This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 9, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Morgan Ortagus, Geraldo Rivera, Jason Chaffetz, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."
The RNC is trolling Democrats for appearing to come up short in Ohio's 12th district special election, a race that's still too close to call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Close, in Ohio 12 but no cigar, at least not yet.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: This is a moral victory for the Democrats. The fact that they're this close is a moral victory for the Democrats. You want a real victory.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: We get some mojos, all right. So, I don't know if it's a moral victory or whatever.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Moral victory.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Moral victory.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Moral victory.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Moral victory is not get you an office in Washington.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PERINO: Karl Rove reacting to the election result by saying the blue wave could be receding and Republicans have a fighting chance to keep the house majority. This comes as more Democrats are distancing themselves from party leader Nancy Pelosi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Would you back Pelosi for speaker if you win and are in the house?
ALEXADRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, NEW YORK CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think -- again, we don't want to get ahead of ourselves, as you've mentioned. I've got to win my race first. But we've got to take a look at what's going on. We've got to take a look at in winning the house back in November. And then once the house is won, we have to make that decision from there.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: We'll you vote for Nancy Pelosi?
RASHIDA TLAIB, MICHIGAN CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Probably not.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Probably not.
TLAIB: That's my answer. No, probably not. She doesn't speak about the issues that are important to the families of the 13th congressional district.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: All right. Jason, Nancy Pelosi has got a lot of high tolerance for this kind of thing. She doesn't ever get in the middle. She just lets them say what they want because she wants to win.
JASON CHAFFETZ, GUEST CO-HOST: Oh, she's keeping track.
PERINO: She's keeping track, but she keeps quiet.
CHAFFETZ: She's got a tally. Don't be fooling anybody. And you know what? It is a legitimate question because it's the very first thing you do as a new member of congress. You have to go in front of the entire body and call out who is it you're going to vote for. The reality is the Democrats -- they lack leadership. I don't think they have the right policies. And to the point of the peace beforehand, I don't think there is some big wave that's coming from the Democrats. I sat there in 2010, the year after -- the election after Barack Obama, they took -- I think it was a net of 63 seats that switched hands and there was this big tsunami, and I don't see any evidence of it happening.
PERINO: All right. I was so excited to talk politics. I didn't do what I meant to do, which is to introduce Morgan.
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah, nice work.
PERINO: . to all of you and to the audience. I'm very rude. I'm known for that, really, for being very rude. Morgan, welcome.
MORGAN ORTAGUS, GUEST CO-HOST: Thank you.
PERINO: Tell us a little about yourself. Where you're from?
ORTAGUS: I'm thrilled to be here. I've been watching this show for ages, so happy to be here. I live in New York City, but I'm from Florida. I am in the U.S. Navy reserves. I've been stationed as a civilian in Saudi Arabia at the U.S. embassy there, and in Baghdad. I think we've got some fun pictures of me looking like a dork in my Kevlar.
ORTAGUS: That's a very graceful picture of me in the Saudi Arabian desert. That's a classic. And this is me getting promoted a couple years ago.
GUTFELD: Anchors away. Congratulations.
ORTAGUS: And one of my favorite things, I'm an identical twin. I will give all of you $10 if you can guess which one is me.
PERINO: You're on the left.
GUTFELD: Wait, she looks totally different.
CHAFFETZ: You are not wearing those glasses. That is not you in the glasses.
ORTAGUS: I've moved to New York in 2006 to work on K.T. McFarland's Senate race as her press secretary. Ed Rollins brought me to New York and I literally lived with K.T., so it's very infectious here on Fox News with all of the connection.
PERINO: That is true. Also, you have another thing, you said you and grandfather use to...
ORTAGUS: I said before the show that I love Geraldo because I grew up with my grandfather watching cable news. But we've watch the first Iraq war with you reporting from both Iraq wars, actually. And --
GERALDO RIVERA, CO-HOST: 1991.
ORTAGUS: . I'm a big fan.
RIVERA: I used to get, you know, all the pretty girls saying, oh, I love you, Geraldo. Then the pretty girls would say, oh, my mother loves you, Geraldo. But now the pretty girls say, oh, my grandmother loves you, Geraldo.
ORTAGUS: No, it's nostalgic. It's very good.
PERINO: Greg, like all the older ladies love you.
GUTFELD: I'm like the sun they allow to get away with saying really awful things.
PERINO: That's true.
GUTFELD: Like they would punish me if I was there kid, but they just treat me like, oh, he doesn't really mean that.
PERINO: Morgan, welcome to you. Would you like to comment on the state of the midterms?
ORTAGUS: So, it was interesting to me, I was listening to what they were saying, moral victory, moral victory, and I thought moral victory is like the new liberal version of participation trophy. Like, you know, when you're a kid -- I'm the resident millennial on the panel. So we're millennial, you know, we were kids we get participation trophies and we didn't knew -- do well. So, I think, as long as they want to keep saying moral victory, they can have their participation trophy. But there's one winner, there's one person that gets sworn in and one person who's not, and it's a winner takes all game.
