Make or break for Rick Santorum?

Written by Chris Wallace / Published February 05, 2012 / Fox News Sunday

Special Guests: Rick Santorum, Gov. Bob McDonnell, J.C. Watts

The following is a rush transcript of the February 5, 2012 edition of "Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace." This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace.

Mitt Romney takes the Nevada caucus for the second big win of the week.

Where does the Republican race for president go from here? We'll get results and reaction from the Silver State. And we'll talk with former Senator Rick Santorum who is looking to make his move in the next primary states.

Then, is the battle between the two front runners hurting Republican chances in the fall? We'll talk with top supporters of both candidates, Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell who is for Mitt Romney, and former Congressman J.C. Watts who backs Newt Gingrich.

Also, from the White House to women's groups, the politics of health care is a big issue again. We'll ask our Sunday panel how it could swing the general election.

And our power player of the week puts his money where his convictions are when it comes to helping his country.

All right now on FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

And hello again from FOX News in Washington.

Well, after a roller coaster ride in January, the Republican presidential race is starting to settle down. Late Saturday in the Nevada caucuses, Mitt Romney scored a second straight commanding victory, winning 48 percent of the vote.

Back in second place was Gingrich in 23 percent and then Ron Paul at 19 percent and Rick Santorum finished last.

For more results and reactions from the candidates, we turn to FOX News senior national correspondent John Roberts in Las Vegas -- John.

JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Chris.

It's the first back to back wins in this primary contest and while the numbers in Nevada appear to be down from where they were four years ago, it was enough for Mitt Romney to claim a clear victory in the Silver State.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTS (voice-over): In a state where the house always wins, Nevada is clearly Mitt Romney's house.

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, this is not the first time you gave me your vote of confidence, and this time, I got to take it to the White House.

ROBERTS: Whether it was Secret Service detail or two state blowouts in the row, Romney looked and sounded a lot more like the nominee, ignoring his rivals, focusing his fire on the man he hopes to meet in November.

ROMNEY: This president began his presidency by apologizing for America. He should now be apologizing to America.

ROBERTS: For Newt Gingrich, the glory of South Carolina seems a long way away -- two big losses in the row now. Though he is starved for cash, Gingrich insists he's in it until the convention in Tampa.

NEWT GINGRICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our commitment is to seek to find a series of victories by the end of the Texas primary will leave us about a parity with Governor Romney. And from that point forward, to see if we can actually win the nomination.

ROBERTS: Ron Paul, who finished second four years ago, was counting on a first rate ground operation for a repeat. But he fell short, ending up in third, acknowledging Romney looks like he could go all the way.

REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I would say that statistically right now, that may be the case. But every once in a while, he gets in a little trouble, too. So, who knows what's going to happen?

ROBERTS: For Rick Santorum, his worst finish yet. Last place in a state he admittedly spent little time and less money, even losing the conservative vote to Romney.

RICK SANTORUM, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We really didn't make the case to be honest with you. I mean, we weren't out there advertising, driving that message. I mean, it's one thing to give a speech. It's another thing to try to drive and penetrate that message.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTS: Santorum has been trumpeting a new Rasmussen poll that shows him as the only Republican candidate who could beat President Obama in a head to head matchup in November. But if he ever hopes to get there, he's got to win a few states -- Chris.

WALLACE: John Roberts reporting from Las Vegas -- John, thanks for that

Joining us now from Minneapolis is one of the candidates looking to regroup and generate some momentum on Tuesday, former Senator Rick Santorum.

Senator, welcome back to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

SANTORUM: Thank you, Chris. Good to be with you.

WALLACE: First of all, and most importantly -- how is Bella, your precious little 3-year-old who just left the hospital after a bout with pneumonia?

SANTORUM: She's doing just great. I want to thank you and everybody there for praying for her and everybody across this country. She had a very rough time a week ago today. But thanks to the great work from doctors and the hospital, and a lot of prayer, she turned around amazingly quickly. And she is home and healthy and we are very, very pleased. Thank you.

WALLACE: I want ask you about your commitment to this campaign does on a human level, because I've got to think as she was going through this, part of you said, maybe I should get out of this race and focus on my family?

SANTORUM: Well, obviously, any time one of your children are sick -- I mean, you got to get home. And particularly in a case like this where she was seriously ill and required hospitalization, you know, family comes first. And I think where anybody in this race, much less myself.

But, you know, one of the things Karen and I talked about was being parents, and, you know, what your responsibility to be the best dad you can be, best husband you can be -- we really think that this country is in a critical juncture, and that, you know, we feel like that I can bring something to the table that make my children's lives substantially better as being president, even more so than being at home for, you know, these few months, rather than being out campaigning. But it would be better for me to devote that time to create a country which is going to be free and safe and prosperous for them in the future.

WALLACE: All right. Let's talk some practical politics, Senator. You finished third in South Carolina, you finished third in Florida and last night in Nevada as we mentioned, you finished last.

How are you going to turn that around and become more competitive?

SANTORUM: Well, I think you wait for Tuesday. I mean, the first five states were sort of cast in stone. They were the five states. The last time, they are the states that, you know, Governor Mitt Romney and Congressman Paul who ran four years ago had an advantage because they have spent a lot of time and money not just in this year's campaign but for the last four years in working in those states.

