Sen. McCain, Gen. Keane break down options against ISIS; Dr. Carson, Rev. Jackson provide insight into Michael Brown case

Written by Chris Wallace / Published August 24, 2014 / Fox News Sunday

Special Guests: Sen. John McCain, Dr. Ben Carson, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Gen. Jack Keane

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," August 24, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace.

The execution of that American journalist by ISIS has the Obama administration rethinking its strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Oh, this is beyond anything that we've seen, so we must prepare for everything.

GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: This is an organization that has an apocalyptic, end-of-days strategic vision, which will eventually have to be defeated.

WALLACE: What will it take to defeat ISIS? We'll discuss military options with retired four-star General Jack Keane.

Is Washington ready to go back to war? We'll ask Senator John McCain.

Plus, does the president's changing tone on ISIS signal a change on policy?

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will be vigilant and relentless.

WALLACE: Our Sunday group weighs in.

Then, accusations of bias from both sides in that Ferguson, Missouri, police shooting.

Rising conservative leader Ben Carson and the Reverend Jesse Jackson will debate the mistrust in the black community towards the police.

Carson and Jackson, only on Fox News Sunday.

And our power player of the week. I get up close and personal with Washington's most adorable celebrity, the giant panda cub Bao Bao.

All right now on FoxNews Sunday.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And hello again from FOX News in Washington.

Stunning developments in Iraq this week. The savage beheading of an American journalist. And now, the president's top advisers talking about a dramatic escalation in our fight against ISIS.

We want to drill down into what may become a new American war in the Middle East.

Retired four-star General Jack Keane will lay out what it will take to defeat ISIS.

Senator John McCain on whether Congress will go along.

But first, FOX News national security correspondent Jennifer Griffin with the latest developments -- Jennifer.

JENNIFER GRIFFIN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Chris, a senior Western intelligence official who I spoke to this morning confirms that the 23-year-old London rapper Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary is, in fact, the leading suspect in the killing of James Foley, as first reported by "The Sunday Times of London". He is believed to be the masked man who speaks with the British accent in the Foley execution video.

Official -- U.S. intelligence officials are not commenting. Abdel Bary's Egyptian-born father, who bears the same name, was extradited from London to the United States in 2012 for his alleged connection to Osama bin Laden and the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Africa.

Abdel Bary's son travelled to Syria last year to fight with ISIS and recently tweeted a photo of himself holding a severed head.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN RHODES, DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We made very clear time and again that if you come after Americans, we're going to come after you, wherever you are. And that's what's going to guide our planning in the days to come.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Until now, the White House has barred the military from carrying out anything other than narrowly defined air strikes inside Iraq. Now defense sources tell FOX the pentagon is actively weighing whether to conduct their strikes inside Syria itself. That's where ISIS has its bases and command and control of its forces which has swept across Iraq. Public statements by the white house until now that Syria was off limits allowed ISIS leaders to establish northeast Syria as a safe haven.

Further, we've learned that the Defense Department is also preparing plans to use special operations forces on the ground in Syria to combat the is threat. The president has not been presented with the plans, and aides say he has not made a final decision. Remarks by the chairman of the joint chiefs, General Martin Dempsey, indicated where the military sees this conflict with is heading.

DEMPSEY: Can they be defeated without addressing that part of their organization, which resides in Syria? The answer is no.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: Meantime, concern grows for the other three Americans held hostage by ISIS, including American journalist Steven Sotloff -- Chris.

WALLACE: Now let's bring in retired Jack Keane, former Army vice chief of staff, to discuss the military strategy that would be needed for this new mission.    General, assume that you're back in the Pentagon and president Obama gives you the directive, we want to take out ISIS. What will it take in terms of U.S. Air Force and U.S. ground forces and how long will it take?

GEN. JACK KEANE, FORMER VICE CHIEF OF STAFF, U.S. ARMY: Well, Chris, the way to look at this is, we need an air campaign first. And quite frankly, the United States would be in the lead there with our coalition partners. And also a ground campaign where we would be with our coalition partners in a support role only.

The air campaign would be designed to deny ISIS freedom of movement and take away their initiative to attack at will throughout Iraq, and also to destroy their support infrastructure, most of which frankly is in Syria. So, the strike targets would be in Syria, in Iraq, and it would be against staging bases with troops and equipments, supply bases, training areas for the foreign fighters that are streaming into Syria. Also, command and control and front line troop positions.

The ground campaign would be Free Syrian Army in the lead in Syria. They need to be robustly armed and equipped. What we're doing right now is inadequate.

Second, in Iraq, the Iraqi army would be in the lead, coordinating with Peshmerga, Sunni tribes, and Shia militia. That campaign on the ground would be to defend what we have, but also to conduct a counteroffensive to retake lost territory.

The map there shows the two biblical rivers that make their way through Iraq. The one in the west, the Euphrates River Valley, that would be an effort to retake Fallujah dam, Fallujah, and the towns that surround it. In the north, the Tigris River Valley, to retake oil fields, Baji Refinery, Tikrit and eventually Mosul.

