Gary Johnson on fighting the ISIS threat

Libertarian presidential candidate joins 'The Five'


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 23, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello everyone, I'm Eric Bolling along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perrino and Greg Gutfeld. Its 5:00 in New York City and this is "The Five."

Today, a presidential candidate is going to join us right here at the table live. Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson is here. How does he plan to defeat Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump? We'll ask him just ahead, but first, brand new bombshell evidence of pay to play deals between the Clinton Foundation and Hillary's State Department.

Newly released e-mails and phone records exposing the ties that the Democratic nominee has long denied. They show a senior executive at the Clinton Foundation was in regular contact with Cheryl Mills, Hillary's chief of staff when she was Secretary of State.

Meanwhile, Clinton said she turned everything over to the feds, but the FBI has dug up 15,000 previously unreleased e-mails. Hillary was on Kimmel last night, brushing the matter off.


JIMMY KIMMEL, ABC JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE SHOW HOST: I actually added it up today and the State Department said that they have to release 15,000 e-mails by the deadline. It's a couple of days before the debate. Are you concerned about that?


KIMMEL: Because I would be terrified if my e-mails were released.

CLINTON: But Jimmy, my e-mails are so boring and, I mean, I'm embarrassed about that. They're so boring. So, we've already released, I don't know, 30,000 plus. So what's a few more?


BOLLING: Now, Donald Trump is calling for the Justice Department to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate.


DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The amounts involved, the favors done and the significant number of times it was done require an expedited investigation by a special prosecutor immediately, immediately, immediately. After the FBI and Department of Justice whitewash Hillary Clinton's e-mail crimes, they certainly cannot be trusted to quickly or impartially investigate Hillary Clinton's new crimes, which happen all the time.


BOLLING: And in Associated Press review has calculated that more than half the people outside the government who met with Clinton while she was Secretary of State gave money to the Clinton Foundation, more than $150 million. Now, (inaudible) special prosecutor, not a bad idea.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: You know, yeah, it's not a bad idea. You want somebody to do the job, don't you? You want someone to go through and make sure that there is transparency because right now it's not like sort of a speculation. There is evidence that there is pay for play going on.

This is the last thing you want with the government. The last thing you want with someone who's going to be commander-in-chief and leader of the free world, somebody who has influence peddling and connections with the Clinton Foundation. It also shows poor judgment. You know you were running for president, OK. Why did you even engage in this? Why didn't you disassociate yourself completely from it?

Why is it that people were able to get direct access to the secretary of state, someone who was seeking the office of the presidency quicker, easier, than through direct channels, straight through the Clinton Foundation? That's how you open the gate.

BOLLING: Juan, its pay to play, is it not?


BOLLING: What is it then?

WILLIAMS: I'm sitting here -- I'm sitting here thinking...

BOLLING: If you're taking money, providing access.

WILLIAMS: You know, you guys are hyperventilating because, you know, Donald hasn't pivoted and things don't look great. But I'm just telling you, you know what, there's a real case to be made about the Clinton Foundation and quid pro quo and lack of proprietary.

BOLLING: That's what we're doing -- that's what we're doing.

WILLIAMS: But you're not making the case. You're saying, oh yeah, this is proof but there's no proof. There's no proof that she did anything, that she offered -- let me just finish. There's not an iota of proof that she offered one special favor because of a donation to the Clinton Foundation. When you get that, come back to me.

GUILFOYLE: Access and meetings.

BOLLING: So access is provided.

WILLIAMS: Access, yes, so?

BOLLING And then, Juan, OK, access and then later on deals were struck between U.S. corporations and foreign entities.

WILLIAMS: No. If you find...

BOLLING: It is yes -- it is yes. There is Boeing (ph), there's GE, there is Uranium One. I mean...

WILLIAMS: No, look, all of these deals, they're deals that are done all the time. But if you say to me, hey Juan, you know what, I think this Clinton Foundation just doesn't look right because guess what, they're taking money, she's secretary -- I say yes, Eric, you got me. But at this point...

BOLLING: Russians dropped $145 million in the Clinton Foundation after they did a deal getting 25 percent of uranium. That's the deal.

WILLIAMS: They get what? What are you talking about? This is so weak. I just -- I'm amazed, but I guess you guys are desperate.

BOLLING: Let's move on. Dana, pay to play? Yes, no?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, it certainly doesn't look clean, and I think what Juan is saying is that you can't -- there might not even be evidence that exists that says, OK, so she had a meeting -- so she got the meeting. Getting the meeting is important. That's not always easy to do. So, the Clinton Foundation, of course, you can see it in the e-mails, they're constantly calling over saying, "Oh, hey, can you meet with this person? They're one of our friends." So no, none of that looks good.

The thing I'm worried about when terms of a special prosecutor is that if they kick this -- let's say that the Justice Department says fine, we'll take you up on that special prosecutor idea. And then that gives the Clinton campaign a reason to just shut down talking about it at all, and they'll just slow walk it. And the special prosecutor, in order to do due diligence, it would take weeks and possibly put it beyond the election anyway.