Now, we're getting to the states where people don't have the natural advantage, don't have the time commitment, the staff commitment to really build out an organization like they did in these first five. I think we're going to do very well here in Minnesota. I think we're going to do very well in Colorado, and we've got a one-on- one match up against Mitt Romney in Missouri, while there's no delegates, it is a key state, it is a primary. And we think we can do exceptionally well in the state of Missouri.

So, we got three states coming up on Tuesday. I think we're going to show that this race is moving again in a very different direction. WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about that. As you say, Colorado, Minnesota are caucuses. Missouri is a primary, but it's basically a beauty contest. It doesn't choose any delegates.

Honestly, is Tuesday make-or-break for you, sir?

SANTORUM: Oh, no, not at all. I think we're going to show improvement. This race is a long, long way from being over.

We believe that if you look at the national polls, our numbers are moving up continually. As mentioned in your intro, we are the only candidate right now according to at least the Rasmussen poll that beats Barack Obama. Everybody else is behind. In fact, Newt Gingrich is way behind.

I think this race as people start seeing Mitt Romney doing well and Newt Gingrich really not up to the task with the money and the resources and the organization that he had in -- particularly in Florida, they are looking for somebody else who can take on Mitt Romney, more importantly, and this is important, take on Barack Obama. It's not about who can win the primary, who can win the general election.

And we have two candidates candidly that are flawed. If you look at Florida and Nevada, the results were down as far as participation is concerned. I mean, this is not a good sign when the two candidates that everybody is talking is not generating any energy in the Republican primary.

WALLACE: Well, let's talk about your two main rivals, and we got to say -- Ron Paul is in there and he's picking up delegates, too. But in Nevada, you ran a tough ad, not against Romney but against Gingrich. And let's play a clip from that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Rick Santorum for president. He doesn't just talk the conservative game, he lives it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: When you say that you live it -- you live a good conservative game and we see a picture of you and your beautiful family, is that a veiled reference to Newt Gingrich's personal problems?

SANTORUM: Well, I think if you look at the actual ad, the ad before that line talks about four issues, talks about immigration, talks about cap and trade. It talks about health care and it talks about the Wall Street bailouts.

So, it's very much an ad focused on the four issues that are very, very important to this campaign, where the four issues where Governor Romney and Speaker Gingrich simply are -- do not present a very good contrast with President Obama, do not reflect the conservative values that are going to be important for rallying our base and creating excitement across this country.

And on the issue of, you know, living it -- yes, I live it in both my professional and personal life. And that is -- that is a message that I think is important, you know, for a presidential candidate.

WALLACE: And do you think -- well, let me ask you that. Do you think that's a legitimate issue, the question of how you've lived your personal life?

SANTORUM: Well, I think it certainly is something that everybody should consider. I mean, these are -- I said the repeatedly in the debates that the issue of character is an important one. The issue of trustworthiness is important one, and authenticity, whether you've been flip flopping on positions in your career. All of those things are character issues when you're electing a leader are certainly important issues to consider.

WALLACE: You have been very critical of Newt Gingrich, his leadership when he was speaker of the House, and you were in the House with him. Even in some of these debates, you've questioned his stability.

And I want to ask you: do you honestly think that Newt Gingrich is fit to be president of the United States?

SANTORUM: Newt Gingrich would be a much better president than Barack Obama.

SANTORUM: My concern is, with respect to a campaign. And, you know, some of the things that Newt is prone to do, which is to look to government to do a lot more things than you would think to believe when you listen to his rhetoric. A lot of ideas that Newt comes up with, whether it's a moon colony or whether it's, you know, personal accounts with Social Security in the fact of $1.2 trillion deficit, you know, are not connected to fiscal responsibility and limited government, and doing things from the bottom up, from a free market and free enterprise point of view.

I just want a candidate that we can go out there and rely upon to be authentically conservative, to stay disciplined, to stay focused on Barack Obama as the person that we should be highlighting in this race and not make you, the Republican candidate, the central issue in the campaign.

WALLACE: Now, let's talk about Romney. Obviously, we all know that the jobs numbers were pretty good, relatively speaking, on Friday that came out for the last month of January, 8.3 percent unemployment, quarter of a million jobs created. And you have said about Romney that if the economy keeps improving, then his candidacy is in question because he's going to have nothing to offer. What do you mean?

SANTORUM: Well, I mean, he's pretty much a uni-dimensional candidate. I mean, all he talks about is being the CEO, being the CEO, being the businessman. First of all, I'm not too sure that's the greatest qualification for being president of the United States. But if it is, the qualification is that, you know, I'm someone who can run the economy, even though I don't believe the president runs the economy. A president creates an environment, if he can work with Congress and the regulatory atmosphere to improve the atmosphere.

But the president of the United States is a commander-in-chief and president of the United States, you know, executes the laws and tries to motivate the American public to make changes that are necessary. It's not necessarily a CEO type of position.

And secondly, you know, Governor Mitt Romney, even more than Speaker Gingrich, doesn't create the contrast that we need to beat Barack Obama. I mean, we give away the health issue if Mitt Romney is the nominee. We give away cap and trade. We give away the Wall Street bailouts.

All of these government interventions in the private sector when you would think that a CEO businessman would oppose the government intervention at the obtrusive level that they are. And he sided with big government, not business. And again, he undermines his own credibility.

