Davis: No distinction between campaign funds, personal funds
Lanny Davis, attorney for Michael Cohen, discusses campaign finance law on 'The Story with Martha MacCallum' after Cohen pleads guilty in federal court.
This is a rush transcript from "The Story," August 22, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MCCALLUM, HOST: So, breaking tonight, how an illegal immigrant slipped through the cracks and bypassed our systems, living and working under the radar for years before being charged this week with the brutal murder of this beautiful young woman on the right-hand side of your screen who we have all come to know over the past month. Her name was Mollie Tibbetts.
Cristhian Rivera faced to judge today where he was slapped to the $5 million bond after he admitted to police that he had followed Mollie on her daily jog down a rural farm road before he claims he blacked out and says he later came to with Mollie's blood-soaked body in the back of his truck.
So, how did he manage to get here and go undetected for years? Earlier today, his equally shocked employer spoke out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANE LANG, MANAGER, YARRABEE FARMS: The individual did provide a state- issued photo I.D. and a social security card. We screen every applicant through the Social Security Administration social security number verification service. We ran that information through the verification service and the information came back verifies.
What we learned in the last 24 hours is that our employee was not who he said he was. And just within the last four hours, we have come to learn that the Social Security Administration employment verification service is not the same as E-verify.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Fox News Correspondent Matt Finn has been on this story throughout, and he joins us live tonight in Iowa with the very latest breaking news from there this evening. Hi, Matt.
MATT FINN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. Well, we heard from the employer there, of Rivera, and they raised a lot of questions when they initially said that they used the federal E-verify system to screen Rivera, then they retracted their statements today saying that they did not. And he's not who they thought he was.
And developing late today, a federal immigration official also tells Fox News that Rivera never submitted a request for DACA and that there is no record that he has any immigration status in this country.
Earlier today, 24-year-old Christian Rivera was led into the Poweshiek County Court. You might hear the bells in that court behind me. He appeared in stripes prison garb and shackles.
I was able to ask Rivera if he killed Mollie Tibbetts, and he did not respond. He remain stone-faced. In court, the defense said the case has become so political, they wanted the media banned.
Saying even the president has commented on this case. The judge denied the request to ban the media today, but there could be a ruling to ban media at future proceedings. Representatives from the Mexican Consulate were in court today, afterwards, we spoke to them. They say that they feel that Rivera was treated fairly and that the translations were done well.
Today, Fox News sat down again with a representative from the lead investigative agency in this case, the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation. Rick Rahn tells Fox News that the investigation into Rivera might not be over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our investigators probing whether or not a sexual assault or molestation of any kind occurred.
RICK RAHN, SPECIAL AGENT, DIVISION OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, IOWA: Well, let me revert back to my last answer. If there's any evidence to support any additional charges, then there'll be some additional charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FINN: And Martha, another political tire twist in this case. The Lang family owns that farm where Rivera worked. The father, Craig Lang, recently unsuccessfully ran as a Republican for the Secretary of Agriculture here in the state of Iowa. Martha.
MACCALLUM: Matt, thank you very much. Joining me now to weigh in, David Bossie, president of Citizens United. Jessica Tarlov, senior director of research for bustled.com. Both our Fox News new contributors. Welcome to both of you.
Obviously, this is an unbelievable tragedy. And we wait for forensic analysis and as you heard from the investigator there when that comes in there may indeed be more charges for this person. He's an illegal immigrant. And now, this is being made into a political statement.
Let me just play the lawyer that our producer on the ground was able to get some -- this from lawyer Allan Richards. Listen to what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLAN RICHARDS, ATTORNEY TO CRISTHIAN RIVERA: And the law includes presumption of innocence, and due process before a critical mistake of saying the outrageous thing that sad and sorry, Trump have been saying. And he said it about this case which there's no premise in the history of our country, where a man in that position, a sad and sorry Trump should even be commenting on them until we get past this presumption of innocence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Jessica, what's the concern about what President Trump said?
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think that the concern is that we're going to get into the conversation that we have already gotten into not yet on this panel but in the public discourse about it where President Trump demonizes an entire class of people, then the left gets defensive about it.
And then, throughout the statistics that do defend the legal immigrants in this country is not being predominantly violent, actually committing fewer crimes than natural-born citizens. And we end up where we began. This is what happens when an illegal immigrant commits a crime and this is what happens when we have a mass shooting by a white man.
MACCALLUM: Here is what I don't get about that. You know, if this were a person from Colorado who had robbed the bank, right? We're going to report this is a person from Colorado who has robbed the bank. In this case, this is a person who was born in Mexico, and it's in the country illegally.
TARLOV: Yes.
MACCALLUM: And I don't understand why as the reporters even saying that is considered controversial to something. Why? Why would that be?
