Gorka: Importance of coup in Turkey can't be overemphasized

Insight from Dr. Sebastian Gorka, author of 'Defeating Jihad'


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," July 15, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Eric Bolling and Greg Gutfeld, it's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

We are covering three breaking news stories; two overseas and one at home. First, Donald Trump named his VP pick today. It is Indiana Governor Mike Pence. They will appear together in New York tomorrow and we will get to that in a little bit. We also have new developments on the horrific new terror attack in France. The third major one in that country within the last two years, 84 people are dead. More than 50 are still fighting for their lives and around 150 others are wounded after a terrorist in a truck plowed through crowds celebrating Bastille Day in Nice. But first, a group within Turkey's military has engaged in what appears to be an attempted coup. Let's get the latest now from "America's Newsroom" host Bill Hemmer in Nice, France. Bill, a lot to catch us up on and we're glad that you're here.

BILL HEMMER, "AMERICA NEWSROOM" CO-HOST: Certainly. Dana, let's start in Turkey and just understand the context of this country and what they've been going through for four years now. Turkey has had a war on the southern border in Syria. It is put tremendous pressure on the people, tremendous pressure on the government. In addition, they've had the challenge from the Kurdistan Workers' Party for some time. And that sliver of the world, Dana, has been so tender and so precarious for so long. It is also been -- it's been a major route for ISIS fighters in and out of Europe. If you go back to November in Paris during the bombings there that we covered, those Belgian terrorists admitted in the open how publicly they would move across the borders between Western Europe, Eastern Europe, into Turkey and back again. In addition, you've got a third factor in Turkey, that's this immigration effect. There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees who have created tremendous pressure on the country of Turkey. So what we believe we're watching right now based on the reporting we're getting is that there is a claim about a military coup. Now I want to emphasize some of the leaders in the government are suggesting this was just a small faction within the military. But as we try and flush this out over the coming hours, and perhaps the coming days, we'll get a truer picture of what's happening in there, but tremendous pressure on the government and its people. I think it's very interesting also, if you look at the statement that apparently came from the Turkish military, what they talked about was security within the country. Think about that now as we go through this story from Istanbul.

PERINO: And Bill, you flew Nice so that you could report on that. We have obviously -- just fresh and breaking news. Now 84 people are dead, there's a hundred and fifty wounded and 50 are still fighting for their lives. What is the update from this ground?

HEMMER: You know, Dana, there's a makeshift memorial that was created behind me here just in the last couple of hours. It reminds me of being in terrorist back in November in Place de la Republique where they --


HEMMER: . that was --


HEMMER: . for this country.


HEMMER: . couple of minutes, you see people coming together and they hug and the tears come rolling down their eyes because for the third time now, in 18 months, this country has been hit by a major terrorist attack. We're learning some details about the driver of that truck age 31, born in Tunisia but lived locally here in East France. But he did have a criminal record. Not extensive, but a criminal record estranged from his wife, accused of domestic violence that went back about four years. He also apparently has got a bar fight here in Nice back in January, has got a road rage incident in the month of March. He was convicted in that incident, Dana. He was sentenced to jail for six months, did not serve, did no time because it was just his first conviction. We're starting to piece together, though, what happened here about 25 hours ago. There are about 1,200 security cameras throughout the city of Nice, France. They believe in the hills outside of town, they can trace him loading weapons and grenades in the back of that 19-ton truck. And then they can follow him throughout the city arriving at a police checkpoint just about a half mile from our location here. Something happened that allowed him to get past that police checkpoint, and he jammed that accelerator, Dana. And the carnage left in its wake is just astounding; 84, 85 dead. That number will change throughout the night. And of the wounded more than 200 wounded, 25 are on life support as we speak.

PERINO: All right.

HEMMER: More in a moment from Nice, France.


PERINO: Bill, thank you so much. And we are also joined now by Dr. Sebastian Gorka, who is on the phone with us to bring us up to speed both on Turkey and to give us some perspective also on this latest terrorist attack in Nice. Dr. Gorka, thanks for being with us today. Your thoughts on -- take your story, whichever one you want to start with.

DR. SEBASTIAN GORKA, "DEFEATING JIHAD" AUTHOR: Well, very quickly. Nice is, is very significant not only because of the scale, but because it -- oh, well, it proves that --

PERINO: Sorry, doctor. You're on by phone. You're obviously here with us and thank you so much.


PERINO: Go ahead.

