OJ Simpson's 2008 lawyer: Parole won't be easy
Yale Galanter represented Simpson in Nevada robbery case, provides insight on 'The Story'
This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 20, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM: These are real clash of celebrity and brutality that is O.J. Simpson, found us, once again, glued to our T.V. Once again, he was the story. Good evening, everybody, I'm Martha MacCallum. From the Heisman to the Hertz man to the first 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 9-1-1 Emergency.
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON: Can you get someone over here now to 325 Gretna Green? He's back. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, what does he look like?
N. SIMPSON: He's O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record. Could you just send someone over here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is he doing there?
N. SIMPSON: He just drove up again -- can you send somebody over?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, the brutal murder and then the Bronco chase, to the shocking verdict in a case that piled up evidence against the man known as "the juice."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury and the about entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder upon Nicole Brown Simpson. A human being as charged (INAUDIBLE) one of the information. Not guilty of the crime of murder upon Ron Lyle Goldman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: And now, after nine years behind bars for armed robbery in very different circumstances is somewhat similar reaction from O.J.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Simpson, I do vote to grant parole, when eligible. And that will conclude this hearing.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, FORMER AMERICAN FOOTBALLER: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: He will be a free man come October. With me tonight, three men who were deeply involved in this story, from the first phone call about the double murder at the house on Bundy Drive: Mark Fuhrman, Tom Lange, and Yale Galanter. But first, a look at the 70-year-old as he and his daughter made his case for freedom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARNELLE SIMPSON, DAUGHTER OF O.J. SIMPSON: No one really knows how much we have been through, this ordeal in the last nine years.
O. SIMPSON: I've never pulled a gun on anybody. You know, I never have in my life. They turned over to me probably that I'm in jail for trying to retreat. It's been ruled legally, by the state of California that it was my property and they've given it to me. I was a good guy. But I could've been a better Christian, and my commitment to change is to be a better Christina. Life, basically, has been a conflict free life. I also recently became the commissioner of the softball league. I'm not a guy who lived a permeable life. You know, I'm a pretty shooter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Wow! So, let's bring in Fox News Contributor and former LAPD detective Mark Fuhrman, for his reaction tonight. Mark, you watched all that, what did you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR AND FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: Well, good evening, Martha. Here we're at Lovelock Prison, beautiful Lovelock Prison. And this morning, when we watched O.J. Simpson, I was a little shocked; not that he got parole. I figured he would get parole. But I was shocked at the way he actually -- at times, even argued with the parole board about the very issues he was here.
This was an aggravated assault section of his parole, which is a use of the weapons. He argued that he didn't even know there was a weapon. And conveniently, I was actually talking to the very detective that filed these cases, and he said he not only knew they had weapons, he told them to bring weapons -- that's lie one.
The second one, he said I just went there to get my property. It wasn't his property. And the California courts didn't say it was his property. The detective said we sent it all back to the victim in this crime. So, the shocking part of this is the parole board was lied to, and yet it seemed not to matter. Almost like, this was a foregone conclusion: O.J. Simpson is going to be out October 1st.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I think you're right about the foregone conclusion. There were moments when one of the parole members was asking him: did you take the class that you promised us you would take? He said, no. Did you take the alcohol counseling that you promised us that you would take? He said, no. You know, and he did not really show remorse. He gave, you know, the old, I'm sorry that this happened but it wasn't my fault excuse, essentially. So, you know, it appears that they did walk into that room feeling that this was a done deal, Mark.
FUHRMAN: Well, let's call it what it is. I think the fix was in. They wanted to get rid of Mr. Simpson. They were going to parole him. Nothing he said would probably make any difference. That sounds a little harsh, but I that's the reality. And I think you're right, Martha, everything that he did. I've been to a few parole hearings. I've violated a few people's parole. I've been in these hearings. And what he said about those weapons, the very reason that they're talking about parole would've kept him in prison. And the parole hearings had been off it. Somehow, he got out.
MACCALLUM: You were on the scene at Bundy, quickly after the horrific murders that took place there, Mark. What goes through your mind when you hear him say the words today, "I would never, ever pull a weapon on anybody"?