That counteroffensive would have to be supported by air support. We call that close air support. We would need air ground controllers to facilitate the use of air power while those attacks are going on. And also, Chris, we need special operators on the ground to go after and target ISIS leadership and high value targets, critical infrastructure and the same. That's what an air and ground campaign would look like.

WALLACE: So, General, are we talking about hundreds of U.S. ground forces or thousands of U.S. ground forces? And is this an effort, if you're going to really obliterate ISIS, is this going to take weeks, months, years?

KEANE: OK. First of all, we have been dribbling in trainers and advisers that we have all been observing. And we've got hundreds there. I think this is thousands of trainers and advisers. Some of the Iraqi army, as we know, has to be reconstituted.

So, the fact of the matter is that our forces on the ground, not in a combat role, except for the special operators, they would I think number in the thousands. That's realistic.    In terms of the time, Chris, to be honest, no one knows. And why is that? Because we do not know how effective those ground units are going to be against ISIS.

We have -- we've seen the Peshmerga have recent success. The Iraqi army are holding their own by the Haditha dam. But that's not a counteroffensive campaign. We'll have to find that out. That will drive how long this takes.

WALLACE: Finally, General, what kind of support are we going to need from other countries, both to start helping us and helping in the fight against ISIS and to stop helping ISIS? And I know there's a lot of financial support coming from other countries.

KEANE: Well, that is really a crucial question, Chris. The fact of the matter is, I think the United States should host an international summit to develop a comprehensive strategy to defeat ISIS in conjunction with coalition partners.

What is the objective? How are we going to achieve it? Put all of that together.

On the political side, we've got to crack down on our allies in the region who have their citizens who are funding ISIS and other radical Islamist groups. We know who they are. Some of them obviously are in Saudi Arabia. We have to crack down on Qatar, who we treat as an ally. We have bases there. We have support equipment.

But the fact of the matter is, ISIS funds and it helped arm -- excuse me. Qatar has funded and helped arm ISIS. They also as we all know fund Hamas. That's got to stop. And we've got to use our pressure against that country to knock that stuff off.

Economically, ISIS is making money every day on the black market with their oil fields. But they are also putting money in banks. We know where those banks are. We should go after the banks and the facilitators using them.

The coalition brings what they can to help. And we take all that help, and we help coordinate it. We know how to do that. We've done that before.

WALLACE: So, this is a big, complicated, and prolonged effort.

General Keane, thank you so much for joining us today, sir.

KEANE: You're welcome, Chris.

WALLACE: But President Obama hasn't decided anything, and Congress hasn't approved it. We want to discuss that with one of the first leaders to warn about the threat from ISIS, Arizona Senator John McCain.

Senator, I wanted again by playing what some of the president's top advisers have been saying this week about taking on ISIS. Here they are.   

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

DEMPSEY: This is an organization that has an apocalyptic, end- of-days strategic vision and -- which will eventually have to be defeated. To your question, can they be defeated without that part of the organization which resides in Syria? The answer is no.

RHODES: We're actively considering what will be necessary to deal with that threat, and we're not going to be restricted by borders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator, you have been around Washington for a while. Help us understand what's going on here when some of the president's top advisers are so far out in front of where he is on ISIS.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R- ARIZ.: Well, one hopes that they are -- it's a precursor to the president making an announcement of a new approach, and all of us appreciative of the president's comments about the tragic death of James Foley and what the administration people are saying, Hagel and General Dempsey.

But so far, they have not laid out a strategy. The president has got to come forward with a cohesive, comprehensive strategy, not only in Iraq, but also in Ukraine, also in other parts of the world. This is an administration which the kindest word I can use is feckless, where they have not outlined a role that the United States of America has to play, and that's a leadership role.

No more leading from behind. No more don't do stupid stuff. No more tell Vladimir that I'm going to be more flexible if I am re-elect -- when I'm re-elected.

The United States -- the president has to understand that America must lead. And when America hasn't, a lot of bad things happen. This is not like the earthquake in San Francisco. All of this could have been avoided like leaving a residual force behind in Iraq, and obviously the challenge is now much greater than it would have been when the president made the decision not to leave a residual force in Iraq, among other things.

WALLACE: All right. Senator, you just heard Jack Keane lay out a very ambitious plan, an economic plan, a political plan, a military plan, thousands of advisers. Looks like it could go on for months if not years.

How confident are you, based on the comments made this week, that President Obama will decide on a full-scale attack against is in both Iraq and Syria?

MCCAIN: I do not know, nor do I know whether incredibly we're still not providing weapons and intelligence information to Ukraine while they're being basically cross-border invaded by Russia. I don't know. But I don't think his advisers would be that far out front if they didn't have some confidence.   But also, Chris, let me just say, the president's got to talk to the American people. You were raising the question earlier. What will Congress do? It depends on the leadership of the president of the United States. Yes, we're, quote, "war-weary". Everybody understands that.