PERINO: I have to say, Geraldo, that reading Karl Rove's column this morning reminded me of August of 2006 when I was the deputy spokesperson and he was the political director and deputy chief of staff, and I'll go in and say, Karl, they're asking me again how you're feeling about the midterms, and he would tell me, well, all these things are going in our direction and -- until they weren't.
RIVERA: Until they weren't, yeah. Midterms are tough. But the thing about moral victories, it's interesting, the participation trophy, I think of a moral victory plus $2.75 gets you a token on the subway. They don't even use tokens anymore, the MTA cards. It is -- I think the Democrats are facing a potential problem with this division. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, we have been playing her. She's like the best advertisement for Republicans. But she represents a wing of the Democratic Party that's very fervent, energetic, but it is not the Nancy Pelosi mainstream wing of let's get things done. There is a division within the Democratic Party that I think bodes well for Republicans. I don't think Trump or the Republicans are out of the woods by any means. But I do think that at this stage with, you know, what is it? Less than three months to go before the election, the Democrats could be far more united, far more formidable. They have put up some good candidates. I mean, the guy running against Balderson in Ohio, good Danny boy is a good candidate. Came up short. I think there'll be some marginal shifting as of right now. If I were handicapping, I'd say it's basically a wash. The divided.
PERINO: The one thing about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, it's not that conservatives are putting her on television and interviewing her all the time. She's -- the media has made her a star.
GUTFELD: Yeah, exactly. What's being done with her is what CNN did with Trump, and they've shined a spotlight on this unusual character and they laugh. But remember, who got the last laugh. It wasn't CNN. It was Trump. So, remember -- when you target somebody, often the target gets better because they're listening and they learned from the mistakes and they see what works, so she might grow precisely because of the sunlight. As for the ad.
RIVERA: I don't mean to cut you off, but do you think a 50-year-old white guy is going to vote for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez under any circumstances?
GUTFELD: Of course. Of course.
RIVERA: Any circumstances. But do you think that that's really going to happen?
GUTFELD: Sure, why not.
RIVERA: I don't see it.
GUTFELD: Well, I think you asked that question so you can answer it.
GUTFELD: That's what Geraldo does. No, but I think in terms of -- I believe, for the Democrats, moral victories are to them real victories. And I hope they're undefeated with their moral victories because moral victories will not nominate a judge. They will not reverse any executive orders. You won't get to the White House on a moral victory. I'll take an immoral victory over a moral loss.
PERINO: Jason, I want you to listen to Andrew Cuomo. He's telling Democrats to be less negative. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO, D-N.Y.: I would like to see the Democratic Party, frankly, be less negative because Trump is doing the best negative case that we could ever do, and start to be more affirmative about what the Democrats will do when we get in power.
If you look back, I believe that's why the Democrats have lost in the past. We've not had a credible vision that people believed would make their life better.
And people have to believe you can do it. It can't be abstract, theoretical, pie in the sky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: All right. Are Democrats to negative?
CHAFFETZ: Yes. But they don't have anything to go to. They have the resistance movement, they have scorched earth, they want to raise your taxes, they want to give the gavel back to Nancy Pelosi. And if you ask yourself, what Democrats stand for, what do they really want to do? The answer is they want to get rid of the tax cuts. They want to go back to these policies that don't make any sense. I don't think they have a positive message. And the same Andrew Cuomo, we're going to talk about it later on the show, goes out and said, you know, I'm not going to cooperate with ICE. Well, that doesn't sound like somebody who's trying to be positive.
PERINO: the other thing though, Morgan, is that -- as everybody complains about negative ads, but negative ads work. So if you're not in power, the only way to actually get your message across is to say the other person is doing bad. Even if you want to get a positive message out there, in some ways, I guess Alexandria, for example, is going out talking about Medicare for all, free tuition.
PERINO: It looks like a positive message, but if you're an independent voter it might be a negative.
ORTAGUS: I just wish that people wouldn't keep comparing her to a beauty queen, because as a former beauty queen, I can say that everyone that I've worked with in the Miss America system is a hell a lot smarter than her. At least, better at being.
RIVERA: Why would you say that?
ORTAGUS: Because I think she's terrible on television. I mean, look at the stuff that she says.
RIVERA: She's terrible because she hasn't thought through how to pay for the wonderful programs that she keeps proposing.
ORTAGUS: Right, because there is no way to pay for them without bankrupting the U.S. government. So, listen, what you're getting at is, you know, who is motivated to come out to the polls in November, right? That's the real question. And I think even if they don't have a unifying message, I do think the Democrats are motivated to come out. So, I think it's going to be a really long election night. It's going to be close in a lot of districts. But that -- while I don't love the message, I do think that they are motivated and I think that's why you're seeing the president get involved in these primaries and the races around the country because, quite frankly, he is what is most unifying -- most motivating.