So, I think actually the stuff that the reporters are coming up with -- like what the A.P. did today is actually very damning. The other problem is that Republicans have tried to rely on beating the Clintons based on these scandals as they see them, for decades and it doesn't work. I'm not saying not pursue it, but they can't rely on it.

BOLLING: Let me -- may I throw one more thing out here and Juan you can chime in after Greg answers this. The 33,000 e-mails that she destroyed, she said they were personal e-mails. Does that mean Clinton Foundation business was on those as well, because they will not answer that question? Because if there was, I think now you might have a right to go back.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Interesting, these e-mails now have a life of their own. It's like mildew in a bathroom that just keeps growing and growing and Hillary's response is like on Kimmel, just turn out the light therefore you don't see it. She just says, oh, there's nothing there.

But we actually see it and you have room (ph) -- in terms of this pay for play thing, Huma Abedin was selling influence under the guise of access. Basically what she was selling was a speed pass that you get at Disneyland, and you get it, oh, this is the next thing?

BOLLING: Can I read this?


BOLLING: Hold that thought because this is exactly what Greg is talking about. One of the newly discovered e-mail exchanges show top Clinton aide, Huma Abedin, giving a major Clinton Foundation donor special access to the secretary -- the crown prince of Bahrain. On June 23, 2009, Doug Band, a top Clinton Foundation executive wrote to Clinton aide Huma Abedin working at the State Department saying quote, "CP, meaning crown prince of Bahrain, in tomorrow to Friday asking to see her. Good friend of ours" as what Dana pointed out as well.

Abedin wrote back, "He asked to see hrc Thursday and Friday through normal channels and I asked and she doesn't want to commit to anything for Thursday or Friday until she knows how she will feel." Within 48 hours, Abedin offered up a time for the crown prince to meet with Clinton quote, "Offering Bahrain CP, crown prince, 10 tomorrow for mtg with hrc. If you see him, let him know we have reached out through official channels." Your thoughts.

GUTFELD: Yeah, I mean, it is like it's the speed pass at Disneyland. These people have so much money that unlike other American citizens, they don't have to wait in line. So, all they got to do is pay up, they get in. They get to go on the Matterhorn, they get to go on Space Mountain, they get to essentially go into the State Department because of this. Also, Huma, you know, she...

GUIFOYLE: The VIP pass, that's what it is.

GUTFELD: Yes. She left classified papers in the trunk of a car in India. She had stuff in the seat pocket. And here we thought it was her husband, Anthony Weiner who is guilty of exposure, she leaves stuff everywhere. But she should not be in the white --- if this administration happens, they can't have her there.

GUILFOYLE: That's the point, exactly.

BOLLING: I have a very, very important question for Juan Williams.

PERINO: Can I add one thing to that? I'm sorry because I don't want to mess up the important question. I just want to point out that Huma Abedin, when she's doing this, she's working for both the U.S. taxpayer and Teneo, which is where Doug Band worked, which is what had the Clinton global initiative announced.

WILLIAMS: All of us, I think...

BOLLING: Here's a very important question. Juan I need you to answer this.


BOLLING: What in the world would a crown prince want to pay $32 million to meet with Hillary Clinton about?

WILLIAMS: I don't think he paid. I think he gave -- he gave the money to the foundation.


WILLIAMS: It's not like he paid as good as a bribe.

BOLLING: For access.

WILLIAMS: Well, that's your assumption, not my assumption.

BOLLING: No, no.

WILLIAMS: Look, I'm going to assume that he gave them money and let's put your interpretation on it, that he thought, oh, this will guarantee me a meeting with Secretary Clinton.

BOLLING: For $32 million, he's the crown prince of Bahrain...

WILLIAMS: Let's just say...

BOLLING: of the most strategic countries in the Middle East. I'm guessing he would get that meeting if he wanted to wait. What was so urgent?

WILLIAMS: I don't know what he was -- because in fact, Bahrain, I would guess, had been banned from receiving U.S. military weapons because of their human rights violations. So, there was a ban so, I don't know that they were getting any great treatment from the U.S. government.

BOLLING: But isn't that -- isn't that -- couldn't that be perceived as a pay to play? I have to drop $32 million in the foundation, I get access to maybe making a deal?

WILLIAM: You're talking about perceptions (ph).

GUILFOYLE: Not to Juan.

WILLIAM: Again, you just said perceived and I'm with you on this. I think that it opens the door to negative perception.


WILLIAMS: But if you're saying to me, hey, we've got the evidence, you don't have a thing.

BOLLING: Not yet.

GUILFOYLE: Because that's been deleted and now we're seeing that there's in fact, evidence to be pursued, in fact, that she wasn't compliant. In fact, there were additional e-mails destroyed. So, it's all problematic. And you know where we first heard about this, Juan, at this table? From you.

