This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 24, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Eric Bolling along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. Today is a special day. It's our 1,000th show. Thank you all for tuning in over the last four years. We look forward to the next, I don't know, thousand or two shows. It's five o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."
Tempers and passions are heating up in America. Are we reaching a breaking point in American race relations? Perhaps, we are. The controversy over the Confederate flag is growing rather than subsiding. Check out these pictures and statues, pictures of statues and monuments being defaced. A monument in Baltimore dedicated to Confederate soldiers gets painted over with Black Lives Matter and a statue in Charleston defaced with the same slogan. The sad reality is that America is not racist, but that's not the message being received by the race industry, maybe because the liberal media promotes racial tensions because it's good for their dwindling ratings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANDFIELD, CNN HOST: Jefferson owned slaves. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, third president of the United States. And there's a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. That no one ever asks for that to come down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLING: How did this become so big? How is it -- why is it expanding so extensively?
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: But let me just say that, it was just absurd. That was madness. She is analogizing something that happened in the colonial period when slavery was legal and part of the United States. And the man, Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers and an absolute brilliant man in terms of his writings, his work and establishing a democratic process. I don't see how she would analogize that to what happening today or what happened in the 1960s with the Confederate flag that was used to defy the will of the U.S. government and the Supreme Court. When you ask me, though, in response to your question, why is this happening now? Obviously, there's a lot of energy about what happened in Charleston, the shootings. And there are a lot of people who on the left, you know, I'm going to just be straight with you. A lot of people on the left are taking advantage of the opportunity. That's a reality. I mean, I don't think -- I didn't see these people 10 days ago, saying anything about Jefferson Davis Highway or all the monuments in Richmond. You know, people just said well, that's the political reality of the time. It's not going away.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yes.
BOLLING: Mississippi is addressing it, Alabama is addressing it. The Citadel.
BOLLING: The Citadel has decided to take their symbol which is actually a navy jet, but it looks like the Confederate flag. So they're taking that down as well. Are they going too far?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I mean is it for good? Is it for now? Is it, you know I mean, I'm just curious as to kind of this ripple effect, this going to like domino effect of trying to correct the record a little Todd LaRosa going on now. So, I don't know, they have to make the decisions with confidence.
Perhaps, they're doing that. Maybe they're going to be permanent decisions, but there's a lot of a synergy going in this direction. There's a lot of momentum. So right now, you're seeing a little bit of snowball effect. And how far is they going to go? That's what I'm curious to see.
BOLLING: You know, Greg, a lot of the State Houses, these governors are making at their going out of their way to pre-empt even votes within the state and removing some of these flags. What are we -- are we going to do this for street names, for building names? Where does it end?
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: I think the issue is you have to understand, are we reacting for genuine sensitivity? You know, the fact is a lot of people are made uncomfortable by this flag. But then there are a lot of people who are preoccupied with shaming the past. There's a large group of activists and academics whose lives -- whose present lives are so boring, that they have to look to the past to correct injustices. That frankly, a lot of people do not pay attention to outside of the media and outside of some angry pockets, which is manufactured outrage. However, and I said this before, I sit here a lot and I talked about the division on the left, how the left foments division. I would be a hypocrite if I said that the state, that the flag in a state setting isn't equally as divisive. It makes people genuinely uncomfortable that. Doesn't mean you can't fly it.
You can fly it wherever you want. You just can't fly it on the state. You can have it in your apartment, in your front yard, not on a government setting. Then that leads to the next question. Does removing the flag create a step towards unifying and divisive country? I would like to think so, but I don't think it will because I think.
BOLLING: Why not though? Well, I think it should.
GUTFELD: Because I think its part of a constant outrage that will never be sated, will never be satisfied. It will keep going, it will keep going.
Maybe, it will make some people happy. And maybe it's the right thing to do. But I'm so cynical about it. I really do think we're being chased by outrage terminators. They're just looking for anything.
BOLLING: Dana, take it one step further. Not only are State Houses doing it. Amazon, Sears, eBay, Etsy, they are all pulling the Confederate memorabilia preemptively. It said we don't want this hassle. Is that enough?
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, I think we'd all agree. So the free market will determine, right? So if these private businesses decide that is not a product we want to sell, OK. That's fine. I mean, there might be other companies that decide that they want to sell it and there might be
-- I mean, I think that you can actually be a student of American history and love American history and understand it and accept it for all of its faults and flaws. That's what a mature country can do, which is to say, I think there is a difference about flying the flag at the State House today, with that. Remember the comingled funds I was talking about? Versus talking about trying to wipe out an entire country's history, which is I think actually, we benefit from learning about that history. And Charleston, I thought was a great example of a city that actually has had to work harder than almost any other. To try to unite through interfaith efforts, their business efforts, education efforts, and they actually taught us a huge lesson. So I think that a mature country can accept the idea that the flag should come down. But talking about destroying the Thomas Jefferson Memorial.
