This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," October 4, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, the first, and only, vice presidential debate is now in the books and while both campaigns are saying, their guy scored the most points, a lot of debate watchers are expressing frustration with what at times became a free-for-all.
Welcome to a special live 11:00 p.m. edition of "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Thanks for staying up late. Reporting tonight from Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia, the two candidates left the stage about 20 minutes ago, they covered a lot of ground tonight. And spent a lot of time talking about the top of the tickets. From insults, to the economy, foreign policy and policing, there was very little left behind. And here is some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM KAINE, D-VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We trust Hillary Clinton as president and commander-in-chief but the thought of Donald Trump as commander-in-chief scares us to death.
MIKE PENCE, R-VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Senator, you and Hillary Clinton would know a lot about an insult driven campaign.
KAINE: Under Secretary Clinton's leadership, she was part of the national team, public safety team that went after and revived the dormant hunt against Bin laden and wiped him off the face of the earth. And instead of 175,000 American troops deployed overseas, we now have 15,000.
PENCE: Right. And Iraq has been overrun by ISIS.
KAINE: If you want to have a society where people are respected and respect laws, you can't have somebody at the top who demeans everything that he talks about.
PENCE: If Donald Trump has said all of the things that you said, he said in the way you said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. Senator, please. You know, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement broadly by making accusations of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs.
KAINE: Elaine, people shouldn't be afraid to bring up issues of bias in law enforcement.
PENCE: I think the fact that under this past administration, of which Hillary Clinton was a part, we almost doubled the national debt is atrocious. In the wake of a season where American families are struggling into this economy under the weight of higher taxes and ObamaCare and the war on calling this stifling avalanche or regulation coming out of this administration, Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want more of the same.
KAINE: The terrorist threat has decreased in some ways because Bin Laden is dead. The terrorist threat is decreased in some ways because an Iranian nuclear weapon program has been stopped. The terrorist threat to United States troops has been decreased in some ways because there's not 175,000, in the dangerous parts of the world, there's only 15,000 but there are other parts of the world that are challenging.
PENCE: After traveling millions of miles as our Secretary of State, after being the architect of the foreign policy of this administration, America is less safe today than it was the day that Barack Obama became president of the United States. It's absolutely inarguable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: We have a big show lined up for you tonight. Donald Trump's campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway is here, so is Hillary Clinton's National Press Secretary Brian Fallon. We'll also get Charles Krauthammer's key takeaways and so much more.
But we begin the night with Chris Stirewalt, our Fox News digital politics editor and Howie Kurtz, host of "MediaBuzz" on Fox News. Great to see you both. Chris, your thoughts.
CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: No hits, no runs, no errors. They did their job which was to not make news. I think Pence set a better night. Kaine was interruptee over modulated too hot coming in, couldn't quite settle down. But look, they were here to not harm the ticket. And they did their jobs and they can walk --
KELLY: Before we get to Howie on the interruptee --
STIREWALT: Interruptee.
KELLY: Here is a flavor of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: You both have said Vladimir Putin --
ELAINE QUIJANO, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: We're going to get to Russia in just a moment.
PENCE: He's employed tens of thousands of people in this country.
KAINE: And paid few taxes and lost a billion a year.
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: Senator, I think I'm still on my time.
KAINE: Well, I think -- isn't this a discussion?
QUIJANO: This is our open discussion.
KAINE: Yes, let's talk about the state of --
PENCE: Well, let me interrupt -- let me interrupt you and finish my sentence, if I can. Have run this economy into a ditch. We're in the --
KAINE: Fifteen million new jobs?
PENCE: -- slowest economic recovery since the Great Depression.
KAINE: Fifteen million new jobs?
QUIJANO: Governor --
(CROSSTALK) Gentlemen, the people at home cannot understand either one of you when you speak over each other. I would please ask you to wait until it is that the other is finished.
PENCE: I was in Washington, D.C. on 9/11. I saw the clouds, the smoke rise from the Pentagon.
KAINE: I was in Virginia where the Pentagon's --
PENCE: I know you were. We all lived through that day as a nation.
QUIJANO: Gentlemen, please.
KAINE: Because the FBI did an investigation.
QUIJANO: Gentlemen.
KAINE: And they concluded that there was no reasonable prosecutor who would take it further. Sorry.
QUIJANO: Senator Kaine, Governor Pence, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Unbelievable. I mean, Tim Kaine even interrupted Mike Pence when he was just trying to share a remembrance about 9/11.
STIREWALT: Yes.
KELLY: He had to get in where he was.
STIREWALT: And it's one of those things where you can tell Kaine had all of these lines that he wanted to get in, it was like oh, I'll say that and I'll say this and I'll say the other thing, and that look, and it was just too much when he couldn't quite handle it.
KELLY: And there were questions online about, where was the moderator? Where was the control?
HOWIE KURTZ, HOST, "MEDIABUZZ": I got to tell you, Megyn. I loved politics but this debate made my head hurt. Unfortunately, Elaine Quijano the moderator from CBS let this careen utterly out of control. Tim Kaine interrupting Mike Pence far more often without much admonition from the moderator. But here's the thing as Chris was just saying. I mean, Tim Kaine was so determined to throw out as many grenades against Donald Trump as he could even if they exploded around his body.
KELLY: Uh-hm.
KURTZ: That in another reference to 9/11, he somehow turned it around to Donald Trump and didn't pay his taxes and Mexican rapists and he kept bringing these things up again and again. Mike Pence was a former radio talk show host, tried not to take the bait on every attack against Trump.
KELLY: He took no bait. Really.
KURTZ: Yes.
STIREWALT: Right.
KURTZ: Which -- about the accusations about not defending his guy. But he came across a little more modulated and a little more dignified. I think as time went on, Kaine lost this debate because his attacks were less forceful as they became so scatter shocked.
