This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," February 25, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, "FOX NEWS SUNDAY" HOST: I'm Chris Wallace.
House Democrats release a memo countering GOP claims the feds abused their power surveilling a Trump campaign advisor. And grieving parents and students push school safety to the top of the nation's agenda.
ANDREW POLLACK, FATHER OF VICTIM MEADOW POLLACK: How many schools, how many children have to get shot?
DELANEY TARR, SENIOR, MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL: We have nothing to lose. The only thing we have to gain at this point is our safety.
WALLACE: In the wake of the Florida school massacre, students confront lawmakers, walk out in protest and take their calls all the way to the White House.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to listen and then after I listen, we're going to get things done.
WALLACE: We'll discuss what's next with Florida Governor Rick Scott who just announced his plan to improve school safety.
GOV. RICK SCOTT, R-FLORIDA: I have broken my action plan down into three sections.
WALLACE: It's a FOX NEWS SUNDAY exclusive.
Then, we'll talk with two members of the Parkland Community whose lives are changed forever by the mass shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm pissed because my daughter I'm not going to see again!
WALLACE: Andrew Pollack, father of Meadow, who was murdered in the rampage. And student Delaney Tarr, who's mobilizing for change with other survivors.
Plus, the debate over the Trump-Russia investigation intensifies with release of the Democratic rebuttal to that controversial House Republican memo. We'll sit down with Congressman Jim Himes, the number two Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
And our power player of the week, a dinosaur hunter makes an amazing find.
All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."
WALLACE: And hello again from Fox News in Washington.
Lawmakers here in the nation's capital and in statehouses across the country are grappling with how to keep students safe after the deadly mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School just a week and a half ago. In a few minutes, we'll speak with Andrew Pollack, who lost his daughter Meadow, and Delaney Tarr, a student who survived the shooting, about how they're coping and what they're asking of the nation's leaders.
But first I sat down earlier with Florida's Governor Rick Scott to discuss his new package to prevent gun violence.
WALLACE: Governor Scott, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."
SCOTT: It's great to be here. Thanks for what you do.
WALLACE: Thank you.
Let's start with an outline of the plan you've just announced. Raise the age to buy all guns to 21, ban sale of bump stocks, pass a "red flag law", that let families or authorities go to court to take guns away from mentally ill or violent people, $450 million to harden schools and putting law enforcement in every school, $50 million for mental health.
Briefly, what's the thinking that's behind what you decided to do and what you decided not to do?
SCOTT: Chris, what I did was I listened to a lot of people -- law enforcement, educators and mental health, students, parents and said, what's going to fix this problem? Right?
One, we have to make sure our schools are safe -- law enforcement. Harden the schools. We've got to make sure we deal with the fact that there are people out there that have mental illness issues, they shouldn't have access to a gun. If you threaten people or yourself -- you shouldn't have access to a gun.
So, everything I'm doing is how do you solve the problem? I'm a business person. You go in, you solve the problem, and that's why I'm doing it.
WALLACE: How confident are you that the Florida legislature will pass this package? You've only got two weeks left in this session.
SCOTT: Right. I'm in my -- I'm starting -- I'll be in my last two weeks in session. I've been talking to the House and the Senate. I actually spoke to them this morning.
I'm going to work every day, between now and the end of session, on one purpose -- get this passed. Make sure we get the $500 million funding. Make sure we have the law enforcement, the mental health issues, make sure we're not -- people are not going to have access to a gun. I'm going to make sure parents feel confident in sending their child to school.
WALLACE: During your eight years as governor, you have gotten an A-plus rating from the NRA, but in this package, you've broken with them on a few things -- raising the age to buy rifles from 18 to 21, the red flag law -- why?
SCOTT: You know, I'm an NRA member. I believe in Second Amendment. I believe in the First Amendment, all the amendments.
I think most members in the NRA agree with me, this is logical. I'm sure there's going to be some that disagree. But I'm a dad. I'm a granddad and I'm a governor. I want my state to be safe. I want every child to be in a safe environment when they're trying to be educated.
WALLACE: But you've been a hardliner for the NRA and gun rights. There's a reason they gave you an A-plus. Back in 2011, you signed something called the Docs versus Glocks law, which prohibited doctors from asking any of their patients whether or not they had guns.
In 2016, after the terrible mass shooting at the Orlando Pulse nightclub, you said the Second Amendment doesn't kill people, evil kills people.
And just this last April, here's you in talking to the NRA. Here you are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: We need a majority that has the capacity to comprehend that these three words in the Constitution: shall not infringe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: To the degree that you now want to limit some gun rights, some would say that you want to infringe -- Governor, were you wrong back then?
SCOTT: No. Here's what you have to do in this job. You have to weigh individual rights, which I clearly believe in, right? I believe in the Second Amendment.
But you also have to make sure you protect your, you know, your citizens, your kids. And so, you've got weigh each of these things. What I did here is say -- I'm going to do what I can to make sure guns are not in the hands of the wrong people.
If you have a mental illness, you shouldn't have a gun. If you've threatened others or you threaten yourself, you shouldn't have a gun.
