Safe at home? Sen. Richard Burr talks terror threat; Carly Fiorina reacts to Planned Parenthood shooting

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," November 29, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


A deadly siege at a Planned Parenthood center.  Now, police search for a motive. 



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He was aiming at me and he started shooting.  And I was looking at his face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, there was a lot of gunfire.  

WALLACE:  Three dead, including a police officer.  Was it related to allegations about the sale of fetal body parts for research?  

We'll talk with GOP presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, a staunch opponent of Planned Parenthood’s abortion practices.  

Then, Americans face heightened security at home, on the busiest travel holiday of the year.  

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I want the American people to know that we are taking every possible step to keep our homeland safe.  

WALLACE:  In the midst of a worldwide travel alert due to terror attacks, we'll set down with Richard Burr, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee.  It's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.  

Plus, Ben Carson looks to beef up his foreign policy credentials with a trip to Syrian refugee camps.  

And Donald Trump fends off criticism he mocked a reporter's disability.  

We'll ask the Sunday panel about a GOP course correction.

All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  And hello again from Fox News in Washington.  

A deadly shooting at a Planned Parenthood Center in Colorado Springs is renewing debates over abortion and gun control.  But while a suspect is in custody, it's still unclear what motivated him to open fire.  

We'll talk with presidential Carly Fiorina in a moment, but first, Fox News correspondent Will Carr is live outside the clinic -- Will.

WILL CARR, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Chris, while Robert Lewis Dear is set to appear in court on Monday, the question is why did he kill three people and injure nine others?

This weekend, authorities have been searching his trailer in nearby Park County, Colorado, looking for clues.  Keep in mind that Dear surrendered on Friday and now there are multiple reports that he's been rambling in interviews with investigators, at one point saying, quote, "no more baby parts", which appears to refer to recent videos allegedly showing Planned Parenthood officials discussing the sale of fetal body parts.  

Investigators digging into Dear’s past after they say he stormed the Planned Parenthood behind me with an assault weapon and got into a shootout with police on Friday.  He previously lived in a cabin in North Carolina with no, and had past arrests for domestic violence and animal cruelty.  Those who knew him best say he kept to himself and he never spoke about religion or abortion.  

At the same time, one of his victims, Officer Garrett Swasey is being remembered as a father, an athlete, and an athlete and man of God.  


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  If I can put it in a nutshell, I think he was -- he was a person who served his community with integrity, served with his whole life.  I think he meant hope to this community.  


CARR:  President Obama issuing a statement in part which says, enough is enough in regards to gun violence, and at the same time, Attorney General Lynch calling this a crime against women who use Planned Parenthood for health care services -- Chris.  

WALLACE:  Will Carr, reporting from Colorado Springs -- Will, thanks for that.  

Joining me now is Republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, who has taken a hard line against Planned Parenthood's abortion practices.  

Ms. Fiorina, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

CARLY FIORINA, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Thanks for having me, Chris.  Happy Thanksgiving.  

WALLACE:  Thank you.  Same to you.  

Your reaction to the shootings at that clinic in Colorado Springs?  

FIORINA:  Well, this is a tragedy.  It's obviously a tragedy.  Nothing justifies this.  And presumably this man who appears deranged, if nothing else, will be tried for murder, as he should be.  But it's a tragedy, especially on a holiday weekend.  

WALLACE:  You have been one of the toughest critics, as we've said, of Planned Parenthood's alleged harvesting of body parts, selling for fetal research.  Some of the pro-choice advocates are saying language like yours, not single you out, but language like yours, has incited violence.  I’d like to get your reaction to that.  But also, what would you say to protesters, people outside these clinics, about the limits of their opposition?  

FIORINA:  Well, first, it is not alleged.  Planned Parenthood acknowledged several weeks ago they would no longer take compensation for body parts, which sounds like an admission that they were doing so.  

Secondly, this is so typical of the left to immediately begin demonizing the messenger, because they don't agree with the message.  The vast majority of Americans agree, what Planned Parenthood is doing is wrong.  That's why the vast majority of Americans are prepared not only to defund Planned Parenthood, but also to stop abortion for any reason at all after five months.

So, what I would say to anyone who tries to link this terrible tragedy to anyone who opposes abortion or opposes the sale of body parts is, this is typical left-wing tactics.

WALLACE:  And what would you say to the protesters, the people that are outside the clinics and oppose it?  

FIORINA:  Well, any protesters should always be peaceful, whether it's Black Lives Matter or pro-life protesters, protesters should always be peaceful and respectful.  

WALLACE:  Let me turn subjects on you.  President Obama is on his way to Paris today for a climate change summit.  And this week, he linked that to the war on terror.  Take a look.  


OBAMA:  What a powerful rebuke to the terrorists it will be when the world stands at one and shows that we will not be deterred from building a better future for our children.  


WALLACE:  Your reaction to the summit and to the contention by some in the Obama administration that climate change is, if not the biggest, certainly the most immediate threat to our national security?  

FIORINA:  Well, that's delusional.  It is delusional for President Obama and Hillary Clinton and anyone else to say that climate change is our near-term most severe security threat.  It is ISIS, period, followed closely by Iran and perhaps Russia.  