WILLIAM: Yeah, that's why I said to Eric, I don't like it. I don't like the appearance. It looks quid pro quo. But today, you guys are acting like, you know what, we got this.

BOLLING: I've been talking about this for four years. I'm cashing in. We've been hitting in the back (ph) the Clinton foundation. If you go to the Clinton Foundation, they'll list the companies by name and give you a range of the amount of money they've donated to the foundation and you look at some of these deals they're doing. Some U.S. corporations doing some deals with some pretty shady groups overseas. You wonder if there's anything tied together.

WILLIAMS: Wait a minute, people give money to politicians all the time, Eric.

BOLLING: And if you're getting a deal in return for that money that's...

WILLIAMS: But there's no evidence to that.


GUTFELD: Here's what -- the end result is, how does this affect the election? Hillary is hoping to run out the clock.


GUTFELD: She wants to get to November before the e-mails get to her. So, everybody has been talking for the past year what a gamble Trump has been for the Republican Party. The real gamble, the real risk is backing Hillary because you always knew that there was this like giant hive of e-mails waiting to burst and it could burst at any time. So, they're just praying right now to get to November before the real thing explodes. They put all of their chips on a historical first and that blinded them to this very, very, very large flaw.


BOLLING: Let's get to this. I want to get Dana involved in this one. A lot of people are calling for the Clinton Foundation to fold over this. Long time very long time Clinton ally, James Carville, in his dramatic fashion, warns of dire consequences if it does.


JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The Clinton Foundation was A, taking no money for the Clintons. Raising money from rich people and giving it to poor people and all of a sudden the press has decided that we're going to go after this and shut it down. You know what? You're probably going to be successful. And then there are going to be people out there die because of this.


BOLLING: People are going to die if the Clinton Foundation folds.

PERINO: Yes, so, little bit overdramatic. I do think that the Clinton administration and you saw this in Bill Clinton's statement yesterday about he said he would step down if she becomes president -- that he would step down. And then he lists about, you know, a page and a half of all the good work that the Clinton Global Initiative has done. Though there have been questions and the "New York Times" raised them about where did all this money actually go?

And also I think that the Hillary Clinton people -- remember the two camps, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton people? You can imagine the Hillary people are sort of annoyed because the crown prince of Bahrain, maybe on the merits, could have gotten a meeting with Secretary of State. Huma Abedin said he went through normal channels to try to get the meeting and they have tried to be helpful where they can be in the global war on terror. So presumably, he could have gotten that meeting.

But what the Clinton Global Initiative did, what Doug Band was doing, was sweetening that possibility and basically making it look to the crown prince of Bahrain that if you do this, then it is more assured to you would be able to get that meeting with her. It's all pretty bad. And it's not the media's fault for bringing this up. If Carville thinks that people are going to die, this is not something that we came up with. This is something that is being revealed.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, what Carville was saying, Dana, it's a five-star charity, according to Independent Charity Rating Organizations. He makes the point that Clintons have taken no money. In fact, they've given money. So, that's not the point. The point is that it looks bad. It looks just like what we're talking about, that someone is pay to play as Eric described.

GUILFOYLE: And therefore isn't it worthy of an investigation? Yes. WILLIAMS: No.

BOLLING: We do have to go. They're wrapping us...

GUTFELD: Remember what Bernie Sanders said? No one cares about these e- mails.

GUILFOYLE: Damn e-mails.

GUTFELDS: Damn e-mails. I didn't want to swear.

BOLLING: We need to go, but again, (inaudible) decided not to raise that charity because they couldn't figure it out. Five star maybe in the past. Not now.

President Obama finally made it to Louisiana today to tour the damage from catastrophic floods that have displaced thousands and killed at least 13. What he said when he got there, coming up.

And still ahead, Libertarian presidential nominee Gary Johnson joins us in studio at this table. He thinks he can beat Trump and Clinton in November. We'll tell you how in a few minutes. Don't go away.


GUILFOYLE: Well, thousands of residents in Louisiana are in need of help after widespread floods destroyed their businesses and their homes. Sean Hannity spoke to some of them yesterday when he traveled to Baton Rouge.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hate to say this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I love America. I don't want to live anywhere else and I know our crew does the best that they can do.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I don't think Washington gives a hoot about anybody but their pockets.

HANNITY: Did you see the president playing golf during all this?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I didn't, because I don't have a TV.


GUILFOYLE: Good point. President Obama finally visited the disaster zone today and addressed the criticism over his delayed trip.


BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Sometimes once the flood waters pass, people's attention spans pass. This is not a one-off. This is not a photo-op issue. One of the benefits of being five months short of leaving here is I don't worry too much about politics.

You know, when disaster strike, that's probably one of the few times where Washington tends not to get political. I guarantee you nobody on this block, none of those first responders, nobody gives a hoot whether you're a Democrat or Republican.


