a white police officer in the death of an unarmed black man with one of the most influential voices in American media, conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh.

And will Republicans use the power of the purse to take a hard line against President Obama's executive orders?

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The president has thumbed his nose at the American people with his actions on immigration.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: If you shut down the government, you go too far, it becomes about us. And the last time we did this, it didn't work out too well for us.

WALLACE: Rush Limbaugh -- it's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.

Then, a U.S. hostage is killed by Al Qaeda during a failed rescue mission. But Hillary Clinton says smart power is showing respect for America's enemies.

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Trying to understand it insofar as psychologically possible empathize with their perspective and point of view.

WALLACE: Our Sunday panel discusses her controversial comments.

Plus, Republican presidential hopefuls begin to organize. We'll talk with Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal about his 2016 aspirations.

All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And hello again from Fox News in Washington.

First, some breaking news -- Republicans picked up their ninth Senate seat last night in Louisiana. Congressman Bill Cassidy swamped incumbent Democrat Mary Landrieu in a runoff election, bringing the new GOP Senate majority to 54 seats.

Here's how Senator Landrieu reacted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARY LANDRIEU (D), LOUISIANA: The people of our state have spoken, and while we were working and hoping and praying for a different outcome, I'm so proud that our campaign was open and accessible to the voters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Joining us now from Baton Rouge, the newest member of the Republican way, Bill Cassidy.

And Senator-elect, congratulations and welcome to "Fox News Sunday."

REP. BILL CASSIDY (R), LOUISIANA SENATOR-ELECT: Thank you, Chris. Thank you for having me.

WALLACE: Your big issue in this campaign was the fact that Mary Landrieu voted with Barack Obama 97 percent of the time. What do you think is the message that Louisiana voters sent last night?

CASSIDY: It is the exclamation mark on the message the American people sent on November the 4th. The American people do not like the agenda that Barack Obama has staked out for our country, nor do they like the effects of these policies, for example, Obamacare, which continues to punish particularly low-wage workers. We were the exclamation mark on a message all of America has sent.

WALLACE: With your victory, and this is really an amazing turnabout, the Democratic Party will now not have a single senator, governor, or state legislature in the Deep South, all the way from the Carolinas to your state of Louisiana. Not one.

And I guess the question is, what's the Democratic Party's problem?

CASSIDY: We -- if there's one party for the working person right now, it's the Republican Party. It's the Republican Party that's pushing the use of U.S. natural resources to create American jobs. It is a Democratic Party trying to kill those jobs.

So, for example, in the coal industry, they clearly have a war on coal. In the oil and gas industry, Barack Obama continues to impede our jobs with regulations.

We are a working family region. The Republican Party is the party of the working family.

WALLACE: All right. Now, as I say, you're senator-elect. In January, you become a senator. What's your top priority, sir?

CASSIDY: Yes, I'm doc. I've been working in the public hospital system for 25 years. Clearly, the health care law, the Obamacare, is pounding the American people. As one woman said a little bit of a TMI conversation at first, 56 years old, speaking of herself, no womb and no children, yet I'm paying for obstetrical services and pediatric dentistry and I'm paying $400 more a month with a $6,000 deductible.

People are upset about this law. We must do something about it.

WALLACE: But can you do anything with Barack Obama still in the White House, sir?

CASSIDY: A couple of things about that.

Clearly, the Supreme Court is considering a case as to whether or not the administration is breaking law in terms of how they give subsidies. A plain reading of the law suggests they are. If the Supreme Court rules that the administration is breaking the law, it crashes in 30 some-odd states.

Secondly, when you have Democrats like Harkin and Schumer saying that passing the law was a mistake, you also realize there's a political dynamic building. The American people want something different.

WALLACE: You strongly oppose, along with a lot of other Republicans, the executive action that President Obama took that will defer deportation for millions of people in this country illegally. It looks now like the plans by Republican leaders in both the House and the Senate is they will fund the entire government through next September but only fund the Department of Homeland Security, which handles immigration, until either February or March.

Are you OK with that?

CASSIDY: I've been focused on December the 6th. On the face of it, I am. We have to consider this issue from a position of strength. Once Republicans take the Senate, we'll be in a position of strength.

But allow me to look at it a little more carefully now that my election is over.

WALLACE: Finally, where do you put yourself on the spectrum of Republicans in the Senate? If on one end, you've got Mitch McConnell, who talks about seeking compromise and at the other end you've got Ted Cruz, who takes a much harder line -- who will you be closer to in your approach?

CASSIDY: I represent the people of Louisiana. And it is their concern which is uppermost.

I take my lead from the interests of my state and the interests of our country. I don't necessarily align with myself with anybody. And it sounds like campaign rhetoric, it is from the heart. I am here to represent the people of Louisiana, not to align with another senator.

WALLACE: Senator-elect Cassidy, again, congratulations. Thank you. Thanks for talking with us and we'll see you here in Washington.

CASSIDY: Thank you, Chris.

WALLACE: And we'll speak with governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, later in the program.

But, first, love him or hate him, he's the king of conservative talk radio. Twenty million people listen to him each week on close to 600 stations across the country.

Rush Limbaugh joins us now from his EIB Studio in Florida.

