D.L. Hughley speaks out about recent police shootings

Actor engages in heated debate on 'The Kelly File' about race relations in America


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," July 13, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, President Obama in an attempt at a healing moment on race relations, may have fallen short again.  We'll get to the guest list at the White House in a moment.

Welcome to "The Kelly File" everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Just a short while ago, President Obama finish meeting with law enforcement, elected officials and some Black Lives Matter activists from across the country. In a get- together that the White House described as a quote, "conversation about community policing."


PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: We're not at a point yet where communities of color feel confident that their police departments are serving them with dignity and respect and equality and we're not at the point yet where Police Departments feel adequately as supported at all levels.


KELLY: The meeting comes roughly one week after the shooting deaths of Alton Sterling in Louisiana, and Philando Castile in Minnesota. In both cases, national outrage was ignited, and racial tensions heightened and new anger at law enforcement took the form of protest across this country. The death of Castile, in Minnesota, even garnered a passionate reaction from Minnesota's governor, who questioned whether the shooting would have occurred had Castile been White.


GOV. MARK DAYTON, D-MINN.: Would this have happened if those passengers or the driver and passenger were white? I don't think it would have. So I'm forced to confront -- and I think all of us in Minnesota are forced to confront this kind of racism exists.


KELLY: Wow! Now after angry protests in a series of attacks on cops, including a deadly ambush in Dallas, Texas, new evidence is coming to light, and not getting much attention from the larger media about the two cases that, in part, resulted in this. And the folks leading the national debate, well, you'll hear about that, too. In a moment, we're going to hear from former L.A. Police Detective Mark Fuhrman, and radio host, D.L. Hughley.

But first, we go to Trace Gallagher who has been following the latest developments in these cases -- Trace.  

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And Megyn, we're going to play you dispatched audiotapes obtained by two Minneapolis news outlets that appear to show that a broken taillight was not the reason Roseville police initially pulled over Philando Castile instead one of the officers believed he was following a robbery suspect. Listen.  


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two occupants just look like people that were involved in a robbery. The driver looks more like one of our suspects, because of the wide-set nose.  


GALLAGHER: Castile's family says the tape sounds like racial profiling.  The lawyer for the officer who shot Castile says there was reasonable suspicion for the traffic stop and that the shooting had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun, but now Philando Castile's girlfriend has changed her story saying, the officer didn't know anything about a gun. Telling ABC News, quoting, he didn't ask about it.  He didn't know it was on his person. He came to the car. He said it was a traffic stop for a taillight and then he asked for a license and registration, that was it, that was all. But that was not what the girlfriend said on tape moments after the shooting. Watch.  


DIAMOND REYNOLDS, PHILANDO CASTILE'S GIRLFRIEND: He's licensed to carry.  He was trying to get out his I.D. And his wallet out of his pocked and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet.


GALLAGHER: The tape also has the officer saying, he repeatedly warned Castile to keep his hands inside. And now the Roseville police chief is slamming comments made by Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton claiming Castile never received medical attention. Chief Rick Mathwig said, he was given CPR, the chief went on to say that Castile's girlfriend and four-year-old daughter were also treated well, despite the girlfriend's allegations to the contrary -- Megyn.  

KELLY: Trace, thank you.

Joining me now with more, former L.A. Police Detective Mark Fuhrman. Mark, good to see you. So, this is what so often happens in these cases, is we see what looks like disturbing video, and disturbing facts and then there's a rush to judgment and I don't know what the facts are going to bear out in this Minnesota case. But you tell me whether, you know, why we're not seeing equal media coverage as some of the initial allegations appear to be falling apart.

MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER L.A. POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, Megyn, I suppose, some of these media outlets are getting a lot of mileage out of actually starting a fire and then throwing gasoline on it. When they have a cell phone video, let's just take the Sterling case to begin with --

KELLY: That's the one in Louisiana.  

FUHRMAN: When you have that cell phone video, yes, I believe that that's actually was advantageous for the officers because it shows not only did they get a radio call there with the man with the gun. They identified the man. The man refuses to get on the ground. They taze him, and it's infective, they actually deescalate their force, and then tackle him and try to just grapple with him and get control of him and hand cuff him. He goes for a gun, one officer says he's got a gun, a shooting goes down. I believe that shooting is going to be not only in policy, there won't be any charges, state or federal, and that is just the way it's going to go down, I suspect, but that's my belief.

Now we go to the Castile shooting. All we know in the Castile shooting initially is we see a wounded man or what we believe to be a wounded man in the car, and the girlfriend telling us what occurred. We don't know anything else. We see an officer standing by the window, but we don't know anything that preceded this, but yet they run away with, it had to be a racist shooting by the police.  

KELLY: Uh-hm. How about that? Because I mean it was extraordinary -- listen. It's not that extraordinary in today's day in age to hear people.  You know, civilians watching it make that leap, or in the case on this show last week, the Reverend Jesse Jackson made that leap and said those cops are racist. But the Governor -- the Governor of the state coming out and saying, this is about racism is quite a leap, especially now that we know that there was a report of a robbery suspect.