But there's no question about this British young man and the hundreds of Americans already over there and the thousands of Europeans who have been radicalized who will come back to attack us. And that's the view of our chief intelligence people.

WALLACE: Let me pick up on that. Will -- if the president does launch the kind of campaign that Jack Keane was just talking about, will the president have to go to Congress to seek another authorization for the use of force? And looking to your part of Pennsylvania Avenue, how certain are you that Congress will approve it, given the fact that Congress has not yet approved the extra $500 million to aid the Syrian rebels?

MCCAIN: The reason why Congress hasn't approved the $500 million extra aid is no one's told us what it's going to be used for, except for, quote, "counterterrorism". The president of the United States has to articulate the challenge, what we need to do to meet it, and describe exactly to Congress what those missions are.

And unfortunately, so far, he seems to be strangely detached. And Americans don't believe that he is certainly leading in a way that they can have confidence that we will reach the conclusion, which is the defeat -- not stopping, but the defeat of ISIS, who are a direct threat to the United States of America.

WALLACE: Senator, I think it's fair to say that you were one of the few lonely voices to talk about the threat, the existential from ISIS for months. Horrific as it was, why did it take the beheading of that American journalist, James Foley, for this administration to start talking, at least the administration, if not the president, to start talking not about containing ISIS but defeating it?

MCCAIN: I think that the terrible beheading was sort of the catalyst on what was already brewing out there, whether it be in Ukraine or whether it be in Syria or whether it be in Iraq. There was a growing recognition of the threat.

And by the way, as General Keane said, there's no boundary between Syria and Iraq. One of the key decisions the president is going to have to make is air power in Syria. We cannot give them a base of operations. And we've got to have the Free Syrian Army.

I am heartbroken, Chris, about what has happened to the Syrian people and a lot of that is due to our total inaction. And it's going to be one of the more shameful chapters in American history.

WALLACE: But, Senator McCain, if General Keane is right, and it's going to take thousands, he said, thousands of U.S. soldiers in support situations, not in combat, but thousands of U.S. soldiers on the ground, and it's going to take months, if not years -- I know a lot of folks watching this interview right now are thinking, wait a minute. We saw this in Iraq. We saw this in Afghanistan, years of U.S. involvement, trillions and thousands of American soldiers, in blood and treasure, and we don't want to do that.

MCCAIN: Well, we don't want to have the war won as it was in Iraq and then lose it by not leaving a residual force. And the same thing will happen in Afghanistan if we don't have condition-based presence. And that doesn't mean as General Keane said, these are support troops. Although there will be some Americans in danger, particularly our Special Forces people.

But look at the alternative. And that's what has to be explained to the American people. And I believe the American people will follow. But even I have to be convinced that there is an overall comprehensive strategy which -- and by the way, Lindsey Graham and I will make repeal of defense sequestration as our first goal, hopefully in September.

But the point is that the president has to lead. And the president can change. Jimmy carter changed after Afghanistan. Bill Clinton changed after. Mr. President, don't be ashamed of re- evaluating your view of the role of the United States in the world, because we have shown over the last six years exactly what happens when we don't lead and create a vacuum.

WALLACE: Senator, we've got less than two minutes left. I just want to turn quickly, you mentioned it, to Ukraine. NATO says that Russian forces have been firing artillery at Ukraine, both from across the border in Russia but also from inside Ukraine. We've also -- and we have it up on the screen -- those hundreds of Russian trucks, supposedly on a humanitarian mission, that crossed the border from Russia into Ukraine without Ukrainian support.

What should President Obama do about that?

MCCAIN: First thing we should do is provide intelligence and arms to the Ukrainians who are outgunned. I mean, it's incredible that we only even give them sensitive intelligence so they can plan better.

The second thing is, again, appreciate Vladimir Putin for what he is, and that is an old KGB thug that's bent on restoration of the Russian empire. And understand that our European friends are not going to do much, look at from Vladimir Putin's point of view, what he has paid for with the absorption of Korea and the keeping eastern Ukraine unsettled, which is the goal as -- look at the price that he's paid for it. Europe needs to be energy independent. Senator Hoeven, Senator Barrasso and I have put forth a plan that in two years we can deliver natural gas to Europe.

WALLACE: Senator McCain, obviously a lot to talk about. Thank you so much for coming in today, sir. 

MCCAIN: Thanks for having me on.

WALLACE: So, are we headed for another war in the Middle East? Our Sunday group weighs in next.

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel? Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday, and we may use your question on the air.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Oh, this is beyond anything that we've seen, so we must prepare for everything. And the only way you do that is you take a cold, steely hard look at it, and get ready.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel delivering an ominous warning about the rising threat from ISIS.

And it's time now for our Sunday group -- GO strategist Karl Rove, Bob Woodward of "The Washington Post", radio talk show host Laura Ingraham, and FOX News political analyst Juan Williams.