PERINO: In Washington, D.C. and obviously, going a little too far.
BOLLING: And the University of Texas, Austin, they defaced a couple of statues there as well. You know, the Governor Haley, the governors of Alabama and Mississippi said they're addressing it. Why are these defacing of statues going on? Isn't -- my point is, as Greg points out, doesn't matter what you do, there's going to be a whole group of people who are just -- who are hungry for race tensions.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think Greg and I disagree on one point, which is, I'm more of an optimist than you are. I think that if you take away some of these symbols, I think that does help to bring about some sense of unity in the country. I thought the Confederate flag was a very divisive symbol for a very long time.
WILLIAMS: But -- Ok, so he'll take it down. So you're saying, oh, but we'll never stop being chased by the bad guys, who are always going to say, Juan and Eric and Greg and Dana, Kim.
GUTFELD: Some people, as long as they believe that our past.
GUTFELD: Is a corrupt one.
GUTFELD: Nothing will ever suffice. I agree.
GUILFOYLE: That's what I'm saying.
GUTFELD: I agree with you that, for you it's a divisive thing.
WILLIAMS: Very much.
GUTFELD: How can you escape that?
GUTFELD: You can't.
WILLIAMS: And I don't want it my face.
WILLIAMS: And I don't want it in my face when I'm going into a government building.
WILLIAMS: That's not the symbol of my government.
GUTFELD: Yeah. That's why it took it down out of my bedroom.
WILLIAMS: Oh, say what I saying.
GUILFOYLE: Want to appreciate that.
WILLIAMS: What about the tri-colored hat?
GUILFOYLE: I would appreciate that.
WILLIAMS: Can we work on the hat?
GUTFELD: Only on Sunday.
GUILFOYLE: But you have said about Washington too, right? And this started as well with mascot. We saw this movement and this progression.
BOLLING: I don't know if it ever ended. I mean, its thing to the next, the next story that you can apply race too. OK. Let's do this. South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, all making arrangements to accommodate the groups who want the Confederate battle flags removed from public buildings. But where will it stop? Rush worries it may go too far.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW RADIO HOST: I'll make another prediction to you. The next flag that will come under assault and it will not be long is the American flag. If you take a look at the timeline of progression of events, there's speed and rapidity with which the left is conducting this assault on all of these American traditions and institutions. If you don't think the American flag's in their cross hairs down the road, you had better stop and reconsider.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLING: Well, K.G., when did we hear that, yesterday.
GUILFOYLE: I don't know, yeah. Like Rush Limbaugh on match.com now I think.
GUILFOYLE: Lining up our thoughts.
WILLIAMS: He thinks he still lucky.
GUILFOYLE: You should know. Yeah, I mean, well, I thought -- I said Laura Ingraham, we were talking about it on Monday night. And my point is, when it's going to be enough? And Greg is saying that too. It is the second insatiable appetite to try and correct the record or get it right or make sure the people aren't in offended. I'm not saying this particular instance with the Confederate flag isn't the right thing to do, but where does it stop? How far do you go? Because today, we're talking about Thomas Jefferson, tomorrow we're talking about our flag.
GUTFELD: But I did to me, this is absurd. And I think this is where the left and the right often mirror each other. They're going to take our flags is like a leftist saying they're going to take our birth control pills.
It's a fear tactic. And I do, I do think they we're combining issues. The Confederate flag speaks to a specific division. I think what Rush and conservatives are focusing on is that there seems to be a crusade against our common past. And when you see the Confederate flag being attacked, you extrapolate it to the American flag. I don't think they're right. I don't think, I think it's absurd to his -- you would think that the American flag is going away, that's like a leftist saying they're going to take my birth control pills.
GUILFOYLE: I hope you're right for once. And I saw you going in my purse earlier.
GUTFELD: But other things.
BOLLING: One of the most -- I guess appalling thing that's coming out of this is that there are a lot on the left, a lot of -- I guess you'd call them provocateurs, unless saying that Dylann Roof represents the white attitude in America.
WILLIAMS: This is insane. Look, this is.
BOLLING: You heard this, right?
GUILFOYLE: That's absurd too.
WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I haven't heard that. He represents all white people?
BOLLING: Well, yeah. That's a -- if you don't call Dylann Roof specifically a racist, you are part of the problem.
WILLIAMS: But he is a racist.
BOLLING: And I -- we've done that here. But in other words, people who may not want to go ahead and say that or.
