David Bossie on the special counsel's bombshell indictments

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," October 30, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: Hello, there! And I've got it. Thank you, Bret. Thanks so much! Busy Monday, we pick up "The Story" from here. Good evening, everybody, welcome to "The Story."

Breaking tonight, indictments for Manafort and Gates related not to the Trump campaign, but to their years as lobbyists for Ukraine. At the same time, another partner in those deals, Tony Podesta, Democrat Operative and brother of Hillary Clinton's campaign manager, shocked a lot of people today by stepping aside after his connections to Manafort were revealed. So, what is to come there? Where is this story going, is it winding down or is it revving up? And what about the Clinton campaign's involvement? Today, Paul Manafort's attorney was too defiant after the court appearance.


KEVIN DOWNING, ATTORNEY FOR PAUL MANAFORT: I think you all saw it today that President Donald Trump was correct, there is no evidence that Mr. Manafort or the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government. You see an indictment brought by an office of special counsel that is using a very novel theory to prosecute Mr. Manafort regarding a FARA file. The United States government has only used that offense six times since 1966 and only resulted in one conviction. The second thing about this indictment that I myself find most particular is the claim that maintaining offshore accounts to bring all your funds into the United States as a scheme to conceal from the United States government is ridiculous.


MACCALLUM: And the White House pushing back hard; the president we did this, "Sorry, but this is years ago before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But aren't Crooked Hillary and the Dems the focus? Also, there is NO COLLUSION!" He wrote, exclamation point, in caps. But we also learned more about the charges against one-time campaign foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos. He pled guilty to lying to the investigators when they came to talk to him about all of this about his time with the campaign. The White House, on that, had this to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you just explain what George Papadopoulos' role in the campaign was?

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It was extremely limited, it was a volunteer position. And again, no activity was ever done in an official capacity on behalf of the campaign in that regard.


MACCALLUM: Big lineup tonight to break all this down for you. David Bossie, former Trump deputy campaign manager has the inside story for us in a moment; and Law Professor Alan Dershowitz with the legal fallout. But we take you first to the White House where Chief National Correspondent Ed Henry is standing by with the very latest on this story tonight, which keeps popping. Hi, Ed.

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Still developing, Martha. Good to see you. I'm told the president's legal team met here with him early today to make sense out of all of this. The indictments and the guilty plea, and they came away from that believing this has nothing to do with the president and that they're confident Special Counsel Robert Mueller's probe will not lead to the oval office. However, these are deadly serious charges, criminal charges involving the president's former campaign chair, Paul Manafort, and his Business Associate Rick Gates both pleading not guilty. The two men facing up to 20 years in prison and the 12-count indictment charging conspiracy to launder money, dating back to around 2006 -- allegedly funneling $75 million through shell companies while working for a pro-Russian political party in the Ukraine years before the 2016 election.

So, in terms of actual collusion in that election, legal expert, Andrew McCarthy, writes a national review, "The Paul Manafort indictment is much to do about nothing, except as a vehicle to squeeze in Manafort, which is Special Counsel Robert Mueller's objective." And one of the president's top lawyers Ty Cobb says, the White House is not worried at all about Mueller squeezing either Manafort or potentially down the road former National Security Advisor, General Michael Flynn. Cobb suggests, they can't flip on the president because they have nothing, telling a podcast for The New York Times, "The president has no concerns in terms of any impact as to what happens to them on his campaign or in the White House."

And as you noted, it turns out today's indictment also implicates Democratic Lobbyist Tony Podesta, brother of Clinton Campaign Chair John Podesta. In the indictment, Tony Podesta's company, The Podesta Group is listed as Company B, which work with Manafort engaged to lobby on behalf of that pro-Russian political party. Tony Podesta today revealing he'll step down from his firm. Perhaps more worrisome for the White House tonight, there was a surprise that ex-Trump Campaign Foreign Policy Advisor, George Papadopoulos, pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about a conversation he had in 2016 with a professor close to the Russian government, who claims he had dirt on Hillary Clinton, though Sarah Sanders tried to downplay his role.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say George Papadopoulos had no official capacity, what do you mean by that?

SANDERS: I mean, he was a volunteer on the campaign and a volunteer member of an advisory council at that one time.


