Turley: In Hollywood and DC, principle is matter of timing

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," November 21, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: Thank you very much, Bret. I am Martha MacCallum, and I'm in New York and "The Story" begins here.

So, tonight, breaking news from the White House where the president spoke out forcefully right before heading out for Thanksgiving. The White House evolution on Roy Moore continues tonight. The president now saying he wants a Republican in that Alabama seat, and that Roy Moore denies the allegations against him.


PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, he denies it. Look, he denies it. I mean, if you look at what is really going on, and you look at all the things that have happened over the last 48 hours, he totally denies it. He says it didn't happen and, you know, you have to listen to him also. You're talking about -- he said, 40 years ago, this did not happen. So, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to campaign for Roy Moore?

TRUMP: I'll be letting you know next week, but I can tell you, you don't need somebody who's soft on crime like Jones.


MACCALLUM: He said quite a bit in there. Let's bring in our chief congressional correspondent, Mike Emanuel, who's live at the White House tonight with the latest. Hi Mike.

MIKE EMANUEL, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Martha, good evening. Part of this could well be President Trump is counting votes for tax reform and doesn't want the Senate to have just 51 Republicans, so the White House may feel it needs Roy Moore.


TRUMP: Well, he denies. I mean, Roy Moore denies it. And by the way, he gives a total denial -- and I do have to say, 40 years is a long time. He's run eight races and this has never come up, so 40 years is a long time. The women are Trump voters, most of them are Trump voters.


EMANUEL: The president made a whole lot of news before leaving the White House with a first family heading for the winter White House for the Thanksgiving holiday. The president also weighed in on the recent controversies over prominent Democratic lawmakers, Democrat Senator Al Franken, and Michigan Democrat Congressman John Conyers. Franken has had women accuse him of inappropriate sexual behavior, and Conyers is facing an Ethics Committee probe after revelations he may have sexually harassed staff members and used official resources for personal purposes involving women. The president talked about this moment where women are coming forward to reveal men behaving badly.


TRUMP: Women are very special, I think it's a very special time because a lot of things are coming out and I think that's good for our society. And I think it's very, very good for women.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should Al Franken resign now?

TRUMP: I don't know. Look, I don't want to speak for Al Franken. I don't know --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about John Conyers?

TRUMP: I don't what happened. I just heard about Conyers two minutes ago.


EMANUEL: There is also outrage over the Congressional Office of Compliance, saying 17 million taxpayer dollars have been used to settle 264 claims over 20 years. The president says, he thinks Congress should open up about lawmakers who have settled sexual harassment claims. And in this case, there appears to be at least some bipartisan agreement.


DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR: I think the Speaker Paul Ryan and Leader McConnell should open up the books. I think the American people deserve to understand what has been going on under the dome of the Capitol.


EMANUEL: There are some suggestions -- these sexual harassment allegations are just the tip of the iceberg involving lawmakers. There's no doubt some members of Congress may be having an uneasy Thanksgiving holiday if they've been hiding secrets. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Boy, no doubt. Mike, thank you very much. So, here now: Washington Times Columnist, Charles Hurt. Charlie, good to see you tonight. Thanks for being here on THE STORY.


MACCALLUM: Boy, so, the president came out to leave for Thanksgiving, and as he often does, he gave us an earful as he was heading out to Marine One. And he chose to sort of evolved on the issue of Roy Moore. He has had 12 days, he really hasn't really said anything. What do you make of when he laid out there tonight with regards to his stance on Roy Moore, Charlie?

HURT: Well, I think it was as disciplined a response as I could've ever imagined President Trump ever giving. The first thing he said was -- instead of answering the question about Roy Moore, he simply pivoted and started talking about issues, he talked about issues that are very important to Alabama voters. Talking about crime in the border and the second amendment, and he said that Doug Jones, the Democratic opponent against Roy Moore, is unacceptable to him on all of those things and he seems to call him a liberal. And then, he tried to leave it there for a minute, and then somebody pressed him further on Roy Moore and he didn't defend Roy Moore, but he also -- he didn't endorse him and he didn't really defend him except to say that he denies everything.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And it's a very, very delicate dance. I want to play a little bit of the campaign manager for Roy Moore who came out today, manager -- Campaign Manager Dean Young. Watch this.


