'The Five' debate the fallout from Flynn's deal with Mueller
Former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI, as part of a deal that involves his full cooperation with investigators in Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia probe.
This is a rush transcript from "The Five," December 1, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
DANA PERINO, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Rachel Campos-Duffy, Richard Fowler, Tucker Carlson and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5:00 in New York City, and this is The Five. A Fox News alert, an avalanche of news today, we'll get to the stunning Steinle verdict out in San Francisco in just a moment. But we begin with a breaking new development on the Mueller investigation in Washington. Today, former national security advisor Michael Flynn appeared in federal court and pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his conversations with Russian's ambassador during the transition last December, his plea agreement indicates he is providing information to the special counsel that is advancing the investigation. Chief intelligence correspondent, Catherine Herridge was inside the courthouse earlier and joins us now with the very latest details. Anything new, Catherine, since we've spoken at 2:00?
CATHERING HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the most interesting developments comes out of reporting by another one of our colleague, Bret Baier. We were able to get information that in the spring of this year, FBI director James Comey testified in the closed door session that his agents has concluded that Flynn made some sort of bad decisions or didn't remember things properly, seemed kind of confused about the timeline of events in December, but they didn't believe he had deliberately misled them. That's significant because if you fast forward to today, about seven months later, the special counsel investigators under Robert Mueller had concluded something very different, that there was a deliberate effort by Flynn to mislead the FBI about Flynn's contacts with the Russian ambassador and Flynn agreed in court today. What I would say about his appearance in court today is that he was very composed, he seems to really reached inside himself and have that soldier's discipline, and that 33 years of service in the military allowed him to hold it together as he made that guilty plea which is a felony.
The other interesting thing we're looking at tonight is that in the court records there were unsealed, the references to what appears to be two members of the Trump transition team, a more junior person who received information from Flynn at Mar-a-Lago in December about these conversations with the Russian ambassador. We believe that to be K.T. McFarland at this point. And then a more senior person who was directing Flynn to reach out to a number of countries including Russia, and we believe that to be Jared Kushner. But I would give you this caveat, we were told that it wasn't like Kushner was saying to Flynn you go out and just talk to the Russians. It was a kind of divvying up of the phone calls. There were different teams for different countries. And they were all tasked with a certain amount of outreach at that time. So it's not quite as sinister sounding perhaps as it is in the black-and-white of the court documents. But we believe the very senior person was Jared Kushner and that he testified to that in his session with the special counsel in November, Dana.
PERINO: All right. Catherine Herridge, thanks so much.
HERRIDGE: You're welcome.
PERINO: We'll take it around the table. I worked for the justice department for about a year and know to approach these things with caution. So I'm just waiting to see what else is going to happen out of this. I don't think that we know the full story yet. What do you think, Greg?
GREG GUTFELD, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: Well, I always like to focus on the media. And the media they remind me of a contestant on Price is Right. They're expecting a brand new car which was Russian collusion, and instead they got a crock pot, which is a lie. A single crime committed by pleading guilty to it. Single isolated event that has nothing to do with Russian collusion because it happened after the election. So the ecstatic media is going to be ecstatic for a few days, but then it's going to wear off. And they're going to realize that this is a far cry from what they really wanted and they're actually seeding turf on this. But this is far from what they dreamt. What really bugs me about this is if you look at why the meeting took place. Why was the contacts made? Was it anything nefarious? No, it was something noble -- in my opinion, noble and correct, was to get Russia involved in fighting terror and fighting ISIS. Actually, their version of a reset button that actually made kind of sense, which we may or may not have happened, I don't know. But that's what this was about in my opinion. Tucker, you're giving me that weird look you give people on your show.
(LAUGHTER)
TUCKER CARLSON, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: No, I'm actually agreeing with everything you say.
GUTFELD: You say that to that people you're about to yell at. You say I agree completely.
CARLSON: But in this case it's heart felt.
GUTFELD: OK.
CARLSON: No, I actually think that General Flynn did do something wrong. In fact in defensible, he took money from a foreign government, influence American policy when he was on his way to being national security advisor from the Erdogan government in Turkey. I don't think you can defend that. I'm ashamed that he did that. And that's not what he's being punished for. He's being punished for lying which is the classic charge you level when you don't really have the underlying charge proved. But more of the point is there a crime in contacting Russia to talk about how to coordinate your effort in Syria against ISIS? That's seem not.
PERINO: But maybe he's getting the chance to do this guilty plea because.
CARLSON: For sure.
PERINO: . of something.
CARLSON: There's a lot.
PERINO: I mean there's a lot.
CARLSON: But what bugs me is the idea that speaking to Russia is in itself a crime.
RICHARD FOWLER, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: I don't think that's what the prosecuting documents are saying.
CARLSON: What are they saying?
FOWLER: The prosecuting documents said that he lied to the FBI, number one. And I think they used that as sort of a carrot and stick to say we will charge you for just this one crime so you can tell us what else you know. In his statement to the press he indicated I plan on fully cooperating with the special counsel.
CARLSON: I get it. But what is the underlying crime?