TARLOV: Oh, I don't think that's controversial whatsoever, and I want it certainly as someone who's here to commentate on this one to get to the bottom of know exactly the truth about this person. There were -- you know, the lawyer had said, he wasn't even here illegally, it was extremely confusing as to what's going on. You need the facts to access any case.
Fundamentally, this is a tragedy just like Kate Steinle's death was a tragedy. And it is something that people, no matter your political stripes have to contend with that this can happen in our country because of our -- with the way our immigration system works.
MACCALLUM: David.
DAVID BOSSIE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Unfortunately, this lawyer tried to confuse the issues today. And this lawyer's client led the police to her body. This is an unbelievable tragedy that the American people are revolted by and it crystallizes this issue once again that border security is our national security.
The President of the United States, he made a promise to the American people. He is going to support, he is going to close the borders, he's going to build the wall, and he is going to secure the American people.
This is part of why he did that. This is part of why he won. The American people have rejected more of this, more blood on politician's hands. He has said, and he offered a deal on DACA. The Democrats want this issue politically more than they want a solution and that's a fact.
So, I -- if I was advising this president, I would say tell Mitch McConnell to go nuclear. You have to say this is a national security issue, a simple majority of the Senate to pass border security.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean --
TARLOV: Well, Democrats did offer the president a deal, as well with his border wall money that for the record --
BOSSIE: No, no, no, they did not.
TARLOV: Of course, they did.
BOSSIE: They offered -- they offered pennies on the dollar.
TARLOV: That's not true.
BOSSIE: It is true, that's what the president rejected. That the president wants a fully funded wall. $20 or $25 billion.
TARLOV: That's $25 billion. And --
BOSSIE: And that's -- you know what -- how many more of Mollie Tibbetts and Kate Steinle do we need before we spend the money?
(CROSSTALK)
TARLOV: Say, but this is the -- So this is the --
MACCALLUM: Go ahead, what?
TARLOV: We're having the fight that happens every single time here.
BOSSIE: And we should -- and we should.
MACCALLUM: Yes, but I think Americans are so sick and tired of this fight.
TARLOV: Yes.
MACCALLUM: I think they want a solution.
BOSSIE: They want a solution and that was --
MACCALLUM: They want a secure border and they don't understand why members of Congress? Because every one of them makes this -- they make this political because they're not willing to compromise on both sides of this issue to get a solution.
Because the fact of the matter is that if this young man wasn't here illegally, that young woman would be heading to sophomore year at the University of Iowa. But she is not.
TARLOV: But it -- but it also doesn't mean that we needed a force and ICE force that has been emboldened to go even further than before. It doesn't mean that we need a president who talks about illegal immigrants in the way that he does.
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: This effort -- this --
TARLOV: We don't need comments like criminals and rapist, and --
BOSSIE: He is a criminal, he may be a rapist.
TARLOV: This person is, but the entire group that's what this president does.
BOSSIE: We -- this crime, it crystallizes the reason that we need ICE even more. We need a bigger broader more bold ICE organization. And that's what this president's going to bring forward in coming days. I could see him using this to get what he needs.
And I would say to Senate Majority Leader McConnell, let's go to 51 votes on this. This is a national security issue, and we're done talking about it.
TARLOV: What is that 51 votes accomplished, did you -- what?
MACCALLUM: Pass that, Jessica.
TARLOV: What do you need the votes for?
BOSSIE: We need the votes to pass -- to pass immigration reform which would the --
(CROSSTALK)
TARLOV: With comprehensive immigration reform, is there a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million (INAUDIBLE).
MACCALLUM: The president offered that -- the president offer that.
BOSSIE: The president offered that. I would take that off the table. I want --
TARLOV: No, I'm asking David about this magic bill that has your $25 billion for border security when there even a number of Republicans in Border States that say that a wall is not the answer to this. I think we both agree we need comprehensive immigration reform. And Martha, you're completely --
MACCALLUM: I think both sides should get this.
TARLOV: Both sides say that, and then they back off.
BOSSIE: I think we need to get rid of sanctuary cities, we need to get rid of a broken lottery system, a broken -- this thing is totally broken across the board. And we'll let's get to what we need to do and let's build the wall, let's build it now. We could talk about to the other things later.
TARLOV: But there's strong disagreement on building the wall.
BOSSIE: No, let's build the wall and let's talk about those other things later.
TARLOV: Well, we'll talk in the green room.
MACCALLUM: Now, that's going to work, we got to leave it there. Thank you guys.
TARLOV: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Coming up next, Michael Cohen's attorney Lanny Davis' first response to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AINSLEY EARHARDT, FOX NEWS HOST: Did you know about payment?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Later on I know, later on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EARHARDT: Did you know about payment?