Bob, I want to ask you the same question I asked Senator McCain. What do you make of the president's advisers getting so far out ahead of where he is on confronting ISIS in both Syria and Iraq, and do you think in the end, he's going to authorize a full-scale campaign?

BOB WOODWARD, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, you don't know what he's going to do. He wants to -- he -- one key point about Obama is he doesn't like war, and he's trying to avoid the next one.

But let's not kid ourselves. There's an inconsistency here. I mean, Hagel and the chairman of the joint chiefs have said -- and Kerry, the secretary of state, made it very clear, all options are on the table, and the president has said no boots on the ground.

And this is kind of a moment for Obama where -- and I think in this case McCain had it exactly right. You need two things: Leadership -- he's got to step up and say, I'm in charge. This is what we're doing. And the second element is strategy. He needs to lay out a plan and say, this is how we're going to get to some point that there's political agreement on.

WALLACE: Karl, you were in these kinds of meetings in the Bush White House. What do you make of what's going on here, where the president's advisers, including Ben Rhodes, the deputy national security adviser, talking about we're not going to be bound by borders, are so far ahead of the president and how do you see this playing out?

KARL ROVE, GOP STRATEGIST: Well, look, we also had secretary of State Kerry who said the object is to crush ISIS. So, a lot of the president's advisers sound much more robust than the president had thus far.

WALLACE: Let me ask you about that, though. Is it possible that they could be freelancing?    ROVE: You know, it's hard to read how this administration makes foreign policy decisions. You would expect most of the time that statements like that from Hagel, the chairman of the joint chiefs, the secretary of state, the deputy national security adviser, would be representative of the thinking of the president. I'm not certain that's the case here.

But the president does face a very tough decision. Airstrikes, 94 airstrikes, 61 of them against targets around the Mosul dam, is not a long-term, comprehensive strategy -- and the kind of questions that he's going to have to face in the days ahead, the nature of the strategy, the scope. Are we going to go into Syria or not? The duration of it. What is the -- you know, what kind of assets are going to be deployed? And what are the results by which we measure this?

These are all very tough decisions with large consequences. I do think one thing the president ought to be guided about. The president's approval ratings on Iraq are not particularly high. But what is interesting to me was in Bob's newspaper's poll, "The Washington Post"/ABC poll, June 22nd, do you oppose or support the president's airstrikes in Iraq? Support, 45, oppose, 46. By August 17th, that had gone to 54, support, 39, oppose.

There is support out there in the country that the president can rally, but he must rally is through talking to the American people for an effort to degrade and destroy ISIS.

WALLACE: We asked you for questions for the panel. And we got this one on Facebook from Tom Johnson.

He writes: if we have to pursue is into Syria, what challenges will we face militarily and politically from the likes of Assad, Iran, or even Russia, or can we form some kind of coalition against a common enemy in is?

Laura, it's a good question. How do you answer --

LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO HOST: Well --

WALLACE: How do you answer, Tom? Because this is going to be tricky. 

INGRAHAM: Again, Karl kind of laid this out. But if we're then going to be on the same side as Assad, and on the --

WALLACE: Because he opposes ISIS, and we would be opposing ISIS.

INGRAHAM: And then on the same side as Iran, what does that say about our geopolitical understanding?

And I think, look, we know Obama is quite adept and fairly engaged in domestic policy, whether it's reacting to the war on women or maybe even Ferguson, he's very engaged. But on his foreign policy, he is always loathe to really engage. I would say rhetorically, strategically, the leadership question.   And to see Dempsey and Hagel out there at the end of the week, after Obama made it clear, no boots on the ground, this has to be limited, it can't be won by America alone, and -- but it's going to be long-term, I think people are very confused.

The images of crucifixes driven through the throats of young children. The images of children being eyes burned, beheaded, those do get through to the American public. They do understand that.

But boots on the ground? I think that's a different matter for a lot of people. I think they are very concerned again of getting involved in another war in Iraq, without a clear sense of leadership.

Now, Obama gets engaged like Bob says, maybe that's different. But I think right now people are very confused about what our role in the world is.

WALLACE: I want to pick up on that with Juan, because if the president in effect -- because that's what it would be, declares war on ISIS -- do you think Democrats in Congress, do you think Democrats around the country, will back him?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Based on what I've heard from Senate Majority Leader Reid, from Democratic leader in the House, Nancy Pelosi, even Elizabeth Warren, kind of a leader of the left in the U.S. Senate, if this is a humanitarian effort, if it's a matter of, for example, preventing the massacre of the Yazidis or the Kurds -- yes, progressives, liberals, however you want to describe it, are in support of the airstrikes. And they are even in support, from what I can tell, of going into Syria, saying there is no border. You have got to go after ISIS in Syria in order to get their headquarters, their training facilities, their assets.

But I think if you're talking about a second war, no. If you look at the polling right now, it's not only liberals, Chris, it's also Republicans and most importantly independents that oppose a second war, say it's a bad move for the United States.

WALLACE: Bob, to wrap this up.