DEAN YOUNG, CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR ROY MOORE: Mitch McConnell has spent over $30 million trying to stop Judge Moore. The Washington Post and all the fake media for the last two weeks have said everything they can say about Judge Moore and tried to dig people up, put them on T.V., and say Judge Moore's a bad guy. We understand why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their worldviews could not be more opposite than that of Judge Moore.


MACCALLUM: You know, you have such a disconnect going on here, Charlie, between Alabama and their decision about who their senator is going to be. And then, the outrage over the possibility that Roy Moore could have pushed himself on a 14-year-old girl.

HURT: I have to tell you, Martha, from that first moment -- that first accusation from Lee Kaufman, I believed every word of it. Everything she said just sent chills down my spine, and I believed every bit of it. But listening to that -- to those campaign officials talking today, talking about the effort to destroy a guy, it was the most powerful argument that I have heard to date. And it does -- it brings you up short and it makes you stop and wonder.

You know, we think about all of the things that you and I and others have covered over the past few years, throughout the Trump Campaign, the things that turned out to be completely false that whether it's the Russia dossier, you know, all this crazy stuff. And it starts -- and I know that you know, as a fairly sophisticated consumer of the news, it really causes me to question. I don't blame a single Alabama voter who goes out there and votes for Roy Moore for that very reason. And by the way, you know, Donald Trump is right or the White House is right: nobody can do anything to stop Roy Moore at this time. He may lose, he may win, Republicans --

MACCALLUM: They could stop him after he gets in.

HURT: Right.

MACCALLUM: It's very close right now. They are, you know, a couple of tenths of a point apart in the latest poll.

HURT: But it's up to Alabama voters.

MACCALLUM: But if he gets in, it could become a whole another episode for the GOP.

HURT: Absolutely. But at this point, it is up to Alabama voters and you have to have faith in them, you know, to do the right thing and that includes evaluating all of the information and determining who's lying, who's not lying -- that's the way the system is set up.

MACCALLUM: I want to quickly play the president on his Putin phone call and get a quick thought from you on that. Let's watch that.


TRUMP: We had a great call with President Putin. We're talking about peace in Syria -- very important. We're about North Korea, we had a call that lasted almost an hour and a half. We just put out a release on the call, but we're talking very strongly about bringing peace to Syria. We're talking very strongly about North Korea and Ukraine.


MACCALLUM: You know, it's fascinating. The president, obviously, mired in this whole Russia controversy. Sort of put that foot forward spent an hour and said, I talked to Vladimir Putin for one hour today, and I'm going to lay out for everybody what we talked about. What did you make of that?

HURT: The guy is completely fearless, he doesn't care what the media is saying, he's always confident in his ability to make an argument and win an argument -- and that's what he's doing here. And the other thing, Martha, that I would point out is the fact that, you know, both Democrats and Republicans have so many of similar approaches when it comes to things overseas like how to deal with Russia. This guy comes at this with a completely fresh set of eyes and he's willing to sort of turn everything upside down and try it a different way. And quite frankly, I think that's how he won the election.

MACCALLUM: Charlie Hurt, always great to see you, Charlie. Thank you very much.

HURT: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, my next guest argues that in Washington and in Hollywood, as we have seen, the principal is as he writes today "a sad matter of timing." Here now is George Washington Law, Professor Jonathan Turley. Jonathan, it's always great to have you on the show.


MACCALLUM: You wrote this: "Many in Washington put their ethics on layaway during the Clinton presidency, and that bill is suddenly due." And you also said this: "Public figures often accept blame or cast blame when it no longer threatens personal cost for them to do so. The key is to suspend your belief in victims until your believing is beneficial." Wow.

TURLEY: Well, unfortunately, it's true about Washington. Washington has one great specialty, and that's managing scandal. They are the world experts at it. They find ways of sending things to think -- for example, the Ethics Committee, to try to kick this can down the road until the public loses interest, or at least their anger subsides.

But you know there's something wrong when so many politicians in Washington are standing on principle, you know they've run out of any alternatives. And so, you know, what we're seeing now is that a lot of these members really are facing a situation where the bill has come due. You know, members who say they're absolutely aghast that there was a settlement with -- for people like Conyers.

You know, the public has got to really stop being such chumps. You know, this was a system designed to keep these types of settlements and allegations secret, and if members are expressing disbelief and anger now, it's not very convincing.

