Dallas shootings: Policing, race in America and Black Lives Matter

This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," July 11, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, it has been less than four days since the murder of five police officers in Dallas, Texas, and still the protests, the violence, and the threats against law enforcement continue to build in a handful of American communities.

Tonight we have gathered a special group together to try to find out why.  Welcome to a special "Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. We are less than 24 hour away right now from an incredible tribute to the officers murdered in Dallas as two presidents, one current and one former, prepare to speak to the nation in one of their view joint addresses since President George W. Bush left the White House.

But tomorrow's tribute comes after a weekend of angry clashes that resulted in the arrests of more than 300 protesters. Police in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where a black suspect was shot and killed by police last week, today are expecting more unrest after a weekend in which activists shut down roadways and marched on both the state capitol and the police department. In St. Paul, where another black man was shot and killed by police last week, authorities say protesters attacked police with rocks, bricks, bottles, and chunks of concrete, one of which reportedly fractured a police officer's spine.

So what happens next? In moments we'll put that question to a powerful panel of activists from all sides of this debate. And with protests in Atlanta flaring up just moments ago, complete with arrests and police being pelted with projectiles, this debate is clearly far from over. We're watching that breaking news for you tonight.

In the meantime, Trace Gallagher is live at our breaking news desk in the West Coast Newsroom with the latest on protests tonight. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: In Atlanta, first Megyn, anywhere from 300 to 500 protesters now marching through Buckhead, that's an affluent business and residential area in Atlanta. They've been marching and chanting, quote, "Whose street?" Our street. So far, they have blocked of intersections as well as the entrance to a mall. They're hoping to get the attention they say of those with money, who they believe might be dismissive of the Black Lives Matter movement. There have been arrests, but so far nobody hurt. We are keeping our eyes on that.

This weekend, several St. Paul police officers were injured after being pelted with bricks and bottles. St. Paul, of course, is where Philando Castile was shot and killed by police. Castile's girlfriend claims he admitted having a gun conceal carry permit and was shot while reaching for his wallet. The officer claims he was reacting to Castile's gun, not his race. In Baton Rouge, where Alton Sterling was shot and killed by police, more than 200 protesters were arrested including the outspoken Black Lives Matter activist DeRay McKesson, who live streamed his arrest.

The Baton Rouge police chief also acknowledged that one of his officers pointed an assault weapon at protesters, but that a supervisor quickly intervened. The chief says, quoting my officers are human. They are tired. They are scared. Meantime in the Dallas investigation, Police Chief David O. Brown has now revealed that during more than two hours of negotiations, the killer laughed. He sang and asked how many officers he killed.

The chief says the shooter was clearly planning a larger attack because inside his home, police found bomb-making materials that had the potential to, quote, "have devastating effects throughout Dallas and North Texas."  They also found ballistic vests, rifles, ammunition, and a journal of combat tactics, including a method to keep moving to confuse the enemy.  Police believe the shooter fast-tracked his plans in order to kill those police officers. Today the killer's father spoke out to The Blaze. Watch.


JAMES JOHNSON, MICAH JOHNSON'S FATHER: I didn't see it coming. I love my son with all my heart. I hate what he did.


GALLAGHER: And before the killer was blown up by a police robot, he apparently used blood to write the letters RB on the walls of the parking garage. It remains unclear what those letters stand for -- Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you. Well, we wanted to speak with people who are at the heart of this issue, and in fact two of our panelists could not be here tonight because they were arrested this past weekend. Black Lives Matter activist DeRay McKesson, who Trace just told you about, was actually supposed to be here tonight, plus Jamal Green had agreed to appear before police in Chicago arrested him on Saturday. His attorney is here to speak on his behalf.

Thank you all, panel, so much for being here. It's obviously a very difficult issue. And I'll ask you, all of you, whoever wants to volunteer, why you think this time we haven't already gotten to a place of, all right, let's lower the temperatures. What we're seeing in the wake of last week is an escalation of sorts after what we saw in Dallas and after what we saw in Louisiana and Minnesota. Things seem to be getting worse and more inflamed. Anyone want to take that?

Go ahead. Yes, yes, yes. Go ahead, Darrin.

DARRIN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT: All right. One of the first things we have to take into consideration, this is not one incident.  Police basically protect us as a society. We need to respect police because this is what they're here to do. If not, we're going to have the movie "The Purge." We have to take into consideration that this -- these two incidents that happened both in Minnesota and what happened in Louisiana are not apparitions.