WOODWARD: Yes.

WALLACE: There is a kind of Shakespearean irony here, isn't there? The idea of this president who ran on his opposition to war, who got reelected on ending wars, that he might be forced by history to take us into another war.

WOODWARD: Well, that's right. And the chairman of the joint chiefs, when he said we have to destroy it -- I mean, that is a mighty task. We have not yet destroyed al Qaeda. Al Qaeda still exists.

And I think you've got to look at what's the threat, and there's a big debate in the intelligence community about whether ISIS is going to send people to the United States to attack here.

And let's remember -- I hate to go back to 9/11. But it's a critical turning point here. Mohammed Atta, the leader of the 19 hijackers, spent as best we have been able to tell, $400,000 on that attack. It was pretty cheap. He came here a year before, planned it in a very sophisticated way. And if you have a very aggressive, unfortunately, talented middle manager like that, you can do something very, very serious.

And everyone says, ISIS is -- has got more money, and has this vengeance quotient.

WALLACE: All right. We have to take a break here. We'll see you a little later in the program.

What do you think about the growing threat from ISIS? Should the U.S. launch a new campaign both in Iraq and Syria? Join the conversation on Facebook with other FNS viewers.

Up next, the protests in Ferguson, Missouri, calmed down. But distrust of the police is still there. Two of the leading voices in the black community join us to debate whether that's the real problem.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: It was another relatively calm night in Ferguson, Missouri, after days of violent clashes between the black community and the city's overwhelmingly white police force. In a moment, Dr. Ben Carson and Reverend Jesse Jackson we'll debate the merits of the continuing black mistrust of the criminal justice system. But first, Fox News correspondent Mike Tobin is in Ferguson with the latest on the ground there. Mike?

MIKE TOBIN, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Chris, attention here now shifts to the funeral of Mike Brown on Monday. Reverend Al Sharpton will deliver a eulogy, and three White House aides will be in the audience. The event is open to the public, and an overflow crowd is expected. It's a big, emotional event at a time when the streets have returned to a relative calm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOBIN: The NAACP youth march showed an obvious sign of police reaching out to the black community. Chiefs and leaders from the largest law enforcement agencies engaged in Ferguson carried the NAACP banner.

COL. JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY CHIEF OF POLICE: Don't let the agitators, the people that have their own agenda derail this train. It's in the right direction right now.

TOBIN: Across town, supporters of police held a rally for Officer Darren Wilson, who fired the fatal shots. They are reluctant to use their names.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many of us have received death threats against ourselves and our families.

TOBIN: Followings the clashes between demonstrators and heavily equipped police, President Obama has ordered a review of the program allowing local police to purchase surplus military equipment. Governor Jay Nixon is withdrawing the National Guard and requesting federal disaster money to help looted businesses rebuild.

VARUN MADAKSIRA, RED'S BBQ: The store owners are scared. The employees are scared to come out, you know, because of all the way things unraveled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOBIN: There were still arrests and skirmishes overnight. Six people were arrested, four of them were from out of state. And of those four, three had been arrested more than once. Chris?

WALLACE: Mike Tobin reporting from Ferguson, Missouri. Mike, thanks for that. Quite frankly, we're having a technical difficulty in Colorado Springs with Dr. Ben Carson, so while we're waiting for that, to see if that's going to come up, we brought back our panel to discuss the situation in Ferguson, and maybe a little bit longer discussion than we had planned. Juan, let me start with you. You had an interesting article in the "Wall Street Journal" this week, in which you wrote about the racial fears and the real problems facing black men. Are the protesters in Ferguson focused on the wrong thing?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't know if they are focused on the wrong thing. I think there's a legitimate angst over the idea that a young man was shot six times and he's unarmed, and whether or not that was excessive, lethal force - use of force by police, was it justified. So there's a real question, I think for everybody, black and white, and I think that's why you've seen the outpouring. But what I wrote in the piece, Chris, was the interaction between police and poor black men is specific, is a real window on racial fears in the United States. Because we've seen this not just in Ferguson. We've had recent incidents in New York and L.A. You think back to Trayvon Martin. And the fear, I think, on the part of the conservative, white, mostly white community is that the line between the law-abiding and the lawless is really the police, and you must support the police and give them the benefit of the doubt. On the black side of this equation, I think there's fear of intimidation and harassment being legitimized by the fact that there is a high rate of crime, especially young black men.

Number one cause of death young men - black men, 15 to 34, murder. Who's committing the murder? Not police. Other black men. Similarly high rates of violence in terms of very -- assault, robbery, those kinds of violent crimes. Again, young black men. But we don't talk about this fear. And I really think it's such a sin and a shame in this era. The civil rights community, black political leadership, is reluctant to talk about this, even though it so negatively impacts from where I live the black community. It creates fear. But we don't talk about it because we think oh, this will feed the right wing and their anger and give permission to police to abuse and racially profile black men.

