Megyn Kelly challenges former Black Panther leader
Malik Shabazz explains comments on police shootings, possibility of riots at Republican National Convention
This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," July 18, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, we are live in Cleveland as the Republican National Convention gets under way and America faces new fear about a growing racial tension that has boiled over into the deadly targeting of men in blue.
Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. High above the Quicken Loans Arena for day one of the RNC here in Cleveland, Ohio. The focus of this day is security. The theme, Make America Safe Again. Throughout the hour, we'll be bringing you key moments of the speeches as this convention comes at a particularly troubling time in America's history. It all starts almost two week ago with the police-involved shooting death of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
The very next day, another black man, Philando Castile, was shot to death by police during a traffic stop in Minnesota. The aftermath of that shooting broadcast live online. Outraged protesters would take to the streets across America to call for police reform. President Obama would respond and say the situation is one all Americans should care about. But hours later as protesters marched through the streets of Dallas, the very men and women who were protecting the protesters became targets of a madman. Five officers were killed.
Nine others injured in the deadliest attack on law enforcement since 9/11. President Obama attended a memorial for the slain officers, insisting America is not as divided as we seem, but any hope of unity was short lived when another madman ambushed police yesterday in the place it all began, Baton Rouge. Three officers were assassinated on the job. Several more were injured. This convention here opened with remarks about Baton Rouge, and it will play large on the main stage tonight, including speeches this hour by Milwaukee Sheriff David Clarke, which we'll bring to you, and former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
But Trace Gallagher starts us off with the murders that have quickly become the hottest political issue in the country and that Donald Trump will be addressing later this week. Trace.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And, Megyn, police know exactly how the latest shooting transpired because they have the pictures. Much of the ambush was captured on surveillance cameras. Authorities say the killer, a former sergeant in the marines, traveled from his home in Kansas City to Baton Rouge just to carry out these attacks. They believe he spent days surveilling police headquarters, planning his assault. Then early Sunday morning, lured police to a shopping center where he used a rifle to open fire, unloading 25 to 30 shots, killing officers Matthew Gerald, Montrell Jackson, and Deputy Brad Garafola.
People say the killer was affiliated with an anti-government group and posted social media messages complaining about police treatment of African- Americans. President Obama condemned the killings and then called on politicians to cool the, quote, "inflammatory rhetoric." If that request was aimed at Donald Trump, it did not work. Trump, who calls himself the law and order candidate, accused the president of lacking leadership and said that something is going on. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I watched the President. That sometimes the words are okay, but you just look at the body language. There's something going on. Look, there's something going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: Several police unions believe President Obama is making things worse by validating what they call the false narrative of the anti-cop sentiment. The New York Times recently wrote that when it comes to race and policing, the President is conflicted, quoting, Mr. Obama has sought to use the authority of his office to amplify and support the emerging Black Lives Matter movement while struggling not to become an unwitting megaphone for anti-police sentiment. Police unions are now pushing for Hillary Clinton to denounce the Black Lives Matter movement. Today Clinton called for condemning cop killers and also changing police departments. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: That means investing in our police, in training on the proper use of force, especially lethal force. How to avoid using force to resolve incidents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: Clinton says now the country needs her experience. Trump says the country does not need her bad judgment -- Megyn.
KELLY: Trace, thank you.
Well, my next guest says he doubts we'll make it through this convention in Cleveland without violence in the streets. He also says he understands why the gunman who killed the police officers in Dallas is being described as, quote, "a hero" by some folks.
Malik Shabazz is president of Black Lawyers for Justice and former president of the New Black Panthers Group. Thank you, Malik, for being here.
MALIK SHABAZZ, NATIONAL PRESIDENT, BLACK LAWYERS FOR JUSTICE: You're welcome.
KELLY: What do you mean by that? You can understand how some people are hailing this cop killer as a hero?
SHABAZZ: I don't know if I said that, but what I can --
KELLY: You did. You said it to our FOX News reporter Mike Tobin yesterday because the people in the audience behind you were chanting hero, hero about him.
SHABAZZ: Excuse me. I did not say that --
KELLY: And you said, I can understand --
SHABAZZ: Excuse me. I did not say that but I can tell you that the --
KELLY: You did. We can run the tape.
SHABAZZ: Let's talk about the pain and the suffering of black people who are killed by police officers on a regular basis without due process, serving as judge, jury and executioner on a regular basis. Our blood is being spilled in the streets. The blood of Alton Sterling, the blood of Philando Castile, let's take it back to Mike Brown --
KELLY: Michael Brown was the aggressor on the police officer.
SHABAZZ: No, he was not. That was your version.
KELLY: No, it wasn't. It was Eric Holder's Department of Justice --
SHABAZZ: Department of Justice has failed us as well. Our blood is --
KELLY: What facts do you have that Michael --
SHABAZZ: Our blood is --
KELLY: So, we're going to have it back and forth --
SHABAZZ: Okay. Our blood is in the streets.
KELLY: What facts do you have that Michael Brown was not the aggressor, that Officer Darren Wilson was the aggressor?