PERINO: It's quite interesting because right before the show the president was doing a roundtable in New Jersey. He was talking about prison reform. And you would think that most Democrats would agree with him on that, like want to come to the table and actually work with him on that. It's something that actually could get done.
GUTFELD: It wasn't even a roundtable. Did you notice that? It was rectangular table. It's a rectangle table. OK. But what you're talking about -- the problems with the Democratic Party, it's not just the negative messaging but also a lack of ideas. And so, what's -- the interesting thing about Trump is that he's open to almost any idea. I mean, you saw that with North Korea is the ultimate example of being open to any idea. And I think he will be open to prison reform. He's open to even certain things about immigration that, I mean, granting, essentially, amnesty to over a million people.
I want to bring up -- you know, I've spent a lot of time in pharmacies, just for reason that I can't get into. But the Democrat Party, when it comes to health care --
GUTFELD: They're throwing socialism around because they don't have any ideas. Meanwhile, you looks at CVS, the drugstore, is unveiling a telemedicine app, right? This is going to allow you to go and see a doctor via -- whatever screen you have. That solves health care. Not socialism. Not free health care. Not -- you could give Bernie Sanders trillions of dollars, he would not come up with an idea like telemedicine. This is going to be solved -- all the problems are going to be solved by capitalism, because capitalism replaces force with innovation. And the Democrats are still stuck on force and they're scared of ideas and innovation.
RIVERA: The problem is that nobody on either side of the aisle is going to work with the other side of the aisle. Infrastructure, for instance, a no- brainer.
PERINO: But that's why the private sector figures it out. But the private sector figures it out. Like that type of innovation, like you don't even have to have health insurance. If you want to pay out of your pocket for the telemedicine from CVS, and that could solve a lot of problems.
GUTFELD: Yeah. But, I mean, that is the solution. It isn't socialism. The Democrats came up with specific ideas for once, you know, it'd be kind of encouraging. Just once, give us one idea. One.
PERINO: We'll see if they hear you and if they respond with one idea, just one more idea. All right.
RIVERA: How about legalizing someone who's been here for 30 years and has citizen children?
PERINO: Well, that was what Greg just said, that the president was open to that.
GUTFELD: Yeah, he was going to do that. And you're looking at some pretty progressive drug laws going on right now.
PERINO: Yes, you are. All right, we could keep going but we have to move on and then come back to you. A New York Times columnist urges the mainstream media to team up against President Trump, and Greg will tell you why.
GUTFELD: I will.
GUTFELD: In the New York Times yesterday, Thomas Friedman wrote that instead of prattling on about issues like jobs or the great economy, the media should spotlight Trump's evil personality because that will help the Democrats by discouraging Republicans from backing Trump. He wrote: "The whole country needs to see every tweet, every rally, every word, and every reaction so that they can ask themselves, is this who I want my kids to see as our president?"
What a great idea. Because remember what happened the last time the media covered every tweet, every rally, every word, and every reaction of Donald Trump? When every wink, nudge, cough became part of the media's Snark-nado? They've elected Donald Trump, the bozos.
Yes, there were like 300 Republican candidates, but all the yahoos in the press chased the orange meteor precisely for the things they hate about him now. Trump was great TV. He was shocking. Screw Rick Perry, Rand Paul, and all those other nobodies. This guy makes chance into a sure thing. Trump got like a billion-dollars-worth of free airtime and not led by Fox News who actually featured commentators who challenge Trump over his behavior and beliefs. It was CNN who led the charge and assorted other drips who didn't seem to mind because they thought Hillary had it in the bag anyway, and they had no other way to get people to watch their boring, mindless coverage.
So telling the media to focus on Trump's behavior, you're in effect saying: Hey, remember how we elected Trump in 2016? Let's do it again.
Isn't that true, Morgan? It seems like Friedman has amnesia. The more you focus on Trump, the better he does, I think.
ORTAGUS: It's interesting that this advice is coming from people who -- it's like the most boring dinner party ever. They're having a glass of expensive wine and they're like, isn't Trump awful? And so, that's essentially -- you're having people that have no understanding of social media and how the president actually go straight to the America people advocating for the media covering him in general. I mean, this plays directly into his playbook, as you've said. And I think -- listen, I was on the other side of him in the primary, so I know what it's like for him to get all the media coverage. He did it brilliantly. He speaks directly to the American people. And I don't know what Friedman thinks he's doing. But I think the same people who read this and the Times are the same people who sit him at their boring dinner parties and complain about the president.
RIVERA: Who've you worked for in the primary?
RIVERA: Oh, yeah.
ORTAGUS: It didn't end well.
(LAUGHTER) GUTFELD: There were a lot of people at Fox who were on the other side. And the thing is -- well, I was watching the coverage on CNN and going, you know, they're doing everything.
PERINO: Not just CNN but.
PERINO: . MSNBC.
GUTFELD: Morning Joe should have been Morning Trump.
GUTFELD: Unlike Fox & Friends.