The Black community felt that they've been -- they've received a level of injustice for a period of time, and therefore we've had this explosion.  However, I don't agree with the execution. A calmer heads need to prevail.  Everyone needs to sit down at the table, the major stakeholders and devise a strategy as a --  

KELLY: So how does the Black community make its concerns heard -- you go ahead. Go ahead, sir. Go ahead, Carl Dix.

CARL DIX, STOP MAS INCARCERATION NETWORK: Look, this problem has been going on for -- I mean I can't -- there's no time to list all the names.  We see those videos. Put them on top of hundreds and hundreds of people, more than 500 this year have been killed by the police. We have seen -- we have seen people killed doing nothing wrong.

KELLY: The vast majority involved people who were shooting at police or had guns pointed at police. Those are the stats. I'm not saying all of them. I'm not saying all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More whites are killed -- yes, but disproportionately, Black people are killed.

KELLY: Let Carl finish his point.


Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Carl, then Lisa and Rocco. Go ahead.

DIX: Look, and see, that's the problem. The leader of the revolution has said the role of the police is not to protect and serve the people but to protect and serve the system that rules over the people.

KELLY: Okay. Lisa, go.

DIX: And that is exactly what it comes down to and it's why I'm organizing for a revolution.

LISA DURDEN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Someone say they're out there, and they're afraid. The police are afraid. What are you telling me? Police officers take an oath to protect us from criminal activity, and if you're telling me you are scared --

KELLY: They just got shot in the head while trying to protect the community.

DURDEN: What does it make me? They're running through the streets --

KELLY: They got gunned down like they were prey.

DURDEN: They're running through the black neighborhood and they're afraid and they're shooting us senselessly because they're scared. What are they scared of?

KELLY: All right. Rocco, go ahead. Rocco, right behind Lisa.

ROCCO LIMITONE, CONSERVATIVE VOTER: More to your point, the reason why this is escalating more is because of our leaders. The leaders have been fanning the flames along with media and along with social media. Now, here's what happens. Someone posts something on Facebook, and it goes into the news, and it's only a part of what happened. And everyone goes crazy.  Right away it's the cops. Right away it's the cops. You know what? These cops go out there. They're taking their life in their hands every day.  They're scared, yes. And they're careful -- and they're careful because -- because --

KELLY: Go ahead, Pastor Mark Burns in the back row. Pastor Mark burns.  Go ahead, Pastor.


Go ahead, Pastor.

PASTOR MARK BURNS, THE HARVEST PRAISE & WORSHIP CENTER: They're afraid because in today's society, cops are walking on eggshells because they don't want to show up on the next cell phone video and be automatically condemned before facts are even pointed. That's the problem.

KELLY: Okay. Renada. Renada down in front.


All right. Stand by over here on the left. Renada, go ahead. Go for it.

RENADA ROMAIN, SIRIUS XM HOST: This is why we can't come up with a solution because no one wants to listen to one another.


ROMAIN: We should all be outraged over Dallas. We should be outraged over Minnesota. We should be outraged for what happened in Baton Rouge. No one should have lost their lives. The list continues, and it continues to go on. We are not going to get better until we all agree on what the problem is. Then we can come up with a solution.

KELLY: You say don't forget Baltimore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't forget Baltimore.

KELLY: In Baltimore we've had acquittals or a hung jury in all the cases.  The officers have been exonerated by the court.

PASTOR WESTLEY WEST, FAITH EMPOWERED MINISTRIES: I'm a pastor there in Baltimore, a young pastor at that. Even as a pastor, I'm afraid to come out my church. Let's be honest. The police are not trained properly.  They police this committee -- they're not even from the communities in which they're policing.

KELLY: But what specific -- can I ask you specifically in Baltimore because in that case, so far we've had acquittals of the officers there.  They've had their day in court --

WEST: Exactly.

KELLY: -- and they have been acquitted by an African-American judge.

WEST: You have to remember --

KELLY: No, no, let him answer. Let him answer. Go ahead.

WEST: The system is designed to protect the system, not the citizens --

KELLY: So is the judge racist? Is the judge issuing racist decisions?

WEST: I would say again the system is set. However you want to take that, the system is set and designed to protect the system.

KELLY: Bill Stanton, go ahead.

BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Megyn, quick question, political leaders that are saying this is race-based, the two shootings. Other than the fact that the victims were Black and the officers were White, where is there due process and where is there any proof as of yet that this was a racist-based shooting?

KELLY: Go ahead.


Lauren, Lauren, Lauren. And then I'm going to get over to you guys.

LAUREN CHIVEE, CO-FOUNDER, ALL IN TOGETHER: The point is the right one that you made a minute ago, right? It's not about -- in many cases, it's not about the specifics of any one of these cases. I think we as White Americans have to respect and empathize with the Black community in this country who, whether they are right or wrong, feel aggrieved. And we don't -- you don't have to agree. You don't have to understand that experience.  Newt Gingrich said it beautifully this week. For white Americans, we may not personally relate to it.