SHABAZZ: Because I've lived in St. Louis, and I talked to some of the witnesses, and I know that in America, unless you have a videotape, then the word of the officers prevails.
KELLY: Do you understand that at least five Black witnesses came forward in that case to say that Michael Brown was the aggressor?
SHABAZZ: Michael Brown was an unarmed, and Michael Brown --
KELLY: He was unarmed until he tried to steal the cop's gun.
SHABAZZ: And your attitude is part of the problem. Your attitude --
KELLY: I have no attitude other than to uphold the truth.
SHABAZZ: No. No. That basic position of what we call white supremacy, white privilege, is believing that an unarmed black man, all of us unarmed, being killed by armed police officers somehow it's our fault. But we don't see white males in America --
KELLY: For the record, I'm not a white supremacist.
SHABAZZ: No. It's a position. The position that you believe that your lives are better than ours.
KELLY: Well, I believe that you are the one who has made the racially insensitive statements.
SHABAZZ: No, no. It's a racially insensitive country.
KELLY: Time and time again. That's why it's hard to take you seriously when you try to speak out about police and issues of race.
SHABAZZ: Take me -- take me very seriously. As these police departments are choking out black men such as Darius Robinson in Oklahoma, choking the life out of us. We can't even make it to trial and get a decent trial with due process without the police of America killing us outright. And that's why everybody is upset.
KELLY: Why can't we agree that there are some cop shootings that are bad and there of course are some cops that are racist?
SHABAZZ: Okay. Got that.
KELLY: Right. Of course. But by the same token, some of these shootings are okay.
SHABAZZ: Which one? Which shooting is okay?
KELLY: To the extent -- listen, and what I mean by okay is within the confines of policy and the law. In other words, the defendant was attacking the cop as we saw in the Michael Brown case.
SHABAZZ: No, no. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that.
KELLY: So there's no -- there's no reasoning with you.
SHABAZZ: No, no.
KELLY: Can't you understand that the cops feel like targets now just for doing their job?
SHABAZZ: I'm not going to blame Mike Brown for that. The Police Departments in America have -- no one has constrained them. No one has brought them under control. This type of attitude --
KELLY: President Obama's DOJ has 26 investigations into them. He is --
SHABAZZ: No, he has not. The Department of Justice has failed us. The prosecutors in America such as St. Louis County have failed us. And this campaign here is creating an atmosphere where more police brutality is expected in America.
KELLY: More police brutality?
SHABAZZ: More police brutality is expected due to this type of campaign, which promotes racism and division. It's going to create more police who desire to kill us.
KELLY: Do you believe that white people are inherently evil?
SHABAZZ: I believe that the actions that they show through using excessive force, through violating the constitution, through killing us, show that our lives -- show that our lives --
KELLY: Do you use the term cracker to refer to white people?
SHABAZZ: No, no, excuse me. You want to disrupt you, want to deviate from the --
KELLY: No. I want the audience to know what you stand for.
SHABAZZ: I want to tell you what I stand for.
KELLY: Do you use the term cracker to refer to white people?
SHABAZZ: Do you want to let me talk?
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: Go ahead and answer.
SHABAZZ: Okay. But your first question was, do I believe you are inherently evil. I believe that your policies and your actions are evil, and they result in us being killed when in the same circumstance --
KELLY: I got that. I got that. What about cracker? Do you refer to white people as cracker?
SHABAZZ: Do I refer to white people as cracker?
KELLY: Yes.
SHABAZZ: I have in my anger, as many people in their anger have referred to others as derogatory names.
KELLY: I don't think that's a common term.
SHABAZZ: Okay.
KELLY: Did you say that we should kill every g-damn Zionist in Israel?
SHABAZZ: No, I never say it.
KELLY: Never said that. Their g-damn little babies. That old ladies should be blown up?
SHABAZZ: We're going to leave the strip and acknowledge the death of Sandra Bland --
KELLY: Okay.
SHABAZZ: Freddie Gray, Mike Brown.
KELLY: Freddie Gray, four acquittals in that case. Four acquittals of those officers.
SHABAZZ: Bad prosecution.
KELLY: Bad prosecution.
SHABAZZ: Darius Stewart --
KELLY: African-American judge.
SHABAZZ: Darius Robinson.
KELLY: African-American prosecutor.
SHABAZZ: Eric Garner, Alton Sterling, Philando Castile.
KELLY: I'm granting that there's some bad police shootings.
SHABAZZ: No, worse than bad police shootings. It's a bad system, and the country is going totally in the wrong direction. And until we get justice, there's not going to be no peace.
KELLY: I got it.
SHABAZZ: And until the court system works, there can't be no peace. And until we get reparation and compensation for all the blood --
KELLY: Reparation?
SHABAZZ: -- that you're spilling of our blood, then, Miss Kelly, there cannot be peace. There cannot be peace. It's the white power structure and you're part of that. You're an important voice.
KELLY: Okay.