GUTFELD: I love Fox & Friends, I'm up every morning. Who should I talk to next? Jason, I'm looking at your face and I'm thinking, what's in your brain? What are you thinking? Is it good to get personal?
CHAFFETZ: One of the biggest disappointment -- when I came into congress in 2008, when I got to the end, it's the lack of objective media. And I've seen how they've totally change the rules because things that they wouldn't cover under Barack Obama they now want to cover incessantly with Donald Trump. They have totally flipped the equation. And to be, in a contrived way, actually advocating, hey, look, this is what we need to do so we can all get together on the same page.
CHAFFETZ: It's so contrived. There are very few media outlets that I really trust on that. You know, when you want to read the paper in the morning, people would always ask, I think the Wall Street Journal gives it the fairest, straightest objective viewpoint. But, you know, gone are the days of a New York Times or somebody like that that will objectively actually give you just the straight up news.
GUTFELD: You know, I believe that's owned by our parent company.
PERINO: I believe so. I'm a subscriber.
GUTFELD: Well done. I steal your paper.
PERINO: I'm old enough to remember that -- between 2000 and 2008, it was the same.
PERINO: I mean, this is when the media, like, they have to fight against President Bush on everything, every issue, every utterance, every -- was amplified. And then, as Greg has pointed out, that they were asleep during the Obama years.
GUTFELD: Obama place.
PERINO: But I do think -- this is what I think that there has been some journalism that has had an effect on the Trump administration. If you look at the HHS, former HHS secretary, Tom Price, he had to resign after that reporting. The New York Times and others -- mainly the New York Times focusing on Scott Pruitt at the EPA, that was journalism -- they didn't focus on President Trump. They were doing their journalism and they've had an effect. I would also say that they've spent.
GUTFELD: So did Pruitt. Pruitt had an effect. That's what he went after him. I mean, he was doing some good stuff, right?
GUTFELD: Yeah, he was doing stupid stuff too.
PERINO: You can do, like, good policy without the other, which Andy Kessler is doing now. The other thing I would say, if they cover every tweet and every utterance, then they're not covering all the other stuff.
PERINO: There's limited room in the newspaper. And if they just want to do the tweets, they can do that, and all the other stuff goes under the radar.
RIVERA: What people -- like Tom Friedman who's a bright guy, but he's dead wrong on this.
GUTFELD: He has a better moustache.
RIVERA: What they don't get is that Trump is a movie star. He's got charisma. You've mentioned Jeb Bush. I like Jeb a lot. I mean, I've interviewed him a bunch of times when he was governor. But, next to Trump, it was like he had -- it was vanilla next to a banana split with a cherry on top.
ORTAGUS: He did that one guy, one through the primary, and just took everybody out.
RIVERA: Because they couldn't compete with someone with that kind of charisma. Now you can hate Trump, you can love Trump, but the thing is there is a magnetism about him. The more you see him and he doesn't blow the world up, it's like, hey, you know, maybe he's not so bad. The economy is OK. It's really good in fact. We're not at war with North Korea. Ii may work out. The Iranians, what have they done after they really heard us. And the more he's around, I think, the more people will get used to him. I think it really works in Trump's favor.
ORTAGUS: What's surprising to me about the piece is that Friedman, sort of -- he put it out there that the media is not for the president. He sort of said the media should be against the president.
GUTFELD: Yeah. He was honest.
ORTAGUS: I mean, I thought, is he admitting the fake news.
(CROSSTALK) PERINO: Like remember the time he was honest and he said I wish we could be China for a day.
PERINO: We could get all sorts of done -- the things done that everybody went after him for saying, oh.
GUTFELD: Yeah, every now and then he lets it slip. He pulls back the curtain and we see what we really know to be true. All right. Nancy Pelosi's outrageous new plan to help illegal immigrants, find out what it is, next.
RIVERA: Nancy Pelosi adding fuel to the raging debate over immigration. The house minority leader urging voters to back Democratic candidates in the midterms to help her parties immigration agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We are not going to be able to get it done under the Republican leadership incumbent. We believe that we will have leverage when we went in November. And why that's important, because it gives leverage to every family, to every mom who courageously brought her child across the desert to escape.
(END VIDEO CLIP) RIVERA: That's the minority leader in El Paso. The Democratic governor of New York slamming ICE with this new threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK GOVERNOR: I will do nothing cooperatively with ICE. I have sent them letters asking for an investigation. I have said if they do any criminal acts, which a police force can do, we will take criminal action against ICE, because I believe they are politically motivated.
(END VIDEO CLIP) RIVERA: Let me ask you, congressman. Did you leave congress because of your frustration that the two bodies and the two sides could not work together?
CHAFFETZ: That was a big part of it. I mean, something like immigration, I have passed a bill dealing with immigration, 385 votes in the house, very bipartisan. The senate didn't take it up. And the Harry Reid folks came over and said, hey, you know what the reasons were not going to do it is we can't allow Republicans have a victory on immigration. And it is terribly frustrating, it is wrong. But I think those messages are fundamentally wrong. And I do believe the polling that the number one issue going into the midterm will actually be immigration. There are only eight congressional days left in the House of Representatives. They have to pass a continuing resolution or an omnibus, and the president has laid down the law. There is going to be funding in there, or I will veto that bill. And that has to happen before the election.