So I'm going to do everything I can to do that, at the same time, harden our schools, significant law enforcement presence and also make sure we share information. That's one of the issues that we deal with. We've got to share information when we know somebody has mental problems, you've got to be -- all the agencies, whether it's law or, you know, state agencies have to share information.
WALLACE: One of the things you're not doing that many Parkland students want is you're not banning assault weapons. Why not?
SCOTT: Well, I'm not into banning, you know, specific weapons. I think what you need to do is ban specific people from having weapons. Focus on the problem. We've got to focus on solutions that work -- banning the people that are going to potentially cause the problems. So it's all these things together.
But I'm against people that are going to potentially cause the harm and we know they are. There are so many -- I mean, look at what's common. These people are talking about what they're doing. They're threatening others.
This individual -- look at all the problems he had and it wasn't stopped.
WALLACE: Yes, I'm going to pick up on the lapses and that's certainly a big part of the problem, at least in this particular case.
But I want to focus on the guns just one more time. Look at these mass shootings in just a little over the last two years.
December 2015, San Bernardino, 14 dead. June 2016, Orlando, 49 dead. October 2017, Las Vegas, 58 dead. November 2017, Sutherland Springs, Texas, 26 dead. And now Parkland, 17 dead.
I understand, it's the person who fires the weapon. As you say, it's evil. But don't these assault weapons allow an evil person to kill more people, more quickly?
SCOTT: You know, when you think about any of these things -- I went to Pulse. You know, we had the airport shooting a little over a year ago and now, we have this -- I mean, your heart goes out to everybody that's been impacted.
So, you've got to weigh. You've got to weigh our constitutional rights, which I believe in, against public safety. So, and that's what I'm trying to do with this. And that's why it's not just one thing. It's everything.
I listened, I listened to law enforcement. I brought them up. I listened to educators. I listened to mental health people. I listened to students. I've talked to parents.
And I believe what we're doing will -- I believe it will stop this from happening. That's my goal. I want to do everything I can in my job right now to make sure this doesn't happen again.
WALLACE: President Trump wants to train and pay teachers to patrol the schools and if there's a shooter, to take them on. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And a teacher would have shot the hell out of him before he knew what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: He's talking about that a lot. You oppose arming teachers.
SCOTT: I disagree with him. I believe you've got to focus on people that are well-trained law enforcement, that are trained to do this. I want to make sure we have significant law enforcement presence on top of hardening the schools -- metal detectors and bulletproof glass, better perimeter fencing, all these things.
And the other thing is I want to give our sheriff's department in each county the authority to do, create the program on a per school basis, and that parents can feel comfortable that their child is going to a safe school.
WALLACE: But why not, if there's a teacher and -- you know, not every teacher, only teachers that are trained, only teachers that volunteer, that if there's a teacher in a classroom and the shooter doesn't know where that teacher is, why not?
SCOTT: I want our teachers to teach and I want our law enforcement officers to be able to protect the students. I want each group to focus on what they're good at.
WALLACE: As you mentioned, there were a number of security lapses in this particular case.
Last month, someone called the FBI tip line and said this: I know he, the shooter, is going to explode.
In November, the woman whose home the shooter was staying in called the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department, the 911, number and gave this warning.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROXANNE DESCHAMPS, HOUSED NIKOAS CRUZ: I cannot have him on the premises now. He put the gun in the head of this brother before, so -- it's not the first time and he did that to his mom.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
WALLACE: And reportedly, not one but several of the Broward County sheriff's deputies failed to get into the school while the attack was going on. What are you going to do about that?
SCOTT: First off, can you imagine being a parent that lost a loved one and know that all these failures, right? I mean, we've got to have accountability in this country.
With the FBI -- what happened? Tell us. They still -- this is -- you know, a week and a half after -- who was called? What was the process? How was it broken?
Give us the facts. Hold people accountable.
The local sheriff's department, they've got to be completely transparent. We have to do a thorough investigation and whoever didn't do their job has to be held accountable.
I talk to law enforcement around the state. There's no one I talk to that is not disgusted that the local sheriff's deputy that was there did not go in and kill that individual.
WALLACE: Governor, if the Florida legislature passes your entire package, if Congress passes everything that President Trump is talking about, what can you say to the young people, the students who are watching you right now? Will they be safe?
SCOTT: I'm going to do everything I can -- remember, I'm a father, I'm a grandfather -- one of the first things I said when this happened, I called each of my daughters and I said: Unfortunately, in your lifetime, you're going to have to teach your children how to deal with an acting shooter, that's unfortunate we're going to have to do that, we're going to do everything we can, but each one of us is going to have to be prepared.
WALLACE: Governor Scott, thank you. Thanks for coming in and we'll obviously be following how your package goes in the Florida legislature.
SCOTT: Thanks, Chris.
WALLACE: Coming up we will speak with two members of the Parkland community who lived through the school massacre and are now calling on lawmakers to make sure a tragedy like this never happens again.