SHABAZZ: If you would stop being so hostile to our position.
KELLY: I'm not hostile to anything.
SHABAZZ: You do recognize that Black Lives Matter.
KELLY: We have a lot of folks, Black Lives Matter in this program. But they don't always take antagonistic positions when it comes to white people as a group. I have to go because I have my next guest --
SHABAZZ: Do you believe -- do you believe that Black Lives Matter?
KELLY: I got to go because I have my next --
SHABAZZ: There it is.
KELLY: Thank you for being here.
Well, our next guest represents the men and women keeping folks safe in this very city as the convention plays out. And he says not only does President Obama seem to have his finger on the scale on this debate over cops in America. He says the commander-in-chief has the blood of these fallen officers on his hands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. STEVE LOOMIS, PRESIDENT, CLEVELAND POLICE PATROLMEN'S ASSOCIATION: We have a president of the United States and a governor of Minnesota making the statements that they made less than one day after those police-involved shootings, and those police-involved shootings, make no mistake, are what absolutely has triggered this rash of senseless murders of law enforcement officers across this country. It is reprehensible, and the president of the United States has blood on his hands and it will not be able to become washed off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Detective Steve Loomis is president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association and with me now. Detective, thank you for being here.
LOOMIS: Thank you for having me.
KELLY: So he's got blood on his hands for the death of the --
LOOMIS: Absolutely, absolutely. But you know, Megyn --
KELLY: How do you pin that on Black Lives Matter or on President Obama?
LOOMIS: We're used to activists. We're used to an anarchists. We're used to militant people that want to blame everybody for their problems other than themselves. And we're used to that kind of rhetoric. What happens when the president of the United States, when athletes, when actors, when they use their fame to approve of the false narrative that's out there from Black Lives Matter and from the new Black Panthers --
KELLY: The President defends cops in every remark -- in every speech he makes and then he says but we also must acknowledge. I mean Malik Shabazz obviously is a race hater who has spent a life condemning Jews, condemning whites, and what have you. But that doesn't mean that all these cop shootings are good shootings, if you will, good in the terms of policy and within policy.
LOOMIS: Sure. And if they're not, the officers are prosecuted and they're convicted. We are a land of laws.
KELLY: In the vast majority of cases, the cops are acquitted.
LOOMIS: Absolutely.
KELLY: And many people believe that system is rigged in their favor, that you can't get a conviction of a cop.
LOOMIS: You know, what are we going to do with people that believe that? You know, you're telling me that the black judges, the black prosecutors are all corrupt and they're all just trying to get the cops out of trouble. It's a ridiculous notion, and it's one that will have to change if we're going to move forward.
KELLY: What about the fact that blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers compared to their population size to whites in this country?
LOOMIS: Well, we're called into the African-American neighborhoods. Blacks are victimized by other black people as well in disproportionate numbers from other people and other races across this country. We're called into these neighborhoods, Megyn. In -- I'm sorry -- Baton Rouge, Louisiana, those officers were called. There was a black man that called and said, hey, that black guy over there is pointing a gun at me. Those officers responded to that. They didn't go there. President Obama had that guy --
KELLY: When people see Alton Sterling standing out in front of this store taken down and shot on video and we're not law enforcement, but you know the reaction that people have to this, which is it doesn't look like he deserved to lose his life. I didn't see a gun. If the gun was in his pocket, why? Are the police trigger happy when it comes to African- Americans as people like Malik --
LOOMIS: Listen, that's a ridiculous notion. I've been a police officer for 24 years. I've answered thousands of radio calls, people that need help and not one time did I get on the radio and say, hey, what color is the family?
KELLY: But that's you. Right? I mean, they're positing there's an inherent bias against blacks by cops even if the cops themselves are blacks.
LOOMIS: It's an excuse for the failures that certain leaders in the African-American community have. How are we ignoring the fact that over 500 homicides in the city of Chicago. In the city of Cleveland, we had 132 homicides last year, and if you take the black suspects that killed black people out of that equation -- and I'm talking about a two-year-old baby, I'm talking about a six-year-old baby, a 72-year-old grandmother sitting on the front porch. If you take them out of that equation, the city of Cleveland would have had 29 homicides last year. I'm not calling anybody names. I'm saying there's a problem here. We need to look at it.
We need to address it as a thoughtful community, and not spread the venom. And when the president of the United States and athletes and everybody else buy into this false narrative of Black Lives Matter, the new Black Panther Movement, Al Sharpton, when was the last time that guy got anything right?
KELLY: He's dangerous.
LOOMIS: He's absolutely dangerous, and now police officers are getting killed because of that rhetoric.
KELLY: Detective, thank you for being here.
LOOMIS: Thank you so much for having me.
KELLY: Appreciate it. So there you have that. That was an interesting exchange. We've got a star-studded prime time lineup for you at the RNC. It's just getting under way. We're waiting to hear from Sheriff David Clarke on this very issue you just heard us debating.