GORKA: OK. All right well, OK. Let's talk about the most important geostrategic event, that's Turkey. The events in France are an atrocity. Our heart goes out to all who are kill -- all who were killed and the victims who are lying in the hospital right now. The geostrategic important of the coup in Turkey cannot, literally cannot be over emphasized. This is the largest military in Europe belonging to NATO. It was a pivotal ally during the cold war. And in the last few years under the reign, and I mean the reign of Erdogan, it has been -- it has become a fundamentalist nation, or nation run by a crypt of Muslim brotherhood, type of elite. And now the military has said, "Enough is enough. We're taking our country back." Remember, the legacy of attitude (ph), the founder of the secular Turkish state was that the military was always going to be the guarantor of democracy. They were intimidated under Erdogan; the former chair of the joint chiefs was arrested on a completely false trumped up terrorism charge. He tried to intimidate the political elite. He tried to intimidate the military elite. Now the military has stepped up to the plate and said, "You've been playing footsy under the table with the Islamists, you've been helping ISIS. We're going to stop it." This is big news.

PERINO: So you have basically Erdogan made a deal with the devil and now .

GORKA: Totally.

PERINO: . we're seeing results of that.

GORKA: Yeah, I mean --

PERINO: Eric Bolling has a question for you, Sir.

GORKA: Yeah.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Dr. Gorka, let me see if I can bring these two events together and then weigh in on this. So Turkey wanted to become part of the European Union which would entail millions of Turkish and possibly refugees into the European Union, into the homeland on Europe. Meanwhile, we have in Nice, allegedly this crazed idiot yells Allahu Akbar before he mows down 84 and possibly more coming up. Do they -- are we seeing a pattern here? Should we take a lesson from what they've done wrong in Europe?

GORKA: Oh, absolutely Eric. So think about what Brexit was about. Brexit wasn't just about sovereignty and faceless bureaucrats in Brussels deciding, you know, what a British sausage could have in it. It was about national security. It was about the idea that you cannot vet people coming from a war zone as refugees into the continent of Europe with some countries like Germany accepting more than a million so-called refugees who then have freedom of movement inside the EU. And Secretary Kerry, although he denied this, somebody should tell him the facts. One of the Brussels bombers got in to Europe on a fake Syrian passport and was awarded refugee status in the EU. This isn't a hypothetical, Eric, this is a reality. ISIS is doing this and they have plans to do it here in America, as well. So the question of Muslim populations, integration, the exploitation of those communities that aren't integrated, this is national security at the highest level.

PERINO: Greg Gutfeld.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hey, doctor. You know, when we see events that happen in Nice or in other places, they're always -- there's always the candle lighting and the vigils, and then we move on. Is there any sense at all that we will not be moving on? That we've kind of had enough of the candles and the vigils and now it is actually time for action?

GORKA: Yeah, you know who that's up to, Greg? That's up to us. That's up to the French voters. That's up to the German voters, the American voters, because the elite have failed us. I really, you know, if you talk to the operators, if you meet with the French intelligence agents, the law enforcement agents, you meet with the FBI special agents pounding the pavement trying to keep us safe, they get. They know the threat to America. That's not the problem. The problem is the political elite that say, you know, these are not the droids you're looking for, there's no such things as jihad. Religion is irrelevant. You need jobs for these guys and we're going to solve the problem. That's the issue, lack of leadership. And leadership only takes things seriously if they feel as if they're going to lose their job or if they're replaced with people who are true leaders. Look what happened last night with Hillary. I was in the green room here in New York, in D.C., waiting to go on. And we see Hillary Clinton on the "Bill O'Reilly" show. I thought I'd stepped through the looking glass into an ultimate universe. Why did that happened? Because she knows, she finally clicked after Nice. November isn't going to be about pocketbooks, it's not going to be about ObamaCare. November for Americans is going to be about national security. Am I going to be safe when I step out of my home every morning? And she's desperate. But you know it, and "The Five" know it, this is about national security now.

PERINO: Kimberly Guilfoyle.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hi, Dr. Gorka. Thanks for being with us. So with national security and our interests here in America at the foremost important right now, especially given just the complex events that are going on in Turkey, what we saw in Nice and the number of other attacks that have happened throughout the world. What would be your advice to the White House, to this administration, that should be done immediately so we don't lose time between now and the next election in November?