WALLACE: One of the big differences between previous mass shootings and the tragedy in Parkland, Florida, has been the active response and eloquence of the survivors and the victims' families. Students like senior Delaney Tarr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELANEY TARR, SENIOR, MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL: The only reason that was gotten so far is because we are not afraid of losing money, we are not afraid of getting reelected or not getting reelected. We have nothing to lose. The only thing we have to gain at this point is our safety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And parents like Andrew Pollack, who lost his daughter Meadow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW POLLACK, FATHER OF VICTIM MEADOW POLLACK: There should have been one school shooting and we should have fixed it. And I'm pissed because my daughter I'm not going to see again! She's not here. She's not here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Delaney and Andrew join us now from Coral Spring, Florida, and I want to say right at the start how sorry all of us are for your loss and what you've had to go through.
Andrew, when you were at the White House, at that very raw, emotional moment, you said after 9/11 we fixed the situation. We made it a lot harder for people to get onto planes with guns. When you hear what Governor Scott just said, when you hear what President Trump is saying, would that fixed the problem?
POLLACK: It's not going to be fixed because I just heard what you said. What you are focusing on, polarizing this event, the murder of these kids. You are talking about gun control. I just had to listen to you and Governor Scott talk about gun control.
Gun control is a big issue. No one in America is going to gun together on gun control, Chris. We're here -- you didn't say one thing about fixing it. The American people, we could get together on school safety, but when you polarize it, this event and every other media, we don't care about gun control right now. That's a big issue in the country and you are not going to get everyone together on it.
But we are going to get everyone together on fixing our schools and I just listen to you. So, I just listen to you. You didn't talk -- you didn't mention one question to Governor Scott about what are we going to do about the security of our children? How are we going to do that?
But you are just talking about gun control, which is going to just give you more ratings and every other media or event. My daughter is dead, I want to know our kids are going to school in Kentucky on Monday, how are those kids safe? How about bringing that up to the media? How about bringing that up to Governor Scott?
Not about guns. It's not about guns now. Today, it's not about guns. It's about the safety in our schools.
And that's what you ask Governor Scott about and I got to listen to that at my house. My kid is not here because the schools weren't safe, that's the main thing. If you go into a courthouse, the judge is safe. The stenographer is not worried someone is coming in with a gun because they can't get in with a gun.
The American people, we just want our school safe. We don't want to talk about guns right now.
WALLACE: Well, let me bring -- let me bring in Delaney, I very much respect what you have to say, sir.
Delaney, your thoughts about what you are hearing from the governor and from the president, which is about a lot more than just guns. Guns as part of it, but they also are talking about hardening schools, about arming teachers. Your thoughts on what you are hearing?
TARR: It is -- it's a very multidimensional issue and he does -- Andrew did say, he said this is about school safety, and personally, I think that there is also an issue with the fact that he was able to access this weapon, this gun.
I -- personally, I do not believe that arming teachers is a solution here. I know many people, Marco Rubio, Rick Scott, they have also said that arming teachers is not a solution here. But there are many different issues that need to be addressed.
WALLACE: What do you think, Delaney? What are the issues that you think need to be addressed?
TARR: I absolutely do agree that we need to -- we need to address the failures that have created a situation like this, a horrible situation like this, all of the things that have failed us, all of the systems that have failed us. I think that we do need to focus on improving our school safety a little bit, on improving our officers, and I also believe that we need to make it harder for people to access guns when they are not mentally stable, when they are young, when they are not in a place where they should be owning a weapon like this.
WALLACE: Andrew, I want to go back -- I understand your strong feelings, but isn't this issue -- isn't this issue of mental health and trying to make sure that sick people don't have access to guns, isn't that part of the problem?
POLLACK: OK. But was that -- was that a big issue when we were protecting airports? Was that a big issue? I'm not saying it's not an issue, Chris. But when we were protecting our federal issues, is that a big issue?
We have our children in these classes which is -- that's the issue is OK. That could be worked out. But right now, the country just wants to come together and make our schools safe for our kids.
There is no other issue than our kids going to class and not thinking about some monster is going to stalk (ph) them in the hallway. That's what we need to focus on and we could all come together as Americans instead of other issues and those other issues -- I agree with you there are other issues there, but the main issue right now is fixing the schools.
WALLACE: So, let's talk specifically about that, sir. When you say fix the schools -- I mean, you've compared it to airports. Are you saying school security, ID checks? You tell me what it is that you would like to see.
POLLACK: I think that -- I'm not -- I'm not an expert in it but I think we need to hire the experts and check every school individually and make sure they are safe for the children, you know? There's a serious problem. Like I said, if the new norm has to be our kids are safe in school. This can't happen again. I can't let it happen to another kid in another state.
Like right now, Governor Scott, Governor Scott is doing what he had to do, but he also had to go visit the parents of dead kids for two weeks. I'm on right now today because I want to tell every governor in every other state -- they need to be proactive right now. They need to get a bill in place what all -- and we are going to put all America together and work with these governors to protect our schools.
We can't have another shooting in this country. I can't live with it and I'm -- this has -- this has to stop with Parkland and my daughter's death can't be in vain. It has to be the last one.