WALLACE: I have a couple of more issues I want to get into with you. A couple of health issues gone into the news this week and became political. First of all, the Susan G. Komen Race for the Cure Foundation first cut off funding for Planned Parenthood, which is the nation's biggest abortion provider, and then reversed that decision.

Your reaction, sir?

SANTORUM: Well, look, they are a private organization. They can fund whatever kind of effort they want. I have taken a position as a presidential candidate, as someone in Congress, that, you know, Planned Parenthood funds and does abortions, the leading abortion provider in the nation. And that we don't -- I don't believe federal funds should go there. They are a private organization. They should stand up and support whatever they want.

I don't believe that breast cancer research is advanced by funding an organization that does abortions, whether you've seen ties to cancer and abortion. So, I don't think it's a particularly healthy way of contributing money to further the cause of breast cancer. But that's what a private organization like Susan G. Komen to make that decision.

WALLACE: The Obama administration is coming under fire for a new decision that Catholic institutes, not churches, but charities, hospitals, schools, are going to have to offer health insurance that includes contraception. Now, the administration defends this and saying the vast majority of women, even Catholic women, use birth control. Your response?

SANTORUM: The Catholic Church specifically teaches that birth control pills, as well the morning-after pill which is not just a birth control pill but what clearly causes abortions, as well as sterilization, which is something that the church specifically teaches against. Here you have a situation where you have this tricky play, the government says that they can give you right. They'll give you the right to health care. Be careful, because then they can tell you how to exercise that right against your First Amendment rights, against you ability to practice your faith.

And even worse, we saw in the case of the Army, where the head of the chaplain of the Army wanted to issue a letter that was issued last week and all the other Catholic churches in this country, and the Army and Obama administration said they couldn't even issue a letter to complain about the Obama administration's plan on this policy.

So, now, not only violating the freedom of religion, now the freedom of speech, this is the problem when government tells you that they can give you things. They can take it away. But even worse, they can tell you how they're going to exercise this new right that they've given you, consistent with their values instead of the values guaranteed in our Constitution.

WALLACE: Senator Santorum, we want to thank you so much for coming in today and talking with us. Safe travels. We'll see how you do Tuesday. And we'll see you down on the campaign trail, sir.

SANTORUM: Thank you very much, Chris

WALLACE: Up next, we'll debate where the Republican race for president stands now when we're joined by the top supporters of the two frontrunners.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: To help us get a better read on where the GOP race goes from here, we are joined by supporters of the two leading candidates, Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell, a top supporter of Mitt Romney, joins us from Richmond.

GOV. BOB MCDONNELL, R-VA.: Hi, Chris.

WALLACE: And here in the studio is former Congressman J.C. Watts, who backs Newt Gingrich.

Congressman Watts, your guy Newt Gingrich suffered a second straight lopsided defeat last night in Nevada. The entire month of February looks like it's going to be tough for him. What is his strategy, hold on until Super Tuesday?

FORMER REP. J.C. WATTS: I spent sometime over the last two days kind of organizing, took three to four days to organize for the next three or four months. I think Super Tuesday is obviously going to be pretty critical. I was in Minnesota last week, spent some there. We feel pretty good about our chances there.

We felt like Nevada was going to be tough. Colorado is probably going to be tough. But we think we are competitive in Minnesota and Arizona and then spring board us to Super Tuesday, and we expect the results to be much better.

WALLACE: Governor McDonnell, half of the delegates -- half of the delegates won't be awarded total, and so, therefore, no one is going to get a majority that they need to get nominated until late April at the earliest. Don't the GOP rules insure that this race is going to go into May or June?

MCDONNELL: Well, it depends on who wins these upcoming races. There are 17 primaries and caucuses over the next 30 days. And if you look at Florida and now in Nevada back to back here with double digit wins by Mitt Romney, Chris, he won every demographic group -- young, old, evangelical, Tea Party, mainstream Republican, you name. Mitt Romney is appealing now to a broader sector of Republican voters.

So, I think for these next 17 races in 30 days, he's going to show that he is result-oriented, can-do conservative, consistent conservative that can win across the board and win in November.

WALLACE: Congressman, Newt Gingrich keeps escalating his rhetoric and his attacks against Mitt Romney.

WALLACE: And let's put some of these up on the screen. He has been calling Governor Romney a pro-abortion, pro-gun control, pro-tax increase liberal. Last week, he started calling him Obama-light and little food stamp as opposed to Obama who is big food stamp.

Isn't that over the top?

WATTS: Well, you know, George Soros, who's pretty famous liberal supporter in the country says there isn't any difference between -- or there's not much difference between President Obama and Governor Romney.

And at the same time, Chris, I have encouraged people to take a look at where the candidates stood on issues when they had a vote or when they influenced public policy.

Speaker Gingrich was balancing the budget, giving tax relief, paying down a public debt and reform entitlement programs, where Governor Romney was supporting the very things that you just mentioned. You know, gun control. He's been on record supporting that. He's been on record supporting abortion. He's been on record supporting all the things that Speaker Gingrich has accused him of.

So, I think that's a legitimate charge.

WALLACE: Let me bring Governor McDonnell into that.

How do you respond, sir?

MCDONNELL: Well, look at this record as governor of Massachusetts. He governed as pro-life governor in blue state. He cut taxes 19 times, and he balanced a budget without raising taxes, eliminating a $3 billion deficit. He said for traditional marriage. I think that he is a consistent conservative.