WALLACE: Once again, in the wake of Ferguson, we saw how sharp the disparity is between the white community and the black community. I want to put up a poll that came out from Pew this week, Pew is a research firm. 18 percent of blacks have confidence in the investigation of Michael Brown shooting. 18 percent. While 76 percent do not have confidence in that investigation. Among whites, 52 percent have confidence while 33 percent do not. Laura, how do you explain that really striking disparity and what can we do about it?

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that's a tough nut to crack. President Obama obviously came in as a great healer, uniter, pledging that, you know, we'd work together, a new day in America, and that really hasn't come to pass. I will say that I have been reading a lot of the comments from the business owners, most of them minority business owners in Ferguson, and good people, hard- working people. Had no beauty parlor open for the last two weeks. Have lost business. And people saying I can't do this anymore. So, we saw what happened in Cincinnati, right, after the big riots in Cincinnati about a decade ago or so. Cincinnati was devastated, it took a long time to come back. It's just coming back now.

I think whatever your view is on the officer or what happened with Michael Brown, we don't know yet. But what we do know is these communities need jobs. They need economic growth. They need I think to some extent a spiritual revival. This is about families coming together. If this police officer committed a crime, the police officer should do the time. I think the more we as non-minorities say that, I think, you know, perhaps we can engage better. But I also think, you know, there's a lot of demonization going on out there on both sides. Demonization of the police, many of them minorities in these communities. Maybe not in Ferguson.

WALLACE: Not in Ferguson.

INGRAHAM: No. But in L.A., in Denver, in Phoenix we have police officers putting their lives on the line every day. And to speak on their behalf is not to be a racist. We need good police to have judgment and perhaps body cameras is the answer here. We'd probably have a lot more answers if he was wearing a body camera. I do think that our country needs to start coming together. I know this sounds like a wishful thinking. But given the threats that we're seeing overseas that could be coming across our porous border right now, we need -- all of us need to come together for an economic and spiritual family revival. That's what I think is going on.

WALLACE: Karl. Attorney General Holder visited Ferguson this week and very pointedly said, I understand -- not that I condone or agree with, but I understand the mistrust you have in the police department, and he talked about some cases where he had been profiled. Afterwards he met, you can see here on the screen, with Captain Ron Johnson of the state highway patrol, who is in charge of the police effort, who said that he thought that Holder and the fact that the grand jury was beginning to hear actual evidence, were the two major factors in calming the situation in Ferguson. Do you think Holder did a good job?

KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: I think he did something of a good job. We have two narratives here. One narrative emerging from the black community that the police killed a young black man who was approaching with his arms up, saying don't shoot. We have a second narrative which is we have a young - a violent young black man who assaulted a police officer and the police officer felt threatened. We won't know until the justice system works its way through which narrative is correct. I think Holder did a good thing by going to the community and saying, as a chief law enforcement officer in the country, I understand where you're coming from because I have felt racial prejudice in my own life, even when I was a prosecutor. If I was going to be critical, though, I would say this. I was worried about some of the words that he used. He said we can't have a conversation about what happened on August 9, and sometime in December nothing has happened. And the world is watching because there were issues raised by the shooting of Michael Brown predate this incident. He would have been better off had he said, I understand where you're coming from because I've suffered this myself, and I'm going to make certain that justice is done and we'll get to the bottom of this. Instead, it sounded like he was putting his thumb on the scale saying, this young black man did not deserve to die, and we're going to get this cop.

WALLACE: Bob?

BOB WOODWARD, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well ...

WALLACE: Basically, your takeaway on Ferguson.

WOODWARD: I mean I think you have to think about remedies. And if you talk to police chiefs or policemen who have been in the business a long time, they'll say the remedy here is police training, so you get officers in a situation where their first instinct is not to use the gun and fire. And there is a weight, there's a reality here that -- Chris is having trouble getting -- you have no sound.

WALLACE: No. I can hear you.

WOODWARD: So I think it's something that, you know, we can -- everyone can do better on. I think Holder going there actually did work. And that's an example of, you know, somebody -- a political intervention that is pretty successful.

WALLACE: I want to thank all of you for jumping in here as we were solving our technical problems. It's live television, folks.

Next up, we'll be talking to the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Dr. Ben Carson. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Well, we have our technical difficulties sort of figured out. We have the Reverend Jesse Jackson on television. And we unfortunately have Dr. Ben Carson, yes, we do have him, but unfortunately he's on the phone because the satellite transmission from Colorado Springs, we couldn't get to work. Anyway, gentlemen, glad to have you both here. Reverend Jackson, let me start with you. And I want to start with how you characterize the shooting of Michael Brown by that police officer. Here you are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JESSE JACKSON, PRESIDENT, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: How many times was he shot, and where was he shot, and why did he lie in the street for several hours? That was a kind of a state execution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: State execution. Reverend Jackson, how can you say that when you really have no idea what happened in that shooting?