KELLY: What do you make of the lottery theory that Kaine lost, he didn't care whether he won or lost, he just wanted to mention --
STIREWALT: Yes. Say the words, say the words.
KELLY: -- taxes, many times as humanly possible.
STIREWALT: Right. Right. Get there and say the words. Look, these are two very traditional, very normal, very mainstream candidates who are running on a ticket with people who are not normal candidates. These are people who are --
KELLY: Abnormal.
STIREWALT: Right. Well, for good or for ill.
(CROSSTALK)
But their job is to show normalcy and they did that and Kaine and Pence both did this. They both steered around the fundamental questions and issues for their candidates. There is a lot of non-answering that was going on tonight. You sort of expect that. But I think they both ably dodged.
KELLY: Yes. They did. They were able to dodge.
STIREWALT: Able dodge.
KELLY: Great to see you both.
STIREWALT: You bet.
KELLY: Well, as Donald Trump watched this debate, he lied tweeted his reaction to what we saw on stage, and we have Trump's -- stakes for you tonight.
Joining me now from just outside the debate hall, our chief political correspondent Carl Cameron. Carl?
CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Megyn. Well, Trump tweeted 44 times including re-tweets in that 90 minutes debate which means basically, at least once every two minutes and among them, there were some pretty good doozies. They go something like this. "Wow, Kaine couldn't go 12 seconds without a lie. Marines are scared of the liar running." He re-tweeted, "Kaine looks like an evil crook out of Batman movies."
Then there was, "Kaine says Hillary and he have plans, she could care less what Kaine thinks." "Loving Mike Pence. He's so likable and sensible. Kaine is just talking bull." "Hillary Clinton sneers at millions of average Americans." "Clinton's close ties to Putin deserve scrutiny." Then there is, "Kaine is awful. Trump and Pence are the ticket. No more lies. We're ready to see America great again."
And he ultimately ended it up congratulating Mike Pence for what he said was a victory and at one point, he actually criticized the moderator. Something that we're likely to hear a lot of in the next couple of days -- Megyn.
KELLY: Carl, good to see you.
CAMERON: You bet.
KELLY: Well, political analyst suggesting that Senator Kaine's main objective tonight would be to turn Governor Mike Pence into Donald Trump and force Mr. Pence to answer for all of Trump's controversies. Fulfilling those reports, Senator Kaine did not hold back using several opportunities to bring up a laundry list of Trump's controversies. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: Donald Trump during his campaigns has called Mexicans rapists and criminals. He's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. And I don't like saying that in front of my wife and my mother. He attacked an Indiana-born federal judge and said he was unqualified to hear a federal lawsuit because his parents were Mexican. He went after John McCain, a POW and said he wasn't a hero he'd been captured.
He said, African-Americans are living in hell. And he perpetrated this outrageous and bigoted lie that President Obama is not a U.S. citizen. If you want to have a society where people are respected and respect laws, you can't have somebody at the top who demeans everything that he talks about. And I just -- again I cannot believe that Governor Pence will defend the insult driven campaign that Donald Trump has run.
PENCE: He says, our is an insult driven campaign? Did you all just hear that? Ours is an insult driven campaign? I mean, to be honest with you, if Donald Trump had said all of the things that you said he said in the way you said he said them, he still would not have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables.
KAINE: Hillary Clinton said something on the campaign trail and the very next day she said, you know what? I shouldn't have said that. You will look in vain to see Donald Trump ever taking responsibility for anybody and apologizing.
KELLY: Joining me now, Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway. Kellyanne, great to see you.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Hi, Megyn.
KELLY: So, what do you make of that exchange where Kaine's response was, she took responsibility for what she said and apologized?
CONWAY: No. She didn't.
KELLY: And suggesting Trump never has apologized to anybody for anything.
CONWAY: No, she didn't. And that is not fair. Let me break it down first way. First of all -- because she got caught on tape at a fund-raiser with her donors, which is how she usually sent her time insulting tens of millions of Americans calling them a basket of deplorables and irredeemable at that. You add to that the Bernie Sanders voters since we since heard again in fundraisers or donors' where she insulted them as basement dwellers --
KELLY: She didn't say that. She said they're in basements struggling to make something out of their lives. She didn't say basement dwellers.
CONWAY: It didn't sound very nice, it didn't sound very complimentary. And even Bernie Sander said, he had a hard time listening to that. But the fact is that --
KELLY: He defended her on that.
CONWAY: In part. And then he said he had a hard time hearing that. And look, Megyn, very simple. American people know that she has insulted people. That she has disdain for lots of Americans. And I'd like the fact that Mike Pence brought it up, because the reason he used the word fraction was very clear that Tim Kaine wants to talk about this comment or that comment by Donald Trump and yet, you have a woman running for president of the United States who has expressed this scene for lots of Americans.
And that's why he used the word fraction. The other thing that was happening there is Tim Kaine was never answering the question, he came ready to have spill out of his mouth this unending flow of sound bites and canned responses. They came up terrible. There he was, interrupting a female moderator. We lost track of the time. We just thought --
KELLY: We can interrupt the female moderator saying --
CONWAY: Well, no, it's the Clinton campaign who loves to throw around words like sexism and unhinged. They've got to be regretting those words on a night like tonight when Tim Kaine --
KELLY: What about -- they got into a long discussion about Putin and what Trump has said about Putin and what he hasn't said and we have that exchange keyed up. And then, we have a bit of a fact check. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: Donald Trump again and again has praised Vladimir Putin and it's clear that he has business dealings with Russian oligarchs who are very connected to Putin.
PENCE: Let me be very clear on this Russian thing. The larger question here --
KAINE: Do you think Donald Trump has smart to not pay taxes?