GORKA: Well, look. In my book "Defeating Jihad," there are three very simple things; get politics out of the threat assessment. No more political correctness. No more censorship. Be honest. Who is the enemy, what do they call themselves, what is their plan and recognize they're evil. They're not victims. They're evil. Secondly, we have to empower our Muslim allies, and this includes Turkey if Turkey stabilizes. We cannot be the face of this war. White Christians, black-skinned Christians or Atheists can't be the face of this war. It has to be the local Sunnis who are paying the biggest price right now that includes the Egyptians, the Jordanians. Those governments who have been (inaudible) systematically for seven years by Obama, they have to be encouraged to come together. We have to convince them, we want them to win and we have to help them to crush ISIS. And lastly, you know, I'm a kid of the cold war, and I grew up understanding that the totalitarian are always just a generation away. These guys are totalitarians. The jihadists are just as much a totalitarians as the communists or the fascists. They just have this religious overlay. We can only win if we delegitimatize their message. We have to have a giant counterpropaganda campaign like Ronald Reagan had in the 1980s. Those three things together -- sorry it's not five -- those three things together and we could defeat the jihadist in a matter of a year and a half.

PERINO: That's really excellent perspective. We're going to keep going with you.


PERINO: Juan Williams.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Oh, hi, Sebastian. I just had a quick question about, what do we know about this 31-year-old who perpetrated this horrific act in Nice? From what I am reading, he is a Tunisian national, and there has been no direct connection made between his actions and the terrorists, but we do know that the terrorists have celebrated what he has done in terms of their social media. So I'm just curious if we are -- where are we in establishing a direct link to the terrorists?

GORKA: Right. So what the facts are, we know he's a French Tunisian which is very significant, incredibly significant. Because Tunisia, of all the nations of the region has supplied the highest number of jihadist to ISIS, which is really shocking because the conventional wisdom is that Tunisians are liberal, no, it's not, and they provided the greatest number of jihadist. He has an S-file in France, which means he's had running's with the law; petty crime, violent crime. I don't think he served time. He was convicted, but I'm not sure he served time. But if he did, that's another potential avenue because we've seen lot of jihadist be recruited in prison in Europe and also here in America. And the last thing is the really disappointing thing where people still in, you know, we've got schools of people in intensive care still. We've got Americans dead, including a child. And already, there are people trying to generate the narrative that, oh, he wasn't a real Muslim. He drank pork and he was a bad guy. So his cousin, of course, is trying to generate the kind of narrative we expect of the Obama White House here. So the news is interesting, it's not conclusive with regards to connections to the jihadi conspiracy. But Juan, the point is it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether he was, you know, controlled by ISIS or not. If he's shouting Allahu Akbar, he's a jihadi.

PERINO: So also, Dr. Gorka, last night on the Megyn Kelly show, on "the Kelly File," Marc Thiessen was talking about -- he actually had the document from the "Inspire" magazine .


PERINO: . which is the "Propaganda Magazine" that said, "Step by step, if you want to be a jihadist, this is exactly how you should carry out an attack." So I don't see why we're spending time thinking about whether or not there's a terror connection. It was actually, almost described perfectly in "Inspire" magazine.

GORKA: Well, absolutely. This is issue two, I think in 2010, the English language, al-Qaeda magazine. And remember, ISIS came out of al-Qaeda. ISIS is the former al-Qaeda in Iraq. And in this magazine, you can download now, you know, the FBI may knock on your door tomorrow, but you can download it. There's a photograph of an F-150 pickup truck. And the article in English says, "You don't need a gun. You don't need to build a pressure cooker bomb. Just take your truck and mow the infidel down like you're mowing grass." This attack should not have surprised anybody. And the fact that we have reports that the driver, the jihadi, was sitting on the boulevard for three to six hours, waiting to do the attack, and he got away with it. That's very bad. That's very bad.

PERINO: Eric have question.

BOLLING: Dr. Gorka, a comment and you can tell me if I'm wrong, if I'm crazy, but I have a hunch you're going to agree with me. So President Obama came out this morning, this afternoon, about 3 o`clock or so, and he spent about 10 minutes talking about this Nice attack. And he warned of a kneejerk reaction, an Islamophobic reaction by the world and the American people. And then he said, "And I recommend diplomacy." And I'm -- my mind almost exploded at that moment. I'm thinking, here's a terrorist, here's someone who may not think is a terrorist, but if he yells Allahu Akbar, and as Dana points out or Thiessen points out, they use exactly the same tactics in at terrorist magazine, I would called him a terrorist. That would by definition be a terrorist for me.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah -- just kidding.