Rush, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

RUSH LIMBAUGH, HOST, THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW: I think it's been since 2009 I was here. So, it's great to be back, Chris. Thank you for having me.

WALLACE: Well, we're delighted to have you.

Let's start with the protests across the country in the wake of the grand jury decisions not to indict those police officers. Do you think that those demonstrators have a legitimate beef with police and prosecutors?

LIMBAUGH: I think that there is a grievance politics in this country that's tearing the country apart, Chris. I think what happens in the grand jury in Ferguson, Missouri, and what happens here in Staten Island does not warrant this because the grand jury rendered a correct verdict in Ferguson.

New York is a little bit different, but this would have a happened I think no matter what the grand jury in Ferguson said.

I think the real thing to note here is that this is tearing the country apart. It is literally ripping our fabric apart. And the president of the United States, one thing about him, he's a great orator. You put the right words on the teleprompter and this man can deliver soaring, inspiring rhetoric. I ask you to remember his 2008 campaign in front of the Styrofoam columns at Denver during the convention speech. If he wants to, he can inspire. And I think it's called for in this situation.

This is -- this is not good for the country, what's happening here, because it isn't I don't think full-fledged legitimate. It's not based on real-world grievance. It's grievance that's being amplified and made up.

The president, if you ask me, could do a lot to stop this by telling people to respect the criminal justice system. There's nothing here that's designed as they would have you believe to purposely get it wrong, to purposely screw people. It's not the case.

And presidents are supposed to be uplifting. They're supposed to be inspiring.

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: Rush, let me pick up on that because we have some sound both from President Obama and from New York City Mayor De Blasio describing the situation. Here they are. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is an American problem. When anybody in this country is not being treated equally under the law, that's a problem, and it's my job as president to help solve it.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: Our police are here to protect us, and we honor that. At the same time, there's a history we have to overcome because with so many of our young people, there's a fair. And for so many of our families, there's a fear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: I want you to react to that, Rush. But I want to put into that and one of the things that critics and some of the demonstrators cite is, for instance, that black drivers who are stopped at -- for a traffic stop are three times likely to be searched as white drivers. So what do you think of them as this perception of unfairness in the criminal justice system?

LIMBAUGH: I don't think that things are rosy and perfect in America, but to say that they're no better, as the mayor of New York said, that's absurd. We've made all kinds of efforts to improve race relations in this country. The 1964 Civil Rights Act, affirmative action, we have bent over backwards.

Is it all perfect? No, it's not. But there's no acknowledgment of any progress, Chris. If you listen to these people, the president, the mayor of New York, you would think it's 200 years ago. You would think we haven't even started working on these problems, and that's not true.

And I think for the president to promote this division as he just did in that clip that you said, and mischaracterize what happened here -- he's talking in large part about Ferguson and what he described did not happen in Ferguson, and what most of the media is describing did not happen in Ferguson, Missouri. There was no "hands up, don't shoot." It didn't happen. And that's tearing this country apart.

We have people to whom the truth is relative. And they're using whatever power they have to try to redefine the truth for the advance of their own political agenda. And it's just not productive. And the president taking sides in this in a way that further divides the country I find reprehensible and very unfortunate.

WALLACE: Let's talk, though, about -- you talk about Ferguson, and frankly I agree with you. I think that's a case where there was plenty of reasonable doubt about what Officer Wilson did.

But let's talk about the Eric Garner case, which a lot of people think is different, given, in fact, at the beginning you said that you were troubled by what happened in the Eric Garner case, the heavyset black man who was taken down in Staten Island.

LIMBAUGH: Right. WALLACE: But you now say that he was not choked, it was not a chokehold. And I guess the question I have, and I ask this with all due respect, we're friends -- what are you talking about that it's not a chokehold?

LIMBAUGH: I'm listening to experts in the police departments around the country that I know tell me it's not a chokehold. I'm listening to certain things I've read in the media quoting police officials and those who train police saying that this was not a chokehold. It might have been carotid restriction, but it was not a chokehold.

But, Chris, none of this -- this all misses the point. What was Eric Garner doing? He was selling cigarettes, loose cigarettes.

And the police in New York, because they're so eager for tax collection, what is being done here with regard to taxes and the state's desire to collect them no matter what, how many cops were descended on that situation for cigarettes? How many people smoking marijuana did the cops pass by and ignore on the way to Eric Garner? You've got $13 a carton, $13 a pack in New York City, over $6 of that is taxes. And the authorities are telling the cops, you go out and you stop that because they're so intent on collecting tax revenue.

I think the real outrage here is that an American died while the state is enforcing tax collection on cigarettes. This is just absurd. And it -- you know, people talk about the left, they want a big state, they want a powerful state. Well, here it is. You've got the take all of it.

If you want a powerful state, there's your police force acting on demands of the authorities to go out and make sure that every dime of tax is collected particularly from tobacco. Look how we stigmatize tobacco --

WALLACE: Let me --

LIMBAUGH: -- I think to the point it's so despised and reviled that a guy loses his life selling single cigarettes in New York City. It's absurd.

WALLACE: You talk about the role of the federal government. Attorney General Holder has announced federal civil rights investigations in Staten Island --

LIMBAUGH: Of course.