You know, Speaker Gingrich has been cozying up with Nancy Pelosi on global warming and called Paul Ryan's budget right wing social engineering. And I think he's got some challenges for conservatives, too.

But the point is, Chris, in Nevada and Florida, again, he wins evangelicals, he wins Tea Party conservatives. And I think despite the speaker's rhetoric, he is appealing to a very broad section of our conservative base.

WALLACE: Well, let me just interrupt for one second and I'd give you a chance to respond in a second. I think you would agree, Governor, that Mitt Romney has made a series of gaffes, as recently as this week and going back over previous months on the campaign trail, especially on the issue of whether or not he is in touch with most Americans.

Let's take a look at some of those.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

ROMNEY: I'm not concerned about the very poor.

I get speaker's fees from time to time, not very much.

I like being able to fire people who provide services to me.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

WALLACE: Governor McDonnell, won't Democrats hammer Mitt Romney over those kinds of statements?

MCDONNELL: You know, Chris, I've been in office 21 years. I have made my share, too. I beat J.C. probably has as well.

Listen, he apologized for that comment, said he didn't phrase it as well. He was talking about what programs he'll have to lift up the middle class. I think it was taken out of context.

But from time, you know, every politician makes and says things that they wish can say a little bit differently. President Obama is the guy that said, accused people of clinging to their guns and religion. So, listen, I think there'll be plenty of things to talk about going to November.

But the point is, who can win and overwhelmingly, Chris, people in the Republican base are voting for Mitt Romney because they think he can beat Obama in November. And I do, too.

WALLACE: Well, let me bring you in. And let me ask you specifically, because there was an interesting development in the exit polls or the entrance polls actually before people went in to these caucuses. Not only did Romney win among the groups he'd been winning before. But he actually beat Gingrich among strong Tea Party supporters and people who identified themselves as very conservative.

WATTS: Chris, I am shocked that any candidate running for president would say I am not concerned about the poor. That I think gives us a good indication.

WALLACE: Well, he did say they have the safety net.

WATTS: OK. But let's -- to say that we took it out of context, let's take it in context. To say they have a safety net. That's literally saying I define compassion by how many people we can have on food stamps, AFDC and in public housing. Why can't we define compassion by how few people are on food stamps and AFDC and in public housing? Because we helped them climb the ladder of economic opportunity.

He literally said I'm going to shove them off to the side because they have their safety net.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: Well, that's a safety net and --

WALLACE: Let me bring in Governor McDonnell because I will say, there are a lot of conservatives who say that Governor Romney didn't seem to be in touch with conservative thinking, which is that good economic programs, lower taxes, less regulation, the best social program for the poor is a job in a strong economy.

MCDONNELL: I think Governor Romney is the best candidate to talk about the American dream, Chris, because he's lived. He's not apologizing. He is a great defender of free enterprise system and he looks -- he wants everybody to have the same opportunity for success that he had.

And I said this: actions speak louder than words. Look at -- he disclosed his tax returns. He's given 16 percent of his income to charity. To take care of the poor and other missions for charity.

So, I think his personal testimony and I know him well. He cares about people of all income strata. He wants everybody to have access to the American Dream. That's Mitt Romney.

WALLACE: Governor, let's turn this around. Your guy, Mitt Romney, has also been going after Newt Gingrich. Let's put up some of what he's been saying. He says Gingrich is a failed leader who resigned in disgrace and is now an influence peddler.

Is that over the top?

MCDONNELL: Well, I think it's well-known that Speaker Gingrich did leave his office back in the '90s, and -- but I think what's important now that Mitt Romney is saying -- look both candidates are tough. This is a contact sport. They're both saying things that bring out their best and expose their opponent's weaknesses.

But the bottom line is, Chris, what our voters are responding to is Mitt Romney's message in every demographic sector within the Republican base, and they believe that he can beat Barack Obama.

And that's what the rest of this race is about. It's about leadership. It's about spending. It's about jobs. And they're buying what Mitt Romney is talking about.

WALLACE: Let me bring Congressman Watts in.

Your response to the Romney attacks against Gingrich.

WATTS: Well, they said he resigned in disgrace. You know, Chris, I was there. He paid a $300,000 reimbursement fee to the ethics committee for having to investigate one charge out of the 84 that he filed bad information on. He reimbursed them. It wasn't a fine. He didn't resign out of the disgrace.

And, you know, talking about --

WALLACE: He was forced out, though, in '98.

WATTS: No, he could have run for speaker.

WALLACE: He was told by his own party that he didn't have the votes.

WATTS: Well, they're saying he doesn't have the votes now to win the nomination. But you got to take the argument to the people. You don't win -- you know, you don't win the nomination by making argument in Washington.

You win the argument by making argument in South Carolina and Oklahoma and Texas and so forth and so on. And concerning the demographic of the votes that Mitt Romney gathered last night, you know, South Carolina, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, the further Midwest and South you go, I think the tougher it gets for someone that had been on record being pro-gun, pro-same sex marriage, pro-abortion, raising taxes, raising foes. I think that sale gets a little tougher.

Now, at the end of the day, they're going to have to make the argument to the voters. But I think the speaker, he stands a good chance, I think, the further this thing will go.

