White House says Haspel is the right person to lead the CIA

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White House says Haspel is the right person to lead the CIA

Media microscope turns on President Trump's pick to run the CIA ahead of confirmation hearing; reaction and analysis on 'The Five.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 7, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Brian Kilmeade, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

Yet another storm in Washington over one of President Trump's nominees, this time, Gina Haspel under the microscope ahead of her confirmation hearing on Wednesday, the CIA director nominee appeared on the hill today to meet with senators in advance of the hearing. Administration sources confirm Haspel is willing to withdraw for consideration over the controversy about her role in the CIA's controversial interrogation program, but the White House is firmly standing behind her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: She deserves quick confirmation without partisan theatrics. The bottom line, acting director Haspel has an un-parallel understanding of the CIA and is the right person to lead them during these dangerous times. She wants to do everything she can to make sure the integrity of the CIA remains intact, isn't unnecessarily attacked, and if she felt that her nomination would have been a problem for that and for the agency, then she wanted to do everything she could to protect the agency. At the same time, she wants to do everything she can to protect the safety and security of Americans, which is why she's 100 percent committed to going through this confirmation process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: The president tweeted his support earlier. My highly respected nominee has come under fire because she was too tough on terrorist, think of that. In these very dangerous times, who have the most qualified person, a woman, who Democrats want out because she is too tough on terror. Win Gina. Even people who used to hold this role think she's the right fit for the job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL HAYDEN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: With a president who does not always attach his decisions to the real world, to data, to evidence, Gina Haspel is the one woman I want in that room when everyone else will be going into north south auto Bob and saying you're right, boss. Gina Haspel won't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: All right. Hayden coming out in strong support of President Trump's CIA nominee Gina Haspel, saying, in fact, this is the exact person you want in the room and making the decisions in these tough times, dealing with terror.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah. I would call that a backhanded compliment. It was like, we need to have her because the president is crazy is basically what he just said. But I always wonder, what do the Democrats wants in a position like this? They never want an adult. Who do they want? Do they want Dr. Phil? Apparently, they don't think a woman who can do the job. They can do that to Republicans, Republicans can do that back. But, this is, and we always know this is the case. This is the byproduct of team sport politics. The other team cannot make it easy for your nominations to get through. It has nothing to do with qualifications, expertise or talent. They've just got to do it because you're not on the same team.

But, the other thing, the long-term consequences of stuff like this, you will be punished in the future for the brave choices you make in the past. So, how will that influence present-day patriots when they have to deal with really, really tough choices in terms of people being threatened, or there could be an impending attack and you have to decide. Well, am I going to sacrifice my future and make a decision that could be looked upon later as illegal? Or do I just not do that and just make the world less safe now? That's the thing that scares name.

GUILFOYLE: It's so true, Dana. So, what are they expecting, the Democrats? We're going to make a choice that perhaps they think is OK because somebody who is put in charge of terrorism and making sure that we keep America safe, she's too tough on terrorists, on Al-Qaeda and all the rest?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Think of the president has his finger on the pulse of where the American public is on this from the standpoint of being tough on terror. We've proven that again and again. But also, remember, John Brennan, who was a superior to Gina Haspel, was confirmed to be CIA director, and he did not go through this kind of scrutiny. And so, the fact that she is, under President Trump, does leave a lot of room for questions in terms of the strategy, politically. Just a moment to talk about her, after 9/11, she was one of the men and women that were asked to do really tough things. She wasn't the lawyer. Ok. She was the intelligence operator.

And the lawyers at the Justice Department deliberate over all of this, and they say here's where the law is. I can't think of a better way to empower terrorists than to take our men and women in intelligence, and what Greg was saying, basically make them second-guess themselves. Where there like, oh, should I, can I, would I? They had the legal clearance. They did really tough things. They caught people like -- I don't call them person, they've got terrorists, like Khalid Sheik Mohammed who cut off the head of Danny Pearl, the Wall Street Journal reporter. There were three terrorists who went through the waterboarding that was the one enhanced interrogation technique that they did not like. It is no longer available to be used unless this president or this Justice Department or this congress decides to change it.

The other thing -- I'll just mention one other point, Ron Wyden the senator from Oregon, said why her? I mean, there's so many women in national security who could do this job. No, actually, exactly her. She had 33 years of her career dedicated to public service. She asked to be transferred to the counterintelligence. She was transferred on September 11, 2001. That was her first day on that job. I think that they deserve a lot more of our support than this condemnation decades later. I do think she will be confirmed. The Democrats are choosing a really unfortunate reason to try to put her through the ringer. Just let her get through because she's going to be confirmed.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. It's such a good point that you make because she should be respected, chosen and confirm based on the majority of her -- body of work -- 33 years keeping America safe, protecting this country, working so much of it in an undercover operations.