WILLIAMS: Well, you mean.
BOLLING: Doesn't make them racist.
WILLIAMS: Oh you mean, wait, wait, wait. You mean like the republican candidates who were all stumbling and mumbling and not quite sure how to handle this because they didn't want to offend anybody in the electorate, right?
WILLIAMS: Well, that's a problem because that looks like people who like principles, to me. I don't know how it strikes the conservative around the table, but if you said to me something horrific about you or Dana, Greg, I would say, what are you talking about?
GUILFOYLE: How about me?
BOLLING: And Dana, there were a lot.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, definitely you. I mean.
BOLLING: There was a lot of hemming and hawing on whether or not people in politics would say, they would want the Confederate flag coming down from State Houses as well. Should they have to -- as we talked about yesterday, should they have to stake their claim on where they are?
PERINO: I think, I mean, it happened fast, but they're being asked to make a decision.
PERINO: And to announce it. And Nikki Haley, as we said yesterday, she led the way with her position and it prevailed in her state. And that is compelling action across. Now, some republican candidates are going to say, well, you know, let me just take a minute to think about the state's rights issue here. But I don't think this is a tough call to make.
WILLIAMS: I mean it has it, pat (ph) it to Mitt Romney. I mean, he was -- I think he was in the lead on this, right?
BOLLING: Yeah, he did.
BOLLING: So take the flag down.
BOLLING: All right. We're going to leave it there.
Next, the details of Freddie Gray's unreleased autopsy have been leaked.
His cause of death revealed what with the coroner determined and what it means for the case against the six officers charged, coming up next.
GUILFOYLE: OK. I'm going to tune it for that.
GUILFOYLE: Freddie Gray died from injuries, suffered while taken into custody on April 12th. His autopsy report has not been made public. But results have just been leaked to the Baltimore Sun. According to the paper, the medical examiner concluded that Gray suffered a high energy injury, most likely caused when the police van he was riding in suddenly slowed down. His death was ruled a homicide because officers failed to follow safety procedures through quote, "acts of omission." Do these results strengthen or weaken the prosecution's case against the six officers that have been charged? Even a defense attorney admits it's the latter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARTHUR AIDALA, FOX NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: Can you get a conviction on what they are saying here? In my opinion you cannot. In my opinion, ladies and gentlemen of the audience, what should happen here is, this case should go before a judge, a judge who uses common sense, and reads this homicide report, looks at the totality of the circumstances. These facts do not support a charge of depraved-heart murder. Where is the depravity? Because a police officer driving a van took a turn a little too hard or decelerated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Well, that, ladies and gentlemen, is the president of the Brooklyn Bar Association, Arthur Aidala and a criminal defense attorney. I agree with him. We are in accord on this. We concur because this is not going to be enough in my opinion to rise to the level of implied malice murder. To say that you acted in conscious disregard of a known risk that you knew would result in death. Meaning, I'm going to get this kind of guy in the back of the car, I'm going to do it like this and I'm going to kill him. That is not the way the law is going to -- I don't know. I mean, maybe they're going to have a jury that just wants to have some kind of specific political outcome. I doubt it. I also think there should be a change of venue and to preserve the record for the prosecution because there will be one of the biggest grounds on appeal for poisoning the pool.
PERINO: Can I ask you a question? You know I keep doing this to you on legal segments, where I should be answering question about a question for you.
GUILFOYLE: Quite good at you.
PERINO: So, it was only one of the six that was charged with the depraved heart.
PERINO: Now, but all six of them are charged in the killings. Does this only affect that one person? Or would it apply more broadly?
GUILFOYLE: It's going to apply more broadly to the rest of the individuals, but it applies most specifically to the implied malice murder charge. To say that this individual and there was a lot of criticism as you remember, right off the top when this happened that that was really overreaching, that this was a case of perhaps overpromising, under delivering, that could also create unrest in the community. You want them to do their job and be fair when they prosecute this, but go through all the facts and all the evidence and they charged this case really quickly especially for that heavy of a charge. Greg?
GUTFELD: It's -- but this is law enforcement with a studio audience. It's too late to assess this case objectively. We realize that the media and the mob was going to -- is going to hold sway over the truth. And I don't -- I think that it doesn't really matter what's in the autopsy at this point, right?
GUILFOYLE: Well, perhaps. I mean, you're supposed to get, you know.
GUILFOYLE: Fair and impartial jury to judge this case and evaluate the evidence, but it may not even get to that. Maybe a judge is going to reduce this charge or throw that top charge out.
BOLLING: And therein lies the problem with the rush to the charges.
GUILFOYLE: Segment, yeah.