BOLLING: But for the president to say we need to use diplomacy, who are we being diplomatic with, terrorists now? Is that what he's recommending?

GORKA: Do I really have to comment? It's --


GORKA: It's unconscionable. I mean, the idea that after Fort Hood, the chief of staff of the army said, he's priority concern is that we don't threaten multiculturalism in the armed forces. After Orlando, we have the attorney general say, "We will win with our best weapon which is love." Can you tell that please, to the people who were burned alive in the ovens of Auschwitz? When you're facing totalitarians whether its fascists, whether it's a KKK, communist, Hitler or whether it's the jihadist, there's nothing to negotiate about. You can't love them. You can't win with diplomacy. You crush them into the ground. I really -- every time we have a horrific event, I say, please, God, let this be the moment when the administration says, OK, we messed up. We're going to take it seriously now. We're going crush these individuals.

WILLIAMS: All right, so Sebastian, let me give you the other side from the Dr. Bolling perspective, which is that here in the United States, we have been so blessed in terms of not suffering the degree of horror that we've seen and repeated now .

PERINO: That's not blessing.

WILLIAMS: . for the last few months --

PERINO: That's not a blessing.

WILLIAMS: Well I think --

PERINO: That's effort and work.

WILLIAMS: So here's my point to you. If, in fact, we have been able to hold, to hold the Muslim community in this country as a part of an integrated hold, with they're not concentrated in ghettos, not segregated and the like as we often see in many of the European countries. And for that reason, they have been much more taken into the mainstream. Isn't that, as well as keeping our Arab-Muslim allies working with us to our advantage?

GORKA: Yeah. Let me share with you the statistics of the facts of the case. We have killed or arrested 107 ISIS suspects in America since the caliphate was declared two years ago. Not seven. Not 77, a hundred and seven. Less than 20 percent were people that we discovered because their community told them about us. We found them through the internet or by accident. That is a very bad number, a very pad proportion.

PERINO: All right. Dr. Gorka, you're gonna -- I think you're going to stick around.


PERINO: We have just to take a quick break and we will be back with more on these developments. Thanks.


GUILFOYLE: And now to another breaking story today, Trump's announcement of Mike Pence as his running mate. He made the announcement on Twitter this morning, quote, "I am pleased to announce that I have chosen Governor Mike Pence as my vice presidential running mate." News conference tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. But reporters caught up with the Indiana governor in New York City earlier.


MIKE PENCE, INDIANA GOVERNOR: Very excited, humble and very grateful. We love Indiana. We love our country. My family and I couldn't be more honored .


PENCE: . to have the opportunity to run with and serve with the next president of the United States.


GUILFOYLE: All right. And Sean Hannity has an exclusive interview with Pence tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern, so you definitely don't want to miss that. So let's go now to Campaign Carl, he is live at Trump Tower with all the very latest. Carl, very nice to see you.

CARL CAMERON, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Likewise, Kimberly. The Trump campaign and Mr. Pence had a meeting today. It lasted about hour and a half. The governor of Indiana made it very clear with his filing in Indianapolis that he's not going to be running for governor, obviously, today. The stage craft of this pretty much revealed the realities of who this election was going to be, couple of days ago. And Mr. Trump wasn't all that thrilled with the way it appeared to be leaking so rapidly yesterday. There was considerable consternation about it. He was upset about and irritated about it. He thought it could have been a little bit of a better starting point, but for their professional relationship now is the ticket. But such as it is, tomorrow at 11:00, they will have a news conference, take questions and we will see Donald Trump and Mike pence as a twosome, answering questions from the press and explaining why their ticket they believe will be better than Hillary and whoever she picks.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Thank you. So we've got a bunch of questions. Eric, what do you think about the pick in terms of how it's playing out in the press today?

BOLLING: Well, I think everyone is kind of digesting what Mike Pence is about. I was very encouraged to see Paul Ryan with the positive tweet about Mike Pence. I was encouraged to see Marco Rubio, very early in the morning with a positive tweet about Mike Pence. I think what they'll going to go and Trump --if I'm reading this selection right, is that they'll going to go for the economy and jobs. Pence have been very, very sure. He instituted the biggest tax cut in the state of Indiana's history, created a lot of jobs. He was also a -- an earmarked reformer when he was a congressman, as well.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, it's true.