President Obama continues to think that somehow our behavior causes terrorism, so he says the climate change summit is a powerful rebuke.  No, it's not.  The terrorists don't care that we're gathering in Paris other than it provides a target, just as he said, well, Republicans are giving terrorists a recruiting tool when we don't think Syrian refugees should be allowed to enter this country if we cannot properly vet them.  

President Obama is delusional about this.  He’s delusional about the threat, which apparently is why he won't do anything about it.  

WALLACE:  Do you think it's worthwhile for him to go to Paris, to go to this international summit and try to work out emissions limits?  

FIORINA:  Well, look, if you read the fine print of the science, what the scientists tell us, all those scientist who say climate change is real and manmade, they also tell us that a single nation acting alone can make no difference at all.  That it would take a concerted global effort over 30 years, costing trillions of dollars.  I think the likelihood of that is near zero.  So, no, I don’t think it’s particularly productive.

I think it would be far more productive if President Obama instead was there leading an international coalition to stop human trafficking or an international coalition for humanitarian relief for the refugees or an international coalition to defeat ISIS.  All those would be more useful than time in Paris spent talking about climate change.  

WALLACE:  You know, let's turn to the Republican presidential race.  You have gotten a big lift in the polls, particularly after the first two Republican debates, but just looking at the numbers, you have fallen back since then.  

Let's put up a couple of the polls.  In the Real Clear Politics average of recent polls in Iowa, you're not sixth with 3.7 percent.  That’s down from where you were running third with 10.3 percent in early October.  It's the same in New Hampshire.  You're now tied for ninth with 4.3 percent, down from early October when you were running second with 14.3 percent.  

You are a numbers person.  Why do you keep sliding back?  

FIORINA:  Well, I’m a numbers person, but national polls and some of these polls are notoriously unpredictive.  They’ve never predicted a winner at this stage in the race.

But here's what I would say.  When I launched my campaign on May 4th, no one would have said I would be in the top ten.  No one would have said I would be on the main stage.  

In fact, every pundit on this channel and every other channel virtually wrote me off.  I’ve had a trajectory unlike any other candidate.  I was the least well-known candidates on May 4th.  I remain at the bottom of well-known candidates.  

In other words, a lot of Republican voters still don't know who I am.  I’m very happy with where I am.  

WALLACE:  But let me --  

FIORINA:  And now, people are going to start paying attention.  Now, people are paying attention.  

WALLACE:  But let me check you on that, because I know you talk about name recognition, so I looked into that this weekend.  According to a national Quinnipiac poll, this month, more Republicans now know who you are than know who Marco Rubio is, or Ted Cruz, and yet, they're running ahead of you in the polls.  So, it isn't just name recognition.  

FIORINA:  No, I’m not saying it's just name recognition, but it is to say, that having never run for a political office before and not being a household name and in people’s living rooms like Donald Trump and Ben Carson for many years, people are getting to know me.  And now, by the way, people are starting to pay attention.  

And so, later this week, I’m going to be rolling out my blueprint -- the blueprint for what we need to do to take our country back.  Our government is crushing the potential of our nation, and to take our country back will require a different kind of leadership in the White House.  It is why I’m running.  

It will require citizenship, and we need to do some very specific things -- from radically simplifying the tax code, to go into zero-based budgeting, to repealing Obamacare, to restoring the character of our nation, to enforcing a pro-American immigration system, to defeating ISIS and getting back in the leadership business around the world.  

WALLACE:  There’s a lot I want to pick up on that.  Specifically, first, you mentioned Donald Trump.  One of your biggest moments so far in this campaign was when you shot back at Mr. Trump after he commented on your appearance.  

This week he is under fire again, this time for mocking the physical disability of a reporter.  Take a look.  


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  You've got to see this guy, I don't know what I said, I don't remember.  He's like, I don't remember.  Maybe that's what I said.  This is 14 years ago.  Still, they didn't do a retraction!  


WALLACE:  Are you prepared to call Trump out on that?  

FIORINA:  Well, yes, this is the pattern, isn't it?  The pattern is he says something insulting, offensive, outrageous, the media pays attention, and he claims we all misunderstood him, the media pays attention again.

This is the pattern perhaps of an entertainer.  It’s certainly not a pattern of a leader.

Apparently, Donald Trump only feels big when he's trying to make everyone else look small.  Of course, in the end, he looks the smallest of all.  

WALLACE:  You are talking about the fact you are going to come out with specifics on a variety of issues.  I want to talk about the tax code, because you have taken some heat, for at least so far.  I don’t know what you’re going to do this week.

Not being specific enough, according to some people, on the tax code.  You’ve said that you want to reduce 73,000-page tax code to three pages.  You say that you're going to close every loophole and lower every tax rate.  

But again, some people say you haven't been specific enough, so I’d like to do a lightning round with you -- quick questions, quick answers, ask you some specific questions, hopefully get some specific answers.  

Would you end -- do you plan to end the home mortgage deduction?  