HENRY: Except Papadopoulos was photographed with then-candidate Trump who counted him as an advisor and a fine man during an October board meeting at The Washington Post. Today's police say, the advisor had several interactions with Russians and has been cooperating with the special counsel since July. But the bottom line tonight is there is still no evidence from everything that happened today that there was any collusion in the last election, though the big mystery tonight is why Papadopoulos lied to the FBI if he had nothing to hide, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Yes, great question. Ed, thank you very much. David Bossie, former trump deputy campaign Manager is also a Fox News Contributor. David, good evening to you.


MACCALLUM: Thanks for being here as always. You know, I guess to jump forward for a moment, the Papadopoulos issue, you were in the campaign when he was there, did you know him?

BOSSIE: First, no, he was not there when he was there. I came on at the end of the campaign, Martha, as you remember, Steve Bannon and Kellyanne Conway came on in mid-August and I came on just after.

MACCALLUM: All right. So, you weren't there until September and he was there in March. So, did you interact with him at all?

BOSSIE: Never heard of him.

MACCALLUM: Never heard of him.

BOSSIE: Never heard of him.

MACCALLUM: OK. You know, the concern that he may have been wearing a wire, that he may have still been involved in talking to people at the campaign, what you think about that?

BOSSIE: I think that's far-fetched. Look, no one knows, but, you know, the campaign ended, you know, almost a year ago now. So, I think that the potential of him wearing a wire at the campaign, I don't see where this investigation would have been at any stage to have done that, first. And secondly, there was -- I wish he was because there was no collusion, so I think that that would be a nice thing to be able to prove to people.

MACCALLUM: You know, in terms of some of the other reports that are out there tonight, one says that the White House is more concerned about Rick Gates because he maintained his relationships longer than Paul Manafort did with people at the White House. And also, that they weren't relieved that it was not Michael Flynn today, but of course that could still come.

BOSSIE: Well, you know, anything is possible, Martha. But, obviously, Rick Gates and Paul Manafort ran the campaign for about eight weeks. They were in charge, and they were there a little bit before Paul Manafort actually took over. But they were there for about eight weeks in charge, and I can just submit to you that when I got there at the end of August, you know, there was nothing to do, no discussion whatsoever about Russia, Russia collusion, anything like that. It's just this far-fetched. And I understand why the president is frustrated because he can only say there was no collusion so many times and then you look at the Uranium One deal, you look at what's going on with the DNC and others, paying for this mysterious dossier. Now, there are a lot of questions about that in actual fact, and there's none as it comes to -- out of these two indictments and his guilty plea; nothing to do with the campaign or collusion.

MACCALLUM: Yes. We're going to dig into that a bit more in a moment. You know, just a question for you, because a lot of people said today that this was not a big surprise. When you looked at the indictments and you looked at the conspiracy charges that were laid out in this indictment, that a lot of people knew that Paul Manafort had a lot of business relationships that they thought were questionable. So, when he was -- when you were observing all of this, and you were, you know, sort of in the larger circle throughout it before you came on, did you think it was a mistake to hire him in the first place?

BOSSIE: You know, I did. To be honest with you, Martha, I don't know Paul Manafort well at all. But I know that -- I personally didn't think he was the delegate hunter, the right mix, the right makeup for the campaign. He hadn't been involved -- I thought of that because -- not because of his business dealings, it's just because he hadn't been involved in the campaign really since the advent of the fax machine.


BOSSIE: So, I was kind of somebody who was, who was surprised that he would be in charge.

MACCALLUM: You know, there's one quote from him saying to one of his Russian clients, an oligarch, Deripaska. You know, since I'm now associated with the campaign, maybe we can -- maybe we can help me get whole on this. What do you think about that? Do you think he was using his relationship with the campaign to continue to get money out of his relationships in Ukraine?

BOSSIE: Yes. Again, that's what it sounds like, Martha. It sounds like people who have a little tiny bit of access in one case, but in Paul Manafort, he was obviously, you know, the campaign manager and he is somebody who obviously was trying to -- had other business dealings that he was trying to move forward, obviously.

MACCALLUM: And that's one of the reasons he was no longer with the campaign after eight weeks when all that started coming out. David, always good to see you thank you very much.

BOSSIE: Thanks for having me.