The question is as Americans, can we feel a sense of compassion and understanding for large groups of --

KELLY: What about that because it's a very different -- we saw this dating back to the O.J. Simpson case, right? Where white America reacted very differently than Black America because whites have had different experiences with the most part with law enforcement than Blacks have.  Kevin, go ahead. Kevin Jackson on the front.

KEVIN JACKSON, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: The gentleman back there said exactly the right thing. Why are we talking about this as a black/white issue with cops, right or wrong, they did something. The other thing that the Pastor said, he talked about systematic stuff. The system that he's talking about was a Baltimore black mayor, a Baltimore black state attorney. You know, cops who the police chief who was black. Let me just finish. And everybody in that system was pretty much black. Cops involved were black, and we're talking about it as if there was some boogeyman KKK guy that set this thing up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boogeyman is the government.

JACKSON: The government that we're talking about here -- the government that we're talking about here.


KELLY: Go ahead, Kevin.

JACKSON: The government we're talking about here is a government that is controlled by a president who is black, an Attorney General who is black, and before him, who is black, and we continue to colorize this. The problem is because we aren't having discussions. We're having arguments as opposed to saying, you know what, the black community is complicit. The cops are complicit. How about we just have a discussion?

KELLY: I want to go to Joe Hicks here on the front.

JOE HICKS, FORMER CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Yes. It's that, but, you know, we heard from Dix. This has now become an ideological issue. So, you've got people now that are looking at this in terms of using the issues of people dying, several people in fact, and now five dead in Dallas. And you've got people that are seeing this from a very ideological perspective. I think that's what the problem with Black Lives Matter issue. The people who are now controlling and directing it have a very ideological direction here.

KELLY: They're not open-minded, you're saying, to the facts. They have an agenda.

HICKS: What's the shouting back and forth about? It isn't about engagement and listening.

KELLY: Passions run deep when, as you know when many in the black community feel that they're more likely to get shot in the face if they get pulled over and also amongst the cops, who are just trying to protect these protesters and they get shot in the head. I got to leave it at that because we have many more segments we're going to get to it. All of you.  I have to give some love to this side of the room which has not been loved in the first segment.  

Tonight, we are also watching a somber service at Dallas City Hall Plaza.  As candles are lit in memory of the five officers that gave their lives protecting the protesters last week.

Plus, angry new fallout after some controversial remarks from former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. The panel is back in moments on this.

MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY: And when you say Black Lives Matter, that's inherently racist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think they are --

GIULIANI: Black Lives Matter, White Lives Matter. Asian lives matter.  Hispanic lives matter. That's anti-America, and it's racist.


KELLY: Breaking tonight, angry new fallout after the man who has been called America's mayor touches off a fierce debate by saying Black Lives Matter is racist. Here's former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani followed by Black Lives Matter Leader DeRay McKesson.

GIULIANI: When you say Black Lives Matter, that's inherently racist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think their argument --

GIULIANI: Black Lives Matter. White lives matter. Asian lives matter.  Hispanic lives matter. That's anti-American, and it's racist. So if you want to deal with this on the black side, you've got to teach your children to be respectful to the police.

DERAY MCKESSON, BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVIST: His statements reminds us that he is both a disgrace to the country and an embarrassment. He is deflecting so that we are not engaged in a conversation about the abuses of the police inflict on communities of color time and time again.


KELLY: I want to bring back our panel, a special group tonight.

All right. Let me just start because I think Sergeant Ed Mullins. You may have some thoughts in this. NYPD Sergeants Benevolent Association. Rudy Giuliani has gotten a lot of push back on this already. He's made similar comments in the past. Was he out of line with that comment?

SGT. ED MULLINS, NYPD SERGEANTS BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: I think Rudy is highlighting an issue that we see from law enforcement and we can look at Chicago. We can look at the city of Baltimore when we see the riots and burning down your own community. From the perspective of all lives matter.  As law enforcement, all lives do matter. And Rudy is saying that. And, you know, we're going to talk about, you know, Black Lives Matter, we should be talking about how everyone's life matters.

The clip you play in the very beginning of shooter in Dallas, his dad, if you have children, whether we agree with what he did or not, there's a father who is heartbroken right now for what his son did. And you can take that man and translate him into the families of the police officers, the families of the individuals that were shot in Louisiana and Minnesota, or anyone who has had a child that was murdered. You know, we've had dozens and dozens of children in the city of Chicago under the age of 12 years old that were murdered, and we're not talking about that.