WALLACE: Finally, and we've only got a couple of minutes left, Governor McDonnell, your name has been very prominently mentioned as a possible running mate for Mitt Romney should Romney win the nomination. And unlike a number of the possible candidates to be vice president, you aren't being coy about it. You say you'd be interested.

MCDONNELL: Well -- Chris, what I said was I think anybody who got a call from their nominee and said, hey, you can help the country, you can help our ticket, would you join? Of course, you'd consider that.

But, listen, I got the best jobs in the world being governor of Virginia, got big things during this session. And I'll let everybody else talk about that and we'll what happens.

WALLACE: Let me just ask you briefly and I know you're not auditioning for the job. But make the case -- why would Bob McDonnell be a plus for a Republican national ticket?

MCDONNELL: Again, I'm not interviewing, I'm not waiting for that phone to ring. I want to help Mitt Romney because I believe our country is in trouble and we got crushing debt, deficits and no plan for jobs and energy. That's why I'm behind Mitt Romney.

But, look, you know, people are saying it's a swing state. We balance the budget without raising taxes, $1 billion in surplus, lowest unemployment in the Southeast. You know, we're really pleased with things we've been able to do in Virginia. But, Chris, look, that's up to the nominee. I just want to win because I want to so a better America for my kids and grandkids.

WALLACE: We're going to have to leave it there. Governor McDonnell, Congressman Watts, we thank you both so much for coming in.

MCDONNELL: Thanks, Chris.

WALLACE: Thanks for standing in for your two candidates. Some would say that you guys are better than they are. Please come back, both of you.

WATTS: Thank you, Chris.

MCDONNELL: All right. Chris, thanks a lot.

WALLACE: Up next, with two big victories this week -- how solid is Mitt Romney as the front runner? Our Sunday group breaks down where we are now in the Republican race and what happens next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: Mr. President, we welcome any good news on the job front, but it is thanks to the innovation of the American people and the private sector, and not to you, Mr. President.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Mitt Romney last night in Las Vegas celebrating a second big win this week and looking ahead to a general election campaign against President Obama.

And it's time now for our Sunday group -- Bill Kristol of "The Weekly Standard"; Liz Marlantes from "The Christian Science Monitor"; Fox News contributor Liz Cheney; and Fox News political analyst Juan Williams.

Well, Bill, Romney's win was certainly expected, but combined with a big win earlier in the week in Florida and what looks like a string of very strong states for him in February, how commanding is his position right now?

BILL KRISTOL, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": It's pretty commanding. But I think the key question is what you just said, the string of the apparently strong states coming up ahead.

I think Tuesday night is important. You asked Rick Santorum, "Is this make or break for you?" And he said, "Oh, no. It's a long campaign, plenty of time." But Tuesday night for Santorum will be an important moment to try to surpass Gingrich and also take on Romney, especially in Missouri.

For Romney, if he could win all three on Tuesday night -- one of them is only a beauty contest in Missouri -- and the two caucuses, then suddenly he's won five in a row. That would be a pretty impressive string.

WALLACE: But, in fairness, Liz Marlantes, we remember in February of 2008 Barack Obama won a string of victories in caucuses in February, and it didn't stop Hillary Clinton and she came was able to come back strong in March. So, I mean, even if you do well in one month, it doesn't preclude the others from staying in and prospering.

LIZ MARLANTES, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": If they can survive financially. And now we know that Newt Gingrich is facing some difficulties on that front.

WALLACE: He's what, $600,00 in debt, we believe now?

MARLANTES: In debt, right. Exactly. And it appears most of what he was doing in Nevada was trying to raise money, not actually campaign.

I thought it was a weird week in the sense that it was a very good for Romney in that he is basically consolidating. He seems to be restoring that sense of inevitability, marching inexorably towards the nomination. But on the other hand, it felt like a bad week for him in so many ways.

I mean, he had that gaffe about not being concerned about the very poor. There was the weird press conference with Donald Trump. It didn't actually feel like a great week for Romney.

And I think in the backdrop of that, what really has happened was we had the jobs numbers come out, the whole general election picture has been shifting. So, even as you get the sense that Romney is really consolidating his support, you don't feel like Republicans feel all that great about him or about his chances against Obama.

WALLACE: Liz Cheney, let's talk now not about Romney, but about Gingrich and Santorum, who are kind of holding on for their lives right now. We heard Santorum. And as Bill mentioned, really counting on a strong showing in Colorado, Minnesota and Missouri on Tuesday. Gingrich seems to really be hoping and holding on for Super Tuesday, 10 states, including a few southern states, including his home state of Georgia.

What do you think of their strategy? What do you think of their chances?

LIZ CHENEY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think that both of them have adopted pretty much the only strategy that's available to each of them. And I think it is it too soon to say this is over. I think each time you see a Romney victory it looks increasingly like he will be the nominee, but I don't think we'll really know.

Newt says he's going to hang on until Texas, in the beginning of April. So I think we'll see over the coming weeks.

I do think it's a mistake for Senator Santorum, as he did again in the interview with you today, to talk about these jobs numbers as though that somehow diminishes Romney's reason for being in the race. I think it ignores the still very poor economic condition that we're in.

