Jeb blasts Trump for not being a serious candidate
On 'Hannity,' presidential candidate talks protecting the homeland, border battle
This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," December 16, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: And welcome to "Hannity."
Tonight, a mistrial in the case of one of the Baltimore cops being tried for the death of Freddie Gray. Now, the trial ended after three days of deliberations by deadlocked jurors.
Here with reaction, Fox News senior correspondent Geraldo Rivera, Fox News political analyst Juan Williams and "The Five" co-host Kimberly Guilfoyle, also an attorney.
Geraldo, you were down there when all this was going on. We see what's been unfolding a little bit today, a little bit of unrest. But my question to you is this -- to me, the system worked. This was very predictable.
GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I think that it is a travesty that this case was ever brought against this officer, a black man, a native of Baltimore! This charge of manslaughter was the product of mob violence! This in the city where the trial never should never have happened. It should have been moved outside of the city. Why? The city government already showed its hand when it gave a $6.4 million civil settlement -- they didn't even have a lawsuit! They just gave, voluntarily gave to the family of Freddie Gray $6.4 million, a man who was arrested at least 18 times!
This was a tragic accidental death. To charge this cop with manslaughter was a travesty, and if it happened outside of Baltimore, he would have been absolutely acquitted. They should not retry him, certainly not on manslaughter.
HANNITY: But it seems like, politically, they'll do the expedient thing and they'll probably do it for political purposes. And by the way, this is only the first guy up. And the hope was that, in fact, he would turn and testify against the other cops. That won't happen.
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think it's going to happen. And what we saw was that the testimony by experts in the case was that, in fact, he may have been more generous and more protective of Freddie Gray than was required, which is a surprise to me in reading about the case, how the experts viewed it because I think this is highly political.
And I think we can see in terms of the unrest even today in Baltimore that people are looking for justice, relief against what they perceive to be excessive use of force by police on a regular basis. But this may not be the case.
HANNITY: But a change in venue made all the sense in the world. Can a cop in Baltimore, in light of everything that's happened, get a fair trial?
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: I mean, when we think about this, this is why we have the jury system because here the jury system worked to correct the social injustice that was at play, the rush to judgment to indict this man before even all the evidence and the reports were back, to make an example, to feed into the hungry mob, to basically satiate their need for what they perceive to be justice. And very sad that this is still happening in this day and age.
And I blame also the prosecutors because they were really more interested in the public discourse and the feeling and mood and the violence that was happening at the time and pushing this forward. I mean, this man could have been convicted, and the evidence doesn't support it. So that's what's so disturbing.
WILLIAMS: By the way, Sean, I think you're wrong about change of venue. I don't see any reason why that case couldn't be held in Baltimore.
RIVERA: Juan! Come on!
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh!
RIVERA: How can you say that when you have...
HANNITY: After all that happened.
RIVERA: ... a city government that voluntarily gave $6.4 million and said to the...
GUILFOYLE: Right.
RIVERA: ... world, We are guilty, punish us...
WILLIAMS: You can say that's political...
RIVERA: That is poison!
WILLIAMS: You can say that's a political move by the politicians, Geraldo, but in terms of the citizens of Baltimore, they have a right to have their officers, their police officers come before a jury in Baltimore and have justice delivered. And the officer has a responsibility and a right to have due process, to have a trial, and that's what happened.
RIVERA: How can you have fairness in a city that has already said this cop is guilty?
WILLIAMS: Because you just...
RIVERA: How can you have fairness?
WILLIAMS: You just saw it!
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: ... in the streets! The homicide rate has skyrocketed!
WILLIAMS: The jury was not a hanging jury, was it.
RIVERA: It was not, thankfully. They had a jury that was sensible enough to...
GUILFOYLE: Right.
WILLIAMS: Well, that's what I'm saying.
RIVERA: ... not make a judgment. But it would have been an outright acquittal anyplace but...
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I don't think so. Don't blame the people of Baltimore.
GUILFOYLE: But the point is, they could still retry this man. They have to make a decision now. and what I'm concerned about is that they're going to try and force this down the throat of some jury because this is what's going on. This is the environment that's very toxic, very volatile.
Why wouldn't you err on the side of caution and good decision-making by doing a change of venue that you know would ensure more fairness...
WILLIAMS: Remember Rodney King?
GUILFOYLE: ... than putting this here in this, like, wild pot?
WILLIAMS: You're from California. You remember Rodney King, when they moved the trial out of LA to Simi Valley, and then you get an all- white jury, a suburban jury with a very different perspective because they're not dealing with the cops on a regular basis...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: You're almost making Geraldo's case, though.