KELLY: Mayor Giuliani was saying that Black Lives Matter only cares when the black life that's taken is taken by a white police officer. That was his point.

Go ahead. Okay. In the back, go ahead, Pastor Mark Burns.

BURNS: Yes. Well, first of all, I said that, and I know it's extremely controversial. But the fact of the matter is it seems like black lives don't really matter until a black life is killed by a white cop because the fact of the matter is, it's not so much what white cops do to the Black community, but what do us as black people do to our own community. That's a fact. Giuliani brought in --

KELLY: Go ahead. In the front. Westley West. Sorry. Sorry. In the front.

WEST: With all due respect to the pastor, I'm a pastor myself. But I will say you have to be involved in the Black Lives Matter movement to understand. It is not a moment, but it's a movement. Here it is. Check this out. We are talking about the black community is rebuilding itself here, loving itself, not just against white people, but they're dealing with issues within themselves. So let's not just talk about we are just Black Lives Matter as it --

KELLY: Let me ask you. Let me ask you. One of the things that got some people alienated against Black Lives Matter was the chanting that we saw after -- right around the time the two New York City cops got executed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pigs in the blanket --

KELLY: Well, before that, it was what do we want, dead cops, when do we want them? Now. We haven't seen that at every Black Lives -- at all. Go ahead, Lisa. Go ahead.  

DURDEN: Everyone wants to deflect when we're getting blown in the head with bullets -- hold on.


DURDEN: By saying -- excuse me. By saying that --

KELLY: Hold on. Let her finish.

DURDEN: Hold on. Let me finish. Let me finish.

KELLY: Hold on. Let her finish. Let Lisa finish.

DURDEN: By saying, excuse me. Hold on. Everybody always says when we get shot in the head and we're killed in the streets, but Blacks are killing each other. Number one, oh, you want to kill us too? Number two, let's be real clear. Racism and murder in your community is interracial.  Interracial. Eighty seven percent of all the white murders happen in the white community perpetrated by whites. It's no different than our community, but you just see us on TV doing it. All communities murder each other. It's interracial, so don't --

KELLY: Okay. Go ahead, in the back.

DURDEN: Don't try to deflect.

REV. JESSE LEE PETERSON, CONSERVATIVE TELEVISION AND RADIO HOST: The fact is that Black Lives Matter is a racial, radical, evil organization. They are worse than the KKK.

KELLY: Let him have his say.

PETERSON: They are worse than the KKK. And Black America, who are suffering, are not suffering because of racism. They are suffering because they are growing up without fathers and mothers in their homes, and these kids have first been made angry in the home about that. And rather than deal with that anger --

KELLY: Let him finish. Let him finish. Go ahead.

PETERSON: Rather than dealing with that anger, they go out into the community, and they have people like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP, Barack Obama, and others telling them it's the white man. And when you're already angry, it's hard to believe the truth.  

KELLY: We're going to talk about Barack Obama in a minute. Chris Hahn, you had your hand up. Right there, yes. Go ahead. Chris Hahn.

CHRIS HAHN, PROGRESSIVE RADIO HOST: I'm trying to go back to Giuliani, and I think what he says reflects a fundamental problem White America has with understanding racism in America. They see a black president, and they say, like a broken arm, it's healed. Unfortunately, racism is like alcoholism.  It is there under the surface --


It is only there. We need to be vigilant to watch out for it. And the Black Lives Matter movement is not asking you to choose between black and white lives. It's asking you to acknowledge this racism that exists in America.

KELLY: Go ahead. Michael Oppenheimer.

MICHAEL OPPENHEIMER, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Part of the problem is this has been going on for decades and decades and decades. In Chicago, especially, you have a history of the Police Department, a panel appointed by Rahm Emanuel found there is inherent racism. There is also lack of accountability. You have for years and years and years, not just shootings but planted drugs, false stops. Verbal and physical abuse of people that are pulled over. You have false traffic stops without probable cause.

This has been hidden and covered up for years and years and years. It is only when there is a shooting that we hear about this. I have hundreds of cases where this has happened, and it's gone on and on and on. And then when this happens, so we need better training of police officers. We need psychological training so they can deal with mentally ill people. Recently a person was shot swinging a bat --

KELLY: Okay. Okay. And then we'll talk about whether anything needs to happen, you know, with the constituents, with the crime rate, with the fatherless families, whether that plays any role as we just heard. Let's wait. And we'll do that right after this commercial break. We've got to pay the bills.  