QUIJANO: Gentlemen, we're going to have time to get to Russia here.
PENCE: What we're dealing with is the -- you know, there's an old proverb that says the Russian bear never dies, it just hibernates. And the truth of the matter is, the weak and feckless foreign policy of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has awakened an aggression in Russia --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Things you've said about Vladimir Putin. You said, I will tell you in terms of leadership, he's getting an A, our president is not doing so well. And when referring to a comment, that Putin made about you, I think he called you a brilliant leader, you said it's always a great honor to be so nicely complimented by a man so highly respected within his country and beyond.
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, he does have an 82 percent approval rating. I have already said, he is very much of a leader. I mean, you can say, oh, isn't that a terrible thing? The man has very strong control over a country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: So, Trump, he did say that Putin was a leader and compared him unfavorably to President Obama and even Mike Pence actually came out and said, it's inarguable that Putin is a stronger leader than Obama.
CONWAY: Meaning in their respective countries. Yes, I'm sorry --
KELLY: What do you mean? Putin is a strong leader. Do you believe that? Does Donald Trump believe he is a strong leader? That the people follow him because they feel inspired?
CONWAY: And Obama is here and you just heard Mike Pence use the words feckless leadership. There is no question that we respect the less around the world. There is no question that if Donald Trump and Mike Pence are president and vice president, that the American exceptionalism, the teamster strength and America first.
KELLY: But Kellyanne, you understand what this argument goes. Putin had journalists shot in the streets. So it's a little jarring for people to hear him praised by Donald Trump as a strong leader, stronger than President Obama.
CONWAY: He is stronger there than he is here and he also said, he played the full Clinton -- he also says in the commander-in-chief forum, different forum, that he says that I don't necessarily agree with that system of government. This is what Donald Trump said. He's a strong leader there than Obama is here. Nobody thinks Obama is a strong leader. I mean, if Obama is a strong leader, Secretary of State would have 55 percent --
(CROSSTALK)
Why in the new CNN poll is Hillary Clinton at 53 percent among women? She is running as the first female president. There is something holding her back.
KELLY: She is beating Donald Trump by 20 points with women. I mean, why is Donald Trump at 32 percent?
CONWAY: Not really. Not in our polls.
KELLY: Kellyanne --
CONWAY: She's got a gender gap of her own.
KELLY: She does. She does. She has a huge gap. No question about that. But you're sitting here suggesting why are her numbers low with women? And you work for Donald Trump. His numbers are historically low for a Republican nominee with women. Historically low.
CONWAY: Mitt Romney lost by 11 points and John McCain lost --
KELLY: Mitt Romney's numbers are crushing Donald Trump's numbers with women.
CONWAY: It's not Election Day yet. Why are we winning Ohio and Iowa --
KELLY: It's 35 days to go, Kellyanne. I mean, the criticism of Donald Trump is that he couldn't win this race and that he was doing -- and he was rebounding and his numbers in various states are rebounding, and then, he went after Miss Universe and talked about her being too fat and talked about women's looks again. And women don't like that according to these polls.
CONWAY: I guess I would throw this on why we're here, which is the vice presidential debate. I thought Mike Pence did a --
KELLY: Which all about who should be elected president.
CONWAY: Well, but Megyn, in fairness to Donald Trump, his very first execution of leadership and judgment was brought after he became the nominee. Selection of Governor Mike Pence as his running mate. And America saw tonight how wonderful that selection is. Because this man, as governor of Indiana has cut taxes for employees and individuals, the unemployment rate was slashed in half.
He's expanded school choice and charters. He's brought manufacturing jobs back. I worked with Mike Pence for probably ten years. The guy will make a fabulous vice president. And you juxtaposed him against Tim Kaine tonight. He basically spent most of his career in government service, is no stranger to the debate stage. And you think that Tim Kaine's performance tonight is going to sit well with women?
(CROSSTALK)
Yes. I think what you're going to hear from all the pundits tonight, this vice presidential debates don't really matter. They won't move the polls because they know how lopsided the victory was for Mike Pence.
KELLY: I got to go because I got a Clinton campaign representative coming up. We're going to talk about that. Great to see you.
CONWAY: Thank you.
KELLY: Thanks for being here. So for his part, Governor Mike Pence made the case against Hillary Clinton in a way that some critics wanted Donald Trump to do during last week's presidential debate. Here was one exchange getting a lot of attention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: At a time when literally, in the wake of Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state, where she was the architect of the Obama administration's foreign policy, we see entire portions of the world, particularly the wider Middle East, literally spinning out of control. At a time of great challenge in the life of this nation, we've weakened America's place in the world, stifled American's economy, the campaign of Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine has been an avalanche of insults.
The Clinton Foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was Secretary of State.
KAINE: Okay. Now, I can weigh -- I get to weigh in.
PENCE: She had a private server --
KAINE: Now, I get to weigh in. Now, let me just say this --
PENCE: -- that was discovered --
(CROSSTALK)
QUIJANO: Senator, please, you have an opportunity to respond. KAINE: Governor Pence doesn't think the world is going so well. And, you know, he's going to say it to everybody.
PENCE: Do you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Brian Fallon is the national press secretary for Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, he is with me now. Great to see you.
BRIAN FALLON, CLINTON CAMPAIGN NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY: Thanks for having me.
KELLY: So, what do you make of that because you heard Kellyanne make the point, it was my question to Lanny Davis, whether these women that both campaigns are fighting for, right, could make the difference in this election, are going to like how interruptee, to quote, Stirewalt's word, he was. I mean, constantly, constantly interrupting, interrupting.