BOLLING: She charged them very aggressively, right?
BOLLING: And she charged them very quickly before. Maybe a lot of the -- some of the evidence was in. Maybe before this evidence was in. Maybe she had this evidence before she charged them. She may not have gone so aggressively. Here's the problem. Let just say a judge does -- forget that.
Let just say it goes to a trial and they get acquitted on the highest charges and they get -- I don't know, some sort of manslaughter charges because they didn't mean to kill the guy, they just want to give him a rough ride. What's the fallout in Baltimore going to be? What are the people going to say, you don't have our back, you said you had our back and you let this guys go. We thought we were getting murder convictions. I can foresee more Baltimore unrest based on her rush to charge.
GUILFOYLE: That's what I'm saying. Marilyn Mosby. Yeah.
WILLIAMS: I don't see that. But I will say I was very curious about this because it looked to me like, we don't know if he was injured before he got in the van or after he got in the van. Remember, he was -- they put him on his belly in the back of the van. He couldn't even put him standing, or he couldn't walk into the van, OK? And then, the theory here is that he stood up in the van, his legs are shackled and he has this awkward fall where he can't cushion the fall and then he suffers the injury. But Michael Baden was also on the Kelly File last night and he said, you know, this man was in the hospital for seven days afterwards, before he died. There's all sorts of testing that has not been released about what was his condition, what was the injury to the spine, how did it occur. And I think there's a lot more to be said. But on the basis of justice, I would agree with you guys. This is a weak case.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, they also have to prove that specifically, they were not properly restraining him that would have caused this injury. Therefore, the result in his death and they knew that would be the case if they behaved like that.
WILLIAMS: No, but Eric said, it was -- maybe they gave -- they wanted to give him a rough ride, actually.
WILLIAMS: But it would be negligence.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, well that's what I'm saying. This is implied malice that they can deprave heart homicide. It's pretty bad. Anyway, we got to move it.
It was an emotional day inside a courtroom in Boston as well. Two dozen survivors of the 2013 marathon bombing and family members of victims were able to address killer Dzhokhar Tsarnaev before he was formally sentenced to death. And then Tsarnaev addressed them and apologized. He also asked Allah to have mercy on him. Here was a prosecutor following the proceedings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARMEN ORTIZ, U.S. ATTORNEY: The judge formally imposed his sentence of the death penalty for certain counts as well as then consecutive life sentences. We believe that at the end of the day, the punishment that was rendered by the jury appropriately fitted the crime. A crime of terrorism, a crime that was not religiously motivated and a crime that was intended to coerce and intimidate our country. But the response has been otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Her comments, Eric, you're shaking your head.
BOLLING: Yeah, not religiously motivated.
BOLLING: Like you said, you know, praise Allah after he was sentenced to death. I will have to push back on that and -- yeah, all right, good riddance. See you later Joker, bye.
GUILFOYLE: Right. Juan?
WILLIAMS: You know, I was amazed, I mean, I think he was on the script. And so it was a surprise to me that he starts talking about Allah because that brought up -- I think that his connection to terrorist networks that know -
- that supposedly he and his brother were plugging into on the internet.
They were tied into the Islamic extremists in this world. I don't see, so I don't know. I mean, he must have gone off script. Otherwise, the lawyer was.
WILLIAMS: Not a good lawyer.
PERINO: Well, when he did -- he chose not to speak in his trial. And I think that was right. I don't -- I didn't find this persuasive from him today.
GUILFOYLE: At all.
PERINO: That was cold.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. Sometimes sorry isn't good enough. This is one of those instances. And he's getting exactly what he deserves. I'm glad we have the death penalty in this case. Anything?
GUTFELD: Yeah, my condolences obviously go out to Jann Wenner, the publisher of Rolling Stones, this is a tough time for him. He's losing what his famous pinup. Who's going to keep him company on his bedroom ceiling?
The sooner this piece of filth is expelled from this planet, the better spit him out into a universe of soulless oblivion. Let him float forever.
GUILFOYLE: OK, that was.
GUTFELD: In darkness.
GUTFELD: I'm not done.
PERINO: And in pain?
GUTFELD: In pain.
BOLLING: Bearded versions?
GUTFELD: More like it.
GUILFOYLE: Next on The Five, Megyn Kelly is going to join us of a preview of a big interview airing tonight, on The Kelly File. Plus, a major shift in America's policy on hostages, all coming up.
PERINO: After she refused to convert to Islam. Her former co-worker tried to behead her, after he decapitated another employee. Now she's telling her story for the first time to Fox News. Megyn Kelly got an exclusive interview with Traci Johnson on the horrific attack at the Vaughn Foods plant in Oklahoma this past September and it airs tonight at 9 p.m.