FUHRMAN: Well, Martha, you're seeing a classic sociopath, a narcissist, maybe even a psychopath. And he's talking; manipulating the crowd. He was doing exactly what he tried to do in the civil trial, but in this instance, there was no cross examination where he had an opponent that would actually break down what he was trying to say. That's what got him convicted in the civil trial. That, and there was evidence that was never brought forth in the criminal trial. But when I watched this, and I think of what he's saying, I think of one thing: he cut the mother of his children's -- the mother's throat of his children almost through all the way to cut her head off while they were sleeping upstairs in the residence. So that -- that, to me, it just boggles my mind how a man can actually live with that.
MACCALLUM: Yes. And he also said, you know, I've never hurt anybody. I'm not a guy that gets into conflict. I've led a conflict free life. You know, we played at the beginning of this, Mark, you heard it. That frightening phone call from Nicole Brown Simpson, saying he's coming back again, you know him. You know his record. I mean, how he can stand there and say that he's never had any conflict with that on his record? It's astonishing.
FUHRMAN: Well, it is. And when you look at -- we heard one call. There was a dozen. I was at one where he took a baseball bat and took out her windshield of her Mercedes, and she was bawling uncontrollably sitting with her car. I mean, I saw Simpson when he had that crazy look in his eyes, and then when he calmed down. Well, he did that a dozen times. And how many times did the police not get called? I mean, that's the issue. And yes, he's a violent man. And I doubt if he'll be able to make five years of parole.
MACCALLUM: Wow! Mark Fuhrman, thank you so much, good to have you with us tonight.
FURHMAN: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, joining us now with more: the Attorney to O.J. Simpson for this case, the robbery case where he was just granted parole, Yale Galanter. Yale, good evening, good to have you with us tonight. Your thoughts on what you saw in that --
YALE GALANTER, ATTORNEY TO O.J. SIMPSON: Thanks for having me.
MACCALLUM: Thanks for being here -- in that parole hearing today. What went through your mind as you listen to Mr. Simpson?
GALANTER: I thought that it was typical O.J. Simpson. I mean, it was O.J., being O.J. It was O.J. being a little remorseful, little contrite, little apologetic, but yet shifting the blame to others, dissecting the crime, the parts that he didn't feel he's responsible for. I thought that, really, the two stars of the show, I was very impressed with Arnelle's testimony and Bruce Fromong's testimony. I don't think I've ever seen a victim in over 35 years step up to the plate the way Bruce Fromong did, and go to that for O.J.'s release.
And I also just want to add that I agree with Mark, that I think this was a fait accompli. I think before the parole commissioners got into the room, they'd done his point totals, assessed his disciplinary record, assessed his age, his danger to the community, and he was going to be granted parole unless something totally, totally went south. It clearly didn't.
MACCALLUM: I just want to play the second sound bite that we have in the control room. Let's play that second piece for Yale, and get your thoughts on this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O. SIMPSON: I'm not a guy that has conflicts on the street. I don't expect to have anyone when I leave here, but I feel that I'm much better prepared. More so, I think my commitment to being a better Christian, because I thought it was a good guy, I had some problems with fidelity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: I mean, you know, I just keep going back to that tape of Nicole Simpson. Some problems with fidelity and then he laughed after that. You know, psychoanalyze, if you can for a moment. I know that's not, you know, completely your background but Attorneys are pretty good at reading clients. Read your client here.
GALANTER: It really takes your breath away. I mean, if somebody who looks in the mirror and doesn't see what the rest of the world sees; it's almost as if O.J. doesn't know he's O.J. And with the tapes in the reports and the analysis, it's just like it goes right over his head. So, I don't know whether its narcissism, or it's a sociopath, or it's just, you know, putting your head in the sand or being in complete denial.
But O.J. Simpson and you could see this with his testimony today -- in other words, if I was his lawyer, Martha, I would have told him three things: be remorseful, be contrite, and be apologetic. So, every other word that should've come up out of his mouth were, I'm sorry for what I've done, I accept total responsibility for what I've done, I've had nine years to reflect on what I've done, and I promise you it will never happen again. That did not happen.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Before I let you go, we just have about 20 seconds left. Do you think he can stay out of trouble?
GALANTER: Well, that's the issue, you know. Everyone's talking about him being free. He's not. He's on something called legal restraint. Parole is not going to be easy for him. It's almost like a dog on a leash. And I don't say that in a bad way, but he's going to have a parole officer who's going to tell him what he can do and what he can't do, and if he doesn't follow, he's going to be back in prison.
