A little more than a month into Donald Trump's Presidency we'll sit down with 2 Governors as they travel to the nation’s capital for the National Governors Association’s winter meeting. Terry McAuliffe (D-VA) Chairman of the NGA and Scott Walker (R-WI) will discuss governors’ collective priorities for the new administration and Congress.
Transcript: Sens. Graham, Kerry on 'FNS'
Written by Chris Wallace / Published September 28, 2008 / Fox News Sunday
The following is a partial transcript of the Sept. 28, 2008, edition of "FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace":
"FOX NEWS SUNDAY" HOST CHRIS WALLACE: And hello again from FOX News in Washington, where we had some big news overnight. After days of marathon negotiating, congressional Democrats and Republicans and top administration officials announced a tentative deal to rescue the endangered financial markets.
If all goes as planned, and that's always a big "if," the House will vote on Monday followed by the Senate, all of this while there are now just 37 days till you vote for president.
And with one debate in the books and three to go, we want to take a look at where the campaigns stand at this moment. Joining us, John McCain's avid supporter, Senator Lindsey Graham, and an early backer of Barack Obama, Senator John Kerry.
And, gentlemen, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday."
MASSACHUSETTS SEN. JOHN KERRY: Glad to be with you.
SOUTH CAROLINA SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM: Thank you.
WALLACE: Let's start with a tentative agreement on a financial rescue plan.
Senator Graham, what's better about this proposal than the deal that was rejected at the White House on Thursday?
GRAHAM: The House is on board. The best thing that could happen for all of us up here politically is to hold hands across the aisle and bicamerally.
If you can get House Republicans saying, "This is a good product for the country," then confidence will be built around the product. And having everybody inside the deal politically is much better.
I would not want my Democratic colleagues, quite frankly, to have to walk off a cliff in the House and have no Republicans on board. So I think it's a better deal for the taxpayer. There's an insurance component that didn't exist before. It's a phased-in product.
But the main thing is that the House is involved now. Then every corner of American political life is embracing this deal, which will help us as a nation.
WALLACE: Senator Kerry, let's talk about a little bit of the details. As Senator Graham mentioned, instead of buying all the securities, now the government will just insure some of them.
And there's also a provision that if the government doesn't get its money back within five years, a fee is imposed on financial security companies. Isn't that a better deal for taxpayers?
KERRY: Well, it's very important — well, these — the four principal components of this deal, Chris, represent the exact four principles that Senator Obama laid out two weeks ago. They represent the exact principles that we put forward and almost agreed on last Thursday before politics entered into this.
Now, I agree with Lindsey. Let's go beyond that now. It is important to have everybody there. But those principles are number one. We wanted to protect the taxpayers.
We were not going to turn billions of dollars over to any institution connected with Wall Street, given the experience of what had happened without protecting taxpayers. We have done that in this.
Secondly, we were going to limit executive compensation. We weren't going to turn money over and have millions of dollars paid out to executives. That's been done.
Thirdly, there's a very important concept here about helping homeowners. There had been no talk about the homeowners. We want to keep people in their homes. This specifically helps to keep them there.
And finally, oversight. The administration came and said, "Just give us $800 billion." And we said, "No, not given this experience," so we're going to give first the 250. There'll then be a letter from the president requesting another 100, and then there's another 350, depending on how it goes.
So I think we have accountability. We have the principles that Senator Obama offered leadership on.
WALLACE: Well, you have brought the presidential campaign into this, and in fact, it was always a part of this.
Particularly, there was a lot of criticism, you know, Senator Graham, after John McCain suspended his campaign, went back to Washington, then changed his mind, but then came back here and worked the phones.
Now that we've got a deal, let me ask you, how big a role did John McCain play in doing this deal?
GRAHAM: I think it was decisive in regards to the House being involved. John was challenged about four days ago by Harry Reid to say, "If you don't support this proposal," the original Paulson proposal that was being tweaked, "there'll be no Democratic votes for it." If John McCain doesn't vote for it, the Democrats won't.
Two days of hearings go by where it's just pretty much chaos. John understands this thing is going nowhere. He comes back, and agreement is announced right when he gets back that didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing because 20 percent of the profits were going to be given to an organization like ACORN, and there was no insurance component, which...