WILLIAMS: Oh, tell me why.
HANNITY: Well, because you're talking about racial politics being in a jury selection.
GUILFOYLE: Right.
WILLIAMS: Yes?
HANNITY: And I'm saying what you need are objective people that are not as emotionally involved.
WILLIAMS: Wait a second. You're saying black people don't convict black people?
HANNITY: No, I'm saying you're saying that...
GUILFOYLE: No!
HANNITY: ... to move it to an all-white jury.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: No, no. I'm saying in the city of Baltimore. But I'm saying...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: You're saying that white people can't give a fair verdict!
WILLIAMS: No, no, no! I said suburban all-white jurisdiction outside of the city of Baltimore.
HANNITY: Does that mean they're objective? Does that mean they're less...
WILLIAMS: No, it means they have a different experience with the police on a daily basis.
GUILFOYLE: You know what? I mean, having tried cases where I, in fact, went ahead and agreed right away, said, Yes, we should do a change of venue -- you don't want a case coming back on appeal. You want to seek justice. It's about doing the right thing by both sides and...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: I want to lean into this a little more, Geraldo. Doesn't it sound like...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: They have a different experience -- doesn't that sound like what Juan's saying is that he would expect that the people of Baltimore would prejudge the police differently?
WILLIAMS: No!
HANNITY: That's what it sounds like to me.
RIVERA: The west side of Baltimore has experienced the worst homicide in over 20 years since the death of Freddie Gray. There is a greedy and opportunistic mob there that has victimized their own friends and neighbors. They've destroyed the elderly care center. They wiped out mom and pop businesses all along that avenue.
GUILFOYLE: That's right.
RIVERA: They have acted in a way that has so frightened the city that the atmosphere in the city was so tense and so shaky that it was unmistakable, Juan, and undeniable that there was a link between what happened to that cop and what the city anticipated would happen in the streets of Baltimore. That's why it should have been moved.
WILLIAMS: But Geraldo -- but Geraldo, we didn't say that these gangsters, these thugs would be the jury. We said the people of Baltimore!
RIVERA: The people of Baltimore -- the people of Maryland -- this is the state versus the officer in this case (INAUDIBLE).
HANNITY: But the question is...
RIVERA: There are plenty of people in other parts of Baltimore and Maryland, where you could have gotten an integrated jury, a diverse jury...
WILLIAMS: That's what they did!
RIVERA: ... as I agree there should be...
WILLIAMS: You did get...
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: We did. But to try it in that town...
GUILFOYLE: He's right.
RIVERA: ... where people were so on tenterhooks -- and even now, we watch out of the corner of our eye -- I saw it with my own eyes -- we watch and see is this going to be used as an excuse to further victimize (INAUDIBLE)
GUILFOYLE: Yes, and will they try and retry him? And you know, well, why wouldn't you just go ahead and say, I'm going to move it, because what if this man was convicted? Guess the first thing that his defense attorney would do, file an appeal and say that he didn't get a fair trial, that there should have been a change of venue because of the volatile bloodlust in the community...
HANNITY: Kimberly, don't you...
GUILFOYLE: ... to find this -- a verdict...
HANNITY: ... think they also overcharged him? I mean, in this particular case...
GUILFOYLE: Of course. Of course they did!
HANNITY: They so overcharged him.
GUILFOYLE: They threw everything at him. They hoped something would stick. I mean, how disgusting! The DA's job is to seek justice. We have one of the most powerful jobs in the world, where you determine, essentially, the fate of a human being, deciding the value of a case and the nature of the charges. You can put someone away for life for something that is totally disproportionate for the crime that they did! And that's what you have to look at.
HANNITY: You see, when Geraldo is on my side and Kimberly's on my side, Juan, that means that you really need to take a sincere...
RIVERA: You know what?
HANNITY: ... objective, discerning look at your side and realize...
WILLIAMS: No, here's what I think.
HANNITY: What?
WILLIAMS: I think that sometimes people don't realize that if you're poor and you're black in this country, your experience with police is very different...
HANNITY: But Juan, Juan...
WILLIAMS: ... than if you're white.
HANNITY: Do you think any one of us here on this panel wants anything but a fair trial? Do you think anyone on this panel -- Geraldo raising the good point...
WILLIAMS: No, I think...
HANNITY: ... the money that was paid out...
WILLIAMS: Do you want me to answer the question? I think you want the policeman acquitted.
HANNITY: I don't -- I don't see any...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: I don't see the evidence!