You hear the officer saying he believed he matched the description, and there are now several inconsistencies already that we know of already in the girlfriend's story including one in which she said, they kept her for six hours in the police station with access to no one and now we know in fact, it was only two hours and there are at least two other inconsistencies in the story that she told.

FUHRMAN: Well, Megyn the girlfriend is either lying before or she's lying now. It doesn't matter which. She was lying one time or another and at the very list, she's completely confused and she knows nothing. But when you look at an officer encountering a situation, it's not profiling to look for a suspect that's identified in a crime, that's called police work. If he has a probable cause to stop this person and says "don't move your hands," he moves his hands and he's moving towards what he sees to be a gun, that's a good shooting.

It's going to be very disturbing for people of both these shootings turnout to be not only in policy, and the department but legal, and outside of a purview of a prosecution by the Justice Department. But those are the facts and that's the way it goes down. And I always find it fascinating, Megyn that everybody thinks they know how to be a cop but they really don't. That's like saying that, you know, you go to the doctor for a reason, you go to the doctor to have them diagnose you, you don't do it yourself and then operate on yourself. Well, the police are the same way.  It's a profession, and they're very good at it and they actually train and they're educated and it's constant training.

But if I could just add this one thing, the people at large from the president, right down to the last citizen in the community, fails to realize one thing. Police departments concentrate their manpower in the most crime-ridden, most violent crime areas and those officers don't have a choice. Those officers are driven by a radio that tells them where to go, that a citizen in that community is saying "I need help, this just happened, this person just did this, this person just shot them."

KELLY: Uh-hm.

FUHRMAN: So this is not something the officers have a choice. They're trying to do a job that is almost entirely impossible.

KELLY: Mark Fuhrman, thank you.  

FUHRMAN: Thank you.  

KELLY: Joining me now with reaction, D.L. Hughley, actor, radio host and actor of " Black Man, White House: An Oral History of the Obama Years."  D.L., thank you for being here.

D.L. HUGHLEY, AUTHOR, "BLACK MAN, WHITE HOUSE": Thank you for having me.  I didn't know Mark Fuhrman was going to be here.

KELLY: What do you make of that because you're shaking your head?

HUGHLEY: I think that cops have a different perspective than us and I think it was interesting to hear Mark Fuhrman who was actually -- got in trouble for purging himself, calls somebody liars. It's ridiculous to me.

KELLY: Uh-hm. But what do you make of the fact that she had inconsistencies in her story?

HUGHLEY: I think the cop had inconsistencies, too.  

KELLY: So then you let the, you know, you let the evidence play out, and jump to racism?

HUGHLEY: It is my belief. And no matter what happens, no matter what we see, the cops are given the presumption of innocence, that saying tapes show, the suspect is doing something, that would be all the prosecution would lead. They would see the evidence is all right here. But a cop -- a presumption of innocence, that is, no matter what they say, we could see somebody getting shot to death, we don't know what happened before, we don't know what happened after.

I know this that in states, in both of these states, a lot of men in Louisiana, 47 percent of people carry guns. Men carry guns. So men having guns on them, why wasn't the first question, rather than assuming, do you have a permit for that? Those are states that you can carry a gun.  

KELLY: But you're making assumptions because we don't know what happened.

HUGHLEY: No, no.

KELLY: We have right now is her testimonial, which doesn't capture the actual event. Do we know whether she's credible? Do we know whether --

HUGHLEY: We know this. We know he had a permit to carry a gun.  

KELLY: But that doesn't answer any of the question.  

HUGHLEY: It absolutely answers the question.

KELLY: If you pulled the firearm in the officer, if he didn't disclose it, if the officer feel threatened --

HUGHLEY: Why on Earth -- here's what we do know. He had a permit to carry a gun. When you get a permit to carry a gun, they tell you exactly how to act, when the police officer pulled you over.

KELLY: What does that mean, he didn't threaten the officer.

HUGHLEY: You're willing to give them the presumption of innocence.  

KELLY: I'm not giving them presumption. Well, the law gives them the presumption of evidence. We don't know the facts. I mean, what we saw this happened with Michael Brown of Ferguson --

HUGHLEY: We have a police officer's word and a grand jury's word.  

KELLY: No, we have the Department of Justice's word.

HUGHLEY: The Department of Justice shut down Ferguson. Ferguson had to be shut down because it was so corrupt.  

KELLY: The Department of Justice found that the police there had endemic racism. They found that.


KELLY: But they also exonerated Officer Darren Wilson and they found out hands up, don't shoot was a lie, and that Michael Brown was the aggressor.


KELLY: Don't wow me. That's what they found.  

HUGHLEY: I can say wow if I want to and I'll tell you this --

KELLY: That's what they found, D.L.

HUGHLEY: I'll tell you this, they found systemic racism, right?

KELLY: Uh-huh.

HUGHLEY: So, it's unbelievable, they also found systemic racism. And we know that Darren Wilson left the department because he was racist, he had to be disbanded. And with the folks at another department. They had rightful racism.