WALLACE: -- in Ferguson and a number of other cities. Here he is describing that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr. Warner's death is one of several recent incidents across our great country that have tested the sense of trust that must exist between law enforcement and the communities they are charged to serve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But you have on your program compared holder to the terror group Hamas and Israel when he says that the police should not be an occupying force.

Do you --

LIMBAUGH: Well --

WALLACE: How do you --

LIMBAUGH: That's how they talk.

WALLACE: Let me just ask my question. This will work better if I ask my question.

LIMBAUGH: OK.

WALLACE: Do you think there is a legitimate basis for federal civil rights investigation?

LIMBAUGH: Look, Eric Holder is the one who uses the word or the phrase "occupying force" to describe the New York PD.

That's the way this regime talks about Israel. I'm not putting these words in their mouth. I'm not the one who's saying them. But I do think we have to honestly interpret and analyze and honestly hear what they are saying.

This -- the idea that we need civil rights violations from the federal government, this is promoting the division. We need -- I hear all these civil rights leaders say, Chris, that we need to start the healing.

Nobody's doing that. There are too many people profiting off of this strife. There are too many people promoting it, too many people making a living, making money off this racial divide, not doing a thing to -- we had the first black president-elected. You know how many people voted for this guy hoping and thinking this kind of thing was over?

It's worse, Chris. It has gotten worse. And one of the reasons why -- no criticism, legitimate criticism of the president is permitted because he's African-American and it's all chalked up to racism, which nullifies critics, shuts them down. Nobody wants to be called that.

This is --

WALLACE: All right. I want to talk about --

LIMBAUGH: This is --

WALLACE: I want to switch subjects, I hate to move you along because I love listening to you, but I do want to move on to another subject.

LIMBAUGH: So do I. I do.

WALLACE: One of the reasons we wanted to talk to you is because recently you have been going, talking about criticism, you've been criticizing Fox News for some of the commentary here that says that the Republicans in Congress should not shut down the government over their opposition to the executive action on immigration that the president took.

First of all, what's wrong with the Republican plan not to shut down the government? And what would you do?

LIMBAUGH: Because, (a), it isn't a government shutdown. They shut down 15 percent, 10 percent of it? It's not a government shutdown. We're losing the language.

The government keeps running. Welfare checks keep going out. People that depend on the government get government services. It's not a shutdown.

I'll tell you what it is. It's a diversion and it's a trick.

I know time is short. Let me cut to the chase here. 2010, Republican landslide win, Democrat landslide loss. Ditto 2014.

The Democrats have been shellacked in two recent elections, and the Republicans are running around like a fool saying the American people are not going to like them if they shut down the government is absurd. Barack Obama's approval is in the 30s. This isn't about a government shutdown. This is about two elections in which the people of this country are begging the Republican people to stop this man.

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: But let me counter -- Russ, let me counter that, because I want to put up a poll which shows that after the October shutdown, October of last year over Obamacare, forgive me, let's put it up on the screen, 53 percent blamed the GOP, while 31 percent blamed President Obama. And I would argue --

LIMBAUGH: All right.

WALLACE: Let me just finish -- and I would argue that the Republicans won despite that, not because of the shutdown, and because as you say Obama had a series of disasters, whether it was the Obamacare rollout --

LIMBAUGH: I'm not -- wait, I did not say they won because of the shutdown. I'm saying it didn't hurt them.

They won a landslide election 10 months after this so-called shut -- the only thing that happened in that shutdown was Barack Obama closed the Vietnam Veterans Memorial to -- the World War II memorial, the World War II vets who for maybe the only time in their lives are going to visit it and opened it to some pro-immigration demonstrators. And shut down the White House tours and the --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: But the exit polls -- and the exit polls, and I know the Republicans won, Russ, but in the exit polls, and let's put this up on the screen --

LIMBAUGH: That does not matter?

WALLACE: Wait, wait, wait.

LIMBAUGH: You keep talking polls to me, you keep talking polls to me, and I've got the essence of a poll is an election, and I've got two of them. And we would have won the White House in 2012 if 4 million Republicans hadn't stayed home. But the idea --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: My point is they won in spite of the shutdown not because of the shutdown.

LIMBAUGH: What does it matter? They won. The point is this is a trick. I think the shutdown's a trick.

You know what? Here's what it really means, Chris, that Republicans want what Obama wants on immigration, and they are using the government shutdown as an excuse to not stop him because the truth of matter is they agree with him. Romney agrees with it, Jeb Bush agrees with it, the Chamber of Commerce agrees with it, obviously, the Republican establishment doesn't want to stop Obama on comprehensive immigration reform.

WALLACE: Do you think John Boehner and Mitch McConnell agree with that?

(CROSSTALK)

LIMBAUGH: And very conveniently, here's this government shutdowns, oh, we can't act, we can't, because they'll blame us for shutting it. They'll really be mad at us for shutting down the government. I think it's absurd.

WALLACE: All right.

LIMBAUGH: I think it's ridiculous.

And the American people are being let down here. They're voting. They're expressing their desires. They want this stuff stopped and the Republican Party is not listening.

WALLACE: All right. We're going to do a lightning round with you in the time that's left.

LIMBAUGH: All right.