TRUMP: Later on I know, later on. But you have to understand, Ainsley, what he did. And they weren't taken out of campaign finance. That's a big thing. That's a much bigger thing. Did they come out of the campaign? They didn't come out of the campaign. They came from me. But, they didn't come out of a campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, President Trump insisting that those payments by his former attorney Michael Cohen to a pair of women did not come from his presidential campaign.
Cohen pled guilty in federal court yesterday to charges that include two counts of campaign finance violations. One of the big questions, as we move forward, is what impact might this have on the Mueller probe if Michael Cohen continues to expand his memory and talk to them.
Earlier, I spoke with Michael Cohen's attorney, Lanny Davis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM: So, a couple of things -- you know, to clear up. You heard what the president said there. He has said two different versions of that in the -- when he spoke to Ainsley, he said that he didn't know until later. And yet, we know from the tape that your client made surreptitiously that they discussed it before the payment was made.
But, I want to go to the larger question of whether or not it was a campaign finance violation. You seem to be assuming that it was. Michael Cohen said it was, but others are saying that there's no way to connect the two in a clean direct way.
LANNY DAVIS, LAWYER OF MICHAEL COHEN: Well, I don't know who's called others but let me at least start with --
MACCALLUM: Well, let me just quote somebody for you then and then I'll let you answer. Former Election Commission Chairman Hans von Spakovsky said this is not a violation because this was not a campaign-related offense. This is the former head of the FEC Commission. He says Cohen pled guilty to it, Cohen paid it, but then Cohen was reimbursed by Trump and a candidate can spend as much of their money as they want to on their campaign.
DAVIS: OK, well it's perfectly appropriate for someone who doesn't know facts to disagree with federal prosecutors who have investigated the facts and I respect anybody's opinion but there's only one law, there aren't two laws. And the law doesn't make a distinction between money that from a campaign that is for the principle purpose of politics which is what the prosecutors found. There's no distinction between as Mr. Trump said campaign funds or personal funds. Both are subject to one limits and two disclosure. Neither of those occurred for the very reason that Mr. Trump didn't want anybody to know about $130,000 of hush money to Miss Daniels and he asked Mr. Cohen according to the prosecutors --
MACCALLUM: Lanny, you make it sound like it's very easy to make that connection and we all -- we saw that Michael Cohen pled that there was a connection. In fact, you said yesterday that he used the exact words that the prosecutors told him to use in terms of -- at the direction of the President those payments were made to influence the campaign of 2016. So those are the words that Michael Cohen used when he pled guilty. If he had not agreed to use those words, would he have been able to get the sentence that he got or have made this plea at all, or was it incumbent upon him using those words?
DAVIS: Well, let's talk about the facts behind the words. I don't know what would have, could have, should have been. There was no deal he got no lower jail time. He's going to jail. He pled guilty.
MACCALLUM: Federal Campaign Finance law is not nearly as cut and dry as you suggest it is. In many ways, it's almost like insider trading law. It's very, very difficult to prove where the money came from and whether or not it was a campaign -- whether or not it was campaign funds that were used or donations to the campaign.
DAVIS: Do you mind if I interview you since you've got the answers, I'll ask you a couple of questions.
MACCALLUM: Absolutely.
DAVIS: If somebody makes -- thank you, because that's probably a better way to for this interview to be conducted. If I asked you why did you donate a $130,000 to Miss Daniels after she threatened to divulge an affair with a porn star two weeks from the election, would a juror possibly draw the inference that it was related to the outcome of the election?
MACCALLUM: They could if they could draw that inference. Absolutely, they could. They wouldn't necessarily. And that that's what I'm saying, that something --
DAVIS: They wouldn't necessarily --
MACCALLUM: They wouldn't necessarily --
DAVIS: Correct.
MACCALLUM: It depends. There would be a lot of reasons -- you know, I don't want to -- I don't want to split here with you --
DAVIS: I have a second for you.
MACCALLUM: But I but I just want to say that there are other legal experts who believe that this is not as cut and dry as you seem to think it is. We all heard what Michael Cohen said in court, but whether in terms of how it relates to the President and the campaign, you know, it I think this is based on other people's legal assessment of whether or not it says cut and dry as you say it is. But you know, obviously, his credibility is a question. I mean, he lied about his taxes, he owes the U.S. government about 1.4 million in taxes according to the prosecutor who spoke yesterday. He lied about the bank situation, about the taxi, so why should people take him at his word now?
DAVIS: Well, I wouldn't ask anyone to take him at his word. The prosecutors developed a case with evidence of members of his campaign. If you read the entire information put out by the prosecutors, members of his campaign, members of the Trump Organization all document, that the money was paid right before the election and the prosecutors brought charges that Mr. Cohen was motivated for political reasons to pay hush money and that Mr. Trump is named as the person who directed -- that's their word -- and coordinated -- that's their word. Now you can argue about how jurors would come out. I completely agree with you. I never used the words cut and dried. I believe you did twice, I didn't. I said reasonable inference. Inferences can be debated, that's what juries are all about.