KELLY: So, that makes him a racist.

HUGHLEY: Absolutely. And you know what, I have no problem -- I have no problem.

KELLY: Michael Brown grabbed that officer's gun and tried to shoot him in his patrol car.  

HUGHLEY: That is -- no one has proven that. No one has proven that.

KELLY: That's what Eric Holder's DOJ concluded.  

HUGHLEY: And Eric Holder's DOJ concluded that that department was so ruptured.  

KELLY: That's a dodge. I already gave -- I already conceded that, D.L.  We're talking about Michael Brown and the lie of hands up, don't shoot.

HUGHLEY: I don't dodge at all. I'm here in FOX News --

KELLY: Then let's stay on Michael Brown.  

HUGHLEY: No, no, we're talking --


KELLY: Eric Holder's DOJ --  

HUGHLEY: No, no, no!

KELLY: You're trying to get out of bounds. Let's stay inbounds. Eric Holder's DOJ found that Michael Brown --

HUGHLEY: We were talking about the young man that just got murdered in Minnesota.  

KELLY: And the rush to judgment and the assumption you know something when you don't actually know it.  

HUGHLEY: First off, what I'll tell you is this, it is not uncommon for you-all to see one thing. The only place racism doesn't exist is Fox News and the Police Department.

KELLY: Come on.  

HUGHLEY: That's the only place. That's absolutely true.

KELLY: That's insulting. You just insulted millions of people watching this channel.  

HUGHLEY: And you know what, I'm insulted by the things I hear on this network so we're even. I could care less about people that insult me on a daily basis.  

KELLY: You're making a point that -- before the insults -- the point you were started to make is true. And we can talk about that that whites perceived the situation when it comes --

HUGHLEY: I think a lot of people on this network --

KELLY: Let me finish. Let me just finish.

HUGHLEY: I've never seen a black man that doesn't deserve it.

KELLY: Could you hold the insults for a second so we could have a productive conversation? You were going to make the point that whites see certain incidents differently than blacks do. When we saw that in the O.J. Simpson case when the verdicts came down.  

HUGHLEY: Sure.  

KELLY: I'll give you that. Most reasonable people will give you that.  But you know what shuts down all reasonable dialogue is throwing out the term racism before it's been proven.  

HUGHLEY: Do you know what -- first off, I'll say this, I -- I believe that there is benefit of the doubt given to police officers that's not given to anybody else, and obviously they do a tough job. In 2006, the FBI came out with a report that said that police departments were right with white supremacists. You said it not me. So why I would not believe if I know that, I don't know a black man that hasn't had a run-in with a police officer, from the highest to the lowest. So my perception --  

KELLY: Uh-hm. You've been backed up on that by many people.  

HUGHLEY: My perception of this is based on the experience I've had, just like yours are.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

HUGHLEY: So I am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have seen a lot of things. I've lived in the city that Mark Fuhrman policed, that also had to be taken over by the federal government.  

KELLY: It just -- it's very dangerous when you get to the point that you paint an entire group with the same brush based on the add actions of --  

HUGHLEY: That's amazing thing to hear on this network. That really is.  That really is. Amazing thing on this network. The only place racism --

KELLY: Thank you for being here.  

HUGHLEY: Thank you for having me.  

KELLY: Take care.  

Also tonight, new details on a block buster New York Post report alleging that some FBI agents thinks Attorney General Loretta Lynch and Bill Clinton reached a secret deal. Governor Mike Huckabee is next on that.

Plus, reports that the agents on this case had designed secrecy documents.  Special secrecy documents.

Also, almost a dozen new polls out today point to one thing, the presidential race is tightening up. We're going to take a look at the possible game changer just ahead.


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I think your greatest accomplishment will be getting out of her e-mail scandal because that's the single greatest accomplishment to me that she's done. How she was able to get away from the lies, the deceit, the destruction of 33,000 e-mails. To me, that's the greatest accomplishment.



KELLY: Breaking tonight and reported for the first time on FOX News, new details on the intense secrecy imposed on FBI agents working the Hillary Clinton email probe. Investigators were forced to sign on nondisclosure agreements, one Republican congressman going so far as to call them gag orders on FBI agents.

Plus, new reporting from the New York Post tonight. An FBI source saying some in the agency believed that days before the FBI announcement when Attorney General Loretta Lynch met privately with former President Bill Clinton, they struck an inside deal to clear Mrs. Clinton sourcing FBI agents on that.

Chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge has the report live tonight in Washington. Catherine.  

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, an intelligence source close to the FBI investigation said, the decision not to recommend criminal charges was quote, "demoralizing blow," adding the bar was set so high by the Justice Department, that there was no way FBI agents could cross that threshold and tonight, we're learning more about how these agents were sworn to secrecy. The FBI has confirmed to a senior Republican senator that agents were asked to sign this form called a "case briefing acknowledgement," which says the disclosure of information is strictly prohibited without prior approval and those who signed are subject to lie detector test.