Also former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, Donald and Melania Trump and many more when they speak, we'll bring it to you live. Race relations will also be a topic at next week's Democratic National Convention. And on the list of speakers, the mother of Michael Brown, from Missouri, 18-year-old whose death touched off the Black Lives Matter Movement even though the Officer Darren Wilson, was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing. What kind of a message did that send to the voters? We'll have a fair and balanced debate, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: Breaking tonight, the Republican National Convention in Cleveland is under way, and the theme for the RNC today is Make America Safe Again. We are waiting to hear from two men with years of firsthand experience in national security and law enforcement. Former presidential candidate and New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, and Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, Sheriff David Clarke.
When they start speaking, we're going to listen. And we're getting new reaction now to Democrats' plans to address the growing national anxiety of a law enforcement and race relations in America. At the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia next week, Leslie McFadden will be a featured speaker. In the summer of 2014, her son, Michael Brown, was killed by Ferguson, Missouri, Police Officer Darren Wilson. That incident set off violence in Ferguson and fueled the Black Lives Matter Movement.
In the end, Officer Wilson was cleared of any crime. So the question now, given that the DOJ concluded Mike Brown robbed a store and then attempted to kill a police officer, why are the Democrats reaching out to his mother?
Tucker Carlson is editor-in-chief of The Daily Caller and co-host of "Fox & Friends," and Austan Goolsbee, is a former adviser to President Obama. They're with me now. You know, she's got the mother of Trayvon Martin going. That's, I mean, non-controversial invitation, right? There have been plenty of bad police shootings where you could invite the mother of the victim, but Michael Brown is a different case, Austin. Smart move?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, FORMER ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: I don't know. There are two questions. One is the group of mothers, all of whose children were killed by police, they're being invited as a group.
KELLY: But he was killed by a police officer because he attacked the police officer. That's what the DOJ find.
GOOLSBEE: You may be right. I'm not familiar with these DOJ findings.
KELLY: Trust me.
GOOLSBEE: I know he was unarmed.
KELLY: Trust me. He was unarmed until he tried to grab Officer Wilson's gun and shoot him, right?
GOOLSBEE: That may be true.
KELLY: Trust me, it's true.
GOOLSBEE: This group of mothers, this is not a thing that was decided this week. This is a group of mothers that endorsed Hillary Clinton months ago, and they have been traveling as a group, campaigning.
KELLY: So you can't single the one out?
GOOLSBEE: I think it would be a little weird to say we're going to have all of these mothers that have been appearing as they've been going along, but this one is not --
KELLY: Okay. Tucker, what about that?
TUCKER CARLSON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE DAILY CALLER: I don't think it would be weird at all. I mean, they're using the Michael Brown case as a metaphor to explain interactions between the black community and the police. It's completely wrong. It's a form of racial demagoguery. They're saying what happened to Michael Brown could happen to you if you're the wrong skin color. The truth is you just said that according to the Obama Justice Department, this guy tried to grab a cop's gun. And by the way he's a thug and --
KELLY: And there were a bunch of independent witnesses, African-American witnesses, who completely backed up --
CARLSON: It's not a matter of conjecture. We know what happened.
GOOLSBEE: Look, all I would ask you is, is it your view, then, that they should not have any of the mothers?
KELLY: No.
GOOLSBEE: That we shouldn't talk about that, or just that they should identify --
KELLY: There's a reason I focused on Michael Brown with Malik Shabazz, because that death was what started it all with Black Lives Matter. And in part because of the derelict media that jumped to conclusions in the case and put on his friend, Michael Brown's friend, who told a lie about hands up, don't shoot and then he was murdered. And it was a lie, and the media did not shine the same spotlight on that revelation.
GOOLSBEE: I think that's a fair critique of the media though in the Justice Department report, what also came out of that report was that there was deep, ingrained racism in the Ferguson Police Department.
KELLY: Absolutely.
GOOLSBEE: And a lot of really questionable and awful things.
KELLY: Completely right, and people have a right to object to that and to the extent they find that --
GOOLSBEE: So I understand the critique. I still think Hillary Clinton is highlighting an issue about the interactions of race and police and that these are things that we should pay attention to.
KELLY: What about that? Does this hurt her, Tucker, because obviously politically speaking, she has most of the black vote already siding with her.
CARLSON: Yes.
KELLY: And Blacks often vote Democrats. Right? Like a lot of times we --
CARLSON: It's one thing to have someone side with you. It's another thing to have someone vote for you. Scaring people using false racial demagoguery -- she gave a speech to the NAACP in which she said all white people need to apologize for their privilege? Really.
KELLY: Okay. I'm going to stand you by. Look at the extraordinary welcome for Sheriff David Clarke of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. They are on their feet. Let's listen.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY, WISCONSIN: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to make something very clear. Blue lives matter in America.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(CROWD CHANTING "USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!")