RIVERA: Do you take him at his word that he's actually going to shut down the government? And if he shuts down the government, how do you get it reopened? What happens to reopen once he shuts it?
CHAFFETZ: This is why I think they need to make the case to the American people there's no reason out of a $4 trillion annual budget you can't put in their $25 billion to fund the wall. And if you extrapolate that over ten years, we're talking $40 trillion.
RIVERA: All right. I'll give you 25 billion for the wall if you give me a green light for the dreamers.
CHAFFETZ: I think what the president has offered goes far beyond what he promised in the election. He's actually agreed to do that sort of thing.
RIVERA: So, you would allow what many in the party call amnesty for the Dreamers?
CHAFFETZ: I reject the amnesty. I don't think you have to put them on a pathway to citizenship, but I do think you can give them some legal status so that they have the certainty. But you've got to get rid of the rewards and incentives to be here illegally. And what Nancy Pelosi is doing in El Paso is morally wrong to encourage people to cross that desert but their lives on the line. They should be going to the U.S. embassy in El Salvador rather than putting life in peril.
RIVERA: Are you shocked, Morgan, that the abolished ICE plank --
RIVERA: -- has gained such credibility in the democratic mainstream?
ORTAGUS: I am shocked, you know, you know about the Democrat mainstream more than I do. I think by the --
RIVERA: I'm not a Democrat.
ORTAGUS: -- by the moderate victories --
RIVERA: I am a --
ORTAGUS: -- in Michigan and Ohio --
RIVERA: -- immigrant lover.
ORTAGUS: -- from the Democrat Party, I think that the moderates have won in that part. The thing that surprised me so much as I've worked closely for the past over a decade with people at DHS and ICE when I was in government and my reserve capacity. And these are people that -- you know, that sign up to serve their government, to serving faithfully. And I sort of see what's happening to ICE is the same thing that I think we saw, you know, several years ago, the Democrats doing to police around America.
So it was OK to bash the police a few years ago. Now, it's OK to bash ICE, if you want to talk about reforming the institution, that's fine. We need reform all day every day, and many government institutions. But the disparaged people who raise their hand and take an oath to serve our country is flat-out disgusting.
RIVERA: I agree with Jason's proposal, Dana, that immigration is the biggest issue. Because I think it encapsulates a lot of other things like --
PERINO: Everything. Right.
RIVERA: -- race and --
RIVERA: -- jobs and social class and all the rest of it. But which image is more powerful? The classic image of a brown wave overwhelming the southern border, all these immigrants coming in and ruining our quality of life, or ICE going into peaceable homes and going after, you know, Diego Garcia, who's been a gardener here for 30 years and he married an American citizen and his children were all born here and they were public (ph), too. Which image is more powerful, and won't that, in Jason's --
PERINO: I guess it depends on where you sit, right? So, I think that the wave is definitely probably the more powerful image, as the president paints it. But, you know, like earlier this week, there was a story about a marine whose wife who had come here illegally 30 years ago or something, they have two children. He has served in Iraq three times. She got deported. And that story -- it was an A.P. story but it doesn't get a ton of coverage. But if you get enough of those, that you might actually start to see some pushback.
I actually think that President Trump, if the Republicans lose the House, his chances of getting an immigration bill that he could live with and that he could support and that would be good for the country is more possible than if the Republicans keep the House.
PERINO: Because the Republicans have shown over and over that they're not willing to make a deal. And also because of what Jason just said. Because the Democrats are saying, well, we can't give the Republicans a win. Think of what Newt Gingrich did in 1996 with Bill Clinton on welfare reform. It was a big issue. What did that do? It helped President Clinton win reelection because it basically changes the paradigm. So it's not that this can't get done, if nothing else, if the Republicans lose. I actually think it's more likely it gets done because of Trump.
RIVERA: Where do you stand on that? I don't know, I mean, which of those images really grips you?
GUTFELD: Yes, I reject the black-and-white nature of this conversation. You can hold a number of stances, competing stances on immigration. It's just like a stock portfolio. OK.
GUTFELD: So, you can be for a process that enables safe legal immigration while curbing illegal immigration or other types of immigration. When you say something like that, you feed into the media's gaping maw and they turns into you hate foreigners. It's either you are for this or you are against this. And if you're for law, something is wrong with you. That's not how it is. You can hold a number of different positions and it all makes sense.
For example, the difference between the right and the left are laws. The difference in the immigration debate is the stance of abiding a law. The conservatives, Republicans wanted you to abide by the law. The left are saying no, no, no, sanctuary, sanctuary. People are fleeing. Refugees are fleeing countries precisely because there are laws missing. The reason why they're coming to America is because our laws create order which enables freedom that allows people to live their lives in safety. If you look at Somalia, which has no laws, the Congo, Venezuela, which are -- was chaos, they have no laws. You've got to get out.