JACKSON: Well, what I do know is he was shot, shot unarmed, and shot six times. And it's a pattern, whether it was the killing of Trayvon Martin or the killing of (inaudible), the killing of Diallo in New York, shot 41 times, the police walked away free. The Oscar Grant case in Oakland or the case of Rodney King in L.A. At some point, we require and need to meet -- we need to have a sense of justice. All we do know about Michael Brown is really he was shot unarmed six times.

WALLACE: Well, there has been a contention, the only point that I'd make, that he hit the officer in the face. And there are various unconfirmed reports about how severe that was. There is another report that he was charging at the officer. I mean I guess the question is, if we don't know, why are we declaring a verdict?

JACKSON: Well, it seems to me that the police acted as judge, jury, and executioner. And even on the worst scenario, if he had hit him in the face, does that require at a distance, I was there where he'd been shot, about 20 feet, does that mean you shoot him six times, four times at point blank range? I don't think so.

WALLACE: Dr. Carson, what do you think of what Reverend Jackson has been saying?

DR. BEN CARSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, I think the issues are really much bigger than what has been portrayed to be. And it can't be resolved in a short segment like this. But, you know, I've seen police excessive living in inner city Detroit and inner city Boston. But I've seen a lot more situations where the police saved the situation. And I'm not sure that this is a police versus black community issue.

You know, as a youngster, you know, I had anger problems also. But for the grace of God, I wouldn't be talking to you today. I tried to stab another youngster with a knife. A belt buckle saved him. You know, anger issues get in the way. And if you take race out of the issue altogether, and you take a group of young men and you raise them with no respect for authority, not learning to take on personal responsibility, having easy access to drugs and alcohol, they're very likely to end up as victims of violence or incarceration. It has nothing to do with race. So, yes, is there racism? Are there problems? Yes. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow. But we need to start looking at bigger issues here. We only have 320 million people in this country. We're on a global stage where we are competing with countries with over 1 billion people. We have to save all of our people. They are all precious. And we have to develop our resources appropriately.

WALLACE: Reverend Jackson, I wanted you to pick up and to address what Dr. Carson said. And I also want to put up some numbers. Because while the people and the protesters in Ferguson have been focusing on the police, the numbers tell a different story, which Juan Williams referred to earlier. Homicide is the number one cause of death among black males between ages 15 and 34. And 91 percent of black murder victims are not killed by the police, but are killed by other blacks. So in a sense, are the protesters focusing on the wrong problem?

JACKSON: Well, first of all, I wish Dr. Carson and I were part of that white panel that you just had because it does have a race dimension. We should all -- we -- we come by it by our experience, differently than your previous guests, number one. Number two, it seems to me that when blacks kill whites, which is rare, it's swift justice. When whites kill blacks, it's rebellion (ph), when it's black on black, there's a shrug of the shoulders as a kind of (inaudible). Guns in, drugs in, jobs out. Racial disparity and alienation and mistrust are very combustible formulas, factors.

WALLACE: And on the other hand, and let's take that into account, Dr. Carson, because I want to put up some other numbers, if we have the capability. Here we go. Ferguson is 67 percent black. But on its 53-member police force, 50 of the 53 officers are white. Only three are black. And 86 percent of traffic stops in Ferguson last year targeted blacks. Dr. Carson, you talked about the young, angry Ben Carson in Detroit. If you were a young man living in Ferguson, wouldn't that be a big problem for you?

CARSON: It would be a big problem. And people in Ferguson and in all of the cities, I think, need to get more involved in the process. What percentage of people in Ferguson voted in the last statewide election? I think you'll find it was less than 20 percent of the black community. We need to get people involved in what's going on, without question. That will make a huge difference in what goes on. And also, you know, as a young person, the thing that changed me was my mother made me read books. And I read books about people of accomplishment. And what I came to understand is that the person who has the most to do with what happens to you in life is you. It's not the environment, and it's not somebody else. Do those things play a role? They do. And if you want to focus on them, you can have a life that is completely controlled by others. But you can take control of your own life. These are messages that we must get across to people. We must re-instill the can-do attitude in America, not the what can you do for me or what have you done to me attitude.

JACKSON: Well, culture is a big factor in our behavior. But Rosa Parks was not guilty, but the law says that coloreds from the rear, and whites from the front. There's a culture here of racial harassment of black people. We have three times the unemployment rate in the country. Number one infant mortality, number one in short life expectancy, number one in unemployment. And so we cannot escape the need for something since we are talking about broadly like the (inadible) commission report where we analyzed this broadly. We were separate and not equal. Now we are free and not equal. We must have a kind of White House conference on jobs, justice and equality, I'm convinced.

WALLACE: Dr. Carson?