MACCALLUM: All right, we will follow it closely, Lanny. Thank you for your time tonight. Good to have you with us, good, spirited discussion. We'll see you next time.
DAVIS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: You bet. So after being blasted by his critics for straining the special relationship with the United Kingdom, the British appear to be coming back to have discussions here in Washington and to talk to President Trump. The U.K. Foreign Secretary joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So it seems like just yesterday that the President was in the U.K. and he was ridiculed by his critics for blowing up our special relationship with our biggest ally the United Kingdom after he suggested Teresa may is planned for Brexit might not go far enough. But now, it looks like the Brits are coming back to the table looking perhaps for a good deal with President Trump. Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt joins me here live in studio from England in just a moment but first Chief National Correspondent Ed Henry with how we got to this point.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Martha. It's interesting what a difference a month makes. The conventional wisdom back in July was that maybe President Trump was meddling in British politics, maybe he was blowing up key alliances like NATO, but now even the foreign minister is pointing out that President Trump's foreign policy seems to make some sense. The President took a lot of heat as you noted at the start of his visit to the U.K. for declaring a trade deal might be hard to do because Prime Minister Theresa May was pushing a soft Brexit plan that would not really cut ties with the European Union as promised.
The President adding to the Sun newspaper at the time that a ousted foreign secretary Boris Johnson who had just resigned to protest that Brexit plan might make a good Prime Minister, left out of the massive criticism of the President that followed is he may have been a little salty over the fact that he was greeted by that giant balloon known as Trump baby as part of hundreds of thousands of protesters in London. And the man who replaced Johnson as foreign secretary, you just noted Jeremy Hunt said at the time he understood the President's style telling you in an interview that the President likes deal. So if you do the deal, he'll be your friend, if you don't he'll take you on. But it doesn't mean he'll end the special relationship with the U.K. over a short-term disagreement, an idea that much of the mainstream media here back at home seemed to miss.
TRUMP: Well, I'm not pitting one against the other. I'm just saying I think it'd be a great Prime Minister. I think he's got what it takes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Publicly the President attempted a show of unity but it was obvious the U.S. is not seeing eye-to-eye with its closest allies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now with Teresa May, you see the opposite. Donald Trump is essentially forbidden from the City of London. He's probably scared away by a giant balloon depicting a crying baby Trump but it's also because Teresa May really doesn't want him there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump attacked NATO, said that the European Union was a foe, embarrassed Teresa May, the special relationship bitterly undermined over his remarks about Brexit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Trump is a much better deal breaker than he is a deal maker so far in his presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A fire thrower now stepping into a political tinderbox with Teresa May's government disintegrating it. But if May hoped for a hand to sell her plan, she's not quite getting it.
JAKE TAPPER, HOST, CNN: And what's your response to President Trump's attempt to clean up it today?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: A reference there to the fact that despite all the hand-wringing, the President actually attended a joint news conference with Prime Minister May in which he declared the bond between the two nations is indispensable. In fact, Jeremy hunt this week lavishing praise on the President telling Axios that the President is right, that tariffs are needed to rebalance the world economy and that global institutions like NATO need to be reformed. And oh, by the way, Hunt agrees with the President it appears that Johnson might be a good future Prime Minister. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Well, ask him about that. Ed, thank you very much for joining me.
Now, U.K. Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt, good to see you, Secretary.
JEREMY HUNT, FOREIGN SECRETARY, UNITED KINGDOM: Good evening, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Thank you for being here. The last time we spoke you had been in your position for just about 48 hours.
HUNT: That's right.
MACCALLUM: And as you saw in Ed's piece, there was so much criticism about how the President was destroying relationships on that trip with the E.U. and with the U.K. Is that true?
HUNT: No. And with this President, you get a lot of fireworks. He's pretty good at that but I think you have to look at the substance and actually one of the things that happened as a result of that trip was that we had a good discussion with the President about the plight of the white helmets in Syria. And after that measures were taken, the U.K., the U.S., Israel and other allies working together and we got those very, very brave people out of Syria. We saved their lives. And the reason we do that is because we don't agree on everything.
I mean, we don't agree with the President's position of tariffs on steel and aluminum which is affecting British companies, but fundamentally we share values and fundamentally we want a world in which democracy, freedom, human rights are respected. We want that for our children, our grandchildren going forward. So that's why we can work together.
MACCALLUM: When you look at the tariff question, let's start there because the President basically laid it on the table this summer when he was there. He said, well you know, if I can't work with the U.K., I'll work with the E.U. Whoever gives us the better deal is who we want to deal with. So are there carve-outs in those tariffs that you have -- that you have been able to achieve and where does that stand?