FOWLER: We don't know that yet because it's still sealed. And not to mention the fact that talking -- when you are a transitioning government, when the Obama administration was still the government in control, talking to a foreign agency about what a -- foreign entity of what you will and will not do is against the Logan Act, which said that only one administration can talk to a foreign government at one time. So he did violate a law, but we'll have to see what Mueller does here.
RACHEL CAMPOS DUFFY, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: But how is that more different than when Obama said I'll have more flexibility after the election. I mean, I think that Gregory.
FOWLER: When did he say that?
DUFFY: Obama said that.
(CROSSTALK)
DUFFY: What I mean is that it's a transition, and they're signaling to these people, these others countries, that policies are going to change. I think that Gregory brings up a really good point about.
GUTFELD: Thank you very much. Look past your first show.
(LAUGHTER)
PERINO: That's all it takes.
(CROSSTALK)
DUFFY: But I think you bring up a point. There is a giddiness, kind of like the giddiness we saw with Rachael Maddow when she thought she had the big taxes thing. I think you're right. They got a crock pot here because in the end what they really want to do is not Russia. What they really want to do is stop the Trump agenda. And Trump was just the vehicle for this agenda. The America people still wants all the things that Trumps want to do. They still want those policies and those ideas to come forward. So whether all of this Russia stuff happens or not I think it leads to Democrats again down this little street off of what they need to do. And what they need to do is figure out why they lost working class Americans, because we know that's why they lost the election and not Russia.
FOWLER: So Rachel, I'll give you that. And I've said that before. I think Democrats need to work on our messaging. We need to learn how to talk to blue collar voters and some white collar voters. And I'm not impeachment Democrat. Like let's go impeach him. I'm actually waiting for all of the facts to come out, so that over and over again. But when you look at where we are right now, the fact that Mike Flynn one of the highest officials in Donald Trump's national security apparatus had said he's going to work with the special counsel prosecuting -- looking into this Russia collusion. I think that's a big deal.
CARLSON: Hold on. Slow down. Is that what he said? I'm going to look into collusion with Russia collusion about what? The context that we know.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Let me finish my question here and then you could inform of this. What would the collusion look like, potentially?
FOWLER: I have no idea. That's what I'm trying to figure out.
CARLSON: I think.
PERINO: After the election.
CARLSON: It was after the election, so what would they be colluding on exactly?
(CROSSTALK)
GUTFELD: It doesn't matter. That how it started. The whole premise was about the election, but they really don't care about the election. This is about unseating a president.
(CROSSTALK)
FOWLER: I'm sorry, I have to say that that's just not true because if you look at all -- you're looking at the Flynn indictment in a vacuum and you can't do that. You have to look at Flynn, you have to look at Papadopoulos, you have to look at Manafort. But Manafort was indicted for things that happened during the convention, prior to the election. Papadopoulos, he was in meetings prior to the election. Before we sit here and say, oh, you can't look at Flynn in a vacuum.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What are you saying?
FOWLER: I don't know. That's what Dana said, we don't know what it means. We have an expert prosecutor. The best in the country.
CARLSON: What might it mean? Like, what's the worst case scenario?
FOWLER: I don't want to make any assumptions.
(CROSSTALK)
GUTFELD: Rigged the Sochi Olympics, that's what we're going to find out.
FOWLER: I'm sorry. I don't think there is any confusion to be had here. I think Mueller is looking into whether or not Trump and his associates talked to the Russians, worked with the Russians, colluded with the Russians.
CARLSON: About what?
FOWLER: We already know that the Russians engaged in our election and they jeopardized our democracy, number one.
CARLSON: We don't know that.
(CROSSTALK)
FOWLER: The DNI said multiple intelligence agencies over and over had said that the Russians tried to compromise our election. That is a fact.
DUFFY: Can I tell you what Trump really is guilty of.
CARLSON: That's not a fact, Richard.
FOWLER: It is a fact.
DUFFY: Trump is guilty of bad judgment. A lot of people told him not to give that very high level position to Flynn.
CARLSON: Agree.
DUFFY: But this is a very common rookie mistake. Dana, you know this, you're in politics. And that a lot of candidate, first time candidate -- remember, we're talking about a first time candidate, he's our president but he's a first time candidate. You feel very loyal to the people that brought you to victory. And so, I think he has -- Trump had a very typical first candidate mistake of giving a job to somebody who was on the campaign, who probably shouldn't have that job. And look, he only lasted 20 some days. So they reverse course for the right.
CARLSON: Well, he was lobbying for the Turkish government.
DUFFY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not defending Flynn. I wish he were being punished for the actual crime.
DUFFY: Thank you.
PERINO: He might be. I mean, maybe the reason he's not being punished for the actual crime is for some reason that we don't know. And I think that -- this is why this takes a long time. It might be wrapped up sooner than we think. But remember, it was also President Obama who told President Trump be careful of this guy. It's Sally Yates who goes to them at the -- goes to the White House and the justice department and said I think you have a problem here. She gets fired. The president is calling for Comey to go easy on Flynn. That's how they ended up with the special counsel. I don't know how all of this falls together, but it's certainly not nothing. And by the way, I agree -- nothing here when you're calling to Russia to say, hey, we want to establish contact, no problem. Somebody like Mike Flynn who is a seasoned patriot, 33 years in the military, why lie about that? That's the thing that I don't understand, but he pled guilty to it today.
