Transcript: Caught in a Lie?

This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," January 16, 2006, that has been edited for clarity.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Just hours after George Smith IV disappeared from his honeymoon cruise, members of the ship's crew tracked down his new wife, Jennifer, and told her that George may have gone overboard. When she got the terrible news another passenger was also in the room with her. He was a young man who had been partying with Jennifer and George the night before.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Did the gentleman, the young man, did he ask questions?

MARIE BREHERET, CRUISE GUEST RELATIONS MANAGER: He only asked the staff captain if there was blood outside, if we found blood outside the ship. The staff captain didn't answer. So, we can assume that Jennifer understood that, yes, there was blood outside.

VAN SUSTEREN: He just out of the blue he's sitting here, Jennifer is sitting there, the staff captain tells Jennifer "Your husband is missing" and out of the blue this man who had been with them the night before said "Was there blood outside the cabin?"

BREHERET: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: And it surprised you?

BREHERET: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Let's bring in our legal panel. Former Assistant D.A. Jim Hammer is live in San Francisco having had a long vacation I might add.

JIM HAMMER, FORMER SAN FRANCISCO ASSISTANT D.A.: Two weeks.

VAN SUSTEREN: Two weeks, right. And here in Washington, criminal defense attorneys Bernie Grimm and Ted Williams.

Bernie, I sort of misstated what Marie said that the witness said. She said, "Was there blood outside the ship?" I then said blood outside the cabin, which is a little different. But was there blood outside the ship does that mean anything to you?

BERNIE GRIMM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean it's critical. This person walks in, this person we don't know and how he's connected to this mess but he said, "I come in because I hear on the loudspeakers they're looking for the Smiths and I know the Smiths."

The captain goes out of his way. He doesn't want to tell Mrs. Smith about the blood but he says, we think it's communicated to Jennifer Hagel Smith, "We think your husband fell overboard."

And then out of the blue this person says, "Was there blood found" if I'm quoting Marie correctly, "found outside the ship?" Now how in the world would he know that and lo and behold he just hit the Powerball number.

There was a lot of blood found outside the ship, not to mention I find it strange that Jennifer Hagel doesn't say anything to him like, "Why in the heck would you ask a question like that?" So, to me it's quite bizarre.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jim?

HAMMER: You know, Bernie's right. Often when you listen to a suspect's statements you'll listen for what they say or what they know. In this case it's frankly bizarre for him to come up with this fact. It really grabbed my attention when he said that.

The question is how did he learn it? Is there some innocent explanation that he heard it somewhere else? But, if not, for him to even ask that kind of fact suggests he was there. If he was there, he knows what happened.

The real key though is to use that with the other possible suspects, Greta, and the FBI could do this and try to get one of them maybe who wasn't fully involved, again if anyone was involved, and get them to give up what happened that night but it's a big mystery right now why he knows that.

VAN SUSTEREN: How he learned it, you know, frankly it was very early on and people weren't talking about it I don't think, so I mean it would be very hard to have sort of learned it ahead of time because it was early in time.

HAMMER: Exactly.

VAN SUSTEREN: But I think, Ted disagrees with all of us.

TED WILLIAMS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, unfortunately I have to disagree. I mean first of all I don't know what, if anything, this guy may have known about the actual blood that was found outside the cabin on that canopy. For him to come in to make that statement quite naturally I think there needs to be further investigation but I don't see it as...

VAN SUSTEREN: You don't see that as bizarre or suspicious that he would even ask it? I mean I might ask.

WILLIAMS: No, I really don't, Greta. I don't see it as suspicious. He was with the guy or we know that he isn't in the room. They know that there's blood that was found on the canopy. How did that blood get there? Maybe he did know. We don't know what context he made that statement in so...

VAN SUSTEREN: Well let me ask you this, Ted. They're making an announcement on the loudspeaker at about that time is George Smith — please report to the purser's office. "Please report to the purser George Smith" and this kid, he's a young man, he shows up.