PERINO: Can I -- I'm sorry if I can just add one more thing, Brian, I know you're ready to go. I don't usually like to say this, but what it means for women working in government for her to stick to it, take the support of the president, go forward and be confirmed is so important. She spent 33 years there. It takes a long time for women in government to get to these positions, but government is where women can really make a difference in leadership. Her going forward, standing tall, she has nothing to be ashamed of. She has everything to be proud of. It means a lot for women behind you coming up through the ranks if you go through this confirmation.

GUILFOYLE: You're absolutely right. And she's got to stand, you know, strong and tough on this like she has for 33 years of a dedicated career really asking for nothing back in return. And not even -- no financial consideration there because they don't get paid much. They work very hard. They make sacrifices personally and for their family, Brian. She should be chosen not because she's a woman, because she's the best choice in candidate for the job.

BRIAN KILMEADE, GUEST CO-HOST: Remember, President Obama comes in, Eric Holder goes -- first thing they do is go after those enhanced interrogation people. And, all of a sudden, Leon Panetta does, wait a second, back off. I'm protecting my people. All of sudden, people say, wait a second, you're going after me for doing something the Justice Department allowed me to do to stop the next attack. If you read Jose Rodriguez's book, you read what the CIA men and women did at the time. There's no doubt they stopped the next attack. Not only do I hope that she embraces her role in the black sites and the enhanced interrogation. I think she should do it with pride. And I think she should invite people to have this dialogue. I did what I was supposed to do. I'm proud of what I did as an American. I follow the law. I'm very proud of it. After 32 years, to get to the point where I'm deputy, now acting. If you want to give me the job, go do it. If you don't like what I did, you should have stopped -- well, you shouldn't have allowed us to do the program because it was signed off by everyone. So, it comes down to votes.

Rand Paul is, you know, he was seeing -- he's an eye doctor at the time, so he's perfectly qualified to comment on this. So, he doesn't want to vote for her. But if Joe Manchin, Jon Tester, Joe Donnelly, Heidi Heitkamp, or Clair McCaskill has any hope of holding onto their seats in red states, they better vote for her. And, for her to say I don't want to be Ronny Jackson on Wednesday, and then to have to run to the CIA to say come on back, we're going to fight for you. It shows me the White House was slow to back her. They did not get the campaign going. And if Pompeo couldn't get 60 votes, she's saying why do I want to not only not get the job but ruin my reputation at the same time. I am horrified and I am embarrassed for lawmakers who will not run to her defense right now.

GUILFOYLE: No, no, you're right. I mean, she should be celebrated, say what a strong, outstanding choice the president made, and she's willing to continue to serve this country faithfully despite the efforts by those to smear her and to besmirch her reputation base on what she did, which was upholding the law. Those are the best the law in the books.

KILMEADE: She stopped the next attack. She was part of black sites, enhanced interrogation, chief of staff for Jose Rodriguez.

GUILFOYLE: Women and young girls growing up should look up to someone like this to say I can be and achieve and be anything I want in life. Look at the strength of those who have come before me.

KILMEADE: And if I could add one more thing, all the acting director's backer.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

KILMEADE: . Brennan, Clapper -- national intelligence, but Panetta, Hayden, Morell, who was acting for McLaughlin, Porter Goss and Bob Carroll, Democratic senator backer .

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, let's see if Senator Rand Paul and McCaskill will come forward, as you've said, a tough race ahead of her.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I think I should get you guy's pompoms. And you could be like a cheering squad.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: But I'm saying it lacks, somehow, coherence because you've got 100 military people who have said we oppose Gina Haspel. Gee, why would 100 of our American military personnel oppose Gina Haspel when all the insiders, people I know in the intelligence community, people who have been absolutely demonized by the Trump administration, by the way, remember Nazi and all the rest, now everybody is, oh, pro-CIA, pro -- and guess what? The insiders love Gina Haspel, trust or think that she is competent, does her job well. But when you come down to this issue, it's not about having everybody on the inside say, yeah, we like our fellow insider. It's about American values. And in terms of American values, someone like John McCain, who was tortured, says I couldn't -- I can't do that. Dianne Feinstein who is definitely a woman, and definitely open to having a woman, the first woman run CIA, says the more I read, the more disturbed I am.

KILMEADE: Where was she? Where was she during -- when this was happening?

WILLIAMS: Let me just finish up. So, what you have here is a situation where Marc Short and Sarah Huckabee Sanders had to go over to CIA because, guess what, the impression is that in a 51-49 Republican to Democrat senate, right now there're not the votes to approve Gina Haspel. And you don't have Rand Paul. You don't have McCain.

GUILFOYLE: It doesn't mean you won't have them. Doesn't mean you won't have them. Standby, wait and see. Ric Grenell didn't have those votes either.