FIORINA:  Probably, yes, but by the way, there's been a plan for a three-page tax code out for 20 years.  This isn't news.  Hoover Institute, a fine conservative think tank of which I have served as a member of the board of trustees, they've had a three-page tax code out for 20 years.

I think fundamentally what we ought to do is have the government to take away less money so that it has to give less money back.  A 73,000-page tax code is so complicated.  This is how the government maintains power.  It's giving all these credits and deductions back, because it takes too much away.  Of course, it's true, if you're late, you have to pay interest, but if the government is late, they never pay interest.  

WALLACE:  Do you -- would you eliminate the deduction for charitable donations?  

FIORINA:  Probably.  Look, if we added two more back in, let's say those are the two most popular deductions, the charitable tax donations and home mortgage tax deduction, good.  Let’s add two more back in.  

The fundamental design philosophy, however, is lower every rate, close every loophole, because government takes too --

WALLACE:  But you would end both of those deductions.  

FIORINA:  I said probably, I said even if we put both back in, can you imagine how much simpler that would be.  This is what the government does.  It takes away too much money and then with all those deductions and loopholes, it exerts power.  

I could live with two deductions, Chris.  I could live with the charitable and the home mortgage deduction.  But this is what always happens.  Everybody says, oh, you can't take those away for 73,000 pages never gets reformed, never gets reform.  The fundamental blueprint -- you have to have a blueprint to have fundamental reform.  

You know why this has never happened?  Because everybody's ox is going to get gored.  If you go from 73,000 pages down to three pages, everybody’s ox gets gored -- every politician, every lobbyist, every accountant, every lawyer.  The only people who benefit are the small, the powerless, the new business.  

The tax code, the complexity of government favors the big, the powerful, the wealthy, the well-connected.  It's called crony capitalism.  Republicans have engaged in it as well as Democrats.

If you level the playing field by simplifying, then you help the small all powerless and the middle class.  

WALLACE:  Finally, and we’re running out of time here -- President Obama got a fair amount of criticism this week -- or rather, attention this weeks, not criticism, for pardoning a turkey.  It turns out you did the same thing.  Take a look.  


FIORINA:  We are pardoning the turkey so that you go on to find yourself a nice Tom and create some turkeys that maybe will get eaten next year.  


WALLACE:  I love -- that was Jenny, right?  

FIORINA:  That was Jenny, that was jenny.  

WALLACE:  So, that is an Obama policy that you would continue as president?  

FIORINA:  I think it's a presidential tradition.  In fairness to Obama, I think many presidents have pardoned turkey.  

WALLACE:  But under President Fiorina, there will be turkey pardoning?  

FIORINA:  Yes, I will, Toms and Jennies.  

WALLACE:  OK.  Ms. Fiorina, thank you.  Thanks for sharing part of your holiday with us.  

FIORINA:  Thank you.

WALLACE:  Up next, world leaders gather at a climb changes summit even as they deal with the more immediate issue of terrorism.  

We'll have a live report from Paris and discuss the threat to the U.S. homeland with the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard Burr, when we come right back.  


WALLACE:  Two weeks after a devastating terror attack in Paris, 150 world leaders, including President Obama, are now gathering in the French capital.  Their goal: to craft a landmark deal to fight global warming.  

This comes amid a worldwide travel alerts for American citizens, although the president says there's no specific threat at home this holiday weekend.  

Fox News correspondent Kevin Corke is in Paris ahead of tomorrow’s summit -- Kevin.  

KEVIN CORKE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Chris, good day to you.  

As you probably remember, back during the president’s recent tour of Asia, it was an economic tour, but clearly, global security and terrorism threatens to overshadow that and again threatens to overshadow this climate gathering in Paris.  

And given the events of the 13th of November -- to say nothing of the fact that we're going to be joined by dozens of world leaders here in Paris for this particular summit, the security footprint, the posture is immense.  And that should not surprise anyone.  

Climate policy is clearly a legacy item the White House wants to solidify for a president who has said previously that it poses an immediate risk to national security.  So, we should expect some sort of an accord for the countries gathered here, Chris, before the end of the conference, something actionable, not necessarily a treaty.  

Meanwhile, you should also expect the president to make use of the time in Paris to meet with Presidents Hollande of France and Putin of Russia, maybe even Erdogan of Turkey with ISIS and the Syrian conflict high on the agenda.  Of course, that's taken on a whole new level of importance in the wake of the Russian fighter aircraft being shut down by the Turks over complaints that the Russian aircraft violated Turkey's airspace.  

And you also probably remember, the folks at home certainly should remember -- that goes back to the talks about de-escalation.  We heard a lot about that, Chris, in the early fall, and so, expect the White House and the president's advisers in particular to try to tamp down the situation between Turkey and Russia, and hopefully take what is clearly a volatile situation back down to a manageable level -- Chris.  

WALLACE:  Kevin Corke, reporting live from Paris -- Kevin, thank you for that.  

Joining us from North Carolina, Richard Burr, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Chairman, as the busiest travel weekend of the year wraps up, is there any specific, credible threats against Americans to the best of your knowledge, either in this country or around the world?  