FALLON: Well, the running mate has two jobs in a debate like this. Number one is, to defend your candidate, the person at the top of the ticket. I thought Tim Kaine was hugely effective in defending Hillary Clinton when he came under false attack from Mike Pence helping make the affirmative case about what Clinton-Kaine administration would do on the economy. And then secondly, you need to make the case against the other person on the other side of the ballot.
And I thought that he was extremely effective in making the case about why Donald Trump is temper mentally unfit to be president. And the reason he was so effective was he was citing Trump's own words and what was the most notable I thought was that Mike Pence was sort of not engaging at those points. Whether --
KELLY: Was that -- and let me get to Pence -- was that a strategy to have him -- it doesn't matter how many times he interrupts just keeps saying, this -- messages or launching these attacks over and over again?
FALLON: Well, look, it's easy to seem agreeable if you're not making any case on behalf of your candidate. Mike Pence, I thought sort of sat out major portions of the debate where Tim Kaine was calling out statements that Donald Trump has made. And I thought that was perfectly reasonable and I thought that what was notable was that Mike Pence didn't seem interested in defending some of Donald Trump's more outrageous comments. It seemed like he made a conclusion coming into tonight that if he didn't want to have to defend the Independents --
KELLY: He did make a reference at one point to the fact that he is not a professional politician, he hasn't lived the past, you know, several decades running for office and watching everything he says.
FALLON: Well, look, just take an issue like Russia. I mean, Donald Trump has gone around in the course of this campaign, expressed admiration for Vladimir Putin, he is essentially endorsed a wish list of pro-Putin policies, he suggested we should withdraw from NATO which would put our European ally at risk. And tonight we heard a completely different message from Mike Pence, he was talking about how Putin is a bully and he was small.
I mean, at the next debate, I hope that Donald Trump will be asked if he agreed to what Mike Pence said. And I think that that showed that Mike Pence had his own agenda tonight. And to me, it almost meant that he was auditioning for 2020 more than he cared about electing Donald Trump in 2016.
KELLY: What about Hillary Clinton's point tonight suggesting that she and President Obama have stopped Iran's nuclear program. I mean, no one thinks that stopped, at best, it's been curbed at absolute best, but it hasn't been shut down.
FALLON: Look, there is no question as a result of the deal that was struck by the Obama administration last year that we have suspended and put on hold the complete ambitions of the Iran regime to acquire nuclear weapons. The status quo is not going to be tenable. And I think we're --
KELLY: The capability is not gone. It hasn't been stopped. It's been curbed but it's still an operation. You know that.
FALLON: We are on much safer footing today.
KELLY: But that is a different statement. That is a different statement. What he said tonight is factually wrong.
FALLON: I don't think that is true at all.
KELLY: You believe the Iranian nuclear program has stopped? That is her position and your position?
FALLON: Yes.
KELLY: It stopped. It's over.
FALLON: Well --
KELLY: Congratulations.
FALLON: Let's be clear. We're not suggesting the Iranians do not continue to harbor ambitions to pursue nuclear weapons but their capability to pursue that nuclear program is completely off now. And that is why Hillary Clinton has said you need to take a distrust for verify approached, she doesn't suddenly believe Iran is an ally of any kind. They're continuing to fund terrorism in the region, they are continuing to sow instability all across the Middle East. And so yes, absolutely, they still have a mind to pursue nuclear weapons but they're not going to be able to do so under this agreement.
KELLY: Let's pick up in the last point that I was discussing to Kellyanne which is the women. Right? And there is a gender gap and that is true. Trump is definitely struggling with women. But Hillary Clinton is struggling worse with men. The gender gap is worse on her in getting men. And you tell me what she's going to do if anything between now and November 8th to reach out to them.
FALLON: Well, we always are seeking to reach out to voters that are not currently supporting Hillary Clinton and we're going to continue to do that. But if you look at some of the national polls that came out just yesterday, she's making complete inroads but male voters and I think that the gap is so much more pronounced among women voters that it's a point where Donald Trump can't recover if those numbers stay the same in terms of that gender gap.
And so it's Donald Trump that has more repair work to do with women voters, that is why Hillary Clinton was today in Delaware County in Pennsylvania making the case to women. A lot of them probably Mitt Romney voters in 2012. I mean, she was like pay equity, paid family leave, child care. With her daughter there, with Elizabeth Banks there. I think that is extremely powerful and that gender gap is going to be irrecoverable for Donald Trump. And unfortunately, tonight there is nothing that Mike Pence could say that would change that dynamic for Donald Trump.
KELLY: Okay. So you see no game changer this evening?
FALLON: It's impossible for the numbers to change the dynamic. The problem is the guy at the top, Donald Trump.
KELLY: Great to see you, Brian.
FALLON: Thanks.
KELLY: Thanks for being here.
Well, there is a lot more just ahead including from Charles Krauthammer who says, there is one clear loser in tonight's debate. And you might be surprised who that is.
Plus, David Wohl and Mo Elleithee are next on who came out ahead in a powerful exchange over policing and race.
And then, Marc Thiessen and Austan Goolsbee weigh in and what happened when this debate went nuclear. Don't miss this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: Ronald Reagan said something really interesting about nuclear proliferation back in the 1980s. He said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. And I think that is who Governor Pence's running-mate is. Exactly who President warned us about.
PENCE: Senator. Senator, that was even beneath you and Hillary Clinton and that, that is pretty low.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: I mean, Hillary Clinton Senator Kaine and God bless you for it. Career public servants, that's great - Donald Trump is a businessman, not a career politician. He actually built a business. Those tax return that came out publicly this week show that he's facing pretty tough times 20 years ago. But like virtually every other business, including the "New York Times," not too long ago, he is what's called net operating loss. We have a tax code Senator that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship.
KAINE: But why won't he release his tax return?
PENCE: We're answering the question about the business thing.