WILLIAMS: I'll tell you what, and how long did it take him? So, I think Gina Haspel doesn't want to go through that. The question is right now, whether or not she can say, listen, that's in the past, because arguably she's the perfect person to say, you know what, that was a mistake. I have been through it and let's move on. I think that's.

PERINO: I wouldn't call it a mistake.

GUILFOYLE: Absolutely not. She doesn't have to say anything.

KILMEADE: Juan's right, there's a tactic out there. There are people who support her who want her to say what Juan said.

GUILFOYLE: No.

KILMEADE: And I think it'd be a big mistake.

GUILFOYLE: I don't think. She should not back down.

GUTFELD: Unless she did it, and then she winks.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Yes, it was a mistake to water board.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Hundred people. They could people that are trying to support someone else, and not supporting her for other different political, ideological.

WILLIAMS: I think you're missing the whole.

GUILFOYLE: I don't think I am.

WILLIAMS: This is about American values. And you know what? We don't torture people. We don't think that's good.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Legal. Legal.

KILMEADE: This is what you should think about. Is it one of your friends that had a choice to jump out of a 67th floor building or burn alive? If you want to stop the next attack from happening, that's what she had to deal with. And she was one of the people that made it work. She should get a medal and the position.

GUILFOYLE: Absolutely. Why we're able to sleep peacefully at night. She was the one that wasn't been sent apart making decisions and participating for 33 long years helping keep us all safe. With that she should be commended. It should not be smeared.

WILLIAMS: Obviously, 9/11 happened, so I don't know of all of us being safe. But, here's the thing, it's not only the fact that she's.

GUILFOYLE: Don't let it happen again. OK.

WILLIAMS: . people were being -- when one person was being tortured, it's also the destruction of the tapes. And I think that's what Senator Feinstein is saying. Hey, you know what, you can say -- oh, the lawyers say go right -- but if you're a functioner that's all -- you're not a leader.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: So, Eric Holder, the attorney general comes in, Obama asked him please can you do this review, does review, declined to prosecute.

WILLIAMS: Correct.

PERINO: At what point does the legal system or the Justice Department or - - who gets the final word?

WILLIAMS: The final word was we are not going to punish people in the prior administration.

PERINO: OK.

WILLIAMS: And that was the decision by the Obama people.

PERINO: So then, does she not fall into that category?

WILLIAMS: Not in this instance. This is giving her the top job at CIA that reflects our values.

PERINO: Because she's gonna what? She's going to go torture people?

WILLIAMS: We don't -- you raised the question.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: There is no proof that she -- right. There's no proof she participated in the enhanced interrogation of any high value detainee at all, whatsoever. No proof of that.

KILMEADE: But, clearly, I think she was there.

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE: Because of her, she stopped myriad of attacks, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said it himself. Put the time to do the research for the people who do it, they're the one who said this stop. And that sent a message.

GUILFOYLE: She did not personally participate.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: She ran the Thailand station.

GUILFOYLE: I'm getting Greg in.

GUTFELD: My point is, the escape hatch in this argument is always, it does not reflect our values. That is an emotional feeling. It's not based on any facts.

GUILFOYLE: Moral sentiments.

GUTFELD: The facts are our values survive because of our willingness to try and prevent the evil actions of people who want to destroy the world. That reflects our values. To say, oh, this is beneath us. Please, we fought wars. We did bad things in wars to preserve our freedom. Our values are the willingness to protect this country.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, we have a large military and we do it, but we don't torture people.

GUTFELD: And part of that.

GUILFOYLE: OK.

KILMEADE: Enhanced interrogation.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: It's called torture.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: But, guys, you have to follow the law in this. This was legal, this was vetted. This was something that was approved. It was on the books. She did not commit any crimes. She did not engage in any kind of misconduct, whatsoever. She followed the law. Would President Trump plead the fifth in the Russia investigation? His new lawyer isn't ruling it out. That's next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: President Trump's new attorney Rudy Giuliani is raising all kinds of questions after his latest media blitz. The former mayor, now saying the president may not comply with a special counsel subpoena.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: We don't have to. He's the president of the United States. We can assert the same privileges other presidents have. President Clinton negotiated a deal in which he didn't admit the effectiveness of a subpoena. They withdraw it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: And, Mayor Giuliani is unsure if the president will plead the fifth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Are you confident the president will not take the fifth in this case?

GIULIANI: Oh, how can I be confident of that? When I'm facing a situation with the president and all the other lawyers are, in which every lawyer in America thinks he'd be a fool to testify. I've got a client who wants to testify.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Mr. Trump's attorney not ruling out if Michael Cohen made payments to other women on behalf of the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: Think if it was necessary, yes. He made payments for the president, or he conducted business for the president, which means he had legal fees, monies laid out and expenditures, which I have on my bills to my clients.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Wow. So, is Rudy Giuliani helping or hurting his client, the president? I'm going to ask you to start us off, Brian.