MACCALLUM: You know, you also talk about the hypocrisy on the part of some Clinton supporters who now are sort of seeing the light, which you point out is politically advantageous for them at the moment. And Philippe Reines, who worked very closely with Hillary Clinton for a long time, tweeted in response to Kristin Gillibrand after she came out and said that Bill Clinton should've stepped down after the Monica Lewinski scandal. He said to her, you know, for more than 20 years, she "took the Clinton's endorsements, money, and seats." Hypocrite, he calls her.

TURLEY: Well, I particularly love that moment because I call it in the column "transactional ethics."

MACCALLUM: That's a great term, by the way.

TURLEY: You know, you don't really focus on the underlying wrongdoing, you focus on the fact that once bought, you're supposed to stay bought -- and that, in Washington, constitutes an ethical principle.

MACCALLUM: You know, I want to ask you thing, because what's being put out there by people like Roy Moore tonight, and the president talked about this a little bit too, is that the same thing can sometimes be true on the accusers' side, what is your thought on that?

TURLEY: Well, look, I don't agree with the president's statement today. It was the void of any moral foundation. I think that the allegations against Roy Moore are very compelling. These women do not appear to be the types you go to for hit pieces, they're Republican voters largely, many are Trump voters. But their allegations are quite credible.

Now, you can't just simply say, well, he denies it, because if that was the case, then all of the people who've been trying to hold Bill Clinton accountable would have to say, well, he gets the benefit of the doubt as well as long as he denies it. That's not the standard, the standard for adults is to look at the allegations and decide if they're credible.

MACCALLUM: So, you think, you know, he's being overly pragmatic here, and that he's sacrificing his ethics in order to save the seat?

TURLEY: I think he is. I mean, the governor of Alabama said she believes these women, but she still could've hoped for Roy Moore, because he's good on --

MACCALLUM: So, did Ivanka Trump, by the way. I mean, she didn't say she was going to vote for Roy Moore, but she said that she's found no reason not to believe these women, his daughter.

TURLEY: Right. And so, but the governor of Alabama said, you know, he'll be good for the Supreme Court. Well, if you believe these women, this guy was on a watch list for the mall. I mean, if that's -- if the allegations are true, I don't see how you can morally cast that vote. But at the end of the day, the Alabama voters have to decide. But to pretend that a simple denial means that these are less than credible allegations, I think it's a bit fencible.

MACCALLUM: Sadly we live in a world of "transactional ethics," especially when it comes to politics. I'm going to get that and put it on a t-shirt. Jonathan Turley, thank you. Good to see you as always.

TURLEY: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, breaking just moments ago, a second woman is now accusing Democratic Congressman and Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee, John Conyers, the longest-standing Congressman in Congress right now, of sexual harassment. It's a big deal. We're learning more also about the secret hush money that's been used to settle harassment cases. And guess whose money it is, folks? 17 million in your taxpayer dollars. You deserve to know what's going on here.

Also, today, CBS having to confront its Charlie Rose issue. As the longtime newsman stood accused of mistreating women.


NORA O'DONNELL, CBS HOST: Let me be very clear, there is no excuse for this alleged behavior.


MACCALLUM: Dana Loesch and Leslie Marshall join me next. Then, we told you about the U.S. Border Patrol Agent sadly found dead in a remote stretch of the Texas desert. Tonight, the latest on this mystery is next.


VICTOR VELASQUEZ, ACTING CHIEF PATROL AGENT: The death of Rogelio marks the 125th U.S. Border Patrol agent to have died in the line of duty.



MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight just within the last hour, there is now a second woman, she's a former staffer of the Judiciary Committee Ranking Member, John Conyers, and she's accused him of persistent sexual harassment. The only reason that this has come out tonight is because she decided to abandon her settlement talks. She claims that she suffered unwanted touching and inappropriate comments, she claims, "on a daily basis" in his office.

And there are shocking revelations about how Congress has been secretly paying off accusers to sweep harassment under the rug on Capitol Hill. Reportedly, there is $17 million worth of these settlements, and you know that many come from, right? It is the U.S. taxpayer dollars, your money at work.

Also, a CBS News Man, Charlie Rose, has now been fired one day after he was suspended -- PBS and Bloomberg quickly also cutting ties. Multiple women, coming forward to accuse a veteran T.V. journalist of an appropriate sexual behavior. Rose's former CBS this morning Co-Host, Gayle King and Nora O'Donnell, earlier today.