So I think --
RIVERA: I think that hold the got to obey the law stuff is such B.S., I really think it is such cover.
GUTFELD: Well, that's not a (INAUDIBLE) --
RIVERA: It's such a cover --
GUTFELD: What am I covering, Geraldo?
RIVERA: -- you're avoiding dealing with the issue of where are you in terms of --
GUTFELD: I just explained you the issue, you totally ignored what I said.
RIVERA: I mean, what are you going to say -- GUTFELD: OK, let me explain it to you one more time and I'll do it slow. You can have competing notions about immigration. You can be for legal immigration because you want more immigrants here. I'm that guy. I'm -- and if there's a -- I'm even for a pathway to citizenship. However, I believe that illegal immigration is breaking the law. If you can somehow adjust that --
RIVERA: So is speeding.
GUTFELD: Yes, and I'm against speeding too. I am sure you're not, though, Geraldo. You probably speed without a shirt (ph).
RIVERA: The sit-down showdown intensifies. President is telling America - - thanks for the pen. Stay tuned as his legal team attacks the Mueller probe.
CHAFFETZ: You gave me bad hailing (ph), I'm impressed. President Trump tweeting stay tuned while slamming the so-called rigged witch hunt as his legal team continues to attack the special counsel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: I've never been involved in an investigation on either side that's more illegitimate. If it isn't over by September, then we have a very, very serious violation of the Justice Department rules that you shouldn't be conducting one of these investigations in the 60-day period.
The real story here is not that this case isn't going to fizzle. It's going to blow up on them. There's a lot more to what they did that nobody knows about yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAFFETZ: Giuliani also saying drawn-out negotiations over a potential interview with the president could benefit the GOP in the midterms. Dana, what's (ph) your --
PERINO: No -- so then, we should keep the investigation going through --
PERINO: -- December to help the midterms rather than saying that it should be wrapped up by September. We got to take -- because they have to take their pick on that.
CHAFFETZ: Given a chance to wrap this thing up --
PERINO: And also, I just remember that Senator Grassley, when he interviewed -- when he had Comey there to testify, he said, why did you let a date drive your decision on an investigation into Hillary Clinton. That's inappropriate. The investigation should finish when it finishes and you shouldn't try to do that. So, anyway. They're a little bit (INAUDIBLE) of doing that.
CHAFFETZ: And, Geraldo, they're going to have a hard time with that argument in light of what happened to Hillary Clinton. I mean, the Democrats aren't going to buy into that. But how do you see this playing out in the midterms?
RIVERA: I think, first of all, the attack on Hillary Clinton during Benghazi is why her candidacy had legs anyway. I thought it was a big mistake by the Republicans, went way overboard. And I think that you wish you could have picked on (ph) that.
CHAFFETZ: More people were killed.
RIVERA: Not by Hillary Clinton.
GUTFELD: That's B.S. To quote Geraldo, that's B.S.
CHAFFETZ: Oh my goodness, we're switching topics.
RIVERA: I like it, though. In terms of the Mueller investigation of the president, the one thing I want to say, and if the president credits my advice to -- even to the slightest degree, I hope he listens to me. Do not testify before Mueller's investigation. It is a trap. It is absolutely -- it's a landline you cannot survive. For example, I say it's a perjury trap, here's the question, I'm Mueller. You are the president. Did you ever cheat on your wife, Mr. President? What's your answer? What's your answer? You got to answer.
ORTAGUS: Jason looks really nervous right now.
CHAFFETZ: You know, I've never cheated on my wife.
RIVERA: He cannot put himself in -- I don't care, Mueller could promise the world velvet gloves. You know, going to take good care of you.
CHAFFETZ: And based on your Benghazi answer, your time has expired.
ORTAGUS: I forgot what we're talking about. What is it, Benghazi?
CHAFFETZ: No, the midterms --
ORTAGUS: Oh, OK.
CHAFFETZ: -- is this really going to -- I mean, if it's -- Giuliani is saying that there's a lot more information's going to come out here. But do we really -- does this motivate -- you mentioned earlier, the motivation is what drives turnout. And do people say, hey, we got to get out there and protect our president?
ORTAGUS: I think what law enforcement has to be careful about is proven by Jim Comey the most is that they're not politicians and they don't understand politics. And as you talked about Hillary Clinton, I think if we brought anyone from her campaign on right now, they would blame Jim Comey, right, for what he did, you know, a few weeks before the election. So I do think that Mueller has to be careful, and I do think that even though he has a lot of credibility, there's legitimate reasons when the president says there are 17 angry Democrats and people that attended Hillary's election night party and people who donated.