WALLACE: Andrew, what do you think about the teacher issue? And, you know, I know this must be incredibly painful, but now we hear the stories that there were police on the scene and they didn't go in, at least three sheriff's deputies were there and didn't go in. What --
POLLACK: Yes. One deputy that worked there, Peterson. He worked there and he's a coward. He was -- he stood by the door. I know is a fact he could have made it to the third floor and saved all six victims if he wasn't some little -- I can't even -- words can't even describe the way I think about him. But I'm not trying to think about that stuff because that's just negative and it's just going to make me toxic.
So, I just want to get the word out to the governors of every state that they have to do something now, today. Get together, they can call me, I have other dead parents here, we all want to help them, and let's make the school safe.
WALLACE: Delaney, when you hear that -- and it's not just the sheriffs or the deputies that didn't come in but all --
POLLACK: A lot of failures, Chris, that needs to be -- there's a lot of incompetence all around. I could write you a book on all the incompetence that happened at that school. But that's -- that's not going to fix it or bring any of our dead kids back. I just don't want any more dead kids.
And all that stuff is going to come out and I don't want to focus on that. I'm on with you, Chris, today to tell the American people that are messaging me, what we need to do is fix it now in every other school, make it the new norm now. You've got to have metal detectors. It's got to be like a courthouse, like a federal building, like an airport. That's how we need our schools now.
WALLACE: Delaney, you go back to school this week, how are you feeling about that?
DELANEY TARR, SENIOR, MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL: It's very daunting to imagine going back to a place that just two weeks prior held such horrors and it's scary because I don't know if I'm going to be safe there, but I know that I have to. I know that now more than ever I am proud of who I am and I feel like I need that sense of normalcy because in all of this, it's like I can't even be a high schooler anymore and I just want to be a high school senior again. And it's so hard to think about even doing that at this point.
WALLACE: Andrew, when we heard you at the president's listening session, and I speak as a parent and a grandparent, my heart broke for you, I'm sure a lot of people did around the country. How are you doing, sir?
POLLACK: It's rough. I have my moments, you know? It's like a wave. A wave of emotions but I have this fury, fire inside of me that's driving me that I can't explain it. I can walk through flames right now. I could -- there's nothing I can't do.
And I just want to get the word out to everybody in this country that it could happen to you. I'm a real. I'm a real guy. I grew up in Long Island. I didn't mean -- I never thought this could happen, and it happened.
There's parents here that came here to support me today. This young lady has to live within. It stops. And it's an easy fix, Chris, you know? You just need some competent people to get together and put the right plan in place and make it so the kids are safe. That's all -- you know, they've got to be safe in school.
WALLACE: Andrew, Delaney, thank you both for sharing your stories. Our hearts go out to both of you, but more important, we're going to stay on the story. I promise you, Andrew, I understand that it is not just a gun-control issue, and we are going to do everything that we can to make our schools safer and you are both welcome back anytime as part of that effort. Thank you both.
POLLACK: Thanks, Chris.
TARR: Thank you.
WALLACE: Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the push to respond to another mass murder and whether this time will be any different.
WALLACE: Coming up, the Democrats released their response to the Republican FISA memo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: That was really just a confirmation of, if you call it the Republican memo or the Nunes memo, it's referred to as a lot of things, but that was nothing but a confirmation.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
WALLACE: We'll speak with a key Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAYNE LAPIERRE, NRA CEO: Chris Murphy, Nancy Pelosi and more cheered on by the national media eager to blame the NRA and called for even more government control.
DANA LOESCH, NRA SPOKESPERSON: Many in legacy media love mass shootings. You guys love it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: NRA officials Wayne LaPierre and Dana Loesch going after Democrats and the media in the wake of the mass shooting in Florida.
And it's time now for our Sunday group.
GOP strategist Karl Rove, reporter for Axios Jonathan Swan, former Democratic Congresswoman Donna Edwards, and Kimberley Strassel of The Wall Street Journal.
Kim, you didn't go nearly as far as the NRA folks did, but you wrote a pretty tough column in "The Wall Street Journal" on Friday. I want to put some of it up.
You write, age limits and gun restrictions aren't an answer, they're a sideshow.
Do you agree with what we just heard from Andrew Pollack, with that's not the focus and it has to be on keeping school safe, hardening them like airports?
KIMBERLEY STRASSEL, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: The -- the -- I think that we're having progress this time after this because we are finally talking about the things that actually really matter. And they are, one, protecting vulnerable communities. It is no accident that these shooters go to places that are gun free zones because they know they'll be the only bad person with a weapon and no one there to stop them. And, two, mental health, particularly those with severe mental illness and how we both have to get treatment for these people, help them overall, but make sure that they do not have easy access to guns. And these have been the failings that have been consistent in nearly every one of these events.
WALLACE: Congresswoman Edwards, Kim writes in her column that raising age limits, banning weapons are empty gestures. Do you agree with her?