CARSON: Just -- first of all, Reverend Jackson, thank you for what you have done in the past, particularly during your days with Reverend Martin Luther King. I appreciate it very much. And I would have to say that we really are not on different sides of this issue. Maybe we come at it from different points of view. But I think we all want the same thing. We want people to move up in our environment, not to be satisfied and not to be dependent. And there are a lot of interconnecting parts that go with that. We're going to have to remove some of the issues that are depressing the economy so that we can create the kinds of jobs and the kinds of right situations so that people have the kinds of options that they need. We need to talk in the black community about the trillion dollars of resources that exist there and how they need to learn how to turn over dollars in our own community before we send them out to develop wealth and how to reach back and pull others up. Some of the worn-out policies of the do- gooders have not helped the community.

WALLACE: Dr. Carson, we're going to have to leave it there. Obviously, a lot more to talk about on this very big subject. And I've got to say, even with all the technical difficulties, it was worth waiting for. Dr. Carson, Reverend Jackson, thank you both so much for joining us today.

Up next, our "Power Player of the Week." We get a special look at one of Washington's biggest stars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Her website has had over 22 million hits in the last year. There are more than 140 different pieces of merchandise that bear her image. We first introduced you to this superstar last spring. Here is our power player of the week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Oh. I guess that's the only reaction you can have.

BRANDIE SMITH, SENIOR CURATOR, NATIONAL ZOO: She is a little bit sleepy this morning.

WALLACE (voice over): Meet Bao Bao, the National Zoo's baby panda. Her name is Chinese for precious treasure, and that's what she's become to Washington and the world. Bao Bao was just six months old when we were allowed to participate in a training session. Brandie Smith is senior curator of mammals at the zoo.

SMITH: One of the things we're trying to teach her is to come toward a target. So you call her name. You can tap her ...

WALLACE (on camera): Bao Bao, Bao Bao.

(voice over): At first, Bao Bao paid as much attention as my own children did as babies. But then Brandie gave me a piece of bamboo with sweet potato on the end.

(on camera): Can I ...

SMITH: You can see if she wants some.

WALLACE: She is liking that a little bit.

SMITH: These were just a little treats. So we're kind of teaching her, we're trying out the new foods. That just like any baby, you know, her first cereal, her first fruits.

WALLACE (voice over): But once she weans off her mother, bamboo will be her main diet.

SMITH: She's going to take it from you. So she'll pick it up in her hands and like an adult panda, she'll just grab it and she'll chew on it. So she looks very grown-up when she does this.

WALLACE (voice over): I for one am very proud of her.

(LAUGHTER)

SMITH: We watch her growth, and we compare it to our own kids. So, it's fun to watch her grow up.

WALLACE (voice over): Bao Bao is with her mother Mei Xiang almost every moment. They spend much of the night playing.

(on camera): Now, how did you get her away from her mom to come in here?

SMITH: In the morning, her mom actually is very happy to get some mom time, some alone time.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: That sounds familiar.

SMITH: I know.

WALLACE (voice over): Brandie says there's something about pandas that is deeply appealing to humans.

SMITH: Their faces are just so -- you know, they are so cute, they are so sweet. And I think a lot of people look at them and they are the ultimate teddy bear.

WALLACE: But for all the comparisons to babies, the stuff never let Bao Bao climb on them.

SMITH: They are bears. They are dangerous animals. They have big claws, they have big teeth. And so, we don't ever want them to think of us as toys. We always maintain that distance with them.

WALLACE: And when she turns four, the panda will be sent to China.    (on camera): You're going to be pretty attached to Bao Bao by the time she has to leave.

SMITH: This is something that a lot of parents can kind of sympathize with because our goal is to do what's best for Bao Bao, and the best thing for her is to go back to China, to act like a panda, to breed and to create more baby pandas. So, we're sad for us, but we will be very happy for her. So that will make things easier.

WALLACE (voice over): In the meantime, Brandie Smith loves what she is doing.

SMITH: We are helping to save a species here. Every day I come in and I help to save the species. To see Bao Bao succeed is really, you know, that's a success we all share. We share it here at the zoo and we share it with the public. You know, the pandas are -- the pandas belong to Washington, D.C. They belong to the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Bao Bao has grown since we last saw her. She now weighs more than 42 pounds. And yesterday the zoo celebrated her first birthday with a special frozen cake and a well-attended birthday party.

And that's it for today. Have a great week, and we'll see you on the next "Fox News Sunday."

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On the Show

Sunday December 21, 2014

The FBI has confirmed that North Korea was behind the recent cyber-attack on Sony Pictures, and now the entertainment company has announced that it will no longer release the controversial comedy “The Interview” on Christmas Day, amid threats of violence and pressure from theater owners. Have we underestimated North Korea’s cyber capabilities? We’ll discuss exclusively with Rep Mike Rogers (R-MI), Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

U.S. contractor Alan Gross, who was a prisoner of the Cuban government since 2009, was freed this week in a deal many hope signals a new era in diplomatic relations between the two countries. President Obama announced plans to “normalize” ties with the Cuba, beginning with re-opening the U.S. embassy in Havana, easing travel restrictions and reviewing the country’s label as a state sponsor of terror. We’ll debate whether or not this is good policy with two members of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Sen Ron Johnson (R-WI) and Sen Ben Cardin (D-MD).