The Republican chairman of the powerful Senate Judiciary Committee Chuck Grassley first wrote to the FBI director in February about the issue. And in a new letter review by FOX News, Grassley is highly critical of Director Comey's recommendation against criminal charges given the evidence he made public. "In light of all of these inconsistencies, it is even more troubling that the FBI tried to gag its agents with a nondisclosure agreement on this matter in violation of whistleblower protection statutes," Grassley said, "only after I wrote to you, did you advise your FBI agents that they are still free to speak with Congress regarding waste, fraud and abuse."

Last week in his nearly five hour testimony on the hill, Director Comey said he had anticipated some of the blow-black over his recommendation, and he recommitted to full disclosure.


JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: I understand people's questions and interest.  And I'm a huge fan of transparency, I think that makes our democracy great.  


HERRIDGE: The FBI told the Senator, these disagreements are not unique but what we don't know tonight is when agents were asked to sign them and when they were told they could still speak out and go to Congress if there was a conflict -- Megyn.  

KELLY: Catherine Herridge, thank you. Joining us now, former Republican presidential candidate, Governor Mike Huckabee. Former governor of Arkansas as well. Great to see you, Governor. So, what do you make of this? I know, you've got the same contacts in the FBI.  

GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE, R-FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I worked with a lot of FBI agents during my tenure. One of whom was involved with the Whitewater investigation of the Clintons back in the '90s. And he was telling me that as he watched the Comey hearings, she was jumping out of his chair on several points. And then this whole idea of the nondisclosure agreement --

KELLY: Right.

HUCKABEE: The so-called case briefing acknowledgement. I mean, that is so euphemistic, it is a gag order. I mean, like what he's saying that Thelma and Louise actually just had a spontaneous steering malfunction. It's absurd.

KELLY: But why is it strange? I mean, a lot of people are saying, well, it's a high profile case, why wouldn't they make them to sign a nondisclosure, they're going to be reviewing classified information.  

HUCKABEE: Several things, Megyn. Number one, the FBI agents are already prohibited from talking out of school. It is in there at least three- volume manuals of dos and don'ts, mostly don'ts. Any FBI agent who has taken the oath to be an FBI agent is already covered by this.


HUCKABEE: He understands it. This was an in-your-face, according to FBI agents with whom I spoke. And the other thing that really is just amazing.  Number one, it is not the FBI's typical responsibility to decide whether charges are filed.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

HUCKABEE: They gather the information, they do the investigation, they make a referral to the U.S. attorney.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

HUCKABEE: And then the decision is made. When Comey came out and essentially said, nothing to find here, let's move along, it sent shockwaves throughout the borough. Because this is not the way things normally get handled.  

KELLY: And then he says something else. He said that they'd knew, they never looked into whether she had lied to Congress in her under-oath statements to Congress about this matter, because those statements did not jibe with what he told us were the facts. And so Congressman Chaffetz said, well, did you look into whether she lied to Congress and whether, you know, those were falsehoods and he said, no, I didn't because no one referred it to us.  

HUCKABEE: And the agent said that was one of the things that got him off his couch and screaming at the television. He said, the FBI can start an investigation because they read a newspaper article, or because an anonymous caller just calls up and says, hey, I think that Megyn Kelly has committed a felony.  

KELLY: Oh, I do not have anything in demand to prove.  

HUCKABEE: And everyone thinks she did. Yes. So, here's the point, for him to say before Congress, that oh, no, we have to have a referral, something has to come to us, that is on its face, absurd.  

KELLY: Okay. But I have to get to the last question. So, the FBI agents are doubting. Okay. The last thing.


KELLY: The suspicion that there was a deal cut between Loretta Lynch and Bill Clinton, I mean, what do you -- a deal for what? What do you make of that?

HUCKABEE: You know, when this all first happened, I thought it was Bill going out there, kind of ex-par just doing what Bill would do. You know, sort of taking it under his control. I made even the comment that I thought the biggest fireworks would be when Hillary lit Bill up that weekend. But looking at what the results turned out to be the following week when Comey decided, let's move on, you know, you have to think they talked more than just about Bill's grandkids. I just don't think that's right. Something must have been said. I don't think it was overt. But the fact that there were no witnesses and no staff. First of all, that never happens if you're an elected official.  

KELLY: Uh-hm.

HUCKABEE: It never ever happens, Megyn. I know I can't even get near you when you walk through the halls of FOX News. And you're a former governor.  It's like and I found out it was just all hair and makeup staff around you.  And I was like, you know, he looks great, I have to have access.


KELLY: I got to go, Gov.  

HUCKABEE: I need more make-up and hair staff, yes, for sure.  

KELLY: For the record, every time I ever saw Governor Huckabee in the halls of FOX News, he was such a fun, nice gentleman to talk to as you are every night.  

HUCKABEE: Thank you.  

KELLY: Great to see you.  

And you know we don't like everyone but we really like him a lot. So, as the conventions draw near, big developments in the 2016 race for the White House, as a series of new polls indicate, we could be in for a real nail- biter here. David Wohl and Richard Fowler are next on that.