HUNT: Well, when we met the President, we explained in quite a lot of detail that the proposal that we made to the European Union for our free trade agreement which is after all our biggest market is right on our doorstep is one that would allow us to do a very ambitious free trade deal with the U.S. and that's what we wanted. That's what the president is enthusiastic to do and I had good discussions about that today at the White House so we think it's possible. And I think the important thing is that you know, right now we're in a world where there's a lot of instability, a lot of threats to the -- to the international order that we've all grown up with and you need countries like Britain and America to stand together.
And one of the things I did today which I will remember for a very long time was I met some very brave American diplomats who were expelled from Moscow because the United States stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Britain when we had a chemical weapons attack on our soil, it expelled 60 diplomats. And you remember when your friends do something like that, and if we're going to keep the world safe then countries like Britain and America that share so many values, we have to stand together.
MACCALLUM: Let's get to your politics for just the last minute that we have together. Is Teresa May going to face a vote of no-confidence particularly in the fall? And you did speak out just as the President did and basically suggested that Boris Johnson would make a good prime minister?
HUNT: Well, I just said that you shouldn't underestimate Boris. Theresa may is our prime minister and she's doing a fantastic job. And you know, so many--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: But she is saying he has brought incredible change to the United Kingdom?
HUNT: Well, he has. He led the Brexit campaign. But you know, no one should underestimate the resilience of Theresa May. She is the right person to be our prime minister for now and for a very long time.
Because this is someone who know how to be tough, and that's cool. But she knows how to negotiate a deal and that's what she is doing now with the European Union, that's our big priority. But she also understands the importance of this friendship that we have that goes back 70 years with the United States.
MACCALLUM: Do you expect a state visit for President Trump to the U.K. anytime soon?
HUNT: We would love to welcome him. You know, he's a great friend of Britain and we will make him very welcome.
MACCALLUM: OK. Thank you very much. Good to see you again.
HUNT: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Jeremy Hunt. So still had to come up the reigning Miss America Cara Mund comes out blasting the organization alleging that she was controlled and manipulated, silenced and bullied by the leadership.
Now former Miss Americas they are coming to her defense and I speak exclusively with two of them. Coming up, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA BARAQUIO GREY, FORMER MISS AMERICA: We did not think it would turn out this way. That one person would try to single-handedly break down a 97- year-old institution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: More on this story tonight as at least 20 former Miss America winners are now banding together to demand big changes from their organization's leadership. There are allegations of bullying and mistreatment surfacing from reigning title holder Cara Mund.
Mund airing her grievances in a letter. Writing quote, "Our chair and CEO has systematically silenced me, reduced me, marginalized me and essentially erased me in my role of Miss America in subtle and not-so-subtle ways on a daily basis."
I spoke with two former Miss America's who were among those defending her. Angela Baraquio-Grey and Caressa Cameron-Jackson. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM: Caressa, let me start with you, what is the major grievance here that's being expressed, what was done wrong on the part of the board and the chair Gretchen Carlson?
CARESSA CAMERON-JACKSON, FORMER MISS AMERICA: So I wish there was one thing that I could cite but I think Cara's letter is the tipping point to a lot of things that have been happening over the past several months.
That began with the states asking to see the contract that the new Miss America is going to sign. Fiduciary responsibilities, lack of transparencies and taking stakeholders' words and suggestions into play like they were promised.
And so the bullying behavior that has also ensued not only on the former Miss America front and how Gretchen has dealt with us, but now finally hearing about it from Cara, that's kind of the tipping point where we are like, you know what? Enough is enough.
MACCALLUM: All right. Well, Carlson responded released a statement that she denies that there was any bullying or any trying to silence Cara Mund. She said the organization lost $75,000 in scholarship in scholarship money. So Angela, what's your response to that?
GREY: I want to know who offered that $75,000 in scholarship, because that name was never released. And first of all, we really shouldn't be the one sitting here as former Miss America speaking. Carol Mund should be doing all TV appearances. Not Gretchen Carlson, not myself, not Caressa, not Theresa.
But we are only here because our voice is the voice for Cara. And Cara actually sent all the former Miss America a private e-mail. She did not letter -- e-mail a letter of grievance because she tried to speak to board members and she was silenced and told not to speak and keep it in the family.
Which to me, as a principal and as a leader of a private Catholic school and nonprofit, by the way, I know that there are grievance policies that should be in place and she wasn't able to get her grievances across.
MACCALLUM: Understood. But Caressa, you know, just to continue to get to the bottom of it, can you give some examples of what you think is wrong with the organization and why you would like to see these people removed?
I know that 23 states, I believe state organizations have also called for the removal of these individuals, so clearly, there are some specific grievances. If you could, you know, sort of give people at home a sense of some examples?