WALLACE: We should point out ACORN is a left-wing organization that has been involved in housing...
WALLACE: ... and also in political organizing.
GRAHAM: It was a — it was a direction of money away from debt retirement into organizations that are not part of the solution. And there was no option, in reality, about insurance being used so that taxpayer dollars would not be used.
He went to the House, and here's what he said, John, "Guys, I've listened to you. You're making some really legitimate points that this deal is not good yet for the taxpayer. Let's make it better for the taxpayer, but don't go too far. You cannot sit this one out. Make it better. Don't go too far. Get in the room and negotiate."
And that's what he did, and that's what they did.
WALLACE: Senator Kerry, at least McCain was here. Barack Obama never intended to come back to Washington.
KERRY: Barack Obama was in constant touch with Secretary Paulson almost every single day, sometimes several times a day, for the last two weeks.
Barack Obama was the first person to speak and lay out at that meeting at the White House, for about seven or eight minutes, the entire parameters of what we have resolved.
John McCain, when offered the opportunity to speak, passed. He didn't speak till the very end and, when he spoke, did not offer a solution and did not say what he would support.
The fact is that on a Monday of about a week ago, John McCain said, "The fundamentals of our economy are strong." Within a few days, John McCain was suspending his campaign because of the greatest crisis since World War II.
He suspended his campaign, and it took him 22 hours to get from New York to Washington, a one-hour flight, had time to go do Katie Couric in an interview, had time to give a speech to the Clinton Millennium.
And when he got here, he wound up — I mean, end he was going to interrupt his campaign to come down and save the negotiations. Most people believe what he did was interrupt the negotiations to come down and save his campaign.
WALLACE: All right, let me...
KERRY: And he offered nothing...
WALLACE: I want to give the final word to Lindsey Graham, and then we're going to actually talk about the debate.
But go ahead.
GRAHAM: Here's the good news. We may be getting a deal, and the credit that can be shared is you maybe go to the bank, get a loan, buy a house, go back to school.
But here are the facts, and I'm not overselling anything. The fact is that the House Republicans were not in the mix at all. John didn't phone this one in. He came and actually did something Barack Obama did not do, went over to the House and sat down with the Republicans, talked with the Democratic leadership and said, "What are your concerns?"
He looked them in the eye. He actually listened to what they had to say. Then he tried to get everybody in a room finding a common solution. You can't phone something like this in. Thank God John came back. Thank God the Republican House...
WALLACE: Well, wait, wait...
KERRY: Can I offer what I think is really a more important perspective?
WALLACE: If it's very brief.
KERRY: Let's not — it will be very brief. The real difference here is the difference of their approaches on the economy. In the debate the other night, in an hour and a half, John McCain didn't mention the word "middle class."
WALLACE: May I? Because I'm about to — I'm about to get to that, so...
KERRY: All right.
WALLACE: ... let me ask the question, because that's — I wanted to get to the debate.
Before we get to the question of the economy, which we will, the early indication from polls are that the public, in these polls that were taken overnight, favored Obama, thought he did better.
According to a CBS News poll of uncommitted voters, 39 percent thought Obama won, 24 percent thought — preferred McCain, and 37 percent thought it was a tie.
And while voters thought that Obama did better on the economy and McCain did better on foreign policy, here was the bottom line. Let's put it up. McCain's rating on being prepared to be president didn't change. Obama had a 16-point jump on that same question.
Senator graham, McCain keeps saying that Obama is not ready to lead, but according to the — several polls, voters watching the debate thought he was.
GRAHAM: I think there's an 18-point difference between who is best able to do the job. We'll take that.
KERRY: Well, let me...
WALLACE: What you're saying is that even though Obama got more of a bump, there's still a lead?
GRAHAM: No, no, no. It's Sunday, and I'm tired. Senator Obama did well. Senator Obama helped himself, according to the polls.
WALLACE: You can't be tired on Sunday morning, sir.
KERRY: We've been working.
GRAHAM: Yeah, we have. Quite frankly, I thought he presented himself well, Senator Obama.
The difference between John and Senator Obama — Senator McCain and Senator Obama, I think was displayed — the depth of experience.
And Senator Obama kind of tangled himself up through the primary about some ideas that don't sound so good now, about sitting down with dictators and retrying the Iraq war in a way that really is not appropriate.