SEN. RICHARD BURR, R-N.C., CHAIR, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE:  Well, Chris, credible, specific -- no.  But for the past 12 months, there have been more threads of threats both here at home and around the world that we’ve seen since 9/11.  So, the risk remains high, but clearly, in the United States, the FBI has wrapped up over 67 individuals that were incarcerated this year and are either prosecuted or in the process of being prosecuted.  And that will continue.  

WALLACE:  How big an international footprint does ISIS have now?  How serious a threat in the U.S. and in other countries outside the Middle East?  

BURR:  Well, Chris, it's proven that ISIS is in 30 different countries, they control eight provinces of countries.  They've got a reach that goes throughout Europe and North America.  

So, to talk about containment is really a joke.  The reality is that ISIS may be geographically contained in Syria and Iraq, but their efforts around the world to project terrorism and to commit terrorism is as robust today as it's ever been.  

WALLACE:  Well, with that as a backdrop, Senator, at a news conference this week with French President Hollande, President Obama did not announce -- despite the attack in Mali, despite the attack in Paris -- did not announces in new steps in his war against ISIS, which raises the question: what’s your assessment of the president as current strategy, and how much do you think it can accomplish?  

BURR:  Well, we have no strategy.  I don't think you can find anybody in the world outside of the administration that could attempt to state what America’s strategy is.  

In the past three weeks, Chris, we've seen over 500 individuals killed around the world at the hands of ISIS.  I don’t think there’s any question of that.  And in Syria alone, we've had over 240,000 Syrians killed.  That's both by Assad and ISIS, and over 4 million refugees in flight.  

It's time for an international coalition to come in and arm groups like the Kurds to create a safe haven, a no-fly zone, where we can stop the refugee flight out of Syria.  But only with American leadership will that happen.  

And I hope that while the administration is in Paris, maybe they'll talk with President Hollande, who I think is committed to eliminate ISIS.  We’ve got to stop talking about containment and we’ve got to talk about elimination of the terrorist threat.  

WALLACE:  Meanwhile, Hollande after meeting with President Obama in Washington then flew to Moscow to meet with Russian President Putin.  

And here is what President Obama said about Putin:  


OBAMA:  Russia right now is a coalition of two, Iran and Russia, supporting Assad.  


WALLACE:  What's your best intelligence, Chairman Burr?  Can we count on Putin at all?  There's talk about a grand coalition.  At first, it seemed when Putin met with Hollande, there was a possibility he would join the coalition, then the Russians seemed to walk away from that.  

What's your sense of Putin's intentions?  

BURR:  Well, I think Putin’s intention is to prop up Assad.  That's always been his stated goal.  I don't think that we cannot remember that Putin invaded Crimea, currently prosecutes a border war in the Ukraine.  I’m not sure that Putin can be trusted.

But, Chris, let me make this fact: ISIS has to be eliminated.  I’m ready to put together whatever coalition is willing to attack ISIS and eliminate this terrorist threat.  That means Gulf state partners, it means European partners, it may mean Russia.

But Russia sure complicates the options we have in Syria, with the amount of aircraft, with the amount of arms that they have there.  If we can focus those on ISIS versus the moderate opposition forces that are trying to defeat Assad, we could make a real impact, but that's going to take a great deal of diplomacy that we have yet to see.  

WALLACE:  There's been some interesting developments on intelligence issues, really, in the last week.  I want to talk to you about those, sir.  

Today at midnight, the NSA's bulk data collection of America's phone records, that program expired as of last night, and now the NSA is going to need a court order from a judge to collect records on any American.  And again, we're not talking about the content of the phone call, simply my phone number called your phone number, and we spoke, or people on those two lines spoke for X number of minutes.  

What impact do you think that’s going to have on your counter-terrorism effort?  

BURR:  Chris, I don't think it's too troubling you would need a court order.  I think what's troubling is that you'll have to go to multiple telecom companies, and at their pace search their records, which means it could take weeks.  What we saw in Paris once we got a cell phone was that we used that cell phone number to look at cell phones it had talked to -- and not only Paris investigators but Belgian investigators were able to expand the search net in a way that stopped a massive terrorist attack, an additional one in Paris, potentially has led to the apprehension of at least a dozen, if not more, ISIS operatives throughout Belgium, Germany, and parts of Europe.  

I’m not sure that we know the full extent of what we’ve learned to this point, but any time you can take electronics and use those selectors, it's beneficial to the world's intelligence community.  And the United States made a real mistake when they eliminated this program where we could search foreign known terrorist' cell phones.  

But Congress took that away from the NSA, and, unfortunately, it's not going to be a timely tool to use in the future.  

WALLACE:  Well, let me pick up on that.  You have signed on to legislation that’s now in the Senate that would revive the program, which is I say ran out as of midnight, but the Senate just voted to end the program in June.  So, what are the chances that they're going to reverse that just a few months later?  

BURR:  Well, Chris, it's amazing what happens when people are reminded what terrorists can do.  It hadn’t happened here at home, but I think the American response to the Paris attack was as significant outside of New York and New Jersey as 9/11 was.  The American people recognize that the indiscriminate, brutal acts that ISIS carried out could happen in any community across this country and throughout the world.  