I stand before you tonight with a heavy heart as the law enforcement community prepares to bury of three of Baton Rouge, Louisiana's finest. But there is some good news out of Baltimore, Maryland, as Lieutenant Brian Rice was acquitted on all charges.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
And the malicious prosecution of activist State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby. Now, I want to talk to you about something important. Indeed, a concept that five law enforcement officers were murdered and nine more were wounded for earlier this month and for which three more were murdered two days ago in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And that is the importance of Making America Safe Again.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
You see, I believe that this noble mission is not just a requirement but a pre-requisite for achieving this campaign's goal of Making America Great Again.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
We simply cannot be great if we do not feel safe in our homes, on our streets, and in our schools. I see this every day at street level where many Americans increasingly have an uneasiness about the ability of their families to live safely in these troubling times. This transcends race, religion, ethnicity, gender, age, and lifestyle.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
And if you don't believe it, a recent Gallup poll confirms it. And more than half of all Americans now worry a great deal about crime and violence, up consistently and dramatically from just a few years ago. And for African-Americans, that number is 70 percent. Sadly, for a growing number of communities, the sense of safety that many of us once took for granted has been shattered. Americans don't always feel safe no matter if they're working in a big city, living in a suburb or rural areas all around this great country. I often tell residents of Milwaukee and the city and towns that I visit that safety is a shared endeavor.
It starts with the willing acceptance of people to play by society's rules, a code. A code, if you will, where we collectively agree upon that ensures stability, fairness, and respect. It is built on a foundation of trust in each other and in the people who administer and enforce society's rules, which at its foundation is the rule of law.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
In 1963, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote passionately about the interrelatedness of all communities and states and about our inescapable network of mutuality tying us in a single garment of destiny. He spoke of the basic morality of the rule of law provided it is applied equally to both the wealthy and the impoverished, both men and women, and, yes, the majority and the minority. What we witnessed in Ferguson and Baltimore and Baton Rouge was the collapse of the social order. So many of the actions of the occupying movement and Black Lives Matter transcends peaceful protests and violates the code of conduct we really on, I call it anarchy.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
You see, American law enforcement officers understand that race is and has been a heated issue in our country. Most appreciate the vital need for thoroughness and transparency and pursuit of the greater good in their actions and in their investigations. These are truths that are self- evident to me and which I practice, and they are the truths that Donald Trump understands and supports!
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
Donald Trump is the steadfast leader our nation needs. He has spoken passionately to me of his belief in our American system of justice, and he speaks to the values that are foundation of social contract.
(AUDIO GAP)
CLARKE: . his voice not only in defense of the character of the American police officer, but the need for all people to feel that they are being treated fairly and respectfully by law enforcement.
(APPLAUSE)
CLARKE: You see, Donald Trump understands that what can make our nation safe again is a recommitment to a system of justice in which no government official, not even those who have fought their way to the marble and granite halls of Washington, no private citizen, no elected official, even Hillary Clinton, and no group of people despite the fervor with which they press forward their grievances can claim privilege above the law. It cannot happen in the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
CLARKE: The tradition of the primacy of the rule of law in America is strong. It is in those simple facts, and in our acts, we will move forward toward making America safe again. God bless you, and may God continue to bless these United States of America.
(APPLAUSE)
KELLY: Sheriff David Clarke, bringing the crowd to its feet, talking about the battles that law enforcement faces in this country today. I want to get a word back with our panel again now, Austan Goolsbee and Tucker Carlson. So, politically, we were saying, how does this play out? Because Donald Trump is telling everyone, that he's the law-and-order candidate. Tucker, you were saying before the break.
CARLSON: Well, let me just say, I don't think there's anybody the left dislikes more than Sheriff David Clarke, because what do you say to Sheriff David Clarke? He makes a really good point. Police are being murdered and it's not just an attack on the police but against our civilization, the rule of law.
KELLY: The social contract, as he put it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The left is taking sides, in effect, with people who threaten it. And Clarke calls them out on that and so does Trump. Look, that is really the choice. Which side are you on? That's true.
GOOLSBEE: I would say a couple of things. The first is I disagree with the Trump endorsement, but there were a lot of things that Sheriff Clarke said that were pretty powerful, that I think most Americans would agree with, about we got to play by the rules, we must respect the rule of law. Now, I would argue that Donald Trump is not a rule of law candidate. You've seen the rule of law, traditional rule of law Republicans.
KELLY: Is Hillary?
(CROSSTALK)
GOOLSBEE: Reject Donald Trump quite significantly.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: Only one of them was under threat of indictment by the FBI.
(LAUGHTER)
GOOLSBEE: Well, not true. Only one of them has had consent decrees signed with the Department of Justice, the SEC, and others. I think Donald Trump's own personal behavior as a businessman, but also the positions that he espouses are not traditional rule of law conservative positions. The rule of law wing of the conservative party is not happy that Donald Trump is the nominee, and most of them are not at this convention. And I think that's not by coincidence.
KELLY: Great to see you. Thank you so much for being here. We're going to have much more of the Republican National Convention in Cleveland straight ahead, including the first appearance by Donald Trump, as he seeks to secure his party's nomination for president.