Plus, Donald Trump is set to announce his running mate in less than 48 hours and we have new details tonight on who is likely to get the nod.  


TRUMP: I just want to pick somebody that is very good. I want to pick somebody who is solid, who is smart. I'm not looking for an attack dog.


KELLY: Breaking tonight with just fire five days to go until the Republican National Convention gets underway, Donald Trump is receiving some welcome news. In the form of a series of polls, that show an increasingly tight race with Hillary Clinton. A Marist poll shows Mrs. Clinton's lead has withered to just three percentage points now, 42 to 39 and that is the first time in a year that this poll has shown Mrs. Clinton below the 50 percent mark. What's more interesting is how some of these polling groups are describing this shift, and why.

Joining us now with more, Attorney David Wohl, a Trump supporter, and radio talk show host Richard Fowler, a senior fellow on the New Leaders Council.  I haven't heard that one yet, Richard. That sounds important. We'll get to that.  

RICHARD FOWLER, SENIOR FELLOW, NEW LEADERS COUNCIL: It's not that important. Good to be here.  

KELLY: New Leader. Okay. So, it's good to see you. So it's -- you tell me, Richard, is pretty much bad news for her across the board today in this polling.  

FOWLER: Well, I mean, obviously it shows that that race is definitely tightening, there's no question about that, right? But I think it's too early to look at national polls, not to mention the fact that both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are banking on unlikely voters turning out to vote for them, right. Donald Trump is banking on all those (ph) voters.

KELLY: But wait, before you move to that point, on your point, they did look at specific polls. In Quinnipiac, Florida, Trump's now at 42 to Clinton's 39 and she had the lead on June 21st. In Ohio, they're tied 41 to 41. In Pennsylvania, Trump has 43, Clinton has 41 before she was in the lead so they did look at specific states.

FOWLER: Yes, and I think that's great. Let's talk about Florida for just a second. So what we see in Florida polls over and over again is you see these crazy spikes. In 2010, on the race that I worked on the governor's race, that Charlie Crist versus Rick Scott race, what you saw was days before the election, Charlie Crist is up five, up six, up seven but end up losing by almost three or four points, which shows because the voters are so unlikely and you're not sure who's going to turnout, especially in Florida because of who they're polling.

It's really hard to determine how it's going to finally pan itself out, which (inaudible) why even in the state polls, it's too early to look at these numbers. And the argument that David's going to make is well, it's all about the e-mail scandal.

KELLY: Just let him make it. Hold on.


KELLY: You got your air time. David gets to say his stuff. Go ahead, David.

DAVID WOHL, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Megyn, there's tectonic shift in those swing states, Megyn, when you talk about Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, I mean that is extraordinary what Trump has done at this point and it's a blowback, Megyn, a major blowback to the e-mail scandal. There's no question about it. Sixty-six percent of people find her untrustworthy, 56 percent of want her prosecuted and now her unfavorable, for the first time Megyn, are exceeding Mr. Trump's. She's in big trouble, there's no doubt about it, and as far as prosecution...  

KELLY: No, they aren't.  ...look for that perjury prosecution, it's going to happen.

KELLY: They're close but they're not exceeding. In the Marist poll, 64 percent see him unfavorably, 60 percent see her that way. I mean, he's got a 4 point edge on her on unfavorable, but its close.

FOWLER: Quinnipiac it's reversed.

KELLY: OK so, I mean, the voters, they don't love the candidates. No offense to you guys. They don't love these candidates. But Richard...

FOWLER: That's fair.

KELLY: David raises a good point, that the FBI primary, if you will, they may have exonerated her legally. It didn't exonerate her but chose not to charge, but man, the voters get it. They realized -- they heard what Comey said in the first half of his remarks that day that she misled over, and over, and over again, the American people.

FOWLER: And they've gotten it all along Megyn. Those numbers are already baked in the poll, which is why Bernie sanders did so well throughout the primary.

KELLY: Then why is she following?

FOWLER: None of these -- none of these polls take into effect that Bernie Sanders endorsed her. The Quinnipiac poll in particular, the date that it went to was the 11th.


KELLY: So why she fought? If you're saying it's not her honesty, then why did is she going down Richard?

WOHL: Bernie's people are either going to...

FOWLER: She went down -- I'm saying this because -- where David is right, this is a tectonic shift. This is because the race is getting tighter. You're going to the convention and you see this all the time. It's standard polling (ph).

WOHL: And guess what...

KELLY: But David, they're getting tighter for a reason and that reason appears to be -- you tell me, the FBI primary and perhaps what we've seen in the country with respect to police and you know, this division and the candidates are dividing themselves on certain points, as well.

WOHL: And Megyn, Bernie's people are either going to stay home or they're going to go with Mr. Trump.

FOWLER: That's not true.

WOHL: Either way, you've got huge damage to Hillary Clinton's chances. It's enormous, and I've got to say, Megyn, someone who's represented people like Hillary Clinton for 27 years in these type of criminal cases, the perjury case has already been investigated. It's ready to go. It can be turned way over to Ms. Lynch tomorrow. She could file this case tomorrow, no questions asked. If she doesn't,, that means the Fifth again.