KILMEADE: Couple of things, I think the tone that he's setting is exactly what the president wants. He's aggressive. Enough sitting on my hands. Oh, you want a million piece of paper? You can have it. You want anything else? I hope you don't call me for a meeting. Oh, you're interviewing my friends. You're hassling my family. It's OK. Those days are over. What Rudy Giuliani has to do is inform people about what he's doing. He's got to understand, it's a legal team. And, even if he has the best or worst plan, everyone needs to know. The communications department didn't know what he was doing, and the rest of the legal team didn't know what he was doing, and it totally dispirited the White House in particular.

I think President Trump and Rudy Giuliani knew what they were doing. I don't think he was that surprised. I talked with him for half-hour on radio, half-hour on Fox & Friends, about 20 minutes on the phone the day before. There was no panic. There was no oops. There was no, what have I done here. He felt as though he was on path. What he has to do now is come back and say we have to speak with one voice. In one way, I think he'd set the tone which is a positive, and in another way, he set him back on the Stormy Daniels situation.

WILLIAMS: So, Dana, I think a lot of people were struck by some of the things that Brian just said, which is that folks at the White House were like, we didn't know this was coming. We didn't know this was going on. They're all kinds of shock at this. And, in addition to which the suggestion that there may be more payments came as an absolute unsettling factor.

PERINO: I don't know. I mean, there is a school of thought among some people that it's better for the press secretary or the people doing communications, for them not to know certain things because it protects them from something. I've never subscribed to that theory, but I know that it exists. And it will turn out however it turns out. The only thing I'm focused on is something that I asked John Yu who is the legal scholar at Berkeley, very accomplished lawyer, and he knows a lot about the branches of government and how they have to interact. And I said what is the settled law of whether a president can ignore a subpoena from the judicial branch, and he said that that is like one of the one thing that has never been decided by a Supreme Court, so that's, actually, this could be kind of interesting, should be the time -- the first time that it's actually decided.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. I think the court said that you have to give them the documents. So, the question is about the testimony. And, By the way, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: . you hear the president say, you know, Rudy is new to this. He'll get his facts straight, which is like, well, does he -- is Rudy on the page or not on the page?

GUILFOYLE: Rudy is on the page. That's actually a vote of confidence for the president saying, yeah. They're very close. He relies on his counsel. And he's saying, look, he's come on to the case very quickly here. He's catching up, getting up speed on everything. So, now he's going through it. He's goal is to protect the president, protect the family. He's trying to be forthright and transparent and answer the questions. He's not ruling anything out or in, and that's how it should be. A smart lawyer doesn't like, you know, close doors. You have to make sure to say, OK. This is what we're looking at. We're going to evaluate it. Make case-by- case determination and bases here.

In terms of whether or not the president would have to, you know, testify or to take the fifth, etcetera, there's some other legal hurdles and challenges here. And you've had some key rulings, as of late, that has actually benefited the president where you've seen the federal judges kind of put a stop to some of the nonsense, saying this is too wide a scope. We want to see the memos, the scope memos, to make sure you can't just engage in a fishing expedition and try to reel in the President of the United States, his family members, and anyone else that he might, you know, have communicated with or have knowledge of this.

So, I think that there's going to be some legal hurdles for Mueller. Not to mention, how many people that he might have coming forward with the testimony. They're going to be impeached or have no credibility, whatsoever, like, you know, in terms of the Mueller investigation. So, I think that's going to be important too. Who's going to be left to testify that hasn't been -- inconsistent statements, or resign from the FBI, or written a book? Good luck.

WILLIAMS: So, Greg, the two people left out of this. One is, apparently, Jared is disposable. And then, Ivanka is off limits. Don't go after Ivanka. And then, Michael Cohen, he's said yesterday, Michael Cohen may be cooperating with Mueller.

GUTFELD: I watched a lot of the coverage when I'm at the gym, not by choice, and what I realize about the story and why I hate it so much, and I know most of America hates it, it is now lawyers interviewing lawyers about what a lawyer said. And what are the legal ramifications of what they said? We're not sure, so let's get a panel and to talk about it. This story is bordering on the tulip crazed. It's self-fueled hysteria generated by those in the media who feed off it inside their bubble and they don't care that outside the bubble America really doesn't give a damn. We don't care.

This is how it starts, they wake up in the morning, the TV executives, should we do Stormy or should we do Mueller? Let's do Stormy, OK. Somebody said something about Stormy. OK, let's get a panel and to talk about Stormy. All right. Now, let's get the legal panel to parse the words of the person who've just talked about Stormy. Then, we get the next panel in for the political ramifications. And while this is all going on, someone else will then start the process over again by saying something about Mueller, so then you can switch from Stormy to Mueller. Meanwhile, Trump's numbers continue to go up. America gets incredibly fed up and burned out by this. And I'm telling you, there's going to be a rebound to this that is going to help Trump because people are tired of hearing about lawyers and experts talk about subpoenas and explaining and summarizing facts that we really don't give a flying crap about.