MACCALLUM: So, our next guest said special counsel, in this case, can be "dangerous." Here to explain that and more of what he thinks about the today's developments, Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law Professor Emeritus and author of the new book "Trumped Up: How Criminalization of Political Differences Endangers Democracy." Alan, always good to see you, good to have you here. You said today, you think that Manafort is domino number one, what do you mean?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, PROFESSOR AT HARVARD LAW AND AUTHOR: Well, there's no question that although Manafort didn't do anything that had anything to do with the Russian probe or anything like that, his indictment has everything to do with Trump. They would never have indicted him for money laundering or tax evasion, if he weren't somebody who they thought could turn on Trump, could provide information or evidence. If not Trump, somebody higher up in the chain between Manafort and Trump. This is dominoes. You knocked on the first domino, that knocks down the second domino. Ultimately, what Mueller is aiming for is the big domino in the oval office. I don't think they're going to get them. I don't think they have anything, because of collusion, even if were to be established, isn't a crime. You have to find something that actually violates the federal criminal statutes. I don't think they're even close to that.

MACCALLUM: You say that Kushner could be one of the dominoes to fall here?

DERSHOWITZ: Look, anybody who was close to Donald Trump at this point.

MACCALLUM: But based on what?

DERSHOWITZ: Is a target. They're going to -- in Kushner's case, they're going to maybe allege that he failed to disclose something on his farm. Nobody is ever prosecuted for that, but if they can find anybody for jaywalking, that's what Mueller would do. The goal is to get somebody and squeeze and squeeze.

MACCALLUM: And that goes back to what you said initially, which, you know, having a special counsel is dangerous, whether you're Democrat or Republican.

DERSHOWITZ: That's right.

MACCALLUM: Because they're higher, they spent a lot of money on. And they tend to sort of begin the process to keep the pull on the strings if they don't appear to be getting anywhere. You know, one of the points that are often brought up is that Bill Clinton didn't meet Monica Lewinsky until 18 months after the special prosecutor began the investigation. So, this could go on and on.

DERSHOWITZ: This could go on and on, and there are no limits to what an independent special counsel can do. And this shows that because all they're trying to do -- this is what they do with the mafia, this is what they do with terrorist cases, with corporate crime cases. They find a low- hanging fruit, they find a guy who they can go after because of his tax returns aren't perfect or something else, or he didn't file a form, then they threaten him. If a civilian did that, it would be called extortion, but a prosecutor is allowed to extort essentially. The problem is they want him to sing, but some of these people also want to compose. They want to come out with even better evidence because of the better the evidence the sweeter the deal they're going to get. So, any criminal lawyer will tell you that we've seen a lot of witnesses who were cooperating witnesses who made up stories.

And that's why maybe they try to get a wire on some of these witnesses because you can't make up a wire. But you can make up what you remember, what you saw, you can exaggerate it. You know, as a civil libertarian, I have been opposed to this for years. I'm opposed to it whether the Republicans are doing it against Hillary Clinton whether the Democrats are doing it against Donald Trump. I really think that our criminalizing our criminal justice system, having the first recourse, lock her up, lock them up, endangers all of our rights, and endangers democracy. I hope we can pull back and stop doing that. If you don't like what Donald Trump did, don't vote for him. If you don't like what Hillary Clinton did, you know, put her in the wastebasket of history if that's what you think. But using criminal charges is very dangerous.

MACCALLUM: All right. Alan Dershowitz, always good to see you. Thank you, sir.

DERSHOWITZ: God bless. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, coming up next, what does this mean for Special Counsel Robert Mueller?


SANDERS: The president said last week, I believe it was last week, and I've said several times before, there's no intention or plan to make any changes in regards to the special counsel.


MACCALLUM: So, mixed reactions tonight on what the former FBI director's role should be, given the growth of even the Democratic Party in this investigation, and the fact that he was overseeing the FBI at the time. House Intelligence Committee Member, Pete King, joins me in a moment on that. And new reports raising some serious questions about the Democrats' involvement in the anti-Trump dossier, and possibly a link to former President Barack Obama as well. We'll show you what that is. Plus, the Virginia governor's race turning so ugly as a new Democratic ad portrays Republicans as confederates hunting down minority children. We will show you this thing when we come back. Former Arkansas Governor, Mike Huckabee, weighs in on that with his take. We're going to hear what he thinks of it when we come back. More on "The Story."


MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight, as the first charges of the Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation continue to send shock waves through Washington, some new questions tonight about what the future holds for Mueller. The White House says President Trump has no intention of firing him despite what many Democrats may think.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to make sure that the White House, that President Trump, does not fire Robert Mueller because that would be clearly something that he would be considering right now in order to shut down this investigation.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, D-N.Y.: The president must not under any circumstances, in any way, interfere with the special counsel's work.


MACCALLUM: House Intelligence Committee Member, Peter King, joins me now. Good to see you tonight, congressman. Is that a real concern on their part?

REP. PETER KING, R-N.Y.: No, it really is not. I mean. I've heard nothing from the White House other than they want to cooperate. They feel that things are going well -- I'm hearing that secondhand, but there's no indication at all from anyone that the president wants to get rid of Bob Mueller. Listen, the president is not happy about the investigation because he's convinced that there's no collusion, but the reality is, there is a special counsel and the White House was fully cooperating. His lawyers at the White House are cooperating entirely with Bob Mueller, totally.

MACCALLUM: So, what's your take away from today? Do you think that the White House should feel that this is heading in a favorable direction for them, or do you think it's just the beginning?

KING: Well, I've said all along, I've heard no testimony at all, I'm on the Intelligence Committee, which in any way shows any collusion whatsoever. The fact that Manafort and Gates were indicted today, it has nothing to do with the campaign, nothing to do with President Trump. It involves incidents going back anywhere from six to 11 years ago, it involves the Ukraine; nothing with the campaign. And I think this is an attempt by Mueller in case Manafort has something on President Trump, which I am convinced he doesn't, to try and turn them. And that's what that is. As far as Papadopoulos, I really -- I never heard of him, I didn't know anything about him, and it seemed to me -- I don't want to prejudge it, but if you're going to be involved in some sort of collusion, you're not going to pick someone that no one has heard of. And by all accounts so far, everything he tried to do as far as setting up a meeting with Russian was rejected by the White House.

MACCALLUM: And there's, you know, specific quotes from Paul Manafort saying that he does not -- you know, just to make it clear, the president's not going to take any meeting of that sort, and, you know, somebody should let down the chain, should let them know that. I do want to ask a quick question about tax reform, because I know there's an 8:30 phone call tonight with members of Congress and the White House. I know you've been very concerned that that tax deal would include the elimination of the state and local tax deductions. How is that going?

KING: There's been some progress in that. Kevin Brady, Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee has said that they will allow the property tax deduction to continue, but they will not allow the state income tax deduction. And to me, that would be a big hit against New York, against my constituents. You know, the property tax, that's a step forward, but the fact they still want to keep the state income tax out, to me, that would have a real impact on my constituents, and I cannot sign onto that certainly at this stage because I want everyone to get a tax cut. I don't want the rest of the country to get a tax cut and have my constituents subsidizing it.

MACCALLUM: I mean, the initial budget deal was a lot closer than anybody thought it was going to be. Is that the kind of picture that you expect to see on the real bill, the way it looks right now?

KING: Well, you know, the final bill was 216 to 212, and among those 216 were a number of members of Congress who I believe would vote against the tax deal as written right now. They voted for it because they wanted to move it forward and they want to give the Ways and Means Committee time to come out with more details, which I understand. The fact is Republican leadership is very concerned that -- of that 216, they could lose another five to 10 of them. So, they are concerned, yes.

MACCALLUM: Well, no doubt. They will be listening on that phone call tonight. We will too. We'll hear what comes out of it. Thank you very much, Peter King, good to see you tonight.

KING: Martha, thank you. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Jay Christian Adams was a Justice Department Attorney during the George W. Bush administration and he joins us with his thoughts on all of his big news and development tonight. Good to see you tonight, sir, welcome to the program again.


MACCALLUM: What you make of these charges, what do they say to you?

ADAMS: It's a pretty weak debut. You know, you are expecting more. Don't forget, Martha, why Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself. It's because of something involving Russian collusion, but when you read the indictment, it's striking how these are charges from things that happened a long time ago, have nothing to do with Russia. Yet take a look at how the attorneys who drafted it struggled to inject Russia into the story. They talk about the president of the Ukraine fleeing to Moscow --

MACCALLUM: We have that quote actually -- we pulled that out, and let me put it on the screen while you explain why you picked out this sentence and why you think that it was -- it reflects politicalization of this document.