MACCALLUM: All right. Thank you very much, Yale, and our thanks to Mark Fuhrman as well. Good to see you both tonight. So, still ahead, the man President Trump has tapped to replace former FBI Director, James Comey; one-step closer now to making it official tonight, more on the significance of that, especially given everything that's going on, coming up.
And President Trump, lashing out at Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and Special Counsel Robert Mueller; we'll tell you how the White House is now reacting to this, this evening. Plus, who can forget the most famous car chase in American history? Up next, we talk to former LAPD Detective, Tom Lange, who was in charge of this investigation. He was on the phone with O.J. Simpson in those moments. You don't want to miss this, his thoughts on O.J.'s parole when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM LANGE, FORMER DETECTIVE, LAPD: It's appeared to me to be an overkill or enraged killing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LANGE: I observed one distinct set of bloody shoe prints between both victims. Both victims were killed in a similar manner: slicing and stabbing wounds. Both victims had their throats slashed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: That was former LAPD detective Tommy Lange, telling the court room and America what he saw as the lead detective at the heinous murder scene of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. Today's ruling that will set O.J. Simpson free on October 1; revolves around a bungled decade-old robbery. But 22 years ago, O.J. Simpson's defense team took what many saw as a cut and drives murder case, and essentially an indictment of race relations in America.
And one that saw that team put the LAPD on trial, essentially, joining me now the lead detective in O.J.'s murder investigation, Tom Lange. He is the author of "Evidence Dismissed," a book about the infamous case. Detective Lange, good to have you with us this evening, thank you very much for being here.
LANGE: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, now, O.J. Simpson will be free on October first. I'm sure you've moved on with your life, but I'm sure there's part of you today that realizes that that moment is about to happen. What do you think about it? I mean, what goes through your mind?
LANGE: Well, Martha, to begin with, this guy belongs in prison for the rest of his natural life -- that's the first thing -- but not for a robbery. And frankly, I'm surprised that he even did nine years. That was kind of a low-leveled robbery; nobody got hurt, nobody got shot. He thinks it's his own property -- this type of thing. But it's just another chapter in this psychopath's -- sociopath type of individual in his career. I think we haven't seen the last of the guy and he's going to continue as soon as he gets out.
MACCALLUM: And at what point in this trial -- we heard you talking about the evidence that you saw on the scene, and the evidence piled up throughout the course of this investigation. At what point during the trial did you start to feel this thing might be turning on us? They're turning us into something that is more about the credibility of you and your team, than whether or not O.J. Simpson killed these individuals.
LANGE: Yes. I was at a stand for a little over eight days. And as I'm sitting there, and I was being crossed-examined by Johnny Cochran, I would just look over at the jury and address them from time to time. They were only a few feet away. And as Cochran is laying out all of this nonsense about where I live, and what cops do, and if it doesn't fit, and all of a sudden of nonsense he went writing like crazy, yet when I'm on direct with Marsha, who's just sitting there glaring at me. So, when I was on the stand, it hit me at that time that I don't think we're going to get there with this one.
MACCALLUM: I want to play one sound bite from O.J. Simpson today, and get your response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O. SIMPSON: I would never, ever pull a weapon on anybody. I've always thought I've been pretty good with people. And I basically has spent a conflict free life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: What do you think?
LANGE: Well, I think we all need to have a sense of humor over that. His whole life has been a conflict. You go all the way back to his time at F.C. when there were complaints against him for abusing a couple of girls back then, all the way through his marriage. His whole life has been a conflict. He's in total denial because he's a sociopath. When something negative happens, it's all about them. It's not about me. I don't get involved in those types of things. But yes, you do. He's his own worst enemy in that regard.
MACCALLUM: Yes. Gregg Jarrett, one of our legal analysts, wrote about this today and he covered the case throughout as well. He says the crimes were consistent patterns of conduct for Simpson; when he gets angry, he resorts to violence and lawlessness. He's a ticking time bomb. Freedom will allow that fuse to be set again. He's 70-years-old now. Do you think that he can go through parole without a hitch?
LANGE: Well, it'll be interesting to watch. If I were a betting man I would say, no. It's just not in his nature. He's been down now for nine years, so he's getting ready to get out, and he's getting out doing what he wants. There's just narcissism within him. He's not going to let something like parole hold him up. If he wants to get involved in something one way or the other, he's going to do it. I don't think we've seen the last of guy.