GUILFOYLE: OK, so Dana what do you think after hearing these comments that -- I don't know. I was kind of surprised by them to be honest.

PERINO: Both the woman that Sean Hannity interviewed and President Obama used "don't give a hoot." It was actually kind of an interesting phrase -- turn a phrase. You wonder if he was watching Sean Hannity, although I doubt that. I think that the things about -- President Obama said that he doesn't worry about politics now, but when he was running he would take advantage of politics and go after people for their disaster response, fine.

So we're going to call that water under the bridge. I think the important thing on this point is on FEMA claims, that they get responded too quickly, because that is true, that a lot of people don't have flood insurance. What are you guys talking -- what are you laughing about?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said water under the bridge.

PERINO: I know, I said that on purpose because whether like there are floodwaters under the bridge.


PERINO: I don't know, that's all I have.


GUTFELD: Should I add to that though?

PERINO: Please do.

GUTFELD: Can I add to that?


GUTFELD: You know, but, there's something very important there that you touched on. President Obama admits that this whole disaster idea is political.


GUTFELD: And he admitted, he goes, now that I'm not running anymore, I don't have to be -- it doesn't matter as much to show up or when not to show up. But when I'm running, I will not only show up, I will castigate anybody and everybody who is politically different from me. So, as much as I'm sick and tired of this ping pong of who is less caring and that oh, we're going to do this story because it hurts Obama and MSNBC is going to do the story because it hurt Bush, the fact is, the politics as personal began in the world of liberalism.

They're the ones that made it an essential ingredient in every meal. If you belch, someone is going to politicize it. It wasn't like that 30 years ago. So now when there are people suffering, the only time we talk about it is if we can get political points.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I know. And it just seems there that he was just so glib about it. I didn't feel the genuine concern, I don't know, it just bothered me. We saw that clip that we just played and talk about trying not -- rehabilitate, make yourself look good. Talk about the people, talk about the suffering and about what you can do to make a difference.

BOLLING: He's genuinely relaxed. He's relieved. He doesn't have to play politics, as Greg and Dana have pointed out. It's much better for him now. He can just show up when he wants to show up.

GUILFOYLE: He said he's done too.

BOLLING: That appearance though, he didn't decide to go there until Donald Trump changed his plans and went there. Here is the big question though. Where is Hillary? When is she going to go? Is she going to go? If she doesn't go, is she's going to say something? Is she going to do something about it? Bill Clinton was always going to these things.

He was very good about going to disasters and helping people out and showing his face, saying, hey, these people need help, and forget what the politics are. If you listen to the people in Louisiana, even the elected officials in Louisiana, they are saying we need more attention, we need more resources. We need more help. And then the president shows up, you get attention, you get resources.

GUILFOYLE: It's true and that's what you want, you want to help people that are suffering and families and you know, I mean you just, they don't have anything. All their belongings are out in the front yardor floating around.

WILLIAM: Let me just talk about some facts for a second. One, the president had talked about going much earlier and was asked not to go by Governor John Bell Edwards. Why? Because you don't want all the attention to the president in the midst of a crisis and that totally makes sense.

The second thing to say is $120 million in aid has been approved for Louisiana in the last two weeks. So, this idea that, oh, gee, nothing -- federal government is not doing -- no, no help. Wait a second. That's not true.

BOLLING: Juan, this is almost 10, 11 days since the (inaudible) drop trillions of gallons...

WILLIAMS: That's fine. Let me just say, if you were concerned -- if you were concerned with the parents (ph), you do what Donald Trump did, which is basically a fly in


BOLLING: They were happy that Trump came.

WILLIAMS: No, they said fine. Once he's there, it's a fact because it pays attention to the crisis, to the disaster.

BOLLING: What does the president do? He draws more attention.

WILLIAM: No, the president would draw things like State Troopers, police. Everybody would have to protect and surround the president.

BOLLING: Presidents shouldn't show up to disasters ever?

WILLIAMS: No, absolutely not because I think the president is comforter-in- chief. And going back to what Dana was talking about, what happened with President Bush I Katrina 11 years ago was the left -- this is what Greg was saying -- attacked him and they felt, oh. But you know what, there was real failure by FEMA during that time, and I think people will acknowledge that so, that's not the point.

PERINO: The point that you just made about being -- that the president shouldn't go and take resources away, it is something that I said on the record.

WILLIAMS: Right. Well, that's right.

PERINO: And that the left did not -- the problem was (inaudible) all the time.

WILLIAMS: The problem Dana was -- the problem of the FEMA...

PERINO: I agree with that but that was not politically what they went after.


PERINO: They went after him personally, although it is true.

WILLIAMS: I'll give you that point, but I'm just saying FEMA had some real problems.

PERINO: Well, the other thing is, we didn't cover this story about the floods until it became political either and we should have done more.

GUILFOYLE: We did a one more thing on it though.

WILLIAMS: You did.