GAYLE KING, CBS HOST: I'm still trying to process all of this, I'm still trying to sort it out because this is not the man I know. But I'm also clearly on the side of the women who have been very hurt and damaged by this.

O'DONNELL: This is a moment that demands a frank and honest assessment about where we stand and more generally, the safety of women. Let me be very clear, there is no excuse for this alleged behavior.


MACCALLUM: We're also hearing from a PBS executive producer who worked with Rose for more than 25 years, and now says that she wishes that she had done more. She writes: "I should've stood up for them. I failed. It is crushing. I deeply regret not helping them", referring to these women. Here now: Dana Loesch, Talk Radio Host with Radio America; and Leslie Marshall, a Progressive Radio Talk Show Host and a Fox News Contributor.

Ladies, welcome, good to have both of you with us tonight. I just want to want to put up on the screen, another quote with regard to the John Conyers case. This is someone who worked in his office and she said according to the affidavit, "one of my duties while working for Representative Conyers was to keep a list of women that I assumed he was having affairs with and call them at his request, and if necessary, have them flown in using congressional resources." Dana?

DANA LOESCH, RADIO HOST, RADIO AMERICA: I'm stunned that taxpayer resources were used to essentially help Conyers' predation and exploitation of women. This is ridiculous. And as I understand, there's going to be an ethics investigation into him, but these are -- I mean, for the better -- usually, these are pretty toothless. It seems to exonerate more individuals than it does to actually condemn those who have committed wrongdoing. But this is insane. I mean, how many -- hardworking Americans should not be paying for the bedroom habits of John Conyers. What kind of message does that send? I mean, for crying out loud, it wasn't he settling out, Martha, with all of these women while his wife was serving prison time for taking bribes on the Detroit City Council.

MACCALLUM: Leslie, you know, you look at these stories, and there are some allegations that have been made Jackie Speiers and others who will not reveal the names of people that they say did this to them. So, but the problem is, you know, that's all fine if you're dealing with, you know, a private situation, but when you have bailouts and settlements, I should say, in these cases that involve taxpayer dollars, you really don't have an option whether or not to keep that private, do you?

LESLIE MARSHALL, FOX NEW CONTRIBUTOR AND PROGRESSIVE RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I agree with you, 100 percent -- this is one time, I think, Dana, you and I have been agreeing on Twitter lately more than in the past, especially on this issue. There is no, absolutely no reason that we, the people, with our taxes, should pay for these types of settlement. When you look at $17 million spread out over 20 years, that's almost $1 million a year.

How much to who? Who has paid off? What is this, hush money? This is disgusting. Further, I do want to say also, not just flying people in allegedly on our dime, but I have to say, and I've said this before, these women need to name these names on Capitol Hill because these people left or right are elected by individuals like you and me who may not know what they are doing with our tax dollars within those chambers.

MACCALLUM: And they also seem to be woefully behind the times in terms of how they deal with this. I mean, they're saying we should have mandatory sexual harassment training. Like, hello, I mean, corporations across America have been doing this for years. And if you're going to do, you know, these kinds of payouts, Dana, as we're saying, you know, it just opens that door, you really cannot do this in private. Here's President Trump on this earlier this afternoon. Just so you know, I'll play this and I want to hear what you have to say.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe Congress should release the names of lawmakers who have settled on sexual harassment claims?

TRUMP: I do, I really do. I think they should.



LOESCH: Well, you know, you mentioned really quickly, Martha, the whole issue of you can't use taxpayer dollars and then tell the taxpayers to stay out of your business -- and I apply that for everything that taxpayers have to fund everything. This is our government. John Conyers works for the people. He doesn't get to take the people's money and then tell them to shut up and stay out of his business. And this lush fund, this hush money, and I think that's what Leslie had called it.

I mean, we don't know what it is because we -- they make this, make this a Rube Goldberg machine of solving these issues. And to sit here and call for sexual harassment courses -- this is 2017, we don't have to teach grown adults how to behave in the workplace. And if grown adults, Martha, have to be taught how to behave in the workplace, then maybe those adults shouldn't leave their homes until they can act like decent human beings.

MACCALLUM: Yes. You know, it really does come down to such simple rules. And I think, Dana, I heard you, you said this the other morning: keep your hands to yourself, right? I mean, talk about the lessons that we all learn in kindergarten. It's not that hard. It's not that hard, Leslie, but it seems like there are a lot of people out there who have a really tough time with that message.