It ignores the fact that these jobs numbers should have been better much longer, that this is a very anemic recovery, that in fact you've got higher levels of spending that you've had since World War II as a percentage of GDP, more people unemployed, fewer people employed that you've had since 1983. Very bad, significant economic challenges that we face that one month of job numbers doesn't turn around. And I think any of these Republican candidates would be better suited to deal with that than President Obama.

WALLACE: But let's talk about that, and let's put up the jobs numbers that came out Friday for January, because they were good.

The economy created 243,000 new jobs. The unemployment rate dropped for the fifth straight month to 8.3 percent, which is lowest in three years.

And that raises the question, Juan, if that were to continue, is it going to be hard for any Republican to run against Barack Obama?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's very hard if the economic numbers continue to get better. And these were -- as you said, Chris, these are terrific numbers. I mean, there is no getting away from that.

Liz's point sounds -- and I think Governor Romney's point sounds -- a little bit like cheering for bad news because of the political hope that this would give you a base to beat Barack Obama. But if you look at things like consumer confidence, the fact that employers are hiring -- tonight, when you watch the Super Bowl, you will see a ton of ads from the car companies. These people believe that things are getting better, and so, in a sense, that is very, very good news for President Obama.

WALLACE: Well, OK, Liz. Make the case that even if unemployment continues to go down, and more Americans are going back to work, Republicans run on the economy.

CHENEY: Look, I think there is nobody who is cheering for bad news. I think it is good news for all Americans when you see good jobs numbers. But I think it is wrong to assume that one month of this kind of jobs numbers takes care of the fundamental underlying problem, which is the massive debt which is, in large part, caused by the entitlement crisis.

And President Obama has been unwilling -- more than just unwilling to deal with that. He's been digging a hole deeper and deeper and deeper.

We learned just in the last week that we're going to have another trillion-dollar deficit. So, Americans still face a very fundamental choice this November about whether we're going to go down the path of Europe, whether we're going to face a massive debt crisis and the kind of austerity measures we're seeing now in Europe, or whether we're going to make a change.

WILLIAMS: Well, I agree with you Liz, it's not one month. But what I'm saying is the trajectory in terms of consumer confidence, employer hiring, is all positive. And when you talk about these underlying issues like debt, I think Americans are more concerned right now as a priority with jobs. Let's produce jobs.

And when you talk about making changes in terms of entitlement spending and the like, that's a larger discussion, but it is not topic one for the voters going forward to November.

CHENEY: Right.

WALLACE: Let me bring in Mitt (sic). Let me bring in Bill to talk about Mitt Romney, because this would seem to be a particular problem for him, because he is running so single-mindedly as the master of the economy, the turnaround artist who's going to turn around the economy. If the recovery is taking hold, if the economy seems to be turning around on its own, what is the rationale for his campaign?

KRISTOL: Well, there is a rationale, but I think Rick Santorum was right in his discussion with you. The rationale is, if you like Obamacare, reelect President Obama. If you like discriminating against Catholic institutions, reelect President Obama. If you like cap and trade, reelect President Obama. If you like increasing debt, reelect President Obama.

And you have to paint a bigger picture. And I do think, personally, that Mitt Romney has been so focused on making the "I'm a business CEO who can turn around the economy" argument, that he hasn't painted a bigger, broader picture of the choice facing the country. And I think Santorum has done -- with you did a good job on that.

WALLACE: Liz, let me bring you into this. And specifically -- because one of the things I admired about Obama in 2008 was his ability to make a big speech and hit reset on the campaign. We think most famously of the speech he give on race after the controversy over Reverend Wright.

Does Mitt Romney need to make a speech addressing his wealth, the gaffes that he's made, but more importantly, to make his candidacy about more than his biography?

MARLANTES: Well, I think one of the problems for him though is that some of these issues that Bill just cited, he is sort of uniquely badly positioned on. I mean, Obamacare is an issue that's a potent issue for Republicans, and it is a big motivating factor for Tea Party supporters.

But Romney is probably the worst candidate to be out front on that. Santorum -- all of the case that Santorum has been making I think is strong on that front. And ironically, even though Romney came in first in Nevada, had a resounding win in Florida, but then had these little gaffes, Santorum, who came in fourth in Nevada in an odd way, had sort of a good week. And we'll see what happens for him in Missouri and Colorado.

But we have seen some of these other issues as the economy has seemed to get better. We've seen other issues come to the fore that a candidate like Santorum is actually stronger on than Romney.

WALLACE: All right. We have to take a break here. But when we come back, the politics of health care involving breast cancer and birth control.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF., MINORITY LEADER: It just goes to show you when women speak out, women win. And women's health has a big victory this morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDY RIOS, FAMILY PAC FEDERAL: We are witnessing an absolute shakedown of an organization that simply wants to save the lives of women through cancer research.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was a taste of the furor this week over the Susan G. Komen Foundation's decision to cut funds from Planned Parenthood, and then Komen's sudden reversal.

And we're back now with the panel.

So, Liz Cheney, Komen, which is of course the nation's leading breast cancer advocacy group, got up in the culture wars this week, first deciding to defund, then deciding to reverse that and to fund Planned Parenthood's support for screening of breast cancer.

How much do you think both of its moves were caught up in politics?

CHENEY: Well, look, I think that at the end of the day, they mishandled both. I mean, I think there are an awful lot of pro-life conservative women out there -- I'm certainly one of them -- who had no idea that if you contribute to the Komen Foundation, that money which is fungible may well end up with Planned Parenthood, a group that is performing abortions.