KELLY: OK, but I want to see this Richard. So, no question it's been a bad week for Hillary when it comes to the polling, really bad. And it's probably not the way she wants to go into, you know, the next couple of weeks with the conventions. A little hobbled. But you tell me whether she emerges from this, like this is her chance -- that's the lowest week since the FBI primary is now over and now she resurrects herself.

FOWLER: Well, I think that's exactly what you're going to see the Clinton campaign begin to do. Hillary couldn't set herself a couple of weeks back. She knows she has to regain the trust of the people. She said that at the Rainbow PUSH Convention, "I have to regain the trust of the people." She's going to have to do that.

She's committed to doing that. But with that being said, people vote for a candidate, not against a candidate. So, Donald Trump in this convention next week is really going to have to tease out what he's going to do for the American people instead of just saying crooked Hillary on repeat.

KELLY: All right.

FOWLER: That's not an answer.

KELLY: We've got Dana Perino and Chris Stirewalt coming up. We've got a bunch of thoughts on that. Great to see you both.

FOWLER: Thank you, Megyn.

KELLY: Breaking tonight, Donald Trump just announced he will reveal his vice presidential pick at 11:00 a.m. Friday morning. Got to turn on Fox News, Bill and Martha, maybe they're going to have a leak. Maybe they're going to have it for you. If not, Jenna and John are going to bust in the Fox News alert, they're going to bong in and they're going to tell you supposedly it's one of three men.

So, now we know the day and we know the time. And Chris Stirewalt, and Dana Perino are ahead on why Trump's choice could be the most impactful decision yet on the road to the White House. Or not, it could have not impact whatsoever. So, we'll talk about that. And we may be just days from Cleveland, but tomorrow could be critical for those Republicans still -- still trying to stop Trump. We'll show you why when we come back.


SEAN SPICER, RNC CHIEF STRATEGIST: This is something that I think has become a media fascination and exists only in the Twitter universe because it really lacks you know, one, a candidate, two, any organization, three, any strategy.



KELLY: Breaking tonight, presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump just announced he will reveal his choice for his running mate on Friday morning at 11:00 a.m. Set your DVR right now. America's newsroom, happening now. If you don't already have them on DVR, you put them on right now so you don't miss the beginning, the lead up. What if he goes early? Trump himself says he is down to no more than four choices but really the three guys here he says.

Governor Mike Pence, Newt Gingrich, Governor Chris Christie. All in serious contention for the number two spot on the ticket. Campaign (ph) Carl Cameron, our chief political correspondent is live in Indianapolis where Mr. Trump had a busy day, Carl?

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, he basically turned this into his campaign headquarters outside of Manhattan and had all kinds of candidates he was doing business with today for the vice presidential pick. The Trump family and the Pence family started the morning with breakfast, and of course they campaigned together last night. Trump ended up spending the night here because of some undescribed mechanical problems with the plane and the hotel he was staying at, the Conrad downtown became just a buzz of activity.

Newt Gingrich came to Indianapolis and had a meeting. When he got back to Washington, Gingrich told associates that he learned during his meeting with Trump or shortly thereafter that he was one of two finalists with Pence. So, you've got Pence and Newt Gingrich both assuming that they are finalists for this. Chris Christie, who's been working for the transition team and was the first former rival to endorse Trump.

The Trump and Christie families had been friends for a decade and he's got an inside track because of that, but he seems to have been sort of falling to the wayside in the last couple of days. And then the last one is Jeff Sessions, the Alabama Senator who was the first senator to endorse Trump and helped him write his immigration plan. And insiders say he's more inclined to be put in an advisory position because he really does sort of tend to have a calming effect on Trump during some of their discussions and have some different perspective.

Lastly, at the Conrad Hotel, Megyn, there were a couple buses outside and there was another person there. Now, I'm not saying anything about this, but it was goth rocker Marilyn Monroe and an awful lot of kids were wondering who the bigger star was, and an awful lot of adults were wondering who the other celebrity there and he's certainly not on the shortlist, Megyn.

KELLY: Marilyn Manson, right?


KELLY: Not that Marilyn Monroe.


CAMERON: Shows what I know about goth rock, right. Yeah, Marilyn Manson, sorry.

KELLY: OK, Carl, great to see you. Can you imagine Trump and Marilyn Manson?


KELLY: OK, so our political panel is joining me now on Trump's choice. Chris Stirewalt, our Fox News digital politics editor and Dana Perino, co- host of "The Five" and former White House press secretary under President George W. Bush, good to see you both. So, Marilyn Manson, Stirewalt -- I understand you took a position earlier today that there is no one who could overshadow Donald Trump. Marilyn Manson. You want to walk that back a little?

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: No, I think -- look, I think that even -- my comparison was that even Evel Knievil jumping in motorcycle over the crowd during the announcement does not overshadow Trump. I do not think that Marilyn Manson -- because the goth, it's the black nails and he got the white make up. This is not right. You've got to be loud, baby. You've got to be loud.