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: May I say what? May I say what? You tell me -- you saw that videotape of Freddie Gray. You saw the bus, the drag (ph), the (INAUDIBLE)
GUILFOYLE: Right.
RIVERA: At what point in that event was he injured? At what point? And by whom.
WILLIAMS: Well, I can't tell. I can't...
HANNITY: You can't tell! Isn't that exactly what we're talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: ... convict a specific cop beyond a reasonable doubt for inflicting a specific injury!
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Wait, wait! Let me just tell you, because it would be negligence because he is under the control, the custody of...
HANNITY: You sound like Judge Wapner...
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: They went for manslaughter, and here's the theory -- callous disregard...
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: ... because he didn't fasten the seatbelt...
(CROSSTALK)
RIVERA: ... prisoner in the paddy wagon. How many cops fasten the seatbelts? How many...
WILLIAMS: I don't know.
RIVERA: This was a cop who should have gotten some kind of discipline...
HANNITY:
RIVERA: ... all right, You have to work overtime. You're punished. You did -- it's not a crime!
WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, so you...
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: You're going to judge whether or not it's a crime. Why not let the people of Baltimore...
HANNITY: All right, guys, I got to roll.
WILLIAMS: ... judge it?
GUILFOYLE: It's like a department infraction...
HANNITY: We're going to...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: We're going to continue to monitor the events going on in Baltimore. Thank you all. We'll have more on the mistrial declared for one of the officers in the Freddie Gray case.
But first tonight...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald, you know, is great at the one-liners, but he's a chaos candidate, and he'd be a chaos president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: One of the most talked-about exchanges from last night's Republican debate, former Florida governor Jeb Bush gives us his take on that.
And then later, the one and only Mark Steyn -- he's here to weigh in on the showdown in Vegas.
Also, Senator Ted Cruz will join us tonight to talk about his debate performance. That's all coming up tonight on this busy news night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." The Republican showdown in Vegas had plenty of memorable and exciting moments, but some of the most talked about exchanges were between Republican rivals Donald Trump and Jeb Bush. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Donald, you know, is great at the one-liners, but he's a chaos candidate.
Donald, you're not going to be able to insult your way to the presidency. That's not going to happen.
TRUMP: Jeb said when they come across the southern border, they come as an act of love.
Jeb said when they come across the southern border, they come as an act of love.
BUSH: You said in September 30th that ISIS was not a -- not a factor...
TRUMP: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?
BUSH: I'm talking right now. I'm talking.
TRUMP: You can go back. You're not talking. You interrupted me.
BUSH: September 30th, you said it.
TRUMP: Are you going to apologize, Jeb? No.
BUSH: Look, the simple fact is, if you think this is tough and you're not being treated fairly...
TRUMP: This isn't tough...
(CROSSTALK)
BUSH: ...imagine what it's going to be like dealing with Putin...
TRUMP: I wish it was always...
BUSH: ... or dealing with President Xi.
TRUMP: ... this easy as you, Jeb!
BUSH: Or dealing with the Islamic terrorism that exists.
TRUMP: Oh, yes!
BUSH: This is a tough business...
TRUMP: Oh, I know.
BUSH: ... to run for president.
TRUMP: You're a tough guy, Jeb. I know.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: And it's -- and we need to have a leader that is...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You're tough.
BUSH: You're never going to be president of the United States...
TRUMP: You're really tough, Jeb!
BUSH: ... by insulting your way to the presidency.
TRUMP: Well, let's see. I'm at 42, and you're at 3!
BUSH: Doesn't matter.
TRUMP: So, so far, I'm doing better!
BUSH: Doesn't matter.
TRUMP: So far, I'm doing better. You know, you started off over here, Jeb. You're moving over further and further. Pretty soon you're going to be off the end!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: All right, here now with reaction, 2016 Republican presidential candidate, former Florida governor Jeb Bush. All right, you're smiling so I guess that means you had a good time at the debate. But what do you...
BUSH: Yes, I did.
HANNITY: As you sure (ph) it back and as you see it, do you think differently?
BUSH: No. look, I think the outpouring of support that we've gotten for someone taking on Donald Trump -- look, the guy's a gifted politician, but he's not a serious candidate. The substance of the debate last night was phenomenal, substantive questions with serious answers across the board.
Donald Trump doesn't talk about anything serious. The threat of ISIS, what was his response? Well, you know, he has to admit that two months ago, he was saying ISIS isn't -- you know, we shouldn't even deal with them. Now he's talking about bombing the you know what out of them.