KILMEADE: Tell you what, those two judges who made those comments, who I thoroughly understood without a legal degree, who came out and said you don't want Paul Manafort. You want Trump. And the other one says, you had an indictment, and why don't you just produce the evidence for this indictment? I'm not giving you any more time. The I.G. report is going to be very revealing.

WILLIAMS: All right.

GUTFELD: I still don't care.

WILLIAMS: All right, guys.

GUTFELD: Sorry.

WILLIAMS: We've got to go. We've got to sell some ads here. Former First Lady Michelle Obama not happy President Trump's in the White House, and now she's creating some waves by questioning a large chunk of his voters. That's next on The Five.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: In the latest installment of what happened in an election that occurred a year and a half ago, Michelle Obama was asked how Trump won and she laid the blame on Hillary. Just kidding, she blamed sexism -- from women against women.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY: In light of this last election, I'm concerned about us as women and how we think.

If we're not comfortable with the notion that a woman could be our president compared to what? You know, we have to have that conversation with ourselves as women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Maybe so, but her analysis seems a symptom of a greater problem that contributed to her party's loss. It goes back to seeing the group and not the person. I call it IPB, Identity Politics Blindness. They lost not because Hillary was a woman; they lost because all they saw was a woman. Meanwhile, Trump took nothing for granted.

The fact is, many voters would have happily voted for a woman, just not that one, because unlike Trump, she didn't speak to their concerns. She only spoke of her entitlement. She just assumed that she had the votes. And just assuming a woman must vote for a woman seems pretty insulting, from a man.

Humans are more complex, surprising and interesting than liberals give them credit for. But more than anything, Trump's election is a lesson in effort. At least he showed up, he fought. Hillary didn't. If Democrats learn from that, then they can win. But if they continue to dwell in this narrow-minded, intolerant universe where all people sit in their own identity buckets, where their behavior is fixed forever by sex or race, they will lose. And then what group will they blame next?

What do you think, Kimberly? Do you think Michelle Obama would feel differently if she were a left-wing [SIC] woman? It's not really about gender.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: No, I don't think it's really about gender. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it's about the candidate. About people making a choice based on the qualifications, the merit of the candidacy.

And what you saw during this past election, that people related. The working men and women across the country felt that this was movement they wanted to be part of. Be part of the Trump campaign and movement across the country to let blue-collar workers, families, middle class not be left behind.

Now, if a fantastic female candidate who went out there and campaigned and hit all the spots you were supposed to, actually spoke to the people in that way, I 100 percent believe they could prevail. Perhaps someday Michelle Obama will run for office. I think she would do quite well. If Oprah Winfrey ran for office, she would do quite well.

So it really is just, like, a measure of what you have to offer, what's going on in the country at the time, how you speak to the issues.

And Hillary has given us quite a few excuses as to why she did not prevail in the campaign, and one of the latest that we discussed on the show was who she said that she felt the people thought she was a capitalist. They didn't relate to her. Well, perhaps that's the case. She did not make the case to the everyday man and woman effectively or persuasively enough to get them to choose her.

GUTFELD: Dana, thoughts. As a woman, not as a human being, but as a woman. Because all we -- all we see are --

PERINO: Let me out of my bucket.

GUTFELD: Yes. You can't see out of it.

PERINO: There's an interesting debate about demographics going on right now on Twitter, but basically saying that, you know, for a long time, demographers have been saying, "Look, the country is changing, and the Democrats are going to run away with this if the Republicans don't figure this out."

And it's been going on for, like, 26 years, and it hasn't happened. Maybe it will happen in the future. But at the same time, the -- the sand is shifting beneath the Democrats' feet. And there is a new coalition that was built in 2016, and I don't see what the Democrats are doing to try to win back the blue-collar workers. We have a segment coming up in the "E" block talking about economics, which is something, really, that is pretty - - quite remarkable, what the left is coming up with regards to talking about capitalism or not.

But the other thing is I would say the Republicans are probably not doing enough yet to figure out how to keep that coalition in their corner.

GUTFELD: Yes, Juan, we always get into this little tiff. I say humans are more complex and interesting than identity politics would supply, and you say but we do the same thing, or the Republicans do the same thing.

WILLIAMS: Oh, I think we're in an era of white identity politics, as represented by President Trump like we've never seen like in this country. But anyway, I want to come to this point, that I think that what Michelle Obama said really appeals to the basis of your argument, Greg.

Because she said this was about credentials. That, you know, clearly, we had the better credentialed, experienced in terms of preparing to be president candidate. And look what you guys elected. You have someone who has no experience, who's chaotic, impulsive and all the rest.