We're also hearing some sharp new questions tonight about President Obama and how he's handled this issue. Brit Hume had some strong words for President Obama tonight. That's next.


BRIT HUME, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He has made his sympathy for the Black Lives Matter movement obvious, and never mind that the whole premise of that movement seems to be fallacious.




HUME: In Dallas Tuesday, President Obama will be trying to calm racial tensions that his own behavior has done much to aggravate. From his denunciation of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, police has acting, quote, "Stupidly" in the arrest of Black Harvard Law Professor Henry Louis Gates, they didn't, to his assertions that the motivations of the Dallas cop killer are unclear. They aren't. The President has consistently chosen to see things through the eyes of an aggrieved Black activist rather than as a president of all the people.

He has not failed to speak out whenever a black is killed by a white police officer but has said next to nothing about the continuing slaughter of blacks by other blacks in the streets of Chicago, Baltimore, and other cities. He has made his sympathy for the Black Lives Matter movement obvious, and never mind that the whole premise of that movement seems to be fallacious.


KELLY: That was FOX News senior political analyst Brit Hume leveling some strong criticism against President Obama for his handling of this issue.  Back now with our panel as we're also keeping an eye on some tense protests in Atlanta tonight, where you can just see the tensions have not calmed down. They have not calmed down in the wake of what we saw in those three cities last week. Two black men killed by police and then Dallas, Texas, five police officers murdered.

Anthony Colandro, you got your hands up in the back.

ANTHONY COLANDRO, FOUNDER, GUN FOR HIRE: Yes. I couldn't agree with Brit Hume more. Since Obama has been elected, I've been calling him our divider in chief. And he's been fanning these flames that have grown to this point. And he only listens to people like Al Sharpton -- excuse me, Al Charlatan. He only listens to these people on this side, and he's done more to hurt this cause and create this situation we're in rather than embracing law enforcement and all of us together as Americans. He's created this racial divide that I don't see but the media and the press at large see.  

KELLY: Eric, has the president stirred racial tensions alleged?

ERIC GUSTER, BLACK LIVES MATTER SUPPORTER: The president has not stirred racial tensions. A lot of people are very unhappy that there's an African- American president at their helm.

KELLY: Correct.

GUSTER: There are many white Americans who don't even want a black boss. But now you tell them, hey, I have -- you have a president of the United States who is African-American, that's one issue. But the second issue, back to policing, back to Black Lives Matter as well as policing, there are two major issues, Megyn and I'll echo the lawyer from Chicago. Number one, there are hiring problems. The police officers need to be psychologically screened before hiring.

Some of these people who go on and get a badge, they should not have any type of job involving a gun or any type of security. Secondly -- no, let me finish, Kevin. And the second -- the second issue are quotas. The second issue are quotas involving African-Americans and poor people who are stopped and harassed by police because police are put on a quota system that they have to write a number of tickets. And also make arrests.


KELLY: Deneen Borelli, go ahead.

GUSTER:, but the issue -- but the issue is socio-economic as well.

DENEEN BORELLI, CONSERVATIVE REVIEW: Let me just say this. Obama continues to be the community activist that he is instead of being a leader for our country. He weighed in from Poland on what happened in Dallas, didn't have all of the details. And when it came down to the individual being a black racist, Obama changes the narrative to blame guns for what happens because being a black racist doesn't fit his narrative to say that black Americans are victims.

KELLY: Gail in the front. Go ahead.

GAYLE TROTTER, SECOND AMENDMENT ADVOCATE: That's right because all Americans should let President Obama know that this example of what happened last week should not be another excuse to advance his ideological goal to eliminate guns in the United States. Because communities like Chicago that are run by Democrats...

KELLY: But the -- we'll get to guns, but the question is as President Obama alleges, that the president -- as Brit Hume alleges, the president highlighted cases for example in Ferguson, Missouri, which we now know was built on a lie. They did find racism within that police department, but what we were told about hands up, don't shoot, was a lie.

And it is one of the mantras of the movement, which is what upsets -- go ahead, Richard Fowler. Is it one of the reasons along with, what do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now. White people thinks -- I don't know about this movement.

RICHARD FOWLER, NEW LEADERS COUNCIL SENIOR FELLOW: I think there's a misperception about the Black Lives Matter movement because it goes beyond just the killing of black people by police officers. It goes to what happened in Flint, Michigan, where the white governor put in his emergency manager and poisoned the poor black people in that city.


FOWLER: That's exactly what happened. Detroit public school system is another example where that happened.

KELLY: Richard, you and I both know the main way in which people know BLM is the protest over police officers' behavior.