There's no plan behind that. And we need someone that has serious detailed plans, a serious leader to deal with the great threat of our time.
HANNITY: I'm not going to get into the middle of it. I thought you guys had -- both had your exchange last night. I'm going to leave it to the two of you.
Here's one thing -- somebody wrote me today and said, Why didn't Jeb Bush do that in the first debate? Do you think maybe -- in other words, that you showed more fire, a willingness to fight. Do you think waiting to the fifth debate to really engage was a mistake?
BUSH: Look, it was a -- the opportunity was here because we have grave threats to our national security. As I said, Donald Trump is a capable guy, he's a smart guy, but he doesn't have any ideas about how to keep America safe. The idea that you would ban all Muslims makes it impossible to build the kind of coalition necessary to destroy ISIS, for example.
Now, that's just one of many points that I think was appropriate to bring up. This is about policy. These are about ideas that matter. And I think I have the skills, the temperament and the ideas to keep us safe as a country...
HANNITY: You know...
BUSH: ... and people right now are scared about this.
HANNITY: You know, one of the things I wanted to ask you -- and this is a really important question and the president taking in Syrian refugees is a really important question in light of the fact that there were new developments that there might have been other refugees involved in the Paris attacks.
And we learned a couple of things this week, that ISIS, in fact, can make passports and that they have a plan to infiltrate the refugee population.
So my concern is -- and I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea. I would say things differently than, say, you or Donald Trump. And this way, General John Allen, the president's envoy to defeat ISIS, Mike McCaul, chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, James Clapper, national head of intelligence, James Comey, his assistant FBI director, Steinbeck (ph) -- they all say we can't vet these guys, and they're all suggesting that ISIS will infiltrate. Maybe -- is it a good idea to put a pause on all immigration until...
BUSH: Absolutely.
HANNITY: ... we can vet them? So you agree with the pause until we can get it right.
BUSH: Well, I agree with the pause for Syrian refugees. Absolutely, we should not be allowing people in when you have all of the people you mentioned being incapable of saying that we have a vetting process in place that would keep us safe.
HANNITY: Yes.
BUSH: I mean, that is -- that is enough to put a pause for as long as it takes to get that right. We also need to recognize that the visa waiver program for Europeans coming to our country in an easy fashion needs to be looked at. And the Congress, I think, has a duty to go beyond talking about this to actually pass legislation that creates changes in our policies, recognizing the threat that we're facing right now.
HANNITY: You know, but I guess also when you compare this to our open borders, I understand that there's a variety of opinions about what we should do with the 11 million people here, but to me, that's secondary because we still have open borders. We still have -- I was talking to a border security guy I know. I've been down to the border, Governor, 12 times.
BUSH: Yes.
HANNITY: And he told me Syrians are coming in with Syrian passports on our southern border! In Texas alone, when I went down with Governor Perry, between the years 2008 and 2014, 611,000 crimes were committed against Texans by illegal immigrants! There seems to be no urgency to get that wall up to protect the American people. How important is that to you if you become president?
BUSH: It is important, very important. And last night, I spoke about this. The president has the money. The Congress has appropriated the money. We need more border patrol agents. We need to use drone technology. We need to build the wall that has been designed. We need to get on with it. We need to have an e-verify system. We need to have an exit visa system that is -- that is -- that deals with the fact that 40 percent of people come legally and just stay.
I mean, this is a great challenge. It's not the most complicated thing our country has faced, but we're not serious in this administration to create border security. And everything else can't be done without it.
HANNITY: Last question. I was watching last night. Politics, I'm sure you agree, is a blood sport. Are you having fun? Do you enjoy this? Is this something that you like to do every day when you get up?
BUSH: Yes. It's a -- I had a blast last night. And each and every day, talking to people and voters -- I'm going to be in New Hampshire Saturday doing five town hall meetings. I love it. And I'm excited about the progress we're making.
HANNITY: All right, Governor, thanks, as always, for being with us. Appreciate it.
BUSH: Sean, thank you.
HANNITY: And coming up, Mark Steyn weighs in on some of the most talked-about moments from last night's debate.
Later, we'll check in with Texas senator Ted Cruz. We'll get his reaction to the debate last night.
Also, Bo Dietl, Eric Guster here with reaction to the mistrial being declared for one of the cops in the Freddie Gray case.
That and more on this busy news night tonight on "Hannity."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity." Joining us now with more reaction on last night's GOP debate, columnist Mark Steyn. By the way, he has a new musical album -- I can't believe I'm saying this again -- "Feline Groovy: Songs for Swinging Cats." Do you sing on this?