How do you end the war? We all know John and I voted for the beginning. How do you end it? At the end of the day, I thought what John had to offer — that he was better prepared to be president January 2009.
WALLACE: Let me ask you about that, Senator Kerry, because the fact was, as Senator graham pointed out, that although they thought that Obama did better, when it came to the question, "Who do you trust more on Iraq, who do you trust more on national security, who is better prepared to be president," people still prefer McCain.
KERRY: Yes, I understand that, Chris. But what's important is there are five weeks left here before the election.
GRAHAM: That's fair.
KERRY: And Barack Obama closed that gap very significantly on John McCain's home turf. This is not important for us to sit here and say who won, who didn't.
GRAHAM: That's right.
KERRY: You know what's important, is to look at the real difference between them. John McCain, I think, represented an old view of the world, and Barack Obama represents a 21st century view of how you make America safe, and I think that's what people began to see.
The test here is judgment. We're electing a president of the United States who will make the right decision. John McCain, with respect to Iraq, was a cheerleader for the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
John McCain was out there, even ahead of the Bush administration, saying that Saddam Hussein was creating in Iraq an assembly line for weapons for Al Qaida. He was saying that they were very aggressive in their creation of a nuclear program.
So the bottom line is Barack Obama got it right. Even Secretary Gates in the last days has said the real focus now is western Pakistan and Afghanistan, which Barack Obama, for a year, has been saying, and John McCain even today reluctantly says is a new focus of the war on terror.
WALLACE: But you wanted to talk about the economy. Let's...
KERRY: Well, I'll talk about both.
WALLACE: Well, do. So let's talk...
KERRY: I think they're important to leadership.
WALLACE: I understand. Let's talk about the economy, because...
WALLACE: ... there were some big differences on the economy in this debate. Jim Lehrer asked, "How would you lead the country out of the financial crisis?" And here was the exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: He has asked for $932 million of earmarked pork barrel spending, nearly $1 million for every day that he's been in the United States Senate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Earmarks account for $18 billion in last year's budget. Senator McCain is proposing $300 billion in tax cuts. Now, $18 billion is important. $300 billion is really important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Senator Graham, McCain kept talking about earmarks. Isn't that a narrow focus when you're talking about how to revitalize the entire economy?
GRAHAM: I think if you believe that earmarks is a narrow problem, you don't understand what's happened because of earmarks.
There are people in jail. Make the budget pass. How do you make the budget pass that grows every year? Here's what's in it for you. We're going to need your vote, pal. If you don't vote with us on the overall budget, you're not going to get your project.
So it does increase the size of government.
WALLACE: But, Senator Graham, earmarks...
GRAHAM: And you know what? It makes people mad as hell, too. One of the reasons Congress is at 15 percent is the way we spend their money. You want to change this country? You want to get people in America buying into real change? They've got to trust you.
Nobody is going to trust a bunch of politicians who waste their money. That's the biggest message John has to send.
WALLACE: But — but...
GRAHAM: If you won't buy in, Chris, you better start running this place more like a business and not waste $18 billion, $35 billion, or any of their money to get people to buy into the hard changes that are yet to come.
And of the two candidates, who do you really believe is going to shake this place up?
WALLACE: But let me ask you a question about that, Senator Graham. If earmarks are so bad, why did you ask for 71 projects totaling $305 million in the last fiscal year?
GRAHAM: I have been part of the problem. My earmarks have been authorized, number one. They're out there for you to look at. And I'm part of the problem.
I'd like to be part of the solution, because the good part of earmarks has been overwhelmed by the bad part. Let's just start over. Let's start over, because the $3 million to DNA — to bear studies in Montana, the $250 million bridge in Alaska for 50 people, is drowning out some of the good things I've done and John's done.
So I'm willing to start over, but there's one guy in this town who hasn't gotten a penny. I'm willing to follow his lead, because he's convinced me that the greater good would be achieved if we'd all just have a time-out on this.
WALLACE: Senator Kerry — and we're running out of time in this segment, but I want to address something that McCain went after Obama on, and that is proposing more than $800 billion in new spending.
Doesn't Obama have a government solution to every problem?