MACCALLUM: Tom Lange, thank you very much. Good to have you with us tonight.
LANGE: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So, a closer look now at what happens to O.J. Simpson going forward. A question raised after the parolee himself alluded to his future as a free man earlier today. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O. SIMPSON: I'm at a point in my life, well, all I want to do is spend time with my -- as much time as I can with my children and my friends, and I might look into being involved in the media.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Joining me now: David Wohl is an Attorney, in fact, he represented one of the sports memorabilia dealers in this case, who said that O.J. stole from him; and Attorney Eric Guster is here as well. David, let me start with you because you were directly involved in this case; you were representing Mr. Beardsley, who was since passed away. Your thoughts on the outcome?
DAVID WOHL, ATTORNEY: Well, I'm not surprised at all. And the amazing thing was the way this parole board looked at the whole case with blinders on. Really, the only thing they considered was O.J.'s behavior while he was in custody. Because if they had considered, you know, the risk to the public based upon his history, based upon a court of law finding that he murdered two people, based upon he's going 13 years before he committed another violent takeover robbery.
This man poses a tremendous risk of harm to the public. There's no way he should have been let out, but he was. And now, the reality is, he's going to go back to probably entertainment, reality shows, making a lot of money, and back before he was. But I agree with the previous gentlemen that he is not going to last long on the streets. He's probably going to be one or two years before he's back behind bars, and we'll be talking about this again, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Eric Guster, What do you think? Do you agree with that?
ERIC GUSTER, ATTORNEY: I disagree with that; the parole board did the right thing. I'm not an O.J. fan, but they took into consideration his time in prison is almost nine years of good behavior, he took some classes about anger management, and he's been a model prisoner. And David is wrong, and he knows that they're only supposed to consider the criminal convictions of this man. They did.
The one that he was found guilty on that he didn't even appeal. They considered that, and everyone knows whether you're a lawyer or not, that nine years is a very long time for any type of strong armed robbery that this was and it was his stuff. So, they did the right thing. And like I said, I'm not an O.J. fan, but they did the right thing on this one.
WOHL: You know, Martha --
MACCALLUM: You know, he described something, David. And Mark Fuhrman just said, you know, that he described it inaccurately in his opinion based on what is on the case, that O.J. said, I didn't even know that these security guards were going to have guns. And Mark Fuhrman said that's not actually accurate. He wanted those security guys to have guns. What's your understanding having been close to the case?
WOHL: Yes, he absolutely knew it. Those guys came along with -- for additional intimidation effect. They went -- listen, by the way, when I represented Al Beardsley, we offered to sell the property that Al owned back to O.J. because O.J. expressed interest in it. O.J. said he's not going to pay one penny for it, and his little trip to the hotel -- a number of months later -- proved that.
He brought the guys with the guns to intimidate the other gentleman, and guess what? It's only by the grace of God that two more people or more than that weren't murdered, and O.J. would've had another double murder case. The guns weren't fired, fortunately, but this man is an exceptionally dangerous man. He's a sociopath. And when he gets out, I got to say to the citizens of Florida, look out for yourselves because this is not a gentleman that has learned anything.
GUSTER: And we have to remember that he's on parole. He's not just free, where he can just go anywhere. He will be monitored. He'll have to check in.
MACCALLUM: How long will that parole last?
GUSTER: You know, that's a good question, Martha --
WOHL: I'm not sure if how long the parole lasts.
GUSTER: I think it's going to be a number of years.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
WOLH: O.J. believes he could be anything.
GUSTER: His sentence was about 30 years. So, I would suspect around 10, but I'm not sure about the time. But they will monitor him, they will drug test him, make sure they know where he is. And if he has any type of violation: hitting a woman, almost crossing the street wrong, he will be brought back in court.
MACCALLUM: You know, the problem is he can't go back to his old life. And the people who want to hang out with him -- we found last time -- tend to be sort of nefarious characters. So, you know, that's how, you know, you get sucked into some difficult situations that it landed him back in jail or in jail for the first time.
WOHL: We'll be talking about this again soon, Martha.
MACCALLUM: David Wohl, thank you very much.
GUSTER: Don't bet on that, David.
MACCALLUM: Eric, good to see you too.
GUSTER: All right.