MARK STEYN, "A DISGRACE TO THE PROFESSION" AUTHOR: Oh, yes, you'll love it. If you don't buy my cat album, the terrorists will have won, Sean.
(LAUGHTER)
HANNITY: I'm going to buy it just because you're a friend and I want to support the cause. All right, so...
STEYN: OK.
HANNITY: ... let's start -- we just had Jeb Bush on. Big exchange between him and Trump. How do you feel it came out?
STEYN: Yes, I think if he'd have done this in the first debate, it would have been effective. I think, in that sense it, was left too late, and he should have tried it, you know, six months ago.
The problem now is that Jeb Bush has burned through an awful lot of that $100 million warchest, and it's hard to argue with Trump's point that he's at 41 and Jeb is at 3 percent in the polls. I mean, basically, you know, Jeb Bush is Jim Gilmore with $100 million. And that's what Trump has done to him. So he left it too late to push back, I think.
HANNITY: You know, and I also look at Donald Trump this way -- being so far ahead and for so long, so consistently, to me, I think he looks at these debates as no harm, no foul. As long as he doesn't make a big mistake, he's perfectly comfortable. He can get all the media attention he wants, any other time he wants. He seems comfortable getting a few lines in and letting everyone else go at it, and it seems to work.
BUSH: Yes, because he doesn't need the debates. If you're a strong candidate, you don't need these debates. If you're a weak candidate, as six-and-a-half of the guys on that stage were, then you do need a strong performance.
But that said, I thought Trump had one very good moment when he said - - when he pushed back and he said, So they're allowed to kill us, but we're not allowed to kill them. And the audience began to sort of boo him, and he took on the audience. He actually said, Really? And he turned to them and he looked at them, and he put down the audience, which in these Republican events, is mainly full of, you know, assistant deputy county chairmen of various Republican Party (INAUDIBLE) caucuses (ph).
HANNITY: I agree. I thought that was a powerful moment. And it wouldn't likely happen -- no -- I can't imagine any of the other candidates doing that, which again goes to the uniqueness of Donald Trump, right?
STEYN: No. Absolutely. And I think we shouldn't forget that the conversation that they were having last night is a conversation that wouldn't be taking place without Trump. You know, until Donald Trump came along, immigration in campaigns was -- has been generally talked about from the point of view of the illegal immigrants. So we're talking about, Oh, well, you know, these are hard-working people, and if they haven't committed any crimes, or certainly no more than three or four misdemeanors and maybe a couple of felonies, then we should have a pathway to citizenship.
And we'd be arguing -- you know, it would be Rubio calling for a pathway to citizenship over 18 months and Bush arguing for a pathway to citizenship in 6 months. And that's where the conversation would be had Trump not come along, and for the first time, immigration is being discussed in terms of what it offers to the people who are already here!
HANNITY: Yes. I...
STEYN: And that's something -- that's a change Trump made.
HANNITY: I did think that conservatism won on that stage last night because all of those candidates are selling themselves as a conservative. Now, the exchange -- Ted Cruz now has moved up solidly now into second place. There were a couple of exchanges he had with Marco Rubio.
But I thought one great moment for Cruz was when he said, yes -- when they kept pushing him, You mean you're going to carpet bomb a city and make the sand glow and kill the babies and the children, and he said, No, I'm going to carpet bomb ISIS. And if you join them, it's your death warrant. I thought that was a good line.
STEYN: Right.
HANNITY: How do you think that went and the exchanges with Rubio over metadata, surveillance and immigration went?
STEYN: Well, I think Cruz has it slightly easier here because I think, you know, Cruz's weakness, supposedly, is on these national security, on the big security state. Rubio's weakness is on immigration.
But the party has a genuine difference of opinion on the security versus liberty issue, and where you -- at what point -- what is the sweet spot on that continuum? So in a sense, Cruz -- there's a constituency for Cruz. Rubio's weakness, the immigration and the amnesty, is far more disqualifying.
But I would say this. I think Cruz had a good night last night, apart from anything else, just because Ben Carson need to perform well, and he didn't. He performed, I thought, rather eccentrically, starting from that sort of minute of silence he introduced in the middle of his opening statement.
And I think from that point of view, Carson will not arrest his decline, and the main beneficiary of his decline in Iowa has been Ted Cruz. So I thought in that sense, Carson helped Cruz last night.
HANNITY: Does Marco -- he cannot seem to escape his support for the comprehensive immigration bill. Do you see any way that he can overcome that with a conservative base?