WALLACE: We have just -- we just blew our entire budget. You didn't see, but there was a very exciting lightning and thunder and all kinds of stuff. We've blown our production budget for the end of the year on that. But quick questions, quick answers. That's the idea of the lightning round.

Hillary Clinton. How worried should Republicans be about Hillary Clinton as the Democratic potential Democratic nominee in 2016?

LIMBAUGH: Not very. She can't sell a book. She can't sell an auditorium. The hype finally is over.

WALLACE: That was quick.

LIMBAUGH: You said quick. You said quick.

WALLACE: OK. Good. I'm glad you're taking direction.

Barack Obama, when he last talked, I was looking at our interview from 2009, you called him a man-child who doesn't care about the country. Do you want to take any of that back?

LIMBAUGH: Right. No. I think everything I told you in 2009 has been validated. All of this that's happened has happened on purpose. It's been his strategy. It's been his agenda, and he's well into it, Chris. I mean, there's nobody stopping him. Everything he wants is pretty much getting done.

WALLACE: On the Republican side, you have been quite critical of former Florida Governor Jeb Bush. What's your problem with him?

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: What's your problem with him?

LIMBAUGH: Well --

WALLACE: And who do you like on the Republican side?

LIMBAUGH: Well, now, that's a loaded question because I can't mention everybody, I would leave some people out and make them mad.

I think Jeb -- the Republican Party is totally absorbed in this comprehensive immigration business, and Jeb is out there claiming the only way he can get nominations is somehow run against the base in the primaries. I think the Republicans have demonstrated they know how to lose the White House, and it's time to change direction, change strategy. They've got that down path. And it's not -- they're not going to win by continuing to do the same thing over and over again.

WALLACE: Finally, you have just put out the latest in your series of children's books, and I'm -- I think a lot of people may not know that you're writing children's books. It's got a great cover and there you are, "Rush Revere and the American Revolution" where Rush goes back in time with, of course, his talking horse Liberty.

LIMBAUGH: Thank you very much.

WALLACE: Why are you doing this?

LIMBAUGH: Well, it's a labor of love. Because I want young people who I don't reach on the radio to know the truth about the country. I want them to love America. I want them to know the truth of the founding, the incredible people that did it, and we want to take readers to these events, not make it cut and dry and memorization history, a time-traveling horse, a smart aleck-talking horse, Rush Revere, me, is a substitute teacher, takes students with him. It's a great vehicle because we can go to any point in American history and relive it and treat it exactly as it happened, written for 8 to 12- year-olds.

And it is just -- these three -- the third book is out now and it's dedicated to the military and problems that military people have when -- with the children of families whose parents, moms and dads, are deployed. Kids don't understand it. We address that in this book. We have a devotion and awe of the U.S. military. So, this American Revolution book is dedicated to them.

But it's all about a mission of getting the truth of the founding of this country out, why it's great, why it is exceptional. Nothing political in this book, it's just the truth. It's fun. And the reader is taken right to these events and interacts. The kids from this substitute class are taken to these events and interact with these great Americans.

It's a fun thing to do, and the reaction that we're getting from readers is beyond our expectations.

WALLACE: And not surprisingly, it's number one on "The New York Times" children's book list.

Thank you. Thank you for joining us. It's always good to talk with you. Please come back. Let's make it sooner than five years. OK?

LIMBAUGH: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And I did my best to get it in at 14 minutes. I promise I tried.

WALLACE: Listen, you can't clear your throat in 14 minutes. Thank you very much.

(LAUGHTER)

LIMBAUGH: Well, I know. That's the truth.

WALLACE: Up next, protests across the nation after the Ferguson and Staten Island grand juries decide not to indict police officers. Now, the Justice Department is conducting its own investigations, but should the feds get involved? Our Sunday group joins the conversation.

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel? Jus go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday, and we may use your question on the air.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT LYNCH, PATROLMEN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: We feel badly that there was a loss of life. But, unfortunately, Mr. Garner made a choice that day to resist arrest.

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is larger than just the police and the community. Our overall system of justice must be strengthened, and it must be made more fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: The head of the country's largest police union and Attorney General Eric Holder in the wake of a grand jury's decision not to indict a New York City police officer in the death of an unarmed black man.

And it's time now for our Sunday group: Brit Hume, Fox News senior political analyst, former Democratic Congresswoman Jane Harman, director of the Woodrow Wilson Center, syndicated columnist George Will, and FOX News political analyst Juan Williams.

So, Brit, do you think protesters have a legitimate complaint as they march across the country in arguing about police targeting minorities and about grand juries, prosecutors protecting the police?

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Perhaps, Chris, yes, but I would take issue with the term "targeting," I don't think that's been very well-established.

But, look, I don't doubt that police departments across the country could learn to deal more skillfully with the minority communities that they serve. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

On the other hand, what strikes me about this whole controversy is you hear it in the remarks of the president and in the remarks of his attorney general and others, which is the utter lack of balance in their sense of what's wrong here and what needs to be fixed. They talk a lot about police departments and the need for reform.

Do they address it all the pathologies within these African- American communities where a disproportionate amount of crime, disproportionate to the size of their presence in the population where these crimes are committed? No. Do they talk about the failing schools, the broken families and all the rest of it which contributes to these problems?