Plus, two of the men almost killed trying to protect the consulate in Benghazi spoke a short while ago and brought down the house. We'll show you why in moments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: Breaking tonight, we are moments away from Donald Trump's first appearance at the Republican National Convention. Mr. Trump will not be giving a big speech tonight. Instead, we're told he will be introducing his wife, Melania Trump. We expect Melania to speak for a few minutes before Trump joins her onstage again. When Donald walks on stage, we will listen and will also listen when Mayor Rudy Giuliani speaks moments from now.
Throughout this hour, we have been discussing the focus of tonight's convention program which is Make America Safe Again. A short time ago, we heard from a couple of folk who's had loved ones killed by illegal immigrants. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son's life was stolen at the hands of an illegal alien. It's time that we have an administration that cares more about Americans than about illegals. A vote for Hillary is putting all of our children's lives at risk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been talking about illegal immigration since 2012, since he got killed, and no one listened until Donald Trump.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hillary Clinton, or as we know her, Crooked Hillary, always talks about what she will do for illegal aliens and what she will do for refugees. Well, Donald Trump talks about what he will do for America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: For more on this, I'm joined by Juan Hernandez, a Latino Trump supporter, Jose Antonio Vargas, who is founder of Define American, and Laura Wilkerson, whose son, Josh, was killed by an illegal alien. Thank you all for being here. Let me start with you, Laura, because you're in this arena where I think most of the folks here may see the issue as you do. You know, you want a harder stance on illegal immigration. And you're sitting next to Jose, who is himself an admitted undocumented immigrant. I mean, is it hard to look at him and say, I want you kicked out? You know, I want the Trump plan that would lead to you being removed?
LAURA WILKERSON, SON KILLED BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT: I think if you're not a United States' citizen, you don't have a seat at the table regardless, especially where you're making laws. You just don't have a seat at the table. You know, we have to remember families like my own. And I first want to thank Maria Espinoza of the Remembrance Project, who created a national foundation. And Donald Trump said he would implement that for our families. There's nothing to help the families who are devastated like our families are.
KELLY: So, what do you make of that? You hear the stories like Laura's where her son, Josh, was killed and you can understand the fire over it?
JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS, DEFINE AMERICAN FOUNDER: Of course. I'm really sorry about that. You're right, by the way. I don't have a seat at the table. We're at the mercy of Congress people, Congress members who haven't done anything. What's really interesting listening to all of this, we haven't even talked about the President Obama has deported more than 2 million immigrants in the past seven years. That's more than any other president in modern history. I have no say over what's going to happen to me. Right now, the Republican platform says get rid of all of us.
(CROSSTALK)
WILKERSON: It's not up to Congress to do something. It's up to you to get in line and become an American citizen. It's not up to them to solve any problems. There is a law. It needs to be enforced. Close the borders. Enforce current laws and, you know, welcome to America if you come in the front door.
VARGAS: Actually, ma'am, there is no line for me to get in the back of. That's why we need for something to happen. I'll be here 23 years next month. There's no process.
WILKERSON: Then you've had plenty of time.
VARGAS: If there was a process, I would have done it.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: He was brought here by his parents.
VARGAS: When I was 12.
KELLY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
VARGAS: And I didn't come from Mexico. You know, actually.
WILKERSON: Oh, Mexico has no bearing on it. I mean, it's legal or illegal. It has no bearing on color, race, or where you're from.
VARGAS: Well, thank you for saying that. But, just so you know, the fastest growing undocumented population is the Asian people. So when Trump talks about the border and building that wall, I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: But, Jose, I understand your problem that you're identifying with. But what about Laura's problem and the -- I mean, sympathy is nice.
VARGAS: Yeah.
KELLY: But they want it to stop. And they see the best way of stopping, you know, the future murders by illegal immigrants is to keep them out of the country and throw them out of the country.
VARGAS: Well, we don't want murderers here. I don't understand how people can go back in and out, in and out. I haven't left this country since I was 12. I have been here. So I agree with this idea of making sure people don't come in and out, in and out, in and out. But this is where we need to figure out what are we going to do with all the people here? The majority of folks have said, even the Republicans have said that the majority of them believe there should be a path to legalization for somebody like me.
KELLY: What do you think about that, Laura? Do you favor any sort of path to legalization?
WILKERSON: Just coming in the right way. Get in line, and come in and tell us who you are. We have a right to know who's in this country. So that's the only thing I believe. You know, they've put themselves in harm by coming here.
KELLY: What about people like Jose who didn't?
WILKERSON: Well, his parents should be accountable for that. It's my opinion that your parents should be held accountable for that. You've had long enough to get in line. I mean.
KELLY: Let me ask Juan because he's a Donald Trump supporter. You see the issue, right?
JUAN HERNANDEZ, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I do.
KELLY: They're not going to agree, and the American people haven't done a very good job of agreeing either. Is this an issue? You're a Donald Trump supporter. Do you support him on this issue?