GUILFOYLE: We did as a group and now we're covering it and we're going to stay on it, right? Stay tuned because up next, Gary Johnson makes his "Five" debut. The Libertarian presidential nominee on his bid to the White House and war on terror, immigration and much, much more, ahead.


GUTFELD: After every recent ISIS-related attack, we're warned not to go overboard in the war on terror. We're told by libs and Libertarians alike that you're more likely to get struck by lightning than offed by a jihadist. That's the thing with statistics: They can be right until they go very wrong.

Let's take lightning. While it's true it's a common threat, there are things you can do to escape it. Don't stand in a field during a storm, holding a 5 wood. Not so much with a suicide bomber. Unlike lightning, a terrorist goes out of his way to seek victims. A terrorist has a brain. Lightning doesn't. When you close one door, the terrorist finds a window. Also, lightning hasn't changed in billions of years. Terror changes more so than climate. As it weds to technology, the body count rises. No longer a plane and a box cutter, it will be drone and anthrax. You can expect a major attack hitting a big city in the next decade. Sorry.

Meanwhile, lone wolf attacks continue, caused by a zombie virus called radical Islam. So, don't buy in to the binary choices of panic and relax. We need vigilance and a willingness to fight. The saying goes: With terror, we have to be right all the time. Terrorists, only once. It's a logic lost on so many leaders armed with statistics, but little else.

So, we've got a special guest. Here now, teleprompter, who happens to be running for president. How would he fight terror if he wins? Gary Johnson is the Libertarian Party nominee. He's a former Republican governor of New Mexico, a lovely state. Welcome to "The Five" governor. How come you don't want to fight ISIS?

GARY JOHNSON, LIBERTARIAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: First of all, I agree with everything that you said on the premise of that. I mean, it sets it all up.


JOHNSON: And yes, we are at war with terrorism. Make no bones about it. As president of the United States, we need to have an invincible national defense. But when we get involved in regime changes, I can't think of a single regime change in my life that has resulted in anything being better as opposed to being worse.

GUTFELD: What about the Nazis?

JOHNSON: Well, that wasn't in my lifetime.


JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Governor, didn't you say ISIS is cook and contained ...

JOHNSON: They are. Well they ...

WILLIAMS: ... the military by 20 percent?

JOHNSON: The BRAC commission itself says ...

WILLIAMS: Well, so I'm just saying, you responded to Greg by saying, oh we need a stronger military. I don't think the military ...

JOHNSON: By stronger military, we need a strong national defense.


JOHNSON: Make no bones about it.

WILLIAMS: Right. But if you mean -- you know, that the people who believe that would say cut the military 20 percent, Governor have did it.

JOHNSON: Well, that's BRAC itself. That's the Pentagon appointing the BRAC commission, and the BRAC commission recommending that US bases could be cut by 20 percent. And that hasn't happened. Well, that's term limits and that's congressmen and women protecting their own turf, their own states, which I get that also. But, look, budget. We need to balance the Federal budget. I think we are headed to a fiscal cliff unless we address our spending. And of course, at the heart of that is the entitlements, Medicaid and medicare. And it's also social security. Am I being too serious? Is this treat and lighten up a little bit?


GUTFELD: No. Yeah.



PERINO: No. ISIS is a serious.

JOHNSON: Yeah, it is. It's very serious and people want to know that we are addressing ISIS. These inspired terrorist attacks coming from my -- this is something -- that's the word there, inspired. They're not directly being -- they're not coming off the battlefield and going into war against the United States but, yes, we should have vigilance to all of this. And you said there are -- there are going to be an attack in the next ten years? I think for the last ten years we've been talking about the fact that there is going to be an attack and ...

PERINO: Can I ask you then about the ideological threat? Because I think that you would agree that we are fighting an ideology. So one of the things that's difficult is then how do you actually fight and win against an ideology where they want to destroy our way of life and western civilization? You have idea on that?

JOHNSON: No. Well, you hit it on the head and OK. So we wipe out ISIS. Well, we wipe out ISIS. We're going to create a void that ISIS came out of the voice of Al Qaeda, regime change in Iraq, regime change in Libya, Syria. Look, we went in -- this was not intentional, but Obama and Clinton go in. And we support the opposition. What was the opposition in Syria? The free Syrian army, this mythical army that was going to oppose both ISIS and Assad, and we arm them. And in fact, they get beaten and the arms end up in ISIS' hands. Well, this is what happens when we support regime change.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: And so it's better to stand by and do nothing when you see ISIS having the cub of caliphate that they are burning people alive, that they are ...

JOHNSON: Well, this is

GUILFOYLE: ... committing acts of crucifixion against children? I mean ...

JOHNSON: ... as bad as it is. And this is, you know, we hear about this horrible situation and then politicians are thrust into, what are you going to do about it? And politicians rather than go, well gee, as bad as it is, are we going to make it any better? Well, probably not. But nobody admits that. We get involved.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. I think it's very inconsistent with an American position of stepping in when we give humanitarian aid. Is it not the same thing to say, listen, I'm not going to stand by. I'll help if a child is starving for food but I won't if it's being executed or crucified. I mean ...