And I think as Americans, we believe we should do everything we can to eliminate that.  Knowing who the terrorists are and where operatives may be in the United States or something, Americans expect us to know, they expect us to investigate.  

I want to make sure that the tools that law enforcement have are as robust as they possibly can be, and metadata is a big contributor to that.  

WALLACE:  I want to get into one last issue with you.  There are several allegations into allegations that officers at the U.S. Central Command, the military operation that oversees the Middle East, were altering and doctoring the intelligence from their analysts to downplay the threat from ISIS.  I know you’ve talked to whistle-blowers.  I know there are several investigations going on in your committee, also the Pentagon inspector general.   

How substantial is the evidence that intelligence was doctored, sir?  

BURR:  Well, it's very concerning.  The whistle-blower that I’ve talked to was very compelling.  And, clearly, some of the information that's come out in the last seven days supported what that whistle-blower claimed.  

Any time we’ve got intelligence that may have been altered in some way, shape or form to fit a narrative that might be the narrative set by the White House is concerning to me.  To think that it could come from one of our combatant commands, in this case CentCom, is extremely troubling, because that changes really the risk that our combat forces might perceive, that they're going to be faced with in that combat theater.  

WALLACE:  Let me, let me pick --  

BURR:  So, I want to make sure that our -- yes, sure.

WALLACE:  Let me just pick up on that, if I can, sir, because this week, when faced with those allegations, President Obama denied that he had anything to do with that.  Take a look at what the president had to say.  


OBAMA:  One of the things I insisted on the day I walked into the Oval Office was that I don't want intelligence shaded by politics.  I don't want it shaded by the desire to tell a feel-good story.  


WALLACE:  Briefly, Senator, do you have any evidence the White House was involved in cooking the intelligence?  

BURR:  Chris, I don't, but we're going to look at the timeline very carefully to figure out whether the narrative was there before the intelligence backed it up.  We’ve got a case in Benghazi that’s currently under investigation, where we know that a narrative went out that was factually incorrect.  When all the facts on the ground said it was terrorism, we were out talking about a video.  

So, narrative has been something that this White House has run with before.  It concerns me now because Americans' lives are at stakes.  Our soldiers, our sailors, our airmen, our marines’ lives are at stake when we do this.  

WALLACE:  Chairman Burr, thank you.  Thanks for you your time on this holiday weekend, sir.  

BURR:  Thank you, Chris.  

WALLACE:  Up next, our Sunday Group joins the conversation on the increased terror threat, just as the government's bulk data collection of Americans phone records runs out.

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about keeping the homeland safe? Just go to Facebook or Twitter at "Fox News Sunday."  And we may use your question on the air.



SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  But if God forbid tomorrow morning there's a terrorist attack in the United States, the first question everyone is going to have is why didn't we know about it?  And why didn't we stop it?


WALLACE:  Senator Marco Rubio taking a swipe at the expiration today of the government's bulk data collection program as the U.S. and the world face an increase terror threat.  And it's time now for our Sunday group Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume, former Democratic congresswoman Jane Harman, director of the Woodrow Wilson Center.  Fox News chief Washington correspondent James Rosen, author of the new book, "Cheney One on One."  And Robert Costa from "The Washington Post."  Brit, it's an interesting confluence of events, the bulk data collection program of Americans phone records that we pointed out, ran out at midnight last night just as the State Department issues a worldwide travel alert for all Americans.  What do you make of those two things?

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST:  Well, and there's more to it than that.  Because this figures into Republican presidential campaign, because Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz are competing for some of the same voters and one of Rubio's talking points, reflected in part by the sound bite that you showed, is that Cruz voted to end this program.  So, you have that factor added in all of this as well.

My sense (INAUDIBLE) that we never did have a victim that came forward.  It was ever shown that there was one, of this program, and intelligence professionals such as Mike Hayden ...

WALLACE:  Former ...

HUME:  CIA director who'd been on this program many times, have insisted again and again that it was very useful and helpful.  And so I think it's fair to say that great many intelligence professionals said we're now without an effective tool for anticipating these terror attacks.

WALLACE:  Well, let me ask an intelligence professional, Congresswoman Harman.  You were the former top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee when you were in Congress.  Did you ever see evidence that the NSA abused its powers in collecting Americans' phone records?  And do you think the expiration of the program as of midnight will hurt our counter-terrorism effort?

JANE HARMAN, FMR. U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN:  Well, first of all, I supported the program.  I was briefed on it early in the Bush administration.  I thought that the legal underpinnings were weak, and in 2008, Congress made a big effort to put the whole program under law as part of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.  So, I voted for that.  This change came about after I left Congress -- I don't think because I left Congress, but there's been a lot of discontent after the Edward Snowden leaks, with the so-called invasion of privacy.  But the good news is this, first of all the program was not abused, second of all, the law that recently passed, which does change the program, doesn't eliminate it.  But third of all, we have other surveillance tools, which are lawful and which we continue to employ and a big chunk of those expires or sunsets in 2017.  By then I would hope that there would be a coalition that would understand the point of having robust and surveillance tools for our government given the terror threat.