MACCALLUM: Thanks, you guys. So, also tonight, why is the White House cutting off a CIA program in the fight against Assad? Despite his cancer diagnosis, John McCain is speaking out about this. We will tell you the message that he is sending tonight. Then an investigation is underway following the bizarre disappearance of six teenagers who came to America for a science competition this week and are now gone. Also, President Trump's earliest supporter is now finding himself on the receiving end of the president's ire. And now, Attorney General Jeff Sessions is speaking out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Attorney General Sessions, how do you feel like you can effectively serve from here on out if you don't have the confidence of the president?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: We are back! And there's some more fallout tonight from President Trump's exclusive interview with The New York Times. The paper releasing audio of the interview where the president did not hold back on his feelings on Attorney General Jeff Sessions' recusal from the Russia investigation. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Jeff Sessions takes the job, gets into the job, and recuses himself. I then have -- which, frankly, I think it's very unfair to the president. How do you take a job and then recuse yourself? If he would've recused himself before the job, I would have said, "Thanks, Jeff, but I can't, you know, I'm not going to take you." It's extremely unfair, and that's a mild word to the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, the president went on to say this about Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who you saw here last night in our interview. Went on, "Then I said, 'who's your deputy?' So, his deputy, he hardly knew, and that's Rosenstein, Rod Rosenstein, who is from Baltimore. There are very few Republicans in Baltimore, if any." So, the president, both Sessions and Rosenstein addressed these comments today. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF SESSIONS, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I had the honor of serving as Attorney General. It's something that goes beyond any thought I would have ever had for myself. We love this job. We love this department. And I plan to continue to do so, as long as that is appropriate.
ROD ROSENSTEIN, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm as proud to be here today, I'm proud to be here today, I'll be proud to work here tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, for more let's go to Chief National Correspondent, Ed Henry, on the lawn at the White House. Hi, Ed!
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Martha, good to see you. One of the reasons why President Trump was elected in the first place, is there are millions of voters all around the country who believed that he delivers a straight talk, pulls no punches, even if that means blistering one of his most loyal lieutenants. And that's what we saw here, the president telling the New York Times -- yes, that paper he likes to call fake news and the failing New York Times. That he would not have nominated Jeff Sessions if he knew the attorney general was going to recused himself from that Russia investigation. The president clearly still angry that move by Sessions paved the way for the justice department to punt the Russia probe to special counsel Robert Mueller, who appears maybe to be expanding that probe the president has called a witch hunt into, yes, potentially the Trump family finances. Today, White House spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee Sanders said the president was just being candid and is disappointed in the attorney general, but still has confidence in him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: As the president said yesterday. He was disappointed in the attorney general Session's decision to recuse himself, but clearly he has confidence in him or he would not be the attorney general.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: You've talked about what happened with Jeff Sessions, well there's also lingering questions about the long term fate of the special counsel, Mr. Mueller. Bloomberg reporting Mueller has now expanded his probe into the president's business finances in that New York Times interview. The president had specifically warned against that saying it would be a violation of the original mandate to investigate meddling in the 2016 election. Although, he seemed to leave some wiggle room that perhaps Mueller could look into finances dealing specifically with Russia. The bottom line is the president would not commit to not firing Mueller. And today, his aide said there are no plans to fire Mueller, an interesting caveat out here, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Ed, thank you very much. Here now with more, David Bossie, the president of Citizen United, and the Trump 2016 deputy campaign manager, he's also a Fox News contributor, and Juan Williams, co-host of The Five, and a Fox News political analysist. So let's talk about the politics of this. David, good evening. Good to see you once again. Why the New York Times, why this interview? What is the strategy from the president on this?
DAVID BOSSIE, CITIZEN UNITED PRESIDENT: Well, the president talks to the media all the time. And he's done that throughout his entire career, not just his presidency. And so, this is something that he routinely does. It's one of the reasons that he got elected in the first place, and Ed kind of touch on it. He speaks openly and honestly all the time. He's not politically correct. He's not as guarded as a lot of D.C. politicians, one of the reasons that he won the election last November. People felt like he spoke the truth and he told people what they needed to hear, not what they wanted to hear. So the president is just doing what he always does, which is to tell people what the truth is in his heart.
MACCALLUM: I got you. Do you think the White House that there was concern about this interview after it started leaking out last night, or coming out last night?