FOWLER: No, but they did this. You can't -- I think there's a lot -- listen, everybody keeps throwing around the word racism. Let's be very clear on what racism is. Racism is when a predominant group who has power uses that power to degregate (ph) or discriminate against another group.

JELLY: Go ahead, Joe Hicks in the front.

FOWLER: So the same thing -- I would call ISIS racist, and I would call what happened...

KELLY: We're going to do Joe Hicks and then we're going to do Tom.

JOE HICKS, FORMER CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Here's a gentleman trading conspiracy theories that a governor in Flint, Michigan, conspired to kill its black citizens. And by the way -- by the way -- by the way, it's not just black people in Flint, Michigan, so he's going to kill a whole lot of white folks.


KELLY: Let him finish. Go ahead. Let him finish. Go ahead.

HICKS: The guy behind me that played the ultimate Strawman theory, he said that everybody said because Obama was put in the presidency, then racism is taken care of. Who said that? Who said that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody said that.

HICKS: Do you think people are that stupid, that they aren't a sophisticated nut? And as soon as the issue of black people killing black people, this woman went completely ballistic. Last week -- last week -- wait a minute. You were running your mouth.

KELLY: Go ahead, let him finish.

HICKS: Wait a minute. Last week -- last week, three people were walking out a liquor store in San Bernardino -- people are familiar with San Bernardino because that's where the massacre took place. Two black men and a 9-year- old boy walking out of a liquor store mowed down by a black suspect. Where was Black Lives Matter? Did you guys mobilize in San Bernardino?


KELLY: Go ahead.

LAUREN CHIVEE, ALL IN TOGETHER CO-FOUNDER: We can argue about this all day. Conservatives and liberals agree that we need criminal justice reform immediately.


CHIVEE: This is not a partisan issue. This is an issue based on facts. You've got the Koch brothers. You've got Rand Paul working with Cory Booker because -- because there are systematic issues in our criminal justice system...

KELLY: But what is that -- what is -- okay.

CHIVEE: ...that if we do not deal with them, set aside whether or not we agree on whose racist or whose not. The facts and the numbers speak for themselves, which is why you have ultra-conservative groups.

KELLY: Okay, but as Brit Hume pointed out -- but let me challenge you -- but as Brit Hume pointed out, there was just a Harvard study that concluded the police are more likely to shoot whites than blacks, and the man behind the study, an African-American man at Harvard, called the study the most surprising result of his career. That you are more likely to get shot by a police officer if you are white, they concluded.


KELLY: Go ahead, actually, we haven't heard from Carl in a while. Go ahead, Carl.

CARL DIX, BLACK LIVES MATTER SUPPORTER: White people are shot by police than any other group, that's true. But disproportionately black people, native people, and Latinos are -- the percentages of them shot by police are greater.

KELLY: This was factored in. This was factored in. That actually -- this was before the study.

DIX: We're not solving anything by saying they shoot white people too. I'm saying the role of the police is not to protect the people, but to protect the system that rules over them.


KELLY: We got to wrap? We're going to come right back. Don't worry. Plenty more to go through. It's only 9:36. The night is young. While we keep an eye on these protests in Atlanta, we're hearing a couple of folks suggest that the shooter over in Dallas was a "martyr." We'll put that to the panel when we come back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the world headquarters of Fox News, it's "The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly.

KELLY: Welcome back, everybody. We are watching the crowds grow at this candlelight vigil in Dallas. We saw a provocative headline late today asking whether the Dallas shooter is, "a hero or a villain." A hero? For more on that, we turn to our panel. It's really unbelievable.

The first -- correct me if I'm wrong, control room, but it's the first African-American Miss Alabama. She won in '83, came out today -- 93 -- and said I see this guy as a martyr. I see the shooter in Dallas, Texas, as a martyr. A martyr? Go ahead.

TEISHA POWELL, CONSERATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: They're getting exactly what they wanted. They wanted us to kill cops, and that's what black people are doing. They're killing cops. They are responding -- they are responding --

KELLY: We're going to go to Jessica -- Jessica in the front. Hold on, hold on. Jessica is part of Black Lives Matter.

JESSICA DISU, BLACK LIVES MATTER SUPPORTER: Black Lives Matter has never called for the shooting of advice (ph) against anyone, period.

KELLY: What about, "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want them?"


DISU: First of all, what I've been hearing here -- this is reason why our young people are hopeless in America. Our young are hopeless because you have all these adults here who are not listening into our young people -- they talk about black on black crimes in Chicago. I'm from Chicago. My organizing and activism has been on intercommunity bias. We understand like what she was talking about. We get the point. We're not trying to say...

KELLY: Let her finish, let her finish .