STEYN: Yes, I think he certainly could, but he's not there yet. I mean, for example, he was talking last night about how he doesn't want to let any Syrian refugees in because 9,999 of them might be fine, upstanding fellows, but if the 10,000th is building a pipe bomb in his garage, that's a risk we can't afford to take.
And that sounds tough, but it's not where the base is. The base has got kind of far more basic problems with mass immigration at a time when the American middle class is shrinking and social mobility is basically declining. And so he's not -- the terrorism thing is not going to get him off the immigration hook. He's got to go beyond that.
HANNITY: All right, let's talk about this battle between the establishment and the more conservative wing of the Republican Party because, look, the insurgency is real. Outsiders -- it's the outsider insurgency year.
Conventional wisdom from the establishment is, Oh, you've got to -- you got to get somebody who's electable, like Bob Dole or John McCain, establishment candidates. And they tell conservatives in those moments they've got to suck it up and they've got to be team players.
Now it appears that the establishment will try to undermine any insurgency candidate, be it Donald Trump or Ted Cruz or if it was Ben Carson. So my question is, you know, what do you foresee when one of these insurgents actually wins? What happens?
MARK STEYN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I think it's going to be -- it could look very difficult for the establishment by about midnight on the night of the New Hampshire primary because your top two candidates who may have a victory apiece under their belts by then will be Trump and Cruz. And at that point the Republican Party establishment will have lost control of the party. And I think there's no doubt -- there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that even if they were capable of coming up with an attack ad that could destroy either of these candidates --
HANNITY: They would.
STEYN: -- the idea that these people would then willingly migrate to whatever establishment figure is put up in their place, I don't think that's going to happen. I think with Trump supporters a significant proportion of them would just sit on their hands if he were to be taken out in some way. So the establishment has lost control of this thing.
HANNITY: Well said. Mark Steyn, good to see you. Congratulations on the new cd. I'll be getting a copy, I promise, under my Christmas tree.
STEYN: Yes, you'll be playing it all Christmas long, Sean.
HANNITY: I promise.
And coming up Bo Dietl, Eric Guster, they will weigh in on the judge declaring a mistrial for one of the cops in the Freddie Gray case earlier today.
And then later Senator Ted Cruz will react to his debate performance. That and more tonight as HANNITY continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LELAND VITTERT, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: This is a Fox News alert. Good evening. I'm Leland Vittert in Baltimore. A hung jury tonight in the Freddie Gray trial. The judge declared a mistrial after jurors failed to release a decision on charges against Baltimore Police officer William Porter. He faced up to 25 years in jail had they convicted him on all four counts.
Gray died of a massive spinal cord injury suffered is while in police custody. The jury of seven blacks and five whites deliberated for about 16 hours before telling the judge they couldn't reach a unanimous verdict on anything. Porter is at home tonight free tonight on bail.
Within minutes small protests broke out in front of the courthouse. The police arrested two. The demonstrators seemed unorganized at best. Police who allowed rioters to run wild back in April stepped in. Even a small crowd marching through empty streets were told to get on the sidewalk. Tonight the city is largely quiet as officer porter awaiting to hear when he'll face a jury again.
I'm Leland Vittert in Baltimore. Now back to "Hannity."
HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." And here with more reaction to the mistrial in the case against one of the Baltimore cops being tried in the death of Freddie Gray, we have trial attorney, political commentator Eric Guster, former NYPD detective Bo Dietl. We've got to go back. We've watched the reaction of people. First, I don't think people understand what a mistrial is. It's likely that this is going to be retried. I think they should have had a change of venue, number one. And number two, I don't see the evidence based on the charges they brought up here, manslaughter, second degree assault, reckless endangerment. There's no evidence to prove that cop did that.
ERIC GUSTER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: There was evidence, but not to the level of beyond a reasonable doubt. There was plenty of evidence. And one of the problems the prosecution had in this case was that they were severed, meaning that the different police officers had their own separate trials. If they were all pulled in together, they would have gotten two or three convictions.
HANNITY: From what I understand, didn't the prosecutor want that originally?
GUSTER: It was debating if they wanted to have it separate or not, but the judge had issued to have them separate.
BO DIETL, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: These charges, and all the time that you charge someone, you can overcharge them because you cannot convict somebody. It's beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the way our system is. And that means if the defense attorney throws enough doubt in there that that cop that was driving that van knew that he was going to fall against the back of the wall and was going to break his neck. And it's kind of impossible to find someone guilty of that knowing they were going to do that.
HANNITY: Look at his arrest record. Remember this was 8:30 in the morning. He runs from cops probably because of the past arrest record this guys, and maybe the likelihood that he's up to no good at this time in the morning.