ADAMS: Right. All through the indictment, you have these unnecessary illusions to Russia that have nothing to do with laundering Ukrainian money. Nothing to do with paying in Alexandria, Virginia rug maker or rug store to take your money. It all has to do with keeping the Russia story alive by dribbling these little hints that there something more nefarious than rank money laundering going on. And so, I think that's a problem with the team that Mueller has assembled. There's been plenty of reporting about who these lawyers are, and it is really time to examine whether or not this investigation is going anywhere. This is a terribly weak debut.

MACCALLUM: You say that Mueller should resign or he should be fired, why?

ADAMS: Well, I think Rod Rosenstein needs to get this under control. He's the deputy attorney general. And Jeff Sessions resigned because this was supposed to be about Russia, not rug stores. This was supposed to be about collusion, not wire transfers to pay a mortgage. And so, we aren't really seeing what we were promised for the last several months by the Democrats.

MACCALLUM: Jay Christian Adams, always good to see you, sir, thank you very much.

ADAMS: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you. So, still to come tonight, the Democrats' growing connection to the anti-Trump dossier.


REP. TREY GOWDY, R-S.C.: I'm not an election law expert, Chris, but the good news is you don't have to be to understand the absurdity of believing that you can launder all of your campaign money by just hiring a law firm.


MACCALLUM: So, now, there are reportedly some who are drawing a connection between President Obama and the law firm that funneled that money to Fusion GPS. We will break that down. We'll tell you what that's all about. Former Congressman Jason Chaffetz and Matt Bennett, a former deputy assistant to President Clinton debate that next. Plus, a new NFL protest, but the show of solidarity had nothing to do with disrespecting our country. Find out why they did it when we come back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We came together as a team and wanted to, you know, send a message and that's what we decided to do and stand by my brothers.



MACCALLUM: So, new questions tonight about who paid what, and when, for the now infamous Trump dossier. There are no reports that an Obama-aligned group paid nearly a million dollars to that law firm that we've heard so much about in recent days. And the DNC and the Clinton Campaign used to hire Fusion GPS to gather all their research; Perkins Coie was sort of the middle in a lot of these transactions. Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast Newsroom with the backstory. Hey, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CHANNEL REPORTER: Hey, Martha. Yes, Perkins Coie is the law firm. And the Federalist is now reporting that former President Obama's campaign organization paid Perkins Coie, $972,000. And in reference to that story, President Trump tweeted the following, quote, report out that Obama campaign paid $972,000 to Fusion GPS, the firm also got $12,400,000 really, from DNC, nobody knows who OK'd? But it appears the president is making a connection that has yet to be established, because while the Obama campaign reportedly did pay money to Perkins Coie, there is no evidence yet that Perkins Coie paid that money to Fusion. Now, it's significant because Hillary Clinton's campaign and the Democratic National Committee did pay $9 million to Perkins Coie, and in turn that money was paid to Fusion GPS. That's when Fusion hired Christopher Steel, the former British intel officer who wrote the now infamous Steele dossier, a document filled with lurid allegations about Donald Trump that had been widely discredited.

Meantime, the Washington Free Beacon is trying to get as far away from the dossier as possible. The Free Beacon does acknowledge initially hiring Fusion GPS to get dirt on them-candidate Donald Trump during the GOP primaries. But the conservative publication goes on to say, quoting here, the Free Beacon had no knowledge of, or connection to the Steele dossier or provided payment for any work performed by Christopher Steel. But no connection to the Steele dossier does not mean the Free Beacon is back in the president's good gracious. In fact, former White House strategist chief, Steve Bannon, has reportedly promise the president to, quote, go off the chain to destroy.


GALLAGHER: . he's the man who finances the Washington Free Beacon.

MACCALLUM: Yeah. Bannon, I'm going off the chain against Singer he said. Thank you very much, Trace. Here with more, Jason Chaffetz, former House Oversight Committee chairman and Fox News contributor, and Matt Bennett, former deputy assistant to President Bill Clinton, and co-founder of Third Way. Jason, let me start with you. What you think about that Bannon quote?