BOLLING: And I think it's really smart for them to take that because we know all these exit polls, people say the most important things, yeah national security, yes. But economy and jobs number one. So it sounds like a good pick.

GUILFOYLE: OK Dana, what do you think? I know you like it for a bumper sticker.

PERINO: Oh, Trump-Pence.


PERINO: So as well, five letters, perfect. But I think in our A-block, we were talking to Dr. Gorka who -- in his opinion, then this election comes down to national security. I think that campaigns can do both, right? So that it's possible that you can be, as Donald Trump said earlier this week, "I'm the law and order candidate," which I think extends to national security, not just domestic problems we might have here at home, as well as do the jobs things. I mean he's got -- Pence has very good relationships with a lot of people in the establishment, right? So it's like Ryan, Rubio, those guys all put up positive statements. That's not a bad thing for the Trump campaign at all. I do think that Pence --

GUILFOYLE: Also the Tea Party people?

PERINO: Oh, definitely.

GUILFOYLE: The party caucus.

PERINO: The relationships there. So I actually think that this will be -- this is a good, safe pick for him. I do feel for Newt Gingrich and Chris Christie, who I think put up a good fight for it. And maybe they'll end up doing something else. Of course, already Chris Christie has a very important job of running the transition; huge responsibility.

GUILFOYLE: Huge responsibility. Yeah. It couldn't be more important. Greg?

GUTFELD: Well, I'm not sure that this is the choice that Trump wanted. You know, I think Trump wanted to do something daring, and I think this was maybe -- hoisted upon him to polish his edges, because remember, Trump is the switchblade and Pence is kind of like a spork. He's like, he pleases everybody; both a knife and a fork.

PERINO: And that was spork, actually.

GUTFELD: Everybody loves a spork. And I mean, and the fact is, you know, Trump -- I mean Trump is --

GUILFOYLE: We have on the bus.

GUTFELD: It goes back to what Gorka says about -- it's all about national security. And I think Trump -- last night probably thought, Flynn, after looking at Nice going like, this is it, this is it, but he couldn't .


GUTFELD: . do it.

GUILFOYLE: But all those people can be in important positions. You have Christie as AG. You can have Flynn at NSA or something of that level and you know --

GUTFELD: I'm thinking -- I think he has a better chance of controlling Pence than Newt.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. All right, Juanito.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think this is all about the Midwest. Because, I think that what we see here is, if you pick Mike Pence who is strong in the Midwest, as opposed to Newt Gingrich who has a national profile, and guess what, Mike Pence is a guy who's tight with social conservatives.


WILLIAMS: Specifically on the abortion issue where Trump has been kind of, people aren't sure what he thinks. They're not sure if he even goes to church, and all that. Mike Pence backs him up, gives him a base, but it's the reaching out to white men in the Midwest on the trade issue that really, I think helps Donald Trump here. If his strategy has any chance, he's got to go through western Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan; that's where Mike Pence is a known factor. And of course, as we heard around the table, he's good with the GOP establishment.

GUILFOYLE: It sounds like an endorsement from Juan Williams, a very learned man. All right, next. We return to the terror attack in France, we'll be back in a moment. Stay with us.


GUTFELD: After each terror attack, the western instinct is to always stress restraint. Be careful. Don't act rash. And as for retaliating, we're often told, "Hey, we're better than that." So how's that working out? For once, let's be worse.

For every time I hear that our leaders have been briefed, you know it's about what not to say, not about what we should do, which is why we move slower than a James Taylor song.

This inaction normalizes terror. It means we're stuck with Islamism forever. Our shrug is their drug.

Some headlines said that a truck, a truck attacked the event. No. There was someone driving that truck, and what was driving that someone was Islamism. If only we treated terror like something the media finds truly hateful, like smoking or drunk driving. Would our leaders take Islamism seriously if they killed for fossil fuels?

Instead, our leader hide the facts. Apparently -- this is amazing -- the French government hid news of gruesome torture of the Bataclan victims. If I gave you the details, you'd pass out. But why hide deeds that should shock the world? We don't do that with other brutality.

Every time you hide the truth, evil wins.

So this isn't about the easy availability of trucks. It's about our failure to fight evil. Ambivalence, masked by online sorrow, now replaces real action. Expressing solidarity on Twitter feels good, but the war will be won on the battlefield, not online.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

GUTFELD: It's time for solidarity. Get away from me, fly.