WALLACE:  We asked you for questions for the panel.  And we got this on Facebook from Andrea Jamison.  She writes - "How can we trust the president with vetting refugees," talking clearly about the Syrian refugees, when he doesn't do anything about sanctuary cities and open borders?  James, how do you answer Andrea?

JAMES ROSEN, FOX NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT:  That's a good one, Andrea.  I would say that, look, the president is going to take a national security approach to the vetting of the refugees, perhaps more than he would with the immigration issue.  And that can be debated as to whether that's the right approach.  I do want to pick up on one other point from our discussion here.  On the same day when President Obama was in Antalya, Turkey, giving his fuller set of remarks about the Paris attacks, you'll recall he famously got irritated by the questions from the reporters saying that's a variation on the same question.  He was then essentially telling us the strategy against ISIS is working more or less.  It's making progress.  It's set back.  It's going to take some time.  At the same day, on the very same day we had John Brennan, director of CIA, telling us at the CSIS audience the two things were occurring.  Number one, the terrorists are going to school on new inscription technologies.  That's the word he used, going to school.  Secondly, post Edward Snowden, collection efforts are restricted.  So, here you have the president saying, in essence, the strategy is working, give it time.  Here you have John Brennan saying the terrorists, in essence, are getting the upper hand, because they are getting better inscription technologies and our hands are being tied behind our backs.  Those were not consonant messages from the president and his CIA director.

WALLACE:  Robert, I want to switch to an issue of domestic violence, if not domestic terrorism, and that was a deadly attack on Friday at the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, in which a gunman killed one police officer and two civilians.  It is unclear, although, he did talk about no more baby parts, it's unclear what his motive was, but do you think this will fire up the political debate about abortion and about gun control?

ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST:  On gun control, I do not.  Based on my reporting, there's no political capital within the Congress, a Republican congress, to move forward on gun control.  In some swings states like Pennsylvania, Senator Pat Toomey, who's up for re-election, he's talked around background checks, but most of the other Republicans who are running next year aren't pushing for it.  On abortion, we've seen the House Republicans go hard after Planned Parenthood with investigations.  There still remains an anti-abortion party.  I don't see that changing, though the pitch and tone may change in light of these attacks.  We saw Senator Cruz in Iowa over the weekend offer his condolences to the victims.

WALLACE:  And what about the Democrats?  Do you see them changing their position at all on either issue?

COSTA:  Especially on gun control.  Democrats who are running for the Senate, for governor, are taking their cues from the president.  And he has urged Congress to act more on gun control.  We could see this become a key issue.  I'm looking especially at New Hampshire, with Kelly Ayotte, she's up for reelection next year.  She did not back -- for the Senate, and in the presidential race, Hillary Clinton has been a staunch advocate for more gun control, but she doesn't really have a competitive primary.  I don't see it becoming central.

WALLACE:  I want to talk about one other interesting development this week.  That we had major protests in Chicago over the release of a video, and also over the charging of a white police officer with first-degree murder a year after he allegedly shot an unarmed -- well, no, he had a knife, but no gun, young black teenager 16 times.  What was most interesting about the protest was that they were clearly heartfelt and they clogged the Magnificent Mile, the downtown shopping area of Chicago, as you can see.  They were also peaceful.  

HUME:  They were peaceful, and in addition to that, they had a point, which was why did it take a year for this video to surface?  And the suspicion, of course, is that at the time that the incident occurred and the video was made that Mayor Rahm Emanuel was up for reelection and didn't want to have this surface with all the potential trouble it could cause.  Eventually, it seems the right thing was done.  The video is pretty graphic.  It's pretty clear that he didn't need to shoot that guy 16 times, if at all.  And the guy has been charged with murder, which seems like an appropriate charge, but the delay is a problem.  The protests were indeed peaceful, but I wonder if there would have been protests even on this scale had the video come out at the time and the charge of murder been lodged at the time.  Remember what happened in Tennessee when something like this occurred, and the response was immediate.  Was it Tennessee or South Carolina?  I'm not -- I don't recall right at the moment, but there was a police shooting, remember the guy who was shot dead in the park with the cop chasing after him.  He was immediately charged, and the community rallied.  I'm not sure they would have rallied as much in Chicago.

WALLACE:  It is kind of astonishing, when the tape seems to incriminating, that it would take - I think it was 13 months.

HUME:  Yes.

WALLACE:  ... to charge this individual officer.  

HUME:  Yeah, it's hard to explain that.  

Panel, we have to take a break here.  When we come back, the two front-runners in the Republican presidential race trying to deal with some self-inflicted wounds.


WALLACE:  The GOP presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson meeting with Syrian refugees in Jordan, following weeks of questions about his foreign policy credentials.  And we are back now with the panel.  

So Dr. Carson on a two-day trip to Jordan now says that those refugees should stay in camps in Jordan, or someplace else in the Middle East, with increased aid from the West, but should not be brought to the U.S.  

Brit, does his 48 hours in the Middle East solve Ben Carson's commander in chief issue?  