KAINE: I do want to --
PENCE: His tax returns showed going through a very difficult time. But he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used and he did it brilliantly.
KAINE: He stood on the stage last week and when Hillary said you haven't been paying taxes, he said "that makes me smart." So, it's smart not to pay for our military, not to pay for our veterans, it's smart not to pay for teachers and I guess all of us who do pay for those things I guess we're stupid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: As you just heard, Donald Trump's tax returns became a heated point of contention between Mike Pence and Tim Kaine tonight. And it's an issue that we could hear more off as we look ahead to the second presidential debate on Sunday, five days away.
Joining me now, Dr. Charles Krauthammer, syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor. Charles, great to see you. So, first, let's just start with -- your overall thoughts on how the debate went.
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, unfortunately, the big loser was the moderator. I don't envy her position but she lost control of the debate very early. The candidates were talking over each other and this is a pet to peeve I have with all moderators not just then one. Although it was worse in this one. You know, towards the end you're getting really good exchanges of the time where they were going at each other, quite revealing. And she would say, we have to stop and go on to another subject.
To which I would say, why, who cares about hitting all the points. At one point, I was watching some other folks who burst out laughing when she said, yes, but we're going to talk about North Korea. Well, that is less interesting than talking about their -- the top of the ticket. Look. I thought in the end, it obviously didn't move the needle. Because they were each trying to do something completely different. And to some extent, succeeded. Kaine was trying to spread little nuclear. Well, I wouldn't call them nuclear, conventional explosives all over the place by mentioning all of the misstatements, outrageous statements that Trump had said and it's clear that Pence had made a decision not to go down the rabbit hole on every one of these because otherwise, you never were to talk about anything else.
But it did make him look defensive and I didn't do a content analysis. But I would guess that most of the time it was spent defending or at least with the Pence, Trump team on the defense. What Kaine tried to do was simply to say, this guy is unreliable, this guy has wrong temperament but Pence's strategy, and I thought he won on tone, it was always calm and collected, it was a kind of Reagan saying to Carter, there you go again. Was to simply say, well, perhaps, my guy has made misstatements but your candidate and her people have been in charge for eight years and in a larger sense, for 30 years and look where we are.
Look at the state of the world. And that is what he concentrated on. What he has said, that is what Kaine was talking about. But what Pence talked about is what she had done, and not done. And I thought on that, the new rating for example, the failures with Russia, he did very well.
KELLY: What do you make of the notion that Trump could be his -- the question is about his temperament, can be answered or at least assuaged by this calm, cool, collected running mate?
KRAUTHAMMER: I think to some extent if you've got a very hot candidate, what you want is a cool number two. You want something to say well, if there is, you know, for example if Trump had chosen Newt Gingrich, I think he said they were both pirates and you don't want a two-pirate ticket. You want one guy to be the pirate and another guy to be the justice or the peace and perhaps even a minister. And to some extent, Pence presented himself sort of like a minister, reasonable, very serious answer. I thought at the very end at the question of religion. So, I think that helps the ticket to whatever extent the vice president can. Unfortunately, he or she usually doesn't.
KELLY: What did you make of the fact that Trump was tweeting during the debate calling Tim Kaine names?
KRAUTHAMMER: What it means that the Trump campaign has not succeeded in taking away his cell phone and that remains like job number one for Kellyanne and the rest of the gang. It was harmless at least the ones you showed on the screen, but he has shown in the last week that he can tweet in a way that can be very harmful to him and I don't think he ought to be allowed near one.
KELLY: You know, I think he's following the old I got to be me and...
KRAUTHAMMER: Well that's -- that's going to earn me at least one choice tweet from Donald. I suspect.
KELLY: I think I've received mine tonight. He was just letting me know that Kellyanne was here in the audience and he was out in Nevada and nobody was watching his phones and that became apparent soon thereafter. Charles, great to see you.
KRAUTHAMMER: My pleasure.
KELLY: Well, there was a long back and forth tonight when the moderator asked how both campaigns have addressed the issue of race and policing. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: The way you make community safer and the way you make police safer is through community policing.
Donald Trump said we need to do more stop and frisk around the country. That would be a big mistake because it polarizes the relationship between the police and the community.
PENCE: Community policing is a great idea. To use a broad brush to accuse law enforcement of implicit bias or institutional racist, I mean, and that really has got to stop. We are to assure the public that we'll have a full and complete and transparent investigation whenever there's a loss of life because of police action. But Senator, please, you know, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement broadly by making accusation of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs.
KAINE: Elaine, people shouldn't be afraid to bring up issues of bias in law enforcement. And if you're afraid to have...
PENCE: I'm not afraid to bring that up.
KAINE: If you're afraid to have the discussion, you'll never solve it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Fascinating. Joining me now, attorney and Trump supporter David Wohl and former Democratic National Committee spokesman Mo Elleithee. Great to see you both.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Megyn.
KELLY: That was extraordinary, wasn't it? I mean you don't hear the arguments that articulately bounce back and forth that often in today's debate which tends to descend into ugly places when you go on, I mean, to race in general, race and the police as well. David your thoughts.
DAVID WOHL, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, Tim Kaine basically said no stops, no frisks and if we get skyrocketing murder rates, oh, well, because I don't want to offend those people. I thought there was a tremendous counter punch by pence in that regard. What he said was, you known what, those people you're talking about offending, those are the victims of the people who aren't stopped, aren't frisked and carry guns and carry knives that end up killing people in the inner city.
So, you balance it, I mean, are you talking about worrying about offending people and not so much worrying about them dying at the hands of people who aren't stopped and frisked. And Rudy Giuliani proved it Megyn, and reality is that stop and frisk works. If you're not carrying weapons you can go on your merry way. If you are carrying something and you're found in possession you're arrested.