JASON CHAFFETZ, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, when you have Republicans going after Republicans like the Free Beacon is just doing its background and its research. If there was an actual tie then that would be one thing, but Steve Bannon is free to do what he wants. He's in the private sector. He could do what he wants.

MACCALLUM: So Matt, in terms of the $10 to $12 million that was funneled through Perkins Coie in order to fund this dossier through Fusion GPS, many are saying that that's a clearer link to trying to get Russian help to influence the election and pretty much anything they've seen on the Trump side.

MARK BENNETT, THIRD WAY CO-FOUNDER: Well, I don't know who these many are, but here's a couple of things that are true, first of all, much of what is in the dossier the U.S. intelligence services says is probably true, is what Trace said I don't think is right. Second, there's absolutely.

MACCALLUM: Well, Christopher Steel said that the whole thing was never verified and that it was never meant to be made public.

BENNETT: Well, but when asked, the CIA and others in the intelligence community has said that a lot of it is true. But the point is this, what Steel was doing is talking to Russians about what they knew of Trump. He wasn't necessarily talking to the Russian government. With the Mueller investigation is looking at is whether the Russian government was involved in some sort of direct involvement in U.S. elections, perhaps through connection to the Trump campaign. Those are very, very different things. And let me just say about the Obama.

MACCALLUM: One thing lead to the government and Russia in one way or another. But Jason, do you want to respond to that?

CHAFFETZ: Well, yeah, I mean, you have the DNC, you have Hillary Clinton's campaign putting in more than $10 million and nobody seems to remember who authorized that. Who did anything with it? Then you have Obama for America, about 20 percent of their expenditure in 2016, $972,000 goes to this law firm, then you have somebody in the communications team at the White House, the Obama White House, whose husband happens to just work for Fusion GPS. I'm sure that's all just a terrible coincidence, but suddenly now nobody can remember anything about whatever. If you've talk to Debbie Wasserman-Shultz, well, I don't remember that big expenditure.

MACCALLUM: Matt, what do you think?

Matt: Look, the Obama campaign uses Perkins Coie as does virtually every campaign in Democratic politics because they're the world's leading experts in election law. They were paying them to finish the work they were doing on the Obama campaign. It takes about ten years to wind down a presidential campaign. So this idea that because they've paid this gigantic multi-city law firm money that it's necessarily was involved in this is nuts. There's absolutely no connection that anyone has made between the two.

CHAFFETZ: But that's why you have to follow up with what Paul Ryan said was going to happen this week, which is the FBI giving congress all of the financial documents so they can follow that financial trail. They have to get to that.

MACCALLUM: And we're all in the wrong business to get paid for ten years after the election. That's a pretty good deal. Matt, thank you. I do want to ask Jason Chaffetz about some unkind comments that were made in an exhaustive piece about the postretirement, John Boehner, who obviously used to be speaker of the house. And here's what he said about you, Jason. Apparently there's love lost there. Gowdy, that's my guy, even though he does not know how to dress, he says. Then Boehner leans back in his chair and said, blank, Jordan, blank, Chaffetz, they're both -- well, you can read the rest. Think about that.

CHAFFETZ: I held no ill will towards the speaker, but I was a little surprised to see that. John Boehner supported my run for chairman of the oversight committee. I wouldn't have been the chairman if it weren't for John Boehner. But then there's an expectation from the senior most leadership that you hand over your voting card, and you get inline, and you support everything they did, and I just wasn't that guy, and that's not what I did, and I think he -- you know. But if you're going to let me together with Jim Jordan, I'm OK with that.

MACCALLUM: So he's off your Christmas card list?

CHAFFETZ: I didn't get a present from them last year. I wonder why?

MACCALLUM: Well, now we know. Thank you, Jason. Good to see you today.

CHAFFETZ: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So still ahead tonight on The Story, a new sexual assault allegation against an A-list actor, but its Kevin Spacey's response that is creating a big controversy, and House of Cards is no more. But first, the Virginia governor's race takes a dark turn, and a new political ad compares Republicans to confederates for driving through the streets in dark glasses hunting down small children. We're going to show you that. Former governor Mike Huckabee will join me with his take after this.