Eastern. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, THE KELLY FILE SHOW HOST: So he got to you. And what happened next?
TRACI JOHNSON, SURVIVOR OF AN ATTEMPT BEHEADING IN OKLAHOMA: He started slicing my neck. And got hold of my face and got hold of my right index finger, and wouldn't stop. And I'm screaming for help and didn't think anybody was going to come around.
KELLY: Do you think that he was trying to decapitate you?
JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am.
KELLY: He was actually in the process of beheading you?
JOHNSON: Yes. He got a millimeter away from my jugular cord.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: Megyn joins us now with more on what we see later. That is obviously compelling. Take us into that moment when you get a chance to talk to her for the first time because she's never told her story before.
KELLY: That's right. She hasn't spoken to anybody. So she comes into the studio. And tonight, when you see the piece at the top of the show, we're going to open it with a taped package that sort of brings the audience up to speed on this is the story and so on. So, before interviewing her we aired it. We played it. And just so she could see what was preceding her.
We didn't get 15 seconds into it before she burst out into tears because she saw his picture, the picture of Alton Nolen. She still cannot see his face. And of course I said stop, we don't need to show that anymore.
And that's the mental frame that she is still in. And you can see the scars on her neck, on her face, on her hand. The defensive wound from where she tried to protect herself. This woman had been working there for four days.
Four days. And she talks about how she heard the scuffle in the next room.
She heard the screams of her co-worker. She went into the room right after the murder had taken place. And you didn't think she was next. It didn't occur to her. She didn't know who it was at that point it was this person she had an altercation with that morning.
But, by the way, he had been trying to convert people at the food processing plant, but the argument she had with him was over. She told him he was lazy and he told her he hates white people. That's why they had their conflict. And it's also why the police ultimately ruled that this was a racism thing, not a terrorism thing. But, with the audience is going to get a chance to hear her story and weigh. Whether they think his racist comment that morning should outweigh the fact that right before he stuck a knife in Traci Johnson's neck, he was screaming Arabic phrases at her. He had been trying to convert people in the workplace to Islam.
KELLY: He had been radicalized in prison. His Facebook page shows celebrated the World Trade Center. It had pictures of bin Laden. It had picture of beheaded bodies, which he celebrated, again. He attended a very controversial mosque at which Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker, had attended that has been under the eye of the FBI.
Why were they so quick to say, just because it happened in a workplace, and the man had made one racist comment that morning, that this is racism and a workplace thing, as opposed to self-radicalized terror?
WILLIAMS: What difference does it make?
KELLY: It matters, Juan, because we need to know what -- what we're looking at.
WILLIAMS: No, no, no. But isn't the charge the same?
KELLY: No. This is not being treated as a terror case. The FBI is not treating it as a terror case; they're not charging terror. It's being handled as a murder case, except Nolan is alive. He was shot but alive, down in Oklahoma.
GUTFELD: Surprising they didn't do workplace violence.
KELLY: That is what they determined. That is what they said. It's a lot like Fort Hood. I mean, even at Fort Hood, you had the shooter communicating with Anwar al-Awlaki, and that still wasn't good enough for terror.
This guy wasn't communicating with any jihadists overseas, but you take one look at that Facebook page, it doesn't take a whole lot of math to figure out what was going on in his head.
But her story, it's interesting, because here we are, a week after South Carolina, where we're talking about extremists in the United States. And the "New York Times" has an article, front-page article today talking about extremism in the United States. And how there are so many more so-called right-wing extremists. You know, Skinheads, white supremacists, that kind of thing, than there are Islamic extremists.
But you've got a case like this that isn't charged as terror. In their stats that they reference this one is counted as an Islamic extremist. But officially, it's not being treated that way. And it's so rare to have somebody who has actually been the victim of one of these people, A, live to tell about it and then, B, choose to do so. Think of the courage it's taking for her, understanding the state of our country today and the radicals who are out there, to go on camera and talk about it.
BOLLING: And that's what I'd like to ask you, Megyn. We -- you know, from a TV perspective, you've had some really, really high-profile interviews lately. How does that interview happen?
KELLY: So we reached out to her right after it happened in September. And our viewers may remember it was the first beheading on American soil.
First one. When her co-worker had her, you know, head severed. We reached out to her then, saying, "Will you please come on," the woman who survived.
And she couldn't and wouldn't and wasn't prepared to.
And then she and her friends saw the Duggars' interview and got back in touch with us and said, "All right, we'll do it."
BOLLING: Fantastic. Great work.
GUILFOYLE: I think it's so important, Juan, to answer your question.