DONNA EDWARDS, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN (D-MD): Well, I mean, I think clearly somebody who's 19 or 21 who has a diagnosed mental illness that presents a danger is not going to be stopped from buying a gun. But what we have to do is that the difference in the -- in mass shootings is that somebody who shows up who has a weapon that's turned into an automatic weapon changes that place, kills more people. And so I think we do have to reinstate the assault weapons ban. I think that we do have to make sure that people who are prohibited really are prohibited and can't slip through and get a weapon anyway. And so these are things that are common sense measures that most Americans support. And the NRA has proven this last week, is completely out of -- out of step with the vast majority of the American people.
STRASSEL: Can I just -- I want to --
WALLACE: Go ahead.
STRASSEL: No one -- no one has used an automatic weapon in any event.
EDWARDS: They convert it. They have converted semiautomatic weapons to make them effectively automatic. The AR-15 --
STRASSEL: With a bump stock.
EDWARDS: The ARK-15, with a -- with a bump stock, with a magazine clip that, you know, fires in a rapid speed and -- and -- and more ammunition turns that into a much more dangerous --
WALLACE: But, congresswoman, there was -- you know, and I got a stern talking to from Andrew Pollack. And -- and part of what he's saying is, which -- which actually, I think, is a -- is a -- is an argument, you can argue whether he's right or wrong, is, you're going to have that argument. You and Kim are going to disagree. People in Congress are going to disagree. And their -- let's be honest, we're not going to ban assault weapons anytime soon. And he's saying, let's do what we can agree on, which is harden schools. Make them like airports, metal detectors, security guards, all of that.
EDWARDS: Well, we -- we could turn our schools into prisons and it's still not going to keep people who are able to go and get a weapon that they couldn't ordinarily get across a counter and in some other way from turning those weapons into weapons of war in our schools and our shopping malls and our churches. I mean we've seen this over and over again. And if the NRA wants to use its money to stand in the way of sensible gun legislation, they can do that. But I think these children have demonstrated, these young people have demonstrated this last week, that that is no longer acceptable.
WALLACE: Kim, and then I want to bring the gentleman in.
STRASSEL: But, no, we -- we need to be talking about mental illness. These people are -- getting rid of -- by the way, too, what Chris just said matters so much. You know and I know, we both know, no one's reinstating an assault weapons ban anytime soon. So we can spend the next two years fighting about that or we can actually do something proactive in the schools and in other vulnerable communities, churches. Again, no accident that these are the places that the targeters go out and go after.
WALLACE: Karl, we've seen all this way too many times and we almost know the script before it happens. There's a massacre. There is all this demand for change. There's a debate. And nothing happens.
President Trump said this week, this time is going to be different. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're talking about common sense. And it's a great thing. And the NRA will -- will back it. I really feel very confident the NRA will back it and so will Congress and so will the Senate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Is he right? Is the president right? Is this time different?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: It feels like it because principally the focus, while we've had the -- the traditional debate we've always had about weapons and guns, this debate, as Mr. Pollock so powerfully put it, is focused on keeping our school safe.
And, look, think about this. We had so many failures of our local law enforcement, 39 times this kids was -- the police were called about this kid. We had 911 warnings about his mental state. We had social media postings. The system failed.
We had an armed guard at -- stationed at the school who stood outside for four minutes while shots rang out inside. We had him joined by at least three other deputies who, again, stood outside while shots rang out and people were killed. And we had failures -- the FBI -- the FBI received on its -- on its -- on its --
WALLACE: So what's the answer?
KARL: Well, the -- the answer is, take a look at every one of those failures of those systems and fix them. Find out what other failures there are. This bill by Senators Cornyn and Murphy, a bipartisan answer to fix the problems in the federal registry. We had an action taken by the secretary of the Air Force which was far-reaching. She was the -- she was the one charged with -- after the shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, with -- with fixing the problem of the federal government having 7,000 Air Force personnel, I believe the number was, who should not have had weapons who were not in the database that would have kept them from getting weapons.
So -- but I think Mr. Pollack has hit it. This is about looking at our schools.
I had breakfast yesterday morning with my goddaughter, who's in high school in Frisco, Texas. And she talked about how it is routine for their teachers to lock the doors in the classroom. Now, I can't remember that when I went to high school.
WALLACE: No (ph).
ROVE: I cannot. But that's the world in which we live. And we've got to look at these places and say, what can we do to limit the number of access points, to increase the security, and to make it more less likely that if somebody attempts this kind of an act, they can be stopped and thwarted.
WALLACE: Jonathan, what are you hearing at the White House? Is the president -- how hard is he prepared to push the package that we're hearing about, some of which involve guns, some of which doesn't involve guns, and is it realistic to think that he's going to be able to bring, as he claims, Republican leaders who have killed gun legislation and a lot of these issues before, and the NRA along, because there're some issues here like the red flag law, like raising the age that are going to be very tough for the NRA to swallow?
JONATHAN SWAN, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, the few issues that he's hung up on, the -- raising the age limit, he's very passionate about that. Privately, immediately since the -- this terrible tragedy, he was saying kids can't be allowed to have done. He just kept saying that. And people would try to work out what he meant. And then finally he put a number around it. He said, if you're under 21, you shouldn't have a gun.