KERRY: No, absolutely not. If you look at his health care plan, which John McCain mischaracterized, calling it a government plan, you will see a plan that is entirely a market-based, market-oriented, free-choice plan, nobody mandated to do anything. So the answer is no, that's not true.
Secondly, if John McCain is so against government, you know, involvement in health care, does he vote against Medicare? That's a government plan. Does he vote against Medicaid? That's a government plan. Is he against veterans health care system? That's a government plan. So there's a lot of demagoguery here.
I'm going to finish this. You know, this whole earmark thing is demagoguery. We're all against earmarks that are put in in the dead of night that don't clear a committee. That's absolutely wrong, and everyone in Congress will vote to shut — in fact, we already have, said that shouldn't happen.
But you know, he got $150,000 for a Greenville community center. He got $150,000 for a Florence community center.
KERRY: I'll tell you what. Those are good projects. And the people in Florence and Greenville deserve them.
Sarah Palin asked for $3 million for DNA of seals in Alaska. I mean, let's cut out this game. $18 billion — John McCain offered a solution to the economy to freeze everybody's spending except for veterans and defense.
Now, guess what? He didn't ask those executives at the top to take a freeze. He didn't say that we would have no tax cut to the billionaires in our country. He didn't say the oil companies should give up their piece.
I think Barack Obama is the only person in that debate who talked about real people in America who can't pay their mortgages...
WALLACE: All right.
KERRY: ... can't pay their tuition, can't pay their health care, can't pay home heating costs. And John McCain has a hatchet...
WALLACE: Senator, I'm invoking cloture.
KERRY: ... or a scalpel...
WALLACE: I'm invoking cloture, and I apologize to you for attacking Lindsey Graham.
KERRY: Well, I just wanted...
WALLACE: No, no, I'm teasing. I'm teasing.
KERRY: ... I just wanted equal time, that's all.
GRAHAM: I deserved it.
WALLACE: We need to take a quick break here, but we have much more discuss, including this week's debate between Sarah Palin and Joe Biden. Back in a moment.
WALLACE: And we're back now with Senators Lindsey Graham and John Kerry.
In their debate, McCain and Obama also differed sharply, as you suggested, Senator Kerry, on foreign policy, especially whether to sit down without preconditions with hostile leaders like Iranian president Ahmadinejad. Let's watch that exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The notion that we would sit with Ahmadinejad and not say anything while he's spewing his nonsense and his vile comments is ridiculous. Nobody's even talking about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: So let me get this right. We sit down with Ahmadinejad, and he says, "We're going to wipe Israel off the face of the earth," and we say, "No, you're not?" Oh, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Now, as a kind of truth squad, one of the issues in the debate — and I don't quite know why it became so important — was whether what former secretary of state and McCain adviser Henry Kissinger had said, whether or not he supports no preconditions.
Let's put up on the screen — last week Kissinger said this. "I do not believe we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations."
Now, Senator Graham, Kissinger now says he's talking about at the secretary of state level, not at the presidential level, but he does support the concept, no conditions.
GRAHAM: Yeah. Ambassador Crocker has been talking to the Iranians in Iraq for quite a while. What started this? Senator Obama is trying to be president, running in the Democratic primary. It's music to the left's ears that — I'll sit down with anybody, I am not George Bush, you name a dictator, I'll go tomorrow to sit down with him without any conditions, because George Bush is stubborn and he won't talk to anybody, I am not stubborn, I am open-minded, I will sit down with anybody anywhere without conditions.
And that's silly. And it's caught up with him. And he's a nice guy, but that was a silly spot to be in. You can laugh if you'd like, John, but that's...
KERRY: Well, a nice guy. That's...
GRAHAM: ... not what you'd need to do as president.
KERRY: Please, Lindsey. He's much more than a nice guy.
GRAHAM: He did that in the primary to get an advantage over his opponents. He used the war against his opponents. Now he's said some things that make no sense in the primary and he's trying to explain and parse his way out of it.
In truth, if you would ever consider sitting down with the president of Iran without preconditions, what he said twice, you would cheapen this nation and elevate the dictator, and that is a major mistake on Obama's part.
WALLACE: Senator Kerry...
WALLACE: Wait, wait. No. Let me — let me...
KERRY: No, no.
WALLACE: ... ask the question. It will work better if I ask the question...
KERRY: All right.