It is all on one side. They want to fix the police departments but they don't want to fix the deeper problems that exist in that -- in those communities, at least in their current discussions of the subject. And it's way, way out of balance in my judgment.

WALLACE: We asked you for questions for the panel, and we got this on Facebook from Rohn Koch, who write, "Why is it always a racial issue when these kinds of cases unfold, and why does this administration stick their noses in state affairs?"

Congresswoman Harman, how do you answer Ron? And specifically, is the Justice Department justified in launching civil rights investigations in the case of Staten Island, in the case of Ferguson, and other cities around the country?

JANE HARMAN (D-CA), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN: Well, first let me give a shout-out to Special Forces who tried heroically twice to rescue an American in Yemen.

WALLACE: We're going to be talking about that in the next segment.

HARMAN: OK. But also to the NYPD, which has kept us safe after 9/11. They were heroes along with the New York Fire Department.

I think this person who just asked the question is wrong. I think in both of these recent cases, there has been a black man who has died at the hands of white police. But I don't think we should exaggerate this.

I want to go back to something Brit said. It seems to me we should have a conversation about what the pathology of black families and other families in inner cities. And I think President Obama is perfectly suited to lead this conversation.

HUME: But he never has, has he?

HARMAN: Well, now, he should. And his administration should, too.

HUME: But you don't get a sense he's going in that direction, do you?

HARMAN: I don't know where he's going. He's given a couple good statements about this. He sent Eric Holder out.

And I think if we can have this conversation in this country, including a conversation about income inequality, this could be Obama's finest moment and I hope that he reaches for this moment and does this.

WALLACE: One of the things that I learned this week is that a civil rights investigation doesn't necessarily have to do anything with race. That it is about -- in this kind of case, it's about an officer of the state using his or her powers to violate someone's constitutional rights, in this case unreasonable seizure of their person.

George, does the Garner case, the fellow who was choked, allegedly -- it seems to be pretty clearly -- in Staten Island, does that meet that standard?

WILL: Absolutely. The viewer who suggested that the federal government is acting without warrant to intrude into a state business doesn't understand that the 14th Amendment and laws passed pursuant to that to protect emancipated African-Americans from arbitrary state power in the reconstruction South gives this the color of law. And the federal government is doing what the amendment and the laws are supposed to do, which is to, in this case, examine not whether racial discrimination was involved, but whether perhaps, for example, disproportionate force was involved. Here you have Mr. Garner accused of an utterly trivial offense that shouldn't be an offense, selling cigarettes to willing buyers. He was not a flight risk, he was not in the flight, and he was not being disrespectful. He was addressing each policemen as "officer." So, yes, this is exactly what this law was written to do.

WALLACE: But Juan, prosecutors -- I've become a law student this week -- have to meet a very high standard in these civil rights cases, which, again, don't necessarily have to do anything with law, they have to do with anybody's -- white, black, whatever -- civil rights. You have to demonstrate willfulness that the officer intended to deny, to violate in this case Mr. Garner's civil rights.

WILLIAMS: Well, it has to be intentional in the federal cases is what you're saying.

WALLACE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: And in the federal case there I think that, again, coming back to what George Will just explained to you, there was clear deprivation of your constitutional right to life and liberty. The man is dead. I don't know that they can get a conviction, if that's your thinking. But I don't think that's the job of the prosecutor. And what we've seen in the local grand juries I think has been the effort by prosecutors to cover themselves, to avoid saying I have no responsibility although the prosecutors work so closely with the police. I mean that you know, the old saying you can get a ham sandwich indicted by a grand jury. But in these cases what you see is prosecutors going before the grand jury, feeling they have to present exculpatory evidence for the defendant. They don't need to do that. They don't have to say a thing. They just have to show that there is probable -- that's all the standard is for a local grand jury -- probable cause to present a case that would go forward to a trial and be transparent.

HUME: What I want to say about that is when people say a grand jury could indict a ham sandwich, they're not saying that to praise grand juries. They're saying that because they don't think that grand juries are performing their historic role, which was to stand between willful prosecutors and unfair charges. And so what you seem to be saying is that these prosecutor, by virtue of presenting a wide range of evidence, are violating their normal function. Well, that normal function is that --

WILLIAMS: They're straying from their normal ...

WALLACE: All right.

WILLIAMS: Hang on a second. They are strained from their normal function and ...

HUME: Allowing them to perform their historic role.

WALLACE: I'm going to have to -- because we just -- it's a tight show after the Rush Limbaugh interview. I will say this, though. Scott Walker, the governor in Wisconsin, I just learned today has actually in the case -- because there has always been this question about prosecutors protecting police -- is saying that an independent group, when it's the case of a prosecutor and the police, an independent prosecutor who doesn't have to deal with the local police should try those kinds of cases and there should be a report as to the action that was taken in a police case. In any case.

HARMAN: Governor Cuomo was called on -- called for changes in the grand jury processes in New York.