For the average American watching it, my problem with that is that we have lost both sides, different points have lost faith and credibility in this FBI and then the DOJ. And I don't think that's a good thing. I think during the election, Democrats were mad at the FBI. Now, Republicans are. And it's not good for this to be partisan. We need to have a set of rules where they say, OK, there is no standard, right? There's only the memo written in 2012 from the then attorney general. So we need to have a standard as we get closer to elections. What is the standard that we're all going? Why, am I really boring you that much?
PERINO: Now, we only had 30 seconds left.
GUTFELD: No, I'm suffering from investigation fatigue. I think I can speak for all of America that they would rather do my laundry than hear about this investigation anymore. Remember Beckel?
GUTFELD: He used to boycott segments. He just go like this.
PERINO: Yes, what segments did he boycott?
GUTFELD: Benghazi. I'm just --
GUTFELD: No one cares America, you know this, you don't care, you don't care about this collusion stuff because he know it's B.S.
PERINO: Can I add one last thing?
GUTFELD: You know it's B.S.
PERINO: John Yoo who we all know is a --
PERINO: -- legal scholar, he teaches at Berkeley now, so he's on a 2:00 show today. It surprised me but he said he believes the president should testify. And it's coming from John Yoo, but he said he is the chief law enforcement officer --
CHAFFETZ: And the right answer --
PERINO: -- (INAUDIBLE) to do it.
CHAFFETZ: The right answer is, the president will testify because he does things very differently than any advice he gets. (INAUDIBLE) our smartphones leading to the death of conversations.
ORTAGUS: Our smartphones killing conversations. A new study says it's trending that way. According to British researchers, we're talking to each other less on our mobile phones despite our addiction to these devices. Popular messaging apps like Skype and Snapchat are slashing the amount of time spent on traditional voice calls. So, is this the beginning of the end for verbal communication? Dana, wait, hold on.
PERINO: Are you going to call me?
ORTAGUS: Yes. So anyway, that was my attempt at humor.
PERINO: Yes, I think there's -- all the studies, right, that people prefer -- they think it's rude to call now.
ORTAGUS: It is.
PERINO: Right? And that --
ORTAGUS: I think so.
PERINO: So the thing is, if you called, it would take less time to communicate your message than if you were texting five times to figure out where you were in the park to hook up. Or meet up, whatever.
GUTFELD: Whoa, Dana.
PERINO: (INAUDIBLE) meet up.
ORTAGUS: What does that mean?
GUTFELD: Hooking up in the park. Dana, hooking up in the park. Rock and roll, Dana.
PERINO: I also was going to say --
GUTFELD: First, she started swearing, now she's hooking up in the park. What else is she doing?
ORTAGUS: Calling on (INAUDIBLE).
PERINO: I also wanted to commend Arthur Brooks, he has a new podcast. He's head of AEI and he talked about this whole problem about phones killing conversation. And one of the things he talked about was how humans evolve and that we have a voice and that our voice is a tool. And so that's how you know that Greg is telling a joke. If he just texts you something, you don't know. But you use your voice in order to do that.
ORTAGUS: That's why you use an emoji. Jason. I feel like you're all going to school (ph) me as the millennial in the (INAUDIBLE).
CHAFFETZ: Well, the short answer is yes, and I love that we're still calling them smartphones because it's not like there's a lot of dumb ones out there anymore. They do almost everything you could possibly want them to do.
My biggest concern is how it's going to change particularly a younger generation. I think sporting events, with the Supreme Court ruling, it's going to totally change how you watch sports now that gaming is going to happen on those phones. You're going to be, hey, is he going to make the free throw or not. And people betting five bucks. It's going to totally change that. And I'm really worried what the government and private companies are doing with facial recognition. Government already has, one out of every two people is already in a database of the FBI. I don't --
ORTAGUS: Jason, you're taking this way too seriously.
CHAFFETZ: No, but I totally worry about this. I lose sleep over this stuff.
PERINO: Chill out.
ORTAGUS: OK. Do you lose sleep over your smartphone?
RIVERA: I -- what I don't do is have voice messages on my phone.
ORTAGUS: Oh, I hate that.
RIVERA: I didn't set up my phone at all for voice messages.
RIVERA: Because I found what people do is, they want to make a point. You know, go -- you have to go pick up the garbage and then do that and they say OK. And you have no chance to respond, to rebut, to deny, to -- so I don't -- as a result, I don't have a lot of talking on my telephone (ph).
ORTAGUS: So Greg, if I told you --
GUTFELD: Not set up the voice -- yes.
ORTAGUS: If I call you, Greg, would you answer the phone?
GUTFELD: Of course, I would. You know, the great -- they say kill it -- this also prevents conversations, which is great because whenever I see like Kilmeade coming down the hall and he's like about to talk to me, I'm like --
ORTAGUS: Oh, sorry.
GUTFELD: Yes, sorry, and then I do that. I am so good at impersonating serious angry phone call because no one interrupts an angry phone call when you're like, look, I told you already --
ORTAGUS: Yes, yes, you --
GUTFELD: -- the tests were negative.
ORTAGUS: You walk away.