BOSSIE: Well, I would assume that the president and his staff, the staff of the president knew that the interview had gone on. So I don't know what concern there was or wasn't. I know that this president is about doing his job, and he's shown his frustration, obviously, because he had a great day yesterday with the health care meeting with the 52 senators. I think he was having a great time in trying to move that legislation forward, at the same time, dealing with this kind of witch hunt that he has to deal with every day.
MACCALLUM: Juan, what do you think?
JUAN WILLIAMS, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: Well, I think the White House was concern. So what I heard today was people talking about the president as someone who is a big believer in loyalty and being faithful to people who brought you to the party, and Jeff Sessions is almost the definition of that in the Trump world, as the first senator to have endorsed Donald Trump, introduced Donald Trump, and stayed with him. It almost seems like he was calling -- sending a message to Jeff Sessions, maybe it's time for you to leave, Jeff Sessions. Remember, Sessions, offered his resignation earlier, Trump did not accept it, but the bitterness seems to have lingered. And I think that's why you're hearing people in the White House expressed concern. They did not know that he was going to go off message. Also, David said accurately, the president speaks his mind. But in this case, if he was talking about health care, if he was talking about tax reform coming down the pike, people would understand it. He brought up Russia and put it back in the headlines, Martha.
MACCALLUM: I mean, you could sort of hear his stream of consciousness and as he's going through this. I mean, he said, well, basically if Sessions is gone, and then I've got Rosenstein. I'm not sure that's a good option. He's working through all of that as he's talking about it. Let's put up at this poll. I thought it was very interesting about what people care about out there in America, and what the media is covering. The long blue line at the bottom of that screen is what is being covered, Russia at 75 percent. And what do people care about? Health care is the biggest of the issues on that list, David. And job is second. So the president could be going right into that wheelhouse and just health care, jobs, hammering those messages over and over again. But who brought it back to Russia? The president did this time.
BOSSIE: This is exactly why the president is frustrated. You can see it every single day that he wants -- he tries every single day, wakes up every day to do the job for the American people that he got elected to do, and that is to create jobs, jobs, jobs.
MACCALLUM: All you have to do is say to these reporters, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm done. I want to talk about health care and I want to talk about jobs.
BOSSIE: But he's frustrated.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: I'm not going to talk about.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: Look, there's nothing there, and you all going to see that there's nothing there.
(CROSSTALK)
BOSSIE: James Comey created the need for a special counsel purposefully, and that's what frustrates him. James Comey in his own testimony said I leaked these memos, which is a violation of DOJ policy. I leaked these memos to put pressure on Jeff Sessions to appoint a special counsel. That infuriated, obviously, the president. It frustrates him because he can't get health care through, and he can't get -- he can't talk about jobs, jobs, job. And he can't get -- on the tax reform. So this is a frustrating thing that he's dealing with.
MACCALLUM: One more part of this in here because Kushner, and Manafort, and Donald Trump, Jr., Juan, are going to be testifying behind closed doors next week. It's not going away, the situation, clearly.
WILLIAMS: No. You know, just to pick up on what you guys were talking about, I think in some ways what you're seeing here is President Trump being the kind of guy who thinks, you know what, I can talk my way out of this. I can make a deal whatever it's on his mind, clearly, Martha. You're talking about the stream of consciousness evident in the interview, but I think he's never run in to somebody like an Elliot Ness or a Wyatt Earp. You know, they're lawmen. You don't negotiate. They're the law. In this case, next week, when you have Manafort up there, but also Kushner behind closed doors, you don't know what you get. It comes back into the headlines. People are going to be potentially pointing fingers at each other in the president's most intimate camp. And I think you're going to have more troubles.
MACCALLUM: Right. Thank you so much. David Bossie, I've got to go. I promise you get the first thought next time, and Juan, good to see you both tonight. Thank you. So coming up next, President Trump make the visit to the Pentagon, and he makes a big decision on Syria. General Jack Keane on those breaking developments, and details of a phone call that he had this evening with Senator John McCain, we'll talk to him about that coming up. Also this bizarre story, the disappearance of six teenagers who were here from Burundi on a robotics contest, where are these people tonight?
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MACCALLUM: Some short story here. One step closer, Christopher Wray, President Trump's new pick to lead the FBI, unanimously approved by the senate judiciary committee, just hours ago. Trump nominated Wray to lead the agency last month after firing James Comey. Wray's nomination now heads to the full senate for the confirmation vote.