Maybe Megyn did. But you have to make these important distinctions and classifications. It does matter. It matters now. It matters for the cases going forward. It matters for us to identify these.
Ultimately, later it can determine the amount of resources. It matters in many, many important ways. And there's been a reluctance in this country to call it and tell it like it is, at least on behalf of some of the, you know, criminal justice system.
WILLIAMS: But I think a lot of people who are conservative, though, say they oppose hate-crime legislation, because if someone comes and beheads me, it's a crime. It's a murder. And so prosecute the murder and stop trying to judge the intent or the motivation, because it's wrong in any case. And in this case...
GUILFOYLE: But crime is all about intent and motivation.
WILLIAMS: No, no. But that's when you're convicting the person prosecuting.
GUILFOYLE: It's one of the elements.
WILLIAMS: I'm saying but it doesn't add to the penalty, does it?
GUILFOYLE: Well, that's incorrect. I mean, hate crimes, classifications depending, they do matter and they do add sentencing enhancements to somebody who's...
KELLY: There is something -- there is such a thing as a federal terrorism charge. The FBI in this case is saying he wasn't there. This didn't meet it.
But it is an interesting point. Because you have the NAACP president this week calling for an investigation and prosecution of hate crime groups, like those who inspired the Charleston attack, you know, this Skinhead, whatever he was. White supremacist.
And we had a First Amendment expert on the show last night saying you can't do that. You can't -- you don't criminalize thought. It's not illegal to be a racist. It's illegal to commit violence.
And I think a lot of people like the NAACP president haven't thought this through. Because if you're going to criminalize just the mere racism of the Skinhead groups and say posting those websites with all the hate on them, that's unlawful in this country, then you're going to have to go after the other Alton Nolans who are out there right now, switching back to Oklahoma. The guys who are out there with beheadings on their Facebook pages, celebrating bin Laden on their Facebook pages. That, too, is going to need to be illegal, and they're going to need to be arrested just for having the thoughts, for celebrating the actions, even before they commit an act.
PERINO: And last week the New York Times, I think it was Saturday or Sunday edition, had a secret State Department memo that was leaked that said we are losing the digital war against ISIS. So I think what you're saying is important.
What else might surprise people tonight when they tune in?
KELLY: I think how she feels about whether this is terror or not. I think the viewers may be surprised at her answer to that.
The thing that jumped out at me was the guilt she feels over what happened that day. It's not survivor guilt. It's not -- she's guilty that she lived and Colleen died. She feels guilty that this happened because an altercation she had with the perpetrator, which is so crazy, right?
Because, you know, in a most generous sense. But because this guy, you know, lots of people have workplace altercations, right? You know.
GUTFELD: She looks at me. But you know what unites ISIS and spree killers and lone wolves, there's one common denominator. Losers. Violent losers.
They do not represent a greater societal ill. They only represent violent losers. And they come in every stripe. In this melting pot, they are black, and they are white, and they are Arab; and they're all men, young men.
KELLY: But you look at this case. And you look at how vocal he had been in his social media and the attendance at this mosque, which was under the eye of the FBI. I mean, we had another man on our show right after this beheading, who talked about how he attended that mosque and what he was told about, "This is our message in the public, but this is what we do behind closed doors." So the FBI had their eye on this mosque. So why didn't they find him?
If they did find him, why didn't they do more? And should we be at a point in this country where we are doing more? Is that appropriate, to be surveilling somebody like this guy, Nolan, just because he's got the crazy rantings on his social media but we don't know that he's -- and he was a convict at the time, as well. But we don't know that it's going to translate into violence. You know, we're wrestling with this as a country right now, trying to figure out where we want to draw that line.
GUILFOYLE: Makes a case for why we have to do it. Because you have to follow those threads to be able to connect it to say who he's talking to, who's he in the mosque with, who's he communicating with on social media, on texts, phone calls, et cetera. So you can prevent something like this.
PERINO: Same with Dylann Roof.
All right. Thank you for joining us, Megyn.
Don't forget to catch her exclusive interview. It's tonight at 9 p.m.
Eastern. And coming up, we are going to talk about the government's plan to put a woman on the $10 bill. That's next.
GUTFELD: So the Treasury has announced that it's putting a woman on the $10 bill. Originally, there was talk of putting a female on the 20, but now it's 10. Once again, women end up making half as much as men.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, boy.
GUTFELD: Alexander Hamilton has been on it for a long time. He had a good run. I wish him well, but truth be told, not a lot of people even remember who he is. Was he the guy with the tan? I don't know.
Put a woman on the 10? I'm all for it. We've done it before. Remember Susan B. Anthony? That really took off.