KELLY: But what about the messaging, Mo, as a political matter or what about the messaging to the cops, right, in particular because you've got African-Americans for whom this is a very big issue, and then you've got cops for whom this is a very big issue, and then the rest of society who watches it and is interested in it but it can't possibly be as powerful to them as those who are directly affected by these policies.
MO ELLEITHEE, FORMER DNC SPOKESMAN: Yeah, I think from just a purely political perspective, we can argue the substance. But just or purely political perspective, there are really two things at play here. One is Donald Trump keeps saying he wants to do more outreach to the African- American community. This is a nonstarter in the African-American community.
Stop and frisk is one of the least popular policies in the African-American community. And the second point is I think the Kaine message in that exchange was very telling because it basically said we are safer when there is more trust between the two sides.
KELLY: ...policing when they work together.
ELLEITHEE: Right, when they actually work together. Stop and frisk is one of the most divisive tools in recent history. And so, if we're going to actually find a way to eradicate this violence, we're going to have to bring the police and the community together, this is not the way to do it.
WOHL: Murder rates in Chicago skyrocketing, 3,000 (inaudible) this year means absolutely out of control and the reality is everything that its tried has failed. So, the reality is yes, community policing, get together with people saying look, we're going to go up to suspicious people on the streets and we're going to stop and frisk them. If they've got nothing, we're going to apologize about it...
ELLEITHEE: In New York...
WOHL: ...and you got to do something. They're getting killed in record numbers.
ELLEITHEE: In New York, the murder rate has gone down since stop and frisk has ended. And that shows that this notion of stop...
WOHL: That's just not true, 2014-2015, it's gone up.
ELLEITHEE: No, it's absolutely true. The list (ph) has gone down.
WOHL: Basically it's gone up.
KELLY: I think the sheer numbers show a slight rise in the murder rate but the numbers are not huge from '14 to '15 if memory serves. I'll have to fact check myself on that. But there's no different ways of looking at it because you can look at violent crime, you can look at murders. It's a lovely exercise if you want to walk down that lane.
But you tell me whether -- because Mike Pence, he sounded very thoughtful about it and he sounded defensive of police which -- is that typically a democratic voting block? I mean the police, they tend to be working class. I mean the unions and so on. Do they tend to vote democratic and do you think in an election like this they'll do so?
ELLEITHEE: You know, I think historically, right, historically there are some issues that you -- whoever has the D next to their name gets sort of an automatic, you know, advantage and whoever has the R next to their name gets an automatic advantage.
KELLY: With cops.
ELLEITHEE: I think law enforcement traditionally has been something that Republicans have sort of started off with an advantage on. I don't know if that's the case now. To be honest, I'm not sure either side really has much of an advantage right now. I think, you know, a whole notion of safety and public safety and law enforcement and crime, right now both sides, there is so much distrust on both sides. I don't know that there is a political advantage to be had other than to try to say I'm going to keep you safe by bringing a community together.
WOHL: Not so powerful voting block, Megyn. What's happened in Dallas? White cops murdered in New Orleans, two cops murdered. That is very powerful evidence on the Republican side to say look, we need to support them. There are some bad cops every once in a while, but overall -- and Pence had this right -- overall they want to do good, they want to help. And they've got to be able to...
KELLY: Before we go, you know, Tim Kaine got some guts (ph) tonight for interrupting too many people. And I have to ask you, Mo, whether he interrupted this critical moment that you shared with him years ago. Watch. You tell me whether he was interrupting you or whether he just let this play as it should have as you married your beautiful bride.
ELLEITHEE: He did a great job that night. We're still together. So at least whether or not you agree with him politically, you know he does this well.
KELLY: You were in the middle of like, all the days of my -- and lo to you!
ELLEITHEE: No. No. No interrupting. There was no speak now or forever hold your piece.
WOHL: And that was beautiful. Congratulations. Beautiful bride.
KELLY: Congratulations. That was very lovely.
ELLEITHEE: Thank you. I'm a lucky man.
KELLY: Great to see you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you though.
KELLY: Well, there were also some fierce exchanges tonight on the Iranian nuclear program, on terrorism, and on our domestic security. Nobody did this except for me. Let's start with that last point. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want to increase the Syrian Refugee Program by 500...
ELAINE QUIJANO, DEBATE MODERATOR: Governor, the question wasn't that home grown.
PENCE: But first, you know, let's make sure we're putting the safety and security of the American people first instead of Hillary Clinton expanding the Syrian...
KAINE: Or instead of you violating the constitution by blocking people based on their national origin rather than whether they're dangerous.
PENCE: It's not. That's absolutely false.
KAINE: Hillary and I will immigration enforcement and will vet refugees based on whether they're dangerous or not. We won't do it based discriminating against you from the country you come from or the religion.
PENCE: But the problem with that is we...
KAINE: That is completely antithetical like a Jeffersonian values...
PENCE: Look, the director of the FBI or Homeland Security said we can't know for certain who these people are coming are from Syria.
KAINE: So, if you don't let them know, we don't let them in.
(CROSSTALK)
KAINE: And we don't know who they are, we don't let them in.
PENCE: If the FBI and Homeland Security said we can't know for certain. You've got to err on the side of the safety and security of the American people, senator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Joining us now, two former White House insiders, Marc Thiessen, who's an American Enterprise Institute scholar and a Fox News contributor who served during the Bush administration and Austan Goolsbee who's an economics professor at the University Of Chicago Booth School Of Business, previously served as President Obama's former chief economist. Marc what did you think?
MARC THIESSEN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, I mean, what he said about Iran was completely and totally untrue. There were tons of foreign policy whoppers in this debate. But number one, Hillary Clinton didn't negotiate the deal, John Kerry did. And number two, it didn't eliminate the Iran's nuclear weapons program, it legalized it.