WALLACE: ... and then you answer. Forget Henry Kissinger. You're the president of the United States. Ahmadinejad has shown capability of doing nothing other than vile rants.
WALLACE: What is the purpose — what is the realistic possibility of success to have the president of the United States sit down with someone like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?
KERRY: Well, it doesn't have to be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. First of all, if you heard Barack Obama clearly that night, he said and hinted very directly that it wouldn't be Ahmadinejad, because Ahmadinejad is not the most powerful guy in Iran.
WALLACE: So he's going to sit down with...
KERRY: No, no, no, no, no.
WALLACE: ... the Ayatollah Khamenei?
KERRY: Let me just finish. Let me — let me finish, please. Lindsey gets to finish. I want to finish.
Here's the deal. From the get-go here, from day one, Barack Obama made clear that he talked about adequate preparations for any such encounter.
And those preparations obviously involve either an ambassador, a back channel, a special envoy, a secretary of state, who would have laid the path for that sit-down. What he said was the principle here is what is important. He is prepared to engage and negotiate.
And this administration has not been, and John McCain has not been. In fact, George Bush today had — has already done the very thing Barack Obama has said he would do. George Bush sent William Burns, assistant secretary of state, to go to Geneva to sit down with the Iranians without precondition.
And the fact is — I mean, I sat with former president Khatami at a conference. We happened to be seated next to each other.
In the course of my conversation with him, as a United States senator and member of the Foreign Relations Committee, I must have heard six things that were opportunities to pursue on a diplomatic level that might have made a difference in what we're trying to do today.
Those are the kinds of things Barack Obama wants to do. And what he does is he reserves the right as president, which a president ought to, if he thinks he can make America safer and advance our interests, to sit down with any leader. That's smart.
And the policies that have stiff-armed Iran, stiff-armed North Korea, have led us to be less secure in the world, Chris. The fact is the administration is now sitting down with North Korea. They're doing the very thing I proposed in a debate with George Bush four years ago and he said, "Oh, no, no, no, we can't do that."
WALLACE: No, that's not true. You talked about unilateral — I don't want to go back to...
KERRY: I talked about bilateral...
WALLACE: You talked about unilateral...
KERRY: I talked about bilateral.
WALLACE: Right, bilateral between — and the fact is...
KERRY: And that's exactly what...
WALLACE: ... and the fact is it worked because we were in six- party talks and got the Chinese...
KERRY: There's nobody in the six-party talks who will tell you that. They always said, the six-party...
WALLACE: You don't think the Chinese...
KERRY: The Chinese will...
WALLACE: We should not — let me just say, I don't think we want to re-litigate 2004.
KERRY: Chris, I'm telling you right now, the Chinese will tell you that the United States was the essential person and party to have to deal face-to-face with North Korea. And that's why Chris went to Paris and sat down with them.
WALLACE: I think the Chinese had a big role to play in this, which is what the president was saying. In any case...
KERRY: Well, they always have a role, but you didn't have to reduce it to only talking through six parties, which we did for five years.
WALLACE: In any case, let's move on to the next debate.
GRAHAM: I don't want to interrupt.
WALLACE: That's right. I'm giving you more time to wake up, Senator.
The next big campaign event is the vice presidential debate Thursday between Joe Biden and Sarah Palin, and both have had a rough couple of weeks. Let's take a look at Joe Biden's greatest hits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Guess what? China's building two every week, two dirty coal plants, and it's polluting the United States. It's causing people to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on television and didn't just talk about the — you know, the princes of greed. He said, "Look, here's what happened."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Senator Kerry, opposing clean coal, putting FDR as president in 1929 on television — what's the matter with Joe Biden?
KERRY: Listen, when you're running like a bandit, everybody knows that sometimes you have small slips of the tongue, and those are small slips of the tongue.
And the fact is Joe Biden has voted for clean coal technology his entire career. He supports clean coal technology. And Barack Obama is going to put a huge amount of money — I think we've got something like $2 billion slated to go into clean coal technology.
WALLACE: But isn't it going to be a problem in the debate if he forgets that he's for clean coal technology?
KERRY: I think Joe Biden — listen, Chris, please. Let's wait and see in the debate. I think what you're going to — the important thing in this debate is that Joe Biden is one of the most experienced and one of the most capable people with respect to national security and foreign affairs.