And new development in this strange story out of D.C., law enforcement has located two of these six African teens reported missing from an international robotics competition in Washington. They're from Burundi. The two were spotted crossing into Canada this morning, but their ultimate destination is unknown to the police. The other four reported missing on Tuesday night. D.C. police say that they believe no foul play is suspected, more on that when we find out.
So there are new reports tonight that President Trump is halting a CIA operation that armed Syrian rebels against the brutal regime of Bashar al- Assad. Critics calling this move a victory for Russia, whose military backed Assad. Chief amongst those critics is Senator John McCain. In his first political remarks since announcing his brain cancer diagnosis, McCain said this, the administration is playing right into the hands of Vladimir Putin, asking any concessions to Russia absent of broader strategy for Syria is irresponsible and shortsighted, said Senator McCain. Here now is General Jack Keane, chairman of the institute for the study of war, and a Fox News military analyst. General, good to have you here tonight.
JACK KEANE, FOX NEWS MILITARY ANALYST: Good to be here, Martha.
MACCALLUM: First of all, we mentioned earlier that you had spoken with Senator McCain. How is he doing and what do you talk about?
KEANE: Well, first of all, as been reported, his spirits are very much the same. He doesn't want to talk about his illness. He was talking about this business with the administration moving away from the Syrian moderates. By the way, the Syrian moderates are the only opposition forces that fighting for a democracy in Syria. Not the Islamic State and so they're not radicalize Islamic State. But getting back to the senator, I'll tell you, he's the most honorable, selfless, courageous politician I've ever met in my lifetime. It's no wonder the American people have such affection for him, regardless of what their politics may be. But he's full of life, he's full of spirit. He'll come back here when his doctors gave him the green light. So he can travel, essentially, what the issue is. There's no noticeable effect in talking to him with anything to do with the illness, and the doctors are saying that's not surprising. He'll be John McCain when he gets back here for sure.
MACCALLUM: We look forward to that. One of the reasons I think he's so respected across the aisle is that he's a person of conviction. And whether people agree with him or disagree with him, he is passionate, and he has conviction, and he loves his work in the senate. And I think everybody will welcome him back. Just explain for everybody, though, why is this such an odd move in your mind, and it really does not -- it doesn't send a good signal for an administration that is trying to make it clear that they are not interested in doing something that sort of -- in any way to what Russia wants.
KEANE: Well, the Syrian moderates are always been the force that we have aligned with. And obviously, there's been a covert operation to provide them with lethal aid, specifically -- missiles. And I can tell you, for a fact, because at the institute of the study of war, where I'm at, we tracked this every day. And they have been quite effective against the Assad regime forces. The moderate forces in the north has been attrited, but the one in the south has not been. So what mystifies me is why we would undermine them. Morale is going to be impacted by this when we take these weapons away from them. We're going to make them more vulnerable to the Assad regime, to the Iranians, and also to the al-Qaeda, who is likely to attack them. As a result of it, they'll likely lose some members because they'll head over to the more radicalized groups because they think they have a future and the moderates do not. So it makes no sense in doing this. And I agree with others who've said why make this concession? Certainly, if this is round one between President Trump and Putin, and we make a concession like this either before the deal or during the deal of establishing a de-escalation zone, this doesn't look too favorable to the United States. I think we have lost round one.
MACCALLUM: CIA director Mike Pompeo, I just got word is speaking in Aspen at that conference. And he is trying to make this very clear. He said our aim in Syria, in this case, is to stick it to Russia. You know, words in that effect. You feel that this action -- that their goals are sticking it to America, excuse me. So you feel that this goes against that?
KEANE: Oh, yeah, absolutely. When the Russians came in and made their military interventions, September 2015, with airpower, Secretary Kerry told them do not attack this Syrian moderate forces. They were the first forces the Russians attacked with no consequences to it. And what's happening in Syria with this action is under minding the capability of this force.
MACCALLUM: All right. So Mike Pompeo saying that the Russian goal is to stick it to America in their actions in that area. General Keane, thank you so much. Good to see you as always.
KEANE: Good talking to you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Coming up next here tonight, President Trump lashing out over Jeff Sessions Russia recusal, and giving special counsel Robert Mueller a red line. So the question on D.C. mind, will they last the summer? Karl Rove and Mo Elleithee with some very strong feelings on all of this, right after the break.