JACKSON: Yes. So there have been some dictatorial changes made to the organization, specifically people are thinking about the swimsuit competition that has been removed.
And that was removed because the board of directors voted for it to be removed based on the information that was given to them by Gretchen and Regina that we would lose potential sponsorship and our on-air partner if we continue with the swimsuit portion of the competition.
We found out that wasn't the truth. When the state has asked for contracts and to see things in regarding the spending and all of that, they've been denied over and over again.
So there's just been a lack of transparency and all the things that were originally promised to us that we were so hopeful for when Gretchen took the seat. As a sister and as someone who has lived under the crown we expected more from her.
And so we feel like, along with Gretchen and Regina and the board they are all complacent and allowing this kind of behavior to continue and so we believe that what's best for the organization at this point is for them to step aside and allow us to move forward in a better light.
MACCALLUM: Angela, one of the biggest issues--
GREY: Martha--
MACCALLUM: -- that when people look at this is, you know, whether or not the pageant is still viable, whether or not it's still relevant in the world that we live in today.
GREY: We wouldn't be covering this on Fox News right now on prime time on your show if it weren't relevant. So Cara has really been a voice for so many women. The contestants now that are going to Atlantic City or who the focus should be on. The 51 contestants are scared to death.
What I'm worried about is 30 states are totally against this leadership. They have zero confidence. Twenty one Miss America's -- 22 started, now there's 30. There are 21 Miss America that are calling for the full board resignation and 20,000 people in a petition that have signed and they are not able to get off unless the board either votes off the two and then steps off and resigns gracefully, or there is a coup.
But that can't happen. So really the power is in the board of director's hands right now and sadly, it's a difficult decision because two former Miss Americas are on that board and the chair just happens to be a former Miss America that we voted in and we apologize for putting her in because we did not think it would turn out this way.
That one person would try to single-handedly break down a 97-year-old institution. So Miss America is relevant as you can see from all the accomplished women that have come out and spoken. Carol Mund included, our current Miss America.
MACCALLUM: All right. Ladies, thank you very much. As you say the contests is coming up soon and we'll watch and see how all of this go there. You say they are terrified a number of these women so we hope they will continue to speak out. Thank you for being--
(CROSSTALK)
GREY: We need to do something now. Absolutely.
MACCALLUM: Thank you very.
GREY: Thank you, Martha.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM: Coming up next, the stunning rise and fall of former Patriots star Aaron Hernandez. His lawyer, Jose Baez here to tell his story, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aaron Hernandez is accused of killing semipro football player Odin Lloyd, blasting him in the chest, in the side and in the back.
Hours after the cops left the cuffs on him this morning and walked him from his mansion, the Pats announced, Hernandez is off our team.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So verdict unanimous. The sentence is automatic, a life without parole in state prison.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury deliberated roughly 40 hours and found him not guilty of the most serious charges against him. Many charges lodged against him by prosecutors who said he was responsible for the deaths of two men who were shot to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now just five days later, stunning news that the former New England Patriots is dead. Aaron Hernandez was discovered hanged in his cell at Souza-Baranowski Correctional Center just after 3 a.m.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: what a story. A stunning fall from grace for former New England Patriots star Aaron Hernandez, the former tight end once played in a Super Bowl alongside Tom Brady, raking in a $41 million contract when he was drafted by the Patriots. But he was charged and convicted of first-degree murder soon after. And then tragically, took his own life in prison last year.
So now a new book by his lawyer is depicting the turmoil in Hernandez's final year. Here now is Jose Baez, author of, "Unnecessary Roughness, Inside the Trial and Final Days of the Aaron Hernandez." Jose, good to have you here.
JOSE BAEZ, AUTHOR, UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: You have -- you are well known obviously for representing Casey Anthony who a lot of people believed was guilty. A lot of people believe that Aaron Hernandez was guilty in the death of Odin Lloyd.
We have video here of his mother weeping and holding his bloodied shirt. The car that was rented that was brought there, was rented by Aaron Hernandez and he was at the scene. Why do you believe he didn't do it?
BAEZ: Well, because three people identified him as being someplace else and three other independent witnesses identify the person that was actually in the car as having long hair with corn rows.
That's not Aaron Hernandez, I think the evidence was overwhelming that he was innocent and that's why the jury acquitted him. So, and just to clear that up, I didn't represent him in the first case.
MACCALLUM: Right.
BAEZ: We represented him in--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: But the acquittal was in the second case for the two murders.
BAEZ: Correct.
MACCALLUM: I'm talking about the first case in the death of Odin Lloyd which he was convicted and sent to prison for the rest of his life.
BAEZ: Yes, I have a reasonable doubt that he was guilty on that case. Because I think, well, what a lot of people don't know was he was prosecuted under what's called the joint venture theory which means the prosecutor doesn't know who pulled the trigger.