GUTFELD: And then no one will go near me. But by the way, we had this conversation about video games 20 years ago, 48 years ago with TV, 200,000 years ago, it was about the destructive impact of cave drawings. So whenever there's technology, we always get these fears.
GUTFELD: But what this is, this is just an external drive for your brain. You have everything in the universe in this thing. You got every book, so you don't have to keep it in here.
ORTAGUS: Well, I think that talking on the phone is weird because I'm a millennial. So talking in the phone is (INAUDIBLE) today, Gernie (ph), I love you. And I will always talk to you on the phone.
PERINO: How many times you want to tell us you're millennial? We get it, are you age shaming the rest of us at the table?
ORTAGUS: No, it's because I'm actually like I'm a really old millennial and I want to hold on to my youth because I kind of in that one.
GUTFELD: I'm Gen X.
PERINO: Me, too.
RIVERA: The big fear I have is that people are missing the real world because their heads are buried.
GUTFELD: That's true.
PERINO: And the real world is great.
RIVERA: And the world is great. But this is better.
GUTFELD: Butterflies and mountains (ph).
PERINO: These are great, too.
ORTAGUS: OK. Well, one more thing is up next.
PERINO: It's time now for one more thing. I will call on myself, Dana. OK, it's nearly back-to-school season and that means all of our fabulous college associates are headed back to school. They've been amazing. I think that the Fox News college associate program is certainly one of the best I've ever been involved with. All of these guys get to participate and learn across the channel and all the different departments and today at The Five, it's our college associate Mollie's last day with us.
Mollie has been a key part of our team over the last few months, she's -- there she is. She's going to be headed back to the University of Maryland in the fall so she can cheer on the terrapins. So to Mollie and all of our college associates, congratulations, thank you, and go do a good semester's worth of work and maybe we'll hire you one day.
GUTFELD: They weren't that great. Hey, I'm going to be at Ridgewood, New Jersey at 8:00 signing books. So if you're in the neighborhood, drive on over, I will sign your book and I'll say something really rude to one of your parents. All right, let's do this.
We're just around the corner from NFL preseason, oh, we're going to love some of this, this is the Dallas pit bulls, take a look. Fuzzy McPoe (ph) is one of the brightest stars right now and, man, he can deliver a hit. There he is, Fuzzy. Where is Frisky (ph)? Oh, Frisky Buttkisses (ph) coming after him, this is some really thrilling tape, I can tell by the response of my panelists who think that maybe I have a mental illness.
PERINO: I mean, where do you get these things? These are complex (ph).
GUTFELD: They're given to be by a man named, Sean (ph).
PERINO: Oh, I know Sean well.
GUTFELD: And you know what, he gives them to me in the park where you hook up.
PERINO: You'll have to tell me more about that. Geraldo.
RIVERA: Well, Saturday night, I'll be attending in East Hampton a benefit called Authors Night, it's authors night in Amagansett, New York in the Hamptons, it's in the east end of Long Island. If you head there, stop by, we'll be signing (INAUDIBLE) my book, The Geraldo Show, all right, it's much more renaissance than you give it credit for.
It's an event that hosts hundreds of authors, a room full of authors last year. It was really mob (ph) there, it's 107. It's hosted by, this will be interesting, Alec Baldwin, and his wife, Hilaria. She has her own book. But it'll be interesting, I wonder how Alec is going to respond to me being there.
PERINO: I bet he gives you a big bear hug.
RIVERA: Oh, I don't know.
PERINO: Congratulations, that's a great book.
RIVERA: Thank you. Come by, see me, pick up a copy of my book.
PERINO: And also Geraldo will insult your parents like Greg. OK, Jason.
CHAFFETZ: Law enforcement needs all the help it can get, and in Florida, they got a different kind of help.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cow, if you see the large group of cows, they're literally following her and chasing her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAFFETZ: This is in Seminole County, there's three people, they're in a car chase, the one person gets out, the female driver, she's lost, she doesn't know what she's doing and these cows come to the rescue by chasing this would-be (ph) perpetrator, alleged perpetrator and their law enforcement took her down. With the help of the cows, she's lucky they didn't run into a gator.
PERINO: That was a good move. Morgan.
ORTAGUS: All right, I got good stuff (ph), but -- so we have some pictures here, 11 years ago, I was in Baghdad and I celebrated Hanukkah in Saddam's palace which was the embassy at the time. And it was a really cold movement. I ran into someone this weekend unbeknownst to me who I spent Hanukkah dinner with in Baghdad 11 years ago and, actually, it's pretty funny, this Marine Corps officer let me drive his Humvee around the green zone, which I'm not going to say his name. But it was pretty cool to run into someone 11 years later from my favorite war zone (ph).
PERINO: Yes, and where you observed (ph) so admirably. Thank you for all of your service. We appreciate it. Thanks for being here today, set your DVRs, never miss an episode of "The Five." He's a news guy, you can't help but like. Up next, it's Mike Emanuel.
MIKE EMANUEL, FOX NEWS: Well done. Thank you, Dana.
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