KELLY: Over and over. I just had this debate with Brian Fallon where I was just pressing him in the fact that she's claiming it's stopped, that the program had been stopped. It's been eliminated, and that's just not the case.
THIESSEN: Well, it's not the case at all.
KELLY: Here is the sound, let's just play it so they know what we're talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: She worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the Iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot.
PENCE: Eliminate the Iranian nuclear program?
KAINE: Absolutely. And without firing a shot, he doesn't want to acknowledge that we stopped the Iranian nuclear weapons program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: It's been eliminated and stopped.
THIESSEN: Except it hasn't. It's been legalized. It hasn't been eliminated. What the deal did was it reduced their nuclear stockpile of materials and lengthened their break out time for one they could have deal. But in expires in 15 years and in the meantime, Iran gets to keep its entire nuclear infrastructure. They get to continue developing ballistic missile.
They had four ballistic missile test since the deal was signed, so they get to develop the missile to one day deliver the nuclear weapons. And oh, by the way, we gave him a $150 billion with which to fund all of these. So far from eliminating Iran's nuclear program, that should make it more likely 15 years from now, there are going to be a nuclear weapons...
KELLY: Let's stop there and got to Austan on that. Austan, why is what Marc just said not correct?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: That's not correct at all. Look, as you might imagine, the negotiation and the treaty is far more complex than just a one dimensional thing. You can develop nuclear weapons on multiple tracks there, uranium bombs and plutonium bombs. The plutonium -- the entire highway was shut down. They filled with plutonium devices and developments with concrete.
The international inspectors have said there is no way that the plutonium channel is completely shut. Uranium channel, which, I might add, they had 5,000 centrifuges for during the Bush administration has been stalled and put off for at least 15 years. So, if you're going to say OK, they have the centrifuges and 15 years from now they can come back and try to re-ignite them, fine.
We can have that debate, but to make the argument that somehow, this treaty enabled their nuclear weapons program when their nuclear weapons program started and got to 5,000 centrifuges under the old regime is just totally misleading.
KELLY: I don't know what it's about whether it enabled it. But it's a fact check on whether eliminated was correct because he said 3 or 4 times. Go ahead Marc.
THIESSEN: Oh, he did. And also, I mean, the truth is that they continue to keep their nuclear stockpile and they have in fact, we just found out that they had a secret deal that we didn't know about between the Obama administration and the Iranian that allowed them because they're going to be in violation of even reducing and getting rid of that low enrich uranium that they had to change the deal before or else they're going to be out of compliance.
KELLY: I just want to move on to the next point
GOOLSBEE: Look, Megyn, We can have, we can have a negotiation if somebody - -
KELLY: Hold that thought. What is the other whopper?
THIESSENB: Well, the other whopper, he said, "terrorist threat has been decreased on her watch." I mean, good grief. Has he looked at the news in the last few months? I mean the fact is that when Hillary Clinton came into office in 2009, ISIS was completely defeated in Iraq. In fact, Joe Biden was running around saying Iraq was going to be one of the great achievements of the Obama administration.
And then today, ISIS is all over the world, we've gotten attacks in Paris, Brussels, Nice, San Bernardino, Orlando. They have carried out according to CNN analysis, 143 attack in 29 countries that have killed 2,043 people since Barack Obama declared them the JV team. How is that terrorism being decreased?
KELLY:M Austan?
GOOLSBEE: Look, Megyn, we can have a foreign policy negotiation on terrorist attacks -- you failed to remember, I think, that the primary thing that the Republicans were criticizing was Al Qaeda. They took out Osama Bin Laden, they took out the infrastructure of Al Qaeda. The terrorism coming from central Asia and Afghanistan is reduced. It's true we have had a rise of ISIS sponsored terrorism in Europe, but many of the terrorist actions that you describe in the United States were homegrown terrorists.
And so the policies of the Trump administration are not based on a intellectual debate like the one that Marc and I are having. Donald Trump's nuclear (inaudible) amounts to using a microwave oven. They have nonsense policies. And in this debate, I don't think we got into enough detail on those policies.
KELLY: Yeah, I know. All right, oh, you meant the debate we just watched? I thought you were criticizing me. If you're criticizing...
GOOLSBEE: No, the debate was just right (ph)
KELLY: If we started earlier, that's a totally different story. Austan great to see you. Mark, you too.
THIESSEN: Thanks Megyn.
KELLY: Up next, Chris Stirewalt and Tucker Carlson are here on how folks are reacting to what the candidates said about dollars and cents, the economy. Oh, something shocking. Coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: What you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending. More deficits, more debt, more government and if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table. I mean, the truth of the matter is the policies of this administration, which Hillary Clinton and Senator Kaine want to continue have run this economy into a ditch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: What you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government, and if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table. I mean, the truth of the matter is, the policies of this administration which Hillary Clinton and Senator Kaine want to continue have run this economy into a ditch.
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: ...recovery since the Great Depression. There are millions more people living in poverty today than the day that Barack Obama with Hillary Clinton at his side stepped on to the Oval office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Governor Mike Pence's claims about the economy already being run through the fact checking mills so, we called up to our favorite mill workers, Fox News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt along with "Daily Caller" founder and co-host of "Fox & Friends" Tucker Carlson, good to see you both.
CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Howdy.
KELLY: That was just one of the many, I mean, exchange that they went on the economy, they hit everything, just little poll (ph) policy and so on. Tucker, overall, does this thing move the needle? Does it move the needle at all?