Well, I don't see that flying through Congress. I mean the right are not happy about that. And, you know, I've been getting text messages this morning, even just pointing to his interview last night with Jeanine Pirro, Judge Jeanine, he kept pushing that point. I don't see that getting anywhere in Congress.
The Cornyn bill, people talk about it like it's a fait accompli, you know, fixing this national instant background check. That's even going to be like, you know, not the easiest thing in the world. I think they can get it through. But the problem is, people will want to turn this into a Christmas tree. They'll want to attach every little thing that they've been wanting in terms of gun control. And that's the way you kill these bills.
So I think if they keep it kind of narrow and focused, they can get something done there. But the school safety issue seems to be the one that culturally Trump is most passionate about. And I think he's probably in the best position to change the conversation --
WALLACE: But -- but even on that issue, Jonathan --
SWAN: It's a state issue, right?
WALLACE: I was going to -- well, one is a state issue. Also the idea of the teachers.
SWAN: Right. Very controversial.
WALLACE: Even Governor Scott's against that.
SWAN: (INAUDIBLE). Yes.
STRASSEL: Well, look, I mean, too, I think you have to put it in the right framework. If you're talking about forcing or requiring teachers to do something like -- that's not going to fly. But, look, we know that probably the most law-abiding part of the public are people who have concealed carry permits. They've had to go through a lot of background checks. They've had to go through training. There's surely some teachers out there, quite a few probably, who have concealed carry permits. If they want to be more protected in the classroom, should we tell them no? I think that's a debate that needs to happen out there.
Otherwise ways just for teachers to protect, maybe give them a flash bang or something so that when someone runs in, they have some opportunity to help protect their kids. But those are the debates we need to be having.
EDWARDS: We don't have enough money to put firearms in schools. What we need to do is to make sure that our children are safe by making sure that people who have mental illnesses, who are otherwise prohibited, should not be able to get a weapon and take these weapons of war off the streets.
WALLACE: All right, we have to -- we have to break away here. I just -- I just want to say, though, as I listen to you, frankly, I'm discouraged because the same divisions that have stopped progress in the past, I'm worried that maybe it's going to stop it again.
ROVE: Be more optimistic.
WALLACE: Be more optimistic?
EDWARDS: Young people.
WALLACE: Well, I have to say, they have been --
EDWARDS: They will change it.
WALLACE: The one silver lining in this whole thing, the students.
Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday.
When we come back, the Democrats counter memo on alleged government surveillance abuses is not public. We'll speak with a key member of the House Intelligence Committee, next.
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX ANCHOR: Breaking now, the Democratic rebuttal to that Republican memo that alleged the FBI and Justice Department abused their powers to surveil a former Trump campaign official.
Joining us now from Connecticut, Congressman Jim Himes, the number two Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
Congressman, the Republican memo says that the FBI and the Justice Department based their application to the FISA court to surveil that Trump campaign adviser, Carter Page, based it on the so-called Steele dossier. In the memo, the Democratic memo, you say that's not true. Explain.
REP. JIM HIMES, D-CONN., INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Yes. So, Chris -- and -- and thanks for having me on.
You know, as the Democratic memo now makes plain, the application to the FISA court for a warrant to monitor Carter Page was not based on the Steele information. And -- and if we have time, we'll cover the question of whether the Steele information has been -- the Steele dossier has been in any way discredited because it largely hasn't. But, nonetheless, the point is that the -- as memo makes clear, Carter Page was of interest for his connections to the Russians for years before 2016. October of 2016. He had had all sorts of contact. He had been with the Russians. He'd been interviewed by the FBI. And so there's a long history of which the dossier is just a small part of that application to the Republican judges for a warrant.
WALLACE: But -- but let me -- but let me pick up on that because in the GOP memo that was put out by the majority, Devin Nunes and the majority, they make this statement. And I'm going to put up the quote from the memo. Deputy FBI Director McCabe testified before the committee on -- in December 2017 that no surveillance warrant would have been sought from the FISC, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, without the Steele dossier information.
Congressman, nowhere in your ten page memo do you and the other Democrats rebut that.
HIMES: That is true, but I was in the room. Devin Nunes was not in the room when Andrew McCabe was interviewed. And I will tell you that he did not say that. He did not say that a FISA warrant would not have been requested but for the Steele information.
Now he --
WALLACE: Well, then, why didn't you put that in your memo?
HIMES: Well, because the transcript of our conversation with Andrew McCabe was classified. And the Democratic memo -- this is important, Chris. The Democratic memo, unlike the Republican memo, contained no additional classified information that was made -- that was made public. So, again, I was in the room. Andrew McCabe did not say that the FISA warrant would not have been sought.
What he did say was that the warrant as -- the application itself, which, of course, went through all sorts of scrutiny at DOJ and then was scrutinized by a Republican federal judge, that all of its pieces were important. But he absolutely did not say that it would not have been filed had it not been for the dossier and for (INAUDIBLE).
WALLACE: All right, I want to get to this question of classified information in a moment, but I just want to follow up on the Steele dossier.
One of the Republicans' main complaints is that the government never informed the court -- when it sought the warrant to monitor Carter Page -- never informed them that the dossier had been paid for by the Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee.