MARSHALL: I think part of the problem here, Martha, is that we have, and not just here in the United States and not just in Hollywood or on Capitol Hill, but worldwide, I think pretty much since Adam and Eve, there has just been this power that men have and have wielded over women. And that, unfortunately, women have just felt so powerless. And I think right now, they're saying we are mad as hell, we're not going to take it anymore, and this is the revolution. This has been the war on women.

MACCALLUM: Thank you so much to both of you ladies. Good to have you here. Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks a lot.

MARSHALL: Thank you, Marsha.

MACCALLUM: So, who did approve the Uranium One deal? We've heard a lot about this. There's some brand-new evidence tonight in this story, and we're going to tell you what that is coming up. Then, what happened to the border agent who was found dead in the desert? Tonight, the FBI is revealing some of this story next.


EMMERSON BUIE, SPECIAL AGENT-IN-CHARGE, EL PASO: We are investigating this matter as a potential assault on a federal officer.



MACCALLUM: The FBI is now offering a $25,000 reward for any information that could lead to information and the death of this U.S. border agent. 36-year-old agent Rogelio Martinez died on Sunday after multiple injuries. His partner was also badly injured and at this point, says he does not remember anything about what happened out there. That could change. The big question still tonight remains how did this happen? Here's the FBI earlier.


BUIE: We've been out aggressively pursuing every lead that we have as well as processing the scene which we are considering a crime scene. Right now, again, we are investigating this matter as a potential assault on a federal officer.


MACCALLUM: Fox's Casey Stegall live in Dallas with what we are learning tonight in this mysterious case. Good evening, Casey.

CASEY STEGALL, FOX NEWS CHANNEL REPORTER: Martha, good evening to you. The FBI says that both of those U.S. Border Patrol agents suffered traumatic head injuries and had broken bones. But as you just said, how they sustain those injuries in the first place remains a mystery.

And investigators just will not come out and say it. Authorities have only told us that the two agents were discovered in a covert area right off of interstate ten near Vanhorn, Texas down along the border. It's an area known for high levels of drug smuggling activities, we're told.

Leaders from the union, the Border Patrol Union, have also said that the agents were attacked with rocks and beaten. However, no other law enforcement agencies will confirm that information. But as we do know, Agent Rogelio Martinez was so badly injured, he was airlifted to an El Paso hospital, but did not survive. And tonight, so many unanswered questions make this even more painful for his family.


VELASQUEZ: The death of Rogelio marks the 125th U.S. border patrol agent to have died in the line of duty. Agent Martinez is survived by his parents, Jose and Elvia, his brothers, Enrique and Yen, his son, Sergio, his fiancee, Angela, three stepchildren.


STEGALL: His fiancee, we understand he was excited to get married soon. Another U.S. border patrol agent was also seriously hurt. Officials say he went to help Agent Martinez, and tonight he remains in critical but stable condition. The national border patrol counsel, again, a union representing a vast majority of agents working out on the front line says that surviving agent, Martha, does not remember what happened, has zero recollection of the incident, which could be consistent with a head injury, as you know, which we have learned he sustained. And as you can imagine, that is only complicating this investigation as they interview him to try and find out what happened and he doesn't remember, so to be continued on this one.

MACCALLUM: What a terrible loss and we hope he heals and that his memory heals as well so he can shed some light on all of this. Casey, thank you very much in Dallas tonight. So here now with more on this, and also on the president's call for a wall at the border and how that could play into the DACA question, all of this comes together in one place because there's potential for government shutdown in December over these big issues. Steve Cortez sat on President Trump's 2016 Hispanic advisory council. He's also a Fox News contributor, and Austan Goolsbee, he's professor of economics at the University of Chicago, and served as President Obama's chief economist. Gentlemen, welcome. Good to have you both here. Steve, I want to start with you because you point out something very important in this story and that is the loss of this Hispanic officer in what is such a complex issue for Americans.