DUFFY: But wasn't it the FBI also -- but why Mueller also -- or do we know if he is.
PERINO: No, but why the underlying, why lie?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Let me put it this way. Why lie? I haven't the faintest idea. But I do know having known a number of people who've been busted on lying to a federal agent thing? I don't want as appear to be defending someone I've just attacked for lobbying for Turkey, but we're vesting for too much trust in the FBI. Do you have any idea what it looks like when they come after you? You know anyone who's been gone after by the FBI?
PERINO: Very well.
CARLSON: I do too. I do too.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: My question is -- I like the FBI and I support America law enforcement. But which is a potentially a greater threat to you, Mike Flynn or the FBI, it's not a close call. So I don't think we just assume that because someone plead to lying that there's an actual crime in that.
DUFFY: He said he's a broken man. His house in under -- he's selling his house, his finances are in trouble. These are all very good motivations to cooperate.
PERINO: All right. Well, I think we're going to finish that up, right? OK. Much more ahead, widespread outrage after a five-time deported illegal immigrant is cleared in the murder of Kate Steinle. Right back with our reaction.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Now to a stunning verdict since O.J. Last night in San Francisco, the illegal immigrant at the center of the sanctuary cities debate in America was acquitted of murdering 32-year-old Kate Steinle on a pier in San Francisco 2 years ago. The jury sided with the defense which argued the shooting was accidental. The jury only found Jose Zarate guilty of being a felon in possession of a firearm. The jury was not told about the 7 felonies he had been convicted of, or the fact he was deported 5 times. President Trump calls that verdict disgraceful, and yet another reason to build a wall. The president predicts Democrats will pay a big political price for it in the next two elections for the weaknesses on crime and immigration. Meanwhile, Zarate's attorneys wasted no time at all in politicizing the whole thing, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: For those who might criticize this verdict, there're a number of people that have commented on this case in the last couple of years, the attorney general of the United States, the president and vice-president of the United States. Let me just remind them that they are themselves under investigation by a special prosecutor in Washington, D.C. And they may themselves soon avail themselves of the presumption of innocence and beyond a reasonable doubt standard. And so I would ask them to reflect on that before they comment or disparage the results in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: That was Matt Gonzalez. Not just an attorney, by the way, also a politician. He ran on the green party ticket for vice president with Ralph Nader back in 2008. You may remember him if you voted that ticket. The justice department has just filed an arrest warrant for Zarate. I have to say, Dana, the first thing that jumped out -- jumped on my mind when I saw this was -- first, how widely politicized it was. Like O.J., the lawyers potentially to make it about something bigger about Trump, deportation, the wall.
PERINO: Except for not in the courtroom.
CARLSON: Outside the courtroom.
PERINO: That's the thing -- that's what I thought of which is -- I sat on a jury once in California. I do think the person was guilty. The prosecution's case was so weak and so poorly presented that we couldn't get there as a jury. I do have to wonder why would not any of these other information been important to provide to the jury so that they could make this decision?
DUFFY: Is it judge that decides that.
PERINO: I don't know why the prosecution decided to do it that way.
CARLSON: What we know, Rachel, is this guy was a homeless illegal immigrant who'd been deported five previous times. Had a drug problem, admitted taking drugs right before this, was holding a gun when it fired and shot Kate Steinle. By the way, anybody with firearms knows, it was a federal gun.
PERINO: right.
CARLSON: It was taken from a BML officer. It didn't have a 2 pound trigger pull, that's a lie. So like just knowing those facts, how could you acquit?
DUFFY: It doesn't make any sense to me except for what Dana brought up which is that these things were not presented to the jurors, and so they made a decision without some of this information, which means it's an incomplete -- I mean, information is power. And so, how do you make a right decision? I will say, I do think -- they didn't just politicize it. They obviously also racialized it. And I think that there is a feeling among Democrats when they watch this. I wonder, do they really think this is how you win over Hispanics? I'm Hispanics. I know that Hispanics comes to this country because of lack of rule of law in their own country.
CARLSON: Right.
DUFFY: Unless you are on the far, far, far left where you think there should be open borders, I don't know how they think that coming and supporting this verdict or anyway saying this is the right decision wins over people. Hispanics still want to live in a country that's safe. Still wants to live in a country where somebody who shoots an innocent person goes to jail. I'm really confused about this.
CARLSON: Sure. I don't think most people are looking at this as -- obvious why you wouldn't see through a racial lens. I wonder, Richard, as honest as you can, if this had been the opposite, if Kate Steinle had murdered an illegal immigrant in San Francisco and was acquitted for it, how many fires were be burning right now in San Francisco?
FOWLER: I think you have to -- he's to back this train up a little bit. Let's talk about the politicization of it. I think it was politicize -- I mean, the left might have done some -- they might politicize, but the right also -- I mean, Donald Trump did a press conference.