HERNANDEZ: I do support him on this issue. I work in the criminal justice field. And so, I see repeat offenders. It's happening and if you're here undocumented and you're here illegally, if you're here illegally and you're here undocumented, if you get in the criminal justice system, then you go back. And then if you come in, then you go back. I mean, I see it repeatedly. They arrest them and just let them go like another legal citizen.
KELLY: What about people like Jose who haven't been breaking additional laws, who haven't.
VARGAS: I haven't done anything illegal.
KELLY: He hasn't done anything illegal.
HERNANDEZ: To me, we have to use resources in the right way, right? So if we have people, you're not just one person. If there was just one person, that would be fine, but it's multiple people. You have someone who is undocumented, and you have someone who is undocumented, and you have someone who is undocumented.
KELLY: I got to go, but I have to ask you quickly. You still support Donald Trump as a Latino despite the comments he made about the Hispanic judge?
HERNANDEZ: I do, because I wouldn't want someone on there who is going to -- who I feel has bias on me. If they go to court, they're.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: Based simply on their heritage, you could deduce they were against you?
HERNANDEZ: If I were -- yes, I agree with him.
KELLY: You are entitled to your opinion. That's why I asked you. Great to see you all. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for being here.
We've got breaking tonight, new reaction to one of the convention's most dramatic moments so far, a move from delegates against some of the GOP rules that could ensure Donald Trump as a Republican nominee. There was a bit of a revolt from the floor today. It all came hours ago, and we've got the details behind the chaos and some controversial comments that happened and whether Donald Trump's nomination is in danger? Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: Right now, Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton is addressing the convention. Senator Cotton is the youngest person serving in the U.S. Senate. He's an Iraq and Afghanistan war veteran who joined the army after the 9/11 attacks. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM COTTON, R-ARK.: We're blessed to serve, and we're grateful for the generosity of our fellow citizens. But there are a few things we'd like. We'd like a commander-in-chief who speaks of winning wars and not merely ending wars.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Rudy Giuliani should take the stage with a much anticipated speech. Earlier today, the anti-Trump vote forced some drama onto the floor of the convention hall. Some call it an effort to free the delegates. Others say it's a movement with no chance of succeeding except for potentially embarrassing Donald Trump. Here's how it played out. It was extraordinary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those opposed shall say no.
(CROWD SHOUTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Chief Washington correspondent James Rosen is live on the convention floor with more. James.
JAMES ROSEN, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, for decades, reporters and others have been complaining that modern presidential conventions are too scripted and dull, coronations full of drama and conflict, not here, not tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROWD SHOUTING POINT OF ORDER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEN: Forces loyal to Ted Cruz claiming to represent the GOP grassroots as well as dedicated never-Trumpers went ballistic when they were denied a roll call vote on whether to adopt the rules package governing this convention. And the existing rules were adopted with a voice that sounded fairly evenly divided. Delegations supporting Ted Cruz cried out shame, and delegates from Colorado and Iowa stormed out. At issue were proposed changes to rules that would have benefitted Ted Cruz, both this week and in 2020. The never-Trumpers of course wanted to unbind delegates from the presumptive nominee. Heading up Team Cruz were Ken Cuccinelli, former Virginia attorney general and Utah Senator Mike Lee. Cuccinelli at one point angrily hurled his credentials to the floor. When not negotiating with those men behind closed door, RNC Chairman Reince Priebus and Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort for feverishly whipping delegates to peel them away from the anti-Trump forces and they succeeded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What just happened on the floor is outrageous. Clearly, this is what they've been doing all along, trying to stop us from the delegates voting their conscience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were several motions made by people associated with Senator Lee. Every one of them lost. If you actually look at what the facts were, Bret, you had 44 states and all the territories overwhelmingly supporting Mr. Trump, overwhelmingly supporting the ticket, these rules.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEN: In the short term, the Cruz forces got very little of what they wanted. The Texas senator will have his name placed in nomination. He will address the delegates. We're told that a threatened walkout, mass exodus of delegates who were supportive of Ted Cruz will not happen. That will not be used to embarrass Donald Trump as one Cruz delegate told me, I've been married to my wife for 34 years. We have fights. When the fight is over, we go back to ourselves, and it's just like that for delegates, Megyn.
KELLY: Did you say back to our cells?
ROSEN: Yes, we go back to each other is what I meant. It's loud. There's distractions.
KELLY: Right, right. All right, James, great to see you.
ROSEN: Likewise.
KELLY: So the Republican's strong hold of Utah was one of the states today that tried to jump start overturning the GOP rules package backed by Trump supporters. Headlines are already calling the fight a nightmare moment for the Republican establishment. Senator Mike Lee, who was the driving force for the convention floor fight joins me today. Of course, the mainstream is he is going to say any chaos here at the RNC convention is a nightmare. What were you trying to accomplish in layman's terms?
(OFF-MIKE)
MIKE LEE, U.S. SENATOR: . miles from home in order to participate in a process. We just wanted a vote on our own rules.
KELLY: You wanted to let the delegates vote for whomever they wanted to vote for.
