This is a rush transcript from "Your World With Neil Cavuto," September 17, 2009. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: All right, well, as you know, the president has been saying that savings are going to pay for health care. He said it again today.
Republican Senator Orrin Hatch has seen the numbers, or at least those that he can at this point, and the only way to pay for all of this big spending, he says, at least, is with a big tax hike, something he does not favor.
Senator, how big a tax hike do you think we're looking at?
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: Well, I hope none, because I — I'm not going to support some big tax hike when we have the ability to shape up this — this health care system in our country and make it work.
But, look, you know, like I say, there are 306 million people in this country. At first, they said they were 47 million uninsured. And the president said 30 million in his last State of the Union — or joint session speech.
And, you know, if you deduct the six million who work for companies that provide health care, but they don't buy it, or you take the 11 million who qualify for CHIP or — or Medicaid, but are not enrolled, or you take the nine million who earn over $75,000 a year and can afford it, and you take rest of them who are undocumented workers, you get down to 12 million to 15 million people.
So, we are going to throw the whole system out that works that 85 percent of the people are basically satisfied with in order to take care of 12 million to 15 million people that would take care of if we just got rid of unnecessary defense of medicine.
There's a way of doing it without costing the taxpayers a doggone dime and making the system work more efficiently and better. But all they are talking about now is more government, more taxes, more spending, and I just don't go along with that.
CAVUTO: Your colleague Max Baucus says that is not quite what he is up to. It — there might be some taxes going up and fees going up...
CAVUTO: ... but he is saying that a lot of this, more than half of this, can be done through savings. We had a guest on earlier, Senator, who said much the same, that the savings can be exacted there.
I just have a tough time. And you are closer to the Washington history scene than I ever will be, but I have never seen that happen in Washington. It would be a first if it did.
HATCH: No, it never happened.
If the government tells you it's only going to cost you five bucks, it is going to cost you $10. You know that. And, frankly, that is just dreaming to think that they're not going to spend more than what the CBO says.
Now, keep in mind, when you look at the CBO numbers, they're basically — they don't even start until 2013. Some of the expenses are deferred to 2014. And that is the only reason why this is around $1 trillion. If you really add it up over 10 years, it's at least $1.5 trillion more dollars, maybe as much as $2 trillion. And that is the con game that is going on around here.
Now, look, I — I wanted to help Senator Baucus, but I predicted all of this, you know, before I left the gang of seven, and it became a gang of six. Everybody — everything that I said back before the August recess has now turned out to be true.
And, frankly, when you start talking about employer mandates, you're talking about hurting the lowest-incomes that there are, because the companies are not going to pay extra penalties for them. They will just do without them or they will reduce their pay to pay for it, or they will move overseas. And...
CAVUTO: So, what happens now, Senator? What happens now? Obviously, you were joined in the debate, I guess, whether you cared to or not, when the president praised you in his speech, and you were one — one of the few who could cross the aisle and talk and do deals and bills with the likes of Senator Ted Kennedy and the Kennedy family, of course. This speaks very highly of you, and that it was this — guys like you who are going to bridge this divide.
If I am hearing you correctly, Senator, this is not happening here. What is?
HATCH: Well, it's not — it is not happening.
They say they have got a balanced situation here, a debt-free bill. Yes, they have only counted one year. And, you know, year after year for nine years, we are going to have to have doctor fixes that will cost us. And we will always do it, because we can't let Medicare not pay doctors at least 21 percent next time, and not pay hospitals 30 percent.
So — but guess who picks that up? It is the middle class. You're talking about an individual charge to people. If they earn $66,000 a year, and they don't have a government plan that is set by government, a government health care, they are going to have to pay a $3,800 penalty.
Well, if you add it up — I just added it up — you got have $27 billion in new taxes on employers at a time when the unemployment rate is almost double digits. You have got $20 billion in new taxes on — a new mandate on families making as little as $66,000 a year with that $3,800 penalty.
You have got $300 billion in new excise taxes on everybody from insurance companies to medical device companies to — to a variety of other companies. Guess what all those taxes are going to be passed on to? They're going to be passed on to me and you and every other consumer.
CAVUTO: So — so — but you're outnumbered, Senator. You are your party are outnumbered. And the Democrats — and Max Baucus kind of intimated this yesterday — that the — the numbers and the support will be there in the Senate to do it, and you might even lose a Republican or two in the process.
Do you buy that?
HATCH: I don't — I don't think we will lose anybody.
HATCH: And, frankly, they are having a lot of problems on their own.
And let me tell you something. They can't just go ahead and do this. If you've got — do you realize that it took Ted Kennedy and me two years of hard, slogging work to pass the CHIP bill, which, by anybody's measurement, has turned out to be a marvelous bill?
Now, here we are, trying to pass one-sixth of the American economy in three or four months. And let me tell you, the Democrats know that. And then they want to pass it on a party-line vote by going to reconciliation, 20 hours of debate...
CAVUTO: All right.
HATCH: ... less than a full day of debate, 20 hours of debate...
CAVUTO: So, it's not going to happen, not going to happen.
HATCH: ... and very few amendments?
CAVUTO: All right, Senator.
HATCH: Of course it's not going to happen.
CAVUTO: Very good having you. And I appreciate you updating us.
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