PERINO: It's not a fly.

GUTFELD: Wow. What was that?

GUILFOYLE: That was a wasp.

GUTFELD: That was a wasp? All right. Holy -- that had to be a metaphor. Maybe I should go to church.

BOLLING: Yes. Yes, that was God telling me to wise up.

PERINO: Maybe.

GUILFOYLE: Never a dull moment. What can I say?

GUTFELD: That's a first. All right.

We're also following the attempted coup taking place right now in Turkey. Hemmer, you're watching the news feed. What have you got?

BILL HEMMER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Greg, just trying to piece this together now, based on the reports, the headlines we're getting out of Turkey. Impossible to verify, but this is what we're hearing.

The airport's closed. Heavy gunfire reported in the capital of Ankara. Military planes flying over the Bosporus Strait. That's near Istanbul, the largest city in Turkey. Tanks reported in some city streets. And again, this is just we're picking up right now on the feed out of Turkey.

State TV did read a statement on behalf of the military, talking about this coup. They cited two things. No. 1, rising autocratic rule within the Turkish government. And No. 2, increased terrorism.

I think that second point is very important. That goes to national security. That goes to a country that's been dealing with a Syrian war on the southern border for four years, the rising threat of ISIS, the immigration strains that have been placed on Turkey, whereas the E.U. has sort of, going back to last March, told Turkey what to do about more immigrants and refugee. In other words, keep them. That they were coming. And you had to accept them.

I think you find that now in this military coup in Turkey. You find it here in France going back in the past year. The rising parties on the right, talk about nationalism. They talk about security here in France. It is also true in Italy. I think you mentioned this about 20 minutes ago. Brexit was a part of that, as well.

So that's what you see right now here in Europe and stretching into further east in Turkey.

One more point: John Kerry was with reporters in Moscow a bit earlier. He said the following: he hopes for stability, peace, and continuity at Turkey. We'll see whether or not we get that real soon.

Back to you in New York.

GUTFELD: Thanks, Bill.

So Dana, we heard from Mr. Kerry. That's always encouraging.

PERINO: The State Department, copy, paste.


PERINO: "We hope for stability." That's always available.

But I understand that the State Department, they have languages they have to use. There's international norms. I get all that.

I do think that, in addition to all the things Bill Hemmer said, there is mounting pressure in the United States for President Obama to do more.

Remember, you had three secretaries of defense -- Hagel, Panetta, and Gates -- all resign over the fact that they had a different perspective. And this was one of them, that they wanted to fight harder.

Now today we find out that not only is President Obama doing this, I think troubling partnership with Putin in Russia to fight ISIS, you saw Assad, the president there saying they -- they're not serious about it.

But I think pressure is mounting for President Obama to do more.

Found out today also that the 82rd Airborne is going to deploy. There will be boots on the ground in December of this year, which is different than what President Obama promised. And that's OK. And if they are willing to change the policies, I think we should applaud them and support them so our military can do what we need them to do.

Charles Krauthammer reminded us last night on "O'Reilly," we can fight them there or we'll fight them here. And I'd rather fight them there.

GUTFELD: Yes, better late than never, right Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: Well, I mean, I guess. I mean, you know, yes, it's important that they're finally waking up, but at our country's national security expense.

So there's much to be done. There's much that should have been done. And it's really a matter of leadership and making the right decisions and not being, you know, tied up in this semantic molasses where they can't even say "radical Islamist terrorism."

So let's get going; let's, like, start it today.

GUTFELD: Eric, this is bad news for ISIS?

BOLLING: I'm trying to figure this out. In -- we pointed out that Erdogan is -- he's out of the country.

PERINO: I think he was on vacation.

BOLLING: So, well, the original thought is, well, he went away, so that -- that was the opportunity for this military faction to perpetrate a coup.

Or was it that he was warned or told, tipped off to leave, because this was going down. I think the CIA needs to really dig deep and find out what's going on. Remember, he's the guy who oversaw all these ISIS oil transports going through the border. He didn't put a stop to it. He could have put a stop to it.

This is going to unravel into something really...

GUILFOYLE: And Putin is loving this right now, too. So that's been a very complicated and problematic...

GUTFELD: Putin's going to be our new best friend.

PERINO: It might not be good for Putin in Turkey, the situation.


WILLIAMS: I know, it may not be, because it could go the other way.