KELLY: I can't take the more orange (ph).


KELLY: But seriously, what do we think? I'll ask you, Dana. Seriously.

DANA PERINO, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: First of all, you should promise to me.

KELLY: Yeah, I know seriousness (ph).

PERINO: I know Stirewalt will be down here in a minute.  (LAUGHTER)

KELLY: Newt Gingrich saying it's down to me and Pence. That's breaking news.

PERINO: I was surprised by that when Carl Cameron said that because -- I mean, obviously Newt Gingrich is his own guy. He's been in politics for a long time and I think it really takes a lot of chutzpah to come back and say, yeah, it's now between me and the other guy.

KELLY: Because Trump has not revealed that.

PERINO: He's being quiet.

KELLY: Trump has not revealed that.

PERINO: I mean unless Trump asked him to do that, which would add to the intrigue, but I kind of find that hard to believe.

KELLY: Why would Trump go on Fox News with Bret Baier tonight at 6:00 and say, "In my head I had it down to two" but not reveal the two. And then Newt come out and say, "It's me. It's me. It's me and Pence?

PERINO: It's actually interesting. So, let's just say Donald Trump is tonight (ph), my gosh, they're equal in my mind. Does that bother him that he might -- Newt Gingrich might over step the bounds? Or did he ask for -- or does he not care?

KELLY: All right, so...

PERINO: As long as everybody is talking about it, it's good.

KELLY: You know, what do you think is the wisdom of that? Let's just talk about Newt and Pence as between those two guys, Chris?

STIREWALT: Well, it's hard to think that Mike Pence does anything for Donald Trump other than a former Republican brand that's badly damaged. He doesn't add anything in particular, and because of what happened, there was a Religious Liberty ill in Indiana. Pence muffed it both ways, made everybody unhappy, so I don't think he gets Trump what the Trump family thinks that he does, which is the support of Cruz voters and people like that.

I don't think he gets that. I do think though that Gingrich, high risk. That is a -- talk about Evel Knievil on the bike over the crowd. It is high risk. You might not make it. Newt Gingrich could blow up a campaign.

KELLY: Such as Newt, like Evel.


STIREWALT: In the white jumpsuit -- white jumpsuit, it could be awesome. But he does bring you something, which is reinforces Trump's brand, as a silo breaker, as a disruptor, as somebody who is thinking way outside the box sometimes.

KELLY: Fighter.

PERINO: Way outside Washington.

STIREWALT: So, it's something that reinforces the brand.

KELLY: Go ahead. Oh, really, outside Washington? She's being sarcastic.

PERINO: Yeah, now you can be serious and I'll take the other role.


PERINO: I also agree that Newt Gingrich would be good, but I'm going to go out on a limb. I think that Chris Christie is still solidly in contention.

KELLY: You do?

PERINO: I do, because remember...


PERINO: I can't wait to see you Friday night and then you'll have to say, wow, Dana, you were right.

KELLY: What does he gain him?

PERINO: What do the others -- I think that he, well, Donald Trump said he wants an attack dog, somebody who would get into debates, somebody a little bit younger, Donald Trump -- I'm sorry -- Chris Christie fits all of those. He is a loyal guy. He knows the law. I mean, I just think that he would be willing to go after Hillary Clinton, and that Newt Gingrich -- between the two of them, I think it's a toss-up.

KELLY: It's got a little, you know, how do you put it -- baggage, Chris.

PERINO: Who doesn't though?

STIREWALT: Yeah, wouldn't you want one...

KELLY: Somebody, I have a guy who's somebody without any.

STIREWALT: ...wouldn't you want one of the investigations into his administration to be cleared? Wouldn't you want at least one of the investigations in the administration cleared before you pick somebody for running mate? That's not good.

KELLY: Bridgegate, is that what you're talking about?

PERINO: I think he's already weathered (ph) that.

STIREWALT: Well, there's Bridgegate and then with the...

PERINO: And I don't think any Republican that would vote for on a Republican decision is going to worry about Bridgegate.

KELLY: but wait, let me ask you this...

STIREWALT: It's not that they worry about it, (inaudible) it explodes.

KELLY: I'm over Christie, I'm over that. Any chance -- this is Trump -- so, any chance of a surprise, you know?


KELLY: Who's the dark horse that potentially, you know, might fly in? Who?

PERINO: Oh, who. Marilyn Manson?

KELLY: Come on, seriously. Who could it be? Do you have any guesses?


STIREWALT: I still think Giuliani is a good choice. I still think a Democrat is a good choice. I think for Trump creating all this drama, I'm going to give Christie the rose, or is it Sessions or who's going to come down here in the front and who's the real bachelor? I think it would be great from a drama point of view to change it all up at the end with a stunning season finale.

KELLY: It sounds like Trump, doesn't it? It sounds like him.

PERINO: And remember, somebody you haven't heard talk about recently is Mary Fallon, the governor of Oklahoma. I guess if I had to pick somebody out of thin air, I would say her.

KELLY: Good, thank you for trying. OK, great to see you both.