And here's the deal. OK, they didn't put the seat belt on the guy. I would say that. But they don't know which cop. In this particular case, the cop said it was not his duty to put the seat belt in this case.
GUSTER: And that's one of the problems. Now, let's go back to the arrest record. His arrest record does not matter.
BAIER: It doesn't matter legally in the court, but it matters in reality.
GUSTER: You say, oh, he's been arrested a 100 times or 20 times, whatever it is. Oh, he's dead, so that's OK?
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Nobody's saying that.
GUSTER: You even implied that, Sean.
HANNITY: No, I'm saying that he's obviously not a pillar of the community. And the problem is that the cops knew him, and he ran from the cops.
GUSTER: So what? He's still a man who deserves a fair trial.
HANNITY: He's not on trial. The cops are on trial.
DIETL: I have to agree with you on one thing. One thing has nothing to do with the other one. The idea that I have a problem with is so many conflicting statements about the van stopping four, five times, he was still alive. If you have a fractured vertebrae and you fracture your spine, you're not going to be able to talk, you're going to be paralyzed. My whole thing on this thing is a terrible accident that occurred. I don't think there was any intention to kill that man in that trial.
HANNITY: I agree with you.
GUSTER: There was intent to hurt him.
DIETL: Look at the video, Eric.
GUSTER: They did a -- I believe that they intended to teach him a lesson by doing a rough ride.
GUSTER: HANNITY: That's a theory.
DIETL: You look at the video Eric.
(CROSSTALK)
GUSTER: I believe that they intended to teach him a lesson by doing a rough ride. That is why --
HANNITY: The only problem is that's a theory. That's a hypothesis on you part, you don't' know, there's no evidence of that.
GUSTER: That's what trials are all about, it's about a hypothesis.
HANNITY: But you need to prove this cop is guilty, and there's no evidence here.
GUSTER: I have said the entire time I do not think they had --
HANNITY: Then why are you giving us an opinion not based on fact?
GUSTER: No, I'm talking about fact.
DIETL: It is a fact.
GUSTER: Here's in fact. When those officers were taking him over to the van, we all saw the video on the cell phone camera. His feet were dragging like he had no motion in his feet. My problem is possibly did he hurt himself when he was running and fall and those injuries were consistent of one more shot in that van, the spinal cord?
HANNITY: I think we can't get an honest answer because it is so highly politically, emotionally charged in the light of what happened, and I think that resulted in overcharging, it resulted in it becoming political. That's why I would have supported a change of venue.
DIETL: The prosecutor and the mayor were no pillars on the community.
HANNITY: I agree with that.
GUSTER: Yes, they are.
(CROSSTALK)
DIETL: They should video tape when they demonstrate. Start picking out the ones that were loot and burning the store. Lock them up --
GUSTER: You're trying to talk about looting. A man is dead.
DIETL: We don't burn houses down.
GUSTER: We don't. But right now we're talking about Freddie Gray's their, and ehere was not a conviction in Freddie Gray's trial.
(CROSSTALK)
BAIER: The problem when you have prosecutors and politicians involved and they overcharge and there's not evidence to prove it, and then the verdict doesn't come out the way the public seems to want it, they have set the public up with an expectation of a specific result, and you don't get it. And that is irresponsible and reckless on their part.
GUSTER: They did -- well, the prosecutor's job.
HANNITY: They created the situation, guilty, guilty, guilty.
GUSTER: The prosecutor's job, she said she is going to seek justice. That's what she did.
HANNITY: All right, we've got to roll. Thank you, both, appreciate it.
Coming up next, Texas Senator Ted Cruz will react to his debate performance as "Hannity" continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." Last night right after the debate was over we spoke with 2016 Republican presidential candidate Texas Senator Ted Cruz from the spin room in Vegas. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HANNITY: I was very interested also in your answer about, for example, deposing dictators and who were the rebels we often end up supporting they end up being, oftentimes, far worse than the people that we depose. Explain how -- I mean, we're talk about a razor's edge, threading a needle in some of these case, difficult decision or easy decision for you?
SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, sure, these decisions are always difficult. But, you know, you look at how Ronald Reagan approached the cold war. He used as the central unifying approach of his foreign policy defeating Soviet communism. And that meant sometimes that he cooperated with dictators who are unsavory characters, but they were helpful in stopping and defeating Soviet communism.