JOHNSON: But the child is executed and crucified by the group that we're opposing. We go in, oppose the group, we wipe out the group, along comes a new group and the atrocity is children being killed are the same or worse.

GUTFELD: But that argument could be applied to any kind of evil. Because there will always be a new evil.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: So you have -- It's like -- you're a pacifist.


JOHNSON: No. No. I reject the fact that Libertarians as isolation, were none interventionist. Look, when it comes to Syrian, solution to Syria is getting involved with Russia. If we don't align ourselves diplomatically with Russia to solve this it's not going to get solved.

ERIC BOLLING, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: So I'm sitting here because I agree with a lot of things you're saying. It's fairly radical. It's a Libertarian stance. And I get that. Can I save my question for the next block? Because Governor staying with us.


BOLLING: And it's not about ISIS. It's about some of the other issues that I think makes me a little nervous. I like you. You're a great guy but there's something that scares me about it.


WILLIAMS: But let me get say -- but hang on. Let me say that you said go -- yes to what Greg said but you disagree with Greg.

GUTFELD: Juan, calling you on it. All right, we've got so much more with Governor Gary.

All right, Donald Trump says he's not going soft on immigration, despite media reports that say, otherwise. Governor Johnson is pulling very well on Hispanics. His take, next.


PERINO: Welcome back to "The Five." We have Libertarian Candidate Gary Johnson is still with us. Eric saved his question for this block. So we'll go to you first.

BOLLING: So Governor, I like trying to embrace Libertarian thing, I'm doing my best. I'm a baby Libertarian.

JOHNSON: That's why I'm going to ask ...

BOLLING: But listen, you said something the other day that really just kind of rocked my brain a little bit. You said -- you praised black lives matter.


BOLLING: And you also pushed back rather aggressively on the phrase "All Lives Matter." Why?

JOHNSON: No. Not a pushback. But all lives do matter. But when it comes to whites, guess what? We're not being shot at the rate of six times blacks are being shot at. When it comes to the war on drugs, if you are of color there's a four times more likelihood that you'll end up behind bars as opposed to being of color. So it's real. And Eric, what I hope I said was, look, I've had my head in the sand over this. I'd like everybody out there to watch that documentary on OJ Simpson. And take a look at what transpired to the OJ Simpson trial.

BOLLING: Yeah. Can I just clarify that ...

JOHNSON: Sure. Sure.

BOLLING: Yeah, blacks are being shot six times more often than whites?


BOLLING: But they're committing eight times the amount of crime than whites.

JOHNSON: Well, but back to this crime thing -- Juan, you want to chime in?

WILLIAMS: Yeah. I don't know. I don't ...


WILLIAMS: I'm here everyday.

JOHNSON: Well, wait a minute. You're on numbers, blacks being treated more fairly than whites under those numbers.



JOHNSON: But now I'm back -- well, the war on drugs. The war on drugs that unfairly, blacks are targeted, color is targeted as opposed to you being white. And I am talking now about the war on drugs, the fact that we have the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world. I think that's because of the war on drugs. And I refuse to believe that we are any less law-abiding in this country than other countries. So mandatory sentencing, we got a lot of nonviolent victimless -- victimless crime people behind bars, mandatory minimums.

GUTFELD: I mean I agree with you and would like to get those people out so you can put more violent criminals in.

JOHNSON: Yeah, makes sense.

GUTFELD: I want more people in prison, though. I do.

JOHNSON: For other for ...

GUTFELD: For other reasons.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Yeah.

GUTFELD: But you're for private prisons, aren't you?

JOHNSON: Well, by for private prisons, when it comes to government. Look, if government can provide the same goods and same services for less money that's good government. Same goods, same services for less money, that's really good government. So looking at privatizing government -- government services if you can provide those services better or the same for less money, good government.

WILLIAMS: So you get 16 percent, I read here, from Latinos in terms of support, right? That's pretty good. And you support immigration reform that's opposed by the Republican Nominee, Donald Trump. What's the big difference between you and Trump on immigration?

JOHNSON: Well, Anything. The fact that he wants to deport 11 million ...

GUTFELD: Not anymore.

JOHNSON: 11 documented -- undocumented workers. That has a basis in complete misunderstanding of the issue.

PERINO: What about Mexico as a border state? Would you support the wall he says he wants to build?

JOHNSON: Absolutely not. That's just crazy. And you know, he was watching the Olympics really closely to see how high the Mexican pole vaulters could go.

BOLLING: What do you have against the wall? I mean, you're a Libertarian, right you? Want to closed borders, right?

JOHNSON: Close borders? I want to make it as easy as possible for somebody that wants to come into this country and work, to be able to get a work and visa.

BOLLING: So no border then?