STEVE CORTEZ, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Right. Martha, I'm glad you brought it up because I often bring this point up on air. I think a lot of liberal politicians think that they're pandering to the Hispanic community with their misbegotten, liberal, politically-correct policies, things like open borders and sanctuary cities. And what I point out all the time is that the victims of those terrible policies, very often, the prey that suffer are Hispanics themselves. So Agent Martinez is a hero, he died trying to protect our country, whatever the circumstances of his death, and it certainly appears that it was violence from perpetrators. He is an American Hispanic who died because we have allowed a dangerous situation on our southern border. There are many examples in sanctuary cities where Hispanic-Americans died because of the pandering of liberal politicians with so-called sanctuary cities, which I don't call sanctuary cities anymore I'm starting to call them Steinle cities because that's a more accurate term, because it's not sanctuary for the cops and the victims in those places.

MACCALLUM: So Austan, he's saying that people who think the way you do, in some regards, are doing a disservice to the Hispanic community.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Well, I mean, conflating this with DACA I think is kind of absurd. DACA.

CORTEZ: I never mentioned DACA.


MACCALLUM: No, I did. And let me tell you the reason why, because what's going on, you know, you've got a budget bill that's coming in. You could have a shutdown of the government, which is looking like it may happen is that the president wants funding for the wall and Democrats may want to insert DACA into that in order to keep the government from shutting down. So all these immigration issues converge with this spending bill that is going to be under a lot of pressure come December, Austan.

GOOLSBEE: Yeah, may be. But I kind of think you're mixing some things that probably shouldn't be mixed. I mean, the first is Republicans control both houses of congress and the White House. There has never been a shutdown in the history of the United States in which the government's all three branches were controlled by the same party. All the Republicans have to do is do their job and they can pass a budget. They don't need any Democratic votes to do that.

MACCALLUM: Here's the thing though, there are a lot of Republicans and a lot of independents who believe that the DACA bill should be extended. It could be problematic on their own side of the fence.

GOOLSBEE: Exactly. So that's my second point is the root of this problem is that by large majorities, the American people support extending citizenship or protection to kids that came here as toddlers and babies who are Americans. They love this country, they're working, they're important contributors to our economy. And the president of the United States made a deal with the Democrats that said he was going to extend -- he was going to pass DACA and extend protections for them and he has turned his back on that agreement.

MACCALLUM: Let's get a response from Steve. Steve, you know, is Austan right about that? Is this a problem for Republicans?

CORTEZ: Look, it's a problem for America. I'm actually pro-DACA, and I happen to disagree with some of my colleagues within Team Trump on that. I do believe that these are different category of people. They didn't choose.

MACCALLUM: Well, the president sounds like he agrees with you.

CORTEZ: Well, yeah, and I think he does, by the way. But what did he do? He very compassionately said let's do it the right way. I'm not a king like President Obama. I'm not going to wave my scepter through executive order. Let's do it the right way and get it through congress. Now the onus is on the congress. And I agree with Austan, it's on the Republicans in congress to get this done the right way, and the right way is a compromise. Let's extend DACA in exchange for more resources for the border and an end to chain migration. That's the grand bargain that makes sense for everyone.

MACCALLUM: All right. Guys, I've got to leave it there, thank you so much. Austan and Steve, good to see you both tonight. So disgrace IRS official Lois Lerner, remember her? She says that her testimony that she gave behind closed doors in the tea party case can never see the light of day for the American public. She says if it does, she will be in danger. So what did she say in there that has her so worried? A woman who knows what it's like to combine fear and the IRS, next. Hillary Clinton insists that there is no scandal surrounding the controversial deal to sell U.S. uranium to Russia, so what was at work in that Uranium One deal? New information from the man who was undercover the entire time. Marc Thiessen and Zac Petkanas joins me next.



UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your client also engaged in conversations with Russian colleagues about efforts of the Washington entity and others to gain influence with the Clintons and the Obama administration.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was telling the U.S. government all of this in 2009 and 2010, and what happen -- my client was being told by the FBI that the director of the FBI was being briefed on this, and even at the White House that President Obama was being briefed on this matter, so how could this sale have gone through?


MACCALLUM: That was Victoria -- the lawyer for the confidential FBI informant in the Russia Uranium One case, raises new questions about the deal approved by the Obama administration. The Hill also reporting tonight on new documents that allegedly reveal Russia viewed the purchase of Uranium One as part of an overall strategy to try to control the world's uranium market.

Here now, Marc Thiessen, American enterprise institute scholar and Fox News contributor, and Zac Petkanas a former DNC senior advisor and Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign aide. Welcome, gentlemen. Welcome to both of you. Zac, let me start with you. I know that you think that this is all nothing, right?