HUME:  I don't think it solves it, but I think it probably helps.  I think it was wise of him to go there, be seen there, as in the video you just showed, and of course the remedy that he suggests is one that is likely to be popular among Republican primary voters.  That is don't bring them here, but help them there.  Which now he can say that he came to that conclusion by virtue of his visit there, but it happens also to be a politically convenient position to take.  So I think it probably helps a bit, yes.  

WALLACE:  Congresswoman Harman, fair to say you're a long-time Democrat.  If the world stays, the world situation is ugly as it is, with the spread of ISIS, the threat of ISIS spreading, and the civil war in Syria continuing, what impact will that have on Hillary Clinton as a political candidate?  Will her foreign policy credentials, will her ties to Obama be a plus or a minus?    

HARMAN:  I think it will help anybody, and there are people who are running in the Republican Party too, who are responsible and serious thinkers about foreign policy.  It will not help people who make outrageous comments about keep all the Muslims out of the United States and build walls everywhere.  And so I think it will help her, but I think it could help responsible Republicans as well.  

Let me just say one thing about the Carson visit.  What's wrong with the million refugees in Jordan and refugees hemorrhaging around Syria is all those countries are now destabilized.  We should understand that ISIS wants its caliphate for the moment to be in Raqqah, Syria, but now there are rumors that it could move to Libya, another failing state or almost failed state.  And Yemen is a failed state.  And all of these places are ripe for this civil war within radical Sunni Islam.  

WALLACE:  I just want to pick up on the Clinton question, because the polls indicate by a very wide margin, people do not think this president has a handle on ISIS, did not think he's being aggressive enough in fighting terrorism.  She was the secretary of state and the architect of much of this for the first four years of Obama's term.  You really don't think this will impact her?  

HARMAN:  Sure.  People will try to connect her to parts of Obama's policies that haven't succeed, but it's been public knowledge that she was for the limited bombing in Syria, which Dave Petraeus, who also served Obama, was for, which I'm -- personally was for.  And I think that will be viewed as a major strategic mistake of the Obama presidency.  

WALLACE:  Meanwhile, Republican front runner Donald Trump, as we mentioned earlier with Carly Fiorina, created another major controversy for himself when he seemed to mock a reporter with serious physical disabilities.  Take another look.  


TRUMP:  He's going, I don't remember, maybe that's what I said.  This is 14 years ago.  He still -- they didn't do a retraction.  


WALLACE:  Trump told a rally yesterday, James, that he would never make fun of someone, and in fact that the reporter and the New York Times are exploiting this situation and this misunderstanding.  We have been thinking for a long period of time that Trump was going to be saying something that would be over the line.  Is this the one?  

ROSEN:  Probably not.  Donald Trump is new to the political arena in the sense of campaigns and elections.  He's not new by any means to media and messaging and manipulation of the media.  And I think that the greater threat to Donald Trump's candidacy will not be displays of his eccentricities, such as this, or getting into fights with John McCain or Megyn Kelly or the rest of it.  

The greatest threat to Donald Trump's viability is the descent into conventionality.  And when that happens, that's when his numbers will drop.  

WALLACE:  There does not seem to be much danger of that in the immediate future.  

ROSEN:  Given the animal, yes.  

WALLACE:  Brit, your thoughts about Trump and this latest display?  

HUME:  It was pretty crude and pretty obvious what he was doing.  For him to come out and then say, oh no, I would never mock someone's disability is an almost self-evident whopper, but I must say the striking thing about the Trump people is, the Trump supporters, is nothing seems to matter.  I think they have proved Abraham Lincoln right when he said that you can fool some of the people all of the time.  He's doing it.  

WALLACE:  Perhaps the most important development this week, certainly one of the most interesting was a new Quinnipiac poll.  Take a look at it.  In Iowa, which now shows that Texas Senator Ted Cruz has doubled his support in the last month.  And as you can see is in in a statistical dead heat with Donald Trump, while Ben Carson has fallen quite a bit in Iowa.  

Robert, we've been waiting a long time to see whether or not the two front-runners were going to lose altitude.  Is this it?  

COSTA:  I just got back from a few days in Iowa, and I followed Senator Cruz around.  You can see the surge up close, people, the evangelical base are turning away from Carson.  They still respect him and still like him, but they see Cruz as a credible outsider, someone who can perhaps go the distance, and Cruz is a political athlete.  I was with him at a faith forum.  He stayed until nearly midnight, shaking hands, talking to voters an hour after his speech had ended.  This is someone who's going to be having 17 or 18 stops today and tomorrow in Iowa.  He's making a play for that state, making a play for super Tuesday.  If Trump or Carson fall, for some reason, Cruz will be there to pick up some support.  

WALLACE:  Let me pick up on a couple of aspects of that.  First of all, to the degree that there's any turning away from Carson, why is it?  

COSTA:  It's because of foreign policy.  I have spoken to Carson's campaign manager, Barry Bennett.  He's with Carson in Jordan right now.  They know this is a vulnerability.  They're trying to address it.  

WALLACE:  And as far as Cruz is concerned, we hear big aggressive ground game, lots of money, he can play the role -- he's the senator, but as the insider's outsider.  How is all of that working?  And how does it look up close?   