DISU: We need to abolish the police, period.

KELLY: Abolish the police?

DISU: De-militarize the police. Disarm the police, and we need to come up with community solutions for transformative justice. What we are seeing with all these cases, what we are seeing -- can we all agree that a loss of a life is tragic? Can we all agree on that? Can we all agree -- I'm asking. I have a point here.

I've been peaceful since I've been here, but I need to speak because I came here from Chicago to speak, right? And so we all can agree that the loss of a life is tragic. We all can agree that excessive force and extra judicial killings by law enforcement needs to be stopped. People, black, white, Hispanic...

KELLY: Who's going to protect the community if we abolish the police?

DISU: We need to come up with community solutions. The police -- the police work in this country began as slave patrol.


KELLY: Anyone? Any of that, like, wants to take that, anybody? Yes, tell me who hasn't spoken yet. Kevin since you're right there, go ahead.

KEVIN JACKSON, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Careful answer, the guy is a villain. It doesn't matter what color he was. It doesn't matter who got killed. He killed people.

KELLY: Is there anybody here who sees that guy as a martyr?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, of course not.



KELLY: You don't see him as a martyr?

DISU: If he is a martyr, then Dylann Roof who went to that church and shot nine people in Charleston is a martyr. You understand what I'm saying? Are you guys proud of what Dylann Roof did? Is white America -- I'm asking. I'm asking.


KELLY: No. The answer is no.


KELLY: Okay. All right, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. It's crossing over into...

DISU: He wasn't a martyr.

KELLY: We don't want it to be Springeresque, right. We want it to be Kelly Filesque (ph). Go ahead Ron

RON HOSKO, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: We have 15 minutes. We need to talk about solutions. We need to invest in our police like we invest in critical infrastructure. If we don't, our bridges fall. Our pipelines blow up. Our trains go off the rails.

KELLY: What do you do about the cops who are racist, who do have a happy trigger finger?

HOSKO: We need transparency. We need leadership. We need to invest in a culture of compliance and constitutional policing, and we don't do it on a shoestring budget where there are too few cops going from 911 call to 911 call, where you can't have officer friendly on the street making friends and influencing people because he's in a patrol car flying by to the next call. We have to invest.

KELLY: I'm just curious for any of the cops here what you think would happen if we abolished the police force. Tom, you go in the back.

TOM MORELLI, CONSERVATIVE REVIEW CONTRIBUTOR: First of all, we're not going to abolish -- let's get back into reality here. We're not going to abolish the police first of all. Second of all, the shooter in Dallas as well as the shooter in the church are both psychotic mutants. Let's call that what it is. Third of all, we live in still a largely racist, sexist, homophobic society.


MORELLI: The police are a sub-culture within our overall culture. I will always advocate for investing in the police, in improved training, but until we root out the cancer of racism in our country as well as sexism and homophobia, we are doomed as a nation. We are divided instead of united.

KELLY: In the front. Yes, Emily Compagno.

EMILY COMPAGNO, FORMER FEDERAL ATTORNEY: We spend $80 billion dollars a year right now in our incarceration system. And that's of our $200 billion budget on law enforcement and protection. So, right now what I see is a huge discrepancy as well is that poor -- is the poor communities because they are in turn adversely and greatly impact the minority communities.

So, what I see is instead of spending $80 billion on this incarceration system, why don't we shift some of those funds into these drug treatment programs because what I saw as a federal attorney is that all of these incarceration does not address these highly addictive, for example, drug abusers. When we have mandatory minimum sentencing...

KELLY: And there are Republicans and Democrats working on that right now. Bill Stanton, go ahead sir.

BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: This is (inaudible) itself, I'll tell you why. Because we're all listening to what we each -- we're listening to ourselves. Nobody is listening to each other. You know what works? Pastor Wesley and I before the show started, him and I are as polar opposite as we can get on perception and everything.

You and I are talking we're going to go out for a beer. He's a nice guy. We don't have to agree to get along, and we have to listen to what the other person is actually saying.

KELLY: I have had drinks with Bill many times. I don't recommend it. Go ahead.


KELLY: Go ahead Wesley.

WESLEY WEST, FAITH EMPOWERED MINISTRIES: I want to say this please. I must say this. We talk about solutions. I love what he just said. It's time for the police to go in on the basis of their relationship and not the basis of their authority. It is the authority that...

KELLY: We are seeing more community policing. We are seeing more partnering with the community. We are seeing it in Dallas.

WEST: Okay, listen, I'm from Baltimore. Again, on the ground -- on the ground, I only see that happen -- togetherness and relationship -- only when the cameras are out. What about when CNN has gone away, Fox has gone away. What happens?