JOHNSON: No. No, keep the control the way it is at the border. The reason that there are 11 million undocumented workers is the jobs exist, but they can't get across the border legally. So they cross illegally, just like any one of us would do if our families depended on being able to have a job and, you know ...

PERINO: KG, you want to say something?

GUILFOYLE: No, I'm fine. Thanks.

PERINO: All right. We'll so away, because we've been a lot more to ask Governor Johnson. The First Presidential Debate is just over on month away what his plan to get on that stage. We have that next. Stay tune.


WILLIAMS: Back now with Libertarian Presidential Nominee, Gary Johnson. I think a lot of Republicans who can't quite deal with Donald Trump -- maybe I would vote if can't vote for Hillary Clinton, but maybe I would vote for Gary Johnson. And so, how you do react to that?

JOHNSON: Well, it's a pitch to both sides, Democrats and Republicans both being physically conservative, socially inclusive, talking about our military interventions, regime change. I think that what I just described encompasses about 60 percent of the electorate. And I'm a Former Governor of New Mexico, my running mate, Bill Weld. The Two Former Republican Governors serving and heavily Democrats state getting re-elected.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean it sounds good but on the other hand ...

JOHNSON: Six lanes highways on ...

WILLIAMS: ... on the other, we are talking and I could see my paw, Kimberly Guilfoyle, oh men, I just can -- I can buy -- because, look, you support abortion, right? You're for marijuana, right? You know, I mean ...

JOHNSON: Supporting a woman's right to choose. Always ...

WILLIAMS: No, I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it.

JOHNSON: ... liberty and freedom.

WILLIAMS: Governor, I'm fine. I'm just telling you what my friend ...

GUILFOYLE: OK. I like the small government -- limited government and sitting down excessive wasteful spending but let's just talk, you know, the bigger picture in terms of the election -- general election. What do you say to those? They say that they consider you a spoiler as a third party candidate. If you're not able to get on the debate, what are some of your thoughts about that?

JOHNSON: I think as this gets closer to the election wasting your vote is a topic that you'll have to address when it comes to Clinton or Trump? When you could vote for Johnson, why are you wasting your vote on one of those two?

WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, OK. So, let's talk about the polls. Greg, do you think he can get 15 percent to get in the debate?

GUTFELD: I have no idea. I would say, if you have 50 percent chance.

JOHNSON: But here is the issue when it comes to polls is and you all report it every day is that top line is Trump and Clinton. That's the top line. And 99 percent of the media reports on the top line. Well, you go down two lines when they add Johnson right now. That's a 10 percent consensus number. And by the way that's doubled like in the last seven weeks. So we got a lot a momentum going into this. And we're raising significant amount of money. So I think it was better than 50 percent chance that I'm going to be that third ...

WILLIAMS: You're a mind reader, Greg.

GUTFELD: A mind reader. I often that earlier.

WILLIAMS: I know. You have to ask Bolling.

JOHNSON: And that tall order.

BOLLING: And the good luck. But that's the tall order.

So you see a lot of polls, when they poll Johnson-Stein out.

WILLIAMS: Jill Stein. Jill Stein, the Green Party?

BOLLING: That's the Green Party Candidate.

Trump does worse. So you're actually from pulling from Hillary Clinton more than you are from Trump, oddly enough.

JOHNSON: Yeah. No, that's the way that it comes down. When it -- at the end of the day, I think it will be equally from both sides. But, look, wasting your vote. That's what I get so often. Wasting your vote is voting for somebody you don't believe in. That's wasting your votes.

WILLIAMS: All right. We should know here that "The Five" actually invited Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate to come out. So that invitation stands but not there. And that's a very important point because you have five polls now, the presidential debate commission says, five official polls.

JOHNSON: Yes. Yes, right.

WILLIAMS: That they will use to judge. And all five polls will include not only your name but Jill Stein.


WILLIAMS: And that when you do that, it means you get about nine, she gets about four.

JOHNSON: Well, those five polls right now have -- my average on that is 10. And Bill Weld, and myself will going to be the only third party on the ballot in all 50 states. Jill Stein has the potential of getting 230 electoral votes being on the ballot in about 36 states. But we will on the ballot in all 50 states. And I think there's a justification for having our name as the third name on the top line.

WILLIAMS: Oh, so you're saying to "The Five" audience Jill Stein is not legit because she's not on all the ballots, but Gary Johnson?

JOHNSON: No. I didn't say that at all. I didn't say that at all.

PERINO: No, he didn't. He said that he could get there. Can I ask you a quick question?


PERINO: When did you -- this goes about your conversion, you were a Republican Governor elected twice, when did you convert to Libertarian?

JOHNSON: Well ...

PERINO: And why?

JOHNSON: I self identified as a Libertarian since '71 when the Libertarian Party was established. I mean, I always felt that this overarching small government, I've always been about small government. My first vote for a Libertarian for president was Berglund, begins Ronald Reagan, the second term because Reagan blow the lead off of deficits. I mean, you just suppose to be small government guy and boom here's all the spending.