There were three individuals that were there. Four men went in and three came out. The other two had extensive criminal records, and based on what I've seen, I thought that there was a reasonable doubt in that case.
Now I didn't represent him there so I'm not as intimately knowledge and involved with that case, so that's all I can say, is that I have a reasonable doubt that he committed that. I know he didn't commit the second case.
MACCALLUM: Let me ask you this. You know, he is a complicated person, obviously enormously talented on the football field. But also he was a troubled guy with a lot of issues.
He was picked very low in the draft, and some people believed that it was because of that because people didn't necessarily want to take him on. But you have a soft spot for him based on your relationship with him in prison.
BAEZ: I do. I think Aaron was somebody that's completely misunderstood and that's what my book is really a different view of him. We know the story line. Story lines has been told a million times. What this book is that it shows a different perspective of him.
I got to know him very well not only by being with him but by also reading thousands and thousands of text messages. He was the type of person that couldn't say no to people if someone needed something or wanted something. He was a kind individual that would always -- he was a big kid, a big goofy kid, nothing like the gangster thug that people are trying to portray him as, or ultimately did portray him as. You can't tell a book by its cover and this cover was pretty hard.
MACCALLUM: It's complicated. You have a lawsuit against the NFL on behalf of his daughter.
BAEZ: Yes, I do.
MACCALLUM: Why, what are you accusing them of?
BAEZ: This is the -- this is a lawsuit for loss of consortium for his daughter. This still stems from the issue of CTE for which the NFL deliberately withheld from its players the information that they had that shows that tackle football and head injuries, repeated head injuries cause the severe brain damage which is the direct linked to suicide for which he died.
MACCALLUM: So and no link to his violence to the initial murder, the first murder, you don't think he murdered because of CTE?
BAEZ: I don't because I have that reasonable doubt. But my knowledge and I say this with the disclaimer, my knowledge on that case is limited. So all I can say is based on looking at the case -- you know, I'm a lawyer and I look at it from a certain perspective.
And the perspective that I see it in is, even if the prosecutor -- the prosecutor can't even tell you that he pulled the trigger. So you have to have some doubt there. His overt acts are completely explainable for which he was convicted because of evidence that didn't come in that case.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
BAEZ: He was being hunted by a drug dealer at that time which is why he carried a gun everywhere he went, which is why he had these people around him all the time. And that's what this book -- the book does, it kind of puts it in perspective how one case led to the other and how he ultimately ended up where he was.
MACCALLUM: And it's an interesting title "Unnecessary Roughness" which can apply to a lot of angles of the story to be sure. Jose Baez, it's a very interesting story and I thank you for being here tonight.
BAEZ: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
MACCALLUM: Thank you.
All right. So coming up, we will move on to lighter topics as Jesse Watters joins us. Animal crackers now get to roam around free. They are released from their cages on the old box. Remember those boxes, Jose?
BAEZ: I sure do.
MACCALLUM: Complaints from PETA led to this big change. It is Wednesday. So what does Jesse Watters think about that? And we may end up talking about the Patriots as well, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So you may have noticed that Omarosa kind of got another headlines. She made another attempt to stay in the news. She released a so- called bombshell video of Trump attorney Michael Cohen doing, well, I don't know. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen.
OMAROSA MANIGAULT-NEWMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: The reason I wanted to share this with you is first of all, to show you he was in fact involved with the campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Well, I'm glad she cleared that up because it's a little confusing why that would be big news. So it's time for Wednesday with Watters. Hi, Jesse.
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: Hi, Martha.
MACCALLUM: How are you? So they really play that up on another network.
WATTERS: Yes, I know what you are doing this segment now because you compete against that show at 7 o'clock.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
WATTERS: And you want to make fun of this guy for promoting this thing.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: I mean, it's pretty obvious.
WATTERS: And I saw the ratings, you still beat him even though he teased the heck out of this.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Of course we do.
WATTERS: Of course.
MACCALLUM: We always do. We love our viewers and they stick with us and they love it when you come by too.
WATTERS: Well, thank you. They have great taste here.
MACCALLUM: But how is that news that Michael Cohen walked up a staircase and walked onto a plane and she took a video of it. She -- they hyped that like it was this huge explosive video.
WATTERS: It's not even fake news because it's not news. There's nothing there. I mean, Omarosa is a joke. MSNBC became the punch line. If you had a video that was teased up like that and you didn't deliver at the end your viewers would hate you.
And you would vet it though, beforehand on the story. They just threw that out there and went with it because they are both using each other. I do find it funny that when O'Keefe has a little video or audio that he wants to play MSNBC won't air it because they say it's edited or doctored but they will just take anything Omarosa puts out there.