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MACCALLUM: Between his obvious anger at attorney general Jeff Sessions and the recusal that he did from this Russia investigation, and then also the warning of redlines when it comes to special counsel Mueller. Is it possible that we could see changes in the offices of both of these men by the end of the summer? Karl Rove is former deputy chief of staff to President George W. Bush, Mo Elleithee is executive director of the Georgetown Institute of politics and public service, both are Fox News contributors. Gentlemen, welcome. Good to have both of you with us tonight. So earlier today, Sarah Huckabee Sanders came out to the podium and she spoke about the confidence that the president has in General Sessions. It didn't take long for comparisons to be made to times that we've heard that before from the White House press office. Watch these.
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UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: General Flynn does enjoy the full confidence of the president.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: The president has confidence in the director.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Not so much after a short time. Karl, how does this look for Sessions?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I hope he stays. And Donald Trump ought to hope that he stays. Can you imagine what would happen if he were to force out the sitting attorney general, the next nominee would face an unbelievably brutal confirmation hearing, and if you think it's difficult to get a message out, David Bossie earlier on said, oh, the president -- on Wednesday to have the press be all about the good meeting that he had with Republican senators. Well, he himself went out and stepped on it by giving the interview to the New York Times. Can you imagine what the next six months would be like with a battle over the president forcing out -- Donald Trump forcing out Jeff Sessions, or Jeff Sessions and his deputy Rod Rosenstein? It would be horrific for the president's agenda and unnecessary. The same with Robert Mueller, I'm sorry, but he's stuck. You cannot force out a special counsel without having huge political consequences, and the president's agenda for the balance of the year and, potentially, the 2018 midterm election would be out the window if he were to follow that.
MACCALLUM: I mean, Eric Holder, obviously, and President Obama had a very good relationship. And Eric Holder tried to sort of carry forth the ideas that the president had. They were very much in sync. Loretta Lynch had a little bit of trouble when it came to the Hillary Clinton situation and she had to step aside. So you look at the history of former presidents, Mo, it's important for these two to sort of find some ground where they can work together well, is it not?
MO ELLEITHEE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Look, I mean, the attorney general himself said it today that ideologically in a lot of policies issue, he and the president are very much aligned. But the attorney general because of where things were at the time -- really didn't have much of a choice.
MACCALLUM: Yeah, that's a good point.
ELLEITHEE: But to recuse himself, right? And in some ways, I think he did it in order to give some distance from the White House, right? When the attorney general.
MACCALLUM: He had to do it because the department of justice said if you worked on a campaign, and that campaigns is being investigated, you have no choice but to recuse yourself, correct?
ELLEITHEE: I think that's exactly right.
ROVE: One correction.
MACCALLUM: Go ahead, Karl.
ROVE: It's not the department of justice. It's the law. John Ashcroft had to do this. It's not a rule. It's not a statement made by the justice department. It's a law in the United States, passed by the congress, and sign by the president. John Ashcroft had to recused himself in the Bush years on the Valerie Plame issue because I was involved in it, and I had been his consultant when he ran for governor and U.S. senator. And those statutes were clear. He had to recuse himself. Same with Jeff Sessions, who is a senior advisor to President Trump in his campaign.
MACCALLUM: Gentlemen, thank you. I've got to go. Thank you very much. Good to see you both. So coming up, an extra beautiful tribute to one of our nation's finest heroes from someone who knows him best.
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MACCALLUM: So finally tonight, despite the fact that John McCain appears to be his feisty self and wants none of it. Telling his dear friend Lindsey Graham to, quote, buck up today. Our quote of the night is the lovely statement that was put out by his daughter and our colleague, Meghan McCain, which says in part, he's a warrior at dusk, one of the greatest Americans of our age, and a worthy heir to his father's and grandfather's name. But to me he is something more. He's my strength, my example, my refuge, my confidant, my teacher, my rock, my hero, my dad. Senator McCain tweeting this morning, I greatly appreciate the outpouring of support, unfortunately for my spying partner in congress, I'll be back soon, so stand by. We look forward to that, Senator McCain, and we wish you well. Send us your story at home. Tweet us at @thestoryFNC using the #thestory. That's our story for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow at 7. Tucker Carlson is up next.
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