GUTFELD: You're like it -- are you the number one choose among military? I a saw (inaudible).



JOHNSON: Which I thought was terrific. I mean, among active military personnel right now, I'm leaving the pack, which I think speaks volumes to J, what does that mean? Well, judicious use of the military, perhaps attack when attacked, perhaps as suppose to being the world's police.

WILLIAMS: All right, well.

JOHNSON: What do you think?

GUTFELD: How do you read that part of it?

WILLIAMS: Before any kind of party breaks out here. I don't know what would happen. Special thanks to Governor Johnson for joining us.

JOHNSON: Oh, thank you all.

WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, really. Best of luck to you. One more thing, that's up next. Stay with us.


BOLLING: Time for One More Thing, KG?

GUILFOYLE: I mean it's a good day for Kentucky fried chicken, isn't it?


GUILFOYLE: Kimberly's Food Court.

All right, guys. You probably lay awake at night wondering what is exactly in this delicious KFC special recipe. Where are you? Yeah.


GUILFOYLE: Delicious fried chicken. So, the Chicago tribune is reporting that it may have uncovered the Colonel Sanders' secret recipe, Greg, OK.

And in fact, they say some of the things in the 11 herbs and spices ...


GUILFOYLE: ... salt. We kind of knew that one. Thyme, basil, oregano, celery salt, black pepper, dried mustard, paprika, garlic salt, ground ginger, and white pepper. What can you think about that? Can you replicate this at home and if not you can cheer some of my ...

PERINO: I feel like they should not have released it.

GUILFOYLE: It's that, right?


GUILFOYLE: Juan, fried chicken?

WILLIAMS: Not at the moment. But I --the problem is I though this weekend, I saw that there is now like flavored suntan lotions.

PERINO: That's true.

WILLIAMS: And they had lipstick.

GUILFOYLE: Oh well, there is like - yeah.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, fingernail polish.


BOLLING: We have to move on.

Very quickly, go to Have a piece of today. Just up now in last couple of hours on will Hillary release some of the Clinton foundation billions to help the people of Louisiana? I mentioned it yesterday. Got a lot of Twitter response on that both sides. So would love you to read it and give me some thoughts on Twitter. I'll be up on Twitter.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Do you want some chicken?

BOLLING: Now, Greg?

GUTFELD: Yes. I also have a piece.


GUTFELD: Where is it? I have called, are you a troll? Written from a troll's perspective. It's on It's going to be right there next to Eric's. And test to find if your troll. But that's a very interesting tape. I don't know if you're aware of this but Eric Bolling's book "Wake up America" open with released in Taiwan. And there is tape of the people rushing to get the book. This is amazing. They're running through the crowds.


GUTFELD: It's amazing. They had to air lift the books in.

BOLLING: You know what that really is, right?

GUTFELD: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: Pokemon Go.

GUTFELD: Yes, Pokemon Go.

WILLIAMS: Oh, my gosh.

GUILFOYLE: But it looks like a stampede.

GUTFELD: Yeah, it's a stampede to the book.


GUILFOYLE: Get your chicken. Bolling, you're a vegetarian, right? Or something ...

BOLLING: No, I eat chicken. All right Dana?

PERINO: We're going to eat later. OK. So, you know, you've been with me on this journey as Peter McMahon, my husband, has been trying to get his pilot's license, OK, so his been doing all these diligent work. And today he took his test.

WILLIAMS: Oh, wow.

PERINO: Got signed of.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, Peter.

PERINO: So Peter man, pictured there with me in South Carolina. He is now a pilot, officially.

WILLIAMS: Oh, congrats.

PERINO: He grew up on Royal Air Force Base. His dad was an air traffic controller. This is the lifelong dream of his. So it's really fan to see someone you love achieved a goal like that.

WILLIAMS: Wow that ...

PERINO: Congratulations Peter.

BOLLING: And why did he become a pilot?

GUILFOYLE: So, who is the co-pilot? Jasper?

PERINO: So he could fly Jasper to South Carolina.

GUILFOYLE: There you go. What better reason?


GUILFOYLE: Jasper to co-pilot?

BOLLING: Dana, let him get a little practice before he fly.

PERINO: Oh no. I'm going tomorrow.

WILLIAMS: OK. So, over the weekend, there was a big international incident at our northern border. But it got so little attention I thought I should mention it. The wind was blowing and took 1500 rafters across the US Canadian border on the St. Clair River. The police -- the Canadian coast guard got involved with this flotilla of illegal immigrants. Luckily Donald Trump wasn't on duty so the Canadian simply got a bus -- 19 buses and took all 1500 back to the (inaudible) on the American side.

You see, Eric? Who is right in the middle right there?

WILLIAMS: Is that you?

BOLLING: Gary Johnson.

WILLIAMS: Was that smoking kind of thing?

BOLLING: DVR that whole thing.

PERINO: "The Five" and stuff like that.


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