So -- and remember, you've got 52 percent of white women who voted for Trump. And she's saying why is that? Previously, you know, Mrs. Obama has said, "You know, you can't wait for the next person to save you. You've got to do it yourself." And women who are voting against women because they're a woman or don't trust a woman, there's something negative in there.

KILMEADE: You guys are making this way too complex.

PERINO: Thanks.

KILMEADE: President Obama left very popular, but his policies weren't. For eight years, people were frustrated. He wasn't tapped in. People were unmotivated. All he did was gradually lose the entire party and not fund the DNC, and build himself up. People like him. They didn't like his administration; they didn't like the way it was executed. Nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman.

If you put Tulsi Gabbard against Nikki Haley, it's game on. It's someone who's a veteran, that understands people, that has a lot to offer. It would be something totally different.

She did not lose because she was a woman. She didn't get a vote because she was a woman. By the end of it, it was two candidates. And they took the person that they thought would be most dramatically different from President Obama, and they got it.

GUILFOYLE: That's a good head-to-head that you just brought up, by the way.

KILMEADE: That's going to be the future.

Can we save this show? Do we tape it?

GUTFELD: No, any show you're on, we burn.

KILMEADE: I feel it.

GUTFELD: It's in our bylaws.

PERINO: Yes, the Justice Department approved it.

WILLIAMS: In that case, we've got a bonfire, because he's on a lot of shows.

GUTFELD: I know, I know, I know.

GUILFOYLE: "The Five" bylaws.

GUTFELD: All right. Gun owners in Illinois are stealing a page from the liberal playbook to protect their Second Amendment rights. We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Five Illinois counties are flipping the script on the left, declaring sanctuary status for gun owners if the state moves to pass restrictive gun-control laws. Here's a state attorney in one of those counties on why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRYAN KIBLER, EFFINGHAM COUNTY STATE ATTORNEY: There was a thought, why don't we just make this a sanctuary county like they would for undocumented immigrants? So we did flip the script on it, and I think that's what's caused this -- you know, this outpouring of support and also against what we're up to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: So Greg, this was your idea.

GUTFELD: It was. It was a while ago, I said what is good for the goose is good for the gun owner. If you decide to exempt a group of people from laws, then why can't everybody do it? Why are you special?

I mean, think about how extreme this could get. If you said, like, unborn -- "I want a sanctuary city for unborn children." At the same time, a gun owner sanctuary where you could block people from going to abortion clinics. Armed people could do that.

That's what you're talking about. Once you make it OK for one group to do something or one group to do that, it could be civil war. That's why you have laws.

PERINO: So then Kimberly, what happens with the law?

GUILFOYLE: Now, I mean, look, the whole situation here, I think, it's -- it's tough, because you have people on both sides of this. It can be very polarizing, because you want to be sympathetic. But at the same time you have to uphold the rule of law.

But doesn't it make sense? We can't just decide to legislate based on popular emotions or sentiments at the time. That is not how a lawful society works. It's just not. You have people with very strong opinions, very heartfelt, and they want to be heard.

So let's let them be heard. But you have to actually change the laws on the books. You can't just choose to ignore them.

PERINO: Yes, right. Juan, what do you think about the strategy of basically flipping the script on the left when it comes to sanctuary?

WILLIAMS: It's great. It's funny. It's cute. It's just like saying we can do it. You know, just say, "If you do it, we'll do it." I mean, but it doesn't have much meat.

To me, the sanctuary idea comes from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church said "You come in," to the illegal immigrants, "and we'll protect families and the like."

I can't imagine they're going to say, "Oh, gun owners, guns, if you want, you know, freedom to carry" -- what is it, conceal and carry or --?

PERINO: Concealed carry.

WILLIAMS: Come on in.

GUILFOYLE: The military.

WILLIAMS: Something carry, yes. "Come on in the church." They don't -- they don't feel that way.

PERINO: Well, but -- but the concept is the same. Like, the principle is the same.

KILMEADE: Right. We didn't elect the pope. So I did not see him on the ballot, but I will say this.

I am outraged by this. I did think this was a slippery slope, although no one was asking me at the time, because I wasn't on "The Five" that day when you came up with the wonderful pun. But I do think this is a bad sign. I mean, when one state says basically, let's vote on getting out of the union. One state says, 'Let's open up our borders, let everybody in. Let's give them the same thing." The other state goes, the rural part of Illinois goes, "By the way, I need a gun. I don't like the -- I don't want to ban bump stocks. I would like to make sure the age of it goes to 21 -- stay at 18."

It's not up to you. You've got to elect people to represent you. You can't go wildcatting on laws. So we have to stop this. And if it has to stop on "The Five," let's stop right here.

GUTFELD: Do you know in New Jersey, there's a Kilmeade Free Zone.

KILMEADE: Right.

GUTFELD: Did you know that?

KILMEADE: And I would protest against that.