KELLY: Oh, wait -- oh wait. Dana Perino is going on a bus trip with the rest of the pie. They're going on a bus trip to Cleveland, all of them on the bus together. And they're going to sleep in sleeping bags right nest to each other like little peas in a pod. Like little puppies, right?

PERINO: It's a cruise. No.


PERINO: But we're going to be on the bus and we're going to be on your show on Friday night. And there's the bus. I mean it's subtle, don't you think?

(LAUGHTER) KELLY: I hope you pass a lot of fans in the show and not the opposite.

PERINO: We do, too.

KELLY: They'll bring on the eggs.

PERINO: Looking forward to it, thank you.

KELLY: All right, so you'll see more of that on Friday night, can't wait. Up next, as Trump get set to make a decision on his running mate, why are people still talking about a revolt on the convention floor? That's our question for James Rosen who's live in Cleveland, next. James?

JAMES ROSEN, FOX NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, good evening. That's right. First they call themselves, #nevertrump, then it became #dumptrump, now it' it's #freethedelegates. After the break, we'll examine if their chances of succeeding is stronger than my chances of driving "The Five's" campaign bus.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the world headquarters of Fox News, it's "The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly.

KELLY: Well, the next 24 hours could be critical for the GOP. The RNC rules committee is meeting tomorrow to discuss next week's convention as well as the movement to free Republican delegates to vote for whomever they want, not to be bound to what the voters told them.

And with reports of renewed interest in this movement just days before the folks are supposed to rally behind a nominee, a little last-minute chaos may not be out of the cards. Chief Washington Correspondent James Rosen is live in Cleveland with more. James?

ROSEN: Megyn, good evening. One delegate here in Cleveland who was not opposed to Donald Trump told me that the party insiders who are whipping for Donald Trump are a bit worried that this Dump Trump Movement might at least make it to the convention floor. The RNC leadership says this is all a media confection -- that Donald Trump won the nomination fair and square and will be the party's nominee.

At tomorrow's session of the rules committee, the Dump Trump forces will try to secure at least 28 votes, one quarter of the committee's members, to change the rules to allow delegates to unbind from the candidate they are pledged to support. If that happens, then the full convention would have to vote on that option. A leader of this movement, a delegate from Colorado, told Fox News she has the votes on the rules committee and she explained why she's doing this.


KENDALL UNRUH, RNC DELEGATE: We know that Donald Trump -- the brand of Donald Trump is going to destroy our party. It's going to destroy our brand and he's not going to win the election. And he's not going to get elected. We're not going to have the Supreme Court justices, because we're losing the Congress, we're losing the House and the Senate, and the polling has shown that.


ROSEN: With the Republicans having ironed out their platform yesterday, the party's chief strategist predicted to Fox News that not much will come of this Free the Delegates movement.


SEAN SPICER, RNC CHIEF STRATEGIST: This is something that I think has become a media fascination and exists only in the Twitter universe, because it really lacks, you know, one, a candidate, two, any organization, three, any strategy.


ROSEN: And that really is the key question here, even if the Dump Trump forces were to succeed, Megyn, who exactly is standing in the wings waiting to take Donald Trump's place? It's not clear who that would be.

KELLY: Were they looking you up and down today or is it really, you know, you're a reasonable man, very well liked.

ROSEN: Megyn, I can assure you I do get looked up and down during my travels here in Cleveland, but probably not by the delegates.


KELLY: Hey, I have to ask you. When you were talking to the folks about this, was there any movement away from this push given all the polling we saw come out today that showed a tightening race and Trump taking the lead in a couple of these key states?

ROSEN: I think amongst the delegates and certainly at the RNC, there's been a fatigue with the whole process and especially with this effort to derail Donald Trump for several months now. I was hearing that back in April when I was covering the RNC spring meeting in Hollywood, Florida. They want to get on with the business of having their nominee and preparing for the general election and taking on Hillary Clinton.

KELLY: So, when I come out to Cleveland -- I'll be there live all next week as most of Fox News will be -- I would like you to walk next to me wearing that exact outfit, I'm going to wear this outfit and people are going to be like, "aren't they so adorable. They even dress..." Look how adorable we are. We look like we belong on the top of a cake together, James.

ROSEN: You know, Megyn, I knew if I were patient that this day would one day come, and I look forward to that stroll with you.


KELLY: Good-bye.

ROSEN: And I can assure you that it will play out exactly as you just described.

KELLY: See why we love him? Bye, James. So as I mentioned, yours truly, along with the show, "The Kelly File" will be live in Cleveland all next week for the Republican National Convention. We've only been waiting for like three years, right? Doesn't it feel like this race has, you know, going on that long? I'm going to be joined by some special guests for the history making week as Donald Trump will become the official Republican presidential candidate, unless that group gets its way. It starts on Monday.


KELLY: So, for those of you who missed the top of the show and my interview with DL Hughley, we have posted it on Love to get your thoughts on Twitter as well, @megynkelly. Thanks for watching. See you tomorrow at 9:00.

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