KELLY: Even in Dallas. Even in Dallas where those cops were doing that, they were doing that before they were shot down. Yeah, go ahead.

DISU: We talked about investing more in the police. How about we divest from the police and take that money and put it into youth programs. We talk about all these crimes and violence in our community. In Chicago, the police spent $4 million a day -- $4 million a day, and we're closing 50 schools. The Chicago police probably takes up 40 percent of the city's budget.

KELLY: All right. I've got to go. Got to go. Got to go. Here's a question. Who can you unify Americans when we've already seen, even on this panel, the divisions over this issue? I mean it gets crazy, but it shows you how deeply the passions run, and this is just a microcosmos of what we're seeing in America. Hillary Clinton's answer versus Donald Trump's after the break.  


KELLY: Breaking tonight, new reaction to how presumptive major party nominees are balancing praise for police officers while recognizing that many people of color feel unfairly targeted. We're already seeing how Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton plan to address the divide, raising the question, who will be better at unifying our nation. Take a look.


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I will bring law enforcement and communities together to develop national guidelines on the use of force by police officers.


We will make it clear for everyone to see when deadly force is warranted and when it is not.

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We must maintain law and order at the highest levels or we will cease to have a country. One hundred percent we will cease to have a country. I am the law and order candidate.



KELLY: We're back now with our panel. Tom, your thoughts.

TOM BORELLI, CONSERVATIVE REVIEW CONTRIBUTOR: My thoughts are there's too much crime in the black community, too much unemployment in the black community. What we need is major tax reform, and that's what Mr. Trump is talking about. Hillary Clinton wants to raise energy taxes, energy prices, through regulations. That is a racist policy because blacks have the lowest average income and higher energy process (ph).

FOWLER: Okay, that's the craziest thing I've heard all night. But moving on -- moving on.

BORELLI: No, no, no. It's wrong. No you can't.

KELLY: Go ahead. Richard Fowler, let him.

FOWLER: You're going to start to calm yourself down?

BORELLI: You're wrong. You're wrong. No, no. I'm not going to let you sit here and lie.

KELLY: Richard Fowler, go ahead. The microphone is yours.


KELLY: Richard, start talking or I'm going to leave you.

FOWLER: He probably thinks I was going to be aggressive first, but hey, whatever. Here's the thing. What Donald Trump will do, this week the Bahamas, right, the country of Bahamas issued a travel warning against the United States and telling their citizens that if they come here, they're likely to get mowed down by police officers. If that doesn't tell you that we have a problem in this country, then what will? What will? His reaction is part of the problem.

BORELLI: My reaction?

FOWLER: Yes, your reaction.


KELLY: Okay. In the back, thank you, Maggie Gallagher. Go for it.

MAGGIE GALLAGHER, AMERICAN PRINCIPLES PROJECT: You know, this is a very discouraging conversation to me because what I see is that five cops in Dallas were deliberately targeted. That was an attack on each and every one of us. But a cop was shot in Ballwin, Missouri, in Georgia, in Tennessee.

Tonight I see in Michigan, somebody grabbed a gun from the deputy and shot two bailiffs. The reality here is that what is new and what we have spent no time talking about is that we seem to have created a climate in which it is open season on cops. There is no right to resist arrest.

KELLY: How about that because I'll tell you, Maggie's comments have been reflected on Twitter where people are saying if folks would be more compliant when placed under arrest, even if they're innocent, they would not find themselves the target of police. Go ahead, in the front, let's get Renata, go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we all know if Philando Castile was white and he was with his white child and white girlfriend or white wife, he would be alive today. I think it's open season and it's open season -- excuse me. Excuse me. It is open season on black men because they are seen as objects of fear. We need to address that.

KELLY: Rocco, go ahead. Rocco, let him respond.

ROCCO LIMITONE, CONSERVATIVE VOTER: What is (inaudible) hearing here tonight, is part of the problem. Here's what needs to happen. Starting from the top down, starting from the president, starting from Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the other so-called leaders, Dr. Dre...

KELLY: Let him finish.

LIMITONE: ...all the professional people and professional black men need to start getting into the communities. Take off the thousand dollar suits. Get on the (inaudible). Get into the community and say, hey, guys, here's what needs to happen. We need to start getting an education. We need to start looking at the books. We need to start educating us.

KELLY: All right. I got a heartbreak in five seconds. We'll be right back.



KELLY: Now, I was just saying to the panel here that one of the frustrations with cable news is we rarely solve anything, but we do get to shine a light. Hopefully we did some of that tonight. with your thoughts. Thank you, panel, and thank you all. Good night.

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