MACCALLUM: In just a week, voters in Virginia will head to the polls to pick the states next governor. Polls show that it's a tight race between Republican Ed Gillespie, and Democrat Ralph Northam. Supporters on both sides not holding back to get their guy elected. Just look at this new attack ad from a Democratic Latino group.



UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Run, run, run. Come on.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this what Donald Trump and Ted Gillespie mean by the American dream?


MACCALLUM: Wow. Here is former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, also a Fox News contributor, good evening, governor. What do you think about that?

MIKE HUCKABEE, FOX NEWS CONTRUBUTOR: You know, politics can be really sleazy sometimes, Martha, but whoever made that ad should have to go to a car wash and be hosed off before they're ever allowed inside another facility where human beings exist. That was just disgustingly low. And I just can't imagine that anybody would embrace that kind of ad. I think it's the type of ad that will backfire and actually help Ed Gillespie, because it's just so disgusting and so beyond the pale.

MACCALLUM: So you think that kind of ad, which, you know, I mean you're right, that is one of the worst that I've ever seen. But we remember, you know, Paul Ryan throwing grandma off the cliff, and all kinds of things that go all the way back to Andrew Jackson. John Quincy Adams called his mother a murderer and his wife an adulterous or something. Politics, as you say, gets pretty low. But what does this add say about sort of how low -- how rough it is in terms of how we're going after each other out there today?

HUCKABBE: Well, it's one thing to go after people for issues, and to be very specific about it. But that's not what this is. This is the character assassination by association, and that's what makes it so incredibly disgusting. They don't even say that this represents Ed Gillespie, but they're even trying to say that there is somebody out there who supports Ed Gillespie who would think this. Well, first of all, we don't know that, and Ed Gillespie is not this person at all. He's an honorable guy. I wonder if Ralph Northam will disavow this ad and will condemn it because if he doesn't, then he's embraced it and then he's as sleazy as the ad that's trying to get him elected. So that's the real question for Virginia voters. And this ad presumes they're really stupid. This ad presumes that they can think for themselves, and that they would be able to be suckered in by something this despicable. Let's hope not.

MACCALLUM: Let's go terrify some small children and, you know, send them running to the streets while a man with dark sunglasses chases them until they go over a fence, and teach kids that that what's, you know, that's what represents conservatism or Republicanism in this country. I think it's a pretty low point, as you say. I want to take your attention to the 2020 presidential race, which apparently is already, sort of, bubbling up out there, and there's a lot of suggestion that President Trump could potentially face a challenger, or that he might decide not to run, even from two gentlemen who share that stage with him, as you did as well. Let's hear what they had to say.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I think no one can stop primaries from happening, and there could well be a primary that happens. Before you even get to that, you need to know if President Trump running for reelection. I think you won't know that until you get into the second, third year of his presidency.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: If he worked together with supporters, yes. But I'm not so sure what will happen. You know, four years is a long time, and especially for someone who has not spent a lifetime in politics.


MACCALLUM: What do you make of that?

HUCKABBE: Well, let me first of all clarify. I'm not running. I don't know about any of those other guys, but I'm done. So get that off the table.

MACCALLUM: We will miss you on the debate stage.


HUCKABBE: I think he's very likely will run again. And I will tell you something, if he does, he will win again. You know, the very people who are already speculating about will he, will he not, will there be a primary opponent? These are the same people that said Donald Trump has no pathway to the nomination. He has no pathway to the presidency. Let's see. Who's sitting in the White House tonight? Well, it ain't those people who said he had no pathway. So, you know, it's a little bit early to be throwing flowers at his gravesite, politically.

MACCALLUM: Yeah. I mean, he seems to be -- you know, despite everything that's going on, and what we spent the first third of the show talking about, he seems to be enjoying the office and the work quite a bit.

HUCKABBE: I think he is.

MACCALLUM: I mean that's the impression that we get. So Governor Huckabee, thank you very much. It's good to see you as always. And, you know, maybe you'll change your mind, you'll never know.

HUCKABBE: No, I don't think so. Happy Halloween.

MACCALLUM: You too. All right. So when we come back.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: This is how you view us. You get out of line, you're an inmate.


MACCALLUM: Almost the entire Houston Texans football team took a knee before Sunday's game, but they say it had nothing to do with what you usually see as the reason for that. Gianno Caldwell and Richard Fowler take on that debate coming up next.