COSTA:  Cruz is not banking everything on Iowa.  He's playing for March 1st, the super Tuesday states, those Southern states, Alabama, he's looking even to Massachusetts, places you're not really thinking about as key primary states.  Cruz has an organization there looking for the long haul.  

WALLACE:  What about the other candidates?  Who's got -- particularly in Iowa.  That's the first one.  Who's got a strong ground game there, and who of the leading candidates doesn't?  

COSTA:  Trump actually has a stronger ground game than most people realize.  He has Santorum's former adviser helping him out.  Carson has such a grass-roots network at his base.  What's really going to help Cruz or Carson, Huckabee, Santorum, they're still in the race, they are still splitting that Tea Party, evangelical vote.  Until they get out, it is going to remain crowded.  

WALLACE:  The other interesting development, just late this week, Brit, is Chris Christie, who got the endorsement of the Manchester Union Leader and seems to be getting some traction in New Hampshire, where obviously his campaign was in some trouble.  But he seems to be picking up some steam there.

HUME:  He seems to be going nowhere in Iowa, which doesn't hurt in New Hampshire.  New Hampshire voters have a long history of reacting negatively to people who come in with a head of steam from Iowa, so that's actually a kind of a plus for him.  And I think, you know, he may be about to have a moment here, as candidates sometimes do.  He's campaigned intensely in the state, and his bluff style I think has some traction there.  So I wouldn't be surprised to see him make a move, too.  This race is still a jumble.  

HARMAN:  It's a year away, all of this helps Hillary Clinton.  It's a race for the soul of the Republican Party, and if it's a populist, right-wing soul, I think she wins.  

WALLACE:  Well, it's not a year away for Iowa, though.  It's less than 70 days.  Thank you, panel.  See you next Sunday.  Thanks for coming in on this holiday weekend.  Up next, our power player of the week. Once again, yes, once again, I dance with the turkeys.  


WALLACE:  The arrival of the official Christmas tree at the White House.  This year's tree comes from a farm in Lansdale, Pennsylvania.  

Well, here is a holiday riddle we ask every Thanksgiving.  Who founded a huge tech company, created a successful cosmetic business, and now raises turkeys like the Indians did?  Here's our power player of the week.  


SANDY LERNER, AYRSHIRE FARMS:  Farm with the land, farm with the season, know your soil, know your rainfall, know your weather, know your animals.  

WALLACE:  Sandy Lerner is talking about sustainable farming, raising livestock and growing vegetables without the chemicals that are so common in what she calls factory farming.  Just days before Thanksgiving, she took me out to see and, yes, to dance, with her 1,300 turkeys, heritage breeds that trace back to the Indians.  

LERNER:  Come on, raise your arms.  Gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble!  

WALLACE:  Lerner is mistress of Ayrshire Farms, 800 acres in Upperville, Virginia.  But as interesting as her business is how she got here.  She grew up on a farm in California, making enough from raising cattle to send herself to college.  

LERNER:  What I learned was to love work.  I'm really happiest when I'm engaged in working, and thinking and striving.  

WALLACE:  She got into computers.  In 1984, she and her then husband started Cisco Systems.  They found a way to link networks of computers, the foundation of the Internet, but six years later venture capital people were running Cisco.  

WALLACE:  How do you get fired from a company that you started?  

LERNER:  We just basically got taken to the cleaners.  And part of that was if you don't have an employment contract -- I got fired by the same guy who fired Steve Jobs.  


WALLACE:  Lerner had a second act.  She started a cosmetics company called Urban Decay, with edgy colors for women like her.  And in 1996, she bought Ayrshire Farm.  

LERNER:  It's historically been people who had disposable income who made strides in farming, look at George Washington or look at Thomas Jefferson.  

You're such a pretty girl.  Pretty is as pretty does.  

WALLACE:  She raises shires, warhorses that go back centuries.  Scotch Highland cattle, and those turkeys, which she says taste better because of the lives they lead.  

WALLACE:  How much is an Ayrshire turkey cost as compared to what I get in the grocery store?

LERNER:  Well, our turkeys are expensive, they are between, I think they're running this year about $160 to $200.  

WALLACE:  At those prices, there are questions about how to make this kind of farming profitable.  But while Lerner is determined to run a sound business, it's not just about the bottom line.  

There's a 40-room mansion on the farm.  What's it like living there?  

LERNER:  I don't know.  

WALLACE: What do you mean?

LERNER:  I live in a little log cabin and I love it.

WALLACE:  Do you think you are a big eccentric?   

LERNER:  I am now that I'm rich.  I used to just be weird.  

WALLACE:  And so just days before Thanksgiving, Sandy Lerner and I danced with the turkeys.  She grew up on a family farm, and she wants to see those values live on.  

LERNER:  I'm a cow girl.  I can tell what cows are thinking.  It's very much my success as a farmer, which is what George Washington was.  He wanted to be a really good farmer.  And I think I've been, I've become a good farmer.  


WALLACE:  Sandy Lerner sold more than 800 turkeys this Thanksgiving.  She donated more than 200 to local charities.  

That's it for today.  Have a great week.  We'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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