GUTFELD: Yes.

KILMEADE: They thought it was in my self-interest. It was selfish of me to do it. But now I seem like a leader.

PERINO: It can go the other way, too. I just read this article about all these -- not all these -- several sheriffs across the country ignoring local and state laws and saying they only are responsible to enact the Constitution.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: So we'll find out.

All right. Will Republicans benefit from the Democrats' hard left turn ahead of the midterm? Right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KILMEADE: Hi. Ahead of the midterms, socialist Bernie Sanders is pushing the party to take a hard left turn for a change. He, of course, wants health care for all, education for all. He also wants jobs for all at $15 an hour. Bernie wants the government to guarantee a job for every American who's willing and able to work.

It sounds good, but won't that be a disaster for this thing called a free market and free economy? He's going to be outlining that in a big speech in Maryland today.

Dana, $15 an hour. Everyone gets it. We have 3.9 percent unemployment, but he says everyone should get this. He provides no evidence of how this is going to be funded.

PERINO: Well, it is interesting when you have the head coach of capitalism, President Trump, who's like, "Well, look at what I've done here. And see the results."

And then you have someone like Bernie Sanders, who still has a very strong following, coming forward with all of these programs that would -- that are not free-market-oriented that would put the -- slam the brakes on the growing economy. And they never have to talk about how they would fund it. They just say, "Well, it will work out."

KILMEADE: It's going to be from the federal government, administered locally. Some of these jobs are really attractive. They're going to clean up vacant lots. They're going to oversee programs for new mothers. Tree planting, and weatherizing homes.

It turns out there might even be ads for these, Juan, right now, that need to be filled. In Indiana, they can't even fill, fulfilled their staff to work in a restaurant, but Bernie Sanders is going to fund these jobs.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know how he's going to fund them but I mean, the fact is that if you go back and you look at something like the New Deal, we created jobs.

KILMEADE: There was 20 percent unemployment then.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: We created jobs as a government.

KILMEADE: We were in a Depression.

WILLIAMS: Right. And then we had a war. Right? And we had military jobs. If you wanted to go that far, right? But it's not -- the difference here is how many people --

KILMEADE: You can't -- you can't like this. You can't like this.

WILLIAMS: No, no. I don't know to like it or dislike it because I don't think -- I think the big objection is how much would it cost and the potential for inflation and Medicare, that everybody would have Medicare. But we really don't know. Because you know what? A lot of people, if you'd offer them a job for 15 bucks, they wouldn't take it.

KILMEADE: Bernie Sanders is in the wrong country. We -- he has to leave. We don't have to change.

GUTFELD: My name is Greg.

KILMEADE: Thank you. I'll go to Kimberly.

Kimberly, what do you think of --

WILLIAMS: You can't dis my man.

KILMEADE: I just did. I made sure the show is live. Kimberly --

WILLIAMS: Wait, you hurt his feelings. You're going to hurt his feelings.

KILMEADE: He has no feelings.

GUTFELD: Wait until "One More Thing."

GUILFOYLE: He's sure there's no reciprocity there that he has displayed towards this individual.

OK, fine. I have an answer for you. This is someone who is an avowed socialist, a communist. He wants to make sure and essentially guarantee all of these services, jobs, et cetera, to all Americans. It sounds wonderful. It's a beautiful and lofty goal, isn't it?

How are we going to pay for this? You're going to need to increase taxes.

KILMEADE: What of the free market?

GUILFOYLE: Well, there's no free market, or no capitalism involved in this whatsoever. This isn't even like -- based on our Constitution, based on our system of governance, based on our capitalism and free markets in this country. It is also unworkable. So if you want to take a look at Venezuela and if you think that's winning, then go ahead and vote for Bernie Sanders.

WILLIAMS: Sounds like Hillary Clinton, who said that so many of these Bernie populists didn't like the fact that she was a capitalist.

KILMEADE: And real quick, Greg, do you know the governor, the Republican governor of Maryland?

GUTFELD: Yes.

KILMEADE: You know he wants to give free community college, too, on top of that. Larry Hogan. So this is -- plays right into the Maryland platform.

GUTFELD: Yes. You know, the thing is, it's -- all of these exist because they're half a plan. They have -- it's, you know, free health care, free education. But they don't come up with the second part of it, except to take money from somebody else.

Take a -- if you want just an example with the minimum wage. When you raise the minimum wage to $15, that's now the bottom rung, which means inflation, prices go up, and the job market shrinks, because you can't have as many jobs. And what does that do? That heightens the unemployment for teenage -- white teenagers, black teenagers, all teenagers.

You've got to read Thomas Sowell's book, latest book. He looks at the effects of minimum wage. Before minimum wage, there was almost near full employment for teenagers, black and white. Once minimum wage was introduced, destroyed.

KILMEADE: Because it's a free market and you can't afford it.