WILLIAMS: Well, he shows, you know, and again I don't know why he showed up but here it is. You had Jennifer Smith who was alleged to have been with this guy the night before along with other individuals and I would agree with Bernie on that point and that is that maybe she should have spoken up and said something at that stage but again it's just a mystery to me.

VAN SUSTEREN: Bernie, she didn't have much sleep though. She had gotten in about, I mean she had gotten in about 5:00 and she was at the spa at 8:30.

GRIMM: She didn't have much sleep and as all of us went to college corridors aren't that comfortable but she didn't have much sleep but on the other hand she got up to make her massage appointment treatment but I just find it to be almost virtually a tacit admission but maybe she's sitting there in shock in fairness to her saying, "Oh my God what the heck's going on?"

HAMMER: You know, Greta...

VAN SUSTEREN: Yes, Jim.

HAMMER: I'll tell you this it really highlights how crucial it would have been, how important to find out whatever blood was there. You can tell so much from the pattern of blood, whether it came from somebody falling, a fight, a gushing wound. The fact that that was cleaned up and not analyzed apparently...

WILLIAMS: No, no, wait, it was analyzed.

HAMMER: ...by competent police professionals.

WILLIAMS: Jim, you're wrong.

HAMMER: The pattern was, Ted, the pattern...

WILLIAMS: It was analyzed. You know I don't know about the pattern but the Turkish authorities was there.

HAMMER: Well, the pattern is key, Ted, because the pattern will tell you the source of the blood, how it came. You know that from homicide, Ted.

WILLIAMS: And I don't disagree with that but the Turkish authorities were there. The FBI could have been there. Everything has been turned over to the FBI. They are analyzing it. You know, I don't know how this blood got there. Look, we don't know this was not an accident.

HAMMER: I agree.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, let's take a quick break. Gentlemen, please stand by.

Coming up, four young men say they put George Smith to bed just hours before blood was spotted on the ship. Where did they go after they left his cabin and is there an important hole in their story?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: Four young men were partying with George Smith IV the night he disappeared from his honeymoon cruise. They say they put George to bed and left his cabin at about 4:00 in the morning.

Staff captain Birger Fiskum spoke to those men just hours after George was reported missing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know where they went after they put him to bed the four?

BIRGER FISKUM, ROYAL CARIBBEAN STAFF CAPTAIN: Because of the investigation going on I can't really say...

VAN SUSTEREN: OK, you don't have to tell me where they were but do you know where they went?

FISKUM: I know where they went.

VAN SUSTEREN: And are you satisfied that where they said they went they actually went?

FISKUM: If I'm satisfied with?

VAN SUSTEREN: They told you where they went after they put him to bed. You can't tell me where it was but I want to know if what they told you, you believe them?

FISKUM: I can't really say because it's under investigation.

VAN SUSTEREN: Yes, but do you believe them? I'm not asking for the facts. Do you actually believe that you got the straight story?

FISKUM: Well at that time I thought I got the straight story, yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you think today that you got the straight story?

FISKUM: Something might not be correct.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Let's bring back our legal panel. Something might not be correct, Bernie.

GRIMM: Yes, Greta, I mean you're probably going to, you know, ask for your retirement package tomorrow and get back in the courtroom because it was a nice cross-examination. The man was a gentleman but it was very incisive. You said, you juxtaposed. I'm not asking you what the FBI thinks. I'm asking you what you think and he's saying essentially to you, "I got a bad gut reaction about this."

VAN SUSTEREN: He's thinking inconsistent statements.

GRIMM: Right.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jim.

HAMMER: I think first of all, Greta, you missed you true calling as a prosecutor because that was a pretty good cross-examination.

GRIMM: Jim, don't get blasphemous on this show please.

VAN SUSTEREN: Now I will burn in hell.