So, I think it's an issue that, frankly, if Komen was going to do it, they should have been up front about the reasons why they were doing it. And I don't think there is any reason why this kind of pressure ought to be applied so that money that's supposed to be for breast cancer research is in fact going to something --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: But some would say that there was pressure in the first decision as well. I mean, both times they were under pressure.

CHENEY: Well, look, I think, actually, the most important story this week in terms of the presidential campaign and in terms of these issues was the Obama administration's decision.

WALLACE: We're going to get to that. Stay on the topic.

CHENEY: But I want to speak on it.

WALLACE: OK. All right. Then we'll move on so you can get time.

CHENEY: But the fact that the Obama administration is insisting that the Catholic Church --

WALLACE: No, no, no, Liz. Liz -- Liz --

CHENEY: -- to fund insurance --

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: Liz --

CHENEY: -- is critically important.

WALLACE: Liz, we're going to get back to you.

CHENEY: You may not get back to me, Chris. I want to make sure I get that point in.

WALLACE: See. I'm tough on her, too.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLACE: All right. Nevertheless, we don't run through red lights around here.

Let me put up a few facts though in this fight about Planned Parenthood, because they're interesting.

Planned Parenthood is the leading provider of abortions in this country. Over 300,000 performed in 2010. But abortions are just three percent of the services it provides. And over the last five years, Planned Parenthood has been responsible for four million breast exams.

So, should, Liz Marlantes, Komen get involved in the controversy over Planned Parenthood or not?

MARLANTES: I'm sure at this point they wish that they had not, because as was pointed out, most of us didn't even know that they were providing money to Planned Parenthood. And I think they're probably going to end up losing some funding over this. It's unclear, actually, that they completely backtracked. I think that point has been lost in some of this.

The statement they put out and the end of all this just kind of said, well, we're going to restore their funding for now, and they still have the right to apply for future grants, but that could mean anything. Anybody has the right to apply for grants.

And so, I think, you know, in terms of why they did this, it was totally a case study in bad PR in terms of how not to handle something. They were unclear about what their motives were. We heard shifting explanations that, on the one hand, it was because Planned Parenthood was under investigation, and then, on the other hand, it was because they don't actually provide mammograms, they just provide referrals for mammograms. And it just was all over the map.

And I think it really was unfortunate for the Komen Foundation. If they wanted to break ties with Planned Parenthood for political reasons, they probably should have been up front about that and realize they were going to take some hits for it

WALLACE: Bill and Juan, I want you to weigh in, and I want to add one more thing to the equation, and that is the fascinating aspect of social media, because there was a firestorm first against Komen for cutting funding, and then against Komen for restoring the funding on the Internet. And this comes just a month after the furor over piracy legislation which forced Congress to back down.

I mean, how big a player, how powerful a player is social media now in our politics?

KRISTOL: Oh, it's powerful. And as you said just a minute ago, the cultural wars are alive and well. And everyone wants to say, oh, they don't matter anymore, it's just the economy. "It's the economy, stupid," that wildly overused statement from the Clinton '92 campaign.

And it turns out, you know what? People care about a lot of issues, and people don't think that they have to restrict themselves because we're having tough economic times to only voting on or weighing in on or using social media to affect decisions on economic matters. They care about a lot of other things.

This, I think, was a very good wakeup call that the culture issues remain pretty important to an awful lot of Americans.

WALLACE: Juan.

WILLIAMS: Bill is exactly right. I mean, cultural issues are -- and from a political strategist point of view, the wedge issues, abortion being the foremost one, is absolutely still critical in this country and a huge divider. And it's been used since the Nixon days.

He tried to win the Catholic vote, and Obama won the Catholic vote last time. But at the moment, although he still has a lead before this whole controversy that was mentioned broke out, now the idea is that he's going to lose the white Catholic vote. And what's in danger here is the Hispanic Catholic vote.

That's the critical thing here. If you can get Hispanic Catholics who are very sensitive to the Church and to church orthodoxy to shift from Obama to the Republican column, that would be a huge victory for Republicans.

WALLACE: All right.

Now let's get into the thing that Liz wanted to talk about, and that is the fact that the Obama administration has decided that it is going to, as part of health care, say that Catholic institutions -- not churches, but charities and schools and hospitals -- must offer health insurance that covers contraception. The Catholic Church very upset about that, and so, apparently, is Liz Cheney.

CHENEY: Well, look, they're fighting back. And I think it's important that the Catholic Church is fighting back.

The government, the administration, ought not be in a position where they're forcing the Catholic Church to fund things that are fundamentally contrary to Catholic beliefs. And I think that at the end of the day, you're going to see Republicans and Democrats across the board, Catholics and non-Catholics, standing up against this.

And if the Catholic Church fights and pushes back against it, I think it's likely to win. It goes to the core of who we are as Americans. If the federal government is now telling people that they must in fact pay for something, contraception, the morning after pill, that the Catholic Church fundamentally disagrees with, or face fines, it could be potentially devastating.

WALLACE: Juan, how do you respond to that and the argument that the administration is making, which is, look, we're not saying that those women have to use birth control, we're simply saying they should have a choice? And there have been polls that indicate the vast majority of Catholic women, in fact, do use birth control.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Three-quarters of Catholic women do use birth control. Both control is almost universal in this country, and so this is not a First Amendment issue.