WALLACE: OK, so that was a Democrat as well as a Republican. Here we go. All right. We have to take a break here. When we come back, we'll have the latest on an American hostage killed by Al Qaeda during a failed U.S. rescue mission in Yemen. And Hillary Clinton says the U.S. should empathize with its enemies. We'll find out what our Sunday group thinks about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: We're learning more about the murder of an American journalist and a South African teacher by Al Qaeda militants in Yemen during a failed U.S. rescue mission yesterday. Fox News chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge joins us now with the latest. Catherine.

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, thank you, Chris, military and U.S. government sources say a team of Navy SEALs walked nearly seven miles in darkness to a heavily fortified Al Qaeda compound in central Yemen when they came under fire. As the SEALs confronted Al Qaeda militants in the darkness, one of the terrorists apparently broke away to where the hostages were held. American journalist Luke Somers and a second hostage, now identified as a South African schoolteacher Pierre Korkie, were found alive but wounded. Both men were transported on awaiting Ospreys, Korkie died on the rescue aircraft. Somers reached the USS Makin Island, but died in surgery. The president and defense secretary approved the mission Friday morning based on new intelligence that Somers' life was in imminent danger. The second rescue attempt in ten days was monitored in real time here in Washington. As Secretary Hagel received regular updates on his flight to Kabul, Afghanistan, where he addressed reporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Luke Somers was murdered. He was taken hostage. His life was clearly in danger. Of course, have to take responsibilities for any action or inaction, or inaction that we didn't take.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HERRIDGE: U.S. government and military sources stress there was no way the hostages were wounded in crossfire. They were shot by Al Qaeda in a last desperate act. Chris?

WALLACE: Catherine, thanks for that. Now let's bring back our panel. Brit, as Catherine noted, Al Qaeda had threatened to kill this American journalist Luke Somers sometime this weekend. Any problem with President Obama ordering this raid given the fact that both of the hostages died?

HUME: Well, it's regrettable that both of the hostages died, and there's some reports have indicated that the South African hostage was going to be released, and so that makes that particularly tragic. But I give the president credit for trying in these instances. I think it was worth a try regardless of the outcome. They had reason to believe that Somers was about to be killed anyway so, why not. And it also puts these terrorists on notice that at any given moment the SEALs may be coming, which may be -- have some deterrent effect on them. So I say good, worth a try.

WALLACE: Juan, as Brit just discussed and Catherine, this is complicated by the fact that there have been negotiations going on for the South African teacher and the negotiators claim that he was supposed to be released today. Your thoughts.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I don't think you pay ransom for these people. I think that would simply encourage more kidnapping. Now, the critics can say, look this is the third failed attempt at rescues that we've had in the last six months. Don't forget the James Foley situation.

WALLACE: ISIS in Syria.

HUME: Correct.

WALLACE: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: But I think if you look at that and then you consider, for example, what happened with Bowe Bergdahl where we had a swap, I don't think the critics can be consistent in saying oh, we don't like that you would trade prisoners to get an American back, but on the other hand when you try to rescue Americans we're going to say that you are making a mistake. It has to be consistent, and I agree with Brit Hume. I think you have to say the president knew that this man's life was in danger and made an attempt to save him and we should say that's the right move for the American government.

WALLACE: Before the raid, Hillary Clinton was talking this week about the use of smart power in American foreign policy, and here was part of her explanation of smart power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON: Showing respect even for one's enemies, trying to understand and insofar as psychologically possible empathize with their perspective and point of view, helping to define the problems to determine the solutions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Congresswoman Harman, do we need to respect our enemies and to empathize with their point of view?

HARMAN: Well, I think we need to respect those who live in the Middle East who are devout Muslims and who think that our policies are wrong. No, I don't think we have to respect members of terror groups ever. I think we have to have harsh policies against them. And I just want to add one more thing about the hostage effort, and that is the Yemeni government cooperated with us in building a coalition of people who don't have identical views, respecting the people in that coalition is going to be the way we stop this horrible aggression on the American ...-

WALLACE: But I want to go back to Hillary Clinton, I mean because we're not -- when she's talking about our enemies she's not talking about people who disagree with us. She's talking about Al Qaeda.

HARMAN: No, I ...

WALLACE: She's talking about -- if I may, talking about ISIS. And she said that we need to respect them, show respect even for one's enemies, empathize with their perspective. Do we need to empathize with ISIS?

HARMAN: I take issue with the word enemies. I think we have to respect people with different points of view.

WALLACE: I'm not saying. She said it.

HARMAN: In the Middle East in order to win the argument with them.

WALLACE: What are you saying?

HARMAN: I don't exactly know what she was saying.

HUME: What's the problem -- (INAUDIBLE)? The enemies, there's no doubt who that is.

HARMAN: But, Brit, everybody in the Middle East and everybody in these areas is not an enemy.

WALLACE: She's not saying that. Listen to what she said.

HARMAN: Well, I guess I don't understand what she meant by enemy. I do understand what she meant about respect. And I think respect is a key to winning ...

WALLACE: The enemies ...

HARMAN: To winning.

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: As one assumes that she meant what she says, that she meant, you know, groups like ISIS, groups like Al Qaeda which slaughter Americans, do we need to empathize with them.

HARMAN: Well, let me make one more try. Let me at least say from my point of view these people are prospective enemies if we don't show respect and an understanding for their point of view. And I have to believe that that's what she meant.

WALLACE: George?