HAMMER: Innocent people don't have a reason to lie and here if, in fact, and this is a huge if, we haven't seen the statements, if their statements aren't stacking up or different guys are giving different stories there's a reason for it or they have something to hide.

So, again, there is so much to be found in these statements and the fact that they got them early and repeated statements, if even the captain has a problem with it and you revealed it, there's probably a problem in those statements.

VAN SUSTEREN: You know I sure would just like to talk to them and find out. I mean there may be a good explanation.

WILLIAMS: I think we all would like to talk to them but, Greta, we must look at the picture here. These guys had been drinking. They all were drunk as a skunk. They may not have remembered what they did at A, B and C. They may have given inconsistent statements. I think the key here is that if these statements are inconsistent that somebody talked to them like the FBI.

But, Greta, I got to tell you the more and I listened to your interview, I really believe one of the theories that we must look at in this is the chair that was on the outside of the balcony. There could have been a possibility that George Smith got on one of those chairs and all of a sudden flipped over and hit that canopy.

VAN SUSTEREN: You know what, Ted, you're so right and likewise it's equally as reasonable to think that someone who couldn't lift a heavy man like that needed to use some leverage if they were doing it alone. The thing that has caught my attention is that apparently four men went in there with George Smith.

WILLIAMS: Sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: For a total of five. Clete, who is the deputy police chief, who happens to be in the room next door, sees three people leave, which leaves one in the room. If they put George to bed because he was either unconscious or drunk, who's making all that noise in the room? I don't know but I'm suspicious.

WILLIAMS: But there are two things.

VAN SUSTEREN: I'm suspicious.

WILLIAMS: All the noise in the room, when you went in that room and I've seen you in that room there are a few things that could very well have been moved around in that room, the tables and those kind of things. But the thing that bothers me is if he hit that canopy where the blood is found below, how did he get from the canopy down into the water?

VAN SUSTEREN: Oh, that's easy it's concave. The picture probably doesn't do service but it's not completely flat. There's a slight arc to it, I mean he could have rolled that I mean...

WILLIAMS: Sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: That one doesn't bother me. What I don't know is if he fell accidentally or if he fell because it's a crime and I'm certainly suspicious. I don't know but I'm suspicious.

WILLIAMS: That chair could hold the key on the balcony.

HAMMER: If only chairs could testify.

VAN SUSTEREN: If only, right.

GRIMM: Just to go back to Jim's point it doesn't matter if they took samples. What you needed is somebody like Henry Lee in there within a half an hour. A blood transfer expert can tell you if somebody fell. They can tell you probably how far they fell from, whether it was blood that came from his skull.

HAMMER: Exactly.

GRIMM: Whether there was blood matter there, so...

HAMMER: Exactly.

VAN SUSTEREN: Frankly, we don't even know if it's George Smith's blood at this point.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)

GRIMM: The fascinating thing we don't even know if it's George Smith's blood.

WILLIAMS: A lot of people in those cabins over and over when they go out on a cruise ship it may be anybody's blood and I understand that...

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, wait a second. I don't know, there isn't probably a lot of bleeding on the side of a ship coincident with somebody leaving.

(CROSSTALK)

HAMMER: It's a lot of blood, Ted.

VAN SUSTEREN: I mean the blood does seem rather — I mean I'm willing to make the leap of faith that it's George's. I don't know for sure.

WILLIAMS: Well it could very well be but, again, we don't know whether it's an accident and unless they can turn one of these individuals and they tell on each other, we may not ever know.

VAN SUSTEREN: And, Jim, before you go how was your vacation?

HAMMER: It was really good. I missed FOX this time. It wasn't at the hotel but I read your blog and got to keep up with everybody. Thanks for asking.

VAN SUSTEREN: Yes, right, thanks for asking. Well, while we were sitting here all at work I just wanted to rub it in. That's the end of Jim's vacations.

HAMMER: That's it, thanks.

VAN SUSTEREN: Anyway, gentlemen as always, thank you very much.

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