This is not a matter of religious liberty. Nobody is saying the Church has to do this. We're talking about -- as you properly outlined, we're talking charities, we're talking about schools, in some cases hospitals. This is federal government money that is being allocated. Why we should say one particular orthodoxy over --

WALLACE: This isn't even federal money. This is just simply saying that you, as part of your health coverage, have to cover those programs.

WILLIAMS: Yes, without a deductible. Right.

But that's saying, listen, this should be happening through any hospital, any charity that does health care planning, clinics and the like. And why should any religion -- I don't care if you're Muslim, Christian, whatever.

WALLACE: But there have -- because we're running out of time -- Bill, there had been a conscience clause which exempted Catholic institutions. Now the White House is saying no conscience clause.

KRISTOL: Well, this very narrow conscience clause. So Juan's principle falls -- even the Obama administration admits that people shouldn't be forced -- the institutions should be forced to pay for things that they find abhorrent to their beliefs. And what's -- the fundamental underlying issue is, why is the Obama administration telling everyone what kind of health insurance they have to have. Because of Obamacare.

This is why you don't want to go down that road in the first place.

WILLIAMS: You just changed the parameters of the debate.

KRISTOL: No.

WALLACE: All right. You know what? Thank you, panel. See you next week.

And don't forget to check out "Panel Plus," where we will pick right up with this discussion on our Web site, FoxNewsSunday.com. We promise we'll post the video before noon Eastern Time.

Up next, our "Power Player of the Week."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Philanthropy is an ancient Greek word which means loving humanity. There are all sorts of way to do that -- giving your time, your hard work, giving your money.

Here's our "Power Player of the Week."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID RUBENSTEIN, CO-FOUNDER, CARLYLE GROUP: You can't take it with you, so I think there's a big value in giving away the money while you can and while you're alive.

WALLACE (voice-over): David Rubenstein is one of Washington's biggest businessmen, but he may be better known for giving his money away.

Almost everywhere you turn in the nation's capital, there is one of his projects. When the Washington Monument was damaged by an earthquake, Rubenstein agreed to split the $15 million repair with the government. He bought a copy of the "Magna Carta," the 800-year-old English Bill of Rights for $21 million.

RUBENSTEIN: I was fortunate to be able to get it and to put it on permanent loan here.

WALLACE: And this week presided over its installation in the National Archives.

RUBENSTEIN: I'm very fortunate to be in a country where people like me can rise up to have this type of good fortune happen to me, and I really want to give back to Washington as well, because this is where so many good things have happened to me.

WALLACE: Rubenstein grew up in Baltimore, the son of a postal clerk who never made more than $8,000 a year. After getting a scholarship to Duke, he worked in Jimmy Carter's White House. And 25 years ago, he co-founded The Carlyle Group, now one of the country's biggest private equity firms.

RUBENSTEIN: It was an advantaged upbringing. I needed to apply myself, and that was a great advantage.

WALLACE: Rubenstein's job is to raise the billions of dollars the company invests.

(on camera): How many days a year do you travel?

RUBENSTEIN: I'm on a plane about 260 days a year. It's a lot of travel. I enjoy it or I wouldn't be doing it.

WALLACE (voice-over): He has a big vacation home on Nantucket. Out front there's a rock with an inscription.

RUBENSTEIN: The inscription says, "On the whole, I would rather be working." And that probably will be on my tombstone.

WALLACE: According to recent estimates, that work has made him a personal fortune of more than $2 billion.

(on camera): Which gives you more pleasure, making money or giving it away?

RUBENSTEIN: Well, of course giving away is greater pleasure. Making money is an intellectual challenge. It's fun, it's been a large part of my life. But giving away money is much more complicated as well.

WALLACE (voice-over): What he means is he wants his money to have an impact. He's given millions for student scholarships, $4.5 million for the pandas at the National Zoo, $10 million to The Kennedy Center, where he is chairman.

(on camera): Any idea how much money you have given over the years?

RUBENSTEIN: I do know. I do have good accountants. But it's probably not something I'm going to announce on television.

WALLACE: Over or under $100 million?

RUBENSTEIN: You can assume it would probably be over that.

WALLACE (voice-over): But it's just a start. Rubenstein has made the same pledge as Warren Buffett and Bill Gates to give away more than half of his wealth.

RUBENSTEIN: If I live a normal life span, I will have the opportunity to give away money for maybe another 20 years or so. So you never know if there is it a heaven or not. Most people believe there is. But I believe that if you give away money, you might have a better chance of getting to heaven. And, you know, why take a chance?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: Not surprisingly, Rubenstein doesn't think much of the attacks on Mitt Romney's career in private equity. Carlyle has investments in more than 200,000 companies that employ more than $600,000 people.

Now this program note. Next week our guests will include former governor Sarah Palin, who has been outspoken about the Republican presidential race. She will be live here in studio.

And that's it for today. Have a great week, and we'll see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

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Sunday November 30, 2014

Protests continue in Ferguson, MO and across the country, after a grand jury decided not to indict police officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown. In our special coverage of the "Fallout from Ferguson," we’ll discuss discrimination in the criminal justice system with Marc Morial, the President and CEO of the National Urban League. Then, we’ll talk with former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R), who says the real threat to black children is not a white police force, but black-on-black crime.