WILL: Let me try to say this as politely as possible. The English language is not Hillary Clinton's close friend. She's just not a fluent speaker. And we're going to have a lot of experience with these -- we've had it already, we're going to have a lot more going forward. She thinks -- what she was saying was a crashing banality in the most artless way possible, she's saying we ought to try and understand the other guy, get inside his mind, understand his motivation. Fine, that's how you say it. Instead she had to talk about a kind of gaseous new-age rhetoric about respect and empathy and all of this. She was saying nothing particularly controversial, but she was saying it in an unfortunate way.

HUME: She meant to say something uncontroversial and ended up saying something highly controversial, just as she did a few weeks ago when she said you know, don't let anybody tell you that it's businesses and corporations that create jobs. And, you know, they had to rush the fire brigade out to try to put out the storm that was created by that inane comment. Palpably incorrect. And, you know, she does have a history, as George points out here, and, you know, she's been around a long time. You think she'd be sharper than this as a candidate, but so far she's not.

HARMAN: But she isn't a candidate yet.

WALLACE: Briefly, what were you going to say Congresswoman?

HARMAN: I said she isn't a candidate yet. It's a tough line of work like this line of work. Every word is analyzed. I think she could have stated that more artfully. I totally agree with George, and I'm proud of George for saying that.

WILLIAMS: Well, I just think the high level of scrutiny, though, is attached in part because she is such a titan right now on the political stage, and I think the right doesn't have anybody who can compete with her. And so every word that that she says now is swatted and batted around.

WALLACE: Do you think we need to empathize with our enemies? Yes or no?

WILLIAMS: Enemies? No. But I think you need to empathize and understand the source for those people who join Al Qaeda.

WALLACE: She said empathize with the enemies.

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm just telling, why are we having this conversation, Chris, because she's Hillary Clinton and she's, you know, in position to be the next president. (LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: That's right.

WILLIAMS: I just kind of, you know.

HARMAN: Fox News isn't our enemy, right?

WALLACE: Not mine.

HARMAN: Hers.

WALLACE: And you are here, so I don't ...

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: Someone is not here (INAUDIBLE). All right, panel. We have to take a break here. When we come back, we'll have the latest on the American hostage -- oh, you know what, I got the wrong page here. I better read the teleprompter. Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal is here. We'll ask him whether he'll run for president in 2016.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Now you can connect with "Fox News Sunday" on Facebook and Twitter. Be sure to check our exclusive material online at Facebook. And share it with other Fox fans. And tweet us at Fox News Sunday using hashtag FNS. Be part of the discussion. And weigh in on the action every "Fox News Sunday."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: The GOP presidential fill for 2016 is wide open. There are now at least two dozen -- two dozen potential serious candidates who say they're at least considering a campaign. Joining us now and clearly exploring his options, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal. Governor, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL, (R) LOUISIANA: Thank you for having me.

WALLACE: Good to have you here in D.C. Well, you saw, we just put up that graphic of Republican potential candidates. You have a strong record as a governor. You have cut the size of government. You have cut taxes. You have strong economic growth. But there are some other governors who can say the same thing, whether it's Kasich of Ohio or Walker of Wisconsin or Christie of New Jersey. I guess the question I have for you is how do you stand out from that? What makes you better than those other guys?

JINDAL: Chris, two things. One, I absolutely agree we have some great governors and I prefer governors. have done things, we cut budgets. We have now a former U.S. senator who had never run anything in the White House. Governors have executive experience. If I were to decide a run, this election to me is all about how do we restore the American dream for our children and grandchildren. This president, he has believed in bigger government, redistribution, fewer opportunities, more debt, more tax, and more borrowing.

WALLACE: But forgive me. Walker, Kasich, and Christie could say the same thing. What makes you stand out?

JINDAL: Well, look, you're right. Like many other governors we've done great things in our state, we've cut our budget by 26 percent, we've got -- we've grown our private sector economy at top five job creating in the country. We reformed educations. We've got statewide school choice. But it's more than just what we've done in Louisiana. If I were to decide to run I think I've got a unique perspective. My parents came here over 40 years ago in search of the American dream. My brother and I have lived the American dream. We've taken on big challenges. We've taken on the infringed interests. I think the American people are looking for big change in Washington, D.C., not small change, big change.

WALLACE: All right. After the Republican defeat in 2012, you famously said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JINDAL: We've got to stop being the stupid party. And I'm serious. It's time for a new Republican Party that talks like adults.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: You said that Republicans cannot be seen as the party that protects the rich and that you have to fight for every vote. So, my question is, how have Republicans in the last two years reached out specifically -- and I don't want you to go into great detail -- but to Hispanics and to single women and to young voters where you haven't done so well?

JINDAL: Look, I'd say just three quick examples. One, school choice education reform. Kids growing up in poor neighborhoods are often trapped in failing schools. We're reaching out saying we're an aspirational party and an aspirational country. Circumstances of your birth shouldn't determine your outcomes as an adult. Secondly, after that detailed funds (ph), I actually replaced, repeal and replace Obamacare with plans to bring down the costs of health care for middle class and other working families. And then finally, third, energy. We believe in energy independence through the fracking revolution. We can create a million good paying manufacturing jobs, median household income would go up seven percent. No federal spending and borrowing. Having a good-paying blue-collar jobs with benefits. Three examples where conservative policies help working families in America.