PETKANAS: Sure. I mean, for a couple of reasons. I mean, first off, what we're talking about here is an insignificant amount of uranium. What things have we learned since this so-called scandal has broke? The American portion of uranium constitutes 1/30th of the overall uranium within the deal, .2 percent of the global output. Since this deal has been struck, only 150 tons of uranium have been extracted from the United States. Compare that to the deal the United States struck with Russia in the 1990's where the United States got 150,000 tons of uranium. So in other words, it would take 1,000 years to extract the amount of uranium out of this deal that we've got with a stroke of a pen.


MACCALLUM: Apparently, the Russians thought it was important enough that they went to great lengths to get this deal, Marc. It's Marc's turn. Go ahead, Marc.

MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. Look, everything Zac just said is completely irrelevant because the reality is this is not a national security scandal, it's a corruption scandal. It's a Clinton corruption scandal. It keeps getting worse every day. Look, we already know that after the Russians announced their intention to acquire Uranium One, Bill Clinton was miraculously invited to Moscow to give a half million dollar speech from a Russian investment bank that was pushing Uranium One stock. The Clinton Foundation then got a $145 million from interests related to Uranium One. And now we've learned that before the Obama administration approved this deal they had a confidential informant who told them that there was criminal activity happening at Rosatom, the company, the Russian agency that was going to buy Uranium One, but they approved it anyway. And that as you say it was part of a larger Russian strategy to lock not just the American uranium market but the world's uranium market.

PETKANAS: You have to get your facts right.

THIESSEN: So what is happening here is there's a lot of Russian money slashing around in the Clinton Foundation in the Clinton world that is related to Uranium one. And if we want to understand Russian influence we need to get to the bottom of that.

MACCALLUM: Zac, this is what I don't understand about your overall feeling about this. You're so concerned about influence from Russia, right?


MACCALLUM: And you are, clearly. And I think we all should be in terms of the United States election. Why would you not want to sort of follow that trail back to sort of see where some of this began, to see how some of that influence was bought in this situation, and to sort of -- you know, you have this informant, right? And he says he's telling the FBI, the entity begins increasing its financial support to the Clinton charitable project after it was hired by the Russian, according to the document. He goes on to say, he also listened as visiting Russians used racially tinged insults to boast about how easy they found it to win the uranium business under Obama according to a source familiar with Gamble plan testimony to Congress.

PETKANAS: So a couple of things. First off, $140 million that keeps -- about, it actually happened before Secretary Clinton was secretary of state and part of the board.


PETKANAS: Hold on.

MACCALLUM: She was running for president.

PETKANAS: She was running -- sure, she was running for president. But -- wasn't involved with Uranium One at the time, so $140 million is actually irrelevant. The second piece.

MACCALLUM: Wait, why would they give $140 million to the Clinton Foundation?


PETKANAS: I have no idea.


MACCALLUM: Just for the heck of it, just because it was good work.

PETKANAS: Look, one, it does do -- incredible work. But the second piece has nothing to do with Uranium One. What is the relevant.

MACCALLUM: All right. Marc, I want to start the question that I get asked a lot and that is why did the Clinton Foundation have -- you know, part of their base in Canada? Why would a former United States president want to have part of his charity based in Canada?

THIESSEN: I have absolutely no idea. Let's look into that too. I mean, because the -- maybe it's easier to flow money through Canada than it is here. But the reality, Martha, the problem is, Zac is very interested in investigating Donald Trump, not interested in investigating Russian influence. If you care about investigating Russian influence in Washington, you've got to follow -- you've got to investigate both the Republicans and the Democrats because the reality is, none of this absolves Donald Trump or the Trump campaign, but there was Russian money slashing around in both the Republicans and the Democrats side. It was not just Paul Manafort and Rick Gates. It was the Podesta brothers. It was Bill Clinton himself. It was the Clinton Foundation. And if we want to understand truly as Americans, as we all should, how the Russians were trying to play this game. They knew what they're doing, Martha, is that they were playing both sided. They've expected Hillary Clinton to win.


MACCALLUM: Zac, you've got the first word. I'm going to leave it with Marc. We will pick it up again, guys. Thank you very much, good to see you both tonight.

THIESSEN: All right.

MACCALLUM: So Still ahead this evening, Lois Lerner, member of the IRS fame wants her testimony to stay under wraps. She said if it's revealed to the public, it's going to put her in danger. Tonight, Becky Gerritson who is one of the women who was targeted by Lerner has some thoughts on that coming up.