MACCALLUM: A new protest and a sign of solidarity on the Sunday NFL sidelines yesterday, as all but six players on the Houston Texans took a knee during the national anthem. But the players say that it was not about the flag, but what about team owner Bob McNair said during an NFL owners meeting last week. He said, quote, we can't have the inmates running the prison. He has since apologized. He said the comment was not aimed at the players and was taken out of context, but the damage was already done. And here now, Gianno Caldwell, Republican strategist and Fox News political analyst, and Richard Fowler, nationally syndicated radio talk show host and a Fox News contributor. Gentlemen, welcome, good to see both of you tonight. I think it's eight or nine weeks into the protest that we've been watching on the NFL, but this one came really as the result of the comment that was made by Bob McNair. Gianno, what did you make of it?

GIANNO CALDWELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I thought it was a stupid and irresponsible comment and provides gravitas to those who would say that these owners have been utilizing players in a racial way. It does, in that sense. And it reminded me of another comment by a Cowboys executive who told the NFLPA, which is the National Football League Players Association, we are the ranchers, referring being an owner, and you guys are the cattle, and we can always get more cattle. So when you think about those kinds of works, and of course, I respect the rights of owners to do whatever they will with their players within the bounds of the law, but when you think about it in that context, it's just so inappropriate, and it's something that they shouldn't say, and they should really change their way of being around the issue like this. And it's no longer about racial injustice. It's about players now protesting anybody that they have a grievance with, whether it be President Trump or NFL owners.

MACCALLUM: Yeah. I mean, there's some discussion, you know, far off and probably very slim chances that ESPN might even stop airing NFL football games because this has just turned into such a weight on the game, Richard.

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, I think that's absolutely right. It has turned into a weight on the game, and this owner has also weighed in to this larger narrative and this larger problem. And I think his language speaks to -- there's so much hidden language in that particular quote, you know. We can't have the inmates run the jail. And what that means to those players and how hurtful that is to a team that for a lot of these protests have really said we respect our owner and we're not going to engage, and now because our owner has sort of slapped us in the face with this language that some would argue is racially insensitive, it's morally insensitive, inconceivable, right? Now these players have taken a knee and they've said this will continue because this owner has now tried to say, oh, if I really wasn't talking about you guys, which, obviously, the audience he's talking about that.

MACCALLUM: Roger Goodell say they're all going to work towards unity. So far, you know, week one after that isn't really going so well, they better start over in that effort. Also today, Netflix pulling the plug on the popular political drama, House of Cards, a day after actor Kevin Spacey became embroiled in a scandal. Star Trek Discovery Star, Anthony Rapp says that Spacey sexually assaulted him in 1986 when Rapp was just 14 years old, its Spacey's response that created more controversy. He said he doesn't remember it. Then he took the opportunity to come out as gay, your thoughts, Gianno? I'm sorry. Go ahead, Richard.

FOWLER: Go ahead, Gianno.

CALDWELL: I didn't know that it was really a secret about Kevin. But I think, honestly speaking, I'm in Hollywood right now and I'll tell you that the culture of sexual exploitation is about to be revealed, and I think it's just as big as a Hollywood blockbuster. I meet with people in the Hollywood elite on a regular basis and they tell me that this kind of stuff has been going on for years and it is something that now that everyone is being able to come out and actually be protected in that way that there's going to be a lot more stories come out like this.

MACCALLUM: Richard, I have just about ten seconds. I'm sorry, guys, I'm getting cut off.

FOWLER: I think there's something to be said about him hiding and shielding his pedophilia and coming out.


FOWLER: I mean, coming out.

MACCALLUM: Bad choice of words.

FOWLER: . as someone who's gay is the hardest thing to do.

MACCALLUM: I've got to go, guys. I'm sorry. We'll take a quick break and we'll talk more about it when we come back.


MACCALLUM: Halloween a day early at the White House today. The president and the first lady handed out candy to the children who came by from local schools and military families. Everybody got a White House cookie and a presidential M&M's. That sounds good. Make sure you get your trick-or- treat done early tomorrow because we will be here at 7:00 PM tomorrow night and we'll see you then. Tucker is up next.

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