PERINO: The community college -- Governor Hogan of Maryland, there is a defensible explanation for that, for conservatives, which is that you are actually -- it's a cost benefit in the long run, because you have to get people that are hopefully able to graduate high school with a little bit of skills so that they can get good jobs.

KILMEADE: Dana, there's not one person out there that wants to go to community college that can't afford it. There are so many programs.

WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. Why would you say such a thing?

KILMEADE: We'll take that in the break. "One More Thing" is coming up next here. Juan won't get to do one.

GUILFOYLE: We're going to examine your head.

KILMEADE: There's Melania.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, wow, that was like --

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: It's time now for "One More Thing" -- Dana.

PERINO: All right. Join me in celebrating for World War II 96-year-old veteran Bob Barger. He just got his associate's degree from the University of Toledo. It came 68 years after he took his last class. They went back and looked at the records. It turns out he did have enough credits in order to graduate.

So he got to get on -- get the cap on and walk. He got his degree. And he said this: "I'm going to be proud to hang that diploma on the wall and think about the friends behind it. I found out without friends, this old world wouldn't be worth living in." Which is obviously very good advice.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Dana, thank you for that. Very good one -- Greg.

GUTFELD: All right. Something very important. Can we roll this please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAPHIC: Greg's Brian Kilmeade News

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: "Greg's Brian Kilmeade News." A very special day in Brian Kilmeade News. It's his birthday. So I decided to do --

GUILFOYLE: Happy birthday.

GUTFELD: I got you a few gifts.

KILMEADE: Really? Is it all your books?

GUTFELD: Well, first, we have the new book, which is "The Gutfeld Monologues."

PERINO: Brian gets early copy.

GUTFELD: Right there. You can order that. And look what I've got. I got the bible, "Unspeakable Truths," as well. I think you'll like that one, as well.

KILMEADE: This is fantastic. What does it say?

GUTFELD: And "How to Be Right." This is the book that came out two years ago, "How to Be Right." You can use that, not be wrong. And of course, "Not Cool." One of my personal favorites.

KILMEADE: Which is perfect for me.

GUTFELD: Because you are not cool. And then, of course, "The Joy of Hate." Classic. Never gets old. There you go.

PERINO: Happy birthday, Brian.

KILMEADE: I got everything, the same gift last year.

GUTFELD: I'm assuming you can read.

KILMEADE: Yes, that's a big assumption. Usually, I get books on tape.

PERINO: I hope you get a neck for your birthday.

KILMEADE: All right. That's true.

GUTFELD: A neck.

KILMEADE: My cartoon presents.

GUILFOYLE: Greg was going to get you a cake, because -- you know, but the problem is we know you hate eating on air.

KILMEADE: Right. Thank you very much. No, thank you. This is very moving.

GUILFOYLE: Happy birthday, with an air cake.

All right. So I have a very nice "One More Thing." Our first lady, Melania Trump, unveiled her new platform of initiatives to help children. Her "Be Best" campaign will focus on addressing the overall wellbeing of children, positivity on social media, and fighting opioid abuse. Here she is discussing why she has been so fiercely committed to tackling these important issues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY: I feel strongly that as adults we can should be best at educating our children about the importance of a healthy and balanced life. So today, I'm very excited to announce Be Best, an awareness campaign dedicated to the most valuable and fragile among us. Our children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: And this is something the first lady has been very passionate about prior to even becoming first lady. And really devoted to children's issues, something I share in common with her, so I commend her for her choices.

OK, Juan.

WILLIAMS: OK. So talk about too much winning. A Texas woman is yet unnamed won $1.2 million on Saturday. Here's her picture. She placed a bet at a racetrack in Salem, Texas, but they were races at Churchill Downs. She bet $18 on a pick five and included the derby winner, Justify, who was favorite. But she also bet long-shot winners in four other races. Turned out the woman won just about as much as the owners of the horse that won the Kentucky Derby

GUTFELD: It's always about race with you.

WILLIAMS: Go Brian.

GUILFOYLE: He's reveling in the --

KILMEADE: Mine is not going to make much sense now, but I'll try anyway. There's going to be a "Rambo 5."

GUTFELD: Yes!

KILMEADE: Made me wonder if there's going to be a "Rocky 3" and answer to this question. Did Hulk Hogan, would he actually beat Sylvester Stallone today, who's 71 years old, if they reinvigorated their fight and it was Thunderlips against Stallone?

PERINO: Are these the things you think about?

KILMEADE: Well, the problem is, TMZ had the sound, but I only have three seconds.

GUILFOYLE: Set your -- set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." "Special Report" is up next. Hey, Bret.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: Hey, Kimberly. Brian, happy birthday. I have a book for up.

KILMEADE: Thank you, sir.

BAIER: When you're ready, OK? Yes. Happy birthday.

KILMEADE: That was awesome.

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