You -- in writing the memo -- I say you collectively -- quote this from the application for the warrant. The FBI speculates that the identified U.S. person -- and you identify him as Glenn Simpson of Fusion GPS -- was likely looking for information that could have been used to discredit candidate number one's -- that's Donald Trump's -- campaign speculates likely.
Shouldn't the FBI have been a lot clearer to the court that the Steele dossier was bought and paid for by the Clinton campaign?
HIMES: Well, remember when Steele is doing this work, he doesn't know that fact. In other words, he's been hired by Fusion GPS, which has been hired by a law firm, which has been hired by the DNC and the Clinton campaign.
But to answer your question directly, Chris, you can read, and the American public can read, what was actually shown to the judge. It says that the individual who did this work was acting in a way that was designed to find dirt, not the exact word, but designed to find dirt on Donald Trump, was being paid, so why didn't the FBI, in the FISA, application name Clinton, DNC and Fusion GPS? It's a great question, Chris, because it has always been policy of the DOJ and the FBI, when you are doing these things, if there is an individual, an American individual, who is not under scrutiny, to refer to them as U.S. person one, U.S. person two.
And I remind you that the last fall scandal that Devin Nunes generated was around whether there had been improper unmasking of U.S. person information by Susan Rice, by Sam Power. We went through a whole investigation around that. And so now the Republicans are saying, well, they didn't specifically name Clinton and DNC. Well, that, of course, is the policy that FBI and DOJ have observed forever on these applications, not to name U.S. citizens.
WALLACE: Here is the reaction yesterday from the Republican chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DEVIN NUNES, R-CALI., INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIR: They are advocating that it's OK for the FBI and DOJ to use political dirt paid for by one campaign and use it against the other campaign. And I don't care who you are, a Republican, a Democrat or an independent, in the United States of America that is unacceptable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Doesn't Nunes have a point, sir?
HIMES: No, he doesn't. And, furthermore, he has no credibility. Again, we know that Devin -- Devin of the midnight run where he goes to the White House to get information to suggest that there had been wiretapping of Donald Trump. We know that that's not true. I referred to the unmasking scandal, which turns out not to be true. Now it turns out that the FBI used, as part of a much larger FISA application, some information that it received from Christopher Steele, a highly trusted source with a long history with the FBI --
WALLACE: But, wait. But at a certain point James Comey testified -- I think it was to your committee -- that the Steele dossier was unverified and salacious. So was it --
HIMES: So --
WALLACE: Was it reliable or was it unverified and salacious?
HIMES: Well, remember, unverified does not mean unreliable. Unverified means that the FBI has not been able to do all of their work to determine what is true and what is not true. That's the nature of raw intelligence.
But, Chris, I'm glad you bring up Jim Comey, because the whole premise of Devin's campaign here is that the FBI and the DOJ were biased against Donald Trump.
Chris, let's take a big step back here. In the campaign itself, while -- and now we know because you can read about it in the Democratic memo -- while there was an FBI investigation of the Trump campaign and of multiple individuals in the Trump campaign, you do not hear a word from the FBI about that very serious investigation about the possibility of Russian collusion with the campaign, but you hear Jim Comey, time and again out there, saying, we are investigating Hillary Clinton, now we're not investigating Hillary Clinton, now we're back to investigating Hillary Clinton.
A lot of people believe that Jim Comey's actions may have prevented Hillary Clinton from becoming president of the United States. But Devin's contention is that, oh, well, the FBI and the DOJ are actually biased against Donald Trump. I've got to tell you, if there was any bias within the FBI and the DOJ, they should -- they had a very, very weird way of showing it during the campaign itself.
WALLACE: Well, here you're getting to -- to the bottom line because all -- for all the talk about dueling memos, which I think are confusing a lot of people, and the surveillance of Carter Page, most people want to know one thing, is there hard evidence that Donald Trump and/or his campaign colluded with the Russians to interfere with the 2016 election? As you sit here today as the number two Democrat on the House Intel Committee, do you have any evidence of that or not?
HIMES: What we know -- and I'm not going to sort of preview what any of the investigations are going to do -- what we know is that two of the Trump campaign's foreign policy advisors have now either pled guilty or -- or been indicted. And the national security advisor for Donald Trump has pled guilty to lying about contacts with Russia. We know that those contacts exist. We know that George Papadopoulos had conversations with Russia. Carter Page --
WALLACE: But -- but -- but-- but forgive me, sir, there's no evidence in any of that, at least so far, that there was collusion.
HIMES: Well, it depends on how you define collusion. When George Papadopoulos hears from somebody associated with the Russians that they're about to release a whole bunch of information and then they do, when Donald Trump Jr. invites Russians into his office in order to get dirt on the Clinton campaign. Chris, you tell me if that crosses your threshold for collusion. But that is hardly really (INAUDIBLE) innocent (ph).