LEE: It's what they do, it's what we do at conventions. The first order of business at any convention is to adopt the rules.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: That would disenfranchise them because they were promised to Donald Trump.
LEE: This has nothing to do with Donald Trump. This has everything to do with the rules of our party, which we have the right to decide. The rules of our party are decided by the convention as a whole, not by a couple of RNC officials operating in a back room somewhere. So more than anything, Megyn, this was just a lost opportunity. We had an opportunity to come together as a party, to really have unity. Unity exists in a party where you can iron out.
(AUDIO GAP)
LEE: . like today, vote, and then move on. We didn't have that opportunity today, and so we missed an opportunity. It's kind of sad.
KELLY: You have not been a Donald Trump supporter or fan. You had a contentious exchange with one of the hosts about whether it's because of your personal friendship with Ted Cruz.
LEE: No.
KELLY: Is that it?
LEE: Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with that. In fact, I don't blame this situation on Donald Trump. I feel bad for Donald Trump in this circumstance. This hurts Donald Trump. I think Reince Priebus owes Donald Trump a huge apology.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: Because this hurts Donald Trump. If he had let the delegates be heard, Donald Trump would still have gotten the nomination. I am 99.9 percent certain he will. He would have anyway, and he would have been stronger as a result. He missed an opportunity tonight that was denied to him by the RNC because the RNC wouldn't let the delegate dozen what they're here to do, which is vote on the rules.
KELLY: You're not a never-Trumper, but you're not a Donald Trump fan.
LEE: Correct.
KELLY: What does Senator Mike Lee do in November?
LEE: Look, I'm waiting to be won over. I want to be won over. I want.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: No, no. For me, it's about constitutional protection, federalism, separation of powers, restoring the proper form of government. Federalism and separation of powers, put government back closer to the people where it's supposed to be. I want to hear him talking about those things. If he talked about those things, about federalism, separation of powers, he'd win all over all kinds of people like me, all across the country.
KELLY: Great to see you, Senator.
LEE: Good to see you.
KELLY: Thank you. Joining us now with more, Chris Stirewalt, our Fox News digital politics editor and Dana Perino, co-host of "The Five" and former White House press secretary. Hi.
DANA PERINO, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: Hi.
CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Hi.
KELLY: So, was it a kerfuffle of significance? Stirewalt, let's start with you.
STIREWALT: I would say the kerfuffle was fairly significant as kerfuffling goes. But I will say this, to the senator's point, this is about feeling all the feelings. Conventions are like after a family fight. You get together, you break bread. People get together and say I said things, you said things. This really was an opportunity today to start to exercise some of these demons that have plagued the party through the cycle.
KELLY: Senator Ted Cruz was unhappy with me a couple weeks ago because I gave him a hard time on the air about speaking at the convention after he said really horrible things about Donald Trump, that he said he believed -- remember the last day of his primary, he said in Indiana, I'm going to tell you what I really think about Donald Trump, and then it was a string of just really awful stuff. Is this -- is this the chance to get past that kind of thing, Dana? Should he be speaking here to try to get past that and get the party past it?
PERINO: I would actually say it goes both ways. Loyalty is not just a one-way street. And I would say that the nominee for the party actually has some responsibility, and I don't disagree with the senator that like in a football game when the ref explains the call, I feel like they deserved an explanation.
KELLY: It was supposed to happen, and it didn't happen.
PERINO: And I also think to extent the family metaphor, if they don't allow people to have a voice, it's not going to get better. In the Wall Street Journal poll over the weekend, 60 percent of Republicans said they're unsatisfied with their nominee. It doesn't mean Trump is not going to get the nomination but he does have a responsibility to try to win people over. Why not give it a shot?
KELLY: Doesn't this event do that, Stirewalt? People start to feel like, yeah, GOP grand.
STIREWALT: Well, as long as Trump -- for the first part of the convention is about the party, the last day is about the nominee. So this is a chance to get together. Remember, they love this. These people are almost as big politics nerds as I am. So it's their convention. It's not just their convention to pick a nominee. They get together. The party unifies. They like who they are. They like what's reflected. They feel good about it. And then at the end, it's sort of the bride and groom. The two parts become ready for each other and then you have the union at the end.
KELLY: Then what happens?
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: I knew he was going to go there.
PERINO: Then they would go to a honeymoon.
KELLY: Now, it feels good. Now, it feels weird because we're talking about politicians and not really man and wife. Great to see you both.
There's still much more ahead from the Republican National Convention, including a speech from former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani and Melania Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . and they demand a lawful system of immigration that protects their safety and their financial well-being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: So live here in Cleveland, we expect that in moments Donald Trump will actually take to the stage very briefly and introduce his wife, Melania Trump, who is expected to make some very personal remarks about her husband. And then the two of them will say some sort of a goodbye. That will be the moment to watch in the evening.
Also Rudy Giuliani coming up moments from now, so don't miss any of that. "The Kelly File" is going to be live at 9:00 p.m. in Cleveland all week. And don't change the channel because Bret Baier is sitting right there and the drama continues next.
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