TUCKER CARLSON, "FOX & FRIENDS" CO-HOST: It's pretty hard to know. I mean it wasn't bad for Trump. I think it's pretty clear that Pence won but in winning did he benefit anyone more than himself? I don't know. I do think there's a pretty large reservoir of voters who are open to voting for Trump but they're afraid of him. They think he's, you know, they think he's (inaudible) basically and volatile and did Pence's kind of calm irrational performance, I don't know.
I think on the Kaine side, clearly, he was not there to win. I really don't think he was. This was a human sacrifice. He wanted to remind the demographics that they're worried about in terms of turnout which to the African-American, Latino and single female voters, that Trump is really bad and in case you somehow didn't hear this, in the last year he said this awful things about you. That's what this was about. KELLY: Yes. And did he do that effectively? I mean...
STIREWALT: I mean, the number one goal is the hippocratic oath as it applies to one base.
KELLY: Do no harm.
STIREWALT: First, do not harm. Whatever else you do, don't do any harm. Tim Kaine didn't helped himself. Mike Pence helped himself and probably a lot of (inaudible) conservative Republicans will watch -- will have watched Mike Pence and said I like that guy. Maybe someone will say, I wish he was the top of the ticket, that he will be at least reassuring to those sort of...
KELLY: How about Kellyanne's suggestion that Kaine did do harm by -- she was suggesting it was sexist...
(TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES)
KELLY: He's not feeling that.
STIREWALT: Look. This is the vice presidential debate. Vice presidential debates are remembered only when there is a catastrophic failure of some kind or some just astonishing thing happens. You -- sort of a Jack Kennedy -- You, sir, are no Jack Kennedy, said Lloyd Bentsen.
KELLY: But even in that race Dan Qauyle won, you know.
STIREWALT: And it don't matter. It ain't mattered. That's just the truth.
CARLSON: It might help remind people that on the merits, it's pretty tough to defend the last eight years on the foreign policy side and on the economic side. I mean, clearly, I think you saw Pence allude to this, but we are facing some really ominous signs from the horizon. I mean, who doesn't think there's a debt crisis at least potentially coming our way. And that's the result of decisions that the people in power made. And so maybe he thinks it definitely reminds a person of that, that's got to help Trump, no?
STIREWALT: And I think maybe...
KELLY: So the non-partisan fact checkers who look into it suggest that Trump's plan is going to add $5 trillion to the debt.
CARLSON: Sure. I mean...
KELLY: So, I don't know.
CARLSON: But it's not...
KELLY: Tell me whether it helps him.
CARLSON: But it's not, I mean, you could certainly make that case and I think it's a crazy thing to say. But it's not a contest between two incumbents. Really, all Trump needs to do is say these people have failed and I'm not so scary that you can vote for me.
KELLY: Is it just me or is it like, listen, temperament is important.
STIREWALT: Yes.
CARLSON: Yes.
KELLY: Nuclear codes and all that. If Trump is a misogynist, that's important. Half the country happen to be women.
STIREWALT: What?
KELLY: Yeah, and many of the other half has little girls...
STIREWALT: This could be big.
KELLY: But we have heard precious little about ISIS and terror and press (ph) to the homeland, and things that actually have people very concerned.
STIREWALT: If there is one thing that Donald Trump could have been helped by in this debate, it was if he watched Mike Pence closely to see how you do that. So I absorb the blow, you attack me. OK, and you say, whatever, you're a jerk. And then you pivoted. And he did it on e-mails and he did it on Iran and he did it on ISSI. And time and time again when the attack came on Pence, he ably absorbed and deflected. So, if Trump was watching tonight and he was taking notes, this is how you do that.
KELLY: He clearly was and his and his notepad begins with a T and ends with an R.
STIREWALT: With a little bird on it.
CARLSON: I wonder, I mean, there were one point stuck to me because I'm interested in the subject, but it was very revealing. You saw Tim Kaine say our priorities are immigration policies, reuniting families, which is great for the families.
STIREWALT: I think it was a mess.
CARLSON: But of course the pint of immigration policy is to help your country. And if the Trump people I think are clever they will exploit that because that is one of the essential points...
KELLY: But Trump already got the people to whom immigration is important. He said they're already in his camp. Are they not? But I want to ask you this. You can answer that and then talk about the fact that we have a presidential debate happening in five days.
CARLSON: Yes.
KELLY: Five days. So, whatever news comes out of this gets squashed I guess, soon, because we're going to be focusing on the top of the ticket as fascinating is Pence and Kaine are.
CARLSON: And I'd be surprised if the Trump people want to keep three days without talking about how great Pence is. I just thought...
KELLY: He doesn't sound like Trump.
CARLSON: I don't see that, right. But I do think...
KELY: Whose name we found out today is not even on the Trump website. Governor Mike Pence was not mentioned apparently.
CARLSON: Right. That's true. But I got to say, you know, if you watch just what was good about Pence, you know, he's kind of common rational. I don't know, I think that is a good lesson that is obvious.
STIREWALT: Steady, stable, lots of balance, sober sided, seemed like an ordinary politician and some ways but in other ways, he seemed like a guy who was a leader, who was...
KELLY: But now, we're five days away from the next presidential debate.
STIREWALT: This will evaporate like a popsicle on a hot sidewalk. This does not have staying power. It was good to be here, but ain't going to last.
KELLY: And on that note, get out. Great to see you. We'll be right back with some final thoughts after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: So some on twitter are suggesting that a Trump advisor is out there saying Pence won overall but lost with Trump because he didn't defend Trump at every turn, but in the meantime, Donald Trump is tweeting this himself, "Mike Pence won big. We should all be proud of Mike." What do you think? Let us know. Go to foxnews.com I don't know, /facebook, it was like facebook.com/thekellyfile, on Twitter @megynkelly. Let me know what you think. Thanks for watching everybody. I'm Megyn Kelly. Live edition of "Hannity" starts right now.
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