WALLACE: Well, frankly, sir, as long as you asked, no, it doesn't. I mean -- I mean you can say that they were conversations, but that certainly doesn't indicate there was a conspiracy by the Trump campaign and the Russian -- and the Kremlin to -- to interfere. I mean that indicates that there were -- there were contacts, but it certainly doesn't -- are you basing it on -- on that?
HIMES: Well, again, I'm not jumping to conclusions as to what the investigations that are not finished yet are going to show. I'm just going to tell you that if nothing else, if the president of the United States' son says, boy, do I want to get dirt on Hillary Clinton and I can't wait to release it during the summer when it will do the maximum damage, and he knows that the individuals concerned are Russian -- and, by the way, this is not the investigation, this is Donald Trump Jr. admitting to this meeting when, you know, you have 20 indictments, some of which are -- most of which are Russian related, let's just say, without trying to prejudice where this investigation is going to go, it's like -- it's -- you can't say that there is absolutely no there there. There were multiple contacts.
WALLACE: Congressman --
HIMES: There was a desire to get information. You know, there's more work yet to be done here, Chris.
WALLACE: Congressman -- Congressman Himes, thank you. Thanks for your time. Let's continue this conversation. We'll stay on top of where your committee goes from here.
HIMES: Thanks very much, Chris.
WALLACE: Up next, our "Power Player of the Week." How one man's hoppy led to a discovery 100 million years in the making.
WALLACE: Dinosaurs, space flight, a time machine. This story has it all. Is it this summer's blockbuster movie? No, it's our "Power Player of the Week."
RAY STANFORD, ARMATURE PALEONTOLOGIST: It was almost unbelievable. I couldn't sleep for two nights. It's like you've walked into the twilight zone and you -- you can't believe what you've seen.
WALLACE (voice over): Ray Stanford is a 79-year-old amateur paleontologist.
STANFORD: Well, that's interesting.
WALLACE: And he's talking about what he saw in the summer of 2012 after having lunch with his wife Sheila who worked at the Goddard Space Flight Center.
STANFORD: From my car, about 90 feet away, I spotted a smooth, light brown rock sticking out. And it looked like the kind of material that we sometimes find tracks in.
WALLACE: When he says tracks, Stanford is talking about dinosaur tracks.
STANFORD: Much to my surprise, the nicest, nodosaur track that I've ever seen anywhere, I think. Then it dawned on me, this is Goddard Space Flight Center. They're looking out into space millions of years ago, (INAUDIBLE) down to the earth 110 million years ago. And I thought, wow, this is a wonderful paradox. I want to write some poetry.
WALLACE: Stanford's excitement is understandable because he's been hunting dinosaur fossils and tracks for the last quarter century. And he's made hundreds of finds.
STANFORD: Yes, this is a mammal footprint from 110, 112 million years ago.
WALLACE: One of them is in the Smithsonian.
STANFORD: It was the first hatchling nodosaur, an armored dinosaur, that
had never been found in the whole world.
WALLACE: But there was a problem with his latest discovery. The Gotthard Center was putting up a new building there, so they excavated the 4 tons stone and made a fiberglass cast of it, which Stanford got to study in his basement. And that's when the excitement really started.
STANFORD: Well, this was the nodosaur track, the first find with the baby walking right -- right across it.
WALLACE (on camera): So this is the big dinosaur and this is a baby.
STANFORD: That's the baby of the same species.
WALLACE (voice over): But along what appears to have been a prehistoric floodplain, there were more than 70 tracks of eight different species.
STANFORD: Mammal tracks here, some scratching around over there, mammal tracks here. You had theropods flesh eating small (INAUDIBLE) walking across here.
WALLACE (on camera): So the theropods are here tracking the mammals?
STANFORD: That -- well it certainly would appear because they're walking so slowly.
WALLACE: How do you know that they're walking slowly?
STANFORD: Because they're so close together.
WALLACE: They're creeping.
STANFORD: Yes. And we've -- we've done a calculation. They're moving less than a half-mile-per-hour.
WALLACE (voice over): That's what Stanford says was so exciting. Fossils show how these animals died, but tracks showed how they lived.
STANFORD: I was looking into a time machine and could see these big flying reptiles landing and the little theropods sneaking around, looking down at these little mammals digging in -- maybe that wouldn't affect most people that way, but it sure affected me that way.
WALLACE: Stanford's find was announced in January. He calls it a snapshot created before more animals had a chance to cover the tracks.
STANFORD: I suspect that a flood came after this had had a chance to dry out just a little bit, a flood came and covered it and preserved it.
WALLACE (on camera): So Washington really was a swamp?
STANFORD: Oh, indeed. It's been a swamp for over 110 million years.
WALLACE (voice over): Stanford will keep looking for signs of dinosaurs. But he knows where this discovery ranks.
STANFORD: If anybody tells me I'm going to find anything more interesting and important than, I'll tell them they're probably crazy. It's -- it absolutely is like hitting the jackpot. Not monetary wise, but in the wonderful satisfaction of contributing something the world of scientists and paleontology has never seen before. That, to me, makes my 80 years' worth living.
WALLACE: Ray Stanford refuses to sell any of his finds. Instead, he donates them to be studied by scientists and share with the public.
And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."
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