WALLACE: All right. As you know, it's a horse race. I want to put up the latest real clear politics average of recent polls about Republicans for 2016. It shows Jeb Bush leading the Republican field at this point. Obviously very early with 14 percent. Paul Ryan second, Christie third. You're back in 11th place, forgive me, at 2.8 percent. Realistically, how do you come from so far behind? JINDAL: Chris, look, this -- if I were to decide to run it wouldn't be about poll numbers. I was at less than two percent when I first ran for governor, I was within the margin of error. The reality is, as we've taken on big generational changes. We have transformed our state. For 25 years we were losing people. Six years in a row now we have more people moving into the state. Took ten charity hospitals. This is the third rail in Louisiana politics, turned them into public/private partnerships. Substantially, not only cut the size of government 26 percent, but have grown the private sector economy. This is not about politicians who are popular by kissing babies and cutting ribbons. This election is going to be about big ideas and big change.

WALLACE: OK, but you mentioned Louisiana. Let's take a look at the exit poll on Election Day in Louisiana. Here was the question. Do you think Bobby Jindal would make a good president? 27 percent said yes. 69 percent said no. Governor, these are Louisiana voters, these are the people who know you best.

JINDAL: Well, again, if we took on the entrenched interests like the teacher unions. And you're right, they try to recall me because we reformed tenure and we did statewide school choice. We have got over 34,000 fewer state governor employees, eight credit upgrades, balanced our budget without raising taxes.

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: You're saying that by the time you finished being president that 69 percent of Americans would think you didn't make a good president?

JINDAL: I'm saying if you had a president right now that balanced the budget without raising taxes, if you had a president that had grown the private sector economy -- we've grown our economy twice as fast as the national economy, eight credit upgrades, substantial improvements in our public education system, I think that's a record we need here. I think we need fewer politicians in D.C. that kiss babies, cut ribbons and say I'm going to just do what's politically popular. We need a president who's going to make the big, tough choices.

WALLACE: All right. I want to talk to you about that because you say you don't follow the polls, but your critics say that's exactly what you have done in the case of Common Core. Your administration applied three times for a grant under President Obama's Race to the Top. And when you finally got it, you bragged about being part of the program. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JINDAL: We adopted the Common Core state standards, which will raise expectations for every child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Then this summer you tried to pull out of Common Core until you were blocked by your own state superintendent of education. I guess the question is, why the flip?

JINDAL: Well, Chris, two things. I was -- I am still for high standards. Common Core was never supposed to be a top-down government-run approach. I've never been for the federal government making curriculum decisions in Baton Rouge or in any other local classroom.

WALLACE: But why did you -- and bragged about Common Core a few years ago?

JINDAL: Well, because it started out. It was supposed to be voluntary standards. This was a bait and switch. Now, look, the Race to the Top was never supposed to be about Common Core and that's why we're suing the federal government. This is a violation of the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution. Existing federal law says the federal government shouldn't make curriculum decisions. My argument is -- (INAUDIBLE) actually broken federal law in the Race to the Top funding, in the No Child Left Behind waivers using federal dollars to force states into Common Core. And by the way, I'm still for high standards. I don't want a one size fits all approach coming out of D.C.

WALLACE: But this bipartisan (ph) program that was started by the governors, not by the -- by Washington, and it's not a curriculum. It's a set of standards. It's skills and knowledge that you have to have at the end of each school year. And critics say that your real objection is that you are considering running for president, conservatives have turned against Common Core, so you're now with them.

JINDAL: Chris, you -- even the CEO PARCC has admitted what gets tested drives curriculum, drives what gets taught in the classroom. I've seen it as a parent. My child has brought home the math homework under Common Core. Two and used to be four. Now, in the Common Core, they've made it so complicated. There are lot of people that have changed their views on Common Core and they see what it has become. I am for high standards. I am for accountability. If this were truly being driven by the states, and we wrote into our (INAUDIBLE) that they had to follow the state bid law. They didn't do that. And that's why we've gone to court. This is becoming a top-down approach just like Obamacare. We were told you can keep your doctor, your keep your health plan. We were told this be locally driven, local curriculum. That's not what it is. This is a one size fits all approach from D.C. We have never allowed the federal government to make curriculum decisions in our local schools.

WALLACE: Governor.

JINDAL: We will continue to fight against this.

WALLACE: Thank you. Thanks for coming in today. We may be seeing a lot more of you in 2015.

JINDAL: Thank you for having me.

WALLACE: A final note when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Two, one!

(CHEERS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: For continuing coverage of those protests of the grand jury decision's not to indict police officers, stay tuned to this Fox station and Fox News Channel. But that's it for a packed show today. Have a great week. And we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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On the Show

Sunday September 25, 2016

Sunday, on the day before the first presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, we’ll speak to Trump’s running mate, Indiana Governor Mike Pence, about how the campaign is preparing for the biggest political event of the year so far.

Sunday—as Hillary Clinton gets ready to debate Donald Trump—we speak with Chief Strategist Joel Benenson to discuss how the campaign is preparing for the big event. It’s a Fox News Sunday exclusive.