CARLSON: Yes, he did.
FOWLER: I mean, he continue -- then the congress, they put -- they pass -- they quickly put together Kate's law. So, I mean, Republicans are guilty for politicizing this case as well.
CARLSON: Do you see a political element at those since he was released against the request of the Obama administration, federal authorities back in 2015 by the city because there's a sanctuary cities policy.
(CROSSTALK)
FOWLER: Listen, I'm not saying that we don't need some sort of immigration reform. When I say immigration reform I don't mean amnesty. When I say immigration reform I mean border security coupled with dealing with the 11 million people living here in the shadows, also dealing with those who've committed crimes in this country and how we get them out. We need all three of those things together. And I think the idea to say that, you know, immigration reform is just amnesty is wrong. This guy shouldn't be in the country. I agree there. But he does not represent the other 11 million individual who come to this country, they play by the rules. They work really hard. This guy is not one of them. And so to lump him in as we've seen folks on the right do with them is unfortunate.
CARLSON: Yeah. I don't know if they're living on the shadows. I have a lot of people here illegally on my show bragging about their status. I wonder if this is evidence that the Democratic Party has changed. Hillary Clinton actually criticized the city of San Francisco two years ago for letting this guy out. Can you imagine a Democratic leader today criticizing a sanctuary city policy?
GUTFELD: Yeah. I mean, to risk using a cliche, this is why Trump won because this is a reminder that -- you keep shaking your head, Richard.
FOWLER: I will.
GUTFELD: At least we now know what it takes to get deported from a sanctuary city. First, you've got to kill somebody, then you've got to go to court, then you get acquitted, and now you get deported. Look, if a law was in place that has been followed would have prevented this. That eternal truth exists. Independent of what ever happened in that courtroom. One of the problems with this case is that we talk about justice for month, but we were talking about immigration reform. We were not actually talking about the case. In October when we brought up the case here on this table, I said there was a possibility of an acquittal because of the whole ricocheted bullet thing. People said, no, that's impossible. I don't understand what an accidental killing is not involuntary manslaughter, because by definition an accidental killing is involuntary manslaughter. They've made the mistake of going for murder.
PERINO: Right.
GUTFELD: Maybe they did that on purpose. I don't know. But if they stuck in involuntary manslaughter he might have found guilty on that. But the fact is, you know, national security, border, law enforcement, these are the three legs on the table that Trump ran on. And as long as you see things like this happening he's going to remain in power. So you can sit here and go, hey, this is a gloat over this horrible mis-justice or injustice.
FOWLER: I agree with you. I think that murder -- involuntary manslaughter should be a charge, and I think there's a lot of police officers who shot unarmed black men should be charged.
(CROSSTALK)
GUTFELD: That has nothing to do with this story.
CARLSON: We're going to take a quick break. We have more on the subject. You're getting a taste of how exciting this is going to be when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DUFFY: Back now with more on the Kate Steinle verdict. The acquittal of illegal immigrant Jose Inez Garcia Zarate. A spokeswoman for the justice department believes that San Francisco sanctuary policy is to blame for Steinle's murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a person who's been deported 5 times and kept returning. He intentionally went to San Francisco he said because he knew about their sanctuary policies. He's been convicted of multiple crimes including drug crimes. This is a person who never should have been on that pier and Kate Steinle would still be alive today if he hadn't been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DUFFY: Dana, what are the political implication of all this? I mean, we see there's all these legal things that we've talked about before, but there are some real politics that are going to be affected.
PERINO: This is a case, I guess, it is known nationally. We talked about it on this show, like some things used to happen in the city would never have been known federally -- sorry, nationally, but because everything now is politicized and it is also on cable news. But this one I think is for good reason. Sometimes you have a case that is a flash point for additional action. That's been true for some of the black lives matter situations. But this one in particular I think makes those cities that are sanctuary cities have to answer to citizens to say why are we doing this? Why does this make sense? I understand there are some police officers and especially the sheriff's association the things that sanctuary cities are actually better for them for crime fighting purposes. If that is really what they believe, then they need to do a much better job of convincing the rest of America that that is the case. That's not universal agreement with those associations, but certainly there are police officers that say that. And so, I think this will come to a head, and I would imagine that Kate Steinle might get justice if the federal charges that were just announced right before we came to air are successful and make perhaps that prosecution will be better.
DUFFY: And Greg, do you think that DACA and all the momentum that was behind it -- does this change how that's going to be resolved in any way?
GUTFELD: I don't think so, not with our attention span.
DUFFY: You don't think border security is now going to be more likely to be addressed as part of that?
GUTFELD: I don't know. I don't know. I guess so. I'm interested in, like, the fact that as a country we can't handle all of these unexploded shells that are all over the country. Men that are -- that should be in places not on streets.
So it doesn't matter -- to me, it matters this guy is illegal, because it could -- because it could have been prevented. There are people like in this all cities right now, that are just wandering. They should be in institutions. They should be getting help. They should be back in their own countries. But we have no way of actually figuring this problem out. And if you walk around New York you see it everywhere.