The problem with our foreign policy with Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and, unfortunately, with too many Washington Republicans is they take their eye off the ball. That they stop focusing on the need to defeat radical Islamic terrorism, whether it's ISIS, whether it's Al Qaeda, whether it's Boko haram, whether it's al Nusra across the board.
And so what we end up doing is toppling governments in the Middle East and enabling the radical Islamic terrorists to take over. Libya, Gadhafi, was a bad man. He'd been active in terrorism decades before, but he'd become a partner with the U.S. government in targeting radical Islamic terrorists, in capturing them, in fighting them, and what Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton did with the support of a lot of Washington Republicans is toppled him after he is helping us fight radical Islamic terrorism. And it gave Libya over to the terrorists. That's worse from America's perspective. We did something very similar in Egypt. And in Syria, what is maddening, Sean, is these same folks, they don't seem to learn from the same mistakes. Assad is a bad man, but if we topple Assad and hand Syria over to ISIS, that is even worse from a U.S. national security perspective.
HANNITY: It's interesting, people forget in World War II we aligned ourselves with Joseph Stalin and the Russians, an enemy, and sometimes it gets very complicated.
It was funny, but you have now established yourself as the second place candidate in this race of 14 candidates. You have been climbing steadily in the polls. As a matter of fact if you look, a number of polls have you leading in the first caucus state of Iowa. Going into the debate there has been back and forth between you and Donald Trump. People were expecting a battle between the two of you. That did not unfold. But a serious significant debate on both metadata and immigration between you and Marco Rubio. explain from your perspective how that went down.
CRUZ: Well, look, I think there are some significant policy differences. So for example, on immigration, we saw a sharp difference between Senator Rubio's support of Barack Obama and Chuck Shumer's amnesty program.
And in particular this is one of the first times we've discovered how the Rubio-Schumer amnesty plan would have endangered our national security because it would have given Barack Obama blanket powers to admit new refugee including Syrian refugees without mandating any background checks at all. And that really would endanger our national security.
I think that difference was shown clearly in the debate. And I'll tell you, Sean, I think the most-important difference of the entire debate was I think the American people are looking for someone who is clear eyed, who has judgment, who has strength, who they can trust to keep this country safe. To be commander in chief, to go after the terrorists, to defeat ISIS, and not to get, not to take their eye off the ball of what is needed to protect the homeland and ensure this nation remains safe.
HANNITY: Senator, we've learned a lot about ISIS in the last weeks. We've learned, for example, that they now have ability to print their own visas and passports. We have learned that they have a plan as confirmed by homeland security committee chairman Mike McCaul to infiltrate the refugee population.
And we also learned that this administration literally wanted to protect the privacy of people coming into this country so they won't look at social media. We didn't bomb oil wells, the life blood of the financial support of ISIS because they didn't want environmental damage. It seems to me, this is so reckless to me. That there is a lack of understanding that this is a war and they have declared war against us, and are trying to kill us. Why doesn't this president get it?
CRUZ: Sean, you're exactly right. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and the entire Democratic Party are completely is out of touch. They, as a matter of policy refuse to say the words "radical Islamic terrorism."
Following San Bernardino, the attorney general, Loretta Lynch, said what she was worried about is rhetoric, anti-Muslim rhetoric, rhetoric against radical Islamic terrorism. How about having the attorney general most worried about protecting the safety and security of our families here at home. And it's this political correctness that causes this administration not to stop the attacks. We should have been able to stop the Boston bombing, we should have been able to stop Fort Hood. But the administration is so politically correct they don't act to stop it. That will end if I am elected president. Our focus will be single-mindedly on defeating radical Islamic terrorism and on keeping this nation safe.
HANNITY: And you made points the Tsarnaev brother, the older brother, Nidal Hasan, now, the San Bernardino terrorist, the woman with a Pakistani passport, we had evidence. It seems to me people should have blood on their hands here. But we only have about 30 seconds.
CRUZ: You're right. Take Nidal Hasan. We knew he was communicating with a radical Islamic cleric, asking about waging jihad against fellow soldiers. The Obama administration did nothing and 14 innocent people were murdered at Fort Hood. We should have prevented it, and political correctness cost lives. That will end if I'm elected.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HANNITY: And coming up, we need your help, tonight's "Question of the Day" straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: Time for our "Question of the Day." So who do you think won last night's big debate? Just go to Facebook.com or Twitter @SeanHannity and let us know what you think.
But that is all the time we have left this evening. Quick programming note, be sure to tune in tomorrow night, 10:00 eastern, as Republican frontrunner Donald Trump will be our guest tomorrow night, 10:00 eastern. Thanks for being with us. See you back here tomorrow night.
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