MACCALLUM: Well, that wasn't edited or doctored, that was just boring.
WATTERS: That was really boring.
MACCALLUM: That was super boring. All right. So I want to talk you about something else--
WATTERS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- that is, you know, maybe perhaps equally important.
WATTERS: OK.
MACCALLUM: And this is animal crackers. Because PETA folks have gotten very upset about the little cages that the animals are kept in on the old - - there is the old. OK, so the old one is on the left side of your screen and the new one is on the right and they are free and roaming in Africa, which is a beautiful thing.
But I have a nostalgic connection to Barnum's Animal crackers because my mom used to buy them for me when I was little to keep me quiet in the grocery store and sit me in that little thing in the front and put the string around your hand and I could eat them while we were shopping. So I don't see why they had to change it.
WATTERS: OK. I know why. It's because they are moving along with the times, Martha. They are just trying to sell crackers here and when you think of circus animals in cages, you don't think of delicious food. OK. You don't think of good food at all actually. So they are just saying there's no circus anymore. These are like cage free crackers. You know, whey are roaming free.
MACCALLUM: So you are in favor of it?
WATTERS: Kids want to see. Yes! I'm in favor -- I actually agree with PETA.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: And this is what cracks me up. Yes, this is the intermediate version as they tried to get a little bit more friendly, and I love animals. I'm just not worried about paper animals on the outside of a box.
WATTERS: You love animals, you just want to lock them up.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: No, I don't want to lock them up. But the whole image was circus train is coming to--
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: That's mean. It's like a Trump rally. You're like, lock them up!
MACCALLUM: -- your town. The circus train is coming to your town and they march around--
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: That's true.
MACCALLUM: -- and they're used to be kind of ferocious like the lion looked a little bit scary and the tiger looks a little bit -- now they're like having fun with her little baby animals.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: Well, I understand. I was traumatized at a circus.
MACCALLUM: You were?
WATTERS: One time a clown picked me up, pulled me away from my parents and then put me on top of an elephant and the elephant walks me around in front of 10,000 people. It's scary stuff. No one wants to see animals in cages, Martha! Especially kids when they are eating!
MACCALLUM: That was a traumatizing moment for you?
WATTERS: Yes, and look at how I turned out.
MACCALLUM: All right. So this is probably also a traumatizing moment for you. This happened in the preseason.
WATTERS: What was that?
MACCALLUM: Let's look at the score, shall we?
WATTERS: Yes.
MACCALLUM: It's also very traumatizing.
WATTERS: You know, these games don't count.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Very traumatizing. They don't count.
WATTERS: These games do not count.
MACCALLUM: But they do feel good. They feel--
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: They feel good. It's like a consolation prize for you after the Super Bowl.
MACCALLUM: But 37 to 20. Do you guys--
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: No, I think 41 to 33 was the score of the Super Bowl--
MACCALLUM: Thirty seven--
WATTERS: -- the last time they played when it mattered.
MACCALLUM: And Tom Brady in a lot of times the big quarterback don't pay it in this game. But he was like you know, why not, let's go out and play.
WATTERS: Yes. He's a little bit rusty after that last football.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: He was a little bit rusty and that was the score. See what I mean?
WATTERS: I think it's fine. We got where they want. We'll see you guys back in the Super Bowl next year.
MACCALLUM: Do you think?
WATTERS: Yes, and same result.
MACCALLUM: Thirty seven, 20, Patriots.
WATTERS: No, I'm talking about the last time.
MACCALLUM: All right. Here's your -- I mean, I want to leave -- can you show me, what animal was that? I have no idea.
WATTERS: This is a--
MACCALLUM: This one. So this is a bear.
WATTERS: This is a camel.
MACCALLUM: Is it cruel if we eat them?
WATTERS: Is that a camel? Yes, I'm going to go ahead for--
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Remember last time you were here and we had an emotional support camel.
WATTERS: I know. You are mean to the support animals and the circle animals.
MACCALLUM: No, I'm not mean. I love animals. Let's chow down.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTERS: Is there something that you want--
MACCALLUM: I just love the little boxes. I'm bearing the stuff.
WATTERS: All right. Let's chow down.
MACCALLUM: All right. They are really good.
WATTERS: That's where you get your calcium from.
MACCALLUM: There's a -- yes, there's a very good source of calcium. So this is, it's health-food basically.
WATTERS: Yes. Tom Brady eats these.
MACCALLUM: I don't think so unless they are pale animals. Thanks, Jesse.
WATTERS: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: That is our story for this Wednesday night. Tweet me at Martha MacCallum. Tell me what you think about the caged animals on the side of the box this paper. Tweet me @MarthaMacCallum using hashtag #thestory. We'll see you back here tomorrow night at 7 o'clock. And my friend Tucker Carlson in D.C. he's coming up next. Stick around.
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