But who cares, honestly? I'm beginning to sense that shared histories are, like, old. As the age of identity puts individual feelings above everything else, the result is an ambivalence towards the past. They don't really care. Could you build the Lincoln Memorial or the Washington Monument now?
Hell, no. The debate would crumble into a war over white maleness and white privilege, and we'd scrap both for an empty field commemorating the shame for our past.
But it seems we decided to "let's make it a woman" without deciding who that woman should be. My suggestion, obviously, Caitlyn Jenner.
GUILFOYLE: I knew it.
GUTFELD: For ultimately, the best solution is a modern, beloved symbol that resists the endless condemnation that always erupts later from activist professors and whiny students. With Jenner, you get a foolproof icon that no one dare question. Talk about getting change for a 10.
Here are my two choices.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.
GUTFELD: Here are my two choices that I would say for the ten. Obviously, a ten, Bo Derek, the perfect ten. Or be totally literal and have just ten bucks.
Dana, what are you...?
PERINO: Thanks. Well, I think there's a way that they -- I think the Obama administration screwed this up.
GUTFELD: Of course.
PERINO: Got everybody mad. Right?
PERINO: But I think that they're -- why don't they come up with a better solution? Because one of the things I could actually really use right now...
PERINO: ... is a $25 bill, OK? So because you need 20, and they also like need a 5, which is again, a $25 bill. Are you with me?
BOLLING: Oh, sure. What about a $30 bill?
PERINO: Then you only need four to make 100 bucks. Do you see what I mean?
GUTFELD: I got it.
PERINO: And I would put -- I would choose two women, Jean Kirkpatrick...
GUTFELD: That's nice.
PERINO: ... the first woman to represent the United States at the U.N., or Jeannette Rankin. She was the first woman ever elected to the U.S. House of Representatives.
WILLIAMS: You know, I was thinking I really think a lot of Rachel Carson...
WILLIAMS: ... who started so much of the environmental...
PERINO: Oh, my gosh.
GUILFOYLE: Juan, on money?
PERINO: That's outrageous.
GUTFELD: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
WILLIAMS: Eleanor Roosevelt, Harriet Tubman and feminist Betty Freidan.
PERINO: I like Tubman.
GUTFELD: What's "Silent Spring"?
WILLIAMS: "Silent Spring."
GUTFELD: Anyway. Eric.
BOLLING: So Greg, you said the left wants a modern beloved symbol. Why not just do it now? It's going to be Hillary Clinton. Just put her on it now.
GUILFOYLE; You knew that was coming.
BOLLING: Right? It's going to -- eventually it's going to be her, anyway.
GUILFOYLE: Franklin commemorative plate? It's all happening.
BOLLING: But to play serious for a second, if you want to do it, do it right. Rosa Parks. The woman, she's a modern -- the mother of the civil rights movement. I think just about everyone would be happy with that one.
GUTFELD: They should put, Juan, the woman that originally was on the bus.
What was her name? Come on.
WILLIAMS: I'm trying to remember. Oh, yes.
BOLLING: Is this true?
WILLIAMS: It is true.
GUTFELD: I'm sorry. I went off topic. Kimberly.
GUILFOYLE: I'm going to be incredibly consistent. I voted for her for the Wheaties box. I would like to vote for her for president and I would like her on the $10 bill, because maybe this is going to help encourage her to run for president. Condoleezza Rice, I think it's outstanding choice.
GUTFELD: She should be on Rice Checks.
GUILFOYLE: OK. Ruined it again.
GUTFELD: No. We need Condoleezza Rice Checks.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, OK.
WILLIAMS: By the way did you know there was a $1,000 bill?
GUTFELD: Yes, there is.
BOLLING: Not anymore.
PERINO: There was.
BOLLING: Yes, there was.
GUTFELD: That was Clinton's nickname.
BOLLING: I think they stopped the $2 bill, too.
GUTFELD: Another presidential hopeful is about to enter the 2016 race.
Because we haven't had enough. Bobby Jindal's announcement live when "The Five" returns.
WILLIAMS: Welcome back to "The Five." Let's go to Bret Baier in Washington for some breaking news.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: This is a FOX News alert. I'm Bret Baier in Washington.
Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal is about to become the latest Republican to run for president. Jindal will make it official momentarily in Kenner, Louisiana. There you see his wife, Supriya, talking to the crowd there.
The governor already joins a crowded field and faces the immediate challenge, actually, of trying to break into the top ten nationally to qualify for the first GOP candidate debate August 6 here on FOX News.
We'll bring you the latest poll numbers in the presidential race, including a new addition to the top five nationally. But first, we'll head down to Jenner [SIC], Louisiana -- Kenner, Louisiana, and Governor Bobby Jindal with his announcement.
GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: My name is Bobby Jindal. I am governor of the great state of Louisiana, and I am running for president of the greatest country in the world, the United States of America!
Forty-four years ago, a young couple who had never before been on an airplane, they left their home on the other side of the world to come to a place called America. They had never seen it. There was no Internet to search. But they had heard the legend. There was a place in this world where people were free, and the opportunities were real. They weren't really coming to a geographical place. They were coming to an idea. And that idea is America!
To them, America represented all that was good in the world, where you could get ahead if you worked hard and played by the rules. A place where what matters is the content of your character, not the color of your skin, the ZIP code you were born in or your family's last name. My dad -- my dad grew up in a house without electricity, without running water. He was the only person in the family to get past the fifth grade. He and Mom, they came to Louisiana because they believed in America. And when they got here, they found that the legend was true. They found that the people of Louisiana accepted them. And they found that America is indeed the land of the free and the home of the brave!
Thirty-seven years later, my parents' eldest son became governor of Louisiana. It was the aftermath of Katrina. Our economy was locked in a downward spiral. Our biggest city was reeling. For 25 straight years more people had left the state than had moved into it. Louisiana was in big trouble. So we had to make big changes. We had to believe in Louisiana again, and that is exactly what we did.
We reformed our ethics laws. We went from one of the worst states to one of the best states in the country!
We privatized our outdated government-run hospital system. We reformed education with nearly 100 percent charter schools in New Orleans. And now we have state-wide school choice, because every child deserves an equal opportunity for a great education!
Instead of the child following the dollars, we made the dollars follow the child. Because we trust the parents, not the bureaucrats, to make the best decisions for their kids.
We did what they said could not be done. We shrank our government. We cut our budget by 26 percent. We cut the number of government bureaucrats by more than 30,000. That wasn't easy. The big-government crowd fought us every step of the way. They protested; they filibustered; they even took us to court. But in the end, we won!
Today we have more people moving into Louisiana than out of it. Our highest population in history. Our kids are coming home!
And now we have more people working than at any time in our state's history with the highest incomes in our state's history. A job for your family. A paycheck in your mailbox. They're the ultimate proof that your state is doing things right!
But of course, there's another side to the story. The big-government crowd, they hate what we have done. They say that we have cut the government more than anyone. The government budgets are always running low on funds with me in the governor's office. My response to the big- government crowd is simply this. Yes. I am guilty as charged. And our state is better off for it today!
It's time for the folks in Washington to admit the truth. You can't grow the economy and the government at the same time. It is an either/or choice. Now, Hillary Clinton, she wants to grow the government in Washington.
We want to grow the real economy out here in America.
Here's the key difference. Democrats evaluate success in terms of the prosperity of government. We define success in terms of the prosperity of our people!
My approach is different from most of the other people running for president. The United States of America was made great by people who get things done, not lots of talk or entertaining speeches. Oh, to be sure, there are a lot of great talkers running for president already. But none of them, not one, can match our record of actually shrinking the size of government. If great speeches helped our country, we'd be on Easy Street right now. The guy in the White House today? He's a great talker. We have a bunch of great talkers running for president. We've had enough of talkers. It is time for a doer.
I'm not running for president to be somebody. I'm running for president to do something!
Oh, it's easy to talk about the mess that Obama has made of our country.
Every American knows about it. Every Republican candidate talks about it.
That's not even half of what we should expect from our next president. We owe voters more than just a tirade about the problem. We owe them honesty about our solutions. I will do the things that you cannot do in Washington. I will say the things you cannot say.
I served two terms in Congress. I can tell you how it works in Washington.
If you want to be with the cool kids, if you want to be liked by the media, if you want to be invited to the right cocktail parties, you have to accept there are things in Washington you just cannot do. They say you cannot reduce the size of government or the number of bureaucrats. Oh, you might be able to cut the rate of increase here and there. But they say you cannot actually cut government spending. But we can and we will!
They say the $18 trillion national debt can't really be addressed. It's just a part of doing business, so it's better not to talk about it. But we can and we will!
They know Social Security and Medicare are going bankrupt. But they're afraid to do anything about it. So they deny the math. They pretend everything is fine. But we can reform and save these programs, and we will!
In Washington they say term limits is a quaint idea that we are naive to believe in. They think we need a permanent class, a ruling class of elites. It's safer to not rock the boat. But we can rock the boat, and we will rock the boat!
In Washington, they know the voters want the borders secured, but they refuse to do it. But you and I can, and we will secure our borders!
Finally, they say we can't really repeal and replace all of ObamaCare.
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