So you know what strikes me is that listening last night to O'Reilly and then seeing Trump and Hillary Clinton, it was really something.

And here you have Trump saying, "You know what? We just need to be tougher. We need a harder strategy. We need to be tougher on our borders."

And then Clinton comes along and says, "We need a surge in terms of intelligence." And what this -- I was like, what is that? Well, he's saying that we need to have more intelligence on the ground, more cooperation with our western allies in terms of this intelligence search. I had not heard this before.

GUTFELD: Well, you know why? Would you share your intelligence with Hillary?

WILLIAMS: You got me.

GUTFELD: Unsecured server.

Lieutenant General Flynn will join us when we return.


BOLLING: Breaking news on three fronts: Trump, Turkey, and the terror in France.

Joining us now is a man who can talk about all three of those and more. Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, author of the book "Field of Fight."

Thank you for joining us, General Flynn.

So we've been talking about what President Obama said earlier regarding Nice, the terror. Last night, Juan brought up that Hillary Clinton also said something like we should use more diplomacy.

Sir, talk to us: what do we need to be doing to fight this war on terror?

LT. GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN, AUTHOR, "FIELD OF FIGHT" (via phone): First of all, thanks for having me, Eric. And I really -- I do love the show that you guys have.

So to fight this war, one of the primary things that we must do is we have to discredit this ideology and we have to get the Muslim world, the Arab leaders of the Muslim world, to stand up and be counted.

We have got to ask, you know, demand from them, not ask, but demand from them to actually, you know, say what is happening inside of their own system, and start to discredit this -- this radical cancerous form inside of the world of Islam. We cannot continue to have this sort of activity on the international stage.

So -- so there has to be some accountability, and it has to come from the leaders of the -- in the Middle East, Africa, and the central Asian republic state. I mean, this is a big deal. We cannot have this kind of terrorism around the world like this.

BOLLING: General, we've got a bunch of questions for you. Bring it around the table, K.G.

GUILFOYLE: General, it's Kimberly Guilfoyle. So I've long been an admirer of your background in intelligence and national security.

Given your background specifically in the intelligence realm, it seems to me that there's much more that we should be doing now to be able to gather information in real time, to be able to thwart these attacks and hunt the people down that want to do us harm.

FLYNN: Yes, I mean, first of all, the president came out and said, "Well, we're going to share more information. We're going give them all these resources." You mean we haven't been doing that?


FLYNN: I mean, come on. You know, I mean, we have to figure out new ways to operate in this world that is -- that is moving at a different speed. It's moving at the speed of light. It's very complex. We have a broader array of what I would describe as the hybrid types of threat. You know, Islamic radicalism is one of them. And it is -- this is a major threat at our door right now. We are going to see these types of attacks continue.

So it's beyond just intelligence sharing. This is -- this is, you know, having the willingness and the determination to develop an international strategy that goes out to these guys.

And the No. 1 thing that we have to do is we have to discredit this doctrine, this radical Islamic doctrine that exists, but we are going to have to make some new demands, new demands on what I call is a sort of a new 21st Century alliance. And that's where the Arab world comes in. These -- these individuals that run the countries, the kings, the prime ministers, and the presidents, they have to be -- have to stand up and be counted, Kimberly.

BOLLING: All right. I have so many questions, but I'm going to just pick one.

The choice that the fiend made in Nice was a patriotic event. And I wonder if that, in a way, speaks to the -- the problems with assimilation in the sense that he knew no true believers would get hurt if he went to that event.

FLYNN: Yes. You know, I'll tell you what. That's a -- that's a real hard one. Respectively (ph) not.

But I will tell you that it -- the kind of event that they were -- that they were having, which is their version of their Independence Day in France, this is the kind of stuff that this culture, that this radical form of this, you know, Islam, they don't like this kind of stuff.

I mean, there's three things that they want to do. They want to make you their slave. They want to turn you to their way of life. And if you don't -- you're not able to perform as a slave or they can't turn you to their way of life, you're going to die. And so this is a really sick -- a sick system. And -- and it has to be -- we have to fix this, and it's going to come with some fighting, but it's also going to come with some serious soul searching on the part of these countries where this stuff exists.

BOLLING: All right. General, we've got two more questions. We don't have a lot of time. So Dana is next.

PERINO: General, I know that you write about this in your new book. And in terms of President Obama, in terms of the pressure that he might be under right now, who is he hearing from? I know he wasn't hearing from you. But if the 82nd Airborne is going to deploy in December, is there going to be a show of force here? Is there something new that's happening? And will rules of engagement change if pressure is brought to bear from the military on the White House?