MACCALLUM: Breaking just moments ago, we have reports now that three White House military personnel have been removed from their post. They've been reassigned after, quote, inappropriate contact with foreign women on President Trump's trip to Vietnam. According to the Washington Post, all three service members were part of the White House communications agency and they handled the secure communications for the president when he was traveling. This is the same team that these similar allegations during Vice President Pence's trip to Panama last summer when four of its members were flown home early and strip of their assignments shortly after those allegations surface. Breaking tonight, we'll get you more information on that.


UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing.


MACCALLUM: Former IRS director Lois Lerner back in 2013, refusing to answer questions about here role in the agency's illegal targeting of conservative groups. Now she's pushing to make sure that that testimony that she gave behind closed doors, not what you've just saw, is never revealed. She doesn't want the transcripts of what she said or the audio, I believe there is as well, on what she's said in that room to become public. She says that she does have a right to keep it and she's pushing for that. She's a public official, of course, and she was paid by the U.S. taxpayers to do her job, so the other argument on the other side is obvious. Now, Becky Gerritson, a woman directly affected by Lerner's leadership at the time at the IRS has something to say about that, but before we hear from her, a quick little reminder of the testimony from Ms. Lerner and Ms. Gerritson. Watch.


UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm telling my government that you forgotten your place.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have not done anything wrong.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: The America that people cross oceans and risks their lives to become a part of, and I'm terrified it is slipping away.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have not broken any laws. I have not violated any IRS rules and regulations.


MACCALLUM: Becky Gerritson is the founder of the Wetumpka tea party of Alabama, one of the many groups who was targeted by the IRS. Becky, good to have you back on The Story tonight. Welcome to you. She says that she is going to be targeted -- she'll get death threats if these transcripts is released of what she said to those investigators. Who would that be from? Who would be wanting to do that to her?

BECKY GERRITSON, WETUMPKA TEA PARTY OF ALABAMA FOUNDER: Well, that's a good question. I really wonder if some of those death threats aren't coming from the left. It was more than just the IRS that was involved in this scandal. There were also -- the Department of Justice, the federal election commission. There were all in cahoots over this. I know there are a lot of government workers who don't want the truth to come out. But back to her testimony, you know, quote, she said, I have done nothing -- I have not done anything wrong. I have not broken any laws. And then, if that's the case, what is so damaging in this testimony that she is fearful for her life?


GERRITSON: That's what I want to know.

MACCALLUM: It's a great question. You know, she claims that she was the one at the IRS that she claims that she's been posting a line. She was the one at the IRS who sort of understand what was going on. That it was all just a big mistake. That people don't have the right direction in her department. That that's why all of these requests for taxes and status were held up, and that she was the one who actually tried to shed light on it.

GERRITSON: Oh, that is so not true. And months ago, we settled with the IRS and they did admit that they were targeting conservative groups. And in one of the other cases that also came out in October of this year, a multimillion dollar settlement by the IRS to groups that were targeted. So that is taxpayer money being paid out. I believe that we, as taxpayers, have a right to hear that testimony to see why -- you know, if there was nothing wrong, then why did we pay out millions of dollars for the IRS's wrongdoing? This should be public.

MACCALLUM: Yeah. She's a public official, and she testified, and it seems like it should be part of the public record. And as you say, if she was just giving her excuse and her reasoning, there shouldn't be anything that she needs to worry about in the course of that. We will see. Becky Gerritson, thank you so much. Good to see you tonight.

GERRITSON: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Stick around, we are coming right back with tonight's quote of the night after this.


MACCALLUM: There is President Trump today with the first lady and his son, Baron, parting a turkey name drumstick. They were all there on hand for the big annual event before they headed to Mar-a-Lago for Thanksgiving.

And last night, we shared Teddy Roosevelt's official Thanksgiving proclamation from 1901. Tonight, comes from President John F. Kennedy. It should be noted that he died six days before the Thanksgiving that he writes about here. On that day, let us gather to express our gratitude for the glorious gift of God. And let us earnestly and humbly pray that he will continue to guide and sustain us in the great unfinished tasks of achieving peace, justice, and understanding among all men and nations and of ending misery and suffering wherever they exist. Today, those quests for those goals continues.

Have a great Thanksgiving with your family everybody. Tucker Carlson is up next.

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