You look at -- Southern California right now is just unbelievable. It is just cities of men, you know, doing horrible things in public. Because that's -- you can't institutionalize them, and they're mentally ill. And I think this guy was actually mentally ill.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Right. But it was preventable because he should have been deported five times, though.
Richard, I mean, the president won on the issue of immigration and people's frustration with it. And we sort of touched on it. I don't even think any of the other Republican candidates were willing to touch this.
What is the response now, do you think, from the Democrats? I mean, they're seeing this. There's a reaction to this. The American people, I think, in general, think this person should not have been in the country, that we should have stronger immigration -- do you think that this is going to cause the Democrats to be more entrenched in their position or to maybe come around a little bit in hopes of winning over some of the people that they loved (ph)?
FOWLER: I actually agree with Dana on this. I think this is a flash point. This Kate Steinle case is the flash point. And hopefully -- I doubt it will happen; maybe I'm just an idealist -- but hopefully, in Washington, we saw what happened a couple years ago when the Gang of Eight got together and tried to put together where Democrats and where Republicans are and meet in the middle. And I think we have an opportunity to do it here. We can -- like I said in the last segment, there are 11 million people here living in the shadows. We have students who have come to this country and no fault of their own who want to be Americans, who pay their taxes and do everything right.
And at the same time, Democrats have said, Chuck and Nancy, as Donald Trump likes to call them, has said that they'll willing to work with the president on border security. So they're willing to work with the president on border security, and Republicans are willing to say, "OK, we can't deport 11 million people tomorrow. Then let's come to the middle and figure out how we get true, real comprehensive immigration reform." Because our immigration laws are broken. They're almost as old as me.
GUTFELD: What if we treated the gun...
FOWLER: They are broken, Tucker.
GUTFELD: What if we treated the gun laws the way Democrats treat immigration laws, how would you feel about that? If we just ignored them? Right? All those gun control laws that you call for after a shooting, what if we said, "We don't care. We're going to do open carry. We're going to have a sanctuary city for open carry. We don't care."
CARLSON: They'd flip out. I mean, look, the truth is...
FOWLER: That's what you guys are doing now.
CARLSON: That's not true. That's not true. The lesson of the last election, as you noted, is that a large group of people who used to vote Democrat no longer do.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: That's right.
CARLSON: However, Democrats have made no meaningful effort to win them over. Instead, they have made a clear and conscious decision to import new voters to replace them. And that is why that party moved has radically to the left to the no-border position. You can't find...
FOWLER: No. We don't...
CARLSON: What do you mean? I do this every -- I do this every night.
FOWLER: Tucker, I hear you. I hear you!
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You can say that all you want, but the truth is...
FOWLER: I hear you, but when...
CARLSON: There's no concession -- let me just finish. Hold on. Sit down (ph). Nancy Pelosi spoke to a group of people who came to this country illegally last month and said, "I congratulate you for doing that." If you have the chief lawmaker of the Democratic side congratulating people for breaking the law she passed, something has really changed. That's the point.
FOWLER: When -- when Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer go to the White House and say, "Mr. President, we're willing to work with you on border security," I don't know what else you want from Democrats. That's not open borders. That's not open borders.
CARLSON: I can't tell whether you're naive or disingenuous, but the truth is...
FOWLER: I'm not either naive or disingenuous.
CARLSON: This president was just elected on the promise to build a wall. So would that -- would that be part of the conversation...
FOWLER: Where is the wall?
CARLSON: You're suggesting? He hasn't built it.
FOWLER: Thank you. Moving on.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: I do think -- I do think the irony, before we move on -- I do think the irony is that Donald Trump, of all people, is the one person who actually can make immigration reform happen. Because...
FOWLER: I agree.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: ... he wants -- because border security was the only thing holding up immigration reform.
PERINO: I do think that we should say, like...
(CROSSTALK)
CAMPOS-DUFFY: I think we need that.
PERINO: You said that none of the other candidates were willing to put -- go forward with it. But Ted Cruz actually did introduce the Kate Steinle Law in the Senate.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Ted Cruz...
PERINO: That the Republicans were united in the Senate. It did pass the House. It was the Democrats that filibustered it.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Agreed. But no one believes more -- people, the American people believe Donald Trump more than any of the other candidates that he will actually, genuinely secure the border. So I think that's why I put some...
FOWLER: But he hasn't. He's sitting there for ten months, and we're still waiting on a wall.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: That's OK, but border...
CARLSON: Are you anxiously waiting for one?
FOWLER: No.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Border crossings are down 70 percent.
CARLSON: Why are you against the wall?
FOWLER: I don't think the wall solves anything, because if you build a 13-foot wall, they're going to build a 14-foot ladder.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: We have to move on.
CARLSON: I've seen that bumper sticker.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: All right, we've got to -- we've got to move on. Republicans say they've secured enough votes to clear the tax bill through the Senate. President Trump appears to be on the verge of his first major legislative victory. We'll talk about that, up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOWLER: "We have the votes." Senator Majority Leader Mitch McConnell proudly announced today that Republicans have secured enough support to pass their sweeping overhaul of our nation's tax system. Arizona Senator Jeff Flake was the key holdout, but he backed the plan this afternoon. A final vote could come as early as tonight or even tomorrow.
What's your take? What's your take on this, Rachel?
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, first of all, this is great news. And not the best bill, but this is -- you know, you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I think that, you know, we've seen a lot of talk from the Bannon side of the Republican Party and others, like "Throw these bums out. Let's start new. Let's get new blood."
I think this makes the case for why someone like Mitch McConnell, who understands how to navigate the legislative process, can cobble these votes together. This was not easy to do.
I predict also that, if they made the right changes, we may see that it will not go to conference. That the House may just vote on what they have there. Because everyone is afraid of going back to the Senate where it's tough to get those votes.
So I think you might -- you might see the House vote on the Senate bill as is.
FOWLER: Dana.
PERINO: And that's how a bill becomes a law.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Do you think that's...?
PERINO: Yes, I think it's possible. Because I think they don't want to talk about it anymore. They just want to get -- they want to be able to go home and say, "We did this."
And then I think that what will happen is that the Republicans who used to be concerned about the deficit will hope that the economic growth is what they hope it will be. And then the -- the Republicans and the Democrats will have a debate about the results.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: That's right.
PERINO: But I do think they want to get to yes and get it over with.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: And I think that the results already of Trump's economic agenda are doing well. I live in Wisconsin, as you guys know. I have brothers-in-laws [SIC] and sisters-in-laws [SIC] who are small business owners. They can't keep up with the orders. They're turning customers away. They're turning down jobs. Places that were the forgotten America -- this is rural Wisconsin.
Donald Trump has a lot of credibility on economics. He went out and sold this tax plan, as it's going to help. I actually, you know -- though I wish it could have been more bold, I'm a big flat tax person. I wish we had gone in that route. But look, I think that this is going to...
CARLSON: Boy, I hope you're right.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: I think it's going to -- to...
CARLSON: I don't know anyone who actually understands it. I've talked to a lot of people on the Hill. I talked to my accountant. What is this? No idea.
I have really high hopes. I mean, there's only really one question from the last election, and that is how do you save the middle class? Which is shrinking and dying younger and believes it's going to make less than its parents made. It's a disaster. And so everything the federal government does has to be focused on fixing that one problem.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: That's right.
CARLSON: And I really hope this bill does that.
FOWLER: I don't think it does.
CARLSON: Well, I guess we'll see. I guess I am very bothered that that's not obvious going into this.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: When you bring companies -- when you let that money come back overseas and you encourage and incentivize companies to start building factories in America, that does make a difference.
CARLSON: I hope so. Then you've also seen companies making more money than any time in history, and we still have persistently high permanent unemployment, like 100 million people.
FOWLER: Yes.
CARLSON: And wages are still stuck. So I hope that's true.
FOWLER: So I agree with you, Tucker, which is a rarity, America. Because I do think that this bill is missing how you deal with the middle class. And everything in this bill that was taken out of it, all the things that were peeled, were things that benefitted the middle class, like for example, being able to deduct your student loan interest rate.
But Greg, your turn.
GUTFELD: Oh, thanks. This is tax reform the way shaking up a can of Coke is Coke reform. This is not -- this is not an overhaul. It's not reform.
CARLSON: You're stealing that (ph).
GUTFELD: Whoever wrote "sweeping reform" needs their head examined. This is -- this is more liberal than it is conservative.
FOWLER: No, I disagree.
GUTFELD: The top 1 percent provides 40 percent of the federal income tax revenue. Is this helping them or hurting them? It's hurting them.
I think the corporate part is fine. I'm for that. The individual thing is a mess. It's a mess. And trying to sugar coat it is hilarious. Good luck, but it sucks.
And I think I agree with you. Like, I talked to people. And it's like trying to untangle your iPhone ear buds. When you're trying to go -- you're trying to go like, "What?" And then you have to do this. And then, wait, then you do this. "Oh, so we're going to give you this. But then we're going to take this back. No, but then you can have that."
That's what this is. We want something simple. As you said in the break, something bold. We have an opportunity to do something bold. We talk a great game. We talked a great game for decades. And then we get the opportunity and what do we do? This oatmeal. This bland, pale oatmeal.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: But you can't -- you can't do...
FOWLER: Touchdown, America!
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Greg, you cannot do the bold reform that you and me and all of us here want.
FOWLER: No, not me. Count me out. I don't want the bold reform.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: OK, fine. But you cannot do that without the Senate changing the rules.
(CROSSTALK)
FOWLER: That's not true. You've just got to come to the table. Thank you. If you came to the table and worked with Democrats and Republicans you can pass real reform. Ronald Reagan did it in the '80s.
And we'll be right back, because it's "Facebook Friday" up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC: "OSCAR MAYER BALONEY JINGLE")
GUTFELD: That's a way back.
PERINO: I love that song.
GUTFELD: Yes. It's "Facebook Friday." That means it's Friday.
FOWLER: Yes!
GUTFELD: So glad it's almost over. Twelve minutes.
All right. First question: this is from John K. I'm going to you, Tucker.
CARLSON: All right.
GUTFELD: "If you were on 'Who Wants to Be a Millionaire,'" which is a game show, if you're not familiar with it.
CARLSON: No. I'm so high-toned.
GUTFELD: All right. Then you might not know what I'm asking. "Who would be your lifeline," Tucker?
CARLSON: I don't know what that means.
GUTFELD: All right.
CARLSON: That's cool (ph).
GUTFELD: What?
CARLSON: Oh, it's just a great philosopher. I was reading.
GUTFELD: That's actually a good answer.
CARLSON: Who would I call for help?
GUTFELD: Exactly.
FOWLER: Phone a friend.
CARLSON: Gosh. I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot, Greg, but you.
GUTFELD: I think that's a good choice.
CARLSON: Yes, you would be a good choice.
GUTFELD: It would be very good.
CARLSON: It were, like, a question about '80s pop music. Like Depeche Mode.
GUTFELD: You would not lose.
CARLSON: Yes.
GUTFELD: I love them.
Dana.
PERINO: I would have to call my husband.
GUTFELD: Yes.
PERINO: Phone a friend.
GUTFELD: He knows a lot of stuff.
Rachel.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, I want to pass the second test. So I want to say you, Greg. But in all honesty, it's my husband. And actually, he saves me many, many times on Fox when a question has come up, and I've quick texted him for the answer. So...
GUTFELD: That's true. Doing -- doing Fox is like doing "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire." You're sitting there going, "Crap, I don't have an answer for this one."
PERINO: How do I feel about sanctuary cities?
GUTFELD: Get on your -- get on your phone. And you're like...
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Just being honest.
GUTFELD: I hope my buddy Paul is home. "So what happened with the terrorists in '83?"
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, it's helpful if your husband's in Congress, too, and you know, a lot of political questions. So...
GUTFELD: Richard.
FOWLER: So it's pop culture, it's going to be Shannon Bream, because she knows everything about music in the '80s. She's really good.
GUTFELD: She was in the Go-Go's.
FOWLER: Yes?
GUTFELD: Did you know what?
FOWLER: And if it's, like, history, I think I'd call Brit Hume.
CARLSON: Good call!
GUTFELD (IMITATING BRIT HUME): (MUMBLING) That's Brit Hume. (MUMBLING)
(SPEAKING NORMALLY) Anyway, I would take Dorothy Johnson who lives down the block. She just knows a lot of stuff.
PERINO: She's probably home.
GUTFELD: All right. Frank V. -- yes -- writes, "If you could pick an age for the rest of your life, Rachel, how old would you want to be?" This is from Frank V.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, this is an excellent question. I have eight kids. And I will tell you that I had three is...
GUTFELD: Is that enough?
CAMPOS-DUFFY: ... the best age. It's enough.
GUTFELD: Fill your heart with love.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: I have a 3-year-old right now, and so after having eight, and then having a 3-year-old, I have to tell you it is the best age. I am savoring it. I love it.
GUTFELD: Are you saying now is the best age?
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well...
GUTFELD: No.
FOWLER: Three.
GUTFELD: Three.
FOWLER: She wants to be three years old.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Everyone -- she's joy of the family. Everyone loves her. She's the star.
GUTFELD: OK. You get to wear a diaper.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: She doesn't wear a diaper.
GUTFELD: Well, I did. I still do.
FOWLER: That explains a lot. That explains a lot.
GUTFELD: Richard. All right, Richard, I'll go to you. What age?
FOWLER: I would say it's a toss-up between 21 and 25. The reason why 21 is because you really don't have a care in the world. And you're living your best life ever. And I think 25 is like right at that age where your body is at -- like, now I'm 30. And after a drink, I'm like, "Oh, lord, my bones are clicking." So 25 or 21.
PERINO: You feel sorry for him.
GUTFELD: Oh, yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: A woman peaks at 35.
CARLSON: I would be 71.
GUTFELD: Nice. Something to look forward to.
CARLSON: Yes, because at 71, if you're in decent shape, right, you kind of have all your faculties but you can say literally whatever you want.
GUTFELD: Yes, that's very true.
CARLSON: And nobody -- I mean, nobody's going to attack you. You get a discounts at every restaurant and movies. But mostly, you have total moral impunity at 70.
PERINO: Well, not like Conyers.
FOWLER: That's what I was going to say.
CARLSON: He's 88.
PERINO: You could maybe say anything.
GUTFELD: I would pick my age which is, you know, 45. I really enjoy it.
You know what's interesting, though? When you were a kid and you thought about heaven, you imagined everybody at the age that you know them as a kid. So your grandmother or your grandfather would be their age. Do you think you'd want to be that age in heaven?
PERINO: No.
GUTFELD: No, they'd want to be your age. So technically, everybody in heaven would be, like, 12 or 13. It would -- it would just be very chaotic.
CARLSON: It's depressing.
GUTFELD: It would be hard to find your parents, because they'd be your age.
FOWLER: That would be weird.
GUTFELD: Very strange. I've looked into this, America.
All right. This is an interesting, complex question. Dana.
PERINO: OK.
GUTFELD: Kimberly W. asks, "What would you say has been your biggest sacrifice either personally or professionally, and was it worth it?"
PERINO: My biggest sacrifice?
GUTFELD: Yes.
PERINO: Oh, I don't really know.
GUTFELD: You've never sacrificed anything?
PERINO: Well, I don't know. I mean, I feel like I'm pretty blessed so I don't -- and I've worked hard. No, I don't...
GUTFELD: Never?
PERINO: I probably need to sacrifice more.
GUTFELD: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: You can never do enough.
GUTFELD: We've learned here you're a very cold person.
PERINO: I've been (ph) that.
GUTFELD: Tucker, you have -- you've sacrificed a lot. It is, actually, a really awful question when you think about it.
CARLSON: I hate to admit it: Like Dana, I've had a totally cheerful life.
GUTFELD: Yes. It's a question that has betrayed our own shallowness, although you have eight kids. So you know sacrifice.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: I know sacrifice. And I'm Catholic. So put that together.
Listen, yes, I would say I've made a lot of sacrifices for my kids.
GUTFELD: Excellent. Richard?
FOWLER: I'm with Dana. I think I've been really blessed. So to say that I sacrificed would be really hard.
PERINO: Maybe hard. What about you?
FOWLER: It make me feel, like, ungrateful or something.
GUTFELD: I would say my biggest sacrifice is being here and helping America through tough times.
FOWLER: Oh, boy.
GUTFELD: But I love you, America. "One More Thing" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PERINO: It's time now for "One More Thing." I'll kick it off. Today is World AIDS Day, always December 1. This year's theme is increasing the impact through transparency, accountability and partnerships. Updates from PEPFAR: 14.3 million people on life-saving treatment; 2.2 million babies prevented from being born with HIV; a 25 percent decline in diagnoses in girls and young women in 10 high-infected African countries; 86.5 million people receiving HIV testing services. The good news goes on and on, all due, really, to the generosity of the American people; and the program continues under President Trump -- Greg.
GUTFELD: All right. Tomorrow night, 10 p.m., you know what it is. It's "The Greg Gutfeld Show." It's at 10 p.m. -- you see that? -- Fox News Channel. Great comedian Jamie Lissow. You've got a very smart thinker from I think it's "The Federalist," right? Bre Payton?
PERINO: Mm-hmm.
GUTFELD: I think so. Kat Timpf, Tyrus. If you don't tune in, you are dead to me! Every single one of you who doesn't watch my show, you are dead to me.
PERINO: That is...
CAMPOS-DUFFY: He just said he loves America. And now...
CARLSON: I listen to you...
(CROSSTALK)
FOWLER: How do know who they are?
GUTFELD: I will find them.
PERINO: All right. Tucker.
CARLSON: Two hours from now, exactly two hour and 3 minutes we're going to be dissecting today's news with the attorney general of the United States, Jeff Sessions. Lots to talk about with him.
PERINO: That's it for your "One More Thing"?
CARLSON: I'm not much of a promoter. I always feel guilty.
PERINO: Well, you could do, like, something funny. OK. Richard.
GUTFELD: I'll give you $100 if you pull on his ear.
CARLSON: Not on camera.
PERINO: All right, Richard.
FOWLER: Operation Agua is a crowdsourced campaign to provide safe drinking water to the people of Puerto Rico suffering after Hurricane Maria. So far the campaign has raised over a million dollars. It provides water filters to folks who can't get access to clean water. And for a small contribution, just $30, you provide an in-home water filter to a fellow American in Puerto Rico. Check it out. Go to AFT.org/OperationAqua and give. It's a great tax write-off. We're 24 days away from the tax season. More than that, 30-some odd days away from tax season ending. You can help others get clean water in Puerto Rico.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: And help fellow Americans...
FOWLER: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: ... in Puerto Rico.
FOWLER: Fellow Americans.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: A great cause.
PERINO: All right, Rachel, wrap it up for us.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: OK. So in my family, we have a little tradition. When a girl turns 18 to 24, we have a -- my dad's side is Mexican and my mother's side is from Spain. So we have this tradition of taking this picture. So this first picture is my great-grandmother. The next picture is my grandmother. The next picture is my mother.
PERINO: Beautiful.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: The next picture is me! And then my daughter just had her senior photos, and she just had hers taken.
PERINO: Wow! Gorgeous.
CARLSON: Beautiful.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: She carried on the tradition and made me proud.
PERINO: So earlier today, I got an email from a producer with the first picture of your grandmother. And I didn't even know what to do with it. It was in the middle of the 2 p.m. show, and like, I didn't even know what this was for. But now -- now it all -- I understand this. They're all very beautiful. That's a lovely tradition.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Thank you. And just because you're blond, you could try it too.
PERINO: I'll try. I don't think I could pull it off.
All right. Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of the "The Five." "Special Report" is up next. Have a great weekend, everyone. Over to you. Bret Baier, are you there?
END
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