FLYNN: Yes. I hope he's listening to General Joe Dunford. I'm a big fan of Joe Dunford as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff.

And I will tell you that, you know, you guys are also watching the unfolding of this military coup, potentially, in Turkey. This is not a small issue.

I just literally five minutes ago got a note from a Turkish friend in Turkey, and they are highly, highly concerned. I mean, so -- and I know I don't have time to talk about that. But there's so much complexity, and I'm afraid that the president doesn't have the really big strategic thinkers that we need right now. And we really desperately need them. And he doesn't have them. I personally don't think that he's getting the kind of advice that he needs, that is -- that this is now a time for tough diplomacy. This is a time for big demands that the United States has to put on.

BOLLING: General Flynn, we're going to have to leave it there. We really appreciate your time tonight, sir.

FLYNN: Yes. Thanks a lot for having me on, guys. You have a great show.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you.

BOLLING: Thank you very much. Very much. Be safe.

GUTFELD: Thank you.

BOLLING: All right, thank you. We'll be right back.


WILLIAMS: The crush of news has been so overwhelming, and today no exception. We have an ongoing coup in Turkey. We're still catching up with what took place in France, and of course, Donald Trump has selected Mike Pence, governor of Indiana as his running mate.

The one story that we all know about here, politics and Governor Pence. Let me go to Greg.

And Greg, Mike Pence describes himself as Rush Limbaugh on decaf. Is that good?

GUTFELD: I guess so. I do think that it has a lot to do with -- I think that Donald Trump is a secular -- more of a secular candidate, and I think that he's -- this is a choice to kind of, like, fill that religiosity, that part of him. It's kind of like he's his Father Mulcahy.

GUTFELD: Dana, want to -- so where they differ and a lot of the news media now suddenly focusing heavily on Pence, in a way most people don't know who he is, say he disagrees on Trump on the Indiana judge. Remember that Trump said that he's Mexican, can't be fair.

Second, he disagrees with Trump on the ban on Muslim immigrants.

Third, he endorsed Ted Cruz during the primaries, and fourth, he's for free trade.

PERINO: Right. So not unusual that there would be some differences between people, one, but also between a vice-presidential candidate and a president.

And Trump and Pence must have figured out a way to at least have a rapport enough that they could come to an understanding. And Pence will probably have to eat some words, and Trump will have to probably swallow some that he would like to say as this new marriage gets introduced to America.

WILLIAMS: And Eric, overnight, there were reports that Trump might have changed his mind.

BOLLING: No. I didn't hear about that. But OK, very quickly, last night we heard Hillary Clinton using the same words that President Obama used this morning. We need more diplomacy. I would say that she wanted to be the next third term Obama. She's going to do it.

WILLIAMS: All right. We're going to take a break right here. Stay wuss. "The Five" will be right back.


PERINO: Welcome back to "The Five." A busy news day. Kimberly Guilfoyle, your thoughts?

GUILFOYLE: Indeed, just when you just see all the confluence of events, what's happening in Turkey with an overthrow underway, the terror attacks that have just been happening over the course of the past month, it just gives you real pause to consider national security should be at the foremost importance for our country at this time, and leadership in that direction is much needed.

PERINO: We have a minute left before we have to go. I just saw right before we left that Erdogan, the president of Turkey, who is out of the country, is seeking asylum in Germany, which is pretty interesting.

GUTFELD: Amazing.

PERINO: Because do you remember, it was just a few weeks ago that Germany passed a law saying it was illegal to insult President Erdogan.

GUTFELD: What could happen next, an asteroid? This has been -- this is the worst year, I think, in my memory in terms of horrifying news and just instability.

PERINO: And then now we have the RNC convention to go to. Eric, are you looking forward to it?

BOLLING: That's going to be great. We have a lot to talk about. We won't have a shortage of things to talk about.

PERINO: That's right. Well, as you know, it's been a busy day for news, a very important time not only for our country but for the world. And that is why this election is so important.

In a few moments, we are heading to the Republican convention on our bus tour we've been telling you about. And we hope to talk to you along the way. You can follow us on Facebook right now to watch as we embark on this road trip.

Thank you for joining us tonight. See you Sunday for a special edition of "The Five," live from Cleveland. We'll see you then.

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