And this is a very dangerous world we're living in, made more dangerous by the policies that George Bush has pursued and that John McCain has supported. Hamas is more powerful. Hezbollah is more powerful. Iran is more powerful. North Korea has four times the ability to build weapons.
I mean, you have to quantify this, and it's all happened on the George Bush-John McCain watch. I believe that what you need is the experience you'll see with a Joe Biden and, you know, he's going to talk about the real differences between Barack Obama's leadership and...
WALLACE: Meanwhile, Governor Palin sat down with Katie Couric, Senator Graham, and she explained why living in Alaska, she has a better understanding of Russia. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: Putin rears his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America. Where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border.
It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to — to our state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Senator Graham, what the heck was she talking about?
GRAHAM: Trying to show that she lives near one of the biggest threats we have in the world, Russia, run by Putin, who John said, "When I looked in his eyes, I saw KGB."
But the truth is Joe has said some things about FDR being on T.V. He's right. These are human beings. She'll get better. She's very talented at what she's been asked to do in the past. She's been a really good governor.
She filed an ethics complaint against her attorney general, who was a Republican, with a Democrat. She knows energy. And she shares John's world view.
Joe Biden is truly our dear friend, but Joe wanted to partition Iraq at a time when John wanted more troops to save the place from falling apart. If we'd adopted Joe's plan, we would have gone from losing one war to four wars. It would have been a nightmare.
Joe voted against the first Gulf War. So you're going to have an opportunity here to understand where these teams will take the country.
WALLACE: But let me...
GRAHAM: Let me finish, please. I haven't said a whole lot.
The McCain-Palin team is going to take the country in a fundamentally different direction on taxing and spending and reform.
Who better to take on Wall Street than the guy who took on campaign finance corruption, who took on the corruption of Alaska, Sarah Palin and John McCain? If you really want things to change, you better bring in agents of change.
Barack Obama is looking back into the '60s for his tax and spend policies, '70s for his energy policies, and '30s...
WALLACE: Wait, wait.
GRAHAM: ... for his trade policies.
WALLACE: Let me — let me actually get back to Sarah Palin, which is what we were talking about.
GRAHAM: She's going to have to show she's a valuable part of this team, that she's capable of the job, that she shares John's philosophy...
WALLACE: But what do you make of conservative — what do you make of conservative columnists who are now saying she was a good reform governor and is a good reform governor of Alaska, but she is showing or, to them, demonstrating that perhaps she is not up to the job of being a potential commander in chief?
And some are even suggesting she should drop off the ticket.
GRAHAM: How about this? Well, number one, they have no idea what they're talking about. If we're not going to judge Joe by one sound bite in one interview, which is fair to Joe, and we're not going to take a mistake that he's made and say that that's a death-defying blow, let's don't do it for her.
We're going to have a debate for 90 minutes, and she's going to have to do a couple of things, that — I understand where the country needs to go under John McCain, and I can help him get there, here's my experience and here's what I add to the ticket.
And Joe's going to have to explain how he helps Barack Obama take the country where he would like it to go. And the reason we're going to win is where McCain-Palin will take the country is a different place fundamentally on foreign policy and domestic policy, a place that I think where the American people want to go.
Obama and Biden are very fine men who are very liberal and I don't think understand the threats that we face, because if you didn't understand you couldn't lose in Iraq and you didn't understand the need for the surge, and you would still vote against the surge, you're too stubborn to be president.
KERRY: No, Chris, I've got to have a chance. Come on, quick. I'll be very quick. Having a better plan...
WALLACE: 30 seconds.
KERRY: Having a better plan to make America safe, knowing how to fight a more effective war on terror, knowing that the center of the war is in Afghanistan and Pakistan, not Iraq, understanding how to put this country back into a place where other countries look to our leadership is not liberal. That's conservative.
And it's strengthening America. And that's what Barack Obama and Joe Biden are going to do.
WALLACE: Senator Kerry, Senator Graham, I want to thank you both for coming in and occasionally letting me have control.
KERRY: You've got to understand how it works, Chris.
WALLACE: Evidently. Please come back.
GRAHAM: I want your fee to be docked for this show.
WALLACE: